Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Hidden Cost of Fighting the Wrong Battles (a Q&A)

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The Hidden Cost of Fighting the Wrong Battles (a Q&A) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: Every Tuesday on the Happy Families podcast, we answer your
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  Speaker 1: tricky questions. Today, one that sent me very deep into
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  Speaker 1: a rabbit hole of what evidence is there and what
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  Speaker 1: evidence isn't there for how our kids are using their
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  Speaker 1: headphones and Bluetooth and radiation. And I'm not that kind
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  Speaker 1: of doctor, so this was fascinating. But if your kids
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  Speaker 1: are using headphones, if your kids are on screens, if
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  Speaker 1: your kids do any Bluetooth-y, radiation, Wi-Fi-y sort of stuff,
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  Speaker 1: then you will want to hear Rose from Brisbane's question today.
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  Speaker 1: It's coming up next. Stay with us. G'day, this is
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast today. What do you do when
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  Speaker 1: your child will not listen to reason and you are
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  Speaker 1: trying to be so reasonable about having some limits around
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  Speaker 1: their use of headphones because you are concerned that their
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  Speaker 1: brain is going to be fried? Welcome to the Happy
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  Speaker 1: Families podcast where you get real parenting solutions every single day.
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  Speaker 1: We are Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. That's thanks to you.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. My name's Dr. Justin Coulson. I'm here
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  Speaker 1: with Mrs. Happy Families, my wife, Kylie. And every Tuesday
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  Speaker 1: on the Happy Families pod, we answer your tricky questions.
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  Speaker 1: Family and relationships and discipline and screens and sleep and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: fussy eating and you name it. We'll talk about anything. Finance,
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  Speaker 1: pocket money. We're pretty much happy to answer your questions.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to submit a tricky question, we've got
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: a super simple system at happyfamilies.com.au. You literally just scroll
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: down to the bit where it says, press record. You
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  Speaker 1: click the button and start talking just like Rose from Brisbane.
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  Speaker 2: Hi, Justin and Kylie. Rose here from Brisbane. Love your podcast.
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  Speaker 2: I really like your thoughts regarding adolescent significant use of
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  Speaker 2: Bluetooth devices from gaming headsets, speaker boxes, and worse, earpods.
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  Speaker 2: I'm concerned it's frying my 15-year-old son's brain with research
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  Speaker 2: flagging high levels of radiation going direct to the brain.
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  Speaker 2: I have tried collaborative problem solving, negotiating, modelling, replacements and
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  Speaker 2: having open discussions on what research suggests. His response, I
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  Speaker 2: don't care what research says, I'll be fine. He pushes
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  Speaker 2: the boundary of leaving them at home, refuses to wear
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  Speaker 2: corded headphones, but respects the boundary of putting his phone
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  Speaker 2: away by 8pm, 11pm weekends. For context, he's a loving,
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  Speaker 2: respectful teenager, is active, and has great empathy, but simply
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  Speaker 2: sees this as an unnecessary worry. Is he right or
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  Speaker 2: is my concern valid?
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  Speaker 1: Oh, this is so much fun.
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  Speaker 3: I was just thinking.
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  Speaker 1: I've just written a book about teenage boys and I
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  Speaker 1: got this question. I was like, oh, yeah, we're going
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  Speaker 1: to have some. This is a great one. I love
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  Speaker 1: this one from Rose. What were you just thinking?
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  Speaker 3: Just that feeling of invincibility that most youth experience is.
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  Speaker 1: Especially teenage boys. Especially teenage boys.
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  Speaker 3: It will never happen to me.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So there's so many things that I want to
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  Speaker 1: talk about here. This is a really fun question. The
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  Speaker 1: first thing that came to mind as I listened to
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  Speaker 1: what Rose was saying was, I don't care. I'll be fine.
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  Speaker 1: If there is ever a statement from a teenage boy
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  Speaker 1: that just captures the very heart of what we're up against, it's,
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  Speaker 1: I don't care. I'll be fine. I want you to
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  Speaker 1: be careful when you go to the party. I don't care.
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  Speaker 1: I'll be fine. I want you to be careful when
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  Speaker 1: you go surfing or down to the skate park. I
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  Speaker 1: don't care, mum. I'll be fine. I'm really worried about this.
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  Speaker 1: I don't care.
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  Speaker 3: I'll be fine.
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  Speaker 1: Take a jumper.
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  Speaker 3: You might get caught.
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  Speaker 1: I don't care. I'll be fine. This is just quintessential
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  Speaker 1: teenage boy responding. I want to talk about the developmental
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  Speaker 1: psychology realities around this. This is interesting. Just such a
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  Speaker 1: sweet spot for where we find so much tension and conflict.
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  Speaker 1: Sweet spot. That's probably the wrong word because there's nothing
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  Speaker 1: sweet about it. And you can hear Rose's frustration. She's like,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm the mom and I know stuff and he's
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  Speaker 1: not listening to me. And we all struggle with this
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  Speaker 1: as parents. When you are a teenager and somebody talks
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  Speaker 1: to you, especially a teenage boy. So, sorry, quick step back.
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  Speaker 1: We know that teenage boys are much, much lower on
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  Speaker 1: impulse control. and much, much higher on sensation-seeking than teenage
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  Speaker 1: girls their age. In fact, at every age, boys seek
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  Speaker 1: sensations more than girls, and at every age, boys' impulse
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  Speaker 1: control is poorer than girls. So much so that Lawrence Steinberg,
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  Speaker 1: the world's leading adolescence researcher, did a study in, I
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  Speaker 1: think it was 2015, and found that the average 24-year-old
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  Speaker 1: boy has the same level of impulse control as the
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  Speaker 1: average 10-year-old girl. So that's just a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: developmental psychology background there. I'm so glad you think that's funny.
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  Speaker 1: I had fun writing about that in my book. But
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  Speaker 1: let's bring this, because with the whole Bluetooth and headphone thing,
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  Speaker 1: we're not really talking about sensation seeking and impulse control,
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  Speaker 1: but we are talking about this pigheadedness and I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to do it my way and I don't care, I'll
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  Speaker 1: be fine, which kind of, it's aligned with that mentality.
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  Speaker 1: And here's what's actually going on. teenagers are really, really,
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  Speaker 1: really bad at understanding the future. Humans generally are bad
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  Speaker 1: at understanding the future. Like even when you talk to
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  Speaker 1: a 40 or a 50 year old and you talk
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  Speaker 1: about the future, it can be hard. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: what's going to make me happy in 10 years time.
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  Speaker 1: We were recently having a conversation with a finance guy
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  Speaker 1: about our retirement and they were like, well, how do
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  Speaker 1: you want to live? What do you want your life
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  Speaker 1: to look like? What's going to make you happy in retirement?
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: I want. Do I want to be close to the kids?
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  Speaker 1: I think so. Do I want to be near the beach?
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  Speaker 3: Maybe.
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  Speaker 1: How often do I want to travel? I don't know. Like,
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  Speaker 1: do I want to return? So we're really bad at
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  Speaker 1: predicting the future, but teenagers are worse at it than
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  Speaker 1: almost anybody. So when you say to a teenager, what's
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  Speaker 1: it going to be like when you're 50 and you
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  Speaker 1: can't hear anything? You know what they think?
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  Speaker 3: It's not going to happen.
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  Speaker 1: Well, number one, it's not going to happen. But number two,
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  Speaker 1: what's 50? Yeah. Like, 50, that's you. I'm never going
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  Speaker 1: to be as old as you. You are so old.
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  Speaker 3: So old.
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  Speaker 1: I turned 50 last year and I still remember when
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  Speaker 1: my dad turned 50 and I was just thinking, oh
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  Speaker 1: my goodness, I cannot comprehend being that age. And now
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  Speaker 1: I'm there and I feel young and vibrant and vital.
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  Speaker 3: I was going to say, do you feel like that?
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  Speaker 1: Not even awesome, but that's a different conversation. That's beside
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  Speaker 1: the point. The main point here is that Kids can't comprehend.
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  Speaker 1: Teenagers are terrible, especially teenage boys, terrible at comprehending the future.
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  Speaker 1: The future to them is this weekend, if you're lucky.
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  Speaker 1: What do you want to do this weekend?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: It's so far away. I can't imagine. Talking to a
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  Speaker 1: 14-year-old or a 15-year-old about what they want to do
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  Speaker 1: when they finish school or being 24 and having finished
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  Speaker 1: university or a trade and being– Like 24? Oh my goodness.
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  Speaker 3: Mind-blowing.
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  Speaker 1: Can't wrap our head around that. 24 is old when you're.
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  Speaker 3: 14 or 15. Imagine when you're married and you've got children.
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  Speaker 1: They just can't do it. So Rose, the first thing
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  Speaker 1: that I really want to emphasize is this.
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  Speaker 3: Your son's normal?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Pretty much. There are two other things that I
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  Speaker 1: just want to highlight. None of his friends are wearing
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  Speaker 1: headphones with cords. He feels like if he wears a
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  Speaker 1: headphone set with cords, he's going to look like a loser.
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  Speaker 1: And fundamentally at this age, the promise of the reward
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  Speaker 1: in life vastly outweighs any potential risk. He will downplay risk.
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  Speaker 1: He doesn't care. He'll be fine because it's much more
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  Speaker 1: rewarding to do things his way. And you can do
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  Speaker 1: all your collaborative problem solving. You can do all of
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  Speaker 1: your three E's, explore, explain, empower, all those kinds of things.
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  Speaker 1: But ultimately, if he doesn't identify the value in what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying, he's never going to endorse it. And therefore,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to have conflict conflict, conflict.
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  Speaker 3: Which leads into kind of, I guess, where I land
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  Speaker 3: with this. He's 15. You literally have three more years
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  Speaker 3: before he's a fully fledged adult.
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  Speaker 1: Sorry, reality check, Rose, just in case you weren't sure yet,
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  Speaker 1: three years or less, because he's already 15, two and
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  Speaker 1: a half years, and he's an adult.
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  Speaker 3: And at this stage of his life, he is actually
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  Speaker 3: starting to make some important decisions for himself.
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  Speaker 1: There's a level.
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  Speaker 3: Of independence that he hasn't experienced before. And so as
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  Speaker 3: we've experienced with each of our girls as they get
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  Speaker 3: to this stage, there is this real tension as a
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  Speaker 3: parent between I'm the parent and I know best and
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  Speaker 3: actually you're becoming your own person and I actually need
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  Speaker 3: to take a step back and let you make some decisions.
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  Speaker 1: What you're saying is pick your battles.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. So ultimately, the most important thing, no matter what's
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  Speaker 3: going on in your life, is the relationship that you
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  Speaker 3: share with your child. And if we're so caught up
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  Speaker 3: in being right about, in this case, radiation and headphones,
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  Speaker 3: we lose valuable opportunities to connect with our child.
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  Speaker 1: Rupturing the relationship is probably the most harmful thing that
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  Speaker 1: you can do, especially at this age. And I would
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  Speaker 1: argue that This is just a battle that's not worth fighting.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to step into what I was able to
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  Speaker 1: find in my deep dive right after the break. Plus,
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  Speaker 1: one more really important insight that jumped out at me
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  Speaker 1: as I listened to Rose's message that I think is
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  Speaker 1: really the very core of my response to this one.
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  Speaker 1: We're back. This is the Happy Families podcast. Thank you
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  Speaker 1: so much for choosing to be with us. If you
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: find the podcast helpful, we'd love for you to share
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: it with your friends. More listeners means we get to
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  Speaker 1: influence and help more families, like Rose from Brisbane, who's saying,
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  Speaker 1: what do I do about my 15-year-old who, he's just
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  Speaker 1: not listening, probably because he's got headphones in and they're
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  Speaker 1: turned up too loud and they're noise-cancelling headphones. Rose, here's
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  Speaker 1: some bad news for you. I want to validate your concern.
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  Speaker 1: I want to tell you you're right. And I want
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  Speaker 1: to tell you that as the adult in the room,
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  Speaker 1: you've got it all right. I did a lot of
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  Speaker 1: looking around and basically what I found is in terms
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  Speaker 1: of Bluetooth radiation frying your son's brain, based on the
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  Speaker 1: weight of peer-reviewed evidence right now, while there are some,
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  Speaker 1: and I do need to acknowledge there are some studies
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  Speaker 1: that raise concerns, I would say the overwhelming weight of
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  Speaker 1: evidence does not support the concern that Bluetooth radiation is
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  Speaker 1: frying your son's brain. I personally I used to worry
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  Speaker 1: about that so much so that I bought a couple
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  Speaker 1: of pairs of corded headphones over the last few years.
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  Speaker 1: But I've stopped using them because they're just annoying. They're
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  Speaker 1: not practical. And the evidence, except on a few podcasts
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  Speaker 1: where you get a few people who have just got
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  Speaker 1: big voices and they want to tell everybody about it.
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  Speaker 1: The picture is not completely settled. I will definitely say that.
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  Speaker 1: I think there are still more questions around it. And
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  Speaker 1: I understand the concern and caution there. But the World
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  Speaker 1: Health Organization did a 2023 systematic review and concluded that
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  Speaker 1: there is no conclusive evidence at all linking exposure from
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  Speaker 1: consumer devices to either neurological or cognitive disease. They did
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  Speaker 1: note that there's not a lot of evidence on longitudinal effects,
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  Speaker 1: especially among younger populations, because they haven't been around for
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  Speaker 1: a long time. But overwhelmingly, the bottom line is your concern, Rose,
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  Speaker 1: on this is not irrational, given the volume of online
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  Speaker 1: content about this, but the peer-reviewed research doesn't support this
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  Speaker 1: idea that your child is going to have any brain
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  Speaker 1: frying as a result of being on Bluetooth. I think
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  Speaker 1: that your son's going to be fine. My bigger concern,
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  Speaker 1: the one thing that I did find a lot of
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  Speaker 1: evidence for, is that you shouldn't be worried about radiation,
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  Speaker 1: you should be worried about volume. So people, kids listen
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  Speaker 1: to their headphones way too loud. And, uh, there was a, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: and you're living proof that that's a problem.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I was a radio announcer for the first decade of
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  Speaker 1: my working life. And before that, I used to listen
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  Speaker 1: to music very loud as a kid as well. And, um,
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  Speaker 1: now 50 years old and my hearing is not quite
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  Speaker 1: where it needs to be. I did have my hearing
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  Speaker 1: tested a few years ago and the guy just said
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  Speaker 1: that you needed to talk louder. There was nothing that
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  Speaker 1: mattered with my hearing, which I thought was fabulous. Just
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  Speaker 1: one piece of evidence.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that he was just on your side.
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  Speaker 1: One piece of evidence.
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  Speaker 3: Clearly was not reading the evidence in front of him.
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  Speaker 1: Useful heroes. And I think that your son will actually
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  Speaker 1: listen to this. There was a data analysis published in
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  Speaker 1: BMJ Global Health. It concluded that more than a billion
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  Speaker 1: teens and young people are potentially at risk of hearing
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  Speaker 1: loss due to their use of headphones, earbuds, and attendants
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  Speaker 1: at loud music venues. The study found that unsafe listening
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  Speaker 1: practices are highly prevalent worldwide, with the global number of
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  Speaker 1: young people at risk of hearing loss estimated 20%. to
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  Speaker 1: be between $ 670 million and $ 1. 35 billion. So it might
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  Speaker 1: be worth having a conversation with your son. Since he
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  Speaker 1: seems to be empathic and considerate and active and all
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  Speaker 1: those things that you highlighted, I'd be inclined to say, hey,
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  Speaker 1: you know what, kiddo? This is a fight that I'm
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  Speaker 1: clearly not going to win. We've been over this again
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  Speaker 1: and again and again. It's a source of tension between us,
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  Speaker 1: and I just don't want the tension. And while I'm
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  Speaker 1: still nervous about it, and I think the evidence is
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  Speaker 1: not clear-cut, I get that I'm not going to win
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  Speaker 1: this fight. But... I have a compromise for you. Could
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  Speaker 1: you just keep the volume low? And I reckon if
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  Speaker 1: you were to talk to him about hearing loss and
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  Speaker 1: the problems with having music too loud and just tell
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  Speaker 1: him to Google around or do some chat GPT on that,
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  Speaker 1: he'll find some stuff and he'll probably see the value
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  Speaker 1: in that request. He'll identify that it's useful. He'll endorse
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  Speaker 1: it and he'll get on board. I just think, gosh,
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  Speaker 1: Take the win, Rose. At the risk of sounding a
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  Speaker 1: little bit dismissive, I promise you I don't mean to.
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  Speaker 1: Take the win. It sounds like he's just a great kid.
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  Speaker 1: He's engaging with you. He's having the conversations. He's hearing
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  Speaker 1: what you're saying.
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  Speaker 3: He puts his phone away at 8 o'clock.
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  Speaker 1: He's putting his phone away. Take the win. Anyway, we
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: hope that's been a helpful conversation and thank you so
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: much for sending us your question. We love questions about
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: literally any topic at all. We'll tackle it. We're up
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: for it. Send your tricky questions via voice note to
• 13:53
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• 13:58
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• 14:03
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• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Hammonds provides all of our research admin and additional support.
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  Speaker 1: And if you'd like more info to make your family happier,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Visit happyfamilies.com.au. See you tomorrow.