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Beethoven's Symphony No. 3 "Eroica", Rejecting Napoleon and Charting a New Path! · Classical Breakdown

• 0:00
  I'm John Panther and this is classical Breakdown from Weta Classical in Washington.
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  We are your guide to classical music.
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  In this episode I'm joined by Weta Classical Evan Keeley , and we're exploring a symphony that marks a pivotal moment in music history.
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  Beethoven's Symphony No.
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  Three Eroica.
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  And it came after a pivotal moment in his life , too.
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  So we show you how Beethoven went in a new direction.
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  What sets this symphony apart , how the audience reacted , what to listen for , the famous dedication to Napoleon Bonaparte , and more.
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  Welcome back Evan.
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  It's great to have you here for season seven.
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  Another season of exploring this music , these composers and just , well , everything about this kind of music.
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  Thanks , John.
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  Always great to be on Classical Breakdown and congratulations to you , season seven.
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  What I mean , it's hard to believe tastic.
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  Fantastic.
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  Good work.
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  It's gone by in a in a flash.
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  So let's start off with a review from Apple Podcasts.
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  What do we have ? Evan , this is a five star review from Mike B , who says a must listen pod for any music fan.
• 1:09
  Simply the best podcast about classical music.
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  The detail and explanations are simple and clear , even for a non-musical person like me.
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  I love classical music , and the insights and background have made me develop even greater affection for some of my favorite composers and pieces , while introducing me to new composers and musicians.
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  Wow.
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  Mike B thank you.
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  I mean , this is great , great support and encouragement from one of our podcast listeners.
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  Yes.
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  Thank you , Mike , and hopefully your description of our detail and explanations as simple and clear won't be doing too much heavy lifting in this episode because this is a this is a big one.
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  This is Beethoven's Symphony number three , which we know has Eroica , and it has the subtitle Sinfonia Eroica composed Composer , professor.
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  Souvenir di un Gran Duomo.
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  If I can speak Italian at all , that's heroic symphony to celebrate the memory of a great man.
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  And we'll get into that , of course.
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  But the more I look at is Symphony's Evan.
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  And maybe this is obvious , but it's hard to imagine that he could have done what he did with his fifth , sixth , or ninth if it wasn't for this one.
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  He was already moving in a different direction with his first and second , but this one really broke the mold in a way that had people loving it or hating it.
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  And people have been trying to explain it for the last 200 years.
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  And I hopefully maybe we'll get a little closer.
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  But I'm not I'm not guaranteeing anything.
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  And we could even say , John , that in many ways , Beethoven is laying the groundwork for the Razumovsky string quartets and Fidelio and the fifth Piano Concerto in this symphony.
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  The third Symphony really is a new direction for Beethoven in some very significant ways.
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  It's also an immensely important symphony in the history of the symphony as a genre.
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  Bear in mind the symphony as we know it was at that point only a few decades old , and you and I discussed in the episode about Joseph Haydn , the father of the symphony , the idea that a symphony could express something this vast was quite new.
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  So the symphony as a form is still fairly new.
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  And then the idea that the symphony is going to , you know , Gustav Mahler many , many years later will say the symphony should contain everything.
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  I don't know if the heroic symphony of Beethoven contains everything , but it sure contains a lot in a way that symphonies prior to that time simply had not done.
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  And so this must have been terribly exciting and or utterly confusing for its first hearers.
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  I like that it would have been confusing , or exciting , or maybe even terrifying for some of those first listeners.
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  And this is a symphony he wrote between 1802 to 1804 , mainly between May and November of 1803.
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  That's when he wrote most of it.
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  And this is also a time where he had some of the most tumultuous times in his life.
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  We talked about the Hydrogen Star Testament and the Life of Beethoven episode , you know.
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  Long story short , if you aren't , if you aren't familiar.
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  When he was realizing that his deafness was getting worse and was going to become permanent when that finally set in.
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  He kind of went into some despair.
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  And he wrote this testament , basically a will that reads like someone who's really about to take their life and talks about how hard and terrible things are.
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  But then from that , um , after that , he goes in a new direction , as we'll see , and he writes this symphony.
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  I found some translated letters from around this time , and we'll read one right now that kind of sets up , you know , maybe what he was experiencing.
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  He writes to his one love interest , Josephine Brunswick , sometime before the 1805 premiere , writing , well , it is true that I have not been as diligent as I ought to have been , but a private grief robbed me for a long time of my usual intense energy , and for some time after the feeling of love for you , my adored Josephine , began to stir within me.
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  This grief increased even more.
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  As soon as we are together again , with no one to disturb us , you shall hear all about my real sorrows and the struggle with myself between death and life.
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  A struggle in which I was engaged for some time.
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  For a long period , a certain event made me despair of ever achieving any happiness during my life on this earth.
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  But now things are no longer so bad.
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  Quite a lot of sentiment and things I think we can see from this.
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  Yeah , yeah.
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  And this again , this is a few years after the Harlingen Star Testament , which was 1802.
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  He was 31 years old at that point , as you said , John , he at that point was really having to confront this reality of deafness , increasing deafness.
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  It was not going to get better.
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  It was not going to go away.
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  And this real despair , this even Perhaps , like you said , he was thinking , perhaps of taking his own life or just giving up on life.
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  And this letter to Josephine a few years later , he seems to be trying to articulate that he's come out of that to some extent , and that he's being being able to regain his footing on this human journey , and that he's finding a new energy and a new vitality.
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  And boy , are we sure.
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  We sure hear that in the Third Symphony.
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  And it's also one with a famous dedication.
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  At least at first it was Napoleon Bonaparte.
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  He even was calling the symphony Bonaparte , even in a letter to one of his publishers.
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  And of course , he famously took away this dedication and will.
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  We'll get into that in a little bit , but let's jump right into the first movement where he breaks the mold right from the beginning with its nearly non-existent introduction.
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  That is such a treacherous opening.
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  Even there's a lot of recordings that don't sound that together.
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  I think part of the problem is these opening chords aren't always conducted in time.
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  It looks very nice for a conductor to do that.
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  But then when the viola and second violin come in right after , they have to be exactly in time.
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  And if it's not 100% clear or an orchestra with a ton of experience , you know it might not work out so well.
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  Actually , here's an example of kind of how it goes sometimes.
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  So I won't name the conductor in that recording , but it shows that it can be a pretty difficult thing to keep together.
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  It's difficult writing.
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  The first violins have a quadruple stop.
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  They have four pitches they have to play , second violins have a triple stop and the violas have a double stop.
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  So there's a lot.
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  And you know , if you know about stringed instruments , you know you can't play for pitches on a violin all at the same time.
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  You have to kind of roll the bow over the bridge of the strings.
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  So there's a kind of it's like , think of like a grace note pickup , the limp , the limp , and it's really easy for that to go awry.
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  I do wonder how difficult this was for the first orchestra ever to play this , and how a custom they were to this kind of writing.
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  I don't actually know the answer to that question , but I can easily imagine the very first performance of the Eroica Symphony.
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  Those very first chords might have been lump on a lump , but we don't know.
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  And , you know , talk about the introduction being , you said , almost non-existent.
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  I mean , it is two chords , two measures.
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  And the idea that a symphony should even have an introduction is a concept even younger than the symphony itself at this point.
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  1804 1805 the symphony is having this long , slow introduction was a fairly new ish kind of concept.
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  Most of the Haydn and Mozart symphonies don't have a slow introduction , although broadly speaking , later they are , the more likely they are to have a slow intro.
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  Beethoven's first two symphonies have a slow introduction in their first movements.
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  And then , of course , you get to like the Fifth Symphony , for example , gets right into it.
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  The Sixth Symphony , no slow introduction there.
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  The Eighth Symphony doesn't have one.
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  So basically one goes back and forth and this two chords is it this very short intro.
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  Is it.
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  No intro at all.
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  Is it just it's hard even to articulate what exactly he's doing here.
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  It sure gets our attention though.
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  It gets your attention and there's so much happening.
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  We've spent a couple of minutes talking about two measures.
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  And then right after.
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  That , it's right into the exposition with this main theme , which is really just an E-flat major arpeggio , the same chord that we just heard.
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  But then within a couple of bars , the they land on a C-sharp , and at that moment the first violins come in off the on the off beat.
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  And this is where it also gets kind of harder rhythmically because some are playing staccato , the second violin and viola , and then these first violins are playing much more broad on the off beat.
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  And so that's a tritone itself , but it doesn't quite sound super dissonant.
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  And then we get these moments that build up a motif that is just kind of repeated , but not really a full fledged melody.
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  And it's just one minute , one minute.
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  All of this stuff is happening.
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  I don't know , I was thinking about this yesterday.
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  Do you remember , kid cuisine ? The.
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  It's the microwave dinner.
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  And I love.
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  I lived for kid cuisine.
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  You got the.
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  You got the mac and cheese and it's compartment , the brownie.
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  It's compartment the the corn.
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  You know , I feel like beforehand , before this symphony , the exposition was kind of like kid cuisine.
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  You had everything nice and segmented and prepared and everything.
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  But now he's giving you a chip or a stew or.
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  Dumped on the plate.
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  Yeah.
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  Like what ? What's this ? Wait , wait , wait.
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  Where's my food ? What do I do ? What do I.
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  Do ? Yes.
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  And so things happen.
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  And go before you can even really come to a conclusion as to what even was meant to happen.
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  And yet it's also delicious.
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  But you take a taste and you're like , wow , I want more of this.
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  And that's C sharp.
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  You know , the de de de de de.
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  De de de de.
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  De.
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  Whoa , whoa.
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  Hang on.
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  What.
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  What C sharp.
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  How did we get here ? I think a good composer would have written a c natural.
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  That would sound good.
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  Right.
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  De de de de de de de de de de.
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  Yeah.
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  All right.
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  That's very noble to heroic.
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  Right.
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  It's a heroic symphony.
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  Okay.
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  A good composer would would have written that when we would have said , oh , this is a good piece and we wouldn't be talking about it 200 years later.
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  Yeah.
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  That's C-sharp.
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  It sets us up this weird sort of this diminished chord.
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  And then we have this six four chord , and then we're back to E-flat again.
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  Yeah.
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  And what what just happened ? What ? What is this ? This is something very different from anything anyone was used to in that era.
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  Even today , it's still striking.
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  It's still surprising.
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  And the moment it has happened , where ? Surprised by it.
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  And yet it also seems like it's the only thing that could have happened.
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  Yes.
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  That's exactly.
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  It's like , yeah , it's this is the only way we could have gone.
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  Yeah.
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  Like , how did we get here ? But of course we're of course we're here.
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  And that's that's so that's so Beethoven.
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  That one C-sharp might be more illustrative of that Beethoven principle of surprise and expectation than any other single moment.
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  And , you know , Beethoven just immediately creates this tension.
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  Something that Beethoven loves to do , of course , is play with a rhythm.
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  He's a very rhythmic composer in and how he presents and even develops things.
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  And this first movement , it's in three four , which isn't the most common time signature for , um , an opening movement.
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  Okay , maybe Schubert , you know , did , but not the most common thing.
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  So when you have something like a quarter note and then a quarter note rest a quarter note and a quarter note rest , you keep doing that , you kind of get off , so to speak , because you're playing on you're playing on beat one , rest on two , play on three.
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  Then you rest on one , play on two , rest on three , and then play on one.
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  And you kind of repeat that.
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  So you lose the idea for the audience as to where the downbeat of a measure exactly is.
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  And in music , that's in three.
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  For hundreds of years at this point , we've had the phenomenon known as a Himalaya , which is when the beat becomes twice as big.
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  So you're going one , two , three , one , two , three , one and two and three.
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  And you hear this a lot in baroque music.
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  It's it's , you know , even going back to the Renaissance and so forth.
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  So Beethoven uses Heliopolis a lot.
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  But what he does is he syncopated them.
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  So you go into a hemisphere , you're not even sure where the humilis starts.
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  You're not sure where the heck the beat is.
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  And then you go back and all of a sudden you're back and you know exactly where the beat is.
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  And you just say to yourself , what just happened here ? Yeah.
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  And you have this a lot in Beethoven.
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  You certainly have this a lot in the beginning of this movement of this third Symphony.
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  Something that a lot of symphonies did before this was repeat the exposition , repeat this opening section that presents our themes for us that will then be developed throughout this particular recording with George Selle conducting the Cleveland Orchestra , which is fantastic.
• 14:18
  It doesn't repeat the exposition.
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  This is a symphony.
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  Feels like it breaks the mold.
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  So in one sense , in this type of recording , we get to the end of the exposition.
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  It feels like , you know what , we can go on , let's develop this.
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  But when you hear recordings that are more period performance practice , you know , closer to a classical time.
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  They often repeat the exposition.
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  And in that instance I think it makes perfect sense.
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  So it's kind of , um , maybe I'm standing on both sides of the , of the road on that one , but I find it totally fine when it doesn't repeat.
• 14:50
  When it does repeat , it's pretty obvious because you are right back at that opening theme , minus those two big chords , and it's quite , um , recognizable , an instrument that will stand out to you as you're listening in this entire work really is.
• 15:04
  It's the oboe.
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  It's a they are a big part of this.
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  It feels like they're not necessarily a conductor on stage , but some type of authority figure that is guiding us through transitions , presenting new ideas , closing things out.
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  The oboe is often right nearby to , well , guide us along.
• 15:23
  Beethoven really has a concept of writing for winds in general , and you really hear this in the Third Symphony.
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  But in a lot of other works , if it's to certainly in the Ninth Symphony , the Missa Solemnis.
• 15:33
  this , but even in the early symphonies , you know that one of the critiques of the First Symphony was that it sounded like a military band.
• 15:40
  There was there was the prominence of the winds there , not just doubling the strings , which was much more of the style of orchestration before Beethoven.
• 15:49
  And Beethoven really gives the winds a whole different presence.
• 15:53
  And that's very conspicuous in the Third Symphony.
• 15:57
  Not to say our hero was going through trials and tribulations , but it really does feel like there's a moment we are in a storm on a boat , and it's another moment where Beethoven does what Beethoven does is where you have these chaotic lines and whatever that's happening , listen for something longer and something more stretched out that's happening elsewhere too often at the exact same time.
• 16:19
  And here it's also playing with the theme we heard before , because we're developing it now in the development section , where it feels like we're no longer on the same path , but we're making our own path.
• 16:31
  We're taking this through new tonalities , timbres and so forth.
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  And that's also a very Beethoven thing.
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  Taking a very simple musical idea and stretching it way beyond the boundaries of what any normal mortal might have thought possible.
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  So , as we were saying , the exposition begins with a arpeggio spelled out tonic chord.
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  Dee da dee da.
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  One three.
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  One five.
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  Very very simple.
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  You know , the rhythm is simple.
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  The melody is simple.
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  And this is the basis for the movement.
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  This is the first theme of the exposition of this sonata form.
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  Movement.
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  What could be simpler ? Beethoven does this a lot.
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  Think about the Ninth Symphony , the ode to Joy.
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  Very simple.
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  Like a folk melody , you know.
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  Quarter notes.
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  The rhythm is really simple.
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  It's stepwise motion.
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  It's just very , very simple.
• 17:19
  And then we go on this cosmic journey with this very simple tune.
• 17:23
  And Beethoven is doing that right here in the heroic symphony , especially in this development section where this try this triad , this very simple little tune becomes this whole other thing.
• 17:34
  And like you said , we're at one minute.
• 17:35
  We're having this very heroic experience at the beginning , and now we're in this stormy section.
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  We don't know where the beat is necessarily.
• 17:42
  There's the tonality keeps shifting around , and even the the core , the pitches in the triad get kind of morphed into this.
• 17:52
  Maybe it's diminished in one place or it's a.
• 17:54
  So Beethoven really has this extraordinary capacity to imagine different possibilities with very simple material.
• 18:02
  The Diabelli Variations is perhaps one of the most striking examples of that in Beethoven so far.
• 18:08
  I think for people listening in the audience for the first time , it's all it's a bit new and it's a bit different.
• 18:14
  There's definitely there's definitely a lot going on , but when we get to this section where it sounds like there's just stab after stab from the orchestra , and then with this piercing trumpet coming in as well , I wonder how many people heard or expected something like this in an orchestra talking about talk about a terrifying sound , which they may have not really ever heard in their day to day life.
• 18:37
  Yeah.
• 18:38
  And this is followed by something interesting that appears again and again in the symphony where we get this sudden , punctuated , heavy sound.
• 18:47
  It's in the low strings and it fades away and suddenly the oboe is back in.
• 19:01
  There's a bunch of moments here where he will do something very sudden or subito , as you say in music , and it's often with a dynamic and an instrument that's not related to what follows next , like here , the sudden loudness of the low strings , and then it just jumps right into the oboe.
• 19:17
  And an obvious question might be , well , what's happening here ? Are these different trials or battles or something that the that the hero is , um , that the hero was facing.
• 19:28
  I think that it's an obvious that's an obvious expectation from the title , but it's not exactly what we're always going to get.
• 19:34
  And we get into this deeper question about what the symphony means.
• 19:38
  It starts off as a Bonaparte symphony , a tribute to Napoleon.
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  He becomes disillusioned with Napoleon.
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  We'll talk more about that later.
• 19:45
  It's a heroic symphony.
• 19:46
  What's heroic about it ? Well , one of the things maybe that's heroic about it is the sense , the sense of struggle that we're articulating as we look at this development section in this first movement.
• 19:57
  But this question of , you know , who who's the hero ? If Napoleon isn't the hero , is Beethoven the hero ? Are we.
• 20:04
  The hero ? Is it ? Is it all of humanity ? You know , maybe that's the question that sums up the whole experience of Beethoven.
• 20:12
  One of the reasons this particular work holds such enduring fascination.
• 20:16
  It states more explicitly what Beethoven says in so much of his work existence as a heroic struggle.
• 20:23
  Yeah , that's like a theme that we find in Beethoven's music.
• 20:26
  One of the reasons.
• 20:26
  Beethoven is so adored.
• 20:28
  Rightly so , for , you know , all over the world , for generations , there's this sense of struggle and how that struggle is a noble and ennobling struggle.
• 20:37
  And Beethoven is , as you said , Evan , he's doing things in a pretty not standard way , but a way people would recognize , you know , you've got an exposition , a development , and then we have a recapitulation where we get back to those original themes in the original key after we've played with them in the in the development section.
• 20:55
  But we get back into it in such a weird way because this horn comes in and it sounds nice and pastoral.
• 21:10
  But it's for like two seconds , barely two measures , and then it's interrupted loudly by the orchestra again , something coming in suddenly , loudly.
• 21:18
  And then it's not really related to what happens next.
• 21:21
  Um , they die down in that theme is brought back in , and the horn comes back later with the theme.
• 21:25
  Is that a transformation ? It is such an unusual way , I think , to get back into the recap that way , with the horn just almost making it sound.
• 21:33
  It almost sounds like a mistake.
• 21:35
  Yeah.
• 21:35
  Yeah , exactly.
• 21:36
  Oops.
• 21:37
  Coming into early.
• 21:38
  No , this is , in fact , what we're doing.
• 21:40
  And it's this , you know , there's this sense like that's going to continue and then it just stops and there's this burst from the whole orchestra , which again , surprising and and yet what else could have happened.
• 21:51
  And then we naturally get to what is a coda section , which is the part of a movement where you expect we're wrapping it up.
• 21:59
  You can really hear it.
• 22:00
  We are headed home , and it sounds like that for a moment , but then Beethoven doesn't resolve it.
• 22:06
  He's reluctant.
• 22:06
  He starts going off in different keys.
• 22:09
  He starts developing it more.
• 22:10
  And that would have been to critics who know the , the , the forms and everything.
• 22:15
  That would have been something that some of them probably did not like right away , you know.
• 22:19
  What are you doing right now ? This is this is a mess.
• 22:22
  Yeah.
• 22:22
  Coda is typically supposed to be a recapitulation of things that are familiar and a sense of resolve resolving things , and this coda does achieve that.
• 22:32
  But boy , it really takes a roundabout path to get there in a way that's so much more interesting.
• 22:39
  And it does wrap up in a rather , um , heroic way , in a way that you might expect for , well , this type of movement to end and it ends on a great big , of course , E-flat , similar to what we heard in the the beginning.
• 23:10
  Now , Evan , something I always used to mention when I was on air , um , every night was whenever we played this symphony , I would tell people , go to YouTube and find this video because one , I can't believe this is 12 years old now , but someone made a video back in the day of just the opening chords of this symphony , and they take different recordings chronologically , starting in 1924.
• 23:30
  The quality isn't great , but you can hear the differences and also the pitch changes , especially before World War Two , where it's really kind of going all over the place.
• 23:40
  It's a fascinating video.
• 23:41
  Yes , but let's go to the dedication , because this is where things , I think really get kind of , um , interesting or legendary.
• 23:50
  It's a part of the reason I think the symphony has survived , as it has with this whole Napoleon aspect of it.
• 23:55
  He dedicated it to Napoleon Bonaparte.
• 23:58
  He was an admirer of him.
• 24:00
  He saw , I guess , himself in him as well.
• 24:04
  But then Napoleon crowns himself , declares himself Emperor of France , and Beethoven hears about this , supposedly from his secretary and student , Ferdinand.
• 24:17
  Reese and Reese wrote , in writing this symphony , Beethoven had been thinking of Bonaparte , but Bonaparte , while he was first council at that time , Beethoven had the highest esteem for him and compared him to the greatest consuls of ancient Rome.
• 24:30
  Not only I , but many of Beethoven's closer friends saw this symphony on his table , beautifully copied in manuscript , with the word Bonaparte inscribed at the very top of the title page , and Ludwig van Beethoven at the very bottom.
• 24:42
  I was the first to sell him the news that Bonaparte had declared himself emperor , whereupon he broke into a rage and exclaimed , so he is no more than a common mortal now to he will tread underfoot all the rights of man indulge only his ambition.
• 24:56
  Now he will think himself superior to all men.
• 24:59
  Become a tyrant.
• 25:01
  Beethoven went to the table , sees the top of the title page , tore it in half and threw it on the floor.
• 25:06
  The page had to be re copied , and it was only now that the symphony received the title Sinfonia Eroica.
• 25:13
  That's quite a tale , Evan.
• 25:15
  Yes , that's quite a story on trees.
• 25:17
  Yeah.
• 25:17
  Interesting lot we could say about Ferdinand Riese , I think.
• 25:21
  Yes.
• 25:21
  In the limited time we have , I just recognize that his his accounts of Beethoven , which are numerous.
• 25:27
  Yeah.
• 25:28
  Ah , there's reason to have some doubts.
• 25:32
  He often , of course , exaggerated things.
• 25:34
  He told stories of things in which he wasn't even present.
• 25:37
  And of course , the sentence will raise an eyeball where Reese says Beethoven had this beautifully copied manuscript.
• 25:43
  Well , that's wrong.
• 25:44
  Beethoven never had a beautifully copied manuscript.
• 25:46
  But it is true.
• 25:48
  It was dedicated to Napoleon , and then he took that away at some point.
• 25:53
  The 250th anniversary of Beethoven's birth was five years ago , and here at Weta Classical , we had all these wonderful features from our colleague James Jacobs.
• 26:03
  Yeah.
• 26:04
  And in one of them he commented about Ferdinand Ries.
• 26:06
  And he said , in terms of trying to understand these comments that Reese makes about Beethoven , were dealing with a problematic person commenting about another problematic person.
• 26:15
  Yeah.
• 26:16
  And when James said that , I really kind of , you know , that's that's an interesting and I think very insightful way to look at these two individuals who are both fascinating in their own way and certainly contributed wonderful things , but they're both.
• 26:28
  There's ego and there's , you know , there's all kinds of complicated things going on , but there's a lot going on in the world when Beethoven is writing this symphony and you think about Beethoven's lifespan.
• 26:38
  He was born in 1770.
• 26:40
  He died in 1827.
• 26:42
  So that's a snapshot of incredible complexities and uncertainties in Western Europe and immense changes that were occurring during that time in other parts of Europe and even , of course , here in the Americas.
• 26:57
  Questions about freedom and democracy , the role of the individual , questions about war and peace and about nationhood and law and all of these things , had a special intensity during the course of Beethoven's lifetime and the music of Beethoven , maybe more than any other composer , is associated with these transformations , these ongoing questions about human life.
• 27:21
  Beethoven's entire body of work really reflects that that uncertainty and that struggle and that that that yearning for greater freedom and greater dignity for the human individual and for human societies.
• 27:32
  And there's hardly any other work of Beethoven we can think of that does so more explicitly than the Heroic Age Symphony.
• 27:40
  And Napoleon.
• 27:41
  Being associated with the piece is only one aspect of this.
• 27:44
  It's only one aspect.
• 27:46
  And clearly , Beethoven didn't like this fact of what Napoleon was doing in the end and scratched his name out so hard so that you can see , you know , the paper has been torn through one way or another and on its removal.
• 27:59
  And we'll put a picture , um , up of that as well.
• 28:02
  But he also referred this to as the Bonaparte Symphony after this event , months later , in a letter to a publisher , Breitkopf , saying it's called the Bonaparte Symphony.
• 28:12
  Yeah.
• 28:12
  So there's.
• 28:13
  He took the dedication away , but I think there's not enough evidence to really read into exactly what happened when he was told , or the timing of him really deciding to not call it Bonaparte anymore.
• 28:26
  Um , but either way , he took it away.
• 28:29
  Um , and there's a funny letter I'll.
• 28:31
  I'll read at the very end.
• 28:32
  It's not related to this at all , but it's a letter between Beethoven and Reese that I think is quite humorous.
• 28:37
  But let's jump into the second movement now.
• 28:39
  The funeral march , as it's , um , titled.
• 28:43
  This is the one that for me , I think truly breaks expectations in terms of what you said before , even as to people that hadn't heard a symphony that could express something this vast and this large or this , you know , maybe deep.
• 28:58
  Yeah.
• 28:59
  Plenty of music written before this expresses deep emotion.
• 29:02
  But something about where this symphony takes us is , uh , really ? I can't think of a precedent for it.
• 29:23
  And it starts with the classic death rhythm as we know it , this dum dum dum.
• 29:29
  But we're also maybe wondering , what is this funeral for ? Who is this funeral for ? We just went on this journey that sounded like we ended with great confidence.
• 29:39
  Now a funeral.
• 29:39
  A funeral march.
• 29:40
  What the heck is this ? Well , you mentioned , you know , the death rhythm as you , as you called it.
• 29:45
  Dotted rhythms.
• 29:46
  Dum dum.
• 29:47
  Dum dum dum dum dum dum dotted.
• 29:49
  Rhythms in Western European music since at least the days of Jean-Baptiste Lully in the latter half of the 17th century , maybe going back even further.
• 29:58
  Dotted rhythms represent dignity and solemnity and seriousness.
• 30:03
  And somehow they do.
• 30:04
  I don't know why I hear a Lilly Overture and I think , oh , the grandeur of Louis the 14th or whatever , and somehow they do convey that a good composer would have written this funeral march with even rhythms.
• 30:17
  Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum.
• 30:21
  Dum dum dum dum.
• 30:23
  That would be a good piece , right ? It would be serious and mournful , and we'd all feel we'd take off our hats , or we'd put our hands on our hearts.
• 30:30
  And that would be a good music.
• 30:31
  Good music.
• 30:32
  Beethoven is a great composer.
• 30:33
  And so he makes he puts in these dotted rhythms that give it this not only solemnity and dignity , but there's also that almost like a sob , you know , have those that Scottish snap.
• 30:43
  Dum dum dum dum.
• 30:44
  Dum dum dum.
• 30:46
  It's that sense of like a stab of pain.
• 30:48
  And it infuses.
• 30:51
  So much sorrow and such a profound feeling of loss in the very first.
• 30:56
  The first measure of this , this strange movement.
• 31:00
  Yeah.
• 31:00
  From the very moment we again , we ended with this heroic E-flat major , this thunderous chord at the end of the first movement , and everything is victory and glory.
• 31:10
  And now we're now we're grieving.
• 31:13
  Now we're sobbing with sadness.
• 31:14
  How did we get here ? Yeah , and it's the oboe again that guides us through here.
• 31:21
  And it's a favorite moment , I think , among some oboe players.
• 31:25
  Um , Nicholas Stovall of the NSO , when he came on and talked and played for us , I think he played this and he talked about it being one of his favorite moments.
• 31:32
  As you guide the orchestra from C minor to to E-flat major.
• 31:50
  And again , he does some things that are rather unexpected or jagged.
• 31:54
  I'm thinking of that moment with the , um , the horn that came in for a second in the first movement before being interrupted.
• 32:00
  As we get softer and softer here , there's a sudden , louder dynamic again before it's brought back.
• 32:13
  Now , Evan , the funeral march , to me , it feels like it kind of ends right here.
• 32:19
  Yeah.
• 32:19
  In fact , you could stop right here and.
• 32:22
  Well , yeah.
• 32:23
  That's very moving.
• 32:25
  Yeah.
• 32:25
  Brilliantly written movement.
• 32:26
  And now we're going to move on.
• 32:27
  That would make perfect sense.
• 32:28
  Yes.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:29
  And especially like ten , 15 years earlier.
• 32:31
  But this is just the beginning.
• 32:33
  He goes on the oboe continues.
• 32:44
  And one thing I want us to listen for is how he's stretching things out in the strings with these triplets in the winds underneath.
• 32:58
  In this whole passage feels like he's just thrown a ball , you know , beautifully , far and high in the air.
• 33:03
  And it just lands right at the hobos feet as they take over.
• 33:08
  And then the others take those triplets and they they exchange lines.
• 33:12
  And these very steady triplets are seemed like the opposite side of the coin from the dotted rhythms of the first section.
• 33:18
  We have this now , this very steady dot dot dot dot dot dot , very even rhythm.
• 33:22
  And somehow the juxtaposition of those two things in the same movement is so powerful.
• 33:27
  And then we get to this point where this there's this little few , this fugal toe , which is what the term we use for a few , which is just sort of a brief fugal passage rather than a fully written out fugue.
• 33:39
  But you have this imitative counterpoint in this very strict style that's very old fashioned.
• 33:45
  Even by the beginning of the 19th century , not a lot of fugues in the music of this era.
• 33:50
  I think of a Beethoven symphony as a fugue.
• 33:52
  And you don't there's not.
• 33:53
  Maybe the Ninth String Quartet has one.
• 33:55
  You don't have a lot of them , but you do have a few pretty consistently in the Viennese Mass tradition.
• 34:02
  Mozart and Haydn wrote in that style and Beethoven's two masses.
• 34:05
  They both have fugues at the end of the Gloria and the the credo.
• 34:11
  And that's just a tradition that goes way back.
• 34:13
  So it indicates this kind of religiosity.
• 34:15
  There's a kind of solemnity to that , to the fugue as well.
• 34:19
  And the fact that he inserts one here in this particular spot.
• 34:22
  Yeah.
• 34:23
  Uh , you know , uh , that's that's again he's he's summoning this very old fashioned kind of idea , like we were talking about the dotted rhythm going all the way back to , uh , you know , Louis the 14th or whatever.
• 34:35
  And , uh , this is also a very old musical style , but he's giving it something a very new , uh , a new wine and old wineskins , I guess , would be the the metaphor I'd use.
• 34:47
  This grows as it sustains and it grows and it feels like we're transforming into something very different , much deeper than the march that started the.
• 34:57
  This movement.
• 34:58
  And the horns are absolutely glorious.
• 35:13
  And this is a symphony that has moments like this and others as well here that I would say makes us it makes it a symphony that knows you better than you know yourself , because he's taking us to this glorious moment.
• 35:27
  But then it gets a little bit different.
• 35:29
  We start to get darker.
• 35:31
  The trumpet comes in with this stab , this intense sound.
• 35:41
  And you think that's kind of it ? And then it raises and pitch and it sounds relentless also with the strings , you know , just chugging along underneath.
• 35:49
  I wonder for some people watching the premiere , even this was the first time they experienced something like , I'm thinking Edgar Allan Poe's Tell-Tale heart.
• 35:57
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  You've heard this funeral music.
• 35:58
  You've heard something more sacred that you hear , like in a church , this forgotten aspect.
• 36:03
  And now you're hearing something that makes you reflect inward.
• 36:07
  He's taken us from this passive view of a funeral march , which you're watching a funeral march , right ? The person dead is not hearing it famously.
• 36:13
  I'm not a scientist , but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
• 36:17
  So he's taken this from that point of view to something more intimate to now know.
• 36:22
  Look inside yourself.
• 36:24
  Um , um.
• 36:26
  This this is a very public funeral.
• 36:27
  March is a very public thing.
• 36:29
  You know , it's a public procession.
• 36:31
  And yet this is also very intimate.
• 36:33
  There's a very personal experience that we have listening to this music where we're forced to confront ourselves as individuals and as part of a community with these incredibly , uh , intense , uh , these , these physical emotions that we feel in our , in our abdomens.
• 36:50
  Uh , and Beethoven just knows as a composer how to write music in a way that's going to you talk.
• 36:56
  These words word stab a lot.
• 36:58
  I mean , it's definitely there's a there's a kind of a poking , uh , um , I want to say invasive , but there's a sense of something that's entering into your being in a way that's painful , but also healing.
• 37:11
  And this , this music in particular , there's a sense of we're being forced to confront something in ourselves that's painful and frightening , terrifying even.
• 37:20
  And yet there's a profound truth.
• 37:22
  And with that truth comes liberation.
• 37:25
  Absolutely , Evan.
• 37:26
  And there's just two points I have more on.
• 37:29
  Um , this movement to listen , for one , is a rhythmic aspect , and you can hear how Beethoven makes sound faster without actually being faster when you take an accompaniment.
• 37:39
  That's triplets.
• 37:40
  Um bup bup bup bup bup bup.
• 37:42
  And then you change it to sixteenths.
• 37:44
  Dot dot dot dot dot dot where you have that rest on the downbeat.
• 37:47
  It's the same amount of notes , but now the amount of time it's taking up is different.
• 38:01
  It's a subtle difference.
• 38:03
  A non musician might not be able to articulate or really notice it consciously , but it has an effect.
• 38:08
  Oh yes.
• 38:09
  And then in the final minute we're getting really small.
• 38:12
  We're getting really quiet.
• 38:13
  It's hard to really depict because it's so soft.
• 38:16
  But then a final burst of energy right at the end.
• 38:23
  And.
• 38:36
  Not to be too morose , but this also reminds me of death in a sense.
• 38:39
  The sudden burst of energy or clarity that is , you know , I think it's I forget what it's called.
• 38:44
  It's a pretty well documented , um , yes , phenomenon that is a part of death.
• 38:48
  Yes.
• 38:48
  Very frequently.
• 38:49
  And again , there's that physical aspect to this music.
• 38:52
  Uh , this is embodied aspect.
• 38:54
  Yeah.
• 38:55
  And you know , the question of why Beethoven would include a funeral march in what started off as a tribute to a living hero.
• 39:03
  It's a fascinating question.
• 39:05
  Not easy to answer.
• 39:06
  It's a hero's funeral march.
• 39:08
  It invokes the overpowering individual and communal grief of losing someone or losing something that was truly extraordinary.
• 39:19
  And it's the music of irreparable , irretrievable loss.
• 39:24
  But why ? Why put that in this symphony ? And why is it the second movement and we have this expression of overwhelming grief , and then we have to move on to something else ? Yeah.
• 39:35
  And when we do , it makes perfect sense.
• 39:36
  And yet , how did he conceive ? What is he trying to say ? Why ? There's so many questions that really can't be answered.
• 39:43
  That's important.
• 39:44
  There are questions that can't be answered.
• 39:46
  And I would be skeptical of someone who told you they knew the answer.
• 39:50
  Yeah.
• 39:50
  To it.
• 39:51
  But we're going to jump into the premiere.
• 39:53
  And what happened there right after this.
• 39:59
  Classical breakdown.
• 40:00
  Your guide to classical music is brought.
• 40:02
  To you by Weta Classical.
• 40:05
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• 40:18
  Find all that and more at Weta Classical.
• 40:24
  Now we get into the premiere even of Beethoven's Third Symphony.
• 40:30
  The first performance of it was a private one at the Palace of Prince Lobkowicz in June of 1804 , and I can't believe that they had just two rehearsals.
• 40:39
  I read that I forget , I think it was a letter.
• 40:41
  I can't have gone well , no.
• 40:43
  I mean.
• 40:44
  Maybe , but , uh.
• 40:45
  Yeah , two rehearsals is difficult today.
• 40:48
  An orchestra can sit down and play this with zero rehearsal.
• 40:51
  Is it going to be a great performance ? Probably not.
• 40:54
  The musicians will know.
• 40:55
  You know , out of all the concerts , that was another one , um , kind of thing.
• 40:59
  But they did not have any of that context or anything back then.
• 41:02
  So two rehearsals that had to be difficult.
• 41:05
  And there is a little bit I want to read from a critic who was at the public premiere in April of 1805.
• 41:12
  They wrote this musical connoisseurs and amateurs were divided into several parties.
• 41:17
  One group , Beethoven's Very Special Friends , maintains that precisely , this symphony is a masterpiece.
• 41:23
  The other group utterly denies this work.
• 41:26
  Any artistic value through strange modulations and violent transitions , with abundant scratchings in the bass , with three horns and so forth.
• 41:34
  A true , if not desirable originality can indeed be gained without much effort.
• 41:39
  The third very small group stands in the middle.
• 41:42
  They admit that the symphony contains many beautiful qualities , but admit that the context often seems completely disjointed , and that the endless duration exhausts even connoisseurs , becoming unbearable to the mere amateur to the public.
• 41:56
  The symphony was too difficult , too long.
• 41:59
  Beethoven , on the other hand , did not find the applause to be sufficiently outstanding.
• 42:04
  I have just a couple things on this.
• 42:06
  Well , one , I guess.
• 42:06
  Journalistic malpractice.
• 42:08
  That's as old as time.
• 42:09
  Oh , yeah.
• 42:09
  I mean , who wrote this ? Who edits these things with these papers ? But also , it's kind of funny that I'm getting a sense of.
• 42:16
  The writer is also annoyed that we've got this third group who won't make up their mind.
• 42:20
  Yeah.
• 42:20
  It's like some people love it , some people hate it.
• 42:22
  And then there's these people who won't even take a side.
• 42:24
  There's an old story.
• 42:25
  I don't know if it's true of somebody shouting out at an early performance.
• 42:29
  I'll pay another Kreutzer if this thing will stop.
• 42:32
  You know , the sense , like the symphony is really long by the standards of that particular moment in time.
• 42:38
  And yes , that must have been that the mere length of it , never mind the content , must have been very confusing to to a lot of people in the audience.
• 42:45
  And this unrehearsed question is also an interesting one.
• 42:48
  The Beethoven's Mass in C was famously doomed by insufficient rehearsal.
• 42:55
  You have to wonder.
• 42:55
  I mean , we talk about the first audiences and how confused they must have been.
• 42:58
  But of course , there's these orchestral musicians who have to play this piece.
• 43:02
  Yeah , they've never heard it before.
• 43:04
  They've never played it before.
• 43:05
  They've , you know , whether they're well rehearsed or not.
• 43:08
  Were they confused ? Were they excited ? Were they baffled ? Were they thrilled ? You know , it's hard to say , but surely that must have been a great challenge to play this music for the first time.
• 43:18
  Lots of pieces we can think of.
• 43:20
  The Rite of Spring , Stravinsky.
• 43:23
  The obvious example.
• 43:24
  The first musicians were like , what the heck is this ? And now , of course , it's , you know , it's it's audition repertoire.
• 43:30
  Yeah.
• 43:30
  So , you know , things change.
• 43:32
  But the confusion that people experience wasn't just in the audience.
• 43:36
  So the first two movements are so long.
• 43:38
  I mean , the first movement is longer than a lot of early symphonies that were ever composed.
• 43:43
  Yes.
• 43:43
  Together , they're longer than most symphonies by Haydn or Mozart ever.
• 43:47
  So after that , of course , he takes us to a third movement , which is quite short and really not that daring at all when it comes to the structure.
• 43:55
  Right ? I mean , this sounds like a a nice scherzo.
• 43:58
  It's one of my favorite.
• 44:00
  Um , but yeah , but after maybe two big , heavy movements , he needs to give us something to say.
• 44:07
  Hey.
• 44:07
  You know.
• 44:08
  Yeah.
• 44:08
  Life's the destination is set , but the journey isn't.
• 44:11
  You know , this is ambulant.
• 44:12
  It's full of life.
• 44:13
  It feels rustic and fun.
• 44:33
  Yeah.
• 44:34
  It's , uh , scherzo and trio.
• 44:35
  So structurally , it's , I would say the most old fashioned of the four movements of this very , uh , original , Very revolutionary symphony.
• 44:45
  And , you know , Beethoven is the composer who put the scherzo into the symphony.
• 44:51
  Before that , there was a minuet , typically in a symphony.
• 44:54
  You look at Haydn and Mozart and so forth.
• 44:57
  But even Beethoven's first symphony , the third movement , is this weird ? He doesn't call it a scherzo , but it basically is one.
• 45:03
  I would say , um , minuet and trio.
• 45:06
  Trio doesn't necessarily mean , in this context three instruments , although once upon a time it probably was that it just means a middle contrasting section and it's a B , a is the structure of the whole movement.
• 45:17
  Again , very old fashioned structure.
• 45:19
  Minuet and trio going back to the middle of the 18th century.
• 45:23
  And the minuet , of course , is a dance.
• 45:26
  And you could argue that Beethoven , by taking the minuet out of the symphony , he doesn't put one back in until the Eighth Symphony , is he ? He's maybe he's dead.
• 45:35
  Identifying the symphony as a as a genre.
• 45:38
  And yet here we have this scherzo in the heroic symphony after this crushing funeral march.
• 45:43
  And it dances.
• 45:45
  It's a very dance.
• 45:46
  You know , we talked about you and I talked about the Beethoven Violin Concerto in an earlier episode and how dance like the finale of that movement , that piece is.
• 45:55
  And this again , is a very dance like experience , and that's part of what gives it its vitality.
• 46:01
  I half wonder if Beethoven would have turned around and said , you know , why are you so morose ? Enjoy the scherzo.
• 46:06
  What , you didn't like that funeral march ? Um , but for for me , there's not much to mention.
• 46:11
  Too much dimension musically.
• 46:13
  Just enjoy this one.
• 46:14
  I love , though.
• 46:16
  Beethoven's Play with Rhythm.
• 46:17
  There's this descending line that works so perfectly in three , four and this little trill at the end.
• 46:28
  And then at the end , it comes back a different way.
• 46:32
  And I and I love it.
• 46:32
  But the big revolutionary part of this movement is the orchestration , which also seems quite simple for what the symphony is actually doing.
• 46:43
  It sounds like it's larger than the sum of its parts , but we only get one extra instrument , which is an extra horn.
• 46:49
  So instead of two we get three.
• 46:50
  And they are featured beautifully here.
• 47:06
  Yes.
• 47:07
  So the minuet and trio , the scherzo and trio , it really is kind of a trio in a way , with those three horns very prominently featured there.
• 47:14
  Yeah.
• 47:15
  And he wrote it in a way that it doesn't require a lot of stopped horned sounds like that , you know , compact , buzzing sound that we heard from a horn player last , last season.
• 47:26
  But it's , you know , quite open sound.
• 47:29
  And I love it.
• 47:30
  And I always love how Beethoven brings these kind of pastoral , jocular sounds into the music.
• 47:36
  And it's a heroic symphony.
• 47:37
  And this thing with the three horns in particular , has a very heroic sound to it.
• 47:42
  Why ? Why is it heroic ? I don't know , but I think most of us , when we hear this , we think , yes , that's that's heroic.
• 47:48
  Da da da da da da dum dum dum dum dum dum dum.
• 47:52
  Yeah.
• 47:52
  And yet , scherzo is the word means joke.
• 47:55
  Now , not all scarecrows are actually humorous , but this one is.
• 47:59
  And it's not a joke in a sort of a silly or frivolous sense.
• 48:05
  Uh , what's what's what's the joke ? What are we laughing at ? At death itself.
• 48:10
  After a funeral march.
• 48:11
  Are we laughing at the uncertainties of life in Western Europe at the beginning of the 19th century ? Or are we laughing at ourselves , at imagining ourselves to be the hero of our own story when we're just struggling mortals , I don't know.
• 48:25
  And the the fun or joke aspect of it really comes in for me right at the end where he has that descending rhythm again that I like.
• 48:40
  And then he changes at the last time to be in two.
• 48:43
  Or we would say duple.
• 48:44
  Boom boom boom boom boom.
• 48:45
  And it just oh , that's one of the things I love about Beethoven.
• 49:19
  But then we get to the fourth movement , which opens in such an unusual way for me at first , because what is this ? Is this a concerto ? We get to this big moment , and I expect some solo violin or piano to come in.
• 49:32
  Yes , but that doesn't happen.
• 49:34
  Yes.
• 49:34
  And it's a lot like the finale of the Ninth Symphony , where you have this cacophonous burst out of nowhere that jumps you out of your seat.
• 49:41
  Yeah.
• 49:42
  And yet again , it's totally unexpected.
• 49:45
  And once it has happened , what else could have happened ? Yeah , it's just right and true.
• 49:51
  And then right after it , we get what I would call a scherzo , a joke.
• 49:56
  Because this really does feel like a joke.
• 49:58
  We get a whole bunch of what I would call kind of nothing.
• 50:00
  It's this stiff legged pizzicato , like a wooden doll kind of walking around some sudden , louder dynamics.
• 50:07
  But on the whole , it sounds like a lot of nothing.
• 50:09
  If I was Beethoven , I might turn around.
• 50:11
  You actually like this ? Are you listening still ? Wow.
• 50:14
  Okay.
• 50:14
  And then it's like , oh , okay , we'll go on then.
• 50:17
  And then the theme comes in and from there we get a set of variations.
• 50:21
  Right.
• 50:21
  And you say a whole lot of nothing.
• 50:23
  It's important to point out that you're absolutely right.
• 50:25
  In a sense , there's a lot of silence because there are a lot of rests.
• 50:28
  Yeah.
• 50:29
  Just these very short notes.
• 50:30
  And the rest is silence.
• 50:32
  As you know , hamlet says as he's dying.
• 50:34
  The rest is silence , you know.
• 50:36
  But here it's not this dying.
• 50:37
  It's this kind of humorous , peculiar little theme.
• 50:42
  Yeah.
• 50:42
  Which is out of nowhere , but like , oh , this is a theme in variations , which is not an unusual way to end a symphony or a concerto in.
• 50:50
  You know , even going back to Mozart and Haydn and so forth , that the idea that you would end a symphony with theme and variations , is it particularly revolutionary in itself ? But what Beethoven does with , with variations is like no other composer.
• 51:04
  And you really already see that here.
• 51:06
  Now , this is a set of ten variations plus a coda.
• 51:10
  And what's interesting , one of the many things that's interesting about this particular finale in the heroic , the heroic Symphony is he's drawing on previous works in a way that I can't think of any other Beethoven piece where he takes a piece of thematic material and uses it again and again and again in multiple pieces over a period of years.
• 51:31
  Occasionally you'll find little bits , like there's a bit in Fidelio that comes from something earlier and so forth.
• 51:36
  It's not completely unheard of for Beethoven to reuse material , but here there's a contra dance from , I think , 1801 1802 where it's like note for note , you have that material that gets used in this symphony , and there's the creatures of Prometheus , the ballet that he wrote around a few years before that.
• 51:56
  And again , the same very similar music appears there.
• 52:00
  And then there's a set of piano variations , his opus 35 , and they're often called the Heroic Variations , which is a very similar.
• 52:09
  The the theme is basically the same theme as in the finale of the Third Symphony.
• 52:15
  And the variations that he writes for piano in that piece are very , very similar in a lot of ways.
• 52:22
  They're also quite different in some ways.
• 52:23
  But it's not just like a piano reduction of this symphony , but clearly he's thinking ahead about what he can do with this theme as far as creating variations for it , and he does a lot of work on that in the piano piece , the the opus 35 variations , and then he takes it to a whole different level with this symphony.
• 52:53
  I'll put on the show notes page some links or a playlist of some of those works , because those are interesting to listen to.
• 53:01
  I never really can't remember if or when I listened to Erika Variations last , but I listened to it again after you mentioned it.
• 53:08
  And you hear you hear them.
• 53:09
  Some of these aspects.
• 53:10
  Yes.
• 53:11
  Yeah , yeah.
• 53:20
  And then we get to a moment that reminds me of what you're talking about with Fuga.
• 53:25
  In the second movement , we get something that's not an actual fugue , it's an imitation.
• 53:30
  It doesn't quite stand on its own , but it's a remarkable point that just creates a minor sound and some turbulence that I find really , really engaging.
• 53:47
  One of my favorite parts of the finale , Evan , is this stormy , minor contrasting section with these upward 16th running lines , which I.
• 53:57
  Find.
• 53:57
  Beethoven does that a bit more than other composers.
• 54:00
  He does it at the end of the symphony.
• 54:02
  He also does it in a beautiful way at the end of the Ninth Symphony.
• 54:05
  Yes , these ascending lines are just , um.
• 54:07
  I love how he does it , because if we I've talked a lot about Tchaikovsky in contrasting motion , he does it , you know , to the nth degree.
• 54:15
  Yes , but that's not how Beethoven is using it here.
• 54:18
  And this is a moment that doesn't even last that long.
• 54:20
  But he's investing , you know , quite a bit of energy into it.
• 54:24
  And again , this is a moment where there are a lot of these moments in this symphony.
• 54:27
  We haven't really touched on this as deeply , where there's actually a kind of delicacy about it.
• 54:32
  You know , everything that we think of as heroic , it's very brash and it's loud and , you know , there's this triumph and yeah , there's definitely that's that's there's some wonderful effects in this symphony that articulate that , but there's also these moments that are just very exquisite , and there's something heroic about them too.
• 54:58
  And we should mention the length of the last two movements.
• 55:02
  The first two movements are like a half hour altogether.
• 55:05
  The last two are can often fit within the length of just the first one.
• 55:09
  So shorter.
• 55:10
  Yeah , much , much shorter.
• 55:11
  Much more terse and economical , you might say.
• 55:16
  And I think him using a theme and variations wraps us up in a way that's much more familiar.
• 55:22
  You think of a mahler symphony which takes you on a journey , even in the final movement here.
• 55:26
  It's familiar.
• 55:27
  We've got these things coming back in again and again , and some of these fugue elements that we heard before.
• 55:33
  And I also find another concerto like moment , because we get to a point where it feels like we're about to have some kind of cadenza , but it's after but it's actually like a soft , gentle , reflective moment in the oboe and winds that just really stretches on.
• 55:59
  Now , Evan , we've been explaining all these different things , these different sounds , these demon variations , all these things happening.
• 56:07
  But we're actually right towards the end of the symphony.
• 56:10
  We've got like a minute and a half left , and it does not sound like we are anywhere near the end.
• 56:15
  It feels like we have a lot more to go.
• 56:16
  Yeah.
• 56:42
  But he wraps it up really quick in a way that's like , oh my God , I'm late.
• 56:46
  He's been scrolling on the couch and he's he gets he jumps off and runs in the car.
• 56:50
  There's just kind of a flip side from what we talked about earlier where , you know , the the funeral march reaches a point early on where it seems like it could just end there.
• 56:59
  And then we go on this whole the journey.
• 57:00
  Well , here it seems like we could go on a whole other journey.
• 57:03
  And Beethoven says , no , actually we're done.
• 57:05
  Yeah.
• 57:05
  And we are done.
• 57:07
  You know , of course , you know , I'm hungry for more.
• 57:09
  And yet again , Beethoven does the unexpected.
• 57:12
  And once it happens , we say , yes , that's that's the only and best thing that could have happened.
• 57:25
  So we've seen now how this symphony broke expectations.
• 57:28
  It broke the mold.
• 57:30
  These huge movements that are much more expanded.
• 57:32
  I mean , the second is in a world of itself.
• 57:35
  This dedication to Napoleon and then reversing it.
• 57:38
  What is the music even truly saying ? I'm not going to pretend I have the same kind of oracle answer on that , but I find this quote from Berlioz interesting.
• 57:47
  In 1862 he wrote , it is wrong to tamper with the description placed at the head of this work by the composer himself.
• 57:55
  The inscription runs Heroic Symphony to celebrate the memory of a great man.
• 57:59
  In this we see that there is no question of battles or triumphal marches , such as many people deceived by mutilations of the title , naturally expect , but much in the way of grave and profound thought , of melancholy souvenirs , and of ceremonies , imposing by their grandeur and sadness.
• 58:15
  In a word , it is the hero's funeral rites.
• 58:19
  I know a few examples in music of a style in which grief has been so consistently able to retain such pure form in such nobility of expression.
• 58:28
  And that's Hector Berlioz in 1862.
• 58:32
  Some good points there.
• 58:33
  Yeah.
• 58:34
  We think of the battle and triumphs in mind , held in late A Hero's Life by Richard Strauss.
• 58:41
  We don't have that here.
• 58:42
  And is this some kind of death of Beethoven's earlier life ? And now he's moving on to something else with this , after this whole gunshot experience.
• 58:51
  And , you know , it's so interesting , John , you mentioned ein Helden Leben , Richard Strauss , where he's the hero.
• 58:56
  It's a musical self-portrait.
• 58:58
  Yeah , rather the conceited one.
• 59:01
  Maybe it's great music.
• 59:02
  Is Beethoven the hero in this symphony ? Yeah , maybe he is.
• 59:06
  Maybe to some extent.
• 59:07
  Or on the other hand , maybe Beethoven is looking outside of himself here , and maybe more so in this work than in any other work of his , I don't know , again , the dedication , even a scrapped dedication to someone he didn't know personally , and how that morphs into this broad idea of the heroic.
• 59:24
  Yeah , who is heroic ? Who ? Who's the hero ? Is it a self-portrait ? Is it a musical portrait of all that is heroic in all of humanity ? And of course , you mentioned Richard Strauss , and I'm thinking about the Metamorphoses for solo , the 23 solo strings toward the end of his life , and he quotes the funeral march in Beethoven's Third Symphony as a , as a way of evoking the heroic in a culture that has gone through these terrible transformations of war and violence.
• 59:54
  And , you know , Beethoven is also exploring those kinds of feelings of loss and recovery and healing and transformation in his own way.
• 1:00:04
  And what Beethoven is setting the stage for.
• 1:00:07
  You know , Richard Strauss is certainly worth mentioning , but , you know , Franz Schubert and Robert Schumann and , of course , Anton Bruckner and Richard Wagner and Gustav Mahler.
• 1:00:17
  None of them can do what they do without Beethoven , and especially not without Beethoven's Third Symphony.
• 1:00:24
  Absolutely.
• 1:00:25
  And the only thing I have to add here is just kind of my personal feeling about this , and a lot of Beethoven's music in that it's like he's holding up a mirror , but not a normal mirror.
• 1:00:35
  Like when you look in the mirror and you see that the image is flipped.
• 1:00:38
  A scientific discovery I made at age three.
• 1:00:41
  Yes.
• 1:00:42
  But there are mirrors that show you how you actually look to other people.
• 1:00:45
  It's not magic.
• 1:00:46
  It's just two mirrors at a 90 degree angle.
• 1:00:48
  But there's videos online of people like on the street seeing themselves this way for the first time , and the reactions are very endearing.
• 1:00:57
  Um , so in the end , I think in my imagination , Beethoven is holding up a mirror to us in the audience , but not one that shows your flipped self , the one that shows your true self.
• 1:01:07
  Yes.
• 1:01:07
  And I guess that will change throughout your life.
• 1:01:10
  That's just my big pie in the sky.
• 1:01:13
  Thought about it.
• 1:01:14
  But , Evan and everyone , if you're still here.
• 1:01:18
  I have this letter from Ferdinand Reece , so you might be interested in this.
• 1:01:21
  Evan , I think it's quite funny.
• 1:01:24
  Beethoven in 1804 , in Vienna , wrote to Ferdinand Reese a letter.
• 1:01:28
  And back then these are notes that could be delivered , like right away by a courier or messenger.
• 1:01:32
  It was the same day type thing.
• 1:01:35
  There's no context.
• 1:01:35
  You don't need any context.
• 1:01:36
  He writes to to Reese.
• 1:01:39
  You must manage the affair very cleverly.
• 1:01:41
  Dear Reese , and you must absolutely insist on obtaining from him something in writing.
• 1:01:46
  I have stated in my letter that you too had said that you had heard , that you had already heard about the affair at the end , but that you didn't know who told you.
• 1:01:54
  Do likewise and say that the story had even been mentioned already as referring to me , and that I was extremely anxious to know the exact truth , so that I could read my brother a lesson.
• 1:02:05
  By the way , my brother is not supposed to know that here proche has written the truth to me.
• 1:02:09
  Come and see me after you have carried out your task as ambassador.
• 1:02:12
  All my greetings to the lady.
• 1:02:14
  If the husband is stubborn , then stick to the wife I love.
• 1:02:17
  That's.
• 1:02:18
  I mean , this is such.
• 1:02:18
  This is like a movie where Reese is doing this little side quest.
• 1:02:23
  He's.
• 1:02:23
  You know , if the husband is stubborn , stick it to the wife , you know , to get this information out of them.
• 1:02:28
  And Reese is like 20.
• 1:02:29
  We see these letters and sketchbooks and the conversation books , of course , that Beethoven needed toward the end of his life.
• 1:02:37
  And we're constantly reminded , you know , Beethoven is this larger than life being.
• 1:02:42
  He's like this marble statue to us.
• 1:02:44
  Yeah.
• 1:02:44
  And we hear this heroic symphony that he wrote , and we're just transported to a.
• 1:02:49
  Noble world of heroic struggle.
• 1:02:51
  Yes.
• 1:02:52
  And he's a very human being.
• 1:02:54
  Yeah , a very complicated , very problematic , very flawed human being.
• 1:02:59
  And maybe that's the heroic struggle.
• 1:03:02
  Maybe that's what's heroic about Beethoven.
• 1:03:04
  And maybe , as you said , I agree with you , John.
• 1:03:06
  They're holding up that mirror to ourselves.
• 1:03:08
  And what do we see there ? We see flaws.
• 1:03:11
  We see cowardice , we see weakness , we see indecision.
• 1:03:14
  We see selfishness.
• 1:03:16
  And Beethoven is saying , yes.
• 1:03:18
  And in all that can we still be heroic ? And he's answering that.
• 1:03:22
  The answer is yes , but we have to figure out ourselves how.
• 1:03:26
  And this , this symphony offers us a roadmap , but we're the ones that have to make the journey.
• 1:03:32
  Beautifully said.
• 1:03:33
  Thank you Evan.
• 1:03:36
  Thanks for listening to Classical Breakdown , your guide to classical music.
• 1:03:39
  For more information on this episode , visit the Show notes page at Classical Breakdown.
• 1:03:45
  You can send me comments and episode ideas to Classical Breakdown at.
• 1:03:50
  And if you enjoyed this episode , leave a review in your podcast app.
• 1:03:53
  I'm John Panther.
• 1:03:55
  Thanks for listening to Classical Breakdown from Weta Classical.