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Future Focused Church with Raymond Chang · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
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Raymond Chang. Raymond is the
0:53
Executive Director of the 10x10
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Collaboration Part of Fuller Seminary,
0:58
which is a collaborative movement that is geared
1:01
toward reaching 10 million young people over
1:03
10 years with the gospel. He is also the
1:06
president of the Asian American Christian
1:09
Collaborative, a pastor and a writer.
1:12
Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served
1:15
as the Associate Chaplain for Discipleship at
1:18
Wheaton College. He has worked in the for
1:21
profit and nonprofit sectors and served
1:24
in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his
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wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud
1:30
parents of Sophia, and they reside in
1:33
Chicago. A reminder, before we start
1:35
today's conversation, please take a moment to
1:38
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and
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share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
1:44
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
1:47
on Instagram. Shoot us an email
1:49
at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
1:51
uh.com
1:54
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
1:56
episodes. We appreciate your voice in
1:59
how we faithfully discern the future of the church.
2:12
>> Loren: All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
2:15
Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today Pastor Raymond
2:18
Chang. Hello and welcome to the show.
2:20
>> Speaker D: Hey, Loren, it's great to be with you.
2:23
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks. Anything else you want to say about yourself?
2:27
>> Speaker D: I mean, uh, my Social Security number is
2:30
1, 2, 3, 4, 5678.
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>> Loren: Just the last four digits, maybe.
2:34
>> Speaker D: No, I mean, um, yeah, my name is Ray.
2:37
Uh,
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I lived all over the world. Uh,
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I enjoy traveling, although I don't get to do it as much because I
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have a beautiful, uh, baby that's two years old
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and, uh, she occupies most of my free time. And, uh,
2:53
uh, married and happily, uh, married to my lovely
2:56
wife Jessica. And we're just trying to
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advance the kingdom together.
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>> Loren: That's awesome. That's awesome.
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>> Speaker D: Share.
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>> Loren: If you would just come out your faith journey. What that looked like in the
3:05
past, what that looks like today.
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>> Speaker D: Yeah, well, I mean, I got to honor the
3:09
ancestors for me because I have seven
3:12
and eight generations Christian, uh, going back
3:15
and so, uh, I have the privilege of having a long
3:18
heritage of Christianity and faith
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uh, in my family. And uh, that's been a really
3:24
significant and important part of my identity as well
3:27
as uh, I think kind of the
3:30
spirituality that I've embraced and I'm
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trying to carry on and pass on to my daughter,
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um, which is very rare because I'm a Korean American.
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Uh, and ah, the major
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waves of Christianity began in the late
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1800s and 1900s in Korea. And then
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I was born here in the US as the first
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of our generation to do so. So I'm second generation Korean American.
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Um, I've lived all over the world and so I've lived in
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uh, Chicago, Korea, Hawaii, California,
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Guatemala, Panama, Spain, China. Uh,
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and so I feel like I've seen the world and I've seen
4:05
the world's needs and hungers as well as
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the beauty of Christ expressed throughout the. And
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I've seen faith communities flourish in
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places where Christianity isn't welcome
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and faith communities uh, not
4:19
flourish so much in places that think that they're Christian. And
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so just seeing a lot of different uh, things.
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And um, I love the Bible,
4:28
uh, uh, I love everything about
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the activity of God throughout history. Um,
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and I love the Asian American church
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as well as the broader kind of church and the
4:39
immigrant church has really been a significant part of my own formation.
4:42
And so uh, shout out to all those uh, under
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resourced ministers that basically on top of
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a full time job ran uh, a church
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uh, with zero time and zero budget that they had just
4:54
so that they can provide a spiritual community and space
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for people to convene and gather. I don't know if I
5:00
shared a little too much, but that's just a little bit about me.
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>> Loren: No, I appreciate the shout out for bivocational pastors
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and uh, those who do it for love of ministry
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and love of God without a huge
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paycheck. So I appreciate you sharing that.
5:13
Anything else? Uh, we always ask guests anything
5:16
about a spiritual practice or discipline that's meaningful for you.
5:20
>> Speaker D: Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about the difference between
5:23
spiritual practices and spiritual postures, um,
5:26
and how I mean practices are going
5:29
to be a part of our spiritual formation no matter
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what. But um, I
5:35
was reading a book recently and she was articulating
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how uh, the challenge
5:41
of Western Christianity is how
5:44
spiritual formation is viewed in such a linear
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manner that it leads
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to the practices being a kind of
5:52
mastery over God and over your spiritual life
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instead of allowing God to be mastered over you. And I've been thinking
5:58
a lot about that these days and trying to figure out, okay, what are the
6:01
postures I need to embrace so that the practices
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actually bear fruit in a way that's not
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deformative in making me think that I
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can kind of go and, um, master
6:14
Jesus and instead allow myself to be
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mastered by Jesus.
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>> Loren: Oh, that's. That's. That's wise. That's wise.
6:21
I appreciate you sharing that.
6:23
Well, Ray is the author, along with Cara Powell and
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Jake Mulder, of the book Future Focused
6:29
Church. Uh, but rather than do, like, the generic,
6:32
like, oh, what inspired the book, I kind of want to start
6:35
this way because I think this was one of the most
6:37
intriguing lines from the book that y' all
6:40
write, that you believe that the future of the
6:43
church is brighter than the past. And I think
6:46
for many pastors, for many church leaders, for many folks
6:49
even in the pews, that seems pretty shocking
6:52
to hear or to read. So talk about
6:55
that.
6:56
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, we know that. We know the
6:59
data. We know that the church is shrinking, that the
7:02
church is aging, and that the church
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is feeling more and more irrelevant. You know,
7:07
we've seen how, you know,
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political and social
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ideologies have basically split the church
7:16
and defined the church and taken over the church.
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We see how young people are actively leaving the
7:21
church. And so we're not,
7:24
um, naive to those realities.
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But at the same time, the church really
7:30
flourishes when it's squeezed because
7:33
the church tends to have
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to lean in or lean
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away from God in the moments of
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greatest difficulty. Uh, in the US I don't think
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we're quite at the levels of persecution or
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anything like that. But I do know that
7:50
whenever the church is persecuted or whenever the
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church is, um, put in a corner,
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God shows up in some amazing ways because
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the people of God actually begin to depend on God.
8:02
And I think one of the greatest challenges of Christianity
8:05
in the US Right now is that we've created a
8:08
Christian ecosystem in the world world where dependency
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on God is optional. And when you look at the Bible,
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that's never the case. And so,
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um, the other thing we know is
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that nothing is going to prevail against
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the kingdom's advancement. And the primary
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unit and, uh, means by
8:30
which God works is through the church.
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Now, the church might look differently, its form
8:36
might look differently over time, but,
8:38
uh, when people are gathered and they're assembled to
8:41
worship and they meet on a regular basis, and they are,
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uh, worshiping God together, praying with one another,
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serving together, um,
8:51
and meeting with one another and healing each other
8:54
and proclaiming God's Truth and promoting
8:57
justice. We know that good things
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follow because the kingdom is being proclaimed.
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And so in some way we just know that
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Jesus is in control. And all throughout
9:10
history nothing has been able to eliminate the church.
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And we don't think anything's going to be able to do that,
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uh, even if we do it to ourselves.
9:18
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that.
9:21
I want to ask about because I think one of the things that was
9:24
really important, as I
9:27
understand it throughout the book, increasingly
9:29
or repeatedly, excuse me. Was this idea of
9:32
creating culture change in order to create
9:35
lasting change. Do you want to talk more about the importance of
9:38
creating culture change versus just trying to create change
9:41
on its own?
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>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean so you know, culture
9:46
eats strategy for breakfast. Right. And so
9:49
without, and without a vision, people perish. And
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so if you want change to last, it has
9:55
to be deep within the bones of the
9:58
culture, of the community. And
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it's one thing to just have practices or kind
10:05
of a shallow uh, acquiescence.
10:08
It's another thing when people actually uh, kind
10:11
of embrace and internalize and
10:14
the community begins to move in different ways. And
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that's what we're calling for.
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>> Loren: Yeah, well I think it speaks to something else y' all
10:21
write about is that people support what
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they help create. And I think this was interesting because we're
10:28
in our current at least the last 10, 15,
10:30
20 years as society kind of de
10:33
institutionalizes and things become more
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bottom up and even populist. I think in many
10:39
ways, as we're seeing today,
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um, I guess talk about the
10:44
importance of engaging people then. I'm m also curious if you have some
10:47
thoughts on some of the dangers or perhaps
10:49
guardrails you might want to have in place. So it's not
10:52
just like um,
10:56
m majority rules or you know, um,
10:59
whatever the biggest population wants.
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>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean one of the core principles that we
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promote is that people support what
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they have, you know, that they are able to create. I mean I used
11:10
to lead small groups in um, at a Christian
11:13
college. And uh, one of the things that we would always say
11:16
is nobody feels like they're part of the group until
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um, until they hear the sound of their own voice.
11:23
And because of that we know
11:27
that if you're going to do something then you have to
11:30
invite people into it. Otherwise it just becomes
11:33
a mandate where you're just telling people what to do. And so
11:36
people just aren't interested in that. And so one of the things that we
11:39
encourage people to do is to help people create or help
11:42
people participate,
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uh, in the provision of input and,
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and we kind of offer several steps in order to do that.
11:51
Um, you know, uh, that
11:54
the first is figuring uh, out like who
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is a part of this. And one of the things that we encourage
12:00
people to do is create a transformation team if you want
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to lead change within a larger organization, to identify some
12:05
key people out of a diverse
12:08
group of people to help speak into the change that you want
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to see. Um, and then of course,
12:14
as we map out the who, uh, we also want
12:17
to figure out how do we actually help create a
12:20
sense of support, uh, for that.
12:23
And so we want to allow people to
12:26
practice something called keychain leadership, which is,
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uh, handing people more keys,
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uh, that their capabilities,
12:35
power and access that they carry, the potential to empower
12:38
all generations, but especially young people.
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Um, we want to say, hey,
12:44
here are some of the ways that you can
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lead change and be clear with that, with
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the parameters of their authority that you're handing
12:54
to them. And then of course, um,
12:58
thinking about what they create,
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uh, while you hand over these
13:03
substantive keys, clarifying the desired end
13:06
goal and giving all sorts of freedom on how to accomplish the
13:08
goal. One of the things that we want to
13:11
do is invite people to help create God's future
13:14
for our faith community together. And
13:17
a part of it is just asking, asking the right people the right
13:20
questions, um, just having them
13:23
ask questions that are very practical. We offer a bunch of those
13:26
in the book, spend time getting the input
13:29
of those who resist division. I think it's so
13:32
important to spend time getting
13:34
input from those who are kind of resistant.
13:37
And then I think the third thing is, um,
13:40
and actually that I cite my
13:43
father in law, he would always talk, talk
13:46
about the ways that the most passionate people, the people that
13:49
care most about your faith community or your church
13:52
are those that, um,
13:55
oftentimes might resist and that those who might
13:58
resist and challenge are sometimes those who want to protect
14:01
the community. Not just protect their preferences, but
14:04
actually protect the community. Ah.
14:07
And of course, then returning with
14:10
them after you hear the feedback from people,
14:13
uh, to report on how you use the feedback. And
14:16
so there's a few ways that we encourage people to support what
14:19
they, uh, that we encourage people to,
14:21
um, uh, create
14:24
the avenues for people to support what they create.
14:27
>> Loren: In 142, page 142, you talk
14:29
about like a transformation team, their
14:32
leadership, and the threefold process of looking
14:35
back to the past, looking around, and then
14:38
looking forward to the future. So talk about those
14:41
three time frames and why it's important to understand
14:45
all those metrics.
14:48
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So
14:53
we know that God is working
14:57
in, um, eternity past, eternity
15:00
present, eternity future.
15:03
And in our current day and age,
15:07
we, uh, don't have to reinvent the wheel,
15:10
nor do we have to ignore the beautiful
15:12
traditions that have carried us through in the
15:15
past. And so looking at
15:18
through the past, it's helpful to understand
15:23
why your community is where it is. So one of the
15:26
things that we encourage people to do is investigate your church's
15:29
founding narrative. Like, what was it that led
15:31
the church to emerge? Because there's something about
15:34
that that probably still remains in the DNA of the
15:37
community today. And then the other thing we encourage people
15:40
to do when they get past is to, I think it's construct a, uh,
15:43
congregational timeline. So, like, what are some large
15:46
events that had happened throughout history? And then, of course, to
15:49
explore key questions about what things emerged,
15:52
um, in the past, to figure out why certain decisions
15:55
were being made at the time. You know, when were we
15:58
at our best? Uh, when did we. How do
16:01
we handle something similar to what we're hand. How do we handle
16:04
something in the past that was similar to what challenges
16:07
we're facing right now? You know, how have our
16:10
church's culture, uh, leadership kind of helped
16:13
or hindered us? Then we got to look at the present, right?
16:15
Because we know that we can't just live in the past. We
16:18
have to honor the past. But we can't just live in the past and,
16:22
uh, especially honor the good things of the past. And so, uh,
16:25
we want to figure out what is happening
16:27
at the moment. Now, some people are
16:30
so, um, past focused that
16:33
they're living in a heyday that no longer exists.
16:36
And so it's really helpful to name your church's current
16:39
reality. I think the other thing,
16:41
um, that would be helpful is
16:44
to, uh, kind of conduct a swot analysis
16:47
of where you are right now and then
16:49
uncovering some mixed messages,
16:52
um, to make sure that you're not confused in a
16:55
variety of ways. The other thing is looking
16:58
ahead to the future. We want
17:00
people to move from here to there
17:04
with the who and the how, which is our kind of a
17:06
fourfold framework. And you can learn more if you read the book.
17:10
Um, we have to think about,
17:13
uh, in terms of the future, what are some of the obstacles that are going to be
17:15
there, uh, on the way there, what are some problems and
17:18
opportunities, what are some barriers and
17:21
challenges? And then, of course,
17:24
why we're trying to move to the there. What
17:27
is it that needs to lead to the change?
17:30
Because sometimes we don't articulate all these things. Or we don't even take
17:33
the time to reflect on what's happened in the past and what's
17:36
happening now. We come up with
17:39
visions that might not be tethered to
17:42
our current reality or even our past reality.
17:44
And so those are some of the things that we want to encourage people
17:47
on.
17:48
>> Loren: Well, speaking of doing the long, hard work, this
17:51
struck Me too. Page
17:53
166 you write about. Pastoral and
17:56
congregational imagination don't
17:59
simply happen overnight, but the result of, uh, faithful
18:02
and intentional work honed over time.
18:05
I feel like this is like the one
18:08
missing ingredient that is so often lacking is just that
18:11
time part. And part of it is, I don't know
18:14
if you'd agree, but it seems like churches just wait too long to do
18:17
this. So by time they get to what
18:19
feels like a crisis opportunity or crisis
18:22
moment, that they're just like, we need to make decisions now. Like,
18:26
you know, there's eight people in worship, or the
18:28
budget is like in a disaster scenario or what have you,
18:32
uh, talk more about that faithful
18:35
and intentional work honed over time.
18:38
>> Speaker D: Um, so one of the things that we encourage people to do is
18:41
maintain disciplined, um, action
18:44
and attention. And the reason
18:47
we encourage this is because change
18:49
efforts require intentionality.
18:52
They're not just willy nilly, they
18:55
aren't just something that you kind of just decide one
18:58
moment and you don't have to continue on with. And
19:01
so that's a big part of, um, what we
19:04
try to emphasize and we try to walk people through.
19:07
Um, mostly because
19:10
if you are leading change,
19:13
it's likely that as you
19:16
go through the process, things are going to change
19:19
in your change process. And
19:22
so you might decide that you're moving in a direction
19:25
and then realize, oh, this isn't the right direction. But we
19:27
know that these steps that we've taken here
19:31
are the right steps, but these steps are not.
19:34
And, and so if you're not disciplined,
19:36
you can literally just throw the baby out
19:39
with the bathwater and go in one direction instead of another.
19:42
And one of the things that we really want people to do is,
19:45
um, just to
19:48
know where they're going. Because otherwise
19:51
you end up packing with, um, whatever
19:54
wind blows.
19:54
>> Loren: Uh, it's interesting that you use the word
19:57
discipline because I'm thinking about how in the
20:00
book y' all talk about everything in church
20:03
being fundamentally about discipleship. You
20:06
know, you use that reference of what from
20:09
James, right, Chapter one of being
20:13
blown about by the wind. If I'm thinking of the right text,
20:17
talk more about
20:20
the importance of these things being grounded in
20:23
discipleship I mean.
20:25
>> Speaker D: Everything we do should be grounded in discipleship.
20:28
Right. Uh, one of the great mandates is to go and make
20:30
disciples of all nations, teaching and
20:33
baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. And
20:36
so that is a big piece
20:39
for us, uh, that we are trying to, uh,
20:42
emphasize and lean into. And so,
20:44
um, yeah, I don't think
20:47
that anything we do should be
20:49
untethered from our commitment to discipleship.
20:52
In fact, our first key checkpoint is relationally
20:55
discipling young people. Because that
20:58
seems like, uh, something that the church claims to
21:01
do but doesn't often do enough,
21:04
especially when you kind of look under the hood.
21:07
And so discipleship is central to everything that we're doing. Is
21:10
that answering your question?
21:11
>> Loren: Yeah, uh, yeah, because I'm thinking about it through the lens of
21:14
having a groundedness or a foundation
21:17
or something holding.
21:20
I mean, there's lots of data right out about
21:25
how young people are shifting so
21:27
significantly, especially apart from each other. Like, like young men and young
21:30
women are like going to opposite poles.
21:33
And it seems like many of these social
21:36
movements that were like, oh, like we can count on young
21:39
people for equity and justice causes,
21:42
it seems to me that because so many of them didn't
21:45
have the foundational grounding, a
21:47
Christian word, we might say, of discipleship, like, to me
21:50
it seems like that's why folks can be so
21:53
easily swayed against these same kind of
21:56
social ground, good causes. Uh, so I'm wondering
21:59
similarly, can that happen like in church where
22:02
folks don't really understand like why we're making these changes,
22:05
why we're trying to do this? It's because discipleship,
22:08
because we're discipling him, like faithfulness
22:11
to God and the gospel message of
22:14
Jesus.
22:15
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, uh, we have to start with why
22:18
and like, we have to begin with why. It's really important to
22:21
continue to articulate the why and then
22:24
go back to the why over and over and over. Because we can easily
22:27
drift away from the mission, we can easily drift away from the
22:30
purpose. We can do a lot of what. And the what
22:32
really doesn't matter unless it's tethered to uh, a compelling
22:35
and substantive why.
22:38
And so yes to everything that you're saying.
22:41
>> Loren: Do you think, then thinking
22:43
about, you all write about the importance of follow through.
22:46
Do you think that why, again, that ah, disableship
22:49
why is also important? Because if we
22:52
don't really understand the why, we're going to lack
22:55
that, that endurance, that
22:57
perseverance.
22:59
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I think that's uh, that. Yeah, I think so
23:02
because why is the motivation behind things. And
23:05
so it's also the kind of the,
23:08
the root reason for why we do things. And
23:11
so I would say
23:13
yes. Uh, I mean there's two
23:16
ways in which you can motivate people. You can either kind of
23:19
dictate the terms and tell them this is what we're doing, or you
23:22
can compel them and motivate them by showing them
23:25
the deeper reasons into know
23:28
what you are doing, uh,
23:31
and why you're doing them. And so when people understand
23:34
the why, the
23:37
nature of a, uh, compelling move oftentimes work.
23:40
>> Loren: And that's I guess, the big time challenge. Right. Because doing
23:44
that why work of
23:46
explaining the why takes so much more time and buy
23:49
in than just mandating. This
23:52
is what we're doing and this is when we're going to do it and
23:55
so forth. Right?
23:58
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, I think the why work
24:00
is taking the time to sit down
24:03
with someone that might not understand what you're doing and
24:06
why you're doing it, uh, explaining it to them
24:09
sometimes multiple times, especially if it's
24:13
uh, significantly different than what you've been doing in the past,
24:17
uh, especially if it disrupts what you,
24:20
um, uh, what they're accustomed to.
24:24
And this is partially why we encourage people to begin with
24:26
listening or start with listening.
24:28
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:28
>> Speaker D: And then to listen really for the losses that people might be
24:31
experiencing.
24:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:32
>> Speaker D: Because when you do like, you can understand
24:35
that they have a why, that they're operating what
24:37
operating with. And their why might
24:40
be just as, just as significant as your
24:43
why and you just don't know, you
24:46
know, like why that is. And so,
24:49
um, yeah, so I, but so the
24:52
explanation of the why is,
24:55
is, is really important. But you also have to know
24:57
that sometimes you might, and it might not
25:00
land and require you to sit
25:03
with things or even change your own mind on
25:06
some things. Or if you feel like
25:10
you uh, have the authority and you think that the community
25:12
will go with you to say, and you
25:15
have a very clear idea of what needs to be done.
25:18
But it's hard to convince everyone else,
25:21
um, to work
25:23
with as many people but then try to figure out like
25:26
what do you do with the person that will not follow
25:29
and actually wrestle through, think about those things
25:32
and try to um, ensure uh,
25:35
that they are cared for in the process.
25:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:38
So let's talk more about that because again, I'm thinking of kids. I
25:41
mean your kid is young, right? What'd you say, one? Two?
25:46
>> Speaker D: Uh, she's two.
25:47
>> Loren: Yeah. So you don't have to deal with too much of this, I suppose, quite
25:50
yet. But why?
25:52
>> Speaker D: Why, why?
25:54
>> Loren: As she continues to grow older, they get
25:57
from experience, they get less compliant, so to
26:00
speak. And as a parent,
26:03
we can explain all we want, like the rationale why
26:05
they need to brush their teeth or take a bath or
26:09
do their homework. Uh, but it seems
26:11
like maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like in every
26:14
parent's life, perhaps also in every leader's life,
26:17
there needs to be some kind of. There's got to be
26:20
some kind of moment of truth where it's like
26:23
we're doing this my way or the
26:26
highway, and maybe certainly not frame it that way.
26:29
But, I mean, what about
26:32
when we come to those real hard points in the
26:34
road where clearly it's like
26:37
we need to go left, but
26:40
they want to go right. You talked about
26:43
carrying through that. Talk a little bit more about that.
26:46
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, at some point, there are
26:49
decisions that have to be made that
26:53
are not going to be easy for everyone. And the
26:56
best thing you can do in those moments is to be as
26:58
pastoral as possible. Make sure you've done the
27:01
job of listening and actually listening
27:04
deeply. Uh, because a lot of people listen just
27:07
to move on. And so you don't listen just
27:10
to check a box, but you listen to hear the heart. And
27:13
if they're saying something in a way that you might not be
27:15
understanding, then I would say
27:18
it's incumbent on the leader to draw out the
27:20
clarity they need from someone. Because oftentimes,
27:25
especially if you're a spiritual kind of authority
27:28
or you sign their paycheck,
27:31
they can't be as candid and honest as they
27:34
want with you. And so you're going to have to find ways to draw that
27:37
out by being someone that's safe
27:40
to share those things. And then from
27:43
that place, it's like, if you really can't move in a
27:45
direction that's together,
27:48
um, you know, like letting them know,
27:51
you know, like, I like. And hopefully
27:54
you had other people in the community to share this, like, to
27:56
discern with you. But, you know, I think at the end of the day,
27:59
it's, you know, that there has to be some decision made.
28:02
And the reason you're leading the change is because the, uh,
28:05
status quo is untenable.
28:07
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where it's helpful.
28:10
I'm appreciating so much of what you're saying about understanding
28:13
their why, because I can imagine if you're
28:16
really listening well, understanding their why,
28:19
there might be some opportunity for connection
28:23
or at minimum, maybe just some kind of
28:27
respectful agree to disagree
28:30
situation where it doesn't have to be,
28:33
ah, harsher or
28:36
grading is the word I'm looking for.
28:38
>> Speaker D: Yeah, no, I mean, if someone
28:41
feels. I mean, I think our job as leaders
28:44
is always to, um,
28:47
treat people with the dignity that they deserve. And
28:51
the way, you know, you
28:54
hold them to a dignified regard
28:57
is how you engage
29:00
with them in differences and differences of
29:02
opinion. And if you can't handle their
29:05
objections or their questions or their,
29:08
um, uh,
29:12
challenges, then,
29:13
uh, I'd be more
29:16
concerned about
29:20
the state of the leader that's trying to lead
29:23
than the person that's offering the
29:26
concerns and vocalizing them. Because
29:30
again, if we believe in the imago DEI in
29:33
everybody, and we believe that everyone has a very unique
29:36
and important vantage point, and that even
29:39
if they're not right or we agree with them on everything, there are
29:42
some things that we can agree with them on. And so trying to figure out
29:45
where those alignments are and agreements are, and then
29:48
figuring out, like, okay, are they actually right or are they
29:50
not? Because sometimes the people that we
29:54
least want to listen to are the prophets. And
29:56
we know that
30:00
God sent prophets, uh, to be among
30:02
us so that we can align with his heart
30:05
and will. And whenever that the people of God
30:08
didn't listen to the prophets, trouble
30:11
ensued. But they were always
30:13
inconvenience. Right. Prophets were never a convenience
30:16
to the community.
30:18
>> Loren: I'm thinking about this way too, about commonality, like,
30:21
uh, we can at least have in common with people.
30:24
Imago dei, all
30:27
were created in the image of God and Christ died for all. So we have that
30:30
in common. Right.
30:32
Let's do one more question before we take a break. This
30:35
was kind of a funny thing when I read it because it's so
30:38
obvious, yet not
30:41
so simple, but so many miss it.
30:44
Why is the worship service the worst
30:47
place to initiate change?
30:49
>> Speaker D: Yeah, um, because that's usually like the.
30:51
>> Loren: First place we go.
30:53
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, because I think,
30:55
um, a lot of people think if you want to change,
30:58
I think that inherently we all know that if you want
31:01
to change culture, go to the places where
31:04
the masses are. And m. The one place
31:07
everyone is gathered is going to be the
31:10
worship service on a weekend.
31:12
And so you want to initiate change, that's where you
31:15
initiate change. And sometimes that's appropriate.
31:18
Like sometimes you need to lead through
31:21
the pulpit. And we saw that with the
31:24
civil rights movement. We saw that through other kind of
31:27
major movements, uh, in the church.
31:29
Um, and
31:33
we should certainly lean on that where
31:36
it's appropriate and needed vast
31:39
majority of change efforts within a community, because communities
31:41
are essentially organisms that
31:45
have established ways of knowing, being,
31:48
and doing. Uh, sometimes it's
31:50
helpful to introduce new things from
31:53
the edges. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do is experiment
31:56
from the edges, because change is always going to be disruptive.
32:00
And if you lead
32:03
change out the gate, you might shock the system
32:07
to the degree that I don't know who.
32:10
I was just talking. Was it. You just said the thing about the
32:12
carpets and the music. I literally was just having
32:15
a conversation today where a new
32:18
worship leader came in and was
32:21
completely disrupting the entire traditional
32:24
service. And in his mind. And
32:27
it's not. I wasn't having this conversation with you. I was having.
32:30
>> Loren: No, but keep going, Keep going.
32:32
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Um, and in
32:34
his mind, he was, like, softly introducing new things,
32:38
but he was doing it at the main sanctuary in the
32:41
center of it all. And I said, you have
32:44
a church where there
32:47
are 50
32:50
years of people being accustomed to one
32:53
type of worship. The best
32:55
way to do that is by starting to introduce
32:58
new music in other venues.
33:01
Maybe you start in the foyer and the lobby
33:04
where they're introduced to different type of music.
33:07
Maybe it's not the Sunday morning service, but the
33:10
Sunday evening service. Maybe it's something
33:12
else, you know? And so those are some of the things that we should think about.
33:15
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh, those things can
33:18
be interesting.
33:19
Well, let's take a quick break week. We'll come back with some closing
33:22
questions.
33:26
Okay. We're back with Pastor Raymond Chang. Really appreciate
33:29
this conversation. For our guests, we always tell
33:32
them, you can take these closing questions as seriously or not
33:35
as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day,
33:39
what might that day look like for you?
33:41
>> Speaker D: I mean, if I was Pope for the day, I'd probably want
33:44
to drive around in the Vatican mobile.
33:47
So that's probably what I want to do the whole day. And just like the Pope
33:49
mobile, go around Rome and
33:52
hang, uh, out, eat some gelato, and then spend
33:55
time with those that are most
33:58
hungry for kind of spiritual
34:01
nourishment. Um, because there is a
34:04
unique place and space for clergy to be
34:07
amongst the people. And so I'd probably do one of two
34:10
things. I'd do the popemobile thing for fun
34:12
and eat some gelato in Rome, and then
34:15
I'd probably spend time with the poor.
34:18
>> Loren: Hey, that's good. That's good. That's funny.
34:21
The. The episode we just released, the. The guy gave the
34:24
same Answer. Popemobile through, a drive through. So. Makes
34:26
sense.
34:28
>> Speaker D: Well, if he gave that answer or she gave that answer, then I'd
34:31
probably say if I was pope for the day,
34:33
um, I'd wanna, uh, add
34:36
a stroke of paint to the Sistine
34:39
Chapel.
34:41
>> Loren: Now we're really getting, really getting
34:44
sacrilegious.
34:45
Okay. Um, a historical Christian figure you'd want to
34:48
meet or bring back to life besides Jesus.
34:51
Yes.
34:51
>> Speaker D: Well, Jesus is still alive.
34:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:53
>> Speaker D: Um, I mean, probably Martin
34:56
Luther King Jr. There's so much I want to learn, you know, from
34:59
his life.
35:02
>> Loren: Okay. Um, what do you think history will
35:04
remember from our current time and place?
35:07
>> Speaker D: Political syncretism. I think
35:10
that history will look back
35:12
on the church as widely
35:15
being syncretistic with
35:18
politics.
35:19
>> Loren: Mhm.
35:20
>> Speaker D: And simultaneously silent
35:22
in addressing it.
35:26
>> Loren: That's the most interesting response I've heard of that
35:29
in some time.
35:32
And it's dead on.
35:35
Like, I was just having that conversation, but not in that way,
35:39
the way you're framing that. Really,
35:42
really accurate.
35:44
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
35:45
>> Loren: Really accurate.
35:46
>> Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is churches. Churches
35:49
are already feeling the dividedness, you know, that they
35:51
are trying to be a church that is, you know, either
35:54
multicolored or purple.
35:57
And the reality, uh, is what that often means
36:00
is that they, they don't engage with any
36:03
of the things that they need to be engaged with when it comes to
36:06
politics.
36:07
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you hope for the future
36:09
of Christianity?
36:11
>> Speaker D: So besides the obvious answer
36:15
of the church being future focused along the lines of what
36:18
we're writing about in the book.
36:19
>> Loren: Right.
36:20
>> Speaker D: I, uh, really think that I would
36:23
love the church to better reflect the
36:26
kingdom of God and,
36:29
uh, reflect the kingdom of God in ways that
36:33
is so compelling that it doesn't
36:36
need power
36:39
in order to be relevant,
36:43
but that it simply needs to love
36:46
and speak the truth
36:49
and serve the needy and
36:52
care for the hungry and
36:57
prioritize the poor
37:00
in ways that we saw Jesus doing.
37:03
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Appreciate
37:06
the conversation. Do you want to share how folks can
37:09
connect with you? Get the book, all that?
37:11
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Connect with me on social media. I'm on,
37:14
uh, all the major platforms. Uh, you can find me
37:17
on Facebook, on Instagram, on bluesky,
37:20
on Twitter. I'm trying to figure out if I need to be on TikTok
37:23
or not. I never want to be one of those people
37:26
that try to dance on TikTok. If you ever see me do
37:28
that, um, feel free to send me a private
37:31
message shaming me, uh, so that I am not one
37:34
of those Christians that do the dancing stuff.
37:37
Uh, no. Shade to those that do. I get it. It's just
37:40
not me. Um, and then,
37:43
uh, yeah, so
37:46
Instagram is raychang502. Um,
37:49
Twitter is Tweet Ray Tang. And then if you're
37:52
interested in, uh, connecting with, uh, us, it's
37:54
futurefocuschurch.com, you can get the book.
37:57
Um, and, uh, I also lead the
38:00
Asian American Christian Collaborative. And so you can go to aacristcollab.
38:03
I am with the 10x10 collaboration and so you can go
38:06
1010. Org. There are so many
38:09
links that you should follow and so check out all
38:12
of them.
38:13
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time
38:16
your the conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of
38:19
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
38:22
>> Speaker D: Peace with you too.
38:30
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
38:33
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
38:37
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
38:40
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
38:42
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38:45
and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
38:48
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38:51
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39:00
peace.