Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Would you LITERALLY kill for NBA tickets? PLUS: Bigamist marries mom, then her teen daughter, then racy photos!

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Would you LITERALLY kill for NBA tickets? PLUS: Bigamist marries mom, then her teen daughter, then racy photos! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace now online at crime online
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Speaker 1: dot com and on Sirius x M. Crime Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace now online at crime online dot com and
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Speaker 1: on sirius XMO. To have and to hold till death
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Speaker 1: do us part? Or maybe not death. Maybe bigamy with
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Speaker 1: his wife's daughter. Yes, you heard me right. A man
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Speaker 1: marries his wife's daughter and then sends the wife photos
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Speaker 1: of them he and her daughter in bed together. Let's
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Speaker 1: just start with that scenario. You know, isn't it a
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Speaker 1: shame they got rid of the death penalty for everything
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Speaker 1: but murder because this guy. Okay, I Nancy Grace, this
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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I'm
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Speaker 1: talking about one Christopher I Hartman, age forty four. That's
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Speaker 1: old enough to know better. He was married to Shannon Dietrich,
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Speaker 1: but then, when the love light dimmed, married her daughter, Kelly. Whoopsie.
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Speaker 1: Not only did he marry his wife's daughter, he forgot
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Speaker 1: the formality of a thing called divorce. Now, Dave Max,
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Speaker 1: syndicated radio host, you and I don't always see I I,
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Speaker 1: but I think we can agree on the facts in
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Speaker 1: the scenario. Kick it off, start at the get go.
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Speaker 1: I don't want you to leave one detail out, not
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Speaker 1: one sort of detail. Start at the beginning, Dave mac
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Speaker 1: all right, this guy is a bail bondsman, okay, And
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Speaker 1: he marries a woman and um they she has a daughter.
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Speaker 1: The daughter is in her teens. This guy, as you mentioned,
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Speaker 1: is in his forties and old enough to know better.
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Speaker 1: Mary's a woman that she thinks everything is just fine,
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Speaker 1: and then without divorcing her only a year later, marries
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Speaker 1: her eighteen year old daughter. And it wasn't by mistake.
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Speaker 1: He didn't get divorced from his wife when he married
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Speaker 1: her daughter. He just changed his name and lied on
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Speaker 1: legal documents so that he could then marry the daughter
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Speaker 1: to whom he is still married. By the way, now
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Speaker 1: old on, Dave Mack, the very first fact that you
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Speaker 1: thought was important to bring up is that Hoptman is
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Speaker 1: a bail bondsman. Let me tell you something that the
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Speaker 1: bail bonding offices were about two blocks from the courthouse
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Speaker 1: when I was a felony prosecutor for ten years in
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Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta, and of course on my government pay,
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Speaker 1: I couldn't afford the parking deck a loss the street
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Speaker 1: from the courthouse. I would have to go to the
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Speaker 1: one with the chipped up asphalt about eight or nine
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Speaker 1: blocks away, dragging all of my stuff with me from trial,
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Speaker 1: and I would have to pass bail bondsman after bondsman
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Speaker 1: after bondsman, and I actually would spend many an afternoon
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Speaker 1: after work sitting in the bail bondsman's office, um waiting
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Speaker 1: to hook up with um my best friend who was
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Speaker 1: a defense attorney, or my then boyfriend who was now
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Speaker 1: my husband. You know, it's kind of like a little
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Speaker 1: pit stop. So please don't trash the bail bond industry.
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Speaker 1: Okay you said. Now Here's what I'm pointing out is
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Speaker 1: that he's a bail bondsman, but he couldn't man he is.
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Speaker 1: He spent three two days in jail. He's a bail
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Speaker 1: bondsman that could not get himself bailed out. That's that's
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Speaker 1: not enough as far as I'm concerned. So by the
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Speaker 1: time I investigate it, or could come in from investigating
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Speaker 1: one case to meet me at my car as again, again,
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Speaker 1: I state was about ten blocks away. I just sit
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Speaker 1: there in the bell bondsman's office. That of course, let
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Speaker 1: me come in and sit there in wait for Ernest
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Speaker 1: to show up for us to go out looking for
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Speaker 1: some witness or to serve subpoenas at night, good times,
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Speaker 1: So don't trash the bell bond industry. And I want,
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Speaker 1: I don't understand. Also joining me in addition to Dave Max,
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Speaker 1: syndicated show host Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologists and
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Speaker 1: host of Investigation Discoveries hit show Fatal Vows with Me
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Speaker 1: high profile criminal profile or you know her well, Pat Brown.
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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, please help me with this. Why does
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Speaker 1: a man get married his wife is beautiful, okay, Why
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Speaker 1: out of all the people to pick in the entire world,
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Speaker 1: does he have to marry her daughter, her teen daughter,
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Speaker 1: and then since those of them in bed to her, Well, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: you sound so incredulous. I mean, I am. We didn't
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Speaker 1: gotten making Georgia. It's the classic American love story. You
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Speaker 1: get married within a year, you fall for your spouses kid,
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Speaker 1: and you go ahead. You don't want to hurt your
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Speaker 1: spouses feelings, so you go ahead and marry the kid. Also,
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Speaker 1: I mean it's you mean you have But you know what, Brian,
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Speaker 1: I know you don't get this much and investigation Discovery,
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Speaker 1: but just just hush for a moment because I can't
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Speaker 1: even take it. You're making my teeth heart, Pat Brown,
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Speaker 1: have you seen this guy? Have you seen Hartman? I mean,
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Speaker 1: he's not all that and a bag of chips. I
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Speaker 1: would not totally not leave my husband for this guy
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Speaker 1: based on looks alone. Well have you seen it? I
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Speaker 1: have seen him. But let's let's let's step back and say,
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Speaker 1: you know, yes, we can't face everything on looks because
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Speaker 1: sometimes for personality, but you have to really under this guy.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about bail bondsman. Yes, we don't want to
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Speaker 1: say pat pat Pat Pat, Pat Pat pat pat. Speaking
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Speaker 1: of picking a mate, can we go back to my
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Speaker 1: decision to marry David Lynch, my current husband and the
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Speaker 1: father of my children. You know what, um? I like
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Speaker 1: somebody with smarts and with a good sense of humor,
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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, And that's what David has. Uh
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Speaker 1: God bless him. He picks up with me. But this guy,
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Speaker 1: Christopher Hartman, I don't think he has um my sense
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Speaker 1: of humor because I don't think the photos of him
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Speaker 1: with his wife's daughter in bed is very funny. Wait
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Speaker 1: about wait a bitue. Let's go back though. What I'm
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Speaker 1: trying to say is this is that First of all,
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Speaker 1: we don't know about the woman who was involved with
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Speaker 1: him and what her standards were for what she was married.
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Speaker 1: What I was trying to say was he has a
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Speaker 1: hack of a criminal history along with his bill to
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Speaker 1: talk about a thing bad about it, He's got it.
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Speaker 1: He's got a criminal. He's got a criminal talk about
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Speaker 1: had a really shady pest. Can we talk about his
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Speaker 1: criminal history? I mean Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host
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Speaker 1: of Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery. I mean, doesn't everybody
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Speaker 1: run their spouses wrap shade or is it just me?
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Speaker 1: You know? Uh? This is actually interesting, Nancy, because there's
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Speaker 1: research out there to suggest that when people get married
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Speaker 1: in the United States of America, they typically know less
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Speaker 1: about each other than when they go into business with somebody.
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Speaker 1: So if I'm starting a business with you, uh, and
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Speaker 1: I'm an American, I tend to want to know more
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Speaker 1: about you than if I am contemplating spending the rest
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Speaker 1: of my life with you, having children with you. Uh.
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Speaker 1: It's crazy but true. Another thing I think about this
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Speaker 1: case is, obviously, uh, there is some strain, to say
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Speaker 1: the very least, in the relation ship between this woman
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Speaker 1: and her daughter. Uh. Certainly not your typical classic American
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Speaker 1: mother daughter relationships. So I think this woman's judgment uh,
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Speaker 1: you know what, I feel sorry for her in a
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Speaker 1: way for being uh, you know, the victim of the
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Speaker 1: bigamy and all that. But I have a feeling, uh,
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Speaker 1: there's some pretty significant judgment issues with her. Well wait
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Speaker 1: a minute, so she's got a judgment problem. I think
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Speaker 1: we all have had judgment problems. Brian Russell, Are you
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Speaker 1: trying to turn this around on the woman on the victim,
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Speaker 1: the wife? What am I hearing that she had a
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Speaker 1: judgment problem? What about him? Well? What about him? I mean,
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Speaker 1: he's the one that committed bigamy with the woman's daughter.
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Speaker 1: And I look, I'm not dragging the little girl. She's
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Speaker 1: a teen she knows nothing. Thank God, nobody's holding me
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Speaker 1: accountable for the things I did when I was a teenager.
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Speaker 1: So I don't even want to bring the girl into this.
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Speaker 1: She's a teenager. You know, she's probably right now at
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Speaker 1: you and gum and singing a Taylor Swift song. She's like,
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Speaker 1: totally mindless. It's him, He's the one, Brian Russell. Brian,
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Speaker 1: I'm a tiny bit ashamed of you. This document's big
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Speaker 1: of me, he's having sex with a woman's daughter, and
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Speaker 1: you say she's the one with a judgment problem. Well,
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Speaker 1: we're but we're making an assumption here that this is
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Speaker 1: all very as shocking and upsetting to this woman as
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Speaker 1: it is to us. And all I'm suggesting here is
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Speaker 1: that what we see on fatal vows is dysfunctionality tends
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Speaker 1: to gravitate to its own level and and uh almost
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Speaker 1: seek out other dysfunctionality oftentimes. So because he is a
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Speaker 1: big amist, uh drug felon and now has four counts
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Speaker 1: of weapons charges, she is the one that has a
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Speaker 1: judgment issue. Why don't you just go ahead and call
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Speaker 1: her hysterical? Throw that in there too, Pat Brown, are
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Speaker 1: you hearing this? At least I've got you by my
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Speaker 1: side on this back get back. I'm I'm in total
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Speaker 1: agreement with Bryant because here we here's what we got.
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Speaker 1: He's psychopathic. There's no question he's a psychopathic criminals scuzz bag.
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Speaker 1: I mean, he has so many there's so much evidence
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Speaker 1: that he's a scuz bag in so many ways. There
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Speaker 1: is no way that you can hook up for this
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Speaker 1: guy and not know his scuz bagginess, you know, And
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Speaker 1: you're gonna bring that scuzs bag into your house with
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Speaker 1: your teenage daughter. I'm not saying. And that's he said.
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Speaker 1: He is the evil dude, but she is kind of Uh.
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Speaker 1: She she made a really really bunch of bad choices
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Speaker 1: when she brought him into a home and she had
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Speaker 1: the choice about his how horrible he was, she she
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Speaker 1: just had Yeah, she had to know that, and she
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Speaker 1: made a judgment. And then what I tell women, you
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Speaker 1: gotta stop thinking, you know, will you always say to
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Speaker 1: the man, you know, stop thinking with it, you know
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Speaker 1: your male parts, Well, women, stop thinking with your female parts,
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Speaker 1: and that that oh he's paying the attention. Oh my god,
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Speaker 1: I just have to have some love in my life.
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Speaker 1: I just need to have a man. You gotta stop
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Speaker 1: thinking that way when you got a teenage girl in
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Speaker 1: your house. You can't bring a guy in who's got
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Speaker 1: that much of a crap the history and honestly crappy behavior.
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Speaker 1: She had to have known an unfortunate thing that when
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Speaker 1: she got into it, it got worse than she probably
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Speaker 1: ever thought it would be. But you don't put that
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Speaker 1: kind of man in your house with your teenage daughter,
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Speaker 1: because that's psycho Basically, what are you saying I'm bored
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Speaker 1: with you know, hey, I got some better stuff here.
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Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking, Okay, you know what, I'm
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Speaker 1: totally totally outnumbered on this, but I don't care. I'm
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Speaker 1: gonna go down finding Alan Duke. You're out there somewhere,
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Speaker 1: lurking in l A. You're on the other end of
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Speaker 1: this wire. And if you do not take my side
11:33
Speaker 1: right now, fur is gonna fly, Buddy, fur is gonna fly.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, I gotta get some more facts. But while
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Speaker 1: I'll give Ellen Duke a moment to compose himself and
11:43
Speaker 1: come up with the right answer. Alan Dave Max syndicated
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Speaker 1: talk show host. So he doesn't even bother to deny
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Speaker 1: it in court, and he plays no contest, which means
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Speaker 1: no low contender, which means I don't admit it, and
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Speaker 1: I don't ny it. Nancy, here's the other kick tall
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Speaker 1: this and I believe it. I'm on your side on this. Okay.
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Speaker 1: This guy played the mom and the daughter against one another.
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Speaker 1: Then when he got the daughter where he wanted her
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Speaker 1: and the you gotta remember teenage girls and their moms
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Speaker 1: oftentime become competitive. I've got that, I've my wife, I've
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Speaker 1: got teen daughter. I mean, I understand how this guy
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Speaker 1: in the middle Dave, Dave, Dave. My daughter Lucy, ten
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Speaker 1: years old. She runs the whole house. We're not competing,
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Speaker 1: she wins. Everybody may want to go for Indian if
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Speaker 1: she goes, I don't want Indian. Mom. It's all, what
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Speaker 1: do you want Lucy? Because she'll go somewhere and just
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Speaker 1: not eat right or whatever you do, she'll just just
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Speaker 1: forget it. It's just easier to go along with miss
12:51
Speaker 1: you have to do something really bad like hit her
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Speaker 1: brother or not do her homework or well, let me
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Speaker 1: give you I guess that's not really spend a little
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Speaker 1: bit of info about this scumbag. He gets the girl eighteen,
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Speaker 1: and the pictures that we saw, he actually forced her
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Speaker 1: to dye her hair the same color as her mom's
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Speaker 1: and had her make her hair and makeup look like
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Speaker 1: her mom's. So it was like he had the mom
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Speaker 1: at forty three and the mom at eighteen. And that's
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Speaker 1: the pictures he sent of him having sex with her
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Speaker 1: in bed to the mom. So this guy is jacked
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Speaker 1: up on every level he can. It's freaky that he
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Speaker 1: made the girl dye her hair to look more like
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Speaker 1: the mother. Okay, Dr Brian Russell, you're the psychologist. I
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Speaker 1: think we need to shrink prawn. Well, so, you know,
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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what has meant by he forced her
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Speaker 1: to do it. Well, I'm hearing a lot of allegations
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Speaker 1: in the media lately that, uh, this person forced me
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Speaker 1: to do this, and that person forced me to do that,
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Speaker 1: and and I think you know that my under standing
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Speaker 1: of forced is put a gun to your head or
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Speaker 1: a knife to your throat. Uh. I think a lot
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Speaker 1: of people, though, are using forced synonymously with uh, demanded
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Speaker 1: or asked me repeatedly or whatever. So I'm not sure
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Speaker 1: that maybe the daughter wasn't trying to uh, you know,
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Speaker 1: attract this guy away from the mom. Pause. Brian Russell,
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Speaker 1: why do you keep trying to blame the women in
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Speaker 1: this scenario. First she blamed the wife, who has done
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Speaker 1: nothing wrong. Now you're trying to blame the team girl, who,
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Speaker 1: as I said, it's probably chewing a mouthful of gum
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Speaker 1: right now, bopping around to Katie Perry or something. She
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Speaker 1: doesn't have it. She has no clue about what is
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Speaker 1: happening around her. Okay, she has no idea. She's out
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Speaker 1: of this. It's him, Russell, he is the one that
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Speaker 1: has committed big Amaye. I agree with you, but we
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Speaker 1: know he's got what charges. He's got a drug conviction,
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Speaker 1: he has got weapons charges, he's used alias is how
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Speaker 1: are the women to blame in this scenario, Brian, nobody's
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Speaker 1: to blame for a hair dye job. I mean, anybody
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Speaker 1: could dye their hair whatever color they want. I'm just saying,
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Speaker 1: and I don't know what hair is anymore. I did
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Speaker 1: this when I was fourteen. I have no recollection of
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Speaker 1: my life before blonde. Okay, so please don't even start
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Speaker 1: with that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
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Speaker 1: the bigamy and sending your wife photos of you having
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Speaker 1: teen sex with her daughter. That's what I'm talking about, Brian.
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Speaker 1: Russell's the women twisted and sadistic. Of course, I just
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Speaker 1: don't know how he forced to dye your hair. Are
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Speaker 1: you back on the hair? What is it with you
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Speaker 1: in the dyeing the hair blonde? We're not talking about that, Brian.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about Biga medy hair. I'm gonna go to
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Speaker 1: Pat Brown. That's your that's your punishment, Pat Brown, you
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Speaker 1: are not signing with me, and I don't take to
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Speaker 1: it very kindly. How can everybody be pointing the finger
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Speaker 1: and the wife and the daughter when this guy as
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Speaker 1: a criminal record, uses alias's, has gun charges hanging against
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Speaker 1: him and is sending photos of him in bed with
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Speaker 1: the girl? What? What? What is going on here? I
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Speaker 1: think it's going back to that old story. He knew
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Speaker 1: I was a snake, but you expect I was a snake.
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Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. This man is a psychopath,
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Speaker 1: There's no question, a psychopath of the d degree. He
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Speaker 1: enjoys getting what he wants and everything is about him
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Speaker 1: and his pleasures. I'm sure when he maybe I don't
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Speaker 1: know what happened between him and the mother, you know,
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Speaker 1: maybe she she didn't leave him, so I don't know
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Speaker 1: what happened there. This may be his way of getting
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Speaker 1: back at her. This Maybe he made this think ha ha,
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Speaker 1: this was hot. I could have sex with a brother
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Speaker 1: and the daughter. Hey, let me send pictures. Little piss
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Speaker 1: her off. Look, you know I can show her up.
16:53
Speaker 1: You know, you know he who knows what he's doing,
16:56
Speaker 1: but he's doing it off for his own pleasure? Is
16:58
Speaker 1: he is being statistics and that you know that's a
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Speaker 1: part of power. And control that that that psychopaths like.
17:04
Speaker 1: The narrator is kind of curious why you even bothered
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Speaker 1: with that because he could just you know, just there's
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Speaker 1: a lib luler. Why he went through the process of
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Speaker 1: marrying her, making her honorable woman. That's really hard to say.
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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure what the reasons he had through
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Speaker 1: doing that, what purpose it served for him. But everything
17:21
Speaker 1: comes down when he comes to a psychopath, he's doing
17:24
Speaker 1: whatever he wants and he's he's like, you know, he's
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Speaker 1: he's he is what he is. That's why I think
17:28
Speaker 1: Brian is saying what he's saying, because when you get
17:31
Speaker 1: dealing with a psychopath, you can go you can go
17:33
Speaker 1: in and that Where would you do that? Why would
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Speaker 1: he do that? Well, he does because there's a psychopath.
17:37
Speaker 1: He does what do you want? You know? And but
17:39
Speaker 1: that's why you gotta keep away from him. That's why
17:41
Speaker 1: why women to keep away from them, because they do.
17:44
Speaker 1: They do have traits and there's a most of the
17:48
Speaker 1: time when women get involved with these kind of people,
17:50
Speaker 1: they have there is a history that they that that's
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Speaker 1: already there. That's the only thing I'm doing a warning women.
17:55
Speaker 1: I'm not blaming them I'm warning them a look, you
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Speaker 1: got the guy who's got all these traits of psychopath,
17:59
Speaker 1: he stay away away. Yeah, well you know what, Pat Brown,
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Speaker 1: Criminal Profiler. One of my favorite favorite slogans is when
18:11
Speaker 1: you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
18:14
Speaker 1: Now here's another thing. And this is a cautionary tale
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Speaker 1: because you know, Alan, um a serious note it. You
18:25
Speaker 1: have to pick the right man regarding your children. I mean,
18:29
Speaker 1: you can date or run around with anybody. You know.
18:32
Speaker 1: I can meet anybody. I can have lunch or dance
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Speaker 1: with anybody, as I always say, but that does not
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Speaker 1: mean I'm going to expose my children to them. Is
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Speaker 1: the kicker? Yeah, I mean, and that's where I got lucky.
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Speaker 1: I got so blessed that David danged to marry me
18:49
Speaker 1: because he is the best father that I can't even imagine.
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Speaker 1: I'm thinking this guy is actually a predator who hooked
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Speaker 1: up with the mom and order to get to the teenager.
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Speaker 1: And that's what happened. And now he's got her and
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Speaker 1: didn't need the mom anymore. So possibly, well you know what,
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Speaker 1: you just gave me an idea, Alan, do you and
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Speaker 1: I want to throw this to Pat Brown, the criminal
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Speaker 1: profile and Dr Brian Russell, you've probably seen what I'm
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Speaker 1: about to describe. Take another look at this guy, Christopher I. Hartman.
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Speaker 1: As far as conning people, his plea deal covered charges
19:28
Speaker 1: of forgery and tampering with public records. What tampering. He
19:32
Speaker 1: was accused of having used false documents, so documents that
19:36
Speaker 1: he's forged and falsified to apply for a new Social
19:40
Speaker 1: Security number under a different name. Now the kicker is
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Speaker 1: that fingerprints for Hartman matched those of a name Buckley.
19:54
Speaker 1: So if he could fake out the government, you don't
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Speaker 1: think you could fake out on Aman that thought she
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Speaker 1: was in love with him. This guy is a con.
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Speaker 1: He's a con. Pat Brown, well he is. But I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you what happened. I agree with Alan that he
20:09
Speaker 1: might have had his little sights on the daughter all along.
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Speaker 1: What happens is if what I tell women is the
20:15
Speaker 1: problem is bringing them home too quickly, because these guys,
20:18
Speaker 1: if they're looking at the children, sometimes they're looking at
20:20
Speaker 1: a five year old or an eight year old or
20:21
Speaker 1: a ten year old. If they're looking at your children,
20:24
Speaker 1: they don't have the patients to wait around and go
20:26
Speaker 1: through the dating process of a year. For example. So
20:28
Speaker 1: if you're going to date them for a year before
20:30
Speaker 1: you bring them home, they're gonna be gone to another
20:32
Speaker 1: woman who's got children. So one of the reasons what
20:35
Speaker 1: they do is they look for the woman who will
20:36
Speaker 1: bring them home by the end of the week because
20:38
Speaker 1: they don't have any patience. So that's one of the
20:41
Speaker 1: most important things to tell women to protect your children.
20:44
Speaker 1: Make sure you date the guy for a while, because
20:46
Speaker 1: the psychopath who wants your kids will not wait the
20:49
Speaker 1: time out he'll find That's a good point. Dr Brian Russell,
20:51
Speaker 1: what about my theory that this guy is just a
20:53
Speaker 1: big con Well, yeah, and I think you know clearly
20:57
Speaker 1: across the board, this is a self serving person who
21:00
Speaker 1: is going to do whatever he wants to do to
21:03
Speaker 1: get whatever he wants at the time in the most
21:05
Speaker 1: expedient possible way, including uh, probably sex and so whatever
21:10
Speaker 1: other women were around. If this woman's sister had lived
21:13
Speaker 1: with them, if this woman's best friend had lived with them,
21:15
Speaker 1: you know, her daughter happened to be there. And that's
21:18
Speaker 1: why I totally agree, and I've said this many times
21:20
Speaker 1: on your show. Uh, you know, I personally as a psychologist,
21:24
Speaker 1: when people are divorced and they've got minor children. And
21:28
Speaker 1: I understand this girl is now eighteen, but it sounds
21:31
Speaker 1: like she was probably a minor when this woman initially
21:35
Speaker 1: hooked up with this guy. Uh, they really ought not
21:38
Speaker 1: to be dating at all, except unless it's exclusively out
21:43
Speaker 1: of the presence of the children. If they want to
21:45
Speaker 1: go on some dates when the kids are with the
21:47
Speaker 1: other parent, fine, but when the kids are with you,
21:50
Speaker 1: and certainly not bringing the dates into the home. Uh,
21:53
Speaker 1: the risk is just too great. And and there's already
21:55
Speaker 1: been enough damage done when a relationship has split up
21:58
Speaker 1: and the kids are now, you know, have their parents
22:01
Speaker 1: in two separate locations, there's been enough damage. Dave Matt,
22:05
Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host, What what happens to this guy now? Uh,
22:09
Speaker 1: they've sentenced him to jail. He's gonna go to prison.
22:11
Speaker 1: And uh, you know how that those sentence things are.
22:14
Speaker 1: They got him like for one year minus a day
22:16
Speaker 1: on the bigamy charge, and they got him on the
22:21
Speaker 1: oh I'm trying to think what the other one was.
22:22
Speaker 1: But they got him for two years minus a day,
22:24
Speaker 1: which I'm not sure how that works out in sentencing.
22:26
Speaker 1: That's your guys expert stuff. But uh, he gets credit
22:29
Speaker 1: for the three thirty days that he had to spend
22:32
Speaker 1: in jail. Um and by the way, investigators say, they're
22:35
Speaker 1: actually he's about to get cut less. They're actually still
22:38
Speaker 1: investigating to see that he might have another wife out
22:41
Speaker 1: there that they're looking into. You know, Dave mac, you're
22:44
Speaker 1: always full of surprises, you know, switching gears. I know
22:48
Speaker 1: the three of you are going to agree with me,
22:50
Speaker 1: and I know you're tired. Alan Duke, okay, I know
22:55
Speaker 1: you're tired trying to keep up with that new wife
22:58
Speaker 1: of yours. I'm telling you know what she like, fifteen
23:00
Speaker 1: or twenty years younger than you, twelve years younger, but whatever, Allan,
23:06
Speaker 1: here's the thing. As we get like every five years,
23:11
Speaker 1: you your body reacts differently, and as you go through life,
23:16
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23:19
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23:22
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23:24
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23:27
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23:32
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25:21
Speaker 1: And once again, I just can't say it enough. If
25:24
Speaker 1: you want it done right, just do it yourself. Okay,
25:29
Speaker 1: what imbecile would try to hire a hit man by
25:34
Speaker 1: offering as payment Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets. Now that's not
25:40
Speaker 1: to dinnigrade the Atlanta Hawks, They're awesome. But when you
25:45
Speaker 1: try to pay a hit man to kill your wife
25:49
Speaker 1: and her boyfriend, your ex wife and her boyfriend with
25:53
Speaker 1: a little bit of cash and Atlanta Hawks tickets, I mean,
25:58
Speaker 1: first of all, that narrows your employ e pool greatly.
26:01
Speaker 1: Who's gonna do the deed for some Hawks tickets? Number one? Well,
26:05
Speaker 1: who are you going to get? Not a professional killer?
26:10
Speaker 1: I can tell you that much. But let's just start
26:13
Speaker 1: at the beginning. I'm talking about a man who tries
26:16
Speaker 1: to pay somebody cash in Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets to
26:20
Speaker 1: murder his ex wife and her new boyfriend. I mean,
26:25
Speaker 1: how many times do I have to say it, ladies,
26:28
Speaker 1: there's a reason you broke up. There's a reason he's
26:32
Speaker 1: an X. Okay, let's start at the beginning. Dave Max,
26:36
Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host, with me, Dave, what can you
26:39
Speaker 1: tell me about Michael mccartchin. Well, he's still in jail.
26:43
Speaker 1: He was in County jail on drug charges Nancy when
26:47
Speaker 1: he tried to arrange a hit man to take out
26:50
Speaker 1: his ex wife and her current boyfriend. And that led
26:54
Speaker 1: the UH, the c I, the confidential informant inside the jail,
26:57
Speaker 1: to turn it over to the FBI, where they then
27:00
Speaker 1: picked up the center. They set the guy. They didn't
27:02
Speaker 1: set him up, that's the wrong term, but they followed
27:05
Speaker 1: up on everything. The guy was in jail trying to
27:08
Speaker 1: arrange this and to make it even more plausible for
27:12
Speaker 1: him to be believed as an inmate that had money
27:14
Speaker 1: to offer to kill his ex wife and her boyfriend,
27:18
Speaker 1: he actually arranged to eight hundred dollar payment just to
27:21
Speaker 1: show that he was serious about this. And he did
27:23
Speaker 1: in fact offer Atlanta Hawks tickets even though the Hawks
27:26
Speaker 1: are probably the worst team in the NBA this year,
27:28
Speaker 1: and I mean Pat Brown criminal profile or you know,
27:31
Speaker 1: eight hundred dollars cash and some Hawks tickets. That's a bargain, right,
27:36
Speaker 1: that's not and it's not just one killing. He wants
27:38
Speaker 1: his ex wife dead and her new boyfriends. Well, I
27:42
Speaker 1: think the appropriate term for a guy like this, and
27:45
Speaker 1: it's the only term I come up with, this dump,
27:47
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, that's what some of these low
27:49
Speaker 1: life criminals are, and they don't know how to do things,
27:52
Speaker 1: so they do things anyway they think it could be done.
27:55
Speaker 1: And a lot of people, really they happened a clue
27:57
Speaker 1: how they're gonna hire hit man or how this are
28:00
Speaker 1: just stage a crime scene, even if they've watched a
28:02
Speaker 1: bunch of TV. So they just talked to the person
28:04
Speaker 1: standing next to him, Hey, what do you think I
28:06
Speaker 1: gotta get a guy who kill my wife? I mean,
28:08
Speaker 1: that's how brilliant they are, and that's the smart technique
28:12
Speaker 1: that they use. So it is no wonder that he
28:14
Speaker 1: got caught in this particular instance. But he's just not
28:17
Speaker 1: very bright. I thought you can say it's not very bright.
28:19
Speaker 1: And I guess for as far as the tickets go,
28:20
Speaker 1: he didn't have a use of the ticket, and he
28:22
Speaker 1: don't know what we're doing here. We're way way off
28:25
Speaker 1: the mark, but I'm going to get us back in
28:27
Speaker 1: the middle of the road. Right now, we are all
28:29
Speaker 1: critiquing how inept he was and hiring a hit man,
28:33
Speaker 1: and how he could have done it so much better
28:35
Speaker 1: if he would just listen to us on serious X.
28:39
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the fact that he's hiring a
28:41
Speaker 1: hit man? Dr Brian Russell. These stupid sociopathic guys are
28:50
Speaker 1: so sexy to you ladies. I mean, look at this guy. Look,
28:54
Speaker 1: look look at this guy. Look at this I don't
28:57
Speaker 1: find him sexy. He's sexy. He's not sexy to me
29:02
Speaker 1: because he doesn't have a job. Chris, you know what,
29:04
Speaker 1: if you can't help me, just don't hurt me, all right?
29:07
Speaker 1: Who wants a man without a job? Number one, let's
29:11
Speaker 1: just start with that lady. And he doesn't running around
29:17
Speaker 1: on the outside trying to help him set up hits
29:20
Speaker 1: on his previous, uh great wife that he had. And
29:24
Speaker 1: how did these guys find all these win I remember when,
29:27
Speaker 1: you know, before I had the wonderful, amazing girlfriend I have.
29:31
Speaker 1: Now you know, there would be long dry spells where
29:35
Speaker 1: you know, with with a couple of doctors and a
29:37
Speaker 1: decent job at a TV show. Well wait, wait a second,
29:42
Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Dr Brian Russell, Dr Brian Russell, pause, whole plays.
29:49
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. You do know you're talking to Nancy Grace, right,
29:53
Speaker 1: you do know that? Okay, Now did I hear you
29:56
Speaker 1: say you have a wonderful long time girlfriend. It isn't
30:00
Speaker 1: that long yet, but yes, what do you mean by that?
30:05
Speaker 1: What's the hold up? What the hold up? No, it's
30:09
Speaker 1: only been a couple of months. I'm just saying there
30:12
Speaker 1: have been time, even as a lawyer and a psychologist
30:16
Speaker 1: with the National television show, I had long dry spells
30:19
Speaker 1: where I wasn't meeting anybody. And these sociopaths, even if
30:22
Speaker 1: they're in prison, seem to have no trouble. They got
30:25
Speaker 1: an endless parade of women wanting to to to even
30:28
Speaker 1: go out and help him arrange hits on people. By
30:30
Speaker 1: you're rye at Brian, where does a Where does he
30:34
Speaker 1: find a girlfriend? B How do you convince a girlfriend
30:39
Speaker 1: to go hire a hitman to commit murder? I know
30:43
Speaker 1: I wanna pause and thank our partner making today serious
30:46
Speaker 1: X program possible. And here's my question, what's your story?
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Speaker 1: legal Zoom, where a life meets legal. You know, I
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Speaker 1: can't say it enough. If you want something done right,
32:14
Speaker 1: you gotta do it yourself. I'm talking about a man
32:17
Speaker 1: who offers a hit man Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets in
32:22
Speaker 1: exchange for double murder. Dave Mack syndicated talk show I
32:28
Speaker 1: was joining me. Why did he want to kill his
32:31
Speaker 1: ex wife? They're divorced, Why does he care what she's doing,
32:35
Speaker 1: and why drag her boyfriend into it? Well, because he's
32:39
Speaker 1: a scumbag. I'm not exactly sure, and all the stuff
32:42
Speaker 1: I've seen, I can't find any reason, any rational reason
32:45
Speaker 1: for taking her out. However, this wasn't the first time
32:49
Speaker 1: that he tried to take her boyfriend out, because the
32:52
Speaker 1: boyfriend of his ex wife had been shot and survived,
32:56
Speaker 1: and they trace that back to this moron. But you know,
32:59
Speaker 1: we did think out where the Atlanta Falcons tickets. Yeah,
33:02
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Falcons or Hawks tickets came from. See, he's
33:05
Speaker 1: got a girlfriend who's a bartender, and she's the one
33:08
Speaker 1: that is selling these Hawks tags. I looked back on
33:11
Speaker 1: her Facebook page and they date back all season. So
33:14
Speaker 1: he's actually she's the one offering up the tickets to
33:18
Speaker 1: get her boyfriend's ex wife out of the picture while
33:21
Speaker 1: he's in jail. Now, Alan Duke, in the past, you
33:24
Speaker 1: have said you've made comments such as, oh, he was
33:27
Speaker 1: just talking, it didn't amount to a crime. That's not
33:31
Speaker 1: true in this case, because he made several pointed comments
33:37
Speaker 1: about it. He managed to get eight hundred dollars earnest money.
33:41
Speaker 1: To show he was serious, he agreed upon a post
33:45
Speaker 1: office box to drop off the eight hundred dollar deposit.
33:50
Speaker 1: He gave the whippy hitman his ex wife's address description,
33:55
Speaker 1: he described her and the boyfriend, and gave a killer
34:00
Speaker 1: that would be killer the boyfriends place of work. So
34:05
Speaker 1: this is more than just talking about how you wish
34:08
Speaker 1: your ex wife was dead. This is for real, Alan Duke.
34:13
Speaker 1: It was very real. And when the FBI started and
34:17
Speaker 1: started investigating the tip from their confidential informant, According to
34:20
Speaker 1: the affidavit from the FBI agent, they went to the
34:24
Speaker 1: Subma the Smyrna, Georgia Police Department two investigate. Hey, what
34:29
Speaker 1: do you know about this guy that they got the
34:30
Speaker 1: target on? And the Smyrna police knew the boyfriend and
34:35
Speaker 1: you know why they knew him? No, he had just
34:37
Speaker 1: been shot. Oh my stars. You know what. Dave Matt
34:41
Speaker 1: kind of mentioned something about that earlier. So you don't
34:44
Speaker 1: think this would have been the first attempt on the
34:46
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend's life, I mean on the boyfriend's life. It
34:49
Speaker 1: was obviously the same multiple attempts. You know, this guy,
34:52
Speaker 1: he's an orchestrating murder for hire from his county jail ceho,
34:56
Speaker 1: you know, on the drug charges and getting a lot
34:58
Speaker 1: of help from the girl friend. And I'm telling you, Nancy,
35:02
Speaker 1: this girlfriend, I don't understand why she hasn't in charge yet.
35:05
Speaker 1: I was just about to say, why hasn't she been charged?
35:08
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal vows.
35:14
Speaker 1: How how can somebody follow along with a murderous plan
35:17
Speaker 1: so blindly? She wasn't just following along, she was offering
35:21
Speaker 1: up the payment for murder. Yeah, it's completely implausible to
35:24
Speaker 1: me that she didn't know she was involved in a
35:26
Speaker 1: murder for higher plot. And so, uh, what it really
35:29
Speaker 1: points out is something that I've been talking about ever
35:33
Speaker 1: since I've been you know, every going back years. Uh,
35:37
Speaker 1: you know, back when you and I were talking about
35:39
Speaker 1: cases on TV. We would come up with these cases
35:41
Speaker 1: once in a while where this kind of a thing
35:44
Speaker 1: would happen, And it really points up something fascinating. If
35:48
Speaker 1: you look at almost all of the high profile serial
35:52
Speaker 1: killers in American history, almost all of them have formed
35:56
Speaker 1: committed relationships with women, or if not, may worried while
36:01
Speaker 1: in prison, even on death row and you think, why
36:05
Speaker 1: in the world would somebody want to become involved romantically
36:09
Speaker 1: with somebody who is can't even take him on a date,
36:11
Speaker 1: can't even have a phone call except you know, once
36:14
Speaker 1: a week at a particular time with him, And it
36:17
Speaker 1: really speaks to a profile. I think of of those
36:22
Speaker 1: those women that the people that get involved with them
36:24
Speaker 1: are very um typically uh, you know that they've got
36:29
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional issues of their own, a lot
36:31
Speaker 1: of neediness, a lot of um you know. Some of
36:34
Speaker 1: them like the shock value of telling their friends they're
36:37
Speaker 1: dating somebody who's a prisoner or a serial killer whatever.
36:41
Speaker 1: Some of them like the fact that the person is
36:43
Speaker 1: unavailable so that they can sort of control the level
36:46
Speaker 1: of contact and everything, and they think that's gonna have
36:48
Speaker 1: them be in charge of the relationship. But look what happens.
36:51
Speaker 1: They end up having their puppet strings pulled by the sociopath,
36:55
Speaker 1: even from behind bars, just every bit as much as
36:58
Speaker 1: if he were out. You know, it's not just talking
37:01
Speaker 1: to the girlfriend. There are recorded phone calls at the
37:04
Speaker 1: jail bab Brown criminal profiler. Thank god, the people behind
37:10
Speaker 1: bars seem to forget or pretend it's not real. All
37:15
Speaker 1: his phone calls are recorded all of them. Yeah, you know,
37:18
Speaker 1: I think we were talking about the type of women. Uh,
37:22
Speaker 1: you know, I think that one of the problems is
37:25
Speaker 1: when you talk about what level of what where are
37:28
Speaker 1: you such a bar? In other words, it can't be
37:30
Speaker 1: too picky, because you get too picky, you don't get anybody.
37:32
Speaker 1: So you drop your level of down you can get
37:34
Speaker 1: a lot more people. And but sometimes when you drop
37:37
Speaker 1: your level down enough. I actually talked to one woman
37:39
Speaker 1: who was dating, who was dating and one to marry
37:42
Speaker 1: Cyril Killers uh, And I asked her, I said, what's
37:45
Speaker 1: wrong with the box boy at safe Boy? You know,
37:48
Speaker 1: the guy stock in the shelves and he goes he's born, Yeah,
37:51
Speaker 1: he is born. Because now you you realize you couldn't
37:54
Speaker 1: get oh uh famous actor being who you were, You
37:58
Speaker 1: get box boys at safe way because you know, you
38:01
Speaker 1: also work at Safeway. But that's not enough for her.
38:03
Speaker 1: It doesn't make her feel good enough and special enough.
38:06
Speaker 1: We're excited enough. But if she can get that guy
38:08
Speaker 1: behind bars, which is a lot easier, and these guys
38:11
Speaker 1: will go for that, she's gonna get somebody really interesting,
38:14
Speaker 1: somebody you know, the bad boys, somebody cool, and she
38:17
Speaker 1: gets to help him too. She gets to do some
38:19
Speaker 1: real things for somebody, you know, brings him whatever he
38:22
Speaker 1: wants in jail, send them the letters, all that civily stuff.
38:26
Speaker 1: So there's a really weird dynamic that goes onto some
38:29
Speaker 1: of these women's brains. It makes them feel important. And
38:32
Speaker 1: sometimes these women suffer from sort of a narcissistic personality disorder,
38:35
Speaker 1: and that is how they get They have to get
38:37
Speaker 1: that constant feat and psychopaths are really good at saying
38:40
Speaker 1: all the right things. If it go to uh data
38:43
Speaker 1: data prisoner dot com one of those those things. Man,
38:46
Speaker 1: those guys are great. I mean they look good and
38:48
Speaker 1: they say things like I want to take walks on
38:50
Speaker 1: the beach and I'd like to talk and and they're
38:53
Speaker 1: actually better than the regular dating sites because they know
38:56
Speaker 1: what to say walks on the beach, that to the
39:02
Speaker 1: outside here instead of being if you if you go
39:06
Speaker 1: if you go to one of the regular dating sites,
39:07
Speaker 1: the guy standing next to his car, you know, and
39:10
Speaker 1: he's going to look a girl's open minded, you know,
39:13
Speaker 1: that's what you get. But if you go to the
39:14
Speaker 1: best site, the Prism site, you get the guy who
39:17
Speaker 1: likes poetry and wants to talk to you. He doesn't
39:19
Speaker 1: want to just have sex with you. It's ridiculous, but
39:22
Speaker 1: he says all the right things for a girl. If
39:25
Speaker 1: you're on the outside, it would actually I'm a little
39:27
Speaker 1: concerned about you. What are you doing on these sites?
39:29
Speaker 1: How do you know this? I used that. I used
39:32
Speaker 1: this one of my training programs. Believe me, I'm not
39:35
Speaker 1: there for myself, you know. Uh. And there are actually
39:39
Speaker 1: dozens of sites devoted to creating a relationship with someone
39:44
Speaker 1: behind bars, isn't that true? Pet Round, Absolutely, there's a
39:48
Speaker 1: huge amount of them. And what I did with one
39:50
Speaker 1: of my college classes I was teaching, because I had
39:52
Speaker 1: the students, had the males pick out some females. The
39:55
Speaker 1: female took out some males and it was amazing. They
39:58
Speaker 1: were all shocked at how really great they sounded compared
40:02
Speaker 1: to the regular dating sites. But that is the psychopath
40:04
Speaker 1: knows how to learn lettle people. He just knows what
40:07
Speaker 1: they want to hear, and he's practiced this on so
40:10
Speaker 1: many people. So a woman who is really desperate or
40:13
Speaker 1: lonely or narcissistic or whatever her issue was, and she
40:16
Speaker 1: decides I could help a prisoner, Michael, I could you
40:19
Speaker 1: know this guy'll get out one day and I could
40:20
Speaker 1: be the woman he's been waiting for to change his
40:22
Speaker 1: life or whatever she's got going through her head. Man,
40:25
Speaker 1: they just line up for this stuff. It's it's unbelievable,
40:28
Speaker 1: you know. Dgor Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation
40:31
Speaker 1: Discoveries Fatal Vows series. It's a big hit. Dr Brian Russell.
40:36
Speaker 1: When Pat Brown is using terms like psychopath or narcissistic,
40:43
Speaker 1: first of all, she said that this guy, Michael mccarchin
40:47
Speaker 1: is a psychopath. What does she mean by that? So
40:52
Speaker 1: a lot of people use the terms sociopath and psychopath synonymously.
40:57
Speaker 1: I don't, I make a distinction. And here's the distinction.
41:00
Speaker 1: Associopath is somebody who will do destructive things for a
41:06
Speaker 1: secondary gain. That means, uh, there's nothing about the destructive
41:10
Speaker 1: act necessarily, that's all that exciting. It's just that it
41:13
Speaker 1: gets them something else that they want. It gets the money,
41:16
Speaker 1: it gets them sex, it gets them, uh, some other goal.
41:19
Speaker 1: And the psychopath is somebody for whom the destructive behavior
41:24
Speaker 1: is the goal. It's for it's we call it primary gain.
41:27
Speaker 1: In other words, the the excitement of the destructive act
41:31
Speaker 1: in and of itself, is the motivation there there There
41:34
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be any secondary goal. There doesn't have
41:36
Speaker 1: to be any money, any pleasure and other other than
41:39
Speaker 1: just committing the act. I thought a psychopath and again,
41:43
Speaker 1: you guys are the shrinks. I'm just a trial lawyer.
41:46
Speaker 1: I thought a psychopath was someone that could not identify
41:52
Speaker 1: with anyone else's pain, so for them to kill someone,
41:56
Speaker 1: I mean they start. Many serial killers start as children
41:59
Speaker 1: killing animals or insects, um tearing the heads off toys,
42:05
Speaker 1: and they move up to cats and dogs, other children.
42:10
Speaker 1: I thought that a psychopathist is someone that cannot identify
42:15
Speaker 1: with other people's pain or sorry, they like conscience. It's
42:21
Speaker 1: it's a spectrum. It's an antisocial personality disorder spectrum, kind
42:25
Speaker 1: of like the autism spectrum, where you know, you have
42:28
Speaker 1: you have people sort of on the low grade end
42:30
Speaker 1: of it, who are willing to lie and cheat and
42:32
Speaker 1: con other people to get some money or to get
42:34
Speaker 1: some laughs out of fooling somebody. And then you have
42:37
Speaker 1: people on the extreme end who are willing to torture
42:39
Speaker 1: and murder people for the enjoyment of watching them suffer.
42:42
Speaker 1: And so all along that spectrum you see a diminishing
42:46
Speaker 1: of conscience where the person is less and less, uh,
42:49
Speaker 1: you know, inclined to care about the impact of their
42:53
Speaker 1: actions upon others. I hesitate always to say they can't
42:58
Speaker 1: do it. They can't, they have no ability to have conscience.
43:02
Speaker 1: I think it's it's there's an element of choice in
43:05
Speaker 1: it always where they choose to prioritize their own gratification,
43:10
Speaker 1: whatever that is. Okay, you know what you're You're using
43:12
Speaker 1: way too many big words, zommie. Dr Brian Russell. Okay,
43:15
Speaker 1: Now do I throw out legal terms all the time? Well,
43:19
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't want to, but there's nothing
43:21
Speaker 1: that can alienate a jury more than if you start
43:24
Speaker 1: talking Latin to them. Okay, that's not good. You gotta
43:27
Speaker 1: dummy down for me, Brian Russell. Okay, now, Pat Brown,
43:31
Speaker 1: give me a crack at it. When you say he's
43:33
Speaker 1: a psychopath, can you spot talk to me in regular
43:37
Speaker 1: people talk. Well, first of all, I do like Brian's description,
43:40
Speaker 1: although I'm a little Well, you like it because you
43:43
Speaker 1: understand what he's saying. You two were speaking your own language,
43:48
Speaker 1: Dave mc and Alan Duke and I are sitting here
43:50
Speaker 1: going in my opinion for me, Pat, what why do
43:55
Speaker 1: you say he's a psychopath? Okay, psycho a psychopath. Basically,
43:59
Speaker 1: the it cares only about himself and nobody else. It's
44:03
Speaker 1: it's about him, it's not about you, and he will
44:06
Speaker 1: take He will either use you, he will have me.
44:09
Speaker 1: Put it this way, you're either useful to him or
44:11
Speaker 1: you're in the way. That's it. And now that's starting
44:14
Speaker 1: to make sense to me. You're either use Now, when
44:17
Speaker 1: you said someone is narcissistic, I know the old myth
44:23
Speaker 1: of narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection
44:27
Speaker 1: in a pond. But when you say someone is narcissistic,
44:32
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Okay, a narcissists that
44:35
Speaker 1: that's sort of that continuum with the continuing that Brand
44:38
Speaker 1: was talking about. Narcisism means that you have an excessive
44:41
Speaker 1: self interest. We all have self interests, otherwise we wouldn't survive,
44:44
Speaker 1: and so we we do care about ourselves, but we
44:47
Speaker 1: also care about other people and we take that into account.
44:50
Speaker 1: The higher we are in the narcissistic uh continuum, the
44:53
Speaker 1: less we care about how other people are affected by
44:56
Speaker 1: what we do or what we need, the more we
44:58
Speaker 1: just try to get things for ourselves. Okay, you know
45:01
Speaker 1: Pat Brown, Pat Brown, Pat, you know how I feel
45:05
Speaker 1: about you. I love you. But Dr Brian Russell I
45:09
Speaker 1: respect to you greatly. But the two of you, the
45:12
Speaker 1: two of you, are are making my teeth and my
45:15
Speaker 1: head hurt. Dave Matt, can we get back to reality? Okay,
45:19
Speaker 1: let's let's get out of the ivy tower that these
45:22
Speaker 1: two are living in. They're probably writing some you know,
45:25
Speaker 1: doctoral thesis on this, Dave Matt, what does it mean
45:28
Speaker 1: to me? And what does it mean to Michael mckeatrin
45:31
Speaker 1: and his ex wife and boyfriend that almost bit the bullet. Literally.
45:38
Speaker 1: The thing that bothers me the most about all this, Nancy,
45:40
Speaker 1: is that this guy is sitting in jail on drug
45:44
Speaker 1: charges and he's able to arrange this. Now, granted, it
45:47
Speaker 1: got interrupted by the FBI because of at least one
45:51
Speaker 1: confidential informant inside the jail, but this guy was orchestrating
45:55
Speaker 1: stuff from behind the jail and he had help, and
45:57
Speaker 1: I'm really bothered that he's able to have this. Lisa
46:00
Speaker 1: Marie north Cut his girlfriend, who obviously is the connection
46:04
Speaker 1: on the Atlanta Hawks tickets, and she was the one
46:06
Speaker 1: passing the money through and getting it to where it
46:09
Speaker 1: needed to go for when they thought they were hiring
46:11
Speaker 1: a hit man. She's an accomplice here, and I have
46:13
Speaker 1: to really worry about those that would run into her
46:17
Speaker 1: because what would she do now Her best friend here
46:20
Speaker 1: is in jail arranging murders and she has not been charged.
46:25
Speaker 1: She's not a person of interest. However, if she's doing
46:31
Speaker 1: his bidding and knows it's about a contract killing, I
46:36
Speaker 1: also if that's true, Alan Dee, I'm very surprised she
46:39
Speaker 1: has not been charged. Well, the main case against him
46:42
Speaker 1: is a federal case, and they're not going after her.
46:44
Speaker 1: There's no mention of that. Oh, you know the fans,
46:48
Speaker 1: they don't play. No, I'm very surprised they haven't gone.
46:51
Speaker 1: Sure she's working as a witness, right, would they be
46:54
Speaker 1: working a deal with her to get more info? A
46:57
Speaker 1: witness seems to testify a lot better if they have
46:59
Speaker 1: a part to jail said, it's hanging over their heads.
47:01
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm on it. We're watching this. What's
47:05
Speaker 1: to say he's not going to get out of jail
47:07
Speaker 1: and make good on his intentions? Pat Brown, You're awesome.
47:12
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of Investigation Discoveries,
47:17
Speaker 1: hit show Fatal Vows, Dave Max, indicated talk show host
47:22
Speaker 1: Alan Duke, Jackie Howard, my partners in crime guys, Thank
47:26
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off, Goodbye friend,