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How Last Minute Medicaid Planning Can Protect Assets · The Legal Exchange

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  Speaker 1: This is the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky from the
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: law firm of Cushing and Dolan and Susan Powers of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the Armstrong Advisory Group. Each week, Todd and Susan will
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: discuss many topics, including estate planning, how to avoid probate,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and protecting your money from a nursing home. If you
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: need assistance in any of these areas, or have a
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: question about another issue that may affect your future, call
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  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine
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  Speaker 1: to make an appointment. That's eight sixty six eight four
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  Speaker 1: eight five six ninety nine. Operators are standing by. Now
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Here are your hosts, Todd Lutsky and Susan Powers.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Welcome into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm Susan Powers,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and I'm
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: joined by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the law firm
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation. Welcome Todd.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: How are you today?
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I'm never better in you.
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  Speaker 2: I am great. Thank you what you have for us
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  Speaker 2: this week.
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  Speaker 3: Couple of cases We're going to head over to Wisconsin.
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  Speaker 3: We got an a pellid court case they are dealing
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  Speaker 3: with a really ambiguously drafted caretaker agreement. Very strange. You
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  Speaker 3: don't get a lot of caretaker agreement cases. But we're
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  Speaker 3: going to learn other things about this case that not
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  Speaker 3: just the caretaker agreement part. But yeah, that's a very
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  Speaker 3: strange situation. And then we're going to go back to
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  Speaker 3: New Jersey and got an appellied court case. They are
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  Speaker 3: dealing with a Medicaid lien and a state lien and
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  Speaker 3: how these liens work. So we're going to learn not
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  Speaker 3: only about which one might have priority, but how and
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  Speaker 3: why there might be a lifetime lean versus an at
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  Speaker 3: death lien and how that might play at play out,
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  Speaker 3: especially if you have a life estate. So lots of
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  Speaker 3: things to think about in the estate recovery world. But
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  Speaker 3: when we're talking about Medicaid liens, folks, that's what this
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  Speaker 3: guide is all about in a sense, because it's dealing
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  Speaker 3: with last minute Medicaid eligibility. And obviously there could be
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  Speaker 3: liens placed on things that you have in your own
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  Speaker 3: name when you get sick, But remember a Medicaid leen
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  Speaker 3: might be your friend, because as long as you can
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  Speaker 3: get on Medicaid and be at the lower rate that
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  Speaker 3: might be better than paying the higher rate. This guide
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  Speaker 3: gives you tips on how to treat all your assets,
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  Speaker 3: and they're treated differently whether you're married or single, and
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  Speaker 3: the different assets are treated differently, like a house versus
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  Speaker 3: a rental property versus a four h one K or
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  Speaker 3: a life insurance policy. Learn how these assets can be
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  Speaker 3: countable or non countable last minute, How you can protect
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  Speaker 3: them last minute or at least slow the medicaid eligibility
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  Speaker 3: or at least slow the financial bleeding of these assets.
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  Speaker 3: Don't just write the check. Get the guide eight six
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  Speaker 3: six eight four eight five six nine to nine or
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  Speaker 3: legal exchange show dot com Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility Techniques
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  Speaker 3: eight six six eight four eight five six nine to
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  Speaker 3: nine or legal exchange Show dot com Wisconsin so here.
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  Speaker 3: On April twenty sixteen, Dan and Milton entered into a
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  Speaker 3: personal care contract. Dan promised to provide care to Milton
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  Speaker 3: for the balance of his life. Stay with me on
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  Speaker 3: these facts. Milton promised to pay a one time upfront
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  Speaker 3: payment of one hundred and ninety one thousand dollars for this,
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  Speaker 3: but it's considered to be a gift by both parties.
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  Speaker 3: That's strange Milton also promised to update his estate planning documents,
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  Speaker 3: so his trust transferred title to the home to Dan.
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  Speaker 3: The agreement stated that these promises were made out of
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  Speaker 3: love and affection. Very strange language for a personal care contract.
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  Speaker 3: Either party could unilaterally terminate the agreement with sixty days notice. Wow,
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  Speaker 3: another big red flag. So on May sixth, twenty sixteen,
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  Speaker 3: Dan moved to wiscons collected his one hundred and ninety
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  Speaker 3: one thousand dollars yep from Milton, and Milton updated his
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  Speaker 3: revocable trust to give title to the home to Dan.
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  Speaker 3: So far sounds like they're doing what they said yep.
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  Speaker 3: July twenty sixteen, which, by the way, is like too much.
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  Speaker 3: Two months later, Dan decides to terminate the contract. Surprise,
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  Speaker 3: and he stopped providing care sixty days later.
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  Speaker 2: What about one hundred and ninety one thousand dollars?
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  Speaker 3: Oh no, he collected his one hundred and ninety one
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  Speaker 3: thousand dollars. You're allowed to unilaterally terminate the contract anytime
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  Speaker 3: it said in there, didn't it? That was what the
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  Speaker 3: agreement said. Oh shocker. So on September twenty sixteen, Dan
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  Speaker 3: amended his trust to remove Dan as a beneficiary. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: seems fair. So on September twenty twenty two, yep, many
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  Speaker 3: years later, Milton died. Dan, who hasn't apparently forgotten, files
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  Speaker 3: a claim for summary judgment to enforce the promise to
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  Speaker 3: get the ho.
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  Speaker 2: That's crazy, is it?
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  Speaker 3: So?
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  Speaker 2: The yes, I declare it to be crazy.
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  Speaker 3: He's telling you can't make this up. The estate then
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  Speaker 3: argued that it's not enforceable. It's not an enforceable promise
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  Speaker 3: to make a future gift. The trial court granted the
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  Speaker 3: summary judgment for the estate, stating it was a gift
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  Speaker 3: and not in consideration of future caretaking services. The house.
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  Speaker 3: The house. That's what he's arguing here, that he wants
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  Speaker 3: the house. And so again, if you go back and
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  Speaker 3: read this, it says these are made out of love
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  Speaker 3: and affection. They were treated while the one hundred and
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  Speaker 3: ninety one was considered to be a gift by both parties. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: but maybe not the house. Well. Needless to say, Dan
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  Speaker 3: didn't like that result, so he appealed. On appeal, the
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  Speaker 3: appellate court reversed and said you got to remand this.
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  Speaker 3: This is a summary judgment. So they said you need
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  Speaker 3: to remand this case.
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  Speaker 2: But what you've done what I tell you about not
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  Speaker 2: giving us any answers in these cases.
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  Speaker 3: So they say we're going to reverse and remand the
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  Speaker 3: case because the contract itself is not clear as to
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  Speaker 3: whether the house was to be a gift or whether
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  Speaker 3: the house was to be provided in consideration of future services.
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  Speaker 3: If you go back and look, it said the one
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  Speaker 3: ninety one is a gift by both parties. It was
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  Speaker 3: silent as to what the house was, so you got
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  Speaker 3: to go. So all this means is that it doesn't
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  Speaker 3: pass summary judgment muster, you got to go litigate this.
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  Speaker 3: So the appellate court didn't say, Dan, you're going to win, right,
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  Speaker 3: it said go back and litigate this because we're really
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  Speaker 3: not clear on what that meant. I think ultimately it's
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  Speaker 3: all tied to providing services. I think you're going to
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  Speaker 3: get there, but I think you just have to litigate it. Dan, Wow, Right,
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  Speaker 3: what a crazy situation.
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  Speaker 2: That is crazy.
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  Speaker 3: Clearly it's poorly drafted from the get go. Absolutely, But
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  Speaker 3: I just want to look at this not from the
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  Speaker 3: case case perspective as to who's gonna win or not.
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  Speaker 3: I want to look at this as a from a
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  Speaker 3: medicaid perspective. How would this work from Medicaid? The issue
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  Speaker 3: here was whether or not they provided the services and
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  Speaker 3: whether they get their money. This has nothing to do
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  Speaker 3: with Medicaid, but we need to know because we use
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  Speaker 3: personal care contracts, as you'll see in the guide this month,
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  Speaker 3: dealing with personal care contracts so that we can transfer
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  Speaker 3: money and not have the money transferred to a family
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  Speaker 3: member be treated as a gift, otherwise known as a
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  Speaker 3: disqualifying transfer, creating a five year waiting period for Medicaid eligibility.
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  Speaker 2: Right, because you told us in a prior show you
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  Speaker 2: couldn't do a lump sum payment for past services, So
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  Speaker 2: can you do a lumpsum payment for future services?
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  Speaker 3: Oh, that's where we're headed. So let's look at how
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  Speaker 3: this would be perspective, how this would look from a
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  Speaker 3: Medicaid perspective. Right, So, again, as we know many, many,
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  Speaker 3: many people more and more are providing care for people
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  Speaker 3: at home, and of course they should get paid for
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  Speaker 3: it if they're providing the care, and that can be
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  Speaker 3: done to protect assets from the nursing home without a
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  Speaker 3: five year waiting period. But you got to follow the rules,
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  Speaker 3: like what a lump sum payment? There's cases both ways.
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  Speaker 3: You can't pay a lump sum backwards, that's for sure.
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  Speaker 3: Going forward, they really don't allow it. You got to
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  Speaker 3: pay as you go, so more as a pay as
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  Speaker 3: you go. So you got problem number one with this
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  Speaker 3: contract being a lump sum contract Number two the contract itself,
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  Speaker 3: and I don't know if they did this here, but
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  Speaker 3: the one we're talking about, better state the terms and
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  Speaker 3: the payment. How much are you getting paid? Is it hourly?
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  Speaker 3: Are you getting paid twice a month, once a month, weekly?
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  Speaker 3: How does it work? It needs to say how long
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  Speaker 3: you're going to be providing the care, and it needs
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  Speaker 3: to indicate what kind of care you're providing. Be as
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  Speaker 3: detailed as you possibly can in this contract. Now, it
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  Speaker 3: does need to be a contract, right in order to
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  Speaker 3: convert this from being done for love and affection. Notice
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  Speaker 3: here they actually use the words these were I think
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  Speaker 3: they said something like the parties said that this is
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  Speaker 3: all done out of These are promises made out of
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  Speaker 3: love and affection. Don't put words love and affection in
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  Speaker 3: your personal care contract.
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  Speaker 2: Remember, that's the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly. Medicaid says that if you don't have a contract,
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  Speaker 3: you're serving the work you're provided is deemed to be
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  Speaker 3: out of love and affection. So love and affection is
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  Speaker 3: a bad term to have in your medicaid contract, a
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  Speaker 3: personal care contract if you're concerned about Medicaid. Yeah, this
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  Speaker 3: idea of unilaterally terminating a contract any time you want
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  Speaker 3: within sixty days notice would probably make the contract not
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  Speaker 3: be a valid contract from the get go, So I
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  Speaker 3: think you have a problem with that in and of itself.
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  Speaker 3: And lastly, folks, just make sure that when you collect
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  Speaker 3: the money that the person collecting the money providing the
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  Speaker 3: service puts it on their income tax return. All those
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  Speaker 3: things cleanse the transfer, make it not a five year
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  Speaker 3: waiting period, and it's something you can do last minute.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Other things you can do last minute. Get the guide
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: learn how not to pay the nursing home upfront. Eight
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  Speaker 3: sixty six eight four eight five six, nine to nine.
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  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
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  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing in Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and we'll be
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: back with more after this break. On the legal exchange
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  Speaker 2: with Todd Lutski.
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  Speaker 1: One day you're living in your own home. The next
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  Speaker 1: you can't return home after rehab. Now you're faced with
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: a nursing home bill of more than fourteen thousand dollars
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  Speaker 1: These situations can occur without warning, but Cushing and Dolan
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  Speaker 1: facts Cushing in Dolan's new guide, Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility.
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  Speaker 4: Retirement isn't just one stage of life. It changes over time,
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  Speaker 4: and your home should change with it. This is Mike
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  Speaker 4: different housing options can fit each stage of retirement, from
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  Speaker 4: staying in your home to downsizing to exploring elder life communities.
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  Speaker 1: A nursing home stake can cost more than fourteen thousand
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers of financial advisor with the Armstrong Advice Group,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a masters in taxation.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Where are we headed now, Todd, We're.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Gonna go over to New Jersey and we're going to
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  Speaker 3: talk about a Medicaid lean, a state lean, a lifetime
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  Speaker 3: lean versus an at death lien. And what are all
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  Speaker 3: these leans that we're talking about? So here are the facts.
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  Speaker 3: So Gabriel an adult who lives in a house operated
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: by ARC. This is those Foundations Group home. Yeah, when
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: when she and there she gets you know, day and
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: Residential services m okay, well DDD of New Jersey, which
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: is the Department of Disabled Individuals in New Jersey, which
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: is a Medicaid program in New Jersey. They've actually provided
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: a lot of the services since twenty twelve. Okay, Well,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: in December twenty nineteen, Gabriel inherited six hundred thousand dollars
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  Speaker 3: from her his sister. Oh yeah, from the estate of
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: the sister. ARC petitioned to become guardian and petition to
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  Speaker 3: transfer those assets immediately to a pooled trust for her
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: for her benefit. I would have done the same thing.
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  Speaker 3: D d D of New Jersey said, oh, wait a minute,
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: we've got a claim here, and that claim that lean
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: we have that should be paid for and paid off
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: for the past, you know, the existing amount of money
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: that we're owed before we put any of this money
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: into a pool trust. ARC argued, Wait a minute. Department
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: of Medical Assistance d m A, which is the federal
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: version of Medicaid, they're going to have a future Medicaid
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: LEAN and that would take priority over your D d
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: D Lean, therefore precluding you New Jersey from seeking repayment
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: of the lean now.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: And she's still alive, so yeah, okay, she is.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: The trial court agreed with Arc and said the state lian.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: You need to wait. You're going to be subordinate to
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: the future federal DMA Medicaid lean take a number. Therefore,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: allow that inheritance to be transferred to the pool Trust
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: for the benefit of Gablielbeel. D d D didn't like that,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: m yeah, so they appealed. This would never be fun
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: if we didn't get to go to an appeal, right,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: So d d D appealed and the appellate court reversed. Really,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: the appellate court reversed the trial court saying, while there
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: is no medicaid lien, while there is a medicaid leen
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: that can be you know, can be imputed here against
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: the other medicaid leen recipients prior to his or her death.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: So you're allowed on a medicaid lien to pursue prior
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to the death of an individual. But here d D
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  Speaker 3: D lean and medicaid leen exist at the same time.
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  Speaker 3: So if they exist at the same time, then the
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  Speaker 3: medicaid lien takes priority. The federal medicaid lien takes priority
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: over the state. But since here there's no medicaid lien
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  Speaker 3: that exists currently, the DDD lien does exist. They're entitled
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: to recover, so the state can recover when there's not
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: another Medicaid lien already out there.
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  Speaker 2: Do you want to know my opinion as a lay
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: person who's been going to the law school of Todd
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Blotski for the past twenty years. Yeah, I would think
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: that that inheritance would be counted as income in the
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: month that it's received, and that we would then save
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that money before the end of that period or later
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: for later. I think, So, do pool trust, do whatever
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: it is you're going to do. I don't know if
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: you be that in New Jersey every law is different
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: or a nonuity or something.
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  Speaker 3: So state specific correct susan you're able to make that assessment.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I think that's accurate. We're going to explore that, I
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: think right right now.
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  Speaker 2: But I think we get an a for this semester
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: with that.
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  Speaker 3: You do You've been paying attention, So whether this is
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: the right answer or not, I mean, it does seem
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  Speaker 3: there does seem to be some logic that if there's
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: no federal lean then it can't take priority. It's a
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: future lien. So I see how the state might be
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: able to recover against state specifics. So I don't know
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: all the laws, But I'm going to give you some
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: answers from a Massachusetts perspective. But folks, this is what
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: happens right after you get on Medicaid. Remember, a Medicaid
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: lien is not a bad thing because you could be paying,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: you know, sixty five hundred a month on Medicaid instead
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: of fifteen thousand a month private pay. So getting on
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Medicaid and having a lien is still your friend. So
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: this isn't a bad thing. And that's what this guide
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: is all about. What can we do last minute to
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: protect assets that we've never protected or if we've done planning,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: there's gonna be assets outside the trust that need protected
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: when you're applying for Medicaid. So this guide is for everyone,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: people who planned and who haven't planned. It'll explain to
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: you how to treat certain assets differently. Houses, rental properties,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: vacation homes, life insurance annuities. There's certain exceptions like caretaker
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: child exceptions for the home. How to do it if
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: your own house with your sibling. Folks, assets are treated differently.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Some are accountable, some are not. Some can be saved
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: last minute. Don't write the check, call and get the guide.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: or Legal Exchange show dot com again eight six six
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six ninety nine or Legal Exchange
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Show dot com.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: How would you handle this case if Gabrielle was your client?
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is this is where I focused on
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: the inheritance, Susan, just just like like you did. You know,
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: if you're on Medicaid and in a nursing home and
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know here that they were, and that might
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: be the difference. Remember she was in some kind of
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: arc operated home, a.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Group home, got it, got it.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: So this could be a very big difference. But you're
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: on the right track, and I'm going to treat this
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: the same way. I'm assuming that what if we have
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: somebody who's in a nursing home, yes, and already on medicaid,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: nursing home Medicaid, not community medicaid, but long term care
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: nursing home Medicaid. This is how the rule works. And
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: so that might be the big difference here with the
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: New Jersey case. But let's explore it. If you're on
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Medicaid and you get an inheritance, that's a lump sum
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: of money. The mass rigs treat this as as you
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: said susan as income in the month received and an
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: asset in the following month. You have thirty days. Now
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: why that matters is if it's income, then you're not
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: technically considered over assets. You're not over your two thousand
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: dollars asset limit, and therefore you don't lose Medicaid coverage. Now, yes,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: you might have to private pay the full month because
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: you've got a whole ton of income. Well that's okay.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: This money then after you pay, that can be immediately
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: moved into a pool trust within thirty days of you know,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: and remaining eligible from Medicaid, and or you could buy
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: a Medicaid annuity, depending on how the numbers work, how
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: old you are, and you know how much you're dealing with.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: That's really different than what happened up here. So again,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: if you're on Medicaid, I'll give you now a real
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: life story. If you're on Medicaid and you've been on
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: for several years and you get somebody who long lost uncle,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: receives you, dies and leaves you money, Yep, what happens. Well,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: in this case, I had a situation where husband and
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: wife received each received three hundred thousand dollars same uncle.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: So it was nice that took tyr of the spouse
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: as well. Husband was at home, wife was in the
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: nursing home. I said, what do we do? I said, Well,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: the husband's money is no problem, right, you could, I said,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: just just that's he's allowed to get that, and we
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: can after you're on medicaid. It doesn't have any problem.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: I said, hold on to hers for a minute. Then
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: I said, you know what, all right, let's transfer it
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: to her. And now it's considered a lump sum. She
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: gets it in one year, then within thirty days, I said, okay,
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: transfer it to the spouse. Why because transfers to spouses
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: are no five year waiting period, and then spouse is
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: allowed to go ahead in and buy. You know, I'm
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: actually transferring it to a spouse is not a disqualifying transfer.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: And so we were able to do that, and we
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: could just buy an annuity for the for the money. OK. Wow,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: what what an amazing way to get around this whole problem.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Aphole And it workedhole, and it absolutely worked, and you
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: could save the money. So you've got to understand the
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: rules when you allow those you know that those are
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: all allowable rules and and you can keep the person
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: on Medicaid.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: You really need an term that this is what they
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: do all day, every day with the elder law you do.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: I mean like a life estate. You could put a
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: lien on during life. If you're foolish enough to sell
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: it during life, they're going to capture it. Yes, if
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: you wait till death, they might put an at death
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: lien on it. But you know, but then you would
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: have avoided probate and it wouldn't be captured. Right, So
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: you really got to understand it. And pool trust could
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: have been used as well. Last minute, But there are
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: techniques out there for us to understand how to protect
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: assets last minute. And that's what the guide is about
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: this month Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility eight six six eight
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: four eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange show
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: dot com.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with a
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and Todd will
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: be answering your listener questions when we return to the
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: One day. You're living in your own home the next
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you can't return home after rehab. Now you're faced with
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: a nursing home bill more than fourteen thousand dollars a month,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: and wondering how you're gonna pay for it. These situations
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: can occur without warning, but Cushing and Dolan can help.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Before you make any major decisions, get the facts. Cushing
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: and Dolan's new guide, Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility explains common
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: misconceptions about Medicaid, what assets may or may not be
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: at risk, and why the first answer you receive isn't
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: always your only option. Call right now eight six six
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: eight four eight five six ninety nine and get you
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: a free copy of Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility. That's eight
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: six six eight four eight five six nine nine. Or
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: you can request the guide online at Legal exchange show
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: dot com. That's Legal exchange show dot com. The proceeding
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: is paid for and the views expressed are solely those
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan into Armstrong Advisory
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: may contact you offering legal or investment services. Cushing and
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each other and
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: are not affiliated.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: The biggest retirement decision you make may have nothing to
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: do with your investments. This is Mike Armstrong from the
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Armstrong Advisory You've worked hard preparing your finances for retirement,
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: so take the time to think about whether your home
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: will still fit the life you want to live. The
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: house that's perfect today could become more work than it's
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: worth a few years from now, stairs, maintenance, a big yard,
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: or even being too far from the people and places
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: that matter. Our new guide Navigating Retirement Housing Choices walks
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: through the different stages of retirement, the housing options available,
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: and the questions you should be asking now before a
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: decision becomes urgent. Get your free copy today by calling
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one. That's
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one, or
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: you can request the guide by visiting Armstrong Advisory dot com.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Armstrong Guide a specific financial, legal, or tax advice. Consult
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax into state planning advisors before making
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: any investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: advisory services. A nursing home stake can cost more than
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: fourteen thousand dollars a month before you assume you have
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: to spend everything to qualify for mitigad Get the facts.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Call eight six six eight four eight five six ninety
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: nine for your free copy of Cushing and Dolan's new
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Guide Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility that's eight sixty six eight
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: four eight five six ninety nine, or requested online at
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Legal exchange show dot com. The proceeding was paid for
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: in The views expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan in or Armstrong Advisory may contact you
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: offering legal or investment services. Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Advisory do not endorse each other and are not affiliated.
• 26:23
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• 26:26
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• 26:29
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• 26:36
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• 26:40
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• 26:45
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• 26:49
  Speaker 1: dot Boston that's dav five K dot Boston. You're listening
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: to the Legal Exchange and it's time for Ask Todd,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: the segment where Todd will answer your quit uestions about
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: anything and everything that's included in the estate planning process.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Once again, here's Todd Lutsky and Susan Powers.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Welcome back talk. We have a few questions from listeners.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: First question comes from Rebecca and Malden Mass and Rebecca writes,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: my mother has a non retirement annuity worth four hundred thousand,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: but she hasn't taken any money out of it. She's
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: been declining and we'll need to go into a nursing
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: home soon. I called the annuity company and they told
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: me this annuity can be withdrawn if she decides to
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: do so. Is there any way we can protect this
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: from the nursing home now or is it too late?
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Other than a few thousand in a bank account, this
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: is her only asset, so last minute planning for a
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: single person.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So this is a single individual that's got
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: four hundred thousand dollars kicking around. Whether it's in the
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: annuity form or not really does not matter. Okay, So
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: let me explain whether this is sitting in a bank account,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: or whether this is sitting in an annuity, the annuity
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: that it is in is because it was purchased long ago,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: is guaranteed not to be a Medicaid qualified annuity because
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: it's very special. Right. This was just a regular old
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: investment annuity. And so I need people to understand that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: While I'm going to talk to you now about Medicaid annuities,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: understand that if you have one today and you bought
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: it a while ago, and you were never in the
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: nursing home, it is not a Medicaid annuity. So if
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: someone sold it to you telling you that they said
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: this will be protected from the nursing home, it won't be. Okay, Okay,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: So cash or an annuity makes no difference. We've got
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: four hundred thousand of accountable assets. First thing we need
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: to do is understand that in order for Rebecca to
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: get eligible for Medicaid, she's only a allowed to have
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: two thousand dollars. So much so that's a lot more
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: than four hundred or four hundred's a lot more than two.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Excuse me, okay, So how do we get this down
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: to two? Well, we first got to liquidate the annuity,
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: convert it to cash now once it's in cash. Based
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: on her age, do we know her age? We don't
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: know her, so the age might affect whether we can
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: do the annuity or not. Right, So, if she's like
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: in her like ninety, you know, even eighty nine, it
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: may be the annuity might not work. When when we
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: talk about how the numbers work, so we would have
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: to go to a pooled trust route if the annuity
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: doesn't work. I don't want to make it sound like
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: there's nothing we can do. We will either do a
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: pool trust or an annuity here.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: So annuity would be your first choice.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the annuity would be the go to because the
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: lean that's attached to the annuity doesn't require also a
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: payment to charity. Okay, so whereas the pool trust does
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: in a payback. Yeah, the pool trust has the lean
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: the payback same as the annuity, but but also you
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: got to pay to charity ten percent if it's under
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: two years in the nursing home, twenty percent to charity
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: if you're in the nursing home two years or more. Okay,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: So keep that in mind. So let's assume we could
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: do the annuity. So we would take the four hundred
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: thousand minus the two, and then we would buy a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: medicaid annuity. What is this It's the ability to convert
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: that money from an income from an asset to an
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: income stream. You basically do it over her life expectancy.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: So when you're single, you go to a table and like,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: if you're seventy five years old, it would be like
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: a twelve year life expectancy. Okay, So if she's eighty five,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe it's only a six year life expectancy.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: So you don't do it for her life. You do
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: it over the life expectance specific term. Right, you can't
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: do it, very good point. Don't say, oh I can
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: do it over your whole life. I got this much
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: better product. You might. It might be a better product.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: But not for nursing.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: But it ain't going to work for nursing homes. So
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: make sure it's term certain. So let's say we pick
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Let's say she's eighty five and there's a six year
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: life expectancy, So we take the three hundred and ninety
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: eight thousand dollars, we buy a medicaid annuity. It pays
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: out over six years. Monthly interest is irrelevant it's small,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: but the moment you convert that to a monthly income payment,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: it's now no longer an asset. And like magic, she's
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: worth two thousand dollars. So now she's eligible for Medicaid,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: and you apply, and of course that monthly check will
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: come in and go to the nursing home. But again,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: if you've got forty five hundred a month coming in
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: between the annuity or five thousand a month coming in
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: between the annuity and your Social Security, well, Medicaid only
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: costs sixty five hundred a month. There's a fifteen hundred
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: dollars a month lean attached to the annuity.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Better than the fifteen grand amounth.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Way better right in the check. And yes, with a
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: single person, you do need to name the state as
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: the beneficiary after you die for that payment. But so
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: what I've slowed the bleeding for Medicaid eligibility purposes, folks.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: That's in the guide. An example like this about how
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: you can slow bleeding of exs assets is in there.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: But more importantly, there's items in here that talk about
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: how to maybe save the asset altogether. Last minute, who
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: can we transfer to? Last minute? Is there a caretaker
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: child is there a disabled child? Can the house just
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: be considered non countable if you're married? Might be right?
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: What about rental property? Can we make that non countable?
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Is it leanable? Folks? There's things that can be done
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: last minute, and each asset is treated differently, and it's
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: treated differently if you're married versus single. This guide is
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: for you. If you've never done planning, or if you've
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: done planning, call and get it. It will tell you
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: how to protect what's not protected last minute when you
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: go to a nursing home eight six six eight four
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: eight five six nine to nine or Legal Exchange Show
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: dot com again eight six six eight four eight five
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Our last question comes from Betty and Norwood Mass and
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Betty writes, I created my iryvocable trust with you in
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, leaving my assets equally to my children. My
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: daughter recently passed away. What do I need to do
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: to update my legal documents now? I want to make
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: sure her children get her share? Will this restart my
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: five year look back if I'm changing how I leave
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: my assets?
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: So she's got to trust, Let's just review this. She's
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: got the trust in place already since twenty fifteen. So
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: that's great news, folks. Number one, that that's more than
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: five years ago. We're way beyond the five year look
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: back period. And again she was leaving assets equally to kids,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: but now she wants to update that.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, one of her daughters passed away.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: And again, just so you understand, when you lose a child,
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: if it's going equally to my children and my grandchildren,
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: losing a child might not be a reason to change
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: your documents. So first I just want to let people
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: know because they might be listening thinking, oh I got
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: to run around changing my document every time a child
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: passes away or something not necessarily. So if you still
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: want to treat your children equally to the kids living
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: if not living, that piece goes to that child's children, stop.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: You don't have to change it.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: So that's pretty standard language in your trust, right, And
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: she did hers with you, so that would be the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: language that's.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, I didn't see that, yeah with me, yes,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: so yes, so this probably would be in there already, right,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: And if that's still what you want, no need to
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: change it. Okay, great news, hard stop now. If, on
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: the other hand, for some reason, and this would be rare,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: but it would have been something that the client tells us, Oh, no, Todd,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: I want to treat my kids per capita. Well, again,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: no reason to change it. If it goes equally to
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: my kids. If living otherwise to the then living children,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: meaning if I have three and one dies, then it
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: goes two ways.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: It gets split.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: That still works, right, So I'm concerned as to why
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: just because your daughter died that you would want to
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: change this one. I think it works in either direction. Now.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: If you're saying, on the other hand that it was
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: per capita, but now you're realizing, no, I really want
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: to take care of the child that dies.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Kids, and that's what she's saying here.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't that way, then yes.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: But maybe she doesn't realize that that's that's built in
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to your trust that if living otherwise to their children,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: you've already got that covered for her.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: I would already have that covered, so likely I already
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: have that covered. But just for fun, so we've answered
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: that question, you could you could make this change.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So what if she hasn't lost a child. But she says,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: all right, well, I was going to leave everything to
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: my kids. Now I want to maybe bring the grandkids in.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I like them a little bit more, and then she
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: wants to add them to the mix. Can she do that?
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure so she could. Then I want to leave,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: you know, ten percent to all my grandkids and only
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: ninety percent to my kids. Yeah, she absolutely could do that.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: And there's language in the trust that allows you to
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: change the beneficiaries and that change will not affect the
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: five year waiting PERP.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Even though it's irrevocable. You can still change your mind.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: How are you leaving things? You sure can, folks. Lots
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: of flexibility in there. And in case you've not done
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: your planning and you're faced with Medicaid eligibility, call and
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: get this guide. It'll help you not write the check
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: without learning how to stop the financial bleeding eight six
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: six eight four eight five six nine to nine or
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Legal Exchange Show dot com.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: If you have a question you'd like to ask Todd,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: visit his website Legal Exchange Show dot com and click
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: on the ask Tod tab. Maybe I'll be able to
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: read your question on the air, and hopefully his answer
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: will stop you from becoming one of his next real
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: life stories. You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Power as a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: We'll be back with more after this quick break on
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: One day you're living in your own home. The next
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: you can't return home after rehab. Now you're faced with
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a nursing home bill of more than fourteen thousand dollars
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: a month and wondering how you're gonna pay for it.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: These situations can occur without warning, but Cushing and Dolan
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: can help before you make any major decisions, get the facts.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility, explains
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: common misconceptions about Medicaid, what assets may or may not
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: be at risk, and why the first answer you receive
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: isn't always your only option. Call right now eight six
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: six eight four eight five six ninety nine and get
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: you a free copy of Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility. That's
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: or you can request the guide online at Legal Exchange
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: show dot com. That's Legal Exchange show dot com. The
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: proceeding was paid for and the views expressed or solely
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan into or
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering legal or investment services.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Retirement isn't just one stage of life. It changes over time,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: and your home should change with it. This is Mike
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Armstrong from the Armstrong Advisory Group. You may have heard
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: of the go go years, when you're traveling and enjoying
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: the freedom you've worked so hard to earn. Then come
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: the slow Goo years, when convenience starts to matter more,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: and eventually the no Goo years, when safety and support
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: takes center stage. Our new guide, Navigating Retirement Housing Choices
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: shows you how different housing options can fit each stage
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: of retirement, from staying in your home to downsizing to
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: exploring elder life communities. You'll learn what questions to ask
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: before you're forced to make a decision. Get your free
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: copy today by calling eight hundred three nine three for
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: zero zero one. That's eight hundred three nine three four
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: zero zero one, or request the guide at Armstrong Advisory
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: dot com.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: registered investment to avisor nothing in the ad or any
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide to specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax intoestate planning advisors before making any
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment advisory services.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: For veterans, every day is a commitment to service. This
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Veterans Day weekend, be part of something meaningful a the
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: DAV five K Boston. Join the thousands of runners and
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: walkers at Fort Independence on Castle Island for a day
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: of community remembrance and gratitude. Proceeds help fund the programs
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and services provided by the Disabled American Veterans Department of Massachusetts.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: To register or make a donation, please visit davfivek dot Boston.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: That's davfivek dot Boston. A single nursing home stay could
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: cost you more than fourteen thousand dollars a month. That's
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: why so many families believe they'll have to spend almost
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: everything before a loved one can qualify for Medicaid. But
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that isn't always the case. Cushing and Dolan has created
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: a new guide called Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility. In it,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: you'll learn how Medicaid eligibility works, get information about life
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: last minute planning options that may still be available, the
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: mistakes that could cost your family, and why acting quickly
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: could give you more options. Don't assume you have to
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: lose everything to pay for long term care. Get your
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: free copy of our new guide called Last Minute Medicaid
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Eligibility right now by calling eight six six eight four
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: eight five six nine nine. That's eight six six eight
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: four eight five six nine nine, or you can request
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: it online at legal exchange show dot com. That's legal
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: exchange show dot com. The proceeding was paid for and
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: the views expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan Intoor Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: legal investment services. Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong Advisory do
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: not endorse each other and are not affiliated your tune
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: to the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. If you are
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: a loved one needs a nursing homestay, call Todd right
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: now at eight sixty six eight four eight five six
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: ninet nine and let him make sure your assets are protected.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: That's eight six six eight four eight five six nine nine,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: or visit him online at Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Welcome, come back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I'm Susan Powers, a financial advisor the Armstrong Advisory Group,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined, of course by Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Masters in taxation. So, Todd, we're focusing this month on
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: kind of navigating the whole medicaid process when someone goes
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: into a nursing home.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: So you have made comments throughout the show that this
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: guide is good for people who have not done their
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: planning and people who have done their planning, because not
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: necessarily everything goes into your trust. These are the people
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: that have done the planning. Is is it just retirement
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: accounts typically that you kind of have to plan for
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: last minute when they've done their planning.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So even if you've done your planning, Remember you're
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: definitely right, Susan, you're not going to be putting any
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: IRA qualified plan money in the trust. Just can't. You
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: got to beg income tax. And but you know what,
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I always tell people, there's nothing wrong. You always have
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: a personal bank account or two or three that you
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: leave outside the trust. How much you leave in that
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: personal bank account is really up to you and your needs. Yeah,
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: but you always leave one out, mainly because your social
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: security and your pension checks cannot be deposited into an
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: account in the name of the trust, so you've got
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: to leave it out to catch those dollars. So, yes,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: it's going to be a combination of money that might
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: be outside the trust in a bank account and IRA assets. Generally,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: there may also be a life insurance policy that you
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: couldn't put in the trust during life, and you might
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: have to deal with that.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And in that is typically because you're still making premium payments.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: Typically, if you don't have enough money in the trust
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: to make the premium payment, then you really can't put
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: the life insurance in there because every time you make
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: a premium payment, you would have a new five year
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: waiting period. Got it? So it pretty much leave those out, yep,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: got it?
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, So let's talk about the assets. Help people understand
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: what's actually at risk, because you want to try and
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: put as much as possible risk into your trust. So
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: let's explain what is actually at risk. So I want
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: to look at it from both the perspective of a
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: married couple as well as a single person. Okay, the
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: home is usually very often the largest asset for folks.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: It is, how is it treated for a married couple?
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: This is an asset not in the trust? Correct you we've.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Not Yeah, nothing in the trust yet?
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: So nothing in or this person just didn't do planning,
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: because clearly I think the first answer would be if
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: you did planning, the house would be in there, right
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: and it would be protected. End story.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: So this is just assuming there's no planning done. So
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: what's at risk?
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: So if there's nothing done and we're doing it, did
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: you say for a married couple?
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: For a married couple, first, how is the home treated
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: in terms of being at risk or not?
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: So the home is a special asset. It's considered noncountable.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to say this if located in Massachusetts,
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: because I'm assuming you're in mass and your house is
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: in mass and you're going into a nursing home in
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: mass Yeah, so it says that the statute says the
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: home is non countable if located in Massachusetts and the
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: survive or the healthy spouse is living there, there is
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: no valuation limitation it can be a ten dollar home.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: It's still protected no valuation limitation and no lean rule applies.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: So no matter how expensive the house is, it's non
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: countable for the healthy spouses living there. So when the
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: six spouse goes into the nursing home, they don't count
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: this as an asset and the state cannot put a
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: lean on it home run for the house. One caveat
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: it's likely that that house was also owned jointly. Yes.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Can you leave it that way and still get on
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: medicaid for him? Yes? Should you know? Come so you
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: don't want to leave it jointly owned because if the
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: spouse that's at home dies out of order, right, you
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: hate when that happens. They shouldn't do that. Then that
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: half of the house would go to the six spouse
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: who's in the nursing home. And now the house is
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent exposed because it's only owned by the
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: nursing home applicant. And we can talk about a single
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: person in a minute, But so we would want to
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: change the ownership of the house to put it in
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: her name alone?
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: And would you do that after he's qualified for medicaid?
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Doesn't really matter. It's a non countable asset. So you
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: do got to do it within ninety days of approval,
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: no matter what God, So you do, got to you do,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: got to move it. So, folks, that's just a little
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: bit of an of one asset. That's just half of
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: the treatment hate of one asset. We've got rental properties,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: vacation homes, life insurance, we've got four to oh one
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: K accounts, We've got IRA accounts. Folks, assets are treated
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: differently depending on their accountability status and whether you're married
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: or single. And there's techniques like annuities and pooled trusts
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: and caretaker child exceptions explained in here to do things
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: that might actually save the asset completely. So learn what
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: to do last minute. Don't just write a check to
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: the nursing home. Even if you've not done planning and
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: you think you can't get eligible, odds are you probably
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: can call and get the guide last minute Medicaid Eligibility
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: eight six six eight four eight five six nine nine
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: or Legal Exchange show dot com again eight six six
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine to nine or Legal
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: Exchange show dot com.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that's for married couple.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: Married only yep.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: How about if a single person owns a home and
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: goes into the nursing home. How do they treat that home?
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very very differently. So first of all, is it
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: non countable?
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Not?
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: Initially, you have to check statute and see how this applies.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: It says, if you go into a nursing home, the
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: house is non countable provided somebody as special as living there,
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: which let's say we don't have any of those, like
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: a spouse or because you're single, or a disabled child
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: or any of those things. Then you go all the
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: way down the list and you say, oh, the only
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: way to make this non countable if nobody's living there
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: that would protect it is check a box believe it
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: or not on the application that says I intend to
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: return home.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So what happened? I mean, if you're going into a
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: nursing home, you likely can't go back home again. So
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: does it depend on their health status or Nope?
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: Completely subjective.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: So they just have the I intend to let's staying
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: here forever.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: I'm not staying here, I'm going home, and so you
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: check that box. Make sure you check that box. If
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: you check that box, then the house becomes non countable.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: But that's just the beginning test. Now, there's other rules
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: that apply. Now, you got to look to a valuation test, right,
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: So first and foremost, if the house is worth more
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: than or if you have an equity interest that exceeds,
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: I check. I think it's like a million, one hundred
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: and thirty three thousand dollars or something like that today
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: a million call it a million one for easy numbers
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: here in mass different for other states. So let's say
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: as long as the if the value of the house
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: was a million two, hard stop, you're denied medicaid. That's
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: how powerfulness is. You're going to be denied medicaid. Now
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: if you again you have to have an equity interest
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: that exceeds. But again, if you you can't go borrow
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: the money because if you borrow the money to bring
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: down the equity, now you make a bunch of money.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: You have a bunch of money in your bank account,
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: and that's going to make you ineligible because you have
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: more than two thousand dollars. And then you pay off
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: the debt in your back. It's a circle. So that's
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: a hard stop. So let's assume for the moment that
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: we've checked the box, and yes, it's worth less than
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: a million one ish are we eligible? Well, at least
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: we know the house is non accountable, so the house
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: by itself will not prevent you for becoming eligible for medicaid. However,
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: unlike with a married couple, this house will be leaned.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: They will put a lifetime lean on it and of
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: course an at death lean on it. So if you
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: sell it during life, they're going to want paid back
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: for whatever services they provided. Yep, makes sense. My advice
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: likely would be, please don't sell it during life because
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: if you convert it to money might be a lot
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: harder to protect those dollars. Right, How am I going
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: to protect those dollars? Is the annuity going to work?
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Do I have to do a pool? Trust? So selling
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: it isn't always the best bet. Renting is fine, you
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: don't have to, but keeping it and then you get
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: step up in basis and even if there is a
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: lien on it when you die, because they will put
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: a lien on at death, the kids could sell it
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: no capital gains tax because they got to step up
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: in basis. And you know what, if we got to
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: pay a lien, we pay a leek yep, or keep
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: it right and pay off the lian and you've got
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: a nice rental property with a step up in basis,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: you can always mortgage it. Folks, that's just the house.
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: Get the guide. Other assets are also available to be
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: saved last minute. Just got to learn what to do
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: with each asset and whether you're married or single eight
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: six six eight four eight five six nine nine or
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: Legal Exchange show dot Com.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Todd Lutsky from the law firm of Cushing in Dolan,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: thank you so much.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Susan. It's always a pleasure.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: I'm Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: We thank you for joining us today and we'll be
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: back again next week. On the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: One day you're living in your own home, the next
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: you can't return home after rehab. Now you're faced with
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: a nursing home bill of more than fourteen thousand dollars
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: a month and wondering how you're gonna pay for it.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: These situations can occur without warning, but Cushing and Dolan
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: can help before you make any major decisions. Get the facts.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan's new guide Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility explains
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: common misconceptions about Medicaid, what assets may or may not
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: be at risk, and why the first answer you receive
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: isn't always your only option. Call right now eight six
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: six eight four eight five six ninet nine and get
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: you a free copy of Last Minute Medicaid Eligibility. That's
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online at Legal exchange
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Show dot com. That's Legal exchange show dot com. The
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: proceeding is paid for and the views expressed are solely
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan into Armstrong
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Advisory may contact you offering legal investment services. Cushing and
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each other and
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: are not affiliated.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: The biggest retirement decision you make may have nothing to
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: do with your investments. This is Mike Armstrong from the
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Armstrong Advisory Group. You worked hard preparing your finances for retirement,
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: so take the time to think about whether your home
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: will still fit the life you want to live. The
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: house that's perfect today could become more work than it's
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: worth a few years from now. Stairs, maintenance, a big yard,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: or even being too far from the people and places
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: that matter. Our new guide navigating retirement housing choices, walks
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: through the different stages of retirement, the housing options available,
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: and the questions you should be asking now before a
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: decision becomes urgent. Get your free copy today by calling
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one. That's
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one, or
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: you can request the guide by visiting Armstrong Advisory dot com.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 52:50
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• 52:53
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.