Latest / IB Unplugged / Ending Assessment as We Know It w/ David Spooner

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Ending Assessment as We Know It w/ David Spooner · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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Hi everybody!
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Welcome to this week's episode of IB Unplugged.
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For this episode, we are bringing back David Spooner.
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So for those of you
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who are with us on season one, David talked about demystifying TOK.
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And for this reason, in this episode, we brought him back to talk
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about education and keeping kind of this human element in the age of
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AI in your teaching and how to balance between the two of them.
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Now, for many of you, you'll remember, David, of course, he's a TOK teacher.
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He's, philosophy, English language and literature teacher as well.
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He's lead TOK workshops and he's written books in this sort of thing.
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And in this episode here, we're not necessarily focusing
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on any of those subjects, per se.
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We're focusing on what does it mean to be an educator in the age of AI.
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So if you're asking yourself questions like how many of these tools should
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I start to be using?
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And why should I be using these tools with my students themselves?
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Or even just sort of asking yourself, like, am I just churning this machine
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to try to get students ready for assessment?
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Am I kind of missing the point of education?
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Then, you know, we've got something really great for you with this episode here.
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It's such a pleasure to have David back to talk with us on these topics, and let's
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bring him out onto the show.
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Hello, David.
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Welcome back to IB Unplugged, our first repeat guest.
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We're so glad to have you back.
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My word. John. Hi. How are you?
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I'm so honored to have been brought back for season three.
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Are we all now or halfway through season two?
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Still in season two.
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But we tell you what we were just so excited to to keep chatting with you.
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And we think back to the first episode that we got to do together.
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There were lots of areas where we thought, oh, we could we could dive into that.
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We could have a whole separate episode on that.
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We could have a whole thing there. So, we're really excited
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and thanks so much for coming back to chat with us again.
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It's my absolute pleasure.
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I mean, I'm honored beyond belief.
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I'm also feeling a little bit of, imposter syndrome.
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But, let's say you, the two of you,
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one a cocktail waiter,
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John. And,
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the effervescent Courtney.
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Well, we're looking forward to it nonetheless.
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So, we've done kind of the warm up questions with you before and,
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and for our listeners or,
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you know, if you haven't already listened to the first episode with David Spooner,
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then by all means, go back and check that out.
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It's it's really quite a gem.
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So as such, we're kind of skips coming to some of the normal warm up questions.
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And now let's get a little bit more into the heart of some of these things here.
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And specifically, I want to know, because the last time we spoke,
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I thought there was so much richness
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to what you were talking about and specifically around TOK
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and what we can do as educators.
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And so I'm just interested to know
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where do you find the most inspiration and meaning in your teaching?
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It's a nice question.
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I mean, and I think the answer to it, also includes the, the word meaning.
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We live in a world where we are increasingly
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pressured to try to make sense
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of a variety of different stimuli.
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And we are constantly, what's the phrase?
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We're permanently online.
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We're constantly being saturated
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with images, ideas, content.
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And trying to piece together
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the various concepts that are surrounding us every day,
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trying to make meaning out of the various
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phenomena that we encounter,
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every waking moment of every single day.
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I think that's the job of educators to help young adults
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and even younger students than young adults,
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to negotiate that, to try to find how to
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form patterns, to make connections,
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and to have,
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or to encourage students to develop
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some kind of filtering mechanism,
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that will help them connect those dots
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and to make meaning out of
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random series of phenomena that appear meaningless.
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And I think that's where I get my inspiration from helping students
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to make meaning in
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what Friedrich Nietzsche would call a meaningless world.
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And maybe that answers my question of what the point of education is to you, but
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is there anything else that you feel like is really core,
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in this kind of meaning?
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The point of education
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becomes increasingly important.
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The point of education is to help young people to make meaning,
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to construct meaning, in a seemingly meaningless world.
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And the point of education has always been to
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prepare students for the so-called real world, right?
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I don't understand what is unreal about the world of education,
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but we're constantly told that
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our job is to help prepare students for the real world.
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And, increasingly
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in the age of encroaching,
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ever more encroaching artificial intelligence into our lives,
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the pressures on young people to be seduced by
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a device or technology
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which offers them the seduction
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of having meaning made for them is something that I think
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we increasingly, as educators, need to help them to navigate.
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So the point of education has always been to help
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prepare students for the so-called real world,
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as if their daily 9 to 5 were not real enough.
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But the best way in which we can
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do that is help them to make meaning
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in the, you know, the fundamental, constructivist sense
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of helping them to spot patterns,
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to see connections, in this,
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kind of random world
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of phenomena that don't initially seem
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to have any connection, the one phenomenon with another.
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It's so refreshing to hear somebody say that, because often
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when we start talking about what's the point of education, people
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will kind of go down the, the typical roads, right, of, well,
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you got to be prepared for the economy or we need
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be ready for democracy to be a participant in socio cultural sort of things.
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And, and so I like that sort of stepping back on just let's,
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let's make meaning of what was otherwise a meaningless world.
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And I especially like that perspective of the real world
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is obviously something that anybody is experiencing at that moment.
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As opposed to saying it's somewhere else, something intangible
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that you haven't come to yet.
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Now, you've alluded to it already in this answer.
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And I know we we kind of spoke about it in the previous episode.
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And those of you who've been listening for a while know
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we've been talking about AI quite a bit and the changing landscape of education.
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And so now I'm just interested from your point of view, David,
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as we go through these changes in this educational landscape,
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what do you feel
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are the essential elements that must stay, not that are going to stay,
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but we as educators have to be intentional about ensuring that they stay.
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I, I think one of the things that,
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as IB educators, we are
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sometimes guilty of increasingly losing sight of
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is that we're not in the business of knowledge transmission.
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And, you know, when it comes to five year evaluations and so on
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and so forth, we can talk the talk and we can persuade the,
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evaluators that, you know, we are actually in the business of,
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encouraging students to understand
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rather than merely to acquire knowledge.
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But in our day to day practice, I think there's sometimes goes out of the window.
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And I think we have to revisit,
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in, in what you call this educational landscape,
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we have to revisit our fundamental commitment
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to our pedagogy.
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And remind ourselves that that when not mere,
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facilitators of knowledge transmission,
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because the knowledge doesn't need to be acquired in high school
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and secondary school, that knowledge doesn't need to be acquired.
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Where we come in is helping students to understand
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the connections between different,
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if you like, areas of knowledge,
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the connections between different ideas and concepts.
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The knowledge itself is merely the vehicle
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for encouraging students to understand the connections
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between those different areas of knowledge and so on.
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And we need to remind ourselves that we're in the business
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of helping students to understand rather than to know,
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to make meaning out of that understanding
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rather than learning stuff.
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And the, the, the kind of tech borrows, and so on.
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I think want us to forget that
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they want us to replace
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and they're encouraging us to replace,
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the centrality
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of understanding and making meaning
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with simply acquiring knowledge and then applying it.
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And I'm I'm going to repeat, I think, something
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which is becoming a basic sort of axiom for me, this knowledge
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that we, are dealing with in secondary
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school doesn't need to be learned.
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It's not the acquisition of the knowledge that matters.
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Right?
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I read, a few months ago there was a very,
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pertinent, tweet or whatever it's called now.
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An X,
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there was very sort of memetic,
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but nonetheless it stuck, stuck with me and it said,
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the the using AI in
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the classroom is like using a forklift truck in the gym.
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The weights don't need to be moved from place to place.
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It's what happens to you
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while you're pumping iron or whatever it is people do in gyms.
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I've never been to one in my life, so I don't know.
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It's it's what you do while you're pumping iron that matters.
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Yeah. Not the pumping of the iron.
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And I was really inspired by,
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one of your most recent podcasts with,
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Jennifer Brownsburg Engelman.
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And it changed, quite
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a few, things in my, teaching.
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And it inspired, certain reflections in my teaching.
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And I've been using her podcast with my TOK students
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because they all do economics that constant challenging of axioms
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reminds us and
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remind students that it's not about acquiring
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knowledge of Keynesian supply and demand curves.
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It's about recognizing the human, in that way
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of looking at the relationships
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between markets and human beings.
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The whether you learn about Keynesian
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supply and demand is almost irrelevant.
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It's what you're doing whilst you're doing that,
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acquiring of knowledge that matters.
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Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense.
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And I think I, I do like the gym analogy.
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And I think that's something that we've talked about in a couple of episodes.
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We talk about it all the time at Kognity, like it's so
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maybe dangerous is extreme, but it's detrimental
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to recklessly use technology in classrooms because then, of course,
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if you use bad tech, just like if you read bad books,
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like not bad, as in banned but as like poorly researched,
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poorly developed, any kind of resources that you're using.
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If they're not actually helping learning, then what's the point?
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It's taking up space. It's taking up energy, time,
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it's stressful for teachers and students to learn how to use these tools.
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And I think that, yeah, it goes the same with AI.
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If if everyone just going through the motions
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without having meaningful learning, then yeah, there is no point.
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This really
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sets the scene quite well for what we want to be talking about today,
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because I think often while while I agree, and I would imagine many people
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who are listening will agree with you, David,
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with this idea of like the content is kind of the vehicle
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for the great learning and the great connections
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and the meaning making that goes on, obviously where we are or to a certain
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extent bound by an assessment that has a fair amount of content in it.
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Now, kudos and credit to to the IB,
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because I know they are aware of these things
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and they're developing them and they're making adjustments in this sort of thing.
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And at the same time, it's still content heavy.
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Kids need to know a lot of specific stuff.
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And I think in the age of AI and its onset,
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the content thing we're talking about
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is like, well, we have to ask better questions.
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We have to ask questions that aren't just
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AI abhor right things that that students actually have to do the heavy lifting.
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To use your analogy, so they can learn from.
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And so it's really making us reevaluate.
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But I think this comes to this idea now,
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to what extent are we talking about shifting
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the assessment model to try to make things a little bit more meaningful?
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Or is it do we have to kind of get rid of assessment in general?
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Because we are in this age of AI.
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And I guess to start the the conversation off, let's dive into
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maybe this first part of like education, artificial intelligence itself.
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How did we go from assessment
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for learning as a way of helping students understand
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this is what I know and this is what I still need to learn.
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And here's how I can apply this in different ways
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to now assessment of learning
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specifically with grades, qualifications, that sort of stuff really driving
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so much of what students are trying to do as they go through the diploma program.
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Get ready for for university.
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Let's let's talk about that for a little bit.
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How did that come about and where do you think we are right now
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and that sort of move
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now in conjunction with AI?
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Well, a fascinating question.
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How did it come about?
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I think the, the, the, the seed,
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that was planted was planted about 30 or 40 years ago.
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Right?
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This idea that, we are assessing,
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skills gradually got, supplanted by the idea
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that what we are assessing is,
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the acquisition of knowledge of subjects.
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And it's always been, in the DNA of the IB that things like TOK
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will disappear, and become,
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a natural part of the teaching of other subjects.
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But whilst we're still siloing areas
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of knowledge in different subjects,
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from the inception of the, of the diploma program,
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we were always going to end up here.
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It was inevitable that we were going to end up here
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because there's no real way to assess skills.
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But there is a really, really easy way to assess content,
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knowledge, understanding, ability to apply content knowledge
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and understanding to, a range of,
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hitherto unforeseen circumstances or phenomena.
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Right?
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And at the same time, at the same time,
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we've increasingly moved away, I think, from,
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what the
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originators, or at least the pedagogical originators of the,
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the IB diploma, had in mind,
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you know, Dewey's idea of,
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education for creativity, or rather education
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as a way of allowing students to demonstrate their creativity
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was one of the sort of founding pedagogical principles of the
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of the International Baccalaureate Organization, let alone just the DP.
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But that creativity is being,
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has been slowly squeezed out of the diploma.
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It's been injected into the PYP and the MYP,
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but it's being slowly squeezed out of the diploma.
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And when we think about as Neil's idea of,
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student agency as being at the center of their learning,
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that too has been, slowly,
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squeezed out, I think.
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And so you, subtract,
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student creativity, you subtract student agency.
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All you're left with really is assessment, not,
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of or for learning, but assessment, terminal assessment
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of what they have learned during two years.
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And at the same time,
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I think Michael Sandel, the, Harvard University
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professor of philosophy, has,
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highlighted the kind of sociological,
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part of this pincer movement.
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Right?
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And he wrote a book a few years ago called The Tyranny of Merit
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and the Idea of Meritocracy has taken hold,
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at least in the Western world over the last sort of 20, 25 years.
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And the, the, the, the,
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the concept of meritocracy is quite pernicious in one sense.
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I mean, it sounds nice, right?
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You have worked hard and you have acquired all of this
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well-being or whatever it is, by dint of your own efforts.
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But the reason he calls it the tyranny of merit is that
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it becomes a very isolating philosophy
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for a society to propound, because it cuts the individual off
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from the rest of the, of their society, the rest of their surroundings.
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I have gained what I have gained by dint of my own,
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hard work, and nobody else has any right to it.
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But of course, nobody, gets anything
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by dint of only their own hard work.
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You come to school by bus every morning.
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There are people paid to keep the streets clean.
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There are people paid to construct and maintain those roads.
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Putting in a great shift at school
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and, you know, acing, your homework, that's one thing.
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But you wouldn't have been able to accomplish any of that,
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without the help of other, human beings.
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And and yet this concept of meritocracy
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is part of the same pincer movement
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that, has operated to shift the focus
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to assessment for grades and qualifications as being
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the only measurable way in which student
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attainment, can be displayed.
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You see so much that present with students and their parents as well.
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I mean, I think any IBDP coordinator or university
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encourage guidance counselor would recognize this or right away,
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whether, you know, students are trying to apply to universities
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or something like this,
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and you suddenly have to do predicted grades or you have to give specific
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merit judgments on, here's how you can judge this individual
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on sort of this horizontal discourse of where everybody else is leveled out.
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It's like this person stands above this person because of these things,
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and then it becomes the main,
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in many cases, one of the main motivators for for young people
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and especially for certain parents, you know, when they
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when they're choosing schools or when they're looking at how
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well a school does, they're of course, coming back to
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what are the grades and how well they're performing.
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But they only care about that because it's then
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what what university is my kid going to get into?
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I'm paying for this school, right, to make sure that they can get into XYZ
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University also, which then just sort of fills up
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that that earlier philosophy of like, well, we're educating for the economy.
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And it to me it feels like there's a when we think in that meritocracy,
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we think of the grades and that sort of thing.
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It's very much just we're pushing back to make sure that you can be successful.
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In other words, you can earn some money and be doing okay in society
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as opposed to what you were talking about at the top of the show,
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having the ability to make
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meaning out of many different things that are going on in the world around you.
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And so I'm wondering, especially now, where we definitely see a fair amount of,
22:15
unethical use
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of AI tools and that sort of thing from students who maybe are saying, well,
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if this is so meritocratic and I have to earn this particular thing
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in order to get recognized, to go on to university to do this next thing,
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why not take this particular option to get me there?
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And you see, I think where if we are so grades focused,
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our assignments maybe are not as strong and they're no longer
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they're not encouraging the soon to think for themselves.
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They're actually encouraging the soon
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to use an AI or some other thing to get past it.
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And they think of education as something they can just get past
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so they can get on to university and then to that next thing.
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There's part of me that just wonders,
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do we have to really destroy a sort of this model of assessment
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to get back to the root of what we really want to do with, with generating people
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or helping to create people
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who can contribute positively to societies and democracy.
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And all this sort of stuff.
23:06
Yeah.
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If you're if you have this is kind of that urge.
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It's almost like AI is kind of giving us that push of like, hey,
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either I have to change it now or,
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or deal with what we're going to, what we're going to see from our students.
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Beautifully expressed. There's
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I hesitate to call him a philosopher of technology.
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There's a technologist, called, Jaron Lanier who,
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he wrote a book a few years ago called I Am Not a Gadget.
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And he, he has this beautiful phrase in it
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called the Apocalypse of Self Application.
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And we come back to the forklift truck in the, in the gym.
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Right?
23:45
Moving the weights about acquiring knowledge is not what,
23:51
either exercise or education is about.
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But we have been encouraged.
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Teachers have been de-skilled,
24:00
and encouraged to, believe
24:04
that because of this pressure from parents, from students themselves,
24:08
from our colleagues, from our administrators,
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from educational institutions, because we have been encouraged to believe
24:16
that the overriding purpose of secondary education
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is to get kids into college come what may.
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We have been encouraged to
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adopt a very, very utilitarian approach to assessment.
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Predicted grades are about data points that we can,
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look back at during the 18 months of,
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diploma studies, and we can mathematically calculate what really
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we can mathematically calculate a predicted grade. For a human.
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Right, for humans. This kid is a 5.6 human being.
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So please accept them onto your course.
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Yeah.
25:00
And we wrap ourselves up
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in not trying to appease universities
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where we I remember we discussed in, in our previous meeting,
25:12
we have to stop kowtowing to universities.
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We have to start telling them
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what kinds of students we are going to be sending them,
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rather than allowing them to dictate to us what kind of students they want.
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I mean, we,
25:30
we, secondary, primary and middle school educators
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have arguably one of the most important jobs in the world,
25:38
and that is to educate young people,
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to educate future adults.
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It's not for universities to tell us
25:47
how we should be molding or socially engineering 12 year olds.
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It's for those of us who know what 12 year olds are like
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to be telling universities, this is how you should be re-engineering
26:01
your courses to suit the kinds of human beings
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that we think, society
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needs, not the other way around.
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It's a you know, I remember we spoke about that in our earlier one.
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That got me thinking quite a bit too, because I, I'm often one to go
26:17
knocking at the door of the university and go, come on, you got to sort this out
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and there's been some cool work there, by the way.
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I mean, for our listeners, if you've
26:23
if you go back and listen to, things like the learner passport with Conrad and,
26:27
and some of these, these other great ideas that are coming up
26:30
that are kind of pushing at universities and saying, hey, we're going to
26:32
we are going to establish who who you're going to see.
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And at the same time, I'm also conflicted, thinking,
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well, certainly, I work with people at universities.
26:41
They can be smart.
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They're intelligent individuals who know, like, no,
26:44
this isn't the only thing that matters.
26:46
And we we do see ourselves as co constructors of a society as well.
26:50
So there is like this giant machine, I guess, if you will, a giant system
26:54
that isn't just,
26:55
I think, the admissions counselors at universities,
26:57
but there is this sort of meritocracy, as you're saying, that kind of
27:01
embeds itself, and I
27:02
guess makes this challenge even more challenging.
27:05
What makes this problem even more difficult.
27:08
But, you know, one thing I've really appreciated
27:11
about getting to know you, David, as is how much you
27:14
you dive into this idea of of critical thinking.
27:17
You dive into this idea of inquiry skills, really contributing
27:21
to that human experience and helping people understand who they are
27:24
and how to make meaning.
27:25
And I'm wondering, is there a way that we can,
27:28
if we focus more on that
27:29
development of critical thinking, if we focus more on that inquiry skills,
27:32
do we kind of remold things without having to just say we're in a system
27:37
that we can't break right now, or we can only marginally chip away at it?
27:42
Does this development of
27:43
critical thinking inquiry skills allow us to do that more?
27:46
And should we as educators be pushing more emphasis on that?
27:49
It's a very seductive question.
27:51
I like it, let let's let's flip it a little bit.
27:55
Right?
27:56
The, the overwhelming pressure seems to be coming from
28:00
this idea that we have accepted technological determinism,
28:05
as a kind of inevitable sign of progress.
28:09
Whatever progress means, right?
28:11
So we need to have more and more edtech
28:15
because, technology is the future and all this kind of thing, right?
28:20
We need to be integrating untested,
28:24
longitudinally untested, edtech into our classrooms.
28:29
Because in 20 years time, we're all going to be robots or whatever it might be.
28:33
Right?
28:34
We seem to have,
28:35
and I come back to Jaron Lanier,
28:37
we seem to have abdicated, our humanness, as as educators,
28:44
we seem to have abdicated our humanness in this thing.
28:48
All of a sudden, every class, there's a Kahoot.
28:52
I'm sorry to name the competitors, but every class has a Kahoot!
28:56
Or every class has an online quiz or something like that.
29:00
But we haven't really stopped to think about as you,
29:04
John, as a biologist, must have done the,
29:08
cerebral rewiring
29:11
the that that much interaction with technology
29:14
is going to do to the average biological human brain.
29:19
Yeah.
29:20
But because we are so seduced by this idea
29:23
of technological determinism, we're going along with it.
29:27
And we educators ourselves are using
29:31
large language learning models, to,
29:35
plan classes or units of classes.
29:38
Why on earth is any educator
29:41
using a large language learning model to plan,
29:46
a class or a series of classes?
29:49
The usual argument is it saves time.
29:53
Well, if you're wanting to save time from thinking
29:57
about the planning of your classes, maybe you should,
30:02
not be a teacher.
30:04
I'm going to be quite Luddite and, you know,
30:08
quite demanding about this, right?
30:12
What a large language learning model
30:14
or even an AI can't do is
30:17
tell you what it's going to be like to experience
30:21
the class that it is putting together for you.
30:24
It can't tell you, what your possible experiences
30:29
of running that unit of work in the classroom might be like,
30:35
because only you as a human educator can know that.
30:39
And so why aren't you constructing your class
30:45
plans?
30:46
Why aren't you constructing your own units of work?
30:49
Because only you can see what the potential flaws, are going to be.
30:55
It's why I talk about AI and large language learning models
30:59
de-skilling teachers.
31:02
Because part of, the the the skill,
31:06
the art of teaching is not just the, the the 80 minutes
31:10
or whatever of classroom interaction with students.
31:14
It's the thinking and the planning of how that interaction is going to look over
31:19
the course of that 40 minutes or 1 hour and 20 minutes or whatever it is now,
31:26
does that mean that we should, strive to prohibit students
31:31
from using AI or large language learning models?
31:35
Well, too late that horses already bolted right?
31:39
I think we spend a lot of time wastefully
31:43
also trying to encourage students,
31:46
the average 17 year old,
31:49
to ethically cite
31:52
AI use in their assignments and whatever.
31:56
That's never going to happen either, because they just don't, right?
31:59
They try to get away with it.
32:01
The more conscientious ones will.
32:04
But most of the time, in my experience, they don't.
32:08
And I suspect
32:10
most educators like you and I
32:14
and those listening to this
32:17
know that students aren't going to bother doing that because they're probably going
32:21
to get away with not having to do it, but they're still going to use AI.
32:26
So it then becomes, when it comes to critically thinking
32:30
about the effects of AI on human beings
32:35
and human relationships, helping them to develop the skills
32:39
to critically assess what it is pumping out to them.
32:44
And how and why becomes important.
32:47
I was reading an article this morning in, the British Guardian newspaper
32:53
about how increasingly aid agencies
32:57
are turning to AI generated, photographs
33:02
to use, in their campaigns.
33:06
And on the one hand, the argument runs that they're concerned
33:11
about the ethics of using photographs of, of real human beings
33:17
in conditions of poverty or suffering and so on.
33:21
And therefore, in order to obviate that negative
33:25
portrayal of people who are suffering, they're turning to AI.
33:31
But the algorithms generating,
33:35
what some people have called, poverty
33:38
porn photographs raises a whole set of issues.
33:43
Now, students and educators are still going to come across those images.
33:47
We're still going to use them in our classrooms.
33:53
But what's
33:54
important is not the product but the process.
33:58
And when it comes to thinking about how we can use AI in the classroom
34:04
because we inevitably have to,
34:06
I think we should be focusing more on the process and not the product.
34:10
And I think sometimes we're focusing more on the product
34:14
rather than the process.
34:17
Becoming a better
34:18
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34:22
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34:23
and episodes from IB Unplugged,
34:26
like the one you are listening to right now.
34:28
But sometimes the show can go a bit too quickly, or we can simply forget
34:31
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34:33
or back from our walk and in the office preparing for our next lesson.
34:37
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34:42
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34:55
Now back to the show.
34:58
There's a lot to unpack and I think if I'm
35:01
looking at the different pieces there, I think
35:05
the first part where you're talking about like teachers
35:07
using AI,
35:10
I think there's a few pieces there that I think are interesting
35:13
in what I agree most with you is like the human heart
35:18
is the most important part, and I think AI without humans
35:23
is not good in a classroom.
35:26
Like I think that it's it's super problematic.
35:30
I agree, I it's never going to understand,
35:33
the nuance about what creates a great learning experience for the students.
35:39
When I think about maybe what could be a good
35:42
example is when it's what's the point
35:46
just to save time, it's like,
35:47
well, then what are you going to spend that time on instead?
35:51
Is it
35:52
I'm going to take like for example, with Kognity I mean, David,
35:55
you were one of the authors, one of the Kognity resources
35:58
you've poured so much time and energy into thinking
36:02
of really great examples,
36:05
in the resources, really great learning experience is there
36:09
if you're then developing lesson plans using AI, but starting with
36:16
content that someone like you
36:18
or any of our other authors created, and then you say like,
36:23
okay, let's tailor this to my classroom and you make your whole prompt.
36:27
And then it's like, great.
36:28
I've now used like examples coming from experts.
36:33
I've found a process that speeds that up for me.
36:37
And then I review it as a teacher, and I make changes
36:42
based on what I know will resonate with my class.
36:46
I think that's where it actually can become something positive,
36:51
and I think that's where it actually can become meaningful,
36:55
a meaningful process that's not just dumbing things down,
36:59
but it's speeding things up to then if you're spending that time
37:03
building out your lessons more, giving more,
37:08
thoughtful and productive and constructive feedback
37:11
on your marking, things like that, then I see it as positive.
37:16
So I think that's just one one piece that I think is an important distinction,
37:21
where is it,
37:23
okay, I use AI, therefore I'm a bad teacher because now I'm lazy
37:27
if you're not doing anything with that time.
37:30
Otherwise, if you're not thoughtfully
37:32
considering the way that you develop your classes, it's not great.
37:35
But if you're using it in a constructive way, I do think there is
37:40
a positive thing that could then transfer over to your students.
37:43
Then you can show to your students that there are ways
37:46
that we're not going to hide in the sand from AI, but,
37:51
the process,
37:52
like you said, is so important to get it right
37:55
and to keep the human parts in it as well.
37:59
Yes. I mean, one of the things that,
38:02
I mean aside from hallucinations and all of that stuff, right,
38:07
one of the things which is true about large language learning models
38:11
is that they never make mistakes apart from hallucinations, right?
38:15
They invent stuff which never happened, but more or less,
38:20
the output from ChatGPT or some such is
38:24
is is rarely irrational and it's rarely wrong.
38:29
It rarely makes mistakes.
38:31
But what human being can be
38:34
said to, do those things?
38:37
I mean, human beings make mistakes all the time.
38:40
Sometimes I give really boring, terrible lessons.
38:45
And sometimes, students
38:47
don't do what I have programed them to do.
38:50
And this is part of, the the experience of education, right?
38:56
I mean, not every lesson can be a zinger, and not every learning,
39:00
teaching and learning experience can be in a wow, eureka moment.
39:07
But again, it's about process, not product.
39:09
Right?
39:11
One of the resources that that,
39:14
I developed when we worked together ages ago, for Kognity,
39:21
was a,
39:22
a classroom activity called Poker Face and,
39:26
as briefly as possible.
39:28
Basically, it's a card game, and it involves three rounds of playing cards.
39:34
And the students have to try and guess the hidden rule.
39:39
I remember this because I had to get like, because it was like,
39:42
okay, we're technically producing something that's talking about gambling.
39:45
Are we allowed to do I don't know, let's just go.
39:49
Sorry. Continue.
39:50
I just remembered this.
39:53
So, there are three rounds of the game, as it were, and the students
39:58
in small groups have to try and guess what the hidden rule is
40:02
that I'm using to either accept or reject their cards.
40:06
And, the kind of trick is this, right?
40:09
In the first two rounds, the the hidden rule is based
40:13
on the cards themselves, either the numbers or the colors
40:17
or the sweets, or something like that of a standard deck of playing cards.
40:22
But the in the third round,
40:25
it's not based on anything to do with the cards themselves.
40:29
You know, teachers can invent a stupid rule like I will only accept cards,
40:34
handed by a male student with the right hand who is smiling.
40:40
Because the the
40:40
students have become so programed to think that the the hidden rule
40:45
must be to do with the data contained in the cards,
40:49
the rug is pulled out from under them.
40:52
With that third game.
40:53
Now, you couldn't possibly,
40:57
ask ChatGPT
40:59
to predict what the hidden rule is going to be,
41:03
and you couldn't possibly, ask it halfway through the game.
41:07
What do you think the third rule is going to be?
41:12
But watching students and being with students
41:16
while that that rug is pulled out from under them
41:19
and hearing the recriminations and hearing the,
41:24
you know, the problems that they had with with my structuring of the game
41:28
and listening to the winds and the moans and the it's not fair,
41:33
Mr.. David. Now I don't have lunch money. Mr. David.
41:38
That's right.
41:39
Catching. Thank you very much.
41:41
That can that cannot be planned by,
41:45
an artificial intelligence and it can't be designed,
41:50
because that that on the ground,
41:52
being with the students is not possibly something that can be designed,
41:59
by any other program than a human program, I think.
42:03
What I actually like about that game,
42:05
and one of the things you mentioned before, I was
42:07
I really want to get in on that is it reminded me of Jennifer's episode.
42:10
You were just talking about Jennifer's episode with economics.
42:12
And I think one of the key things
42:13
that really struck me with that was the assumptions we make.
42:17
And in her episode, it was all about, you know,
42:18
we assume that the market is kind of everything.
42:20
And what you were just talking about a moment ago was this idea of, we're
42:24
almost assuming that we have to follow
42:27
this, this techification of of life.
42:30
We have to we have to say, well, we are going to become integrated with AI.
42:34
We must do these things, and we have to follow this assessment model.
42:38
And it almost prevents us from really thinking about it like a system like.
42:42
And as you're talking about here, education itself, these can be things
42:45
that can be put into education to help assist this along the way.
42:50
But we have to constantly be questioning whatever assumptions we might be making.
42:54
And, you know, like what you just mentioned, Courtney,
42:56
I agree with a lot of that.
42:57
You know, you can
42:58
you can use these tools that can help to make things more efficient.
43:02
It's what we're doing with the rest of our time that I think really matters.
43:05
And I know, you know, just watching kind of the screen here.
43:08
David, I know you were applauding that as well.
43:09
That idea of like, you are freeing up time and what are you using that time for?
43:14
And I think critically, we've really got to get back to
43:17
what are the assumptions we're making, what are the assumptions
43:19
we're not totally aware of that we think are true,
43:22
but we're not really asking that fundamental question.
43:24
As we unpacked in your first episode, how do I know?
43:26
How do I know that this is the most important thing that's moving us forward?
43:30
How do I know
43:31
that this assessment model or whatever I'm doing is going to determine
43:35
if I'm going to be a positive contributor to society or something like that?
43:38
And so I think, yes, use the models or use the things to kind of free up your time.
43:43
I mean, they're effectively a teaching resource.
43:45
But at the same time, think about what do we actually use
43:47
with that extra time that might be there?
43:49
And are we developing the critical thinking?
43:51
Are we developing the inquiry as it sounds like this,
43:53
you know, this poker face game really does.
43:55
Right? Develops our inquiry idea of
43:57
why did that go the way it did? And I thought it was going this way.
44:00
Well, let's unpack that. Why did you think it was going that way?
44:02
And how can we apply that to our own lives right now?
44:06
Why do we think that education or knowledge or assessments for that
44:10
matter, are going to stop being useful?
44:12
Because now there's this tool that exists.
44:15
So I think it kind of leads us on to maybe one of the last things
44:18
I want to kind of bring up, or that we could talk about
44:20
in this particular episode.
44:21
And, and that's just this idea of how are we staying human
44:25
in that lions landscape, in the modern education?
44:27
How are we going to evolve as a society in the age of AI?
44:32
What sort of assumptions do we need to,
44:34
you know, question and pull the rug out from under
44:38
so that we can have a better idea of what we are actually learning,
44:41
what we're trying to develop, young people to be contributors for.
44:45
I think
44:46
my answer to that is contained in your question, John.
44:49
And again, we come back to the podcast that inspired me with Jennifer.
44:54
Right? And, and also,
44:57
Wakanye Hoffman's podcast,
44:59
which was, also inspiring to me and which I've used in the classroom.
45:06
I created a TOK
45:08
task for my students, with that podcast.
45:12
So this is where most of the hits feel podcasts are coming from.
45:15
I'm using in the classroom.
45:19
The questioning
45:20
of assumptions in the The Poker Face game.
45:24
There were a few rules, but there wasn't a rule about collaboration.
45:29
And so because I divided the students into groups, they assumed
45:33
that the whole thing was competitive and therefore they had to compete
45:37
with each other and hide information from each other.
45:41
But there was no rule saying that they couldn't just combine their resources.
45:47
Had they done so, the game would have been over in two seconds flat.
45:51
Right?
45:52
But the assumption there,
45:54
was that that we have to be competitive.
45:58
The assumption behind the use of edtech
46:01
is that it helps to give our students an edge.
46:06
They assumption behind using large language learning models
46:11
to give you ideas for an essay,
46:14
which you then take and rewrite in your own words.
46:18
The assumption is that it gives you an edge in some way.
46:22
The idea of asking, a large language learning model essentially
46:27
John Sayles Chinese room, the assumption is that,
46:32
it can
46:32
give you an edge in this meritocratic society that we have created in this,
46:39
technologically deterministic landscape that we're currently inhabiting.
46:46
But one of the assumptions that we are permitted to stop and question
46:50
fundamentally is why on earth are we learning any of this stuff?
46:55
Why are we acquiring knowledge in economics
46:59
or in mathematics or business management or psychology or whatever it might be?
47:04
Why are we why are we doing this when there's no quintessential
47:09
need for that knowledge to be acquired?
47:14
And by, again, by siphoning off
47:19
or siloing out subjects into different,
47:24
areas of knowledge, we're discouraging,
47:28
the very things that the IB was set up to, to, foster
47:32
and to promote in the first place, the idea of transdisciplinarity,
47:37
the idea of student creativity and student agency. And
47:44
when it comes to therefore saving time.
47:48
And why are we using certain things in order to save ourselves time?
47:53
Well, the time that we save needs to be spent
47:56
on thinking about those things, not how can I become a better
48:00
educator of whatever it might be, computer science or chemistry?
48:06
But how can I become a better educator
48:09
of young adults, of 15 to 17 year olds,
48:14
who are going to shortly be,
48:16
inhabiting a world that you and I when we were young?
48:20
Well, I, when I was younger, because you're both still spring chickens.
48:25
I could never, have imagined.
48:29
And so we are at the same
48:32
time, nonetheless driven by,
48:36
wider society, by parental expectation, by,
48:40
peer pressure from our colleagues,
48:43
to, believe
48:46
that the be all and end all of our task
48:49
is to get students better and better grades.
48:53
But by and large, students get into the universities and colleges
48:57
that they want to get into, irrespective of whether my kids all get a seven
49:02
or a six or an A or a B,
49:05
they still managed to get into those who want to go to university,
49:10
still managed to get into good universities.
49:14
So why are we spending time trying to become better
49:19
teachers of increasingly, niche, narrow
49:23
subjects rather than, questioning
49:27
the very assumptions of those subjects and their place in society?
49:33
I think Jennifer mentioned, the Indian, thinker
49:37
and economist Amartya Sen and his idea of human flourishing.
49:43
Why are we not spending that freed up time
49:47
thinking about how better, as educators
49:50
we can promote human flourishing?
49:53
The American philosopher Martin Nussbaum calls it creating capabilities.
49:59
Why are we not spending more time as educators thinking about that?
50:05
Well, we know why.
50:07
Because the structural tensions
50:10
in this, endeavor
50:13
of education that we're all involved in
50:16
pushes more and more to not think about that stuff
50:21
and to think about grades and predicted grades.
50:26
And if it moves, give it a mark.
50:29
You want to go to the bathroom?
50:31
Depending on how long you take, I'm going to give you 40% or whatever.
50:36
And, such is the pressure from the top, from universities
50:41
into the diploma or A-levels or whatever it might be,
50:46
that that it rolls downwards.
50:49
We then put as diploma teachers pressure on MYP colleagues
50:54
and students to prepare themselves for the diploma that,
51:00
goes down into the PYP and, and all of a sudden we've got six
51:04
year olds with ridiculously large backpacks and three devices,
51:09
thinking that unless they can, get into Harvard
51:14
for their MBA, their life will have become meaningless.
51:18
It's all based on these, these assumptions.
51:21
And I think if we're not going to model how to think very critically about
51:25
why are we learning and effectively ask that question that you just said,
51:28
you know, if we are going to free up this amount of space,
51:31
why would we want to go ahead and become even better at this particular
51:34
niche thing?
51:34
Why not?
51:35
Let's just reevaluate.
51:36
Why are we education in the first place?
51:38
You know, that's kind of the question at the top of the show.
51:40
And I think one that we all need to consciously come back to as educators.
51:43
What's the point of this whole thing?
51:44
What are we really trying to do here?
51:46
And I think one, if as educators, we do that more,
51:50
it will naturally show up in our lessons as well.
51:52
And I think that will naturally lead students to start asking
51:55
those questions of like, well, why university do I do I need this one?
51:59
Do I have to go to that particular one
52:01
just because that's the one I've heard of multiple times?
52:04
I think the more we model it,
52:05
the more we will allow students to think more critically,
52:07
will allow them to be more inquiring about and to really ask those deeper questions
52:11
about stuff instead of just feeling like, you know, they're Pac-Man out there,
52:15
just going through getting as many grades as they can
52:16
so they can get on to the next, you know, university thing.
52:19
No, let's remember, there's a point and a meaning behind
52:23
this education that we're doing.
52:24
We're creating meaning out of a meaningless world.
52:26
To use what you've paraphrased earlier.
52:28
And I think when we really dive deeper into that
52:32
and we don't allow ourselves to just be thrown into follow
52:36
the assessment model, follow this thing so that we can get specific grades.
52:39
You are just there to facilitate and pour knowledge into this vessel
52:44
that needs to spit it back out later on, but rather dive deeper into the meaning
52:48
we're trying to create.
52:49
I think then we have the potential to create a really bright future.
52:53
We just have to be aware that if we don't think about it all the time,
52:58
then we could very easily fall,
52:59
you know, just just succumb to the path of least resistance, say, yep, use AI,
53:03
beat the assessment model, do well, go on to that university, whatever it is,
53:07
and we miss out the whole human experience of the real world
53:11
that we're preparing them for.
53:12
Or rather, the real world that they are experiencing with us.
53:17
Today's KogTip
53:18
is from Julius from Red Cross Nordic.
53:22
Julius says, encourage your students to use Kognity’s Practice section.
53:26
Your students have a great platform where they can put their knowledge and skills
53:29
to practice, get automatic feedback and compare their solutions.
53:33
And as teachers, we can get feedback on areas
53:36
where the class has strengths and weaknesses.
53:39
Thanks, Julius.
53:42
No, I agree because I mean, if we're talking
53:44
about preparing for the real world, like the real world has AI and I mean, I,
53:48
I've literally been in, in a job interview where I could tell
53:51
somebody was just like reading notes off of something else.
53:54
And it's like, no, I want the human answer.
53:57
So, I mean, it's going to permeate into every part of the real world after school.
54:04
So I think the technological determinism, I hear that,
54:07
but then I also think it's like, well, while I would love to have no technology
54:13
in a lot of situations in my own daughter's life, for example,
54:17
it's like you want to be like, great,
54:18
I want you to basically live in the woods for the first ten years of your life.
54:23
But then if we're thinking about it in a school context, it's like,
54:27
at what point is it a disservice
54:29
to not make sure that students can think critically about technology?
54:33
And part of that does mean interacting with it as well, and interacting with
54:38
good technology and being able to answer, why do I use it this way?
54:43
What's problematic about using it in incorrect ways?
54:47
And how do we do this in a meaningful way, where I am still learning,
54:51
not just using a forklift in the in the gym
54:55
and actually being able to be,
54:59
constructive contributor and have original thoughts.
55:02
And why is that? Why does that matter?
55:04
I think that's an essential part of also preparing for the real world.
55:09
I, I agree with you, fundamentally Courtney and not, but,
55:14
I, I find the, the kind of edtech,
55:19
playground.
55:21
The education has become a little bit, concerning, right?
55:26
Years and years ago,
55:28
before I lost my hand-eye coordination, I used to play a lot of Xbox.
55:32
Right?
55:33
And, around the time that I was, killing
55:36
strange alien beings with plasma rifles and stuff, I read a book
55:40
by a guy called Steven Johnson called Everything Bad Is Good for You.
55:45
And, in that book, he argued that
55:49
the kind of moral panic,
55:52
over violent video games and so on and so forth, was misplaced
55:58
because the, the skills that that the young people and,
56:02
and older people like myself were acquiring and putting into play
56:08
by engaging with such formats
56:11
were actually, very, very,
56:15
for want of a better word, educational.
56:17
Right?
56:18
Not just, sort of motor skills, but, but the conceptual understanding that,
56:23
that you need in order to play Minecraft or Halo
56:27
or even a GTA or something like that are phenomenal.
56:32
And that's what he was arguing.
56:35
All well and good.
56:36
Now, the problem with AI in the educational setting is that
56:42
it hasn't been around for long enough for there to be any longitudinal studies
56:48
about whatever it's either positive
56:52
or negative effects might be.
56:55
And in no other walk of life
56:58
would we accept that as being legitimate.
57:03
Right?
57:04
Except when it comes to technology
57:06
in education, it's like the Wild West.
57:09
We're taking anything that the tech pros throw at us,
57:14
and we're just running with it in the classroom.
57:17
Now, I read an analogy a couple of days ago.
57:20
If you walked into a cafe,
57:23
and a guy said to, you know, here I've got some great drugs
57:27
which are guaranteed to kill whatever you would insist, quite rightly,
57:31
on saying the, the, the peer reviewed,
57:35
publication, talking about the merits and demerits
57:39
of this drug, from, The Lancet or something.
57:43
But when it comes to technology in education,
57:46
we've already thrown our hands up and said, yeah, give it to us.
57:50
We will experiment with young people using this stuff.
57:55
And it's like we switched off our critical faculties.
57:58
There we go.
57:59
We switched off the critical faculties,
58:02
which normally would lead us to
58:06
be initially skeptical about
58:10
accepting into educational settings,
58:16
something which claims to be positive for education,
58:21
until such time as the results have come in.
58:26
Except when it comes to edtech.
58:28
It's like bang it in the classroom.
58:30
And let's experiment on young people with it.
58:34
And then in 40 years, we'll see what mush their brains have become,
58:39
by which time it will be too late.
58:42
Thinking critically about technology,
58:47
at secondary and middle school,
58:50
even primary education, yes, is necessary,
58:54
but engaging with it in order to think critically about it
58:59
isn't necessarily,
59:03
hell, I'm going to repeat the word “necessary”,
59:05
isn't necessarily necessary.
59:08
We can think critically about it sociologically,
59:12
societally and so on and so forth.
59:15
But until the results are in, in terms of what it actually does
59:19
to the human brain, I think we need to hold fire a little bit.
59:23
It reminds me, actually, of the episode we did with Gareth,
59:27
and he was talking about when you speak with,
59:29
with edtech providers, one of the first things he does
59:31
is, you know, what cognitive principles is this thing founded on?
59:33
And I know, you know, Courtney and stuff like Kognity does,
59:37
there's a ton of effort and research going into why does this thing work here
59:42
and why are we promoting it the way we are?
59:44
Well, it's based on specific cognitive strategies and
59:47
and things that we know about how we can develop that cognition
59:49
and metacognition in young people.
59:51
And so I agree with you to that extent, David.
59:53
I think the idea of like, let's not just grab the VR
59:57
goggles or grab whatever it might be and run with it because it seems fun.
1:00:01
Let's recognize there is a tool here, but we need to evaluate its usefulness.
1:00:06
And yeah, we may not have the empirical studies
1:00:10
yet. I think it's still
1:00:11
important we ask the question, why was this created the way it was?
1:00:14
Why have you created this edtech thing like this?
1:00:17
What is what is that based on?
1:00:19
What sort of theories informed this?
1:00:21
And that might get us again, it's that critical thinking element.
1:00:26
It's not just accepting it as the thing, it's asking the question why?
1:00:29
And I think we need to model it.
1:00:32
We need to see our young people doing that as well.
1:00:34
And yeah, I think in everything that we do as educators,
1:00:37
when we're with our young people, where
1:00:38
we're role modeling that not just pouring in the actual knowledge itself.
1:00:42
So hopefully that will then bring out,
1:00:45
more of that critical thinking from young people as well.
1:00:47
Now, I say that and criticism myself, knowing that hope is not a strategy,
1:00:51
but can be useful nonetheless.
1:00:53
Yeah.
1:00:54
No, I, I definitely agree, and I see I really do empathize with the point
1:00:58
when I really think, of course, it's so important to make sure
1:01:02
that you're not just throwing random edtech at students.
1:01:08
That is
1:01:08
so critical, as we've talked about in a lot of episodes of like,
1:01:11
how do you know what a good tool is or not?
1:01:14
And I think that John had a really good point of like,
1:01:17
are there fundamental learning principles behind it?
1:01:20
Like, I know at Kognity,
1:01:22
it's something that I, I wouldn't be able to stand behind
1:01:25
working in a company that was throwing random tech at students.
1:01:30
There's a reason why AI has been out for quite a bit of time.
1:01:34
We haven't released anything yet.
1:01:36
It's not because
1:01:37
we don't care.
1:01:38
It's because we want to do everything thoughtfully.
1:01:40
And I think that it's really important on the edtech provider side, of course.
1:01:44
But also you were talking about like de-skilling of teachers.
1:01:48
I think one really important skill of teachers is also to be able
1:01:51
to evaluate the tools that they bring into their classroom.
1:01:55
Teachers got really good at evaluating textbooks
1:01:57
because they've been doing it for a long time.
1:02:00
It's they're pretty confident in deciding which ones are good or not,
1:02:04
even if they're not peer reviewed at all.
1:02:07
They're just released.
1:02:08
And, you know,
1:02:09
there are quality controls and things like that, just like edtech tools.
1:02:13
But I think that it is down to the teacher to look at a textbook
1:02:18
and make sure it's not just pure
1:02:21
propaganda or a horrible, not resourced,
1:02:25
not referenced text.
1:02:28
So I think like anything, it is
1:02:29
also, there's a huge responsibility for a teacher to have control over
1:02:33
what goes into their classroom and feel like they can stand behind that.
1:02:37
Yeah.
1:02:37
Which actually brings us back to that idea of using AI
1:02:40
to plan your lessons and that sort of thing as well. Right?
1:02:42
What are we drawing this from?
1:02:43
And am I asking critical questions about why am I choosing this way and all that?
1:02:47
So boy, what a what a fruitful conversation this has been, David.
1:02:51
I mean, we've gone into so many different aspects here and I think
1:02:55
had a really enjoyable conversation and really thoughtful conversation.
1:02:57
I think for me as an educator, I'm definitely walking away from this inspired
1:03:01
with wanting to make sure I ask myself that question all the time,
1:03:05
why am I doing this thing that I'm doing in my classroom?
1:03:07
And why do I think that's going to be a useful endeavor for young people?
1:03:12
And how am I contributing to them becoming a positive member of society?
1:03:15
And I think if if I were to take anything from all the different things
1:03:18
and I think there's a lot I want to go back and listen to,
1:03:20
but if I were to take anything from this, it would be definitely that.
1:03:22
Just continue to ask your question, why am I doing this thing with students
1:03:26
right now?
1:03:27
Precisely.
1:03:28
And I think, at the risk of of repeating myself, it reminds me
1:03:33
of one part of the conversation we had with our previous, podcast meeting.
1:03:39
The question is, how do you know? Right?
1:03:41
How do you know what you claim to know? You,
1:03:45
using this piece of, technology.
1:03:50
Do you have a way in which
1:03:52
to properly assess,
1:03:55
the effectiveness of it?
1:03:59
When you ask a teacher, why are you doing this?
1:04:03
If the first thing that comes out of their mouth is
1:04:06
because it will help them to get a better grade,
1:04:09
then you clearly know they haven't thought about,
1:04:12
the broader, overarching question of
1:04:16
of why you're doing anything at all in education.
1:04:19
Yeah.
1:04:20
If you're using this piece of edtech or whatever, it might be,
1:04:23
this piece of technology, because it's,
1:04:27
more effective in transmitting,
1:04:30
some piece of knowledge, then you clearly hadn't thought about why you're using it.
1:04:35
Powerful stuff.
1:04:36
David, it's such a pleasure to to speak with you again.
1:04:38
And, thanks so much for taking the time to come back and chat with us once more.
1:04:42
It's really, genuinely a pleasure, for for me and I think for Courtney as well,
1:04:46
just to get a chance to chat with you and and talk about these things as well.
1:04:48
So I really, really appreciate you taking the time. I enjoyed it.
1:04:51
Thank you so much for, inviting me yet again.
1:04:55
I mean, I know that Kognity Unplugged
1:04:58
podcast series, are quite young,
1:05:02
but I'm still really proud of the fact that I'm the only person
1:05:06
to have been invited back.
1:05:07
I don't I don't quite know why.
1:05:10
And I'm sure after today will never happen again.
1:05:13
But I've really enjoyed it.
1:05:14
You forced me to think about,
1:05:17
things that we
1:05:18
don't as educators often think about, right?
1:05:22
We we we're quite unique,
1:05:25
in our profession at being very good, as we said before,
1:05:29
talking about the minutia of what we teach.
1:05:34
But stepping outside of that and thinking about the purpose of education
1:05:39
in wider society is something that we're we're either reluctant to do
1:05:44
or often times not very good at or confident about doing it.
1:05:49
And so you've inspired me today to, to think about that
1:05:53
and to step outside of the confines of my own
1:05:57
subject specialist knowledge.
1:05:59
I hope it's been,
1:06:02
useful and interesting.
1:06:03
And rather than rather than just,
1:06:06
spoon of the globe on the stick, spouting off
1:06:08
a few opinions about things. No, this has been great.
1:06:12
And, yeah, we've invited you back many times.
1:06:14
I've worked with you for seven years, maybe even more now.
1:06:18
And, I don't think you're,
1:06:20
I don't think you're going anywhere, so thank you.
1:06:22
Thanks for joining.
1:06:24
And, yeah, great to talk to you again.
1:06:26
My absolute pleasure.
1:06:27
Thank you so much, Courtney. Thank you, John.
1:06:30
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
1:06:33
and Courtney Marlene and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
1:06:36
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
1:06:40
If you'd like to submit a topic, request or a question, please do so on
1:06:44
kognity.com/ibunplugged.
1:06:46
Let's keep the conversation going
1:06:48
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity and joy.
1:06:52
See you next time.