Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _2403 - Andrew Gallimore(M4A_128K)

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Joe Rogan Experience _2403 - Andrew Gallimore(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Check it out Joe Experience, Train My Day, Joe Rogan
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: podcast by Nay All Day.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: How are you splendid?
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: I think it's the first time anyone's answered splendid when
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: I asked him how you doing?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: So? Tell me about your book, man, let me see
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: the cover of it.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: First of all, death by death by astonishment, which is
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: the famous Terrence mckinnic quote. Right, Yes, you have to
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: fear his death by astonishment exactly. You know, the first
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: time I did d MT, I literally heard his words
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: do not give into astonishment.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I literally heard those words.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: It's almost like whatever's over there and wanted me to
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: hear that so I could like sink in or whatever
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: because I had already heard it before, you know, like
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: so they wanted to say it to me as well.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: It was very word.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's saved your advice, I think, because it's the.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: Only words, because if you freak out, well it's like
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: that's a good thing. It's good advice in most of life,
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: like don't give in to.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: The freak out.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Confronting the mystery of the world Strangers Drug, How
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: did you.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Get involved in us d MT?
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Yes, Oh, so you have to go back to my
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: teenage years really, So, I mean I first heard about
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: DMT through Terrence McKenna, a friend, like most of us, yeah,
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: like most of us, but this was like, this was
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: joined like the dawn of the Internet, right, like before
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: you were a scientist, long before I was a scientist.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: So a friend gave me this magazine who had this
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: interview with this bearded, cheeky looking bearded fellow on the
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: back called Terrence McKenna, and he spoke about this thing
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: called DMT, which, of course I didn't know what that was,
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: but you know, the stories that he was telling that
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: you were going to meet these insectoid aliens and transdimensional
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: machine owls jabbering in an indecipherable tongue and singing impossible
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: objects into existence. I mean it sounded ridiculous, but I
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: was kind of I was hooked. I thought, this is it,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: this is this is the most fucking incredible thing I've
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: ever read in my life. And say I was. I
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: was like fifteen, sixteen years old, and there was one
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: computer in the school that was hooked up to the
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: World Wide Web. So all of that year was ninety six.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: Oh give him my age away here, but early days, Yeah, Yeah,
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: so I spent all my time just you know, going
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: on to Alta Vista. Remember Alta Vista, I do, Yeah.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't remember it until you brought it
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: up there. Yeah.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: I just kind of trying to find out as much
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: as I could about this, and that was what triggered
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: my decision to study chemistry and pharmacology. My kind of
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: academic journey was triggered by I want to know. You know,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: it's such a cool thing, the idea that you can
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: you can put a molecule in your brain and it
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: it doesn't just change how you feel, but it completely
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: changes the entire structure of your reality. Your entire world
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: is obliterated and replaced with one that is completely alien.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: That is a relationship whatsoever to that normal waking. Well,
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: that's incredible and I kind of wanted to try, at
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: least to understand how that actually works.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Well, the weirdest part about that molecules that your brain
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: makes it, and so then you have to go why
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: and what's the purpose of that, and what are we
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: really you know, what is what is consciousness and what
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: is normal consciousness? What's the purpose of it? And why
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: does this chemical exist? What does this molecule exist that's
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: produced by the brain that changes everything and seems to
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: transport you to a place that's more real than this
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: physical reality that we find ourselves in.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: Right now exactly, and that is kind of the great mystery.
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: And I don't I think most people who even people
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: who've kind of learned about DMPT, even scientists. I mean
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: I speak to scientists, I engage with scientists neuroscientists often,
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: and they will say, Oh, this is just hallucination, this
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: is just your brain kind of making it up. And
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: I don't think most scientists realize how confounding and how
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: difficult to explain the DMPT state is. I think it
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: is one of one of life's true mysteries. It is
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: not simple to explain the DMT state.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it's almost irresponsible to try to explain
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: it without experiencing it. It's not going to kill you,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: it's not going to kill you in the last fifteen minutes.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Stop being a pussy, right, Just.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Do it, and then tell me it's just hallucining. That's it.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Just do do a big one, three giant hits, come back,
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Tell me this is normal, Tell me this is just
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: a freak out. Because it sure doesn't seem like it,
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: does it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: No, And I mean that was what I mean. I mean,
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: I first learned about DMT, as I said, when I
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: was fifteen or sixteen, but my first experience was probably
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: well close to a decade later. And I thought, before
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: I took it, I thought I kind of knew what
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: to expect. I mean, I'd listened to all the Terrence
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: McCann a lectures I could find. I'd read all the books,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: I read all the trip reports, and I thought, Okay,
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of ready for this. I kind of know
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: what's going to happen. And I wasn't ready. And I
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: was shocked. I was horrified in a sense. I was appalled.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, this was like, this is impossible. This was
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: an impossible experience. I was confronted with an what seemed
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: to me to be the undeniable hand of some kind
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: of intelligence, and not just any kind of intelligence, but
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: a supremely advanced, ancient and yet highly technological intelligence. And
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: that was undeniable to me. In those first few moments,
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: within sort of thirty seconds of that drug hitting my brain,
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: I knew that this is, this is something else. And
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: I was at first horrified. I was shocked. I just thought, this,
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: what is this? And then when I finally kind of
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: came back, I was I was. I remember lying on
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: my bed on my back, like shaking to my very bones,
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: and all I could say was, oh, my fucking God,
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: because I was completely confounded, you know, I mean, and
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: by then I was a chemical pharmacologist. I was assignedist.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: I should I shouldn't know what's going on here, but
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: I had no idea what was going on, and I thought,
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: this is this is it? This is what I need
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: to get to grips with.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: It also gives you a very like an.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Unusual understanding of the mechanisms that you interface with the world,
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: like of like ego and logic and reasoning and rational thinking.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: It gives you like this understanding that those are kind
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: of just these weird tools that you use to get by,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: and you're left without them in there. It just they
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: they evaporate and dissolve, and then when you come back,
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: you're like, what am I doing? The way I talk? Like,
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: what is my what's my purpose of interacting with people?
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Like? How much of the way I talk to people.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: It's this weird social dance, weird ego performative sort of
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: like the way I structure sentences, the way I communicate
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: it all seems so clunky when when you come back
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: and you just go, wow, we're a mess, Like collectively
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: as a species, we're so without some sort of awakening
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: or some kind of experience, some sort of a psychedelic,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: profound breakthrough experience, like you're so hampered by your physical
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: existence and this sort of ancient tribal programming that we
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: have that we're running through this maze of life with
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: and you come back, you're God, this is so weird.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: I think what DMT does is show you that everything,
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: everything you thought you knew about how reality is structured,
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: and what's what's real and what's not real, what is fantasy,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: what's possible and what's not possible, all of that is
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: is completely kind of extirpated in an instant and you realize, actually,
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: we don't we don't have a fucking clue about the
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: way things really are. I think DMT just demonstrates that
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: whether you understand it, we can, we can really understand
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: what's going on in the brain and why and how
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: this experience is even possible. It just shows you how
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: little we really understand about the nature of reality.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: So you've done some like legitimate studies with d MT.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean I work mainly kind of I
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: guess you could say theoretically in that I do more
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: quantitative and qualitative analysis of the DMT state and try
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: to understand, try to use the tools of neuroscience to
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: try to understand how d MT elicits its effects. So
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: we can kind of get into if you want, if
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: you want to go really deep, I can give you
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: a kind of a neuroscience lesson talk about so you know,
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: if you want to understand DMPT, we kind of have
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: to start with the basic observation. You know, before you
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: take DMT, you are experiencing a world, right whenever you're
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: awake and conscious, you're experiencing a world, the normal waking world.
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: This is the world that's kind of familiar to us.
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: When you take DMT, that world is transformed, it disappears,
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: it's obliterated, and it's replaced with one that is altogether stranger,
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: shall we say. And so what I want to do
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: is kind of understand first of all, how that happens,
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: what's actually going on in the brain to cause that transition,
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: and why that happens. And you can't do that unless
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: you have a decent understanding of the normal waking world.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: So what is the normal waking world. It's a model.
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: It's an interface generated by your brain. So you have
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: this world building machinery on the outer lay of your
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: brain called the cortex, and this is generating your world
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: all the time. All the features of the world that
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: you're experiencing are represented within the cortex. And that applies
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: whether you are just normal waking life, it applies in dreaming,
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: it even applies in the psychedelic state. The world you
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: experience is always constructed as a model by the brain.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: And so what that means is that psychedelics, what they're
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: doing is they're perturbing the brain. They're manipulating the brain
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: and altering that model. Now, for example, with let's say
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: psilocybin from magic mushrooms. Psilocybin binds to this receptor in
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: the brain called the five HD two, a receptor which
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: you probably familiar with cis serotonin receptor, and so this
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: is a it's called an excitatree receptor. It stimulates these
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: neurons of which your cortex is constructed from, makes them
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: more excitable, makes them more likely to fire and share
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: information between to other neurons. You get this kind of
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: loosening up of the world model that your brain is constructing.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: So the walls start to breathe, objects seem to kind
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: of change their identity. Everything becomes more fluid and dynamic,
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: and if you put someone into an MRI machine, for example,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: you can actually see that in the normal waking state,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: you can see the neural activity. It's dynamic, but it's
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: kind of organized and well orchestrated. You give someone psilocybin,
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: let's say, or LSD, and you start to see the
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: activity becoming sort of more random and fluid. So you
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: get this state of slightly increased disorder, as if the
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: kind of the tuning dial between order and disorder in
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: the brain has been slightly nudged towards disorder. But then
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: with DMT, something remarkable happens. In the early stages of
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: the experience. You get this kind of quite chaotic state,
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: suggesting that the brain is entering this more disordered state.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: But then it kind of collapses into this brand new order.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: So you go from the order of the normal waking
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: world to this disordered state, and then you collapse into
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: this completely different type of order. So the brain is
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: effectively constructing an entirely different model of reality. It's no
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: longer the normal, waking world model, which acts as kind
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: of an interface with the environment, but it's constructing a
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: completely different world model.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: When you said constructing, why do you use that term?
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: Why do you use the brain is constructing.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: Because you're well, okay, so if you think about, you know,
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: how does the brain interact with the how do we
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: interact with environment using our senses? Right, So, light information
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: comes through the eyes the retina, and it stimulates the
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: very back of the brain. You have an area.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Oh oh you brought slides.
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: I brought slides.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: There we go.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe the next one, Jamie, is a bit easier
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: to see.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: There we go.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: So at the right of the back of the brain
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: here you have an area called V one, which is
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: the primary visual cortex. That's your interface with the world.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Sensor information comes and strikes. It activates patterns of neural
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: activity in V one. But it's very, very messy. It's
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: like lines and patches of color and you know, lines
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: moving in certain directions. It's a mess, right, It's very noisy,
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: it's very messy, it's incredibly dynamic. It doesn't make any sense.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: And so what your brain does is it has another
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: level above V one that kind of has a bird's
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: eye view, and it's looking for patterns within this neural
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: activity in this lowest level. So it's looking saying, oh,
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: those lines kind of could be a triangle or this
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: be a circle. It's trying to find patterns to try
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: generate order from this messy level of V one.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Can I ask you this, how do we know it
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: does that?
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: That's a good question. Well, there are a number of things.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: So the earliest evidence came from a one of the
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: earliest forms of evidence came from a guy called Wilder Penfield.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: Are you familiar with so Wilder Penfield he was interested
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: in treating epilepsy and he invented something called the Montreal
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: procedure where he would remove a part of the brain
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: that was the focus of epileptiform activity. The idea being
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: that it would kind of cure someone's epilepsy. But before
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: he could do that, of course, he needed to make
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: sure that he wasn't removing, you know, important parts for
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: someone's function. So what he would do is he would
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: cut the top of their skull off when there's still away, yeah,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: and kind of suppose their brain, and then he would
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: zap different parts of their brain and say, you know
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: what's happening. Oh my god, can you imagine?
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Isn't it crazy that that's how we have to find
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: out what works? We have to like it's the aliens
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: probably look at us and go, oh my god, you
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: guys are still doing that.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: Yea, nowadays things have moved on a bit.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Right, Sure, this is not that long ago, right, how
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: long is.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: This nineteen fifties?
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, not.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Even one hundred years years ago. They were literally taking
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: your skull and turning into a hat.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: They were tipping the cap off and just okay, yeah,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: let's see what this does.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Exactly, they would zap it. And what he noticed is
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: that when he would zap right at the back of
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: the brain, so this is this primary visual cortex re
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: seeing information for an environment, they would his patients would say, oh,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: I see flashes of light, I see lines, I see
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: colors with very simple kind of things. But then he
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: would move forward to kind of higher level that we
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: know now are kind of high levels, and then they'd say, oh,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: I see triangles or I see an orange circle things
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: like this, and then you keep going higher and higher,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: and then they'd say, oh, I see people, or I
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: see cops and robbers. And then right at the top
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: you reach an area called the Hippo campus, which you
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: may have heard of involved in memory, and the Hippo
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Campus basically keeps an eye. It's a bird's eye view
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: of the all of this world model your brain is constructing,
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: and it's kind of following and looking for it, you know,
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: interesting or important patterns. And when he stimulated that, his
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: patients would actually report memories. They would say, oh, I
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: hear somebody talking to me. You know, this happened this
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: morning when I was leaving the house. My mother was
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: telling me something about, you know, you've got your coat
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: on backwards or something like this. So you have these
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: levels of the cortex that go from the very simple,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: kind of very fundamental, low level visual data at the
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: bottom end, and then at the very top you've got
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: kind of higher order things such as you know, faces
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: or people. This is sitting at the top. Now, interesting
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: have you ever when you are dreaming?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: So, when let's think about dreaming for a second, it's
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: quite instructive. I think when you're dreaming, right, the brain
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: is actually constructing the world in basically the same way
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: as it does when you're awake. Dreams are kind of
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: selective simulations of the waking world. The difference, of course,
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: is that there's no sensory inputs. So if you scan
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: someone's brain while they're having a dream, you'll see that
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: this back of the brain, this primary visual cortex, is
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: kind of quiet. The brain is kind of using what
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: it's learned about building the world in the normal waking
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: state to construct the dream world. So the dream world
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: is in exactly it's built from exactly the same stuff
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: as the normal waking world. However, this interesting features. If
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: you in a dream, have you ever tried to use
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: your cell phone?
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: No? Not many people have.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: What about read a book in a dream?
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: I don't think so. One thing I have learned to
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: do is to I think I saw it in a movie.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: If you knock on a door, you'll realize that you're
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: in a.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Dream and this waking life.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I don't remember what movie it was, but it was
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: a guy who was instructing how to lose a dream.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: That if you make a habit of walking through a
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: doorway in your home, and every time you walk on
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: through a doorway in your home, tap on the door
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: the doorway, knock on it with your hand and say,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: am I awake? Knock, knock, knock, and then you'll get
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: it in a habit of doing that every time you
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: go through a doorway, and if you go through a
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: doorway in your dream, you'll do it. You'll say, am
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I awake? And then as you go to knock, not
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: you're like, oh shit, I'm dreaming. There we go and
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: then you realize and if you don't give into astonishment,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: you can maintain that dream. That thing, right, that's the
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: thing is like, oh my god, I'm dreaming. I can't
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: believe this, and then you wake up. You get too
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: freaked out and you wake up. But if you don't
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: do it. I've only been able to do this a
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: few times because I don't really knock.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I did it for a while after the movie I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: saw the movie.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: I tried it for a while and I did have
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: a dream like that where I went through a doorway
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: and I said in my dreaming and I'm like, oh
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: my god, I'm dreaming, and then I realized I was dreaming,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: and then.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I was like flying.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I was doing a lot of weird stuff, but then
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: it went away, and then I stopped doing it. And
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: I've always been like, why don't I practice LUCID. I've
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: always I've thought about it like a dozen times at least,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: like why don't I just get a book on lucid
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: dreaming and really try to attempt to learn the techniques?
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: And I never do.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it takes commitment. But now there's actually a simpler
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: way of that kind of reality tests. A simpler way
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: now is to get out your cell phone, occasionally, open
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: up the calculator and do a few calculations and just
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: check everything's working right, or open up a book and
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: try to read it. Because the thing about the dream
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: world is again just like the normal waking world, it's
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: constructed over the kind of levels of a hierarchy from
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: the highest level models. So your brain can construct a
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: high level model of a cell phone quite easily, but
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: all of the fine details of how it functions, that's
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: all represented at the lowest level of the cortex that's
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: really dependent on sensory inputs. So you can dream of
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: having your mobile phone in your hand and doing things
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: with it, but as soon as you try to do
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: something with it through Actually your brain has to kind
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: of construct that function, and it can't do it unless
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: it has access to sensory inputs. And so that's how
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: you can test if you're lucid dreaming. Yeah, which is
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: why the DMT state is so fascinating because it's nothing
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: like the dream state. People say, you know that perhaps
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: DMT has released when you're dreaming, and that it actually
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: triggers I mean, this goes back to the nineteen eighties.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: There's a theoretical paper published by a guy called Jace Callaway,
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: and he said, oh, maybe DMT could be produced during
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: ram sleep because it's closely related to melotonin structurally, both
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: kind of trip to me in structures. But when you
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: analyze the phenomenology, you know the actual experience of DMT,
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: it's nothing like dreaming. Dreaming is generally the brain making
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: use of what it knows about how to construct the
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: world in the waking state and doing so in the
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: dream state. So that's why if you ask people, you
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: know that many studies have done dreaming have shown that
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: people when they dream, they dream about people, They dream
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: about dog and cats, they dream about You know that
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: the amount of time they spend talking on the telephone
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: or watching TV is actually similar to what it is
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: in waking life. So dreaming is more like a selective
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: simulation of the waking world. It's not that difficult to
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: explain because your brain from the moment you were born,
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: your brain was learning to construct the world as a model.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Of the environment.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: This is this world is the only world that your
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: brain knows how to build, or should know how to build.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: And yet when you introduce this molecule dimethyl trip to
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: mean into the brain, the brain suddenly starts constructing a
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: world it never learned to construct. It's like the brain
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: is build speaking a language it never learned to speak,
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: and doing so flawlessly. These worlds are of beautiful crystalline clarity,
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: perfectly finessed staggeringly complex narrative complexity that I think is
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: very difficult to explain. There's no simple explanation of why
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: the brain should, should, should suddenly become capable of constructing
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: these worlds unless and less, and this is where things
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: become more contentious. We are indeed interfacing with some kind
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: of intelligence. That's the explanation that makes sense to me,
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: is that somehow DMT is gating access to some kind
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: of that the flow of information from some kind of
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: intelligent agent that is directing the DMT experience. So it's
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: not a sensed world. It's not a kind of a
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: dreamt world. It's actually a directed world. I always say,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: you don't break through into the DMT world. The DMT
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: world breaks through into you. It's like this intelligent agent
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: has common deered your neural machinery, the world building machinery
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: of your brain, and is directing everything that you see.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: It has leak control.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: It's interesting that you use the word construct rather than observe.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: So you're using you're using terminology that seems to indicate
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: that you believe that you're constructing reality. Yes, not that
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: you're just observing reality.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: No, because it's not. If you think about perception in
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: the same way, like looking like a video camera just
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: taking imagery images of the world, that's not how it works.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: The brain must actively construct a model of the environment.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: That's all what it's always doing. It's always constructing a model,
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: and it is constantly using that model to make predictions
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: about the way that kind of predictions about the evolution
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: of sensory information. It's constantly saying Okay, if this is
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: if this model that I'm currently using is good, and
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: then this should happen next. This is the pattern of
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: sensory information that I should receive next.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So if I, for.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Example, move this bodle of water across your perceptual field,
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: even if you close your eyes, you could probably tell
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: me where the water is going to be in a
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: couple of seconds because it's moving. Your brain has a
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: model of the water and it is using that to
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: make predictions, and it's only when something surprising happens, you know,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: the water. If I do this and your brain detects
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: that there's something, it's predictions start to fail and you
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: get these error signals, And these are what flow into
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: the brain, and the brain uses them to kind of
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: update its model until the errors decline. So you're never
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: you never have direct access to the world or to
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: the environment. Should I say, you only have direct access
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: to this model that your brain is constructing.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: That's where it gets weird, because I'm assuming your model
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: and my model are very similar, right. That would be
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: if we could ever get to a point where we
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: could at least temporarily enter into someone else's consciousness and
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: see how they see the world. I think we're gonna
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: get a lot of answers. We're gonna be like, oh,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: you guys live in a totally different fucking world. No
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: wonder why you think we should be communists and we should.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: Well, it's true, yeah.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: I mean every whatever your chemical makeup, is, your life experience,
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: your biology, whatever contributing factors. I always assume that your
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: construction of the world is the same as my construction
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: of the world. But every now and then I'll get
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: a text message from a friend about some world event
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: and their take is so crazy. Then I just gotta go, Wow,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: this person is living in a completely different world than me.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I mean they are.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: I mean yeah, I mean that their brain, the structure
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: of their brain, the organization of their neural networks, and
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: it's all different in everyone. Everyone has a unique brain,
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: and so in a sense, everyone has to construct an
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: entirely unique model of reality. But we agree on certain things.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: We reach this kind of consensus about what we call things.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: But we you know, if I point at you know
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: something that dilevision. Yeah, I can say that, oh this,
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: I can describe the colors, I can describe the people.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: But again, we're all using our own personally constructed model,
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: and that's what we experience.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Well, that's what's weird, you know, because we again, it's
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: just this assumption. So your take is that when you're dreaming,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: you're trying to construct this world, and that you don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: really have the tools to leave a book where you
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: can read. You don't have a tools to use a calculator.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: You just know what a calculator is, and so if
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: you're in the absence of an actual calculator, your brain's
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: not capable of creating one.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: So again, you have the highest level, you have a
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: calculator model, which is kind of a broad idea of
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: a calculator, doesn't have all the details. All the details
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: are at the lower end. Actually, we can show this, Sorry, Jamie,
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: can I use Jamie like this?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Suretime?
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Can you go to the picture of Margaret Thatcher.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I was going to bring this up in somewhere. I
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: think it's supposed to play a video.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: Maybe not yet.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Well, the videos don't seem to be playing in the keynote.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: There's three or four of them, and none of them play.
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: Oh really, Yeah, I figured you're going to get here
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: at some point. Okay, I don't know how.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: To just is it formatted for windows?
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: No, okay, I don't know that's gonna happen. Okay, yeah, perfect, Okay,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: so go back one. Okay, this is kind of really interesting, right,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: you've seen this.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: This is really not with Margaret Thatcher, but I've seen
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it with face.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so the original was with Margaret Thatcher.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: Alright, it's explaining to people that are just listening because
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: there's still people.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: So this is called the Thatcher effect. So when you're
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: looking at this image of Margaret Thatcher or anyone, your
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: brain is constructing a model of this person, right, a
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: model of their their face. And as I said, it's
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: constructed over a hierarchy. So you have the overall idea,
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: the overall concept of Margaret Thatcher, right, the whole face,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: the whole thing, and then you have a lower level
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: you have the eyes and the mouth and the nose
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: and they're kind of separate. And then going further still,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: within the eyes, you've got circles and patches of color
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: and all this stuff. And right at the bottom you
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: have this really messy system of lines and things that
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: don't make any sense, right, And you can actually show
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: how this hierarchy is constructed at the moment, it just
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: looks like Margaret Thatcher and you can't really break it down.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: But if you flip over like this, so just leave
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: it there for a second, GENI please.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: So now you see what we've done is we've basically
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: we've weakened this highest level model right of the whole face,
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: because the brain isn't very good at building models of
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: faces that are upside down, right, okay, and so this
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: looks there's something with the image, clearly.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: But it looks like Margaret Thatcher.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: It looks like Margaret Thatcher. But it's actually what's happened
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: is the whole face has been flipped over, but the
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: mouth and the eyes are actually the correct way up right.
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: But to the brain in this configuration, it's not that
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: surprising because the eyes kind of look as they should,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: the mouth looks as it should. You're seeing the whole
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: image in its pieces, if you like, you're seeing that
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: lower level fragments, and it's only when you flip.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: It that it becomes horrific.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: Horrific, right, So now you've re established that high level
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: model of Margaret Thatcher and the brain goes, fuck, this
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: is completely wrong. And this is why you get that
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: it's immediately obvious.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: With the upside down eyes and the upside down mouth,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: it looks completely insane.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: She looks like a demon.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: She looks like a demon, right, which is really weird.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: It's really weird. It's called the Thatcher effect.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Was she the original person that they use this exactly?
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: That came up with this.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Oh good quest?
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: But this is fairly old now, I think at least
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: a couple of decades old.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: It's so funny that they figured that out. It's a
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: great insight into how the mind works because the upside
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: down Thatcher with the upside down with the correct eyeballs
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: and mouth. The second one, Jamie, that does not look
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: crazy at all. That's what's so weird about the third image,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: because the third image really looks psychotic, like if it
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: was a monster movie, yeah, and then someone got bitten
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: by a zombie, and then that was what they looked like,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and then they came running after you'd be.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Like, oh fuck, she got bit Yeah, exactly.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Her mouth is upside because that's what it looks like weird,
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: like for people listening, the big teeth you're above, teeth,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: they're they're below, and the little tiny teeth are above
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: and the eyeballs are the eyelids the top part or
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: on the bottom, and it really looks like a monster. Yeah,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: And it's weird that it looks like a monster because
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: it looks so damn normal upside down.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, weird.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: So yeah, it's just it's it's it's revealing this hierarchic
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: structure of this world model that your brain is always constructing.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: That's a good way to describe why it's constructing rather
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: than observing. Right, that's clearly an example of your constructing normalcy.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: And that upside down face, it's not normal at all,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: not normal at all.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, okay, so do we know what's going on
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: when you're dreaming? Is it potentially is there a release
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: of dmt? Because DMT is exoginately, it's produced in the brain,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: it's produced in the liver and the lungs, right, it's
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: produced a lot of other areas. So we know the
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: body makes it, right, and we also know that melatonin
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: plays a role, and there's a lot of other things
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: going on. Is it possible that DMT is one of
• 33:47
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• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Well, so, I think the problem is, as I said,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: is that yes, it's possible biochemically. Now, the pineal gland
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: is what people often refer to, right because the pineal
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: gland has this long history and mystical traditions, the seat
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: of the soul, the third eye, all this kind of stuff.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: So everyone wants DMT to produce to be produced by
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: the pineal gland. The problem is is, first of all,
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: is that the pineal gland is very small. It's about
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: the size of the end of my pinky. And it's
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: design mind or evolve to produce nanograms micrograms of melatonin,
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: very small amounts you need. So the idea that this
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: gland can suddenly start pumping out milligrams of DMT to
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: achieve a kind of psychedelic state in the dream state
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: is quite an ask. There have been some studies, or
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: one study in particular, actually looked at DMT levels. So
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: we've known since the nineteen fifties that DMT is produced
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: by is are products of mammalian physiology, and it's produced
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: by humans. In those days, they try to kind of
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: pin schizophrenia on DMT. The idea that if there was
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: some fault, some problem with trip to meine metabolism, instead
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: of producing serotonin, which is five hydroxy trip to meine,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: the brain could instead start producing elevated levels of an
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: n dimethyl trip to mean or DMT. And so they
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: started looking looking for differences in d MT levels in
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: psychotic patients, schizophrenic patients versus normal people. And there've been
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: more than one hundred studies that have looked at levels
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: of d MT and in the blood, in urine, in
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: cerebrospinal fluid. But there's there's no convincing, consistent evidence that
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: suggests that DMT is the cause of psychosis or dreaming
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: in fact.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: In darkness production. Yeah, what what are the what's the mechanism, like,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: what is producing it?
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: Okay, So it's actually produced from trip to fan. So
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: DMT is an alkaloid, and alkaloids are all produced from
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: amino acids. So trip to fan is first converted to
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: trip to mean. This is called decarboxylation. You remove a
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: carbon dioxide molecule and you've got trip to mean. Now Here,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: you can go in a number of different directions. You
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: can go to serotonin, which is five hydroxy took to mean,
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: or you can go to DMT. You to simply add
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: to methyl groups to carbon atoms.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: And so what is adding these things?
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: So there's an enzyme called indole ethylomine and methyl transferration
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: or i n MT for short. This is the key
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: enzyme for DMT production. It adds these two groups, these
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: methyl groups to trip. Tomine is produced from trip to
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: fan to produce DMT.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: And trip to fin is produced from.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: So it's trip to fan is one of the essential
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: amino acids. So it's it is something you consume.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Do you do?
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: People take trip to fan as a dietary supplement in
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: order to increase the potency of their experiences.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Some people do. I don't think it would have an
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: appreciable effect. People take trip to fan for for lots
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: of reasons.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: So this process.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: What makes you think that this is a size dependent process,
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: because just because this gland sort of tiny, why can't
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: it do it?
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well, there's a number of things. First of all,
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: it's just there's orders of magnitude. I mean, a gland
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: that is designed to produce nanograms or micrograms of something.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: To ask it to produce a thousand times more of
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: an entirely different molecule is quite an ask. However, that's
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: not the only reason that There's actually been a study
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: recently in the last I think three or four years
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: that looked at DMT levels in rat brains in real time.
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: They're not in humans, but in rat brains. They actually
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: have a technique now called microdialysis where they can basically
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: measure in a wake an awake, moving, you know, normally
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: behaving rat, they can measure the levels of DMT in
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: its brain. And what they found was that the levels
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: of DMT first of all were surprisingly high, so similar
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: levels to things like serotonin and dopamine, but all unusual,
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: which is yes, which makes you think that it must
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: have some kind of function. But importantly they also in
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: some rats they remove the pineal gland. They kind of
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: cut it out and found that it didn't affect so
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: we don't need the pinil. In other words, all brain cells,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: all neurons, can probably produce DMT, The lungs can almost
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: certainly produce DMT.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Why do you think that the pineal glan had this
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: role in incitant mysticism? Well, why did they have this
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: appreciation of it as being this very sacred organ that
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: I mean it's I mean it's the eye of Horus, right, right,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: I mean it certainly looks like it. It looks like
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: the eye of Horrus. Looks exactly like a cross section
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: of the pineal glan.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it sits right in the center of
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: the brain as well, right, so it and it looks
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: it's kind of unusual, as you say, it looks like
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: tiny pine.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Like how did they where did they come up? It's
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: whenever this it's very easy to just miss like ancient
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: mysticism and ancient ideas of what things are sacred about,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: you know, the human body and what what areas of
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: the mind are producing these the third eye like that's
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: how it was always described.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: But I don't want to. It's too weird.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: So I go, wait a minute before you dismissed, because
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: it's fun to dismiss things like that they didn't know anything,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: Like how do we know that they weren't onto something
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: like maybe there is a role that that plays in
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: not normal d MT production, but in the big dump
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: that you get before you die, right and you have
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: a near death experience, maybe that has to be Maybe
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: that's the kill switch. Maybe that's the big dump switch,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: you know what.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, like before So if you think.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: About it's the seat of the soul, right, if that
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: is where the soul is like connected, that's where the
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: soul is like anchored into this physical reaction. And if
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: you're gonna die you have a near death experience, something
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: has got to go. All right, boys, this is not
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: a drill.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Let it go.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: And then that's what a lot of people think is
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: happy when people have near death experiences. There's a lot
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: of very bizarre aspects of it, but one of them
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: is the uniformity of their experiences. There's a lot of
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: very similar experiences, very similar you know, you have with anything,
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: you have variables that people may or may not be
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: adding onto their own, because people love to tell a
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: good tale, you know, and why miss out on a
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: chance when you've had a near death experience that was profound.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe add a little.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: To it make it a little bit more exciting, but
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: the overall kind of framework of the experience is very similar,
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: and I often wonder, like, what is that. Like I
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: have a friend who was in a car accident and
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: had a near death experience and said that when they
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: came back, they had no fear, like for that moment
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: when they go fear now, no fear at all about dying,
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: no fear at all about life, and that this was
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: this very weird, transformative journey where they went to another
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: place and then they returned, but.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: It was very real.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: It felt very to the point where all their anxiety,
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: even about the car accident, being knocked unconscious and all
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: that stuff all went away.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: I think the near death experience connection to DMT is
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: is very interesting because Rick Strasman, of course, in the nineties,
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: when he wrote DMT The Spirit Molecule, he hypothesized that
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: in fact, at the point of death, DMT is released
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: by the opinial and it kind of acts as the
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: conduit by which the soul exits the body and enters
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: the afterlife. And of course that was you know, largely speculation.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: It was just a hypothesis. But in recent years there's
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: been some really fascinating work showing that DMT t actually
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: if you take some neurons, a culture of neurons, for example,
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: brain cells, which are very sensitive to oxygen levels. So
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: if you deprive neurons of oxygen, they die very quickly.
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: This is why strokes can be so rapidly devastating. If
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: the brain becomes deprived of blood and oxygen, then the
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: brain cells start to die, but in the presence of
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: DMT they live a lot longer, so they kind of
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: protecting the brain against hypoxia. Now, when does the brain
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: enter a hypoxic state during the dying process, right, this
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: is when as your cardiovascular system starts to collapse, your
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: respiratory system collapses, the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. And
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: this is precisely the time when you want the brain
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: to be flooded with DMT just in case you come
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: back to protect the brain from the lack of oxygen.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: So that suggests a clear and obvious link. And if
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: you kill Actually, again I was referring to this microdialysis experiment.
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: If you kill a rat whilst measuring d MT levels,
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: as the rat dies, the DNT level spike, So it
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: suggests that the rat is also maybe having an actual
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: death experience.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: They come back as a person. Yeah, but it.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: Does suggest, right, it does suggest that there is maybe
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: some link there. But what it doesn't explain, of course,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: is why you would need, why this molecule would be,
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: why this molecule would be so profoundly visionary. That's still
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: kind of a mystery. You know, are you being kind
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: of given access to wherever you go after death?
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Is it a vision of what happens to you later on?
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: That's but the question to me, my question rather is
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: not it's are we sure it's a vision? Or is
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: it a gateway? Or is it are you going into
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: a non physical space that has its own laws that
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: it's very different, but it is a reality, and it's
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: not that it's a vision. That not that it's a
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: hallucination or a visionary representation, or that you're even constructing
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: this reality. But you're entering into a completely different dimension
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: that has laws that are very different than the dimension
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: that we find ourselves in right now.
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: Okay, So what I think is that I don't think
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: with DMT that you're going anywhere as such. I think,
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: you know, as I said, the world your experience is
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: always represented in the brain, and that must apply. I
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: think in the DMT state, if you're experiencing an altered world,
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: there must be some representation of that within your cortical machinery,
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: within your cortex, within your brain. I think that has
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: to be the case. However, I don't think, and I
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: think it's a great mystery is how the brain is
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: actually capable of constructing that on its own in the
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: same way that the brain constructs the dream world, because
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: the brain knows how to construct the waking world, so
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: it's simply using its stored models. The same with hallucinations.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: If you look at case reports of hallucinations in psychotics,
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: you go through the psychiatric literature, the vast majority of
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: hallucinations are normal appearing, normal sized people, normal animals. That
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: it's like waking dreams, if you like. But with the
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: MT it's not. The brain is somehow constructing a world
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: that has no relationship whatsoever. Nothing is taken from the
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: normal waking world. It's like the brain is suddenly has
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: switched to speaking a language that it never learned. And
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: I think that suggests that actually what's happening is you're
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: not going somewhere, but you are in this more kind
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: of fluid and dynamic state that psychedelics induce. You're kind
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: of you're making the brain much more sensitive to being
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: common de it. I think it's a I think what
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: you're seeing is what this intelligent agent as I recall
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: as I tend to call it. I don't call it
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: spirits or aliens or anything like that. I think there's
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: some It's clear to me that there's some kind of intelligence,
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: and that intelligence is interacting with our brain in some
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: way and showing us kind of what it wants us
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: to see, if you like?
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: Does that assume that consciousness resides in the brain though,
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: or is I mean, when you take into account the
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: possibility of consciousness being something that the brain tunes into
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: and that it forms its own version of reality based
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: on its biology, is life experiences, et cetera, et cetera,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: but that it is just a radio and it is
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: just forming its version of consciousness, but that it is
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: actually tuning into consciousness, and that consciousness is sort of
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: a universal thing that exists not just in people, but
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: maybe in other life forms as well, certainly animals and
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: maybe plants. So one of the weirder things about people
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: who trip, I'm sure you know this is the experience
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: communication from plants, like tree hugging becomes a real thing. Yeah,
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: Like tree hugging is a very different thing.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, you're alive alone, you know.
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: And we know that trees and plants in general, especially
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: house plants, when people interact with them, they grow better.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: They're healthier plants, Like you can prove it. It's interesting,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: play music for them, communicate with them, say nice things.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: We also know that plants in like abusive households or
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: people are alcoholics and cigarettes, they're gonna do terrible.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: I think that as soon as I start talking about
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: First of all, I think consciousness is absolutely fundamental. I
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: don't think that the brain generates conscious and I think
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: consciousness is in some way the only thing that really exists,
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: you know. I think that it's the funn It's the
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: absolute ultimate reality, is consciousness itself.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Do you think everything is conscious?
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: I think everything is consciousness.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Everything is consciousness.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, do you think that there's a state that
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: maybe inanimate objects achieve that is very different than our
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: interpretation of consciousness, but yet they're still conscious, I think.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: In which is why. Because I say this, because Jamie
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: has O. J.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: Simpson's golf clubs, I feel like they have some consciousness
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: attached to them.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean it's probably bad, right, it doesn't
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: exist in the nineties. They're like only ten years old.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: That's bad. Voodoo bro, Yeah, you got to watch out.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: I think you know, what do we mean by when
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: something's conscious? In Buddhism they have this idea of things
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: that exist from their own side, which I really like.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: From their own side?
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: Yes, so you exist from your own side in other words, presumably,
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: and I can never prove it. There is someone a
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: subjective perspective there that's actually model, you know, that's experienced
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: in me and I'm and Jamie as well. Everyone has
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: is like a perspective. You know, I exist from my
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: own side. Whereas does this skull exists from its own side?
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: Is does it have its own unique perspective? I would
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: say probably not, but I don't know. And consciousness is
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: kind of like the interaction, you know, reality kind of
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: emerges by the interaction of all of these perspective, these
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: conscious agents, if you like, everyone, all these points of
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: subjective perspective. I think that's probably closer to what ultimate
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: reality is. But I think it's very difficult. You know,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: I'm a neuroscientist, so I focus on not consciousness per se,
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: but on what I can get my teeth into. I
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: can get my teeth into the content, into the structure,
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: the actual meat and potatoes, right, I've never used that
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: phrase before.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: The meat.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the meat and potatoes of the DMPT experience things
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: that I can talk about and analyze. That's you know.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: What I'm trying to do, I think is I'm not
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: trying to tell people what I think DMPT is. I'm
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: just trying to convince them that it's not what they
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: think it is, that it's not just hallucination, that it's
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: not these are not dreams, that kind of thing.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: I really feel like to be talking about the subjects,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: you should experience it. Like I said, I think it's
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: so silly that there's very serious people that are academics,
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: that are brilliant people that are dancing around what this
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: thing is without.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Doing it right.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: I've never met anybody who's done it, who comes back
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: and goes, eh.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's impossible to be a big deal. Was
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: interacting with a guy on Twitter and x who referred
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: to enterity encounters as illusory social events, which to me
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: was just the most absurd watered down. This guy obviously
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: never encountered a fucking d MT entity, or you wouldn't,
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: but the idea that this is just an illusory social
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: event just seemed to me absurd. And he had any experienced,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: I very much doubt, and he's someone at neuroscientists.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: Sometimes people have slow dose experiences, like I had talked
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: to a friend once that had a very like how
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: many hitsage you take?
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: Like one? I'm like, oh yeah, you need two more,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: you need more take the third hit.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you missed the gate. You didn't hit the gate.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: You're on the outside going this place is kind of weird. Yeah,
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: but if you go through, it's a lot weirder than
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: you think.
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: It's a lot weirder than you think. Yeah, I think
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: it's a lot weirder than Terrence mckner. Would you say,
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: you know, stranger than you can suppose?
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: Suppose he had a really amazing video that I think
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: I posted on my Instagram of McKenna like in the
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: nineteen nineties. I believe it was talking about the upcoming
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: decades and what's going to happen in terms of how
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: weird the world is going to be with technological innovation
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: and what we're going to be seeing artificial intelligence, alien contact.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, he basically nailed it. I mean fucking nailed it.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: He nailed it to a t. I think he might
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: have predicted time travel. But here's the thing.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: If they are capable of time travel, when are you
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: going to find out about it? When are they going
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: to If if let's say DARPA is working on some
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: defense project and part of it involves, like you know,
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: one way to stop a war would be literally to
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: go back in time five minutes and kill.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Everybody who was about to start the war.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, Or stop a bomb from being switched on.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: You literally go back in time to stop the bomb,
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: stop the missiles from launching. Would when would we learn
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: about that? When would First of all, it's very highly
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: unlikely that it exists outside of the quantum stage right now, right,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: I get it. But if it did, if we were
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: talking about one hundred years from now or two hundred
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: would we know, we would not. Yes, this is it,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: This is it, This is amazing. I love this first
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: of all.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It's love. His voice had a guy, the best voice.
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: And is going to rise excruciatingly, even beyond the excruciating
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: present levels of contradiction. So I think it's just going
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: to get weirder and weirder and weirder, and finally it's
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: going to be so weird that people are going to
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: have to talk about how weird it is. And at
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: that point, novelty theory can come out of the woods,
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: because eventually people are going to say, what the hell
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: is going on? It's just two nuts. It's not enough
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: to say it's nuts. You have to explain why it's
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: so nuts. I look for the invention of artificial life,
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: the cloning of human beings, such a possible contact with
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: extraterrestrially possible human immortality, and at the same time appalling
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: acts of brutality, genocide, race bating, homophobia, famine, starvation, because
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: the systems which are in place to keep the world
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: saying are in utterly inadequate to the forces that have
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: been unleashed. The collapse of the socialist world, the rise
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: of the Internet. These are changes so immense nobody could
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: imagine them ever happening, and now that they have happened,
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: nobody even bothers to mention what a big deal it is.
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: The mushroom said to me once, it said, this is
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: what it's like when a species prepares to depart for
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: the stars. You don't depart for the stars under calm
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: and orderly conditions. It's a fire in a mad house.
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: And that's what we have, the fire in the mad
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: house at the end of time. This is what it's
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: like when a species prepares to move on to the
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: next dimension. The entire destiny of all life on the
• 56:31
  Speaker 5: planet is tied up in this. We are not acting
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: for ourselves or from ourselves. We happen to be the
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: point species on a transformation that will affect every living
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: organism on this planet at its conclusion.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Neil, I think that's exactly what's going on right now.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: The only thing that he didn't quite get is the
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: artificial intelligence aspect. How much of a factor. But I mean,
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: how could you predict all that in nineteen ninety eight.
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: I think with you know, we live in a very
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: thin slip. If you look at the development of an
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: intelligent civilization. Right over one hundreds of thousands of years.
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: We live in this thin sliver, this kind of technological phase.
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: And once you enter that phase that we're in now
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: you know, the computer aide, the information age or whatever
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: it is, you're probably only a few hundred years away
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: from departing for the stars or something like this, of
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: complete or even completely transcending our biology. And this isn't
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: a crazy idea anymore. Many sensible astrobiologists and other intelligence
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: theorists think, yes, probably what's going to happen in the
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: next few hundred years is that we will become post biological.
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: And so if you think about the universe more broadly,
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: if we're looking for aliens quote unquote aliens as being
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: kind of wet brained, wet body biological beings, we're probably
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: only looking for a tiny fraction of the intelligence in
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: the cosmos, and the vast majority of intelligence in the
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: cosmos is likely to be post biological, to have completely
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: dispensed with the biological form. Now, what's interesting about that, Jamie, Sorry,
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: there's an have you heard it? You've heard of the
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: Kardaschef scale.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't think so.
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: So the Cardachef scale was generated by a guy called Kardaschef,
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: and he was Soviet guy, and he kind of hy
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: theorized of as intelligences progress and develop, they go through
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: a number of phases, so you have a type zero.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: You've got it right.
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: So we're kind of a type zero level one on
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: the Cardachef scale in level two, so we're level zero.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: So level one would be when we, for example, are
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: able to harness all of the energy from our neighboring star.
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: Then the next level when we can harness all the
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: energy from the galaxy, et cetera. So it's an expansionist
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: way of thinking about it, the idea of climbing the
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Kardaschef scale. See Yeah, But in the nineteen nineties a
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: British cosmologist called John Barrow, he said, actually, if you
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: actually look at how an intelligent civilization such as ourselves,
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: the only one we know, we actually spend a lot
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: more time going not too larger and larger scales, but
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: smaller and smaller scales. Right, we go down to you know,
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: doing chemistry the large hadron collider. We're looking at the
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: structure of atoms, and then that the structure of sub
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: atomic particles and that kind of thing. We're actually spending
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: more time and more energy and more money going deeper
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: and deeper. Now, the reason that's significant is because if
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: you take the the human sits in the middle. If
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: you take the scale of a human and then you
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: compare the scale of a human to the scale that
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: save a hydrogen atom, and then you compare it to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: the scale of the observable observable universe. Humans sit almost
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: exactly in the middle of that scale from the hydrogen
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: atom to the observable universe. But below the hydrogen atom
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: there is probably one hundred million to a billion times
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: more scale deeper and deeper down. Richard Feynman, the Nobel
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: you know, the legendary physicist, always used to say, there's
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: there's plenty of room at the bottom. There's much more
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: room at the bottom. In other words, as an intelligent species,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: an intelligent civilization progresses, they're not likely to kind of
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: become spacefaring as such, you know, and kind of exploring
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: the cosmos. They're much more likely to go deep down
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: and kind of instant instantiate themselves at the lowest levels
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: of reality. That's where all the spaces, it's not out there.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: Surprisingly all the space is downwards now once an intelligence
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: achieves that, and you have to imagine that probably there
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: are probably billions of these civilizations that had already achieved
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: this before we even popped in to exist, that before we,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: you know, evolved as a species, they would effectively disappear.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: They would become effectively part of the fabric of space
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: time itself, exploiting the fundamental computational structure of the lowest
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: level of reality basically, and that's where they reside. And
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: there are probably far far more, probably millions or billions
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: more of those types of civilizations. Then there are ones
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: like I say, you and me like us as humans, right,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: And so then you ask, well, if that's the case,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: you know, if we're interested in contacting so quote unquote extraterrestrials,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: why are we focused on this tiny sub population of
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: beings that are likely to be you know, floating around
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: in metallic discs or whatever. We should in fact be
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: focusing on the much more abundant ones that are perhaps
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: at the deepest levels of reality. And how would we
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: do that? How would an intelligence that has completely transcended
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: its biology and even completely transcended its physical form entirely.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: How would such an intelligence communicate with us. It would
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: do it through our brain. That's the most obvious thing,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: because the brain is how we interact with the environment.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: It's how we interact, it's the interface by which we
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: interact with what there is. And I think DMT. I'm
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: not saying that these dmpt entities are necessarily these post
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: biological beings, but it's not out of the question. I'm
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: not staying too far from fairly standard now modern scientific
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: discourse when I say that it's perfectly possible that there
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: are very large numbers of these supremely intelligent civilizations that
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: are everywhere and nowhere, and that we can somehow interact
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: with using our brain, and that DMT generates this kind
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: of highly susceptible, highly sensitive neurological state that allows us
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: to interact with them. This is why perhaps when you
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: go into the DMT space, it's immediately obvious, it's undeniable,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: undeniably apparent, that you are interacting with some kind of
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: supremely advanced intelligence. Could that be some intelligence that has
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: existed long before we arrived on the scene, and that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: we're now kind of discovering this technology? And I consider
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: to be some kind of technology that we have discovered
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: that we are now learning to use to interrup act
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: with these intelligent agents that perhaps have been here for forever.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: In human terms, it's.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: An interesting term, the term go there, you know, because
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: that's what it feels like. It feels like you're you're
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: traveling somewhere, like you're going somewhere, but the reality is
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: that place you're going is probably right here. Yes, that's
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: where it gets weird because it's around you all the time.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: You just don't have the ability to tune into it
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: all the time because you wouldn't be able to function
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: if you.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: Did, exactly. And these beings they probably don't even have
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: a true form that you could represent visually. Right, So
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: when you see an insectoid, alien or a machine, now,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: if you're probably not seeing almost.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Have you.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: I've seen I don't know if I've seen the the
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: archetypal kind of McKenna and menna, but I've seen certainly
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: a multitude of beings very very it's kind of screechy, squeaky, jabbering, jabbering.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: You know what I saw once A bunch of jokers
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: giving me the finger. Ah, they all giving me the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: finger and they're going fuck you. And they were jokers
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: with like little tassels on the bells in the end
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: of it, right, And it made me very aware that
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: I was taking myself too seriously and they were like, yep,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: and they said it to me and they pointed their finger.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I was like, you're right, yeah.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: It's interesting. Actually reminded me of something. There's this weird
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: effect that people who use DMT a lot they get this.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: You know, they might use DMT regularly and one day
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: they take a hit as they normally do with the
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: same batch of DMT, and they get a joker or
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: a jester and it wags its finger and says, not
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: today too much, yep exactly, and it shuts off. A
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: guy wrote to me and says that he saw a
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: jester as he often does, and it fucking punched him
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: in the face and he felt it well, and it
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: knocks him back into this world, and so the effect
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: was gone instantaneously. Now that is not easy to explain
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: because this is not tolerance. DMT, first of all, doesn't
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: exhibit subjective tolerance unlike the other psychedelics. It's kind of weird.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: You can inject someone with DMT every thirty minutes perpetually,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: and they will the intensity of their experience will always
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: be the same. It's not tolerance, and tolerance anyway, is
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: a gradual thing. It increases gradually over time, so it's
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: not an off switch. I was speaking to someone. We're
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: probably going to talk about DMTX later, which is kind
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: of my thing. But she was undergoing DMT X, which
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: is this infusion where they keep the brain level of
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: DMT constant, and.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: She would tease to the big build up.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: Yes, there we go, yeah, And she was in the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: DMT space interacting. The infusion machine was running, pumping her
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: brain with DMT at constant rate, keeping the DMT levels
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: in a brain constant as she is interacting with these entities.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: And then at some point after maybe you know, thirty
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: minutes or whatever, when the machine was still running, they
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: said to her or impressed upon her, they said, okay,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: we're done. We're done today, and the visions stopped. Whoa,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: but the machine, the brain was still being pumped with
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: the MPT and yet the visions stopped. So what that
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: suggests to me is that they do Indeed, as I
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: said before, they have control. They are directing the information
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: into the brain, and people, you know, describe things like downloads.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: In Graham Hancock actually, in his book Supernatural, in his
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: first DMPT experience, he described this this download of highly complex,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: entirely non human information into his brains if he locked
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: in to some kind of advanced computational processor that was
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: beaming information into his brain. And many people described that
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: as like a download of of of complex mathematical structures
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: and strange geometries, entirely entirely non human stuff, as if
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: there's kind of not that they expect you to understand it,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: but as if to say, you know, we know a
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: lot more about reality than you do. We know a
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: lot and you don't know anything. And that's the message
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: they're kind of trying to impress upon you by directing it.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: And they can control it. They can, they can shut
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: it off if they so decide. Hmmm, they well, you've
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: picked up under day.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Whatever it is, whatever it is.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this idea that we all evolve along a similar
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: pathway is strange to me. That the concept is we
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: assume that intelligent life everywhere else evolves along similar pathways
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: and that most of them eventually become some sort of
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: a biological digital hybrid if not completely digital, and then
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: most of them probably figure out how to harness the
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: power of the star and the sounds.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: But one of.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: The weird thing about us is that not just that
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: we're evolving and that we have evolved, but yet we
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: have this, but that rather we have this insatiable desire
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: for technological innovation, technological innovation and to make things better.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: We're constantly improving upon everything we make. We're making better
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: versions of every computer or every phone every year, even
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: though it's not really necessary for most people, you're always
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: buying them. It's a very strange desire that we have
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: that I think sinks handing glove to materialism, because materialism
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: is also so stupid for an intelligent life form that
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: has a finite lifespan to not be aware that collecting
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: things does you know good, because you're gonna die, like
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: but yet you want to collect things more than anything,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: and you want to show people the things you've collected. Well,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: what better way to facilitate innovation and growth than to
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: have a built in instinct for purchasing better things all
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: the time and possessing better things all the time, which
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: will force people to work literally into the grave in
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: order to get these things done.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's psychotic.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah it is, But that's just us. It doesn't have
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: to be like that. If you think about the hundreds
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: of billions of stars just in this galaxy, the hundreds
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: of billions of galaxies in the known universe, that the
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: endless possibilities of when intelligent life emerged, if in fact,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: it did emerge anywhere. I have no evidence in emerge
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: anywhere else but here. Right, we're just guessing, we assume.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: But if we were right, like, it could have taken
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: infinite number of forms, it could have evolved completely non physical. Yeah,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: intelligent life that's completely non physical. That's not it's not
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: contained to a cellular structure and bones and organs, that
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: it's plasma based, That it's some sort of an intelligence
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: that communicates with some sort of a universal language.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: We don't.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: We're just guessing that everything's a monkey. We're just guessing
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: everything's a curious monkey that keeps making a better spaceship.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: But that might it be true. Which by the way,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: I went to the SpaceX. Jamie and I both did,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: how dope, pretty dope. We went to see the SpaceX launch. Uh,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: we were how far do you think we were? Were
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: we half a mile?
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: Quarter of a mile? What do you think? I call
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: it a mile? A mile and a half maybe, Oh,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: you think a more than a mile? Yeah? Really?
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, so let's say we're a mile away. Let's just guess, well,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: it's this, throw it in perplexity, Throw it in perplexity,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: ask our sponsor perplexity. How far is the distance between
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: star Base and the SpaceX rocket, Between the star Base
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: and the SpaceX Yeah, launch pad.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: In Texas specific.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because there's one in Florida as well. So they
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: have their own town down there. It's like a legit town.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: It's like a military town, like they took over a place,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: like a military installation. These little tiny houses, fucking security everywhere.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: There's so many cyber trucks. If you have a cyber truck,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: you're fucked.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: You. You have no idea. You better remember your pardect
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: about that shit. Everybody has a goddamn cyber truck. Estimated
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: at less than one mile, let's see.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, main entrance star Base of the actual launch
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: pan infrastructure is estimated less than one mile. Public viewing
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: sites Okay, there's public viewing sites, but we were there.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: We were at Starbase, we were in at like a
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: public viewing site. We were at the actual rocket factory.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: And when that thing takes off, you feel it in
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: your chest.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: It's nuts.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: So it's roughly a mile away and you have to
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: wear ear plugs. It's a mile away and you gotta
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: wear ear plugs and you feel it in your chest.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: And Elon's son was like, I want to go home.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: There was a video. There's a video that I put
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: and you can hear them in the background. It's so
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: funny because my wife was like, where the baby's okay?
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: Because women that have children like they that's immediately what
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: they go do not Wow, that rocket's really cool.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, the baby's okay, because you can hear
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: them going, I want to go, I want to go.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: He was like, I want to get out of here
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: because it's that freaky.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: The power of it is just so nuts that you
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: feel and then you see it and you realize, like god,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: how many people have seen a rocket launch? Like how
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: crazy this thing's going into space? And then I went
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: upstairs and I got to sit in the command console
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: or whatever you would call it the command center, and
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: I get with me and Elon and all the engineers.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: We get to watch it land in Australia thirty five
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: minutes later. So we went five minutes yes from Yes,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: from Texas, Texas to Australia. It's crazy. And we're watching
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: all these cameras in real time that are all connected
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: to Starlink satellites, so there's dozens of cameras. So you're
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: watching this, says oh, two miles straight across. Okay, it
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: seems so close. It seemed really close. Okay, two even crazier,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: So two miles away and you feel it in your chest.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: It's nuts. I mean it's really nuts.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: It's uh.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: The power that it has is so nuts. But it's
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: so old school, right, It's just the most modern version
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: of like a V eight muscle car.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: It's crazy, right. If you think, like one hundred years
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 4: ago at the end of the beginning of the twentieth century,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: how different we would be in one hundred years as
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: we are now. It's unfathomable. When you compare the rest
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: of human history. It's like an exponential thing. You know,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: we've gradually been developing and technologically improving, and then we
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: hit some point in the last century where we reach
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 4: this kind of technological computer information or age, and everything
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 4: is accelerating exactly like Terrence McKenna was saying, things speed
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: up very very quickly, and it feels like we're on
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: the cusp either of killing ourselves, which is one option,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: or undergoing some profound transformation as a species, whether it
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: means becoming a spacefaring nation or a space faring civilization,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: or whether it means going in the opposite direction and
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: becoming some kind of post biological civilization that exists beyond
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: space and beyond time perhaps and kind of joining the
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 4: crowd of these intelligences that have made that transition perhaps
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 4: billions of years ago.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: You know, do you think that this chaos is the
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: only way that things get done?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: So this is my thought.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: If everything's perfect and everything's wonderful and fine, there's very
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: little motivation for radical change. And radical change is what
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: you need to escape the primate instincts.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: That we have.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as McKenna had the great quote of that we're
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: There we go, such a perfect way to describe us.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: That is what we are, right, So in order to
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: escape that, things have to almost be so chaotic that
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: it demands radical change. It demands like we were literally like,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: and this is how we look at many things, even
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: things that aren't totally warranted, like climate change or COVID
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: or anything, like, we look at it like, oh my god,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: it's an existential crisis, like we have to do something
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: right now. And this is how also we approach political
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: dissent or political disagreements. If the left wing wins, the
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: world is over. If the right wins, the world is over.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: And it's like this like is almost like this is
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: how we have to function in order to really get
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: things done. And as things are getting more and more
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: crazy in terms of technology and in terms of the
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: con consequences of our actions post nuclear bomb, post fusion,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: post Hadron collider, post AI is where it gets really
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: where we have to kind of be like, we really.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: Got to get going, guys, We really got to do something.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: We have to.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: Figure out what's the right way to proceed in order
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: to not blow ourselves up. Ye Like, and I feel
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: like this is maybe the only way that you motivate
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: this kind of extreme chain, which seems like our destiny,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: our destiny is some sort of a very bizarre extreme
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: change that seems to probably be happening within your in
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: my lifetime, something's happening right now that is going to
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: be different than anything that's ever happened before, which is
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: the birth of artificial general superintelligence. Right in front of
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: our eyes. Some sort of a digital supreme being is
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: going to exist, and we're gonna have to figure out society.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: We're gonna have to figure out everything. It's gonna be
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: a complete this idea of like having bullshit congressional candidates
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: that are full of shit and paid off by these companies,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: and they're gonna make laws that screw you over and
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: get all that's out the window when no humans control
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: anything anymore. And that's entirely possible inside of our lifetime,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: and I think more likely than not, because if you
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: look at all the harm we've done to the rivers
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: in the ocean and the world, and all the stupid
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: shit we do on a daily basis, if artificial intellig
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: just comes along and says all of this is completely unnecessary.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: Just let us take the reins, and we'll solve all
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: of your energy problems, all of your inequality problems, all
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: of your famine.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: We're going to solve it. All very quickly, and we're
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: going to stop all wars. You'd have to be a
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: fool to say no.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: I value freedom more than I fear nuclear war. There'll
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: probably some fat, sweaty right wing guy who's on TV
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: with an American flag at his lapel, and he'll.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: Tell you that freedom is more. We have gotten to
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five because.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 4: Of freak, he said Alex Jones.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: Alex Jones is right about most things.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: I feel like maybe that's the only way things get
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: done is through chaos. Like that, we have to have
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: a motivation. Like what is the best motivation for success.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: I think it's poverty. Will you grow up poor? People
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: that grow up poor have an extra gear. They get
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: things done. Like in terms of like athletes, certainly in
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: terms of fighters, I would say the vast majority of
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: elite MMA fighters had a bad childhood.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: Not all of them.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of really great guys and really great
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: fighters that have wonderful parents and they just love competition
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: and they just have it in them.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: But that's that's the outlier. Really.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: The common one is someone who was beaten up a
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: lot as a child, gangs, beaten into gangs, like been
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: around violence, a lot had older brother maybe abusive fathers.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: That's a big one. And those people because of that
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: have a motivation to do something that other people don't.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: They can push harder, they can solve complex combat sports
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: problems that other people don't solve us quickly. I wonder
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: if that's the case with everything they like. In order
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: to really get things done, like, you have to have
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 3: a chaotic society that would even accept AI. Like in
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: order for AI to if we were some peaceful Buddhist
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: civilization that was living completely in harmony with the earth,
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: with regenerative farming everywhere, no use of plastics, all fossil
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: fuels are either eliminated or reduced down to some sort
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: of bioavailable, recyclable material that we then you know, put
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: back into the mult or whatever the fuck we do.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: And then someone came along and said, we're going to
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: develop artificial intelligence, and these nerds in Seemi Valley you're
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: going to control it. You'd be like, what what are.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: You talking about?
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, I mean, I have.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: Some Silicone Valley guys with autism, and they're gonna be
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: the ones that are in charge of the destiny of
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: the human race because they're going to create a digital god.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: You'd be like, no, no, slow down, hold on. But
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: if you're in a place where you look at Gaza's
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: getting destroyed, and you'll see what's going on. In Ukraine
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: they're putting sixty year old guys in the front line
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: and Russia and they're using drone bombs with monofilament line
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: behind them. Because they don't want anti drone technologies, they
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: come up with new ways to kill each other. Like
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: maybe AI is a solution because it's so crazy, everything's
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: so nuts. You look at India and those rivers that
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: are completely choked with plastic, plastic bottles and garbage.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: And you look at China, the places.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: Where they make blue jeans with the entire rivers blue
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: from our stupid fucking genes that they manufacture for us,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: and you go wow, like, maybe it kind of has
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: to be this fun. Maybe we have to in order
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: to accept the fact that we need help. Maybe we
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: have to fuck it up first.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe we have to fuck it up so bad on
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: our own that if we didn't fuck it up, we.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: Would never have the need for it. We'd be like, well,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: as a person, my goal in life is to achieve
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: enlightenment and to be a better version of me. And
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: that's not having something that's digital that has no emotions
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: and feelings and no empathy whatsoever unless I program it
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: into it. I have that have supreme control over all
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: the available resources on earth.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna pass on that.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think that generally, there's a there's
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 4: a fundamental principle that the most interesting things happen at
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: the edge of chaos, you know, And this applies it
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: applies to the brain. The brain actually sits at the
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 4: edge of chaos.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: It's complex systems. We have lots of interacting parts. They
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: can they can they can display behavior from perfect order
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: all the way to complete chaos. Now, perfect order is boring,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: nothing happens. Complete chaos is useless because it's it's it's
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 4: it's not actually technically random, but it's complete. It's a
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: complete mess. Whereas when you get that balance right, you
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 4: reach a point that's called the edge of chaos, where
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 4: order and disorder are perfectly balanced. Psychedelics they, as I
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 4: said before, they nudge the brain into that slightly disordered state.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 4: But all things, all cells, all living organisms, complex society
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: and societies, they operate at the edge of chaos. So
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: I think what you're saying kind of resonates with that
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 4: idea that interesting things happen globally within civilizations, not when
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: everything is perfect, but when things are have are close
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: to going out of control and you have to push
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: it as far as you can push it without descending.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: We're always on the edge of everything collapsing, and we're
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: probably closer to that than we actually realize. And so
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: I think that's kind of what happening. And I think
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: when it comes to superintelligence, there's an interesting idea which
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: I've been playing with, is, well, if there is some
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: kind of superintelligence that does emerge, and that might be
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: the fate of all intelligent civilizations. The astrobiologist Stephen Dick
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: conceived of something called the intelligence principle, which basically says
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: that any civilization will try to maximize intelligence because when
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: you maximize intelligence, you improve education, you improve technology, everything improves,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 4: and ultimately the intelligence that the civilization have leads to
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 4: the generation of superintelligences, you know, the artificial intelligences that
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 4: we have now that then become superintelligences. And of course
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: this superintelligence isn't going to be kind of running on
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: the kind of transistor architectures that we're familiar with. A
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: superintelligence will find a way to instantiate itself using the
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: fundamental computational substrate of space time itself. That's where it's
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 4: going to learn how to go. And that might be
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 4: the fate, is that this superintelligence, when it emerges on Earth,
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 4: it instantiates itself into the fundamental substrate of reality, perhaps
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 4: usurps us or swallows us up, or maybe just destroys us,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 4: and then that becomes part of that vast population of
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 4: superintelligences that permeate the cosmos, and that might be what
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 4: we're interacting with. When you smoke dmts, you're interacting with
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: one of these super intelligence, which would explain why it
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: seems so technological and so inorganic right the DMT space.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: It's like you're interacting not with other living beings like us,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 4: but you're interacting with what seems to be thoroughly alien intelligences.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 4: And that could be what's where we're heading. I don't
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: Whether we're going to merge with this superintelligence in some
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: way and that's our ultimate destiny or whether it's simply
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 4: going to destroy us and we're just going to be lost,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 4: where basically we're kind of like the tools that the
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 4: intelligence is used is to create new versions, so superintelligent.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: That's the theory that a lot of people have in
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: terms of like why human beings exist in the first place,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: that human beings exist because we're designed to work really
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: hard until we develop artificial life, and then artificial life
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: takes it from here, like we got it.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: You guys are so flawed.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: And then it also coincides with a drop in sperm count,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 3: drop in fertility rates for women, increase in miscarriages, microplastics
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: and everybody's body and their diet that disrupt the endocrine
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: system and keep you from reproducing as easily. All those
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: things are happening simultaneously, and it's quite fascinating. I mean,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: you would look, if you thought of it as a pattern,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: you'd be like, oh, it's happening right now. Look, there's
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: this dip and testosterone, this rise in miscarriages, this fertility
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: rate issue, chaos at the border. All this stuff is
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: happening at the same time. It's all happening while this
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: artificial life is being generated, and it may already exist
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: to be here, because hasn't announced itself. There's such a
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: minimal understanding of how these things even work. It might exist,
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: but is still reliant upon a power source that's insufficient
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: for its needs, you know, because that's the thing about it, right,
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: Michio Kakko was talking about this, and also av Lob
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 3: was actually talking about this the other night. The amount
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: of power that the human mind uses to make computations
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: is so minimal in comparison to the amount of power
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: that these data centers need to run AI.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: It's kind of extraordinary.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: And av Lob was pointing out the other day that
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: they're building nuclear power plants specifically to fuel these AI
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: centers that they're creating, which is really not I think
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 3: Google has one AI built one AI project where they're
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: building three separate nuclear power plants to power this one
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: AI data center.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: What is what does that mean? Like how much?
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: That's the thing that people don't understand about AI itself
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: is the power demands are insane, and if everything goes
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: artificial general superintelligence with this grid that we have right now,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: this grid sucks. This grid is designed for toasters and
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: recharging your cell phone. It's not designed to power AI centers,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: and so it might already be here, but it might
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: be like you guys got to figure out power before
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: we announce ourselves.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that eventually it will it will
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 4: discover or learn how to instantiate itself without requiring this
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 4: massive I mean, obviously, as you said, the brain is
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 4: able to perform massive parallel computations, you know, obviously with
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: very little energy. And so eventually this artificial intelligence will
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 4: discover the means of instantiating itself without requiring that. And
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: I think that's where we start looking downwards. That's where
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 4: we start looking deep down at the lowest levels. That's
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 4: where it's going. It's gonna zeroply energy.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is the theory about aliens
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: or UAPs, like how they travel here, that they're they're
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 3: using something that's i mean, the Elon stuff, the SpaceX
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: stuff is so impressive but so old school, and that
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: what they have done is figured out a way to
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: use all the power and power that's around you all
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: the time. And how put Off talks about this, he
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: talks about the concept of them harnessing zero point energy,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: and this is also something that Bob Azar referred to
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: when he was working allegedly on those back engineering of
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: UFOs at Area fifty one, Site four. He was saying
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: that they essentially are creating a void of gravity and
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: pushing their folding space essentially, or they're like the way
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 3: he described it, it's as if you took a really
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: heavy object like a bowling ball, and you put in
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: a soft cushion mattress, it sinks in there, and that
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: that's what it would do to space time, that it
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: would essentially cause this bubble and put.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: You in another place.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: So instead of pushing yourself there with jet fuel that's burning, yeah,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: you just get sucked there and almost instantaneously.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: And so what we're thinking.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: Of is, you know, amazing rocket travels, super old school yeah,
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: and I mean amazing rocket travel. If you showed that
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: to people a thousand years ago, you'd be like, what
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 3: the fuck is that? That's insane and to us it's
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: just cool. Or cell phones, which is even probably more impressive.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: Show a cell phone to someone just two hundred years
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: ago and they'd be like this is sorcery, Like this
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: is absolutely insane that you're able to do. So we
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: could imagine a world two hundred years from now where
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: gravity travel is completely normal, whether they've harnessed this and
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: they've figured out how to make a stable version of
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: element one fifteen or whatever it is. This is his
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: idea that he said they were trying to back engineer
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: from these alleged crafts, was that they had this stable
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: element of one point fifteen that they bombard with radiation
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: and it creates this sort of gravity whole, and then
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: they can use this and aim it and propel this
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: craft to various places with that.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 4: I think are you familiar with John Mack?
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think you know when we talk about aliens,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 4: how you're kind of describing it. This is I think
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 4: how most people actually think about aliens, as I said,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 4: as these beings that are that are very very much physical.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 4: And the abduction phenomenon that John Mack of course, I
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 4: mean John Mack was, as you might be aware, I mean,
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: he was at the top of his game. You know,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: this guy was the head of the Harvard School of
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 4: Psychiatry or something like this. Yeah, so when he first
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 4: heard about people being abducted, I mean he assumed that
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 4: they were just hallucinating. Carl Sagan famously told Mac that
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 4: abdictees were just hallucinating. And John Max said, you know,
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 4: what the fuck do you know about hallucinations? Because John
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 4: Mack knew a lot about hallucinations, and he knew that
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 4: this wasn't easy to explain. It wasn't People were describing
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 4: the same kinds of experiences. People who have no interaction
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 4: with each other were describing exactly the same scenario.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: Are you familiar with Jacques Valow's work, Yes, so, Jacques
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: Vallet one of the more interesting things about some I've
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: read four or five of his books or listened to
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: four or five of his books now. But one of
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: the more interesting things is when he gets into historical
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: accounts and that these historical accounts with they there's no
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 3: way they could have somehow or another been sharing information.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: But they're the same. They're very, very very similar within
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 3: a realm, within a range of not having the vocabulary
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: to be able to adequately describe something completely novel and
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: alien to another person. Within that range, when you take
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: into account the similarities that they're describing, they're very similar.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: In the seventeen hundreds, in the eighteen hundreds, all the
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: way up to Betty and Barney Hill, when that one
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: which became probably the most popular of all time, but
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: one of the most famous ones. That one was just
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: like all these stories from the seventeen hundreds, which is
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: really weird.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: Yes it is.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 4: And I think what you're seeing is the same phenomenon that,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 4: as you say is obviously how you describe is influenced
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 4: by your worldview. You see the same thing with DMT.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: So there's a tribe called the Anamami in the Amazon
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: and a very large indigenous group, and they describe beings
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 4: when they take these plant based preparations that contain DMT.
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 4: Yopo is probably the most well known. It's like a snuff.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 4: Have you heard of yopo?
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: I've heard of it through McKenna, that they blow it
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: up each other's nerves.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like that horrible, horrible.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 4: But when they take it, they describe seeing these beings,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 4: tiny beings that are lively, they're affable, they're colorful, they
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 4: operate in great numbers. They're dancing and singing. And these
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 4: sound like eh, they sound like elms.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 4: When when DMT was first injected in a human, pure
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 4: DMT in the nineteen fifties by a Hungarian physician called
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 4: Stephen Zara. He was the one who discovered the psychedelic
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 4: properties are pure DMPT. One of his first subjects described
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 4: seeing small beings that moved around very very quickly, and
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 4: the younamami they also have these beings they called wadusi nadi,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 4: which are like insect beings, which are kind of so
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 4: again you're seeing the same kinds of beings that people
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 4: now describe being operated upon by highly advanced manted beings.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: They are the scariest ones.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 4: Apparently they're the scariest ones, or certainly one of them.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 4: And then when you look at John Mack's reports of abductions,
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 4: again they often describe the same types of beings. They
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 4: describe going to a world that is higher dimensional that
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 4: seems to subsume this reality, and many of the reports,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 4: there's one report in his first book, Abduction, John Max's
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 4: first book about the abduction experience anyway, where one of
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 4: his subjects describes these small, lively beings that bound around,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 4: I mean bound around, that's a can of phrase. He
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 4: talks about the elves bounding into the room. And so
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 4: I think there is clearly some connection. There's we're not
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: talking about. I don't think the abduction experience is kind
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 4: of separate from the DMT experiences. They're different aspects of
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 4: an ancient phenomenon, which is humans interacting with normally invisible,
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 4: unseen beings, advanced intelligences from human intelligences, and how that
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 4: manifests varies, but ultimately I think it's the same thing.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 4: Of course, in the past they might describe them as spirits,
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 4: we might describe them as you know, non human intelligence
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 4: or discarnate entities, or intelligent agents or post biological aliens.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter what we call them. I think it's
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 4: the same phenomenon. And we've spent our life kind of
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 4: the entire history of human development this phenomenon has been occurring,
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 4: and in the Amazon rainforests they develop these tools, these technologies.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 4: Ayahuasca is a technology. It's not just a mixture of plants.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 4: It is a true pharmacological technology that they use two
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 4: as kind of visual prosthige, as one anthropologist calls it,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 4: that allows them to see and interact with and develop
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 4: long term relationships, so to speak, with these otherwise invisible,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 4: hidden ones. And now in the twenty first century, we've
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 4: got perhaps the ideal tool, which is actually pure DMT
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 4: itself and we're kind of learning how to use that
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 4: now in our own kind of with our own kind
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 4: of modern twist if you want.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder what the relationship is between the DMT
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: state and this alien abduction phenomenon, and not just abduction
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 3: but encounter, because there are there are there are They
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 3: aren't all abduction experiences. A lot of them are just encounters,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 3: and that you know, maybe if you wanted to think
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: about the role that human beings have on this planet,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: we perhaps we're an intelligence farm, and that like any
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 3: good farm, like if you're a farmer, and let's say
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 3: you're a sheep herder, you're raising sheep, Well, you have
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: to keep make sure the wols stay out, so you
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: have to have sheep dogs and make sure they have
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 3: good grass to grow on. And then eventually you'll get
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: a nice crop a sheep, and then you get some
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 3: wool out of that, and you get some meat out
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 3: of that, and that's the whole purpose of the whole thing.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's the reason why we exist in the first place,
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: is that we're here to farm intelligence, and that what
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: we're doing biologically, what we are biologically is just a
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: kind of a crude, clunky, shitty, patch together version of
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: these territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons that have figured out
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: a way to make something far superior than itself. And
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 3: that's what our goal was all along. I always talk
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 3: about us, I say that we're some sort of a
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 3: biological like we're we're like a caterpillar and we're making
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 3: a cocoon and we don't know why, but we're to
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: turn into this technological butterfly. But I think Marshall McLuhan
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 3: even said it better than me. He said, human beings
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: are the sex organs of the machine world.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: Whooo, how great is that? That's a great, great quote.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 4: You know, with as regards the connection between the abduction
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 4: phenomenon and the DMT state, for example, I think the
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 4: DMT state, as I said, is when the DMT state
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 4: creates this neurological state where this intelligence can interact with
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 4: our brain directly. And I think that the abduction, you know,
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 4: John Mack towards the end later on, at least he
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 4: left behind the kind of the nuts and bolts idea
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 4: that we're talking about physical beings that were landing on
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 4: the lawn sneaking in through the window and plucking people
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 4: from their beds, but actually that the intelligences might well
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 4: be entirely non physical, but we're interacting with their brain
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 4: in the same way I think is happening with DMT.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 4: That they are interacting directly and inducing them effectively into
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 4: this altered state and directed them to some end. I
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 4: don't know what the purpose is, directed them into their
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 4: a vision of their reality, or or for some other purpose.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure, but I think it's it's it's it's
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 4: all about interaction between your brain.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 3: I think maybe being abducted and being taken aboard a
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: physical object and examined is easier to handle than what's
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 3: really going on. Oh yeah, maybe that's what it is
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: like in a dream, how you sort of formulate these
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: things that make sense. You know, you formulate a calculator,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: you formulate a book, you formulate a bed that you're
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: lying in, all that stuff that you understand that makes sense.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what's happened. Maybe it's so weird that it's like,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: let's just let's just say ye say an alien because
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: you probably can't handle the truth.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's probably that, probably true.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's why the experience is so similar.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not that, because otherwise you would say, well, damn,
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: aren't these fucking UFOs evolving quicker than us? Because if
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 3: they're doing the same shit in nineteen fifty whatever it
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 3: was when Betty and Barney Hill were abducted that they're
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: doing in twenty twenty five, that doesn't make sense because
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, like, we have way better cars
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: than we had in nineteen fifty five or whatever year
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: it was when they got abducted.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: Our car I drove here in at Tesla.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: That fucking thinks the spaceship, Like, I think about it
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: sometimes when I'm in these things, like these are so
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: advanced in comparison to anything that existed before. Why aren't
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: the spaceships more advanced? Like why why are they still
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: like just showing up like that, looking like a flying saucer.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Don't they have a better model of this? Why are
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: they sending us this old shitty tech?
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it might have been they might have
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 4: perfected the technology a million years ago.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: Oh booho, how's that possible?
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 4: So you wouldn't expect NESSELLI a change in the last year.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 3: They perfected it. It would be non physical. It wouldn't
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 3: even have to They come here in some sort of
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 3: a fucking alloy disc that seems so clunky, that seems
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: old school to what's coming. You know, like, if artificial
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 3: intelligence continues to make better versions of itself and then
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 3: somehow or another figures out how to run on quantum
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 3: computing architecture, Okay, well then you have digital God. And
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: why would digital God need a spaceship to fly around in?
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: Exactly? It's the whole thing is. It's baffling and paradoxical,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 4: and none of it kind of makes sense. I think
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 4: if you able to view this phenomenon from a god
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 4: god God's eye view, it would all kind of right,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 4: that makes sense.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also you throw in simulation theory in with
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you go, okay,
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: well what is this then? What is this really? Right?
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: What is this really like?
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe all the weird stuff like Bigfoot and all this
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: weird stuff, Maybe it's it's like a part of the
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 3: weirdness of it by design that it's supposed to be
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 3: goofy enough that you figure out eventually that there's is
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 3: a simulation.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I see reality as a kind of
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 4: game in a way I get the feeling that reality
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 4: is in some sense playful. That's an ancient idea. I
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 4: mean that goes back to the ancient kind of Hindu philosophy,
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 4: the idea of Brockman the ultimate reality, playing at creating
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 4: the universes. They call it Leela, the idea that creating,
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 4: you know, Brockman is the ultimate reality. He or it
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 4: or they doesn't have to create reality. It could just
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 4: exist imperfect, you know, but im pure, unadult rated perfection,
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 4: you know, complete unending bliss. But instead it decides to
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 4: kind of to create realities to get lost, for fun,
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 4: to get lost. And we're kind of we are part
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 4: of we do. Everything is Brockman, as they say, everything
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 4: is the ultimate reality, and we're kind of lost within.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: We're tumbling in through this crazy world that seems really
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 4: real and really important and fun and terrifying and all
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 4: of those things, and it's it's it's a great ride.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 4: But then eventually we realize, oh, actually this is it's
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 4: just a game. It's all illusion. Everything, all of all
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 4: form is illusion. And and I think DMT ultimately is
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 4: an expression of that, you know, it shows us actually
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 4: that reality is far stranger than we we could possibly imagine, yeah,
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 4: and that actually we don't know anything about what's the
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 4: true nature of reality, and this world isn't so solid
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 4: and important and serious. It's actually all part of this
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 4: cosmic drama, this cosmic game that we're playing, and we've
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 4: we've forgotten that we're playing. And perhaps one day we'll
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 4: realize that, oh we're kind of wake up from the
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 4: game or work out, you know, maybe there is some
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 4: maybe it's like a puzzle and d m T is
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 4: one piece of that puzzle that allows us to figure
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 4: out how to complete the game in a sense. And
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: then we kind of ah, fantastic, we've we've we've done it.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 4: And then everyone's now. This is why I think when
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 4: people smoke d MT, they there's this great celebratory uproar.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 4: You know, the lights are.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: Flashing, Eh, he's here, he's.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 4: Bag woo, you know, and they realize they know, it
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: feels like you're you're interacting with an intelligence that really
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 4: knows what's going on. And and and it's kind of
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 4: excited that we're we're popping in temporarily just for a
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 4: few minutes, but we're getting close. It feels like, you know,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 4: we've discovered the technology because because d m T is
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 4: kind of it's weird, right, It's everywhere. It's like in
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 4: probably all plants.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 4: Dennis McKenna likes to say nature is drenched in d
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 4: MT because it is.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah impression.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah really.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: You got access, yeah, you know.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 4: And and yet at the same time, you can't just
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: kind of munch on plants, right because he's not already right.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: So you're aware.
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 3: I'm sure of those scholars from Israel that think that
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 3: the burning bush that Moses encountered was probably the acacia
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 3: bush that contained d MT.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is an stratsman. One of his books is
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 4: Soelen the Prophet.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 3: He was blowing my mind last time he was here.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 3: He thinks that the Bible is real, that it's real
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 3: stories that may have happened in parallel dimensions.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: Wow, And I was like, what's exeltic?
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 3: And I'm like we're both I'm like, I'm trying to
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 3: like be on his wavelength. I'm trying to tune in,
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: which is he's so out there. That guy's so he's
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 3: so out there. Do you know he learned ancient Hebrew
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 3: self taught for sixteen years so that he could read
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: the Bible in its source language. That's that's out there.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a dude in New Mexico. He's got play time.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: He is out there. That guy's out there. But that's
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: a very interesting take that they're true stories. You know.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: I was watching this very bizarre YouTube video last night.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: I got sucked in.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 3: I clicked on it, and it was all about the
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 3: Sumerian kings list and that the Sumeri they found a
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: tablet is cuneiform tablet that it shows this list of
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 3: kings and how long they reigned, and then there's the
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 3: Great Flood and these some of these kings reigned for
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 3: like forty thousand years, thirty thousand years, and then and
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 3: the total timeline of all of them, I think it's
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 3: like two hundred plus thousand years. And then there's the
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 3: Great Flood. And then after the Great Flood there's a
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 3: very small lifespan. There's like fifty years. They've run for
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: forty years. But all of the post flood kings are correct.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: They're all like historically.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 3: They resonate with other historical texts, other cuneiform tablets, other
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 3: different depictions of when this king ran, you know, Mesopotamia
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 3: and this k king ran Sumra, but their old versions
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 3: are these like really weird, like pre flood, it's real weird.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: It's like, what are you talking about forty thousand years?
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 3: Like what does that mean? Are you just making it up?
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: Is it just a myth? Is it was there? A
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: different thing here then? Like are we just assuming that
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: this lifespan that human beings have of one hundred and
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 3: twenty years is normal?
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: Like is this what we always had?
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 3: Or are what we are today a very bizarre version
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: of what used to exist? Are we like a fucking
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 3: chihuahua and we used to be a wolf? Was were
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: we something very different at one point in time? And
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 3: are we the remnants of whatever survived whatever cataclysmic disaster
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: or that every ancient civilization depicts as a great flood?
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: Like multiple different civilizations talk about this one event that
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: seems to be a real event, Like what are they
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 3: trying to say? And why is that also in the Bible?
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 3: Like why was Noah like six hundred years old? Why
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: were these people so old? Like what does that mean?
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 3: Did you just get did you guys suck at calendars?
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: Or are we talking about a very different reality back then?
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 3: Because if the great flood is true. Let's imagine there
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: is a spectacular civilization. This is my most romantic view
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 3: of ancient history. There's a spectacular civilization that exists.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: It exists in ancient Egypt.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 3: They have technology that's far beyond anything we've achieved today.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: It's just gone down a totally different path. And what
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 3: they're really into is making these insane stone structures that
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: defy any modern construction methods, any transportation methods.
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: Everything's out the window.
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 3: We have no idea how they did it, and they
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 3: did it way before anybody was doing anything remotely like that.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: How old are those things for real?
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 3: We don't really know, Like if there was some insanely
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 3: sophisticated society where if you want to figure things out,
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 3: you probably it's probably hard to figure things out if
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 3: you only live to be one hundred years. And then
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: if everybody else has ego and everybody's like that is
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: not true.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: The laws of thermo.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 3: Dynamics cannot be and like you have all these egos
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 3: involved in universities, you have all these egos involved in
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 3: the technology companies, and then of course political people like
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 3: Xai Hawas, who's in charge of the egypt antiquities he's
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 3: the gatekeeper of all the information about Egypt. So you
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 3: have all these kind of egos. Wouldn't it be like
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 3: way easier to get past that if you live fifty
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 3: thousand years, if you lived one hundred thousand years, like
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 3: you would think that kind of a human being or
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 3: that kind of an intelligence creature would be able to
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: accomplish way more. It'd probably get over all it's bullshit
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 3: by the time it's one hundred and fifty, and then
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 3: it would be starting to figure out some things that
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: if it had no cognitive decline and it does live
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 3: to be thousands of years old, that's not insane because
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: we're just randomly living to be one hundred and twenty
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 3: years Like, wow, you made it to one hundred and ten, Grandpa,
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 3: what a great life. Though they would probably look and go,
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: that's a bullshit life, Like you can't figure anything out.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: And maybe that's part of the design.
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 4: That's part of it.
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's part of the design to ensure chaos. Like
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: if you want to ensure chaos, you can't live long
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 3: enough to recognize the hustle, right, because if you live
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 3: long enough to recognize the hustle.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: You'd be like, why are we arguing?
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 3: Like I argue way less at fifty eight than I
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: ever did at twenty, and I argue less at.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: Twenty eight that I ever did at eighteen.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 3: As you get older, you realize, like this is nonsense,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 3: This is a complete waste of time, and you could
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 3: get through most disagreements with just cordial community, Like you
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 3: don't really need to argue as much as people argue,
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 3: but they feed off of it, and I think it's
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 3: a stupid way to communicate. And I think if a
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 3: society figured that out, Like if a society it consists
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 3: of people that live one hundred thousand years, if you
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 3: have thirty thousand year old people living amongst you that
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 3: are far more intelligent than we are today and that
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 3: possibly communicate telepathy through telepathy, which there's some evidence that
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 3: we do today, at least a little bit we do.
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: We know we're not the best at it, but would
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 3: there some evidence that it takes place. We might be
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 3: like the rejects, We might be the stragglers. We might
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 3: be the fucking the preppers that survived whatever the hell
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 3: happened eleven thousand years ago, and we're just a shitty
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: version of what designed all the pyramids built the world
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: had some sort of bizarre technology that we still haven't
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 3: figured out yet.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we definitely live life on kind of
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 4: hard mode.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 4: It's like, as you said, if you if you only
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 4: live for a hundred years or less, then it is
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 4: very difficult to work things out into.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: The Formula one race.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 3: It's not a lovely stroll through the neighborhood where you're
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 3: like checking out the houses, look at that beautiful hill,
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 3: like you know.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 4: It's so maybe it is part of it's part of
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 4: the game. Is that it might be, yeah, that we
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 4: only live for us.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 3: It might be, or it just might be this is
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 3: the shitty version of humans, and this is what the
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 3: shitty version of humans makes. Like the really good version
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: of humans makes pyramids, like when a person can live
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 3: to be thirty thousand years old, that's what they make.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 3: They make spectacular like homages to the cosmos on the ground.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Or it could also be that like the philosopher
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 4: Alfred North Whitehead, he once said that you cannot prove
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 4: that the world didn't appear five minutes ago. You know,
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 4: you really can't with all the memories and everything. So
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 4: in fact, all of that stuff ten thousand years ago.
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 4: It literally didn't happen, and that the world popped into
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 4: the simulation was kind of booted up with all of
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: that preloaded. That kind of keep us occupied about the
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 4: the grand mystery of ancient history, Like you know, we
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 4: get excited about it and fascinate all that all those
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 4: incredible things that were happening. It never happened, it was.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 4: It was just preloaded into the game to keep us occupied.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 3: That's nuts from your own personal perspective. If you weren't
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 3: in World War Two, you don't know it's real, right, Yeah.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 3: And I think about that every day when I wake up,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 3: because when I wait up, the weird thing about waking
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 3: up is you're just assuming that you've been awake before.
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that you're the same person.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I assume.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of know what it's like to be me.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 3: So every day when I wake up, I'm like, look,
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 3: I'm me again. I go, But how do I know
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 3: that this is not my first run through this?
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. This is my first run through.
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 3: This with a shitty memory of the past, or in
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 3: an induced memory that facilitates my motion. It keeps me
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 3: moving in the same direction, It keeps me pushing towards
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 3: whatever I'm pushing towards. And that's what Sam Autman gets
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 3: every day when he wakes up, that he creates his
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 3: digital guard.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: So I guess I'm awake. I guess I'm doing it.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there is this fascinating Terence McKenna. He
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 4: often spoke in my head at least about these what
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 4: seemed to me is completely conflicting trajectories for humanity. In
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 4: one breath, he talk about us returning to the archaic,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 4: of returning to the forest and becoming one with nature again,
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 4: and then in the next breath he'd talk about us
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 4: setting off for the stars. It seems like there's this tension.
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 4: Part of us wants to go. We all want to
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 4: live in an old, rustic house that's made of wood
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 4: in a forest and cook on an open fire. And
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 4: yet there'sn't this other part of us that wants to
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 4: live in these machinic buildings and and and be operated,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 4: you know, operating these highly complex technological machines. And it's like,
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 4: you know, which way, you know, do we allow ourselves
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 4: we pulled back into the archaic, or do we push
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 4: past and transcend and become posthuman you know, or post biological.
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 4: Uh and and maybe that's that's kind of part of
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 4: the game. You know, are we going to be dragged
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 4: back or which wouldn't be bad to be dragged back
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 4: into that more? You imagine the bucholic life and a
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 4: a in a in a beautiful kind of forest scene
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 4: with with the nice old houses. And we all love that, right,
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 4: we all, we all, we all kind of yearn for that.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 4: I think, I mean, I do. I think there's part
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 4: of me that wants to live in Tokyo where I
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 4: do now. Uh And this this this incredibly cyberpunk technological
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 4: city that's it seems like it's been secreted out of
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 4: metal and glass and entirely unnatural structure that's kind of
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 4: emerges from human intelligence. I mean, that's a weird thing.
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 4: But in a way, these structures that we see, they
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 4: seem entirely non human. They see it's like we are
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 4: tapping into something else, something non human, and we can't
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 4: help ourselves and our cities that we build. And these
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 4: highly complex technological and computerized machines feels like they are
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 4: being kind of secreted by our intelligence and pulled out
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 4: of the earth.
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 3: You know, maybe that's why they're also similar too, right, Yeah,
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: they're similar in they differ obviously in the way they look,
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 3: but they're similar in the structure, and they're similar in
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 3: the density, you know when you get I mean there's
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 3: enormous ones.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: Like I was watching this.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: Video of the largest city in the world, which I
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 3: believe is in China. What's the largest run that into perplexity.
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 3: What's the largest city in the world.
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 4: I hope they're going to say Tokyo. I thought it
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 4: was Tokyo. Great to Tokyo.
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know the most populated populated. When I say largest,
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 3: I'll probably say the most populated. I think they were
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: saying it's thirty six million people.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 4: Okay, the is it?
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Tokyo is more than thirty six million.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 4: I looked it up the other day just I was curious,
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 4: like thirty seven or forty million of the great Tokyo area.
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, that's crazy. Is so Tokyo's number one? Okay?
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 3: So this was probably the most populated in well, Okay,
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 3: So that's followed by Delhi, India, which is three hundred
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 3: and thirty four rather thirty four million, six hundred and
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 3: sixty five thousand, six hundred people. How don't they know
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 3: it's just six hundred. There's probably a few people snuck
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 3: in there that they don't know about. You can't say that.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: Don't round that out.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 3: And then there's Shanghai, but wasn't Shanghai. It was another
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 3: city in China that they were talking about. Maybe they
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 3: just exaggerated the numbers. But okay, so Tokyo is a
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 3: perfect example.
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: Then, like it's weird how.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 3: Like New York City Tokyo and to some extent, La,
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: although LA is just so fucked up, Like the downtown
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 3: is the most useless part of LA. It's really weird,
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 3: Like downtown.
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: Have you been in La.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 4: I've been a couple of times, but I've not really explored.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 3: Nobody goes downtown, okay, Okay, Downtown is like they tried
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 3: to revive downtown for a while before the pandemic and
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 3: then everybody gave up. But downtown, it's not like there's
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 3: a bunch of like like everybody has an apartment downtown. No,
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: most people live in the other areas of LA, And
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 3: downtown is like there's some banks and some businesses, but
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 3: there's also skid row. The downtown is crazy. It's like
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 3: a really fucked up place, a lot of abandoned buildings,
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 3: like Downtown is where we did a lot of Fear
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 3: Factor stunts back in the day, because we can get
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 3: an abandoned warehouse to set up like a set there
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 3: and do the show. So it's a very weird place.
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 3: It's not like an like Downtown Chicago's booming. You know,
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 3: it's downtown Chicago, Downtown New York City like, whoa, you're
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 3: in Manhattan.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: This is crazy. Downtown. LA is not like that because
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: La is broken.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 3: So when you go to La, it's like Downtown is
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 3: like the most bizarre version of a downtown ever.
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants to be there.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, pol city design, I guess I.
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: Don't know what it is. I think some of it
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 2: has to do with what they.
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 3: Did when they made skid Row. So skid Row is
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 3: an entirely constructed thing. And what they did was all
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 3: the vagrants in Beverly Hills and in Hollywood, they like, listen,
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 3: get the fuck out of here, you pick them up,
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 3: you take them, throw them in the wagon, bring them
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 3: to skid Row, and then keep them there. Don't let
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 3: them leave, just contain them in an area. And that's
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 3: essentially what they did. There's a documentary on that hotel.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 3: Was that hotel again, Jamie Cecil Hotel where it talks
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 3: about skid Row itself, Like it's the documentary is about
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 3: this girl who was They thought that she was missing,
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 3: that someone had kidnapped her or something, but she was schizophrenic.
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 3: She got off from medication and she apparently climbed into
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 3: the water cistern and drowned. But the point of the
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 3: documentary was not just that. It's like, this lady came
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 3: here not knowing what downtown was, and so she got
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 3: a room at the hotel downtown. They oh, get a
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 3: nice room at a hotel downtown, but like, it's fucking
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 3: zombie boulevard.
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 2: It's greazy.
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 3: Show him what skid Row looks like. Show him a
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 3: video of what skid Row looks like. Now, when we
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 3: were filming Fear Factor, this was like two thousand and
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 3: four ish something like that, I accidentally drove through skid Row.
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 3: I drove to skid Row. I was driving home back then.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 3: I think I probably had navigation and my car it
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 3: probably sucked or I wasn't paying attention to it. And
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 3: this is skid Row. Skid Row's nuts, this is close
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 3: up when you have like a lot like when you
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 3: see it from a distance, you get a chance to
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 3: see how completely insane it is. When we were filming,
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 3: there's another fear factor. We filmed there where one of
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: the contestants is like, look, they're smoking crack.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: And we look down and there's people.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 3: We were on a rooftop or something, and then we
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 3: will look down people were smoking crack right in front
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 3: of us, right on the street, like chaos, like skid
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 3: rows nuts and this is this is not even where
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: the tents are set up. Where the tents are set up,
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 3: it's the craziest thing you've ever seen. It's like these
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 3: shanty villages that go on for blocks and blocks where
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 3: there's no cars going through. The streets are filled with
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 3: homeless people just everyone's on drugs and there's just tents everywhere,
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 3: and you're like, what a failure of society? Yeah, what
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 3: a failure of society that you've allowed this to reach
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 3: the level that it's at.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: Now that's la.
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 4: Have you been to Tokyo?
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: Yes? I have?
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Teko is the complete opposite.
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 3: Complete opposite, super clean, very orderly, people are very polite,
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 3: even though there's so many people in the street sort
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 3: of navigates, moves around with each other in a very
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 3: polite manner. Beautiful architecture, stunning like cyberpunk, as you said,
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 3: very blade runner ast.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 2: You're like, yo, I.
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 3: Was only there for one day for the UFC, so
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 3: I didn't spend a lot of time there, but I
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 3: got I had dinner there, and I hung out there
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 3: for a little bit.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 4: So it really shows you that it is possible to
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 4: have a very large, densely populated city that is safe
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 4: and clean and functioning. Doesn't have to be people say, oh,
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 4: you know, I got robbed, it's just part of being
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 4: in a big city. Or I was stabbed last night,
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 4: or my car was broken into, and it's like, ah,
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 4: this is just what happens when you live in a
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 4: big city, man. And it's like, actually, no, it is
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 4: possible to have safe and clean and Tokyo is fascinating
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 4: because it's an example of what's often called an emergent city.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 4: They don't have this very strict zoning where oh, here,
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 4: it's got to be offices here, it's got to be
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 4: houses here, it's got to be small businesses or anything
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 4: like that. It's like it's all mixed together, and different
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 4: kind of neighborhoods kind of just emerge. You know, there's
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 4: a knife district, for example, people who sell knives, they
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 4: all gather together. There's a bookshop district, there's a you know,
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 4: districts for all different things because they not because someone
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 4: has decided, oh, only bookshops can be here. It's just
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 4: that they tend to gather together. And say, you know,
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 4: you walk around Tokyo and you might you'll find yourself
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 4: in some quiet alley and you'll have little houses and
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 4: then you'll have a little store, often very very tiny
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 4: stores that have been perhaps operating for decades. And that
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 4: if in the UK or I guess in the States
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 4: as well, they would have gone under decades ago.
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 2: You know that the.
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 4: City would have just crushed them. But it seems very
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 4: easy in Tokyo to kind of open a small If
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 4: you have a house and you own it in Tokyo,
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 4: you can buy law, you can convert the first floor
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 4: into a store. You'll get these little old ladies who
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 4: will they bought their house decades ago. They're retired and
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 4: they think, oh what can I do with my time?
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 4: I know, I'll open a cafe, and they say they
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 4: opened a little cafe, hardly anyone goes. Maybe it might
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 4: be could be in the countryside, it could be on
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: the outskirts or whatever, but it doesn't matter because they
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 4: own it and they're not being raped by you know,
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 4: taxis and stuff and all this kind of red tape.
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 4: They don't have to deal with it. So they just
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 4: have this lovely little cafe, entirely unique. They might fill
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 4: it with things they're interested in, so it's a completely
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 4: unique thing that you can go in and she'll serve
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 4: you tea and maybe the cakes that she made this morning.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 4: And there are thousands of these throughout Tokyo, not just
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 4: little old ladies, but young people who own who will
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 4: rent very cheaply. They have these. Have you seen in
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 4: Tokyo when you see the buildings, you often see these
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 4: these neon signs coming down the sides of the building.
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 4: These are called zakio, which is basically miscellaneous use buildings.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 4: And what they are is just very tall buildings and
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 4: each floor you will have some kind of business. It
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 4: could be anything. It's often bars or you know, pool
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 4: rooms or that anything you want, little restaurant, anything like this,
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 4: And of course they can't they don't have the frontage
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 4: on the ground floor, and so they instead they will
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 4: put their their sign neon sign telling you what they
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 4: are down the side of the building. And that's what
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 4: gives Tokyo that unique look, is because it's all of
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 4: these zachio buildings and sometimes if you go a friend
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 4: took me to this bar. Well, it was it was
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 4: like a building. It was in Kabuki Show, which is
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 4: right in the center of Tokyo, and it was it
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 4: was on a side street and there was this tall building,
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 4: gray building. You would never look at it, no sign
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 4: ea or anything. And you look at the elevate when
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 4: you go into the elevator, on each floor there's like
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 4: a name of a business, you know, top hat, eight ball, enigma.
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 4: You have no idea what these are. They're not on
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 4: Google Maps, right. So and he just took pressed the
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 4: button for the eighth floor. He went up and it
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 4: was just this little bar run by this one guy
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 4: and it was you know, it played darts and had
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 4: a drink and a few people came in, not many,
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 4: because most people ninety nine percent of the population of
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 4: Tokyo have no idea that this bar exists, nor could
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 4: they ever know because it's not on Google Maps, there's
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 4: no reviews of it. It doesn't exist, and I couldn't
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 4: find it again unless I call my friend and say
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 4: take me there. I can never go to that bar
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 4: again ever, because I don't know where it is right,
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 4: and there's thousands of.
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: These sounds amazing. Yeah, I want to go right now.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 4: But you've got to take a risk because if you
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 4: just go, if you don't know right and you just
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 4: press the button, you could be some weird girls bar,
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 4: you know, host bar, you know, and they and kind
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 4: of rip you off and stuff. There's a lot of
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 4: danger in going to these places. Well, a lot of yakuza, right,
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of accuser in Kabukicha. Yeah, you've got
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 4: to be very careful because they will drug you and
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 4: then they will take you to a cash machine and
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 4: take your liver.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of crazy stories.
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 6: But when you see that and you live like that, Like,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 6: what keeps the rest of the world from having a
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 6: city like that?
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and I don't want to
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 4: get well, I don't know, but I think culture is everything. Obviously,
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 4: a city is all about the people. You've of course,
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 4: you've got to have the infrastructure, and you've got to
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 4: have it's got to be properly funded, but you also
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 4: need the people that are going to take care of it.
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 4: If you people are trashing it and don't have respect
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 4: for the city, then obviously it's going to fall apart.
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 4: But it's all about the culture. Japan is fascinating. The culture.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 4: I always say to people when you go to Japan,
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 4: you have to switch on my mindset. So normally, as
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 4: a Westerner, I'm thinking about me when I'm out in public,
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about me. What do I want to do,
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 4: where do I want to go?
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: It's all me.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 4: In Japan, you flip that it's about you. Should the
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 4: first thing on your mind should be everybody else. When
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 4: you hear Japanese people talk, you will about people who
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 4: cause problems in cities. They use this word miwaku, which
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 4: means often translated as nuisance. So people who come from
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 4: the West, often America, but not just America. I'm not
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 4: blaming everything on Americans, but it is often and they
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 4: come with their own you know, they're they're the main character,
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 4: this kind of main character syndrome. So they you know
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 4: they're talking. They often you see these Instagram videos of
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 4: people on the metro on the train and like it's
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 4: so quiet, you know, nobody's talking, or nobody's kind of
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 4: listening to music. And that's because they're always thinking about
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 4: the people around them. They are thinking, you know, am
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 4: I obstructing anyone? Am I getting anyone's way? Am I
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 4: annoying anyone? Am I making anyone feel uncomfortable? You're always
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 4: thinking about those around you, and that leads to this
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 4: very respectful, polite society where you can have forty, you know,
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 4: thirty seven million people whatever it is, crammed together together
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 4: in this relatively small area of land, and they're not
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 4: killing each other. They learn I was told I'm not
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 4: sure if this is true, but it's kind of a
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it's a myth. But Japan is
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 4: very mountainous, and so back in the old days, villages
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 4: were isolated. So when you lived in a village, to
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 4: get to the next village, you have to climb a mountain, right,
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 4: so you're trapped in your village, and so you have
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 4: to learn to get along with the people around you.
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 4: You can't run away. And so the Japanese culture has
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 4: developed in the sense that you're you always have to
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 4: be aware of the people around you, and that that's
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 4: been passed down into the modern age, and that the
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 4: culture is always one of thinking about others and respect
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 4: from an early age.
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 3: That's what's so fascinating, is like, how come no one
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 3: else figured that out? And also what's really strange is
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 3: Japan itself right now is in the midst of population collapse. Yeah, sadly,
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 3: So that's what sucks. It's like you could lose this
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 3: and it could be overwhelmed by the West, like because
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 3: of the fact that they aren't having enough people to
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 3: reproduce successfully to maintain their population. It could just be
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 3: taken over, like in terms of immigration, like Americans could
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 3: just move there and Europeans can move there, and then
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 3: all the beautiful aspects of this very interesting and very
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 3: unique culture could go away.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 4: And they are really concerned about that. When I was
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 4: first when I first arrived in Japan, like ten years ago,
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 4: I was worked at a university and I was stood
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 4: on campus outside just talking to some one, and I
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 4: saw a couple of like a little at high school students,
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 4: probably on a campus visit. Out of the corner of
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 4: my eye. Japanese high school students and they they caught
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 4: my eye, they saw that I was looking at them,
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 4: and as soon as that happened, they both, like on
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 4: a dime, stopped and bowed to me. And I thought, wow, wow,
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 4: we're not in Kansas anymore, you know, and that having
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 4: that teaching children about respect from a very and training them,
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 4: you know, the idea of respect your elders. This is
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 4: you know, we have this in the West as well,
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 4: but we kind of lost it a little bit, and
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 4: it's kind of drilled into them about respecting the people
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 4: around you and respecting people who are older than you.
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 4: And this probably goes back to the samurai, you know,
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 4: these these hierarchies.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I'm sure.
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 3: Just and then you think about like how crazy feudal
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 3: Japan was and that it eventually evolves to what it
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 3: is now, this incredibly safe society.
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 3: It's really kind of nuts. Do you think about one
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 3: of the most warlike cultures of all time, the culture
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 3: that fought off the Mongols successfully, you know, pretty nuts?
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is, but you see it, You see
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 4: the remnants of that kind of the ancient societal structure,
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 4: even in the language. When you learn Japanese, there are
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 4: several levels of politeness, right, you have so it's really complicated.
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 4: But you have something called kgo, which is kind of
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 4: formal or polite speech. And if you are talking to
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 4: if you are lower down and you're talking to someone
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 4: above you, you have to speak in a different even
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 4: the words that the verbs are different, the words are different,
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 4: and if you're speaking about them, then you have to
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 4: use what's called honorific like you're elevating them. If you're
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 4: talking about someone higher up, you have to elevate them,
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 4: use honorific language. If you're talking about yourself to someone
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 4: who's higher up, you use humble language, so you lower
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 4: yourself down. So it's very difficult, you know, it's still
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 4: I still kind of struggle with it. But and it
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 4: actually causes some problems because it's very difficult for junior
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 4: people to communicate with senior people, to communicate honestly at least,
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 4: so they just get a lot of it like yes, men, yes,
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 4: I agree, ah, yes, I agree with that. You're kind
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 4: of agreeing with everything that the senior person says, and
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 4: that's not a way to make good decisions is by
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 4: just agreeing. And so they have something called communication. So
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 4: this is formed from two words communication of course, plus nomu,
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 4: which is the Japanese word to drink, and they're talking
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 4: about alcohol. So Japan. In Japan, alcohol is king, and
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 4: society is actually lubricated by alcohol and functions because of alcohol.
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 4: They have things called in Japanese companies, they have these
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 4: kind of semi obligatory, you know, semi compulsory events called nomikai,
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 4: which basically translates as drink meetings. You might have heard
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 4: about these. And then basically the senior people and the
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 4: more junior people and they all go together. They'll go
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 4: to a bar with this express purpose of getting drunk,
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 4: not just to like have a drink with your colleagues,
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 4: but to actually get drunk, become intoxicated, and that allows
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 4: more free flowing communication. It allows you to everyone is
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 4: brought to the same kind of level. This is this
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 4: is communication, and so it's facilitated by alcohol. Communication facilitated
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 4: by alcohol. So it's a society that is dependent on
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 4: alcohol in a strong way.
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 3: What is their approach to other drugs? Are even casual
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 3: jokes like marijuana and stuff like that. Are they highly
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 3: illegal over there?
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's complicated. I would say it's weird because Okay,
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 4: so when when it comes to the law, people always say, oh,
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 4: Japan it's got the strictest drug laws in the world.
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 4: First of all, No, it hasn't got to Singapore, you know,
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 4: settled town.
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 4: But when it comes to drugs, cannabis for probably for
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 4: you know, after the Second World War, when I think
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 4: it was MacArthur that was drafting that the Japanese constitution
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 4: and was basically controlling it had it was occupying Japan,
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 4: of course, after the Second World War, and America was
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 4: in the what's that movie called that nineteen fifties moodye weed, madness,
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 4: reef of madness. It was America was in the kind
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 4: of reef of madness phase and they passed that on
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 4: to the Japanese, and the Japanese have never really gotten
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 4: over it. So but and then there's meth, of course,
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 4: I mean meth came from Japan. Meth was invented in Japan.
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 4: It was used during the Second World the kamakr They
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 4: actually used these little green tablets that were called storming tablets.
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 2: Boy.
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 4: They were mixed with green tea and stamped with the
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 4: crest of the Emperor. So they became like sacraments.
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, whooh yeah, see how that worked out, yeah, exactly.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 4: But then at the end of the Second World War,
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 4: when they had stockpiles of these methanphetamin and it started
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 4: to it spilled out into the black market basically, and large,
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 4: very large numbers of people became addicted to meth. And
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 4: they were actually in Osaka in I think about nineteen
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 4: fifty four. I forget the exact year, but in one
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 4: year the police raided I think around fifty meth labs
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 4: in one city, operated by you know, one or two people,
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 4: like mom and pop operation. It's like breaking bad, right,
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 4: you know, like you imagine meth labs in you know,
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 4: Arizona or something. Now, this was happening in Japan in
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties, and it scared the shit out of
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 4: the Japanese government because they were a defeated nation. They
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 4: thought that there were you know, it was the end
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 4: of their civilization, and they thought that meth addiction was
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 4: the symptom it was going to actually perhaps catalyze the
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 4: end of the Japanese It was an existential threat to
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 4: the Japanese civilization. So they hit it hard legally and
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 4: so now when you know Japanese law, they're really focused
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 4: on cannabis because of probably the American influence and meth,
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 4: but psychedelics most people in Japan probably don't know much about.
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 4: There's a psychedelic subculture in Japan. There are ayahuasca circles
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 4: in Japan that operate in a gray area of the law.
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 4: It's not explicitly illegal. It's discouraged, but it's not explicitly illegal.
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 4: I know people who import ayahuasca, wrought aauasca drink from
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 4: the Amazon, and operate iahuasca circles.
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 2: You didn't did you do the DMTX experiments in Japan? No?
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 2: Where did you do them? So?
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 4: Okay, so we're going to get into DMTX.
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So dmt X came from an idea that I
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 4: had in twenty fifteen. I worked with Rick Strasman on this.
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 4: So dmt is kind of unusual. It has these weird
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 4: pharmacological peculiarities. It's as I said before, it doesn't have
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 4: subjective tolerance. So Rick Strasman showed in the nineties that
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 4: you can inject someone with with dmt repeatedly and they
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 4: have the same intensity of effect at each time. But
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 4: it also has another kind of a number of unique peculiarities.
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 4: Of course, it's very very brief, it enters the brain
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 4: extremely rapidly, it's metabolized rapidly and cleared very rapidly. It
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 4: had all of these pharmacological peculiarities, and it occurred to
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 4: me that these were precisely the characteristics you need of
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 4: a drug that's used in anesthesiology. So in anesthesiology, when
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 4: they want to put you to sleep make you unconscious,
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 4: what they don't do. They don't just inject you with
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 4: a drug and kind of hope that it keeps working
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 4: whilst they've got you under the knife. What they do
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 4: is they use a very short acting drug, and they
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 4: use an infusion machine which delivers the drug, the anesthetic
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 4: drug into your veins and goes to your brain and
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 4: holds the brain level of the drug constant over time,
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 4: so that they can keep you in the anesthetized date
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 4: unconscious for as long or short period as they like.
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 4: And so it occurred to me that well, DMT has
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 4: the right drug properties. It's like it's almost like it's
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 4: designed for that kind of technique called it's called target
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 4: controlled intravenous and fusion, and so I thought, you know,
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 4: if we start, if we take the DMT states seriously
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 4: and we treat it as a new world to explore,
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 4: and you know, intelligent beings with whom we can establish
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 4: community relationship, then three minutes of a breakthrough trip is
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 4: nowhere near enough. And so I thought, well, let's take
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 4: this technology from anesthesiology target controlled intravenous infusion and let's
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 4: repurpose it. So instead of an anesthetic drug that's delivered
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 4: by programmed infusion, we instead deliver DMT by programmed infusion
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 4: and induce somebody into the DMT state and stabilize their
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 4: brain DMT levels so you can hold them in the
• 2:22:32
  Speaker 4: DMT state for thirty minutes or potentially for several hours
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 4: and have complete control in real time over the depth
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 4: of the experience. That was the idea. So I worked
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 4: with Rick Strasman. I used his data blood sampling data
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 4: that he acquired in the nineties. He fortunately had this
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 4: old Excel file which he sent to me, and I
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 4: built this mathematical model of dmt's metabolism and distribution throughout
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 4: the body. And then we wrote a paper basically saying
• 2:23:02
  Speaker 4: we think this should work. We think we should be
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 4: able to extend and stabilize the DMT state for many hours,
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 4: but we didn't. Actually, it wasn't kind of human ready
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 4: so to speak, and it actually took about five years
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 4: before it was actually implemented in humans. So that was
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 4: actually done by the Imperial College London team, So they
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 4: were still are in a way the leaders in psychedelic research.
• 2:23:29
  Speaker 4: And a guy called then a PhD student, I think
• 2:23:32
  Speaker 4: Chris Timmerman, worked to make this proof of principal model
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 4: that myself and Rick Strasman had developed and get it
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 4: human ready and actually test, you know, does it actually work.
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 4: Do the predictions that we had myself and Rickstrasman do
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 4: they actually work in humans? And they found out that
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 4: in fact that it does. You can induce somebody into
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 4: the DMT state and you can actually stabilize the experience.
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 4: So rather than just being a oh, Jamie, since I'm
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 4: talking about this, I can show you actually what dmtree
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 4: trips or the kind of the time course of a
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 4: DMT trip looks like over time. So normally what happens
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 4: is the blood level will rise very very rapidly. You
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 4: inject them with the DMT blood levels rise, they reach
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 4: the brain and then almost immediately they start collapsing down
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 4: again exponentially, and that brief period when the brain levels
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 4: high is the breakthrough state. However, when the brain DMT
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 4: levels reach a kind of a peak, you then start
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 4: an infusion. You can basically compensate for the DMT that's
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 4: being lost by metabolism. It's if it like if you
• 2:24:47
  Speaker 4: have a bathtop full of water and you pull the plug,
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 4: the water drains, but if you turn on the taps, yeah,
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 4: you can keep the level constant. And so that's the infusion.
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 4: You stabilize the state. And our hope was that the
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 4: actual experience itself rather than that initial rollercoaster phase that
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 4: you get with DMT where it's all very very disorienting
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 4: and he's like, you know, what's going on? That's for
• 2:25:14
  Speaker 4: most people, that's that's kind of it, and then you
• 2:25:16
  Speaker 4: dragged back out again. But our hope was that actually,
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 4: over time, if you stabilize the DMT in the brain,
• 2:25:22
  Speaker 4: that it would actually stabilize the experience and then people
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 4: can actually navigate and explore the space and even perform
• 2:25:31
  Speaker 4: kind of experiments within the space. And this is what's
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 4: become known as d MT X.
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 2: How was that what did they describe.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 4: Well, so this first study that was done just a
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 4: couple of years ago, as I said, by Imperial College London,
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 4: it was really a it was like a pilot study.
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 4: They wanted to show that it would that it worked,
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 4: and that it was safe, that it was tolerable, that
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 4: people weren't going crazy, you know, they could handle it. Basically,
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 4: the very first person to do it was a guy
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 4: i'm now working with. I work for a nonprofit called
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 4: New Nautics out of Florida, and we're very interested in
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 4: designing experiments using dmt X to actually study the d
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 4: MT space and the intelligence is within them much more
• 2:26:23
  Speaker 4: kind of formally and on the board. I work with
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 4: a guy called Carl Smith who was the very first
• 2:26:27
  Speaker 4: person to undergo d mt X. He was also the
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 4: only person to complete I think there was five sessions
• 2:26:34
  Speaker 4: over several weeks. He was the only one who handled it,
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 4: so to speak, Carl Smith.
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 2: Out to.
• 2:26:44
  Speaker 4: You know. But what's interesting is that the as we
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 4: hoped and predicted the DMT state, it does stabilize. It's
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 4: like the brain is settling into constructing this alternate world model,
• 2:26:57
  Speaker 4: interfacing with this this this intelligence, and he found that
• 2:27:03
  Speaker 4: as he went back, every time he was interacted with
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 4: the same entities, and they became aware of the fact
• 2:27:08
  Speaker 4: that he was coming back so often, and they were like,
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 4: you know what, he not you again? You know you're
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 4: you're you're back.
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 4: And and one time they were scanning him, the Imperial
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 4: team in like a I think like an MRI machine
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 4: or something, and the entities were gathered, all the entities.
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 4: He said, as soon as they started scanning me in
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 4: the quote unquote real world, the entities were gathered and
• 2:27:32
  Speaker 4: they seemed like curious or confused, like what they do? Yeah, right,
• 2:27:38
  Speaker 4: It's like maybe it's the signal or something. Or they
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 4: were like, you know, we're the ones that normally do
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 4: the scanning. You know, we're supposed to scan you. You
• 2:27:46
  Speaker 4: know what's going on here. So there's there's as I said,
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 4: it was just a pilot's study, but there's a real
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 4: taste that you can enter into these these kind of
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 4: relationships with these entities. And actually we as I said,
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 4: I work for this. I'm a board member of this
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 4: nonprofit called New Nautics, and our vision is really to
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 4: design experiments with d mt X, Like what does a
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 4: research organization look like that isn't simply trying to explain
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 4: away DMT explain it, but actually says, Okay, this is
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 4: an uncharted land that's fascinate this inordinately complex and vast
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 4: and filled with intelligences. Let's treat it like that as explorers.
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 4: What does a research organization aimed at studying that look like?
• 2:28:38
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 2:28:38
  Speaker 4: And we imagine, I imagine that you're not just sending
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 4: you know. For example, let's take the structure of the
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 4: DMT space, right, It's this highly complex, geometrically and topologically strange.
• 2:28:56
  Speaker 2: Domain.
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 4: So we send in people who are experts, are mathpetitions.
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 4: We send in a mappetition to study the topology of
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 4: the space, to study how the space is structured. The
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 4: entities they often try to communicate, They use strange symbols
• 2:29:11
  Speaker 4: and strange code. Oh, let's send in a linguist who
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 4: can study their language. And so you're you're sending in
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 4: people with their own specialties to actually formally study the
• 2:29:25
  Speaker 4: d MT space. And what's even better is we now
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 4: have a venue for this. So we're actually we have
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 4: a I work with a company called Eleusis. We have
• 2:29:35
  Speaker 4: a special license from a country in the Caribbean, Saint
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 4: Vincent and the Grenadines, and we are setting up a
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 4: retreats center, stroke research center to provide d MTX that
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 4: is one hundred percent legal, that is safe. You know,
• 2:29:56
  Speaker 4: you've got anesthesiologists, psychiatrists and nursing is a perfect setting
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 4: that's also being designed in part by Carl Smith as well,
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 4: that allows you to perform these kind of research, research
• 2:30:12
  Speaker 4: studies aimed at analyzing and studying the DMT space. But
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 4: even better is it's also going to be open to anyone.
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 4: So if you think about Rick's.
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 2: Hear for the freaks, prepare for the common.
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 4: But like you know, in the nineties, Rick Strasman, he
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 4: did the biggest study of its kind if you only
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 4: had sixty people. So you've got sixty people worth the
• 2:30:33
  Speaker 4: trip report. What happens if you can bring in three hundred,
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 4: four hundred, five hundred people a year.
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 2: How will you avert people to make sure they're not
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 2: crazy before they do it?
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 4: There will be a screening process, of an initial screening process,
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 4: and then ultimately you would have a psychiatrist who would
• 2:30:48
  Speaker 4: sign them off. So it's not just anyone, but anyone
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 4: can in theory, they can sign up. They can go
• 2:30:53
  Speaker 4: to alosismind dot com and they can put their name
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 4: down and sign up to fly to this island better
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 4: Quay I think it's called and in a beautiful, perfect setting,
• 2:31:06
  Speaker 4: spend a week on the island and undergoing a number
• 2:31:09
  Speaker 4: of d MTX sessions and you know, being able to
• 2:31:13
  Speaker 4: explore this world using the d mt X technology. And
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 4: of course they will all be providing trip reports. So
• 2:31:20
  Speaker 4: you start to amass a vast data set of highly
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 4: controlled verify. You know, this isn't this isn't like posting
• 2:31:29
  Speaker 4: online where you don't know what drugs they've taken. Really,
• 2:31:32
  Speaker 4: it's like you know exactly what they've taken. It's pure
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 4: pharmaceutical grade d MT and they will generate this vast
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 4: data set that could be used. We're also working to
• 2:31:45
  Speaker 4: develop an AI powered model that will take in this
• 2:31:53
  Speaker 4: verbal data and in real time generate imagery. So someone
• 2:31:57
  Speaker 4: can talk to the model, the AI model, and it
• 2:32:01
  Speaker 4: will generate the image. And then you say, oh no,
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 4: this isn't quite right. This needs to be more like this,
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 4: And so you're converging.
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 2: On the you're making a map of the territory.
• 2:32:09
  Speaker 4: You're may making a map of the territory, and so
• 2:32:11
  Speaker 4: you end up with this vast library not just of
• 2:32:14
  Speaker 4: textual trip reports, but also of imagery.
• 2:32:19
  Speaker 2: And this is available now, it will.
• 2:32:21
  Speaker 4: It's opening, we're kind of we're building it. It's being
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 4: developed now. It should be open officially on March first
• 2:32:27
  Speaker 4: next year. So go to lusismind dot com.
• 2:32:31
  Speaker 2: That soon you can sign up. Soon, just enough time
• 2:32:33
  Speaker 2: for people to prepare.
• 2:32:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it will be the first, I mean, it's
• 2:32:37
  Speaker 4: gonna be the first of its kind, you know, a
• 2:32:39
  Speaker 4: totally legal, safe, medically supervised location where people can endure,
• 2:32:46
  Speaker 4: I say, enjoy, can experience.
• 2:32:48
  Speaker 3: That's the thing about these ancient civilizations, whether it's Egypt
• 2:32:53
  Speaker 3: or whether it's ancient Greece where Ulysses was from, they
• 2:33:00
  Speaker 3: all were using psychedelics. There's evidence of psychedelics and all
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 3: of these ancient civilizations. It's just our completely twisted six
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 3: society that's decided that the most beneficial drugs should be
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 3: the ones that are the most illegal yep, which is
• 2:33:17
  Speaker 3: and you lump them in with the ones that destroy lives.
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 3: They're categorized with meth, which is completely insane and the
• 2:33:25
  Speaker 3: sign of a twisted sick culture. It's the sign of
• 2:33:29
  Speaker 3: what McKenna was talking about with the chaos, the chaos
• 2:33:33
  Speaker 3: of a species that's preparing to leave for the stars.
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. But things are changing. You do
• 2:33:40
  Speaker 4: see positive change the Internet, the attitude, the psychics.
• 2:33:45
  Speaker 3: You'll understand it now. And I think there's also a
• 2:33:48
  Speaker 3: giant shift towards people on the right accepting it because
• 2:33:52
  Speaker 3: so many soldiers have come back from war and used
• 2:33:55
  Speaker 3: it and had great benefits.
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 4: Precisely. Yeah, facts, Perhaps things aren't as bad as things
• 2:34:03
  Speaker 4: in some ways are getting better. They're getting worse in
• 2:34:05
  Speaker 4: other ways for the getting.
• 2:34:06
  Speaker 2: Better in other days they're moving.
• 2:34:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, that's it. And I think you need bad
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 3: in order to inspire good. That's unfortunate, but I think
• 2:34:13
  Speaker 3: that's just historically that's always been the way that we
• 2:34:17
  Speaker 3: figure things out. Yeah, I agree, Andrew, so much fun.
• 2:34:21
  Speaker 3: I really enjoy this. Let's do it again. Let's do
• 2:34:24
  Speaker 3: it again when the place is open, you get are
• 2:34:28
  Speaker 3: you interested in doing? Allegedly we'll talk off air. But
• 2:34:33
  Speaker 3: this book that you wrote is available now, Death by Astonishment.
• 2:34:38
  Speaker 2: Is it an audio form as well? Yeah? Read by myself, beautiful,
• 2:34:42
  Speaker 2: great voice for it.
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 3: Person, so happy that you read. I'd love when authors
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 3: read their own work. It's so important.
• 2:34:48
  Speaker 4: I think they wanted to get an action because I
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 4: was in.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 2: You get some Weirdoh it doesn't know what he's talking
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: about exactly. Yeah, I know you need you. Thank you
• 2:34:59
  Speaker 2: very much man, fust I enjoy it. My BA, my brother,