Latest / The Hannah Hammond Show / How to Choose the Right Lender for a Commercial Real Estate Deal

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How to Choose the Right Lender for a Commercial Real Estate Deal · The Hannah Hammond Show

0:00
There's a lot of devil in the details.
0:03
I recently experienced with a client, this one lender, they
0:06
said, OK, we will do this loan. Here's the term sheet.
0:09
And it was very, very lengthy, very risky.
0:13
I was like, I don't really feel confident about this lender.
0:16
I hadn't worked with this lender before.
0:17
I was very transparent with the client, like this seems like a
0:20
shark. He ultimately decided to move
0:22
forward with the loan and it was a total nightmare.
0:25
Really know who you're working with, have those relationships
0:30
with quality lenders that you know are going to actually
0:32
execute. You know how they operate.
0:34
You know, they have a good reputation as a real estate
0:36
investor. I was always so intimidated by
0:40
the financing piece of it. And it made me hesitant to want
0:43
to even do it because I'm like, ah, I have to deal with these
0:46
banks and these credit unions and how do I know who to go to?
0:49
And so there was always like this financing piece that I
0:52
didn't really fully understand. That was the problem that I
0:54
really wanted to solve and and am solving.
0:57
What was the red flag that you now look for in other lenders
1:01
when you are building a new relationship?
1:03
It's what you don't know that gets you in trouble.
1:05
And I know that I'm young. I know most people like who is
1:07
this girl talking about commercial real estate finance?
1:09
Like she's a young blonde female and a good old boy, male
1:12
dominated world, massive conglomerate.
1:15
But I lean on who, not how. If I want to be the best, I have
1:19
to partner with the best. That was the first thing.
1:22
The second thing is. What's up?
1:25
And welcome back to the Hannah Hammond Show.
1:26
We got Hannah Hammond and we're just going to go into the
1:30
powerful impact that she's having in CRE, which is
1:34
commercial real estate lending. And there's so much you're doing
1:36
there. There's so much innovation that
1:38
you've brought to the marketplace.
1:39
And I know you're solving so many problems.
1:41
And I want to give people basically the secret scoop of
1:45
the best ways to go into this type of lending and some of the
1:49
problems that you're solving because I think it's going to
1:51
help a lot of people. So when it came to HP Capital,
1:56
like what made you want to transition into that from like
1:59
the real estate brokerage that you had originally?
2:00
Like what was the opportunity you saw there?
2:04
But also what was the problem that you wanted to solve that
2:06
maybe you saw? Maybe it was just other people
2:09
not prioritizing the relationship?
2:11
Like what was it that you wanted to enter that market and fix?
2:15
So as a real estate investor, I was always so intimidated by the
2:19
financing piece of it. And it made me hesitant to want
2:23
to even do it because I'm like, I have to deal with these banks
2:27
and these credit unions and how do I know who to go to?
2:29
And how do I know what they're looking for?
2:31
And how do I get a deal under contract if I don't really know
2:34
the financing in place, but I can't really get the financing
2:36
until they underwrite the deal. And you know, what if I don't
2:39
have the income to qualify for it as a younger investor, what,
2:43
what do I need to know in this space?
2:45
Like how do I really execute on my dream of having a large
2:49
commercial real estate portfolio, helping people create
2:52
and live their best lives through real estate investing,
2:54
take advantage of all the tax advantages and in all those
2:57
things and make it easy and seamless.
2:59
So I could focus on what I did best and let other people focus
3:04
on the rest. And what I didn't do best, which
3:06
that, that I just kind of dove into the thing I was afraid of.
3:09
And I the thing I was afraid of was financing and how to really
3:12
get the capital for the projects, whether it was the,
3:16
the debt side, which is, you know, the lending side or the
3:18
equity side, which is your JV, Co GP or capital raising side on
3:24
equity. And so that was kind of the
3:25
problem that I wanted to solve for myself.
3:27
And I got into real estate investing at 18 years old,
3:31
started as a commercial real estate broker, still am a
3:34
commercial real estate broker owner and designated broker of
3:36
the firm here in Arizona. And then along the way, I was
3:40
investing in real estate while I was helping other people invest
3:43
in real estate on their own. And so there was always like
3:46
this financing piece that I didn't really fully understand.
3:50
I understood, you know, the, the deal, the underwriting of the
3:53
deal, the income of the deal, the cap rate of the deal, the
3:56
real estate broker side of the transaction.
3:59
And then there was always just the lender that I was working
4:01
with. And it was always kind of
4:02
complicated and complex. And I wanted to dive into that
4:05
and make it an easier, more seamless process and really make
4:10
sure that my clients were getting the best loan product
4:13
they could. And also knew all the different
4:16
loan products they could without having to reach out to 7000
4:20
different banks and try to build relationships with all these
4:22
different banks And try to really understand what they
4:25
wanted to lend on, what their underwriting criteria was and
4:28
how that was shifting over time. Because what one bank might see
4:32
as a deal that they wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole,
4:35
another bank or life insurance company or credit union or debt
4:38
fund might be like, hey, this is the perfect deal for us.
4:41
We would love to lend on this. And sometimes it might take 100
4:44
lenders going through 100 lenders to really find that out.
4:47
And it's just not realistic to be able to do that type of
4:51
research and have those kind of relationships.
4:53
If you are the investor that's also sourcing the deals,
4:57
managing the projects, you know, running your construction teams,
5:00
leasing up the deals, selling the deals and all the things.
5:03
And that was the problem that I really wanted to solve and and
5:06
am solving and still wanting to continue to solve with HP
5:10
Capital. So good.
5:11
I'm sure there's so many mistakes you've made, but the
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mistakes are what make you more of an asset, especially when you
5:16
learn from them. What would you say was like a
5:19
story about like an area where you did make a mistake that
5:22
you've learned from and now you could like share that mistake
5:25
with people and you're like, hey, don't do this if you're
5:28
going to go and try and get lending because XYZ will happen.
5:31
You have any sort of those stories that have really helped
5:34
you and now helps your clients now that you have this post
5:37
knowledge? Yeah.
5:38
So the first one is know who is doing the loan, you know, or if
5:44
you're raising equity, who your partner is on that because
5:48
there's a lot of devil in the details.
5:51
And I recently experienced with a client he was going to, we got
5:57
a term sheet from a debt fund. It was a very complicated loan.
6:00
Like 100 lenders said, no, we, we don't want to do it as land.
6:04
A lot of lenders don't like lending on land because it
6:06
doesn't cash flow and it's hard to sell and hard to value and
6:09
all these things, right? So this one lender, they said,
6:12
OK, we will do this loan. Here's the term sheet.
6:15
And they sent the loan commitment and it was very, very
6:19
lengthy, very extensive, very risky.
6:22
And so I was like, I don't really feel confident about this
6:27
lender. I haven't worked with this
6:28
lender before. I was very transparent with the
6:30
client, like this seems like a shark.
6:33
And this seems like a very litigious, litigious lender.
6:37
And I probably wouldn't go forward with this loan, but he
6:40
had his attorney review it. And, you know, I made sure he
6:42
had an attorney involved because it was, you know, far on my pay
6:46
grade as far as like the legality of it.
6:48
And he ultimately decided to move forward with the loan And
6:52
it was a total nightmare. And that it was just like
6:55
attorneys back and forth for months and months and months.
6:58
And the amount of, you know, as a lender, they kind of have all
7:03
the say. And he had, they requested a
7:05
very large commitment fee, like hundreds of thousands of dollars
7:10
of commitment fee that's non refundable.
7:12
And ultimately they did get to the finish line and there was
7:17
this whole thing. But anyway, that was a big
7:19
thing. It's just like really know who
7:21
you're working with and have those relationships with quality
7:26
lenders that you know, we're going to actually execute, you
7:28
know how they operate. You know, they have a good
7:30
reputation. And I was in this kind of
7:33
challenging position because I knew I hadn't worked with them
7:36
before and I knew they didn't have a good reputation.
7:38
But the client ultimately still wanted to go with them because
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it was kind of his only option at the time.
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And it, it wasn't a very comfortable feeling for me.
7:46
So that's why I really love to work on building really strong
7:50
relationships with various different lenders and you know,
7:54
like our executive managing director and partner at HP
7:57
Capital, he's been a top producing commercial mortgage
7:59
broker for almost 27 years. He's done billions and billions
8:02
of dollars of loans and he has amazing lender relationships
8:07
that he can get things done that you're not going to get done if
8:11
you go walk into that bank. You know, and like he can
8:14
because of the business and because the relationship that he
8:17
has with these lenders, he can make things happen like pull
8:20
strings, make timelines happen, negotiate term streets.
8:23
That's another thing is like you can actually negotiate a term
8:27
sheet that the lender proposes. You don't just have to accept
8:30
it. You can try to work some things
8:31
out or try to get the rate down if you deposit some money or try
8:34
to have a carve out on the personal guarantee like dot,
8:37
lots of different strategies that when I was first an
8:41
investor, I didn't know that I could negotiate with the lender.
8:44
So that's something just the value of the relationship
8:47
because it's so, so, so important to really like in a
8:51
sense know who you're getting into bed with because they're
8:54
technically your partner at that point, like they have control
8:57
over the asset. So much control.
8:59
What was it like with that lender that raised a red flag
9:02
for you of like this could be a shark?
9:04
Was it just that they were overcomplicating the contractor,
9:06
the terms was there just how they were conducting business
9:09
and communicating? Like what was the red flag that
9:12
you now look for in other lenders when you are building a
9:15
new relationship? Super high loan commitment fee
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that's non refundable. That was the first one, very,
9:23
very, very, very lengthy and extensive and demanding
9:28
commitment, loan commitment that didn't leave a lot of options
9:32
for the borrower to have any sort of protection.
9:35
And then just their reputation online, the reputation that we
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hear from other brokers in the business and other lenders in
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the business. And just like these people don't
9:46
have a good reputation and they really like to take people's
9:48
fees and not actually close loans and then make it very
9:51
difficult to close loans. So those are some of the red
9:54
flags. And then we have to decide, is
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this something that we even want to present as an option moving
10:01
forward? I would never present that
10:03
lender again. Even though I was very
10:04
transparent about the risks that I saw with the lender, I still
10:09
in a way thought that, you know, my client is looking to get this
10:12
loan. And if he knows his risks and he
10:14
wants to move forward and there's transparency there, then
10:16
it might be something that would work out well for him.
10:19
But moving forward, I would probably just completely opt out
10:22
of even like introducing him to that lender because they're just
10:27
not aligned with the integrity of what we do and and how we
10:30
operate as a company A. 100% just makes your life harder, it
10:34
gives you now a bad reputation and it just effects both parties
10:38
in a negative way instead of becoming a win win.
10:40
Yeah except yeah. So I guess with like how you're
10:45
doing business, like where do you feel like you're creating
10:47
better innovation? Like whether it's like the
10:49
software AI tools you're using, like, how is it that you're like
10:53
really standing out against, you know, other similar companies
10:56
who are competing with you? Yeah.
10:58
So partnering up with somebody who's been a top producing
11:02
commercial mortgage broker, you know, on the debt and equity
11:05
side for almost as long as I've been alive was a big one because
11:10
it's what you don't know that gets you in trouble.
11:12
And I know that I'm young. I know most people like who is
11:14
this girl talking about commercial real estate finance?
11:17
Like she's a young blonde female and a good old boy, male
11:20
dominated world, massive conglomerate, you know,
11:24
companies that are competing with us in this world.
11:27
But I lean on who not how, you know, and I under I've been in
11:32
real estate eleven years in commercial real estate.
11:34
I understand how it works. I know that I don't have the 30
11:39
years or 50 years or any of that amount of experience.
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You know, I'm about 5 years in the lending space, which started
11:46
from launching my own private lending firm with my own money.
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So I made some serious mistakes there too, that I actually was
11:52
the lender. I wasn't just getting a
11:55
Commission for helping navigate the dealer, find the right
11:57
lender. I was lending my own capital.
11:59
And I really learned quickly, like how to underwrite a deal
12:03
and what to look for and what the red flags are because I gave
12:07
out about a bunch of bad loans on bad assets, bad borrowers,
12:10
bad credit, not solid underwriting, like not really
12:15
looking at the financials, not really having good surveys or
12:20
appraisals or any of that stuff, right?
12:22
So I made all those mistakes, which helps me now as an owner
12:26
of a capital advisory firm, but leaning on that relationship and
12:30
his team and his experience and understanding, like, if I want
12:33
to be the best, I have to partner with the best.
12:35
That was the first thing. The second thing is 1 finding a
12:40
partner who has his skills are not mine and my skills are not
12:45
his. And so being able to come
12:46
together and build a team of all the skills and I fill in where
12:52
other people on the team lack and they fill in where I lack.
12:55
And we all kind of have our lane and our unique gifts and
12:58
abilities. Something that I'm very good at
13:01
is technology. I'm very good at systems, you
13:03
know, I as systems engineer and industrial engineer and so
13:07
business efficiency, eliminating waste in a process, eliminating
13:11
unnecessary steps in a process, optimizing the outcome, the
13:16
output, the quality of the output has something that I'm
13:19
really good at and then implementing technology.
13:21
And so I've been on the cutting edge of AI, like diving into AI.
13:24
We were talking about this last time as I really want to hire a
13:27
chief of AI immediately, if not sooner.
13:31
If anybody's watching this that wants to be our chief of AI, let
13:34
me know or director of AI. And one of the edges we have at
13:39
HP Capital that a lot of our large competitors don't have,
13:44
like CBRE would be a big competitor of ours, JLL North,
13:48
Mark Walker and Dunlap, all these, some of them are multi
13:52
billion dollar firms and they are so big that they just can't
13:58
be as nimble and quick to adopt some of these new technologies
14:01
as we can. And there's abundance in the
14:03
world. Like there's always enough debt
14:05
to business to go around. Like the commercial real estate
14:09
market is like massive. It's so massive.
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It's I don't know what the the market cap is, but it's very
14:16
big. And anyway, So what we did is we
14:23
brought in an AI driven software that basically has our entire
14:29
database of all of our lender relationships in it, like over
14:32
7000 lenders. It knows all their underwriting
14:34
criteria. It knows every single loan
14:36
they're closing. It knows what deals they like,
14:38
what deals they don't like, what volume they like, where they
14:40
lend, what type of loans they do.
14:43
And these are lenders that, you know, my partner has built up
14:47
over his 30 year career and all his team has built up over all
14:50
of their careers. And other people at the company
14:53
have built as well as lenders that we've gathered from systems
14:58
like from technology to be able to go out there and search.
15:00
Who are the lenders both on the debt and equity side in the
15:02
marketplace? What are their underwriting
15:04
criteria? How can we start to build these
15:06
relationships with them, understand how they work?
15:08
And so it also helps us basically create a deal room for
15:13
each opportunity. So when a client comes to us and
15:15
said, hey, we're doing this retail shopping center
15:19
development project in, let's just say Arizona, cuz that's
15:22
where we're at right now in Arizona.
15:25
We want you to help us finance the property, get the best
15:27
financing. Well, now our job is to make
15:29
that process as seamless, as quick and as easy as possible
15:34
and for them to get the absolute best rate in terms as they
15:37
possibly can for that project. And each project has so many
15:41
nuances. Different things are important
15:44
to different people and for different projects.
15:46
So you might say it's very important.
15:50
I don't sign a personal guarantee.
15:51
I'm not comfortable with it. I do not want to sign a personal
15:53
guarantee. And you're like, but I'm willing
15:56
to put more money down because I understand there's more risk for
15:59
the lender. Great.
16:00
So we're going to use this software and use our
16:02
relationships to know what lenders are going to be a good
16:05
fit for you based on what your goals are for that project.
16:09
Yeah. And then we might have another
16:10
client that's like all signed personal guarantees all day
16:12
long. I already have 400 million
16:14
personal personally guaranteed. Like what's another 20 million
16:18
And we just want the Max LTV, the Max loan to value.
16:22
We want as much debt coverage on this as we can get.
16:25
Great. We're going to go out there and
16:26
we're going to find the lender that is OK with personal
16:28
guarantee and they're going to give the Max debt coverage.
16:30
And so if they didn't work with us and the value that we really
16:34
provide is that investor or that developer, instead of using
16:41
their unique gift and their highest and best use of time to
16:45
source deals, manage projects, lease up deals, sell deals, all
16:48
the deal things that that their gift is in.
16:51
And they're spending all their time trying to go find the one
16:55
out of these 10,000 different lenders that could potentially
17:00
be a good fit for the deal or the best fit for the deal.
17:03
That's going to take them a lot of time.
17:05
They're not going to be able to build those relationships that
17:07
quickly. And it's not the best use of
17:10
their time. And there's opportunity cost
17:11
because now their time is being spent trying to find financing
17:14
instead of looking for more deals or making sure that this
17:17
project is going well and running smooth and that they're
17:19
going to maximize their potential profit on the deal.
17:22
And so that's one thing. And we see a lot of a big
17:26
mistake we see a lot of investors and developers make is
17:30
they just go to the same bank all the time because it's easy.
17:33
It's the path of least resistance, right?
17:35
The bank has the file, they know the, the, they have the
17:37
financials, they have the balance sheet, they, they have
17:40
the deal, they have everything and they've already have the
17:42
relationship. And so they just keep lending
17:44
with that bank or borrowing from that bank rather.
17:48
But they have no idea what other banks out there out of the
17:52
thousands and thousands and thousands of banks might be
17:55
like, actually, we'll lend you more money.
17:56
We won't do a personal guarantee.
17:59
And we're going to give you a rate that's 200 basis points
18:02
lower. And when you add those numbers
18:05
into a project, I mean we could be talking hundreds of
18:08
thousands, we could be talking millions or 10s of billions
18:11
depending on the scope of the project like you know some of
18:14
these projects people do or in the billions.
18:16
So these little numbers if it's a 5% rate versus a 7% rate that
18:22
adds up especially if you have a long term loan.
18:26
Yeah. So those are those are some of
18:28
the keys. So our job is to really automate
18:30
the process, really understand all the options out there for
18:33
our clients and it could be various different asset classes
18:37
in different stages of the deal. So like, let's say you found a
18:42
distressed a retail center or storage facility that's in
18:47
default and that it's, you know, about to be in pre foreclosure.
18:51
The bank has this defaulted note and the bank wants to sell the
18:54
asset at the discount. You have someone with the
18:56
relationship or you know, your mortgage broker knows the
18:59
relationship and knows what you're looking for and brings
19:02
that opportunity to you. And there could be a couple
19:05
options on this deal. Either a, we could try to
19:08
negotiate with that bank to extend the loan and allow you
19:12
time to get it performing, or you could also, we could find a
19:16
debt fund or a private investor to give you a bridge loan on
19:20
that property, which is going to be a higher interest rate.
19:23
But generally, you know, it may or may not be personally
19:26
guaranteed depending on the the fund.
19:28
But basically they're going to provide you quick capital to
19:31
take advantage of getting that deal at a lower price and
19:34
getting a big discount on the deal.
19:36
So let's say if we're doing a bridge loan with a debt fund, it
19:40
may be a 12% rate for a 12 or 18 month term.
19:45
So you're paying a higher interest rate, but you're able
19:47
to take down that property, you're able to add value to it,
19:51
get it stabilized, get it repositioned.
19:53
And then we can go to another lender, whether a bank or credit
19:57
union or life insurance company, CMBS, anything like that.
20:01
And then get you a loan into permanent financing and make
20:04
sure you're getting the best rate in terms there maybe at a 5
20:07
1/2 or 6 or 6 1/2 percent rate just depending on the deal and
20:10
where we're at. So that's kind of where we come
20:12
in is having. Those different relationships to
20:14
be able to get different loan products for different phases of
20:17
the deal, yeah. So just having that flexibility
20:21
and that ability to use financing to weather storms and
20:26
to take advantage of opportunities is a big value
20:29
that we provide. 100% And the most valuable thing out of all
20:32
of that, which ties it all together, is how much time you
20:34
save people. It's just the crazy amount of
20:37
time people spend on the research and like making sure
20:40
they're going with the right lender.
20:41
Like what a nightmare. So the fact that you're able to
20:44
do that and you're innovating the technology to save that time
20:46
as well is insane. Like for you, like what do you
20:50
feel like is one of the best opportunities?
20:51
Like if somebody's trying to look for the right asset class,
20:55
like what do you think is like one of the best asset classes
20:59
personally to you based on what you've seen in your industry?
21:02
I think investors can really win in every asset class.
21:05
Now with that said, it comes down to your experience and your
21:11
relationships is super, super key.
21:14
If you have been a storage facility developer and investor
21:16
for 25 years, probably doesn't make sense to jump into office
21:21
25 years later, right? Like you have all the expertise,
21:24
you have knowledge, you have an edge, you have a big edge.
21:27
And so leaning into like where you're already an expert, I
21:30
think is always a good thing. But that's not to say that
21:33
there's never a time to shift and pivot into a different
21:36
sector asset class. And then with that, different
21:40
asset classes have different opportunities.
21:42
For instance, office, it's the most distressed asset class.
21:46
Defaults are at CMBS, which is commercial mortgage-backed
21:49
securities. Those are hovering around 10%
21:52
nationally right now. I think they're economist.
21:56
I think it was the economist I was listening to on the podcast
21:58
for CMBS. He said he wouldn't be surprised
22:00
if they hit 20% defaults by the end of the year.
22:02
So you might say asset class or Office is the worst asset class
22:07
to be in. Or you might say Office is the
22:11
biggest opportunity. Fags.
22:13
So it kind of depends, right? It is the worst asset class
22:17
right now as far as performance goes.
22:21
However, it is the biggest opportunity as far as getting a
22:24
big discount goes. You know, we're seeing some
22:26
office buildings trade at 50 to $0.60 on the dollar for like
22:30
land value and these can be converted or repositioned or
22:35
scraped, you know, and a different asset class rebuilt
22:39
like a mixed-use or retail or Co living is a big thing popping
22:43
up. So it really just depends.
22:44
But overall like office is a very challenged sector right
22:48
now. Industrial is very strong,
22:51
especially with near shoring or onshoring coming back and the AI
22:55
revolution and the need for big, big, big, big, big power
22:58
centers, data centers, industrial is strong.
23:02
Storage is still a very strong asset class, although we are
23:05
seeing some over saturation in certain markets that we're a
23:09
little bit overbuilt, a lot of supply hits.
23:11
So it, you know, it can become very market, it is very market
23:15
specific, even micro market specific like downtown Phoenix
23:19
might be really struggling in multifamily, but Scottsdale
23:22
might be doing really well in multifamily.
23:24
And it kind of comes down to supply and demand and absorption
23:27
rates and all that stuff. So it's very specific.
23:30
But I like retail has actually done really well since COVID.
23:35
Vacancy rates are down to 4.5% nationally, which is really good
23:39
because during COVID a lot of people stopped developing retail
23:43
and there's a need for really nice like experience based power
23:46
centers out there. And so I think you really can
23:49
win in all of them. And it ultimately comes down to
23:52
supply and demand. Yeah, 100%.
23:55
That's so good. The amount, the time you save
23:57
and just like the amount that you can maximize in terms of the
24:01
ROI is insane. If somebody wanted to get a hold
24:05
of you or ask some questions or learn about what you might do in
24:10
their shoes, what's the best way for them to like reach out to
24:13
you or learn more about HB Capital?
24:16
Yeah. So our website is HB
24:17
capitalre.com or you can DM me on LinkedIn, Hannah Hammond on
24:24
Instagram, Facebook, any of those things, but just go to the
24:27
website. You can fill out a form, Phil,
24:29
or you can e-mail me directly at hannah.hanah@hbcapitalre.com.
24:37
Wow, thank you so much for sharing all that.
24:40
That was gold, Hannah. Thank you.
24:42
Just like your presidential. Exciting, yeah.
24:44
Which means she knows what she's talking about, yeah.
24:46
I don't know about that. I know she's humble, too.
24:48
Yeah. It's exciting.
24:49
You know, everyone loves to talk about commercial real estate,
24:52
finance, about the most boring topic ever.
24:55
Yeah. But I think it's exciting
24:57
because there's just so much creativity.
24:59
And something that I value so much and have been really great
25:02
at in my life has been relationships, because I truly
25:05
love people. I love working with amazing
25:08
people. I love connecting amazing
25:09
people. And so I really value trying to
25:12
be that end to end solution for investors, whether they need
25:15
financing, whether they need equity capital or whether
25:18
they're looking for off market properties.
25:20
And those types of opportunities is just how can I connect them
25:23
with my network? And I have an amazing network
25:25
that I've built over time through masterminds and teaching
25:29
and talking and podcasting and doing business.
25:32
And so really, if I could ever be a resource for anything, even
25:35
if it's not directly you need a loan on your commercial
25:38
property, let me know and I'm happy to connect you with
25:40
whoever can help. Yeah, you're the great
25:42
connector, by the way, in the book The Go Giver, which you've
25:46
got to read sometime. Have you?
25:47
It's one of my favorites. Yeah, the connector, the
25:49
connector was the most valuable person out of everybody.
25:52
And so if you need connections or, you know, lending, Hannah's
25:57
your girl. Thanks so much for being on
25:59
Hannah. Thank you.