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Lean Into Legacy - Three Years After the Uniform_ Who Are You When the Mission Changes · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

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Where our veterans voices are heard MBR talk Hey folks, thanks
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for tuning in. You're giving veterans a voice
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today. Powered by Work Simple, where we
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simplify your mission. Find us on the web at MB Radio
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dot. Catch me every military Monday
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night at 8:00 PM Eastern for Lean Into Legacy.
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Well, hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to Lean Into Legacy
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with JJ. I'm your host, JJ, and we love
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to have conversations here about leadership, purpose, transition,
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and the kind of legacy we are building along the way.
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Today's conversation is 1 I have really been looking forward to
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because it's very personal to me and my guest for a few reasons
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#1 because he actually was my coach, and #2 because both he
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and I are three years out from the time that we retired from
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the military. And that creates a very
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different perspective than we had when we first were preparing
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to take off the uniform. My guest today is Doctor Tony
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Cirilla. Tony is a retired Army leader
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who served for 23 years. He has LED in complex, high
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stakes environments and he's worked alongside senior leaders
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from more than 40 different nations since leaving the
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military doctor Tony Cirilla, he's had he has built a second
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chapter as an executive coach and facilitator.
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And during those in that wearing those hats, he actually helps
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leaders to strengthen self-awareness, navigate change
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and step into bigger roles and do that with even greater
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clarity and more effectiveness. Tony is an ICF professional
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certified coach. He has more than 900 hours of
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coaching experience, and he also holds a doctorate in
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organizational change and leadership.
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Tony, welcome. It's an absolute pleasure to be
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with you. Thank you for that very, very
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long introduction. So.
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Yeah. Well, you know, we have to give
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credit where credit is due and I think it just helps our guests
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to understand the the level of experience that you bring to the
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table. You know, I think your many
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years of military service are interesting in and of
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themselves, but also just being a coach is amazing.
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But then when you think about all the life experience that you
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have it, it just makes for an exciting conversation.
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It does and I can like I'm even, I'm rewinding where like the
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conversation we're just having now.
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And one of the traits that I struggle with in the Army and
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after the Army is kind of excessive humility and self
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deprecating humor. And so it still shows up for me
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now. Well then, I feel honored that I
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get to be the one to highlight you.
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Thank you. Yeah.
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So Tony, I'd love to start by asking you to take me back to
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the moment if there was like a moment when you realize that
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your military career was really over and you realized it's time
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to move on, to really move on. Oh, I, I remember so I remember
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that the moment that marked the beginning.
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So from 2013 to 2016, I had served my time as a, in my last
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three years of being a major in South Korea.
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And I'd done all the hard jobs that the Army asked me to do
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the, the KD jobs and I'd done them well.
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And all the evals have said as much.
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And so in the Army, there's this cycle or what you make
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Lieutenant Colonel, you put your hat in the ring for battalion
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command, OO5 level command. And I, I had told myself I had
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internalized this message that years ago, decades passed, that
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that was success. I as a human, as an officer, as
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a leader, I needed to command a battalion or more to be a
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leader, to, to truly have arrived.
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And so the first results come out for the, the CSLI think it's
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called command slate list. I think it's what it's aimed
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for. And so the first time I've done
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all the work, got all the E lists.
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And the first time the list comes out, I get picked as an
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alternate and for lack of a better for for to not have a
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longer explanation. Alternate means good enough, but
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not quite. And so je JA like I would.
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I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't crushed.
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I'd done all the work and the Army said it just wasn't enough.
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And so I was, I was pissed off, angry for about a solid week.
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And then I said OK. And then I called my branch
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manager. I said, hey, am I going to get
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activated? Could I become a primary?
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And in short, they said unlikely.
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And so I was like, OK, And so I got over that.
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I got over all those kind of service level emotions and I was
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like, OK, what does this mean? What could I do next?
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That was the beginning. I started to realize this, this
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ride, this journey was going to end and I was not going to be
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playing on me forever. And that, that was the beginning
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of me stepping away, you know? So I think so many people can
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relate to that, Tony, because all of us have dreams, all of us
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have ambitions. There are things that some of us
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have been dreaming for a very long time.
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And so it's almost like we have this expectation that it's going
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to happen and we turn away from any other idea because we're so
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engrossed in that dream. And I can relate to that, like,
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same, same feeling, Tony. And for me it was, it was the
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same thing in terms of, you know, getting promoted to
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Lieutenant Colonel. I didn't actually go to the
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board. But realistically, we know if
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we're competitive or not. And I knew I was not as
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competitive as competitive as Branch was telling me I needed
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to be. But for me, you know, I hadn't
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invested as much time as you, but it still hurt.
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Yeah, it's. It's still really hurt.
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I was, yes, and I was still holding on to a story that
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defined my personal and professional success as
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something that was at that point 1520 years ago or old.
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And so I hadn't re evaluated it. I had kept, I kept playing the
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game. I was in the system and it's I
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had to have that moment in order to re evaluate what was enough
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and what was success for me in the Army.
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Oh, there's so much we can talk about here.
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I want to bring in some of the coaching stuff because I love
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the benefits of working with a coach.
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I think it's so phenomenal. To me, it's it's very similar to
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working with a therapist. Now there are obviously some
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significant differences, but in terms of life and self
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improvement and mind improvement and body and spirit improvement,
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we just kind of approach it at different angles.
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But when you're able to work with a coach, a coach is able to
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help you to see the bigger picture.
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And so you've explained your experience, Tony, I'm wondering
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if we have a listener right now and I'd love to to know who's
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watching and listening right now.
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You know, would would love to have you in the comments, but
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I'd love to know your advice, Tony, for someone who's
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listening right now. And it's in the same situation.
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They had their hearts set on something.
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Maybe they got fired from their job, maybe they were planning on
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getting married and it didn't happen.
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You know, there's so many different scenarios.
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But as a coach, you know, what do you think is important for
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people to work through when a situation like this happens?
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The simplest definition of coaching I've heard is a
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sentence. Is is in a sentence.
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It's questions that lead to awareness, that lead to action.
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That's coaching, coaching and a sentence.
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And so when you sit down with a coach, either in person or
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virtually, the idea is that they're creating a space for you
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to slow down. And who doesn't need a place to
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slow down and disconnect from your personal and professional
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world and talk to someone who's probably not in that bubble, but
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have that relative stranger. And they're going to ask you
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questions about like you described the emotions that
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you're going through having lost a job or a relationship that you
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thought was going to be forever that that didn't turn out to be.
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And it, it, you know, to your point, it's not therapy, It's
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not going to, it's not really a heal.
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It's not set with a healing agenda.
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It is designed to help you learn more through inquiry, through
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curiosity. And then you decide, OK, in a
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coaching session or a series of coaching sessions, what do I do
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with this? Do I see some new perspectives?
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Do I need to set something down that I've held on to really
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tightly for years or decades? And it may not be, you may not
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solve the problem, but you in that discussion, in that
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session, you may have gained a bit more perspective, learn more
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about yourself. And then kind of to the core,
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what's behind this feeling, this emotion sensation, this
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disappointment that you're feeling and you've suffered
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through something like that? So let's say that we've got a
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listener right now and they're actually going through the same
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exact thing. They just got the news that
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they're holding on to that story and they're struggling because
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that story is still so real to them.
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What kind of question would you ask them to help them get better
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perspective? Well, I would sit, I would, I
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would start with an affirmation. And, and by that I mean
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affirming the feelings that they're having because they're
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real. Like you're, you're, you're
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suffering through something. You've wanted this goal, this
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thing, and it's not going to happen for whatever the reasons
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are. So I would start with affirming
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and, and recognizing that what you're feeling is real.
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And then through some very curious questions like what's
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behind that or what do you want? Or, and that's so that's such a
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simple and lovely question. What do you want and potentially
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other questions about what are you learning from this?
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What do you see? What could be gained from this?
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What's new, what's different? So those are a bunch of really
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short questions and really simple and intentionally quite
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open and vague. So you're not giving someone a
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yes or no question, you're letting them explore.
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And by giving them some simple questions like that, they often
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go where they need to. And often, once they work
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through the feelings and emotions they might, they often
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identify their own next step. OK, what?
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What's the next thing I'm going to do?
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And that's the beauty of it. Oh, can't.
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Let's see. Can you hear me?
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OK, there we go. I had muted myself.
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How long did it take you honestly to let go of the old
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story and more importantly, the emotions that came with the old
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story? I see you just asked the easy
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questions now. So I, I, you know, I described
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this kind of one week period. I was really, really mad.
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And that was the beginning. And it's really funny.
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You mentioned the doctorate, right?
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So I realized that I was going to leave the Army at some point.
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And then about kind of two years after that happened, I'd asked
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the Army to send me to Italy for a NATO assignment.
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And I kind of knew this was I was going to be a terminal
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Lieutenant Colonel. I was not going to do something
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I didn't want to. I was kind of tired of being
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told where to move and where to live.
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I went through so frustrated not going to reach that goal that I
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wanted to. And then I went on what I can
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only see now is a fear based search for shiny things to put
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on my resume because I didn't know how to communicate worth
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through myself and to others as former Army leader.
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Because again, like 1618 years in, I'm going to retire at 2020
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plus. So I went and did a couple of
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different things. I went, what did I do for?
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I went and got the doctorate. Wonderful difficult experience,
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right? Did I realized after I was done,
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after a couple of years that I didn't want to work in academia.
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I was like, OK, great, OK, really cool experience worked on
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actually really enjoyed it because I worked on the Army's
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internal 360. So I really enjoyed that.
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That was me saying who like what's what's my value, What's
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my worth to the world outside of former Army leader.
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Then I went to PMP project management about the
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certification and in that journey realized that I think
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project management is the most useful but boring thing that I
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didn't want to do. It's like great, got that.
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When did lean 6 Sigma same thing, got the cert, didn't
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really enjoy it. So this is like 5 years while
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I'm still in the Army adding things to my resume.
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But I see now. So it was rooted in fear, but it
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was also I had to bump into things like, that's cool, but
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that doesn't lighten my fire. That doesn't fill my cup.
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Boom, try these three things. And so over that 5 or 6 year
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journey, that's how I eventually bumped into coaching.
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But I wasn't sure like where am I going to fit outside of the
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Army? And it took me years.
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So where were you? So one thing I think is pretty
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awesome about you though, is that you started all these
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certifications in advance of your retirement.
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So when you were at the point of retiring, what were you planning
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on doing? So I just described that journey
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where I bumped into a couple different things.
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And this is those that journey that was about 2021.
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So it's about two years out from retirement.
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So I'd had a couple years of bumping into things.
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And then, you know, to your point about having these
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experiences before you retire, there are a ton of nonprofits
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that help soon to be veterans have experiences like this.
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That's how I did PMP. That's how I did mean the GI
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Bill pay for my doctorate. And then I went to the Commit
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Foundation, one of many wonderful organizations.
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And in that kind of finding your purpose effort with MIT, I was
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coached for the first time and I was like, Oh my gosh, I had five
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sessions, 5/1 hour coaching sessions with a lovely human
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being named Jason. And I was like, I think I found
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it. I think I found the thing that I
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want to do. And so got a taste of it.
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I was like, how do I, how do I, how do I figure out how to do
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this? Went to a friend of mine.
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She had retired. She told me that Georgetown has
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a coaching training program. I was like, that's it.
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I found it. And then so they had to loop
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long answer the question, had all these journeys bumped into
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coaching? What being coached was the first
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time that, you know, 21 years of being in the Army where I
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actually started to be vulnerable because as, as you
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and I have discussed together, and I think it's fair to say
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that the military is not an institution that champions or
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encourages vulnerability. So coaching was opening a door
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to vulnerability. But by the time I left two years
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later, I had gone to coaching training and then had received 2
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credentials with the International Coaching
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Federation. So I had, I kind of started
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early and I'm so glad that was that I had this, that I had this
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journey to Trump in different things.
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And I eventually found being a coach which allowed me to serve
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others and serve myself. Wow.
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Tell us a little bit more about the Commit Foundation.
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Oh. It's been like 5 years now.
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So commit is one of lots of nonprofits and they had a man.
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I'm trying to remember the name. I think it's find your purpose,
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pursue your purpose, because that's one of the things that
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that's that's soon to be that's people outside the military
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struggle with is outside of the structure.
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The military telling you what your purpose is, whether it's in
17:34
the three thing 3 buckets of veterans often struggle with our
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identity, community and purpose. And so they had this series of
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workshops where you try to figure out what excites you,
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what you're good at, and then help you find your purpose and
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by happenstance or coincidence or fate, whatever you want to
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call it. Part of that journey was
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discovering coaching. I was like, I think that's.
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That's fascinating because it's very similar to my story, Tony.
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My last position before I left the military, I was working at
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an organization that also provided professional executive
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coaching, and I had one session and I was hooked.
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Yeah. Because so many of us, you know,
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especially in very chaotic high pressure jobs, you don't have a
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lot of time for reflection. And so when you actually get
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asked questions and someone holds space for you to think
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through and dive into like, huh, why do I think this way or what
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am I really scared of it? Just the possibilities open up
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tremendously. And, and that's why I also
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decided to get my certification as an executive coach as well.
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And I always encourage people to do it.
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I'm, I'm wondering if you know, Tony, are there any programs
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right now that offer executive coaching to transitioning
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veterans? Oh, let me think.
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I'm I'm I. I don't want to.
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It's been years since I've done commit, so I don't know if
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that's still a thing. I would encourage everyone to
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look up the Commit Foundation. I had the I had a very positive
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experience with them. There is another organization
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where I serve as a volunteer coach.
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Coaches called, stand beside them.
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Stand beside. Them Yep, I can send you the
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link after this. Another really useful
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organization that helps people in transition is called American
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corporate Partners. And I would say it's kind of
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coaching and mentoring mixed together.
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So they essentially you tell them you're when you're going to
19:51
transition out and over the span of a year that's the ideal
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program. They they, they, they hook you
19:58
up with someone and their their role it's kind of loosely
20:02
defined is to help you navigate your transition beyond what tap
20:04
gives you, what the military formula gives you to talk about
20:07
whatever you need. So I had a lovely there's a
20:10
lovely gentleman named Paul. He worked for MasterCard.
20:12
This is one of his like personal volunteer efforts.
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And for the last year I was in the military, we would get
20:17
together twice a month, once a month, depending on schedules,
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and we would talk through resumes, interview prep, how I
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presented myself to the world. So ACP American Corporate
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Partners is another wonderful organization.
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And now that I'm on the other side, I volunteer to help
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people. I'm an ACP mentor.
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I think it's yeah, Mentor now having had that positive
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experience as I was leaving, I think that there's a couple
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there and there's undoubtedly certainly more.
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Yeah, that's wonderful. I think that is something all
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transitioning veterans should look into are these types of
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opportunities because sometimes we get so caught up in just
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what's the next physical step that we need to take, but we
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don't think about the emotional toll that comes from
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transitioning. Yeah, it's there's another,
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there's a coaching company I work with called Kibeho and
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everyone on that team is a veteran over veteran adjacent.
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And we do a free monthly workshop.
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It's two hours long, it's virtual, no commitment, no
21:30
obligation. And it's just about what you
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described. The practical stuff is the easy
21:36
lift, the LinkedIn, the resume, that's all the easy stuff.
21:40
Tap the emotional stuff, as you said, that's the heavy lift.
21:46
Who the hell am I outside of a uniform?
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What's my identity? What's my purpose?
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What are my community or communities that will sustain me
21:57
where I can give and they'll give that.
21:59
That's the hard stuff. But the practical stuff, like
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you just said, that's, that's gonna probably work out.
22:05
But like the here, the head and more importantly, the heart,
22:10
that's the difficult stuff. Yeah.
22:13
What do you think it is about us as humans that we don't?
22:21
I don't know. I guess the way I think about it
22:23
is if I know something's coming, I have time to prepare for it,
22:26
right? So I know my transition's
22:29
coming. I need to do XY and Z just
22:33
again, the physical things to provide security for myself and
22:36
my family. But so I think that makes it a
22:41
little bit easier because, you know, you need to take those
22:46
steps. But I, I wonder, like, what is
22:50
it about us as humans that we don't give ourselves the the
22:55
opportunity to understand that emotionally we're going to be
23:00
impacted and it's OK to be impacted.
23:04
You know, for example, Tony, I was told by everybody that
23:08
transitioning was hard and that, you know, you would struggle
23:12
after you took off the, the, the uniform.
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And I don't know why I thought, oh, that's not me.
23:19
You know, because I had plans of starting my business and kind of
23:22
had started it before I retired. And so I was like, this is just
23:26
another day in the office. I've just, you know, not wearing
23:30
a uniform. And it sent me into a complete
23:36
downward spiral because I think I wasn't prepared for that.
23:41
Because in my mind, I'm like, OK, I have to be thinking now as
23:44
a business owner. And so I'm doing everything I
23:47
need to do as a business owner. But I was doing nothing to
23:51
maintain a community. I was doing nothing to think
23:56
about what's my identity now? And and it's just, it doesn't
24:02
even make sense to me, Tony, because people told people
24:05
warned me, but yet it never stuck.
24:10
And, and I woke up one day and quite frankly, it was like 2
24:14
years after the down world Spira.
24:16
And I was like, huh, this is what they were talking about?
24:20
There's yes, yes, and then sprinkle on some more yes.
24:23
So there's two things that really come up for me.
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There is that I was, I, what time, what month is it about and
24:31
nine days. It will be 3 years since I left
24:33
the Army and I'm still transitioning from the Army.
24:36
And that is OK. It's not a, if there's a few
24:42
people out there where it's a light switch and they're like,
24:44
I'm good, I can settle this down fine.
24:47
The majority of people. And I think to your story and
24:49
our story and other story, it's a little more complex than that.
24:53
And the second thing that comes up when you, you share that,
24:56
when you share, when you ask this last part here is the idea
24:59
of grieving. There are very few places and I
25:03
think in our kind of collective society where it's OK to grieve
25:06
a transition, to mark, to recognize a transition.
25:10
And I remember now. So I retired in 2023 in May, had
25:14
my retirement ceremony, the lovely affair, the NATO
25:18
headquarters in the US contingent where I was at did a
25:21
tremendous job. It's just kind of an important
25:24
ritual to mark the and like months later to your point of
25:28
just like smacking you in the face, it was a funeral.
25:33
I can see it now. That event, while it was joyful,
25:38
it was a way to mark a transition.
25:40
It was a funeral because a part of myself, part of my identity,
25:45
dying may be a strong word, but it was.
25:47
It was leaving me. Yeah.
25:49
So now that I realize, I recognize that ritual.
25:53
I needed to. And it wasn't that day in May
25:56
months, years later, I needed to grieve to recognize like the
26:03
difficulty of setting that down after 20 years.
26:07
That's a long time to do anything.
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And that's a long freaking time to live with the structure, the
26:15
structure, the rigidity, the institutionalization.
26:19
And there's lots of good things too.
26:21
That's a long time to do anything.
26:23
So it's OK to grieve. It's OK for it not to be OK.
26:28
It's OK to go from like being like wicked happy 1 moment and
26:32
then just like sobbing. All of that is OK.
26:42
You had a really good point about how especially in America,
26:46
we don't really leave space or talk about grieving transition.
26:55
I think maybe you know, the easiest or, or the first example
27:02
I think of is losing someone. That's a huge transition and
27:08
everyone understands there is a grieving process.
27:11
And I think it's completely accepted, you know, across the
27:16
board, people understand if you lose someone, you're going to
27:18
have to take time to grieve. But I also agree it's
27:22
fascinating that getting a divorce, you need time to grieve
27:29
that graduating from college or high school, you know, I think
27:34
sometimes people are a little bit younger and so they're more
27:37
excited about what's in the future.
27:40
But you know, when you get to be our age and you put some some
27:43
significant years into something, it doesn't matter
27:48
what it is. It's a marriage.
27:50
It's a job your kids leave in the house, and I think grieving
27:58
is necessary in all of those cases.
28:01
What would you say to somebody to help them to understand that
28:04
that's OK? Oh.
28:08
That's a good question. I think I would sit with them
28:13
and let them say whatever they need to say or something that
28:20
they may not have felt that they can say or they're not have
28:23
been. It's not like they haven't had a
28:27
chance to share it. There's a lovely idea someone
28:31
share with me. So a friend of mine retired from
28:35
the British Army a little while ago and I offered him something
28:42
called Seeds and Ashes and it was a A.
28:45
We did an hour and a half conversation, just him and me
28:48
and I recorded it and he got it and it was similar to a coaching
28:52
session. And the idea is seeds and ashes,
28:56
right? So you're leaving, you're
28:57
leaving this, you've done this thing for decades.
29:00
What do you not want to take with you the ashes?
29:02
What do you want to recognize? But maybe set down, put in the
29:06
backyard or somewhere that's not going to be a party rack and
29:08
what are the seeds? What are you going to keep?
29:11
So and everything in between. So I, I would encourage people
29:17
to like we were talking about earlier, recognize that their
29:20
feelings, what they're feeling, they're OK.
29:23
It's OK to be like a weather in the tornado when you're in the
29:26
midst of transition, even years later like you were talking
29:28
about. And then structure, some doesn't
29:35
have to be formal. What do you want to, what do you
29:37
want to sit down? What do you want to carry with
29:40
you? There's something about the Army
29:41
I can't stand and I didn't take them with me.
29:44
There's lots of things about the Army that I really love.
29:46
So I guess kind of looping back, see what you can do to reflect
29:52
on what the experience was like, what you want to take with you,
29:56
and what you want to set down. That seems like a very useful
30:02
exercise because number one, it forces you to actually think
30:08
through these things. And I think about my divorce,
30:12
for example, when and it was an amicable divorce.
30:17
So, you know, unlike a lot of people that it's, it gets very
30:21
ugly. I was lucky from that aspect.
30:26
But in the same hand, I never really took time to think about
30:30
what I would grieve because obviously if you're married to
30:33
someone, there were there were great times, you know, and so
30:38
kind of forcing your brain to go through that process of what am
30:42
I going to miss? And So what do I, what did I
30:46
love about the marriage or the job or, you know, whatever it
30:50
is, and how am I going to make sure to carry that with me?
30:56
And then what parts didn't serve me well that I'm going to make
30:59
sure to bury or throw the ashes over a Cliff, you know, and, and
31:08
say no more. That's in the past.
31:10
It didn't serve me. Where did you hear about that
31:13
exercise? Or did you develop it?
31:16
Well, that's a good question. The name came from a fellow.
31:19
I was talking with another coach about it and she gave me the
31:23
name and I was like, that's a great name.
31:25
Can I steal it? You know, that's what coaches
31:26
do. We help each other.
31:29
I, I'm, I have no doubt I'm not the first person that thought of
31:32
this, but this friend of mine, he lives in the UK.
31:37
As I mentioned, he retired from the British Army and I helped
31:40
play in a, a surprise retirement dinner for him, kind of like,
31:49
not like a retirement servant, but a gathering of friends.
31:52
And I was just thinking, so he's going to have this social event,
31:55
this very kind of jovial collective experience.
31:58
But I thought I've had these spaces to reflect, go through
32:03
grieving that had these experiences.
32:07
How do you feel about sitting down, just talking to me about
32:10
it and then recording it? And so I, I'm sure I didn't
32:14
invent it, but there's something that came up over the last six
32:16
months. And so I'm planning this event
32:18
for my friend. And so he recorded it, I gave it
32:21
to him, and he can decide what to do with it.
32:25
He may never watch the video. He may watch it in a year or
32:31
different milestones that he decides.
32:34
But it's a way, it could be a way for him to sit and reflect
32:40
on what's changed in a sense of left service or he's left
32:46
service in a sense. I love that so much.
32:49
And matter of fact, Sylvia, who's joining us, says thank you
32:54
for bringing that topic of grief and transition.
32:57
So, Sylvia, I hope you don't mind.
32:59
I'm going to tell a little bit about your story.
33:02
And she is one of my mentees. I met her in Kenya on a keynote
33:07
speaking tour and that was in 2022.
33:10
And we are still connected to this day.
33:13
But she's an amazing young woman, very talented.
33:16
And she recently gave birth to a beautiful little girl named
33:21
Tamara. And, you know, we've had
33:24
conversation about what it's like having a child.
33:29
And that's a, that's another example of a transition.
33:34
You know, you go from being a a single person taking care of
33:39
yourself or maybe taking care of your spouse or your significant
33:42
other, but now you are responsible for someone else's
33:46
life. So I can see great utility in
33:51
doing that exercise even as a new parent.
33:55
Yeah, Yep, you're absolutely right.
33:57
Because you've this wow, this identity of I am this person in
34:02
a maybe I'm in a relationship, maybe I'm married, maybe I'm in
34:05
a partnership, maybe I'm not. But I am saying goodbye to this
34:08
version of me and this new version is showing up.
34:12
And I had my own kind of, of course, I didn't do the
34:14
reflection 18 years ago, but when our children were born are
34:18
twins, I was away and I was away in Iraq for a one year
34:22
deployment. So I left a very pregnant wife
34:25
and came home to six months old. So within the context of being
34:30
deployed for a year, that version of me changed.
34:33
And it kind of hit me in the face when I got back.
34:36
And I wish I'd had the foresight and the space then to sit with
34:41
that, to sit with the idea that I am now father.
34:45
Like you were tall, mother with your friend, I am now mother.
34:52
What's changed? What do I keep?
34:55
What do I sit down? What can I be?
34:58
What can I grieve about? Yeah, that's so powerful because
35:03
especially I'm thinking about Owen and let's see what Sylvia
35:07
has to say, she said. And the pressure of postpartum
35:11
stress as a young 25 year old. Yes, Sylvia, absolutely.
35:16
And you know, that's the thing that we have to understand too,
35:20
is that especially in the situation of having a child,
35:24
there's chemical changes happening in your body.
35:28
And then anytime you transition there, there are emotional
35:33
changes that you're dealing with.
35:36
And so thank you so much for sharing that, Sylvia.
35:39
And I'm curious, Sylvia, if you had the opportunity to do a
35:44
Seeds and Ashes exercise, how much more likely would you be to
35:50
find the great things about yourself that you can still
35:54
carry into motherhood? I'm thinking that especially at
36:02
2:00 in the morning when you are exhausted and you're praying
36:07
that the the baby takes a nap so you can take a nap, that you
36:13
could be reminded that all those great things about who you were,
36:19
you can bring those with you and they can make you even a better
36:24
mother. Thank you for sharing that
36:28
exercise, Tony. That's so powerful.
36:32
My pleasure. I think about TAP, which is the
36:39
transition assistance program for military service members,
36:42
and I think about how even that one simple exercise could serve
36:47
people in such a powerful way. Yeah, I agree.
36:52
And I think I, I don't know if I did tap once or twice, but we're
36:57
really good at the practical stuff.
37:00
It's the emotional stuff is though, it is always the harder
37:03
stuff to do in a, in a, in large group and in spaces like that.
37:08
So it does some, some does some things really well.
37:11
But I have, I have, I found fewer places or less places.
37:17
I always get a mixed up to to do the to do the emotional work.
37:24
And Sylvia actually says she would be very likely to be able
37:28
to focus on those positive attributes and the the things
37:31
that are great about her that she's not losing, that she's
37:35
carrying over. And you know, one of the
37:38
exercises I like to do with one of with my clients, Owen, Sylvia
37:42
says. Thank you, Tony.
37:45
No, you're welcome. Thank you for joining us.
37:47
One of the exercises I like to do with my clients, especially,
37:51
I've had some clients that are transitioning from one position
37:56
and then looking for a job, looking for the next thing.
38:00
I like to do an exercise where I have them write down a list of
38:03
50 things that they have achieved or accomplished or
38:08
they're proud of themselves for. And I got this from one of my
38:12
coaches, Tony, because I was struggling, you know, here I am
38:16
21 years retired veteran, combat veteran, you know, commanded one
38:22
of the largest MI battalion. There are companies in the in
38:24
the Army, deployed twice, managed, you know, budgets in,
38:32
in the hundreds of millions, all these things.
38:35
And yet after I transitioned out of the military, I found myself
38:39
saying and getting caught up in this idea of like, I have
38:42
nothing to offer, why would anybody want to work with me?
38:47
Yeah. And my coach was like, you're
38:49
crazy. And I'm like, no, I don't have.
38:51
I have. I don't have anything.
38:54
And and so she forced me to do this exercise.
38:56
And Tony, when I started to write it, it was very hard for
39:00
me. I struggled to come up with
39:01
three things. But then once you prime your
39:05
brain and your brain starts to flow.
39:09
Oh, yeah, I guess I did do that. Well, I guess, I guess I did
39:13
accomplish that thing. But I think so many of us,
39:17
especially high achievers, were taught not to celebrate the
39:21
moments, like move on to the next thing.
39:24
Yeah, yeah, you did that. But what's next?
39:26
What are you going to do now? That's what I did at the at the
39:30
top when you were like listing all these amazing things that I
39:32
was like, oh, that's a lot. That's a lot of words and energy
39:34
on me. So I'll, I'll give you a
39:37
technique that I use. So.
39:38
Please. Two years ago I finally made an
39:42
e-mail folder in my. You know, because I'm, you know,
39:45
organized. I wonder where I got that from,
39:46
right? Called celebrate me.
39:50
So whenever someone gives me a lovely note, thank you for this
39:53
coaching journey, thank you for how you showed up, I take that
39:56
e-mail. The first thing I learned is
39:58
just to say thank you as opposed to going down the self
40:01
deprecating route or the excessively excessive humility
40:05
route. And I just reply with gratitude
40:08
and I take that e-mail and I tuck it away.
40:11
And so, but it's, it's a little place, it's a little temple or I
40:15
can recognize that I've had a positive impact on many people.
40:19
And I just over there, I'm a little shelf right there.
40:22
I've got a bunch of handwritten notes from people from all over
40:26
the world, people that I bumped into.
40:28
And that's my little celebrate meet corner.
40:31
And like, I'm just now becoming OK with that at 48 years old and
40:35
having been out of the Army three years, like it's OK every
40:38
once in a while to say, yeah, I did that and this is the impact
40:45
I had. So that's a challenge.
40:48
So every I would encourage everyone to find your own way to
40:52
celebrate the impact that you have on other people.
40:58
Yes, and you know, I, I love that you brought up that
41:04
discussion because that's actually what this show is all
41:06
about, helping people to understand that legacy isn't
41:10
some big, huge accomplishment. You know, I used to think of
41:13
legacy like the the George W Bush freeway or, you know, and
41:19
then it would almost seem impossible to me like, well, I'm
41:23
not going to have a legacy. You know, I'll I'll never make
41:27
it that big or do something so impactful.
41:31
But then when you actually think about the individual lives of
41:37
the people that you're impacting, to those people, you
41:42
probably mean more than a George W Bush.
41:45
Yeah, Yep, so very you. Might have had.
41:49
Yeah, so it's very human moments that you have with people.
41:56
I'm drawn back. Must have been first time I was
41:59
in no second time I was in Korea, I was sitting down with a
42:04
I was a major first time sitting down with the captain and we
42:07
were talking and exercise one of those long two week long and
42:11
we're just sitting there in a headquarter somewhere.
42:17
She was she was prior enlisted and so she could have retired
42:22
like that day. So she well over 20 years and we
42:26
just sat and talked for like an hour or two and about the things
42:32
we've been talking about, what's success, what's good enough.
42:37
And it was a very it was a very human moment.
42:41
And after the discussion, she had kind of realized this loops
42:44
back to what we said at the top. She had decided decades ago that
42:48
success for her having been prior enlisted was a retires and
42:51
major. That was it.
42:54
That was the goal, that was the finish line.
42:56
And then just through a very human conversation, and now this
42:59
is, I realized it was essentially like a without any
43:02
skills or training or coaching conversation where I was just
43:04
asking her a question, which is not really too much of a
43:07
surprise that I ended up in that space.
43:09
But asking her what, what's, what's success for you now?
43:14
And she reached she and she decided, OK, I'm OK with this.
43:19
And she started the path force in retirement.
43:21
We had a lovely retirement ceremony for her.
43:24
She's a fabulous human being. So I'm, I'm always drawn back to
43:30
those very human moments that we have to your point about legacy,
43:34
because you just don't know. You just don't know the space
43:39
that you create for others to thrive, to grow, and to move on.
43:47
And I think the question of what is success to me even that
43:53
question really can give you the opportunity to question maybe
44:03
some of the ways of thinking that you may have picked up from
44:10
somebody else. Yeah.
44:13
I think so many of us, I, I, I remember speaking to a young
44:17
high school girl and her telling me that, you know, she's so
44:22
worried that, I mean, kids these days, they're so stressed about
44:25
getting into a good college and, you know, do they have enough
44:28
volunteer hours and all these things?
44:30
And I asked her, I said, what would happen if you didn't go to
44:34
college? And she said that I would fail.
44:39
And I asked her who, who told you that?
44:42
And she said, I don't know. I mean, I isn't that just what
44:47
success looks like when you graduate high school?
44:51
And, you know, I could probably name a dozen people that didn't
44:54
go to college and yet became billionaires, ended up having
44:59
phenomenally successful lives and they never went to college.
45:06
So even asking that question, what is success?
45:12
And you know, I'll pull on that even more.
45:13
JJ is like please. And who's, where does that story
45:18
like, where does that version, that end state of success, where
45:20
does it come from? Is it yours?
45:26
Did you at some point subconsciously accept it?
45:29
Did you ever choose it? Was it given to you?
45:37
And like, we've had this conversation like where our
45:39
children, as I told you before, they just turned 18.
45:41
They got another year of high school.
45:43
So they're off on their own journey, and we're just trying
45:46
our damnedest to not automatically or subconsciously
45:50
give them. Here's what success looks like.
45:55
And of course you want to guide and nudge and encourage because
45:58
you know what the world is like for the good and the bad.
46:01
But it's also like, is this? Is this yours?
46:05
Is it? Did you paint it on to yourself?
46:08
Like you think of it like a layer of paint on the side of
46:09
the house? Did someone else paint it on to
46:12
you and how you OK with it? So I mean, that's there's a
46:15
whole bunch of really like you talk about a bunch of simple
46:17
questions like is this mine? If you ask me what is success,
46:28
when I retired from the military, it was having a six
46:32
figure profitable business clients that I loved working
46:39
with and the lifestyle that I that I loved.
46:45
And I find it fascinating, Tony, that the money is really one of
46:53
the only things that have dropped off of that definition
46:58
of success for me because I realized money, first of all,
47:03
it's not everything. Yeah.
47:06
And second of all, when you make your definition of success a
47:10
material thing, it becomes harder to stay within your
47:18
power. Yeah.
47:22
And how exciting is that to have a definition of success that you
47:28
can control? Yeah.
47:31
I mean, you think of like a pie or like a quad with, OK, money's
47:34
important, right? We got to have money balance
47:39
being around people that you actually want to be around.
47:44
Yeah. Being able to choose whose
47:47
energy you accept and whose energy you, who you give energy
47:51
to. I mean, those are, those are
47:54
difficult to quantify, but I've, you know, from my experience,
47:59
they're much more valuable than money.
48:00
Yes. And you know, whatever your
48:03
slice of the pie slice is, whether it's 1648, twelve or
48:07
maybe it's just money. Great.
48:08
And that's what you got to do. But you know, it's I'm drawn at
48:12
this point. I'm kind of drawn more like
48:13
your, I think as you're describing JJ drawn more towards
48:16
the the the harder to quantify things about who I'm with
48:21
balance accepting my own definition of productivity.
48:27
Yeah. Oh, I like that one.
48:30
That's crazy talk. That's that's really good.
48:36
Now look at that. Look at how many different words
48:39
we've brought up that again. Who gave you that definition of
48:47
that word, or when did you decide to take that definition?
48:55
Or did you? Or yeah.
48:57
Or did you even choose MM? Hmm.
49:03
Oh, you, you really just blew my mind right then.
49:05
Because again, I find it's This is why coaching is so powerful,
49:10
because you, everyone needs time and space to think.
49:16
Even if it's just an hour, we need that time and space to
49:19
think. And so I just realized right now
49:22
my definition of productivity is an image of myself waking up at
49:26
5:00 in the morning, you know, getting my workout on, get some
49:30
good food in, and then jumping onto the the computer and just
49:35
getting to work. And then, you know, being
49:39
successful in terms of how many, you know, discovery calls I
49:43
have, how many client sessions I have, how many products I build.
49:48
And then, you know, what time do I get off the computer and it's
49:53
in my mind it's a late hour. That's my definition of
49:56
productivity, Tony. I don't like that definition.
50:01
Where? Where did it come from?
50:03
I think the Army, for me, a lot of it came from the Army, but,
50:10
and I think it was given to me and I don't think, well,
50:14
actually I think there probably is a part of me that chose to
50:18
accept that. Yeah, because I liked the
50:21
feeling of achievement and doing.
50:24
And if I'm being honest, it got a lot of external validation
50:28
from achieving and doing. And so it made sense.
50:32
Well, if you're going to be productive, you're going to
50:34
achieve and do more. So I mean, yes, right.
50:41
Just go. Just looks back to what we said
50:43
about seeds and ashes. OK?
50:48
Do I need to take all that with me?
50:50
Is that, is that me today? Is that you today?
50:56
What? What's in between?
50:59
What else could be true? What else could be possible?
51:07
You know, I think of it a lot like a bullet train, Tony.
51:11
That's how I would describe my, my military career.
51:14
It was so fast, so furious, so much momentum and velocity, just
51:23
everything. You know, it's like once you got
51:26
on that train, you didn't really have time to think about the
51:32
next stop and then all of a sudden you're there.
51:38
And I think a lot of people experience life that way too,
51:41
because we're all going so fast and we're all so focused on what
51:46
we need to do. And, you know, we got to pay the
51:48
bills and we got to take care of the kids.
51:51
We got to do good at our job. And it, it's like this bullet
51:56
train. And again, that's why I love
51:58
coaching so much, because it actually gives you a moment to
52:03
step off the train. Almost like I get this image of
52:07
being in like this beautiful park and the the train's still
52:12
there, you know, and it's still waiting for you, but you get to
52:15
sit there in this beautiful park with.
52:18
Someone. Else and just ask a question, do
52:23
I want to get back on that train?
52:30
Yeah, we can pull on the metaphor a bit longer.
52:32
So I've stepped off the train. I'm in the park.
52:38
Do I still see the train? Do I want us to still see the
52:41
train? What's it like to look at the
52:45
train and not be on the train anymore?
52:50
When does the train leave? How am I going to feel when the
52:57
train leaves? Is it still my train?
53:00
You know, people I when I was transitioning people like the
53:03
Army's going to be some of the some of the best advice I ever
53:06
got was Tony, you're doing great work.
53:11
The Army pick your institution doesn't matter.
53:14
For me, it was the Army. Army will be just fine.
53:19
Like truly it will be OK without you.
53:22
And you're just like, what do you what do you mean?
53:26
What? And so like for me, you take
53:29
that metaphor that trains pulled up.
53:32
I've gotten off. I'm not sure if I'm in a park.
53:36
Maybe I am now, years later. But the train kept going.
53:42
OK. I can still see the tracks.
53:46
I think I can still hear it. I think, oh, what's that like?
53:56
Wow. Excuse.
53:59
Me and I think we need, we need to be able to pause and ask
54:06
those questions because if not, you know, especially when life
54:10
is moving so fast. And I think that's why I like
54:13
the analogy of a train or like a high speed train is because it's
54:18
like you get on and maybe you thought you knew what you were
54:22
doing when you get on the train. But if you've ever been on a
54:25
bullet train in in Europe, there's not many stops.
54:29
Yeah. Because it is high speed go into
54:34
one place. And So what happens when along
54:38
that way, maybe you're the the destination you're on your way
54:42
to isn't actually where you really want to go?
54:45
Yeah. And the people that I've seen
54:50
struggle the most when leaving are, and there's a variety of
54:56
variables here, but I'm drawn back to the idea of slowing down
55:00
and reflecting. Like I'm sure if you're not able
55:05
or capable to do that, to spend that time to think about who you
55:07
could be, who you can be after the uniform or after it.
55:12
It's not just military specific, first responder, lawyer, doctor.
55:16
And you've done this thing, this all consuming thing for decades.
55:21
I would encourage as many people as possible to find a place to
55:24
reflect, because otherwise it might be like dropping off that
55:26
train at speed and that doesn't sound like a fun, fun way to get
55:34
off the train. Wow, now that you put it that
55:42
way, I feel like that's what I experienced.
55:47
Yeah. I didn't purposefully and
55:54
thoughtfully get off the train. I'm metaphorically held on to it
56:00
for dear life. Yeah.
56:03
Until the conductor kicked me off.
56:07
Yeah, 'cause it's, it's actually, it feels like it's
56:11
easier to just keep holding on than it is to do like the much
56:15
more challenging work of like all the things we've talked
56:19
about, defining productivity, figuring out what your identity
56:23
is, what your purpose is. It feels easier to just hold on
56:27
for dear life. Yeah, Tony, I have had such an
56:33
amazing time with you and I know our viewers have two.
56:36
I am curious what is the most important advice you would tell
56:44
someone who is either getting ready to transition or is in a
56:50
transition right now? Well, a couple things come up.
56:56
I mean, the the first one is grace to recognize, as we
57:02
discussed earlier, that this may not all be unicorns and rainbows
57:05
and there's going to be parts that suck and you may there may
57:08
be grieving. And to recognize at all that's
57:11
OK. And to reach out and talk to
57:13
others who've had an similar experience, talk to people that
57:17
you trust about it and see what worked for them or what didn't
57:20
work for that worked for them. And then go find these
57:22
organizations that help people transition.
57:25
You know, they're free. They're free.
57:27
You're not taking something away from someone else by stepping
57:31
away these nonprofit spaces. And then, I guess, finally, to
57:36
recognize that your transition could take months or years.
57:42
And that's OK, too. It's your transition.
57:47
Give yourself some grace. Have some patience as you get
57:51
through that. So yeah, there we go.
57:54
Awesome. Thank you so much, Tony for
57:58
joining us. This has been a really enjoyable
58:01
conversation and I'm excited for you guys watching to read your
58:07
comments and to see if you have any questions.
58:09
And until next time, I hope you all will focus on living a life
58:15
of impact, leading wherever you are in whichever way you can, so
58:23
that you can lean into your legacy.
58:27
Until next time, take care. Thanks for watching and
58:32
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