Latest / FOLLOW / What if your story isn't over? /// FOLLOW with Gregg Giamlava

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What if your story isn't over? /// FOLLOW with Gregg Giamlava · FOLLOW

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: When you have a failed marriage at 21 years old as a pastor, you think you're out of the game forever.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's you really do you wear a scarlet letter on your chest that everyone sees a guy who thought he was gonna go change the world, but now all that's left is like this disappointment.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really in my head told me, you know, I can be around the things of God, but I can't serve God directly.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: We'll think that the brokenness of this world is a reflection of God, but God really like gave the world to Adam and Eve.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: So really the pain that we see is it more of a reflection of man than it is God.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so a lot of this pain and that we see is because of us, like the stuff we do.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, before we keep going, can I ask you something?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: What if following Jesus isn't mostly about knowing more, but actually rearranging your life around what he said is true?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the belief behind everything we do at follow.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: If Jesus is right about God, life, and the soul, then his way is worth actually living.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, here's the thing following Jesus, it is a journey.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: It can be slow, it is intentional, and sometimes it is a little bit disorienting, but you don't have to have it all figured out.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: You just need a next step.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, start with the follow guide.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: It is a 30-day guided journey with one reading and one practice each day designed to help you take what Jesus taught and begin putting it into practice.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Go through it on your own, with a friend, or with a group, and that's just the beginning.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: The follow library includes guides to the words of Jesus and prayer, and with more to come on practices like scripture, rest, and so much more, all created to help you keep rearranging your everyday life around what Jesus said is true.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't have to change everything today, you just need to take your next step along his way.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: So visit follow thewayofjesus.com.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Start that journey today.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: The backstory is sort of important.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Greg was 16.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: When I left the University of Kansas, I found myself in a youth group that I ended up interning at.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I taught at their local uh the the Christian high school, and Greg was a student there.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you're like, I don't know.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was probably 21, 22, you were 16.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, 16.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I started, I mean, it's not this isn't the story, but I was I was like born and raised Catholic, didn't really have any connection to God.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not that there's anything wrong with Catholicism.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: We were just bad Catholics.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I never had any connection or relationship with God.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then at 16, I got invited to a youth group.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that summer, the summer in between my summer and junior year, that's the summer you had started your like ministry internship, pastoral role that are parks because I still remember this.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I came to a camp or retreat they called Quorum Deo, and you did some skit or drama where you were on like a time traveling toilet.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I do remember that.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Time traveling toilet.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a real thing, by the way.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this is youth ministry right here.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Parks is on a time traveling toilet.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I got saved at this thing, man.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I dedicated my life to the Lord at this camp.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the Lord can, you know, if he can use a talking donkey, he can use time traveling toilets, man.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how I met Eric, though.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I met him 16.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was on a journey.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: I went to four high schools in two years, and that's what like kind of brought me looking for the Lord, and and then got connected there.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Time traveling toilet was the name of my punk band in high school.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that is wild.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so he he played a part in you coming to faith.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I didn't actually know him at the time.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: He was just like the cool college kid that like people looked up to.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we probably really connected when I started going to Christian life, which was the name of the high school.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And Eric was like, you were were you a Bible teacher?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were well, you were my Bible teacher senior year.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about when I started going, but then he, I think we connected through him being one of my Bible teachers at school, and then we became buddies.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Here's my claim to fame because I was 22.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't do a lot of teaching Bible.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: I did a lot of like taking kids out for lunch.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's pretty much what I did is and that's we played a lot of spades too, didn't we?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Playing tons of spades in class.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like private education dollars, playing spades with our Bible teacher.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was awesome though.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in all seriousness, though, Greg, I think uh the setup for all this, you know, we've been in this series.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Carter said, uh the the Brits say cracking on.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the that it's basically a phrase for struggling well.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've just been talking through with folks that I think have learned a little about life.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus said, you know, in this life you're gonna have trouble.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the reality is like having some trouble is actually the norm, not, you know, abnormal.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh, dude, I would just love to go back in time a little bit and um maybe tell us a little bit of your story and what what have you learned in the process?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, because the reality is you like most of us, you've had some unexpected turns.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Life has uh not always gone the way you hoped it would.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And yet here we are, you know, all these years later, on the other side of those things, and as it is often the case, we learn so much, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: When we go through this stuff.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe, maybe just um walk us through your story a little bit.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned already kind of coming to faith, but I had a what you would call like a radical conversion.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and much like many people do when they come to faith in Christ, a lot of times they come to faith in Christ because they realize they need to be saved from something, not only saved from themselves, but saved from the trouble they're in.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And just knowing that and then coming out of that, like usually there's a euphoric excitement to finding Christ.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's interesting though, because we're talking about like in this world you'll have trouble.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we find Christ to escape trouble and we don't believe a lot of times.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe early young in our faith, we don't actually believe that there will be trouble on the other side of faith.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the first like crises, I guess, that people have in their faith is when disappointment from God or struggle does come in because they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like I was escaping trouble.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I found you to escape that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but wait, there's still disappointment on the other side of faith.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think there's a reckoning for everybody or a reconciliation that people have to have with their faith journey when some type of disappointment comes in.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, I think most, I can't say this unilaterally, but a lot of people's um like when people have theological questions or apologetic questions, really what it is is it's a a pain question masked in apologetics.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: They don't actually wonder about like, is science real compared to God and the Bible?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: What they're saying is, why did this bad thing happen to me?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or why did this happen to my friend?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what they can't reconcile.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they mask it like in all of these other questions.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's once again, that's not universally true, but I think a lot of a lot of a lot of our questioning is just masked in pain because we have pain and we don't know how to how to reconcile that.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, so it's a little bit of my story.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean to ramble here.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, bro.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I mean, I wanted to be, I knew right when I became a Christian, I wanted to be a pastor.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it was so real to me.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what Jesus did for me was so real that I was like, I just knew right away that this was a calling that I believe God had put on my life.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so from 16, like reorient, reoriented my life's plans, Bible college ministry internship.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that from 16 to like 21, and was like, this is what I'm gonna do with my life.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then I get my first ministry job and move out to Pittsburgh, and it was just not what I expected.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing was what I expected.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that whole season just became like a train wreck in my life.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Felt like my entire life went off the rails.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of a lot of it because of my fault, my inexperience, my naivete, my pride, my arrogance.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it is just circumstances that happened to me.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: The church kind of overpromised and underdelivered, and it wasn't what I expected.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a it felt like a little bit of a facade.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had a broken relationship.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was a part of that as well.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really heartbreaking to lose this relationship.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so going through a broken relationship and a broken career.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm living in Pittsburgh.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at this church for literally only six months.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd moved my entire life, didn't know anyone, worked at this church for six months.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a one-bedroom, just lame apartment.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I made like no money.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was working at, dude, I had to get a job at an ice cream shop.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: I remember.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to make ends meet.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so you go from thinking you're gonna be a pastor to changing the world to giving people chunky monkey.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's all it's not like like a life's plan.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone's happy when they come to the ice cream shop.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not the guy serving it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: He ain't he ain't that happy.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're all excited to get your cherry Garcia, and I'm sitting there trying to, I'm questioning my life's decisions.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like what you know, why am I at that time?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that so because that that drama, the thing you were sitting in, broken relationship, broken career, like it everything you went there with disappeared, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's gone.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, gone.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, and now I don't know what's next.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I, and in my head, remember, I'm young in my faith, I had escaped what I thought was like pain and trouble, and now I'm feeling my finding myself in in pain and trouble again.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And in my head, I kept thinking, God, all I ever wanted to do was serve you.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I pledged my life to you.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I've given you my career, I told you I'll go wherever you want me to go.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I like for me, I kept thinking, if this is how you treat your friends, I'd hate to see what you do do to your enemies.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like these were things I was wrestling with.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've told you this story before, Eric, but um, kind of as I'm going through these like hills and valleys, and these were daily moments, I remember sitting in my one-bedroom apartment, and I had kind of reconciled that you know what, it if following God got me here, then maybe I just don't need to follow God.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had this moment where I'm sitting in my apartment, like, maybe, maybe I should try to do life on my own again.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I told God, I remember I sat down on my couch and I was like, God, I just want you to know I'm done with you.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just need to get this off my chest.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm done with you.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna do things my own way.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I sat down on my couch and I felt good, like almost relieved.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh man, I I told God what was up.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And as clear as I've ever sensed God in my life, as clear as I've ever heard his voice, it wasn't an audible voice, but as much as I've ever sensed the Holy Spirit in a moment, this still voice came over me and it said, You can try to be done with me, but Greg, you know too much.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to tell me, a person, that you're done with me.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking to me because you know I'm real.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Yeah, I do know too much.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was real.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Lonely, I had to decide.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: That season of disappointment for me became an all-in.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm actually gonna follow Jesus now because it's real.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Not because anyone's cheering me on, not, you know, and I think that's where those trouble moments come in.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it's a it's a clarifier for people, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: They then decide, okay, am I really in this?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: It not for what I'm gonna get out of it, but because of who he is.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Am I in this because he's real, because he is who he says he was?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or do I just need to get the Bennies?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if there is no Benny package, am I out?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we all have these moments.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I was from that point on, I like it was a complete like 180, recommitted my life to the Lord.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't know exactly what that would look like yet, but it was a recommitment back to the Lord and and like all in following him.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's these moments like where you know pain can land on you, you know, and so like in in some ways you can kind of uh be like like you just kind of unpack so beautifully, like and be like, oh, this isn't the offense I thought it was, going to this church, you know, and so um, you know, and you can question yourself and all all of the pieces.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then there's sometimes a pain that you had your hand in and you're like, oh, I don't have the someone to blame other than than me.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm curious, like, as you like look back, whether the time of Pittsburgh or a season in your early kind of years of ministry, um, how do you hold both of those like with honesty in your own story?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you discern between those two?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's a really great question.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something that we all have to hold honestly, because the reality is as much as we'd all like to say we're victims to the world around us and sin nature, and the reality is we are oftentimes victims to our own poor choices, and we're praying for God to deliver us out of messes we got ourselves into.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and that's just reality.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And even like, I mean, it the the the reality is too, it is a broken world.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll blame God for like the sin or the brokenness of this world, and we'll think that the brokenness of this world is a reflection of God, but God really like gave the world to Adam and Eve.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, the the pain that we see is more of a reflection of man than it is God.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so a lot of this pain that we see is because of us, like the stuff we do, the things we do to each other, and all of that.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, I do think you have to have an honest reconciliation.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and now, Eric, I don't know if he was gonna mention this or not, Eric had a very significant role in playing in getting me back into vocational ministry.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things he challenged me with was self-reflection and ownership of my own, like, where did I go wrong?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like early on, and like what was it that what were the choices I made?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reality is if you don't deal with any of your mistakes or your baggage, you're gonna bring that with you into future relationships, future jobs, future, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta own your own junk at some point.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't, then then what happens is it becomes a pattern.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think there's a self-awareness where we we choose to understand we're not victims um to the world around us, but maybe sometimes victims of our own poor choices.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless of what makes us victims, we have to choose to walk as victors.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the way we do that is one, accepting what Christ did for us, and then two, letting Christ go deeper inside of us to kind of throw off the old nature and what was old and leave that behind and walk in the new man.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think back on that time, Greg, and you know, I don't want to overstate, but I know you really well.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you went out to Pittsburgh really with everything.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: You you when you were calling me in a one-room apartment all by yourself, it was as if you had lost everything, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was yeah, like it was gone.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder, like, when you think about that time, um, and then you think about the reality that you felt called to vocational ministry.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have a moment in that window where you're like, dude, because of what I've been through, I am disqualified, I will never get to do this again.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, yeah.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, it's amazing the mind games that enter our, you know, we can know the narratives from the Bible of of all of the broken players that got to play a part in God's kingdom, but yet when we have our own brokenness, like we think our brokenness disqualifies us.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, shame is screams louder than faith.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, guilt screams louder than grace, like, and yeah, like totally didn't think I could be a pastor again.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I had a failed ministry.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I like just thought I was done.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And thank God for faithful friends who speak truth and help you see that poor choices or failures in our life are not disqualifiers.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some can be, but this in my case it wasn't.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, and I I I think that's the part that's interesting to me about your story is that sometimes when we walk the road of suffering, you you you can feel victimized by the pain.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: That wasn't my experience with you.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: I actually felt it was you you in that season, uh, the pain and all that you had gone through, all that you had lost, spoke to the reality of your future, which is there was a ton of shame, ton of like uh what I dreamt about life is done.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: I will never get to do that again.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it felt like you carried um you carried that for a little bit of a season.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think maybe this part could add some context to the podcast that will help.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it wasn't just a failed relationship.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I had gotten married and my wife had left me.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it and she didn't and it to no fault of like, and this is one of those where if I were to say like it was all her fault, and I was like, that's just not true.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have a failed marriage at 21 years old as a pastor, you think you're out of the game forever.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's you really do you wear a scarlet letter on your chest that everyone sees a guy who thought he was gonna go change the world, but now all that's left is like this disappointment.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and um and I think that context matters because it it really in my head told me you know, I can be around the things of God, but I can't serve God directly.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, bro.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think as I look back on that season of your life, um you definitely regularly communicated yeah, I'm disqualified.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Disqualified, just out of the game.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't get to play.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, done.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, and that's how I felt.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and a lot of that was partially like because of the broken thinking still of like religious structures that were in my head, like the way I kind of understood how to be used what by God, it was me having to be useful, me having to have something of merit, me being good in and of myself.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized no, it it it took a season of realizing no, it's it's God that's good, and he brings the good out of us, and um, he uses our story for his glory.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but I had to own my stuff, like I had to own my part of that, and so I wasn't a victim, I just had to own my stuff and then grow and see what God wanted to do.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and now on the other side of that, the redemption that God's brought into my story is beyond what I could have ever imagined, from my marriage now to my kids.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are they is that a band anymore?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, but actually, I don't know.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they're around or not.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So just there's a blast from the past, but this lyric just jumped in my head.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I used to remember certain lyric, like it's so cheesy to you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is so corny.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's all right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: God uses corny.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you have to walk the rocks to see the mountain view.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's just real, that's real life.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you gotta, if you want to get to the other side, sometimes there's some rocks on the journey.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And for God, he's brought beautiful redemption, but there was rocks along the way.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know what's interesting is uh, you know, Greg, we've hung out a few times, uh met each other in a Nordstrom once.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then uh uh it was a Nordstrom men's section in Schomburg.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: He came up and introduced himself to random.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we we got together in Rockford um and have talked and texted and stuff, not knowing that part of your story, but I have known many people who have been in that 21-year-old space that you have been someone who's been able to hold space for and not give up on when they were gonna give up on themselves.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always just like, or been around uh people who have just just like God ministry was over, and you were an encouragement to them.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I've always just been, man, that's like a Greg's just an empath.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is a has a superpower with that, but it's also like, oh gosh, the what was formed in walking those rocks to get to the summit.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the other side just is you've you've you've given that away well and held space for people in that in that season.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I appreciate it really well, you know.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, thank you.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's very kind of you to say.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's amazing how you know this is how God redeems part of our stories, by the way, though, too, is like he uses them to help other people, right?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so that's part of the redemptive nature of what we go through is other people have these things happen to them, whatever it is, and they need somebody to say, me too.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like me too.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've been there, I get that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I felt what you felt.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, and that was what Eric did with me, is like why he helped he helped me, and now I pay it for right.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But he was like, Hey, I understand some of what you're feeling, and like God doesn't, but if you know, me too, but God's called you, so you know some point it was like suck it up, buttercup, let's do this, you know, and jump back in.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love for you to talk about that because you know, you talk about it from a ministry standpoint, but let's just be honest.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are people who listen to this podcast who are experiencing a similar loss, and you do not have to be connected to ministry to feel like my life is over, everything I dreamt about is gone.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: It will never be the same, like it'll never be the same.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is the that the record starts to play, and it is a very uh that soundtrack plays loud and it plays consistent.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's over.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder for you, Greg, like at some point, I know you had this moment you described talking to God, but I think was there something beyond that?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Some point where you began to replace the soundtrack of uh this is over and I'll I'll always wear this scarlet letter.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh was there something, was there a moment or process change where you started switching out the soundtrack in your mind?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because, like I said, listen, there are a lot of people who are listening right now who literally are going through the same thing and they are like, dude, my life is over.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think of like Mark chapter four for a second.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let me let me go here.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: The disciples are with Jesus, they're in a boat, they're crossing from one side to the other, and a storm is raging.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think first and foremost, when trouble comes our way, it's it's it's a soundtrack, it's a storm.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's loud noises, there's lies, there's there's thick lightning bolts and thunder that's rattling our life.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we look at Jesus and he's taking a nap.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, dude, are you sleeping on me, Jesus?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you even care?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, there's this reconciliation of like, does Jesus care or not?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's step one, right?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So Jesus wakes up, he goes, He does care.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: But notice Jesus, like, yeah, like he can deal with the storm around you, but with the disciples, he was way more concerned with the storm like in them, not just the storm around them.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because he said, Why are you so afraid?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a soundtrack outside of you, but there is a soundtrack inside of you.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the one where, like, that's the next step, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Where, okay, whether there's storms, whether the waters get calm and the lightning stops or not, you have to reconcile, like, what is it?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I afraid?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I feel like my life is over?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I feel disqualified?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And usually it's a lack of, it's more eyes on yourself or your circumstances than your eyes are focused on the Christ who happens to be right in front of you, who happened to be there the entire time.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like he may have been silent, but he was always present.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, like at there's this point where, but Jesus deals with that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to put his finger on the source of our pain.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: He says to the disciples, why are you so afraid?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because he's trying to get to the heart of the matter with everyone.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's somebody out there and they're like, I'm totally out of the game, I'm disqualified.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: What Jesus would say is, Well, what is it?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you afraid of what are you afraid of?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it that's making you feel that way?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it your shame?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is it your guilt?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is it you think you're gonna fail again?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: What are you afraid of?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the beauty of that story, um, it does have a happy ending.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: They get from one side of the lake to the other.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny though, you have to flip to Mark chapter, I think it's five, one, and it it's like a little, just as they're like they got to the other side.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like storms do pass.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like some of you got to wait for that chapter or season in your life to end.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's many times another storm awaiting you on a different day, different boat.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: But like you, it we want God to take care of the storms around us, but I think it's way more important we deal with the storm that's in us and let Jesus deal with that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: That fear.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, so for me specifically, I was afraid that if I re- not, and I know this isn't everyone, I'm just talking about me being in vocational ministry, that if I entered vocational ministry again, I would fail.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've already failed once, and I don't know if I can take another failure on my ledger.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've already been disappointed.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I can handle more disappointment.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that was what I was afraid of.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I once I came to terms with that, and I chose the peace be still, like Christ is with me, like he speaks into my fear and he puts his finger right on it.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is what like launched me forward then to take that next step, if that makes sense.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, you know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I don't know why, but uh what what you were saying made me realize, you know, so often when we think about suffering, we kind of use it and you you you described it earlier as like we come to faith and we have suffering.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's almost like uh if you put it in the terms of like light and dark, it's like we we tend to phrase it day and night.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like day comes and then night comes.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: But like I was just reading Genesis 1, and it's like, and God said, Let there be light and there was light.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: God saw that the light was good, he separated the light from the darkness.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: God called the light day and the darkness he called night, and there was evening and there was morning the first day.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's uh, and the way you just describe that is like oh, like the day's gonna come.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what if like it's like evening, then there's day?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to look at it there was day and then there was night.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like this uh sense of yeah, like whatever evening it is, tomorrow's still coming.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, day is coming, the sun's gonna rise, you know.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, instead of like, oh, it's sunny, but you know, winter's coming, you know, like it's gonna get really, really dark and it's gonna get really, really bad.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but you can also flip it like the soundtrack and be like, it's true the other way too.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that inside outside of how you describe that, I just like that's really fascinating.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally see, because what what you're saying is what is that versus the Lamentations 3, like his mercies are new every morning.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like every day's a fresh start, but we but we focus if we're living in nighttime and only like think of like oh night's coming or right or whatever.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: But no, every day's a another a new day with God, regardless of what's happening around you.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like every day's a new day, new mercies for that day.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: One belief drives everything around here.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: If Jesus was right about God, life, and the soul, then it makes sense to rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Ready for the next step?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, follow is a 30-day guided study, one reading a day, one practice a day, on your own or with other people.
• 31:34
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• 31:46
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• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I think so often we like, and you you were saying this, which is like what stirred spurred it on for me, is like, oh, if I have one more failure, I don't think my ledger can handle it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and that's like a way of like bringing the evening into the new day rather than oh, that happened.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned from that like how were you, how did you not like if we're thinking sports language, how did you not play scared?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like an a player who comes back from like an injury and he's like, I'm afraid I'm gonna tear my ACL again if I get tackled, and so they just can't stay in the pocket.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: How did you, as you stepped back into that role, knowing full well like what you said, but also not carrying that in to where it kind of stunted you from being the fullest version of who God made you to be as a as a pastor and as a as then you know a husband and as a father and as a leader and friend.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that's that's a good question.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because I've never thought of it that way, but of uh of course, like when you're when you're coming off a torn ACL, it takes a while to get some more confidence with that leg underneath you.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's true in any enterprise.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you start putting faith in Jesus again to walk on water, those first walks are wobbly walks.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and um, you know, so part of part of like my the error of my ways in my youth, like it was always perfection over image perfection, like like facade.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Paint this picture you want the world to see.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let them get too close because then if they see the brush strokes, you know, and so we keep people at arm's length.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of maybe it's part of like just the way my personality's wired too.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think there was a shift, and it comes through humility and and just feeling some pain, where like that that same progress over perfection now, like it's just every day is a new day, every day is the next step.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't have to be perfect anymore.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to say all the right things.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be the perfect pastor, the perfect husband.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: But each day, can I try to be a little bit, a little bit better, a little closer to Jesus, live love, love, look a little bit more like him.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not gonna do I I won't achieve it today.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like, but if if if a little bit more progress today, then then and not worry so much what people think.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that for me became like the biggest 180 was that perspective of okay, I don't have to be perfect and do this right all the time, but I do have to take a step.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and let's celebrate the step.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like going back to the Mark Four analogy, like, you know, sometimes like if you think about the disciples in the boat, like and if if there was a destination from one side to the other, you can celebrate you're not where you used to be.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: You may not be where you want to be, but you're not where you used to be.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Man, celebrate that.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, come on, like you're on the journey.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're not, you are, you're on the way.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, like for me, like celebrate, hey, I'm not where I used to be.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm better.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, God's done things in my life.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've changed, I've grown, like I'm maturing in my faith.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I'm not where I need to be yet, but I'm but I'm growing.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so the worst thing you can do in those moments is jump out of the boat.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like to give up on yourself.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no rocket science to spiritual formation.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: You just stay with Jesus.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just stay with him.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Put some meat on the bone, though, with your story, because I think there's um, you know, you metaphorically for sure, but you did have to actually take a real step.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: There was something that you you look, you had a realization.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the realization was that um pain's part of life.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: That does not mean that God isn't real, he loves me, and um my life isn't over, but you're not still serving ice cream.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: You right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, you're not still serving ice cream as far as I know.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was a physical, as Carter likes to say, we need to touch the bottom of the pool.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: What was it for you?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because you had to take a step back into the arena.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it I don't know if you remember this, Eric, but you are pivotal in this story.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not just saying that just because I happen to be on this podcast.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I moved back to Rockford.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Roffford's home, moved back home.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Eric was serving at a different church at the time.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: We we were already friends, but like now we're physically reconnected, and I start serving at church with you.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm working as now my I got hired to be a state farm agent.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was gonna be a state farm agent.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, because my stepdad is a state farm agent, and I was like gonna take over his practice and all this stuff.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so in my once now, I had a good career path now, too.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: So now it wasn't like I had nothing.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, in a way, I had a good career path, and I'm like, okay, like full-time ministry isn't is a calling for believers.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about it doesn't have to be a vocation.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I can serve in church.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was following the Lord, so I'm doing that, but then I'm I'm serving with in you student ministry and and young adult ministry that you were leading at the church at the time, and we go out to Olive Garden.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember this conversation part.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's the finest Italian at the finest Italian restaurant.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, I feel like I betray my people every time I walk into that place.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're like, it's like an insult to my known as heritage, but whatever.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're at Olive Garden, and uh you I don't remember the exact words, but you're like, hey, do you ever feel called to ministry?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I said, dude, I yeah, of course.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I felt called to ministry, but I'm disqualified, I can't do that.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, bro, what are you talking about?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look at me, I'm back in ministry.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm doing this.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm doing this, you can do this.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I had it got me thinking, okay, is this real?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like so then all of a sudden I started thinking, wait, God, is this calling still there?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do I still want to go to church?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I went home, I told my mom and my stepdad, hey, I I kind of wonder still if if I want to be a pastor still.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: To which both my mom and my stepdad said, Oh, we've been waiting for you to tell us that for a while now.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: We we were hoping just because it's like legacy, family business, you could take this insurance agency.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: We were kind of hoping for that, but yet kind of known that God had something different for your life.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: We were waiting for that.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're gonna do it, you better do it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you're fired from stay farm effective immediately.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: You have to, this is a this is a true, this is real, dude.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not kidding.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, neighbor, you're fired.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're like, you that's not fair to hold on to this job when you know you want to pursue something else.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so now I and Eric, you were basically like, well, you can come and work with me, but I had a little, it was like a six-month waiting period.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: I forget what it was, but the church budget, like I forget exactly all that, but I was like, basically, you offered me a job, and and that was what got me back into it, is like, you offer me a job, and I've that was I started working again in ministry with you.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's this line, I don't know if I said it, but it was said to me, and I would imagine I said it to you in that season, but I I say it often now.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you look back in scripture, every person that you know, we we think about these um these traumas, these uh the suffering, and we'll we'll use the word scars, right?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like you you have the scars of life.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I I remember someone saying to me, because oftentimes you'll look at your scars and be like, man, uh I can't, uh I'll never be able to do what I thought I was gonna be able to do because of you know the wounds or the scars.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I had someone say to me, is well, as far as I see in scripture, every significant person God uses has a significant amount of scar tissue.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you're in good, you're in good company.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think that has been one of those things I've held on to is uh that's that is a a reality.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was a reality for you, for me, for so I mean all of us on this podcast have a level of wounding and suffering that sometimes makes you wonder um, am I gonna be able to go on?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna be able to live the life I've dreamt of?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I can say this as your friend now.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, I don't even know how many years, 16, 30 some years later.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, I've watched you walk the road and I've watched you put one foot in front of the other.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And where you are now, 10 years into a church plan, I remember, I remember when uh you decided you were gonna plant a church.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know I preached there within the first year for sure, but we worked together uh maybe a couple times.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was on your board for a season, but what I've watched is consistently living out that truth, playing that soundtrack that, hey, yes, the scars aren't going away.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Those aren't going away, but that does not have to define my future and where I'm headed.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna walk in this thing every day, consistently doing it, and now 10 years into your church plant, like you are changing people's lives.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: They are sitting underneath this teaching.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, bro, you you you couldn't have imagined it when you were serving ice cream and living in that one room apartment, and yet you just had a faith to take a step that day and live in the reality that day.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so incredibly proud of the journey you've been on.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so incredibly proud of the decisions you've made.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, man, you it it's pretty fun to watch.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that, Eric.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, your friendship and investment in my life has has made a huge difference.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say it's life-changing.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you the beauty of how stories work is like our stories are all interconnected, and so my story and Saline's story is a part of your story.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um like it's on your ledger too, you know.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, God, it's like that's what's beautiful about it, and it's all part of God's story, and um, and that's kind of the beauty of how the kingdom works, man, is we're all in this together, and I couldn't I wouldn't be here if it weren't for your investment and your belief and and you challenging me and speaking truth to me.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Greg, I want to go back and you said something, and I'm thinking about our listeners who are driving, um, and they heard you say, Hey, you're not where you uh want to fully be, but you're uh uh better than you were yesterday.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: So celebrate that.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and we can look back, you know, 20, 30, some years and and affirm the steps you took.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think most sincere Christ followers don't know how to celebrate the little winds.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um how how do you how do you tell your son Jack to celebrate the little wins?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or how do you tell the people of state?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Line, hey, celebrate the little ones.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because in some ways, people are so afraid, like, oh, it's gonna lead to pride.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna lead to pride.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna lead to arrogance.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and so we almost have this false humility, but we don't have those moments where we look back and go, man, thanks be to God.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've I've come farther along than how did how did you recognize that or name that or celebrate that?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's it's kind of this is a silly analogy, but it's once again, I think this is all of us being teachers, so maybe it's just how we think.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's like when you go to the gym and you start working out, like you you each day you're sore and you're beat up, but like you you just each day though, you're glad you're just putting in work, man.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're just glad you're there.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it may be hard when you're doing it, and and from one day to the next, you you maybe don't notice anything.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really stopped, and if you're if you're disciplined, if you're committed, and you really stop and look, you'd be like, hey man, after six months, like I I've definitely changed, I've grown, my body's different.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: That same way works in spiritual formation.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like the more time you immerse yourself in with Christ over time, you will change.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And just it's not maybe here's where the gym analogy falls short is like it's me lifting the weight.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in in the sense of growing with Christ and following Christ, it's just the immersion, like the staying with him, walking with him.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't, I don't remember where I heard this.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an Orberg thing or something, but like it's that whole idea of rags, like you're less resentful, anxious, greedy, and superior.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's these old rags that just come off of you.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see after six months, maybe of like being with Christ, hey, I I'm a little less resentful than I was, and celebrate that.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Be like, man, I was really holding on to a hurt.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it just that it doesn't have the same hook in me.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not you saying, I'm so awesome.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: I pulled the hook out.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, wow, look at what God has done.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look at what he's done in my life.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is, he's faithful.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, as I stay faithful to him, he is faithful to produce a good work in me.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so you just that's that whole idea of like it's okay to acknowledge the wins along the way.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not from one loss to the next or one big mountain to one big mountain.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the process.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: The road trip matters.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, that's that's the journey, right?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think um enough grace for today.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh enough uh I think oftentimes we are so fixated, and it depends on your personality, I suppose.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, fixated on the future.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Where will I be in 10 years?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: How will I get there?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: How am I gonna get out of this?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: How will this ever change?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you just need to walk through the thing today, just today, like enough for today.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: And these are like it's like compounding interest.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what happens.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's compounding kingdom interest.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Take that step, do what you have to do today.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, try to today uh put plenty of grief, plenty of worry.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: You have strength for today, and tomorrow we'll deal with tomorrow.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: But let's just get through today.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I just watched you do that, man.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's such a good word.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's easy in that day, in that moment when you're feeling down or sad to go and eat a gallon of ice cream, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like and spiritually eat a gallon, whatever that is, to go and do something that makes us try to feel good in a moment, but it's about choosing the hard right over the easy wrong.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we all fail at that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one's perfect.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's lots of days we choose the easy wrong.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know I have.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's it's one each day, not focusing on the nighttime, Steve, like you said, but looking for the knowing the morning is coming.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you feel like you're in the waiting room of life, like understand that it's a season and uh and that you're gonna just keep doing the hard right things you know to do.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Stay faithful, pray, get in the word.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: None of this is rocket science, it really isn't.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: We we tend to overcomplicate it.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: It it um and I think that's maybe because we're achievers and performers, we wanna do one thing to fix everything and be on the other side right away, but that would be to subvert so much work that God wants to do in us.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so enjoy what you're not where you used to be.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Celebrate that.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: You may not be where you want to be, but at least you're on the way.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Such a good word, man.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, bro, honestly, um, I would I could keep talking, um, but we're kind of at time anyway.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so grateful.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm grateful for you sharing your story.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are people who are going through it right now, and I think your message of just enough for today.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just the life that you've lived.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so proud and so grateful.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm just, yeah, man, thanks for sitting with us and chopping with us for a bit.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, love what you're doing.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Love what you're doing for real.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on, man.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and friends, go go give uh Greg a listen.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, their church is awesome in Rockford, it's stateline.church.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh really exciting what's happening in Rockford.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys, you guys got property and are building right now, right?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, literally right in the middle of a generosity initiative as we speak.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: This Sunday is our commitment Sunday.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we bought 19 acres of land and we're um planning on building a new building.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this is is quite an endeavor, but it's exciting, it's fun stuff.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's not about the building, it's not about drywall, it's about destiny, so right.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to expand square footage.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're care about stories, so it's just a tool to reach more people, man.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: This hope and love of Jesus.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we're doing.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Proud of you, proud of you, bro.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, thanks, thanks for the time.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right, appreciate you guys.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Take it with you, carry it into your week.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back soon with more.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.