Latest / Connect Call / EP04 - Healing Together: Strengthening Family Bonds Through Love with Heather Hayes

Transcript

EP04 - Healing Together: Strengthening Family Bonds Through Love with Heather Hayes · Connect Call

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hannah Brett with Connect Call.
0:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
0:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.
0:07
[SPEAKER_00]: One for more options.
0:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I Hannah, I'm the mum you spoke to the beginning of the semester about my son.
0:15
[SPEAKER_00]: She was going abroad to London.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you remember I found a bunch of vapes in his room.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He said he was holding for friends and of course I believed him.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I also thought by him going to London abroad, you know, some of his depression would dissipate.
0:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Also his alcohol use would slow up a bit.
0:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we discussed treatment options that things have gotten a little worse.
0:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to get my husband on the phone with you and me so we can talk about it.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: My husband's not really sold on treatment, but one of their programs we discussed that we can maybe look at for him to go during his holiday breaks so we're not
0:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I really don't want to hold them back with any of the schooling of possible.
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: If you can call me back, that'd be great.
0:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, this is Hannah Brett with Connect Call, and I am very excited about my next guest.
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Heather Hayes, you have not only been a great friend of mine for years, but you have, and you still are one of the leading interventionists in the world, and it is an honor to have you on the show.
1:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I was telling my guess before, the reason you know, I wanted to do
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always say this, I don't have a clinical background, but because I worked in the treatment industry for a bunch of programs over the years, I have received over many, many family calls over the years.
1:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So I always say I don't have a clinical background, but I have a PhD for picking up the phone.
1:40
[SPEAKER_02]: As I say, I connect and I collect and over the years, I've collected some of the best providers in the world in country and you are one of them, so I'm again very happy you're here.
1:47
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a big misconception about intervention, you know, whether
1:52
[SPEAKER_02]: People think, you know, it's just about that client or their trial, but it really is an intervention on the whole family unit.
1:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll talk about that.
2:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, basically for something to change, we'll have them call you and then I guess my question to you is when you're first because.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: My work, like I said, is done and I didn't do a great job and moving that muscle, right, to get my home to do much, which is fine, but that's why I look to you guys.
2:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess my question in the first question would be, when you do get a parent on the phone, and it's like the first phone call, and I guess what are your parting words with them in hopes that to send them off with something where it will sink in that they need to call you back
2:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like we have to start with the story, but then we have to start with the back story.
2:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
2:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And see it all into context.
2:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really hard when a parent reaches out and picks up that phone.
2:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the hardest thing they'll ever do.
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like the last thing they want to do.
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think also part of the, let me tell you all my child's good attributes is because it's been so painful for parents to have this little person that they bring
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: and watch them as they grow up to for, you know, off at school.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like this sort of like, but this is a good kid and it will happen to my good kid.
3:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, often parents don't want to feel like they're, you know,
3:26
[SPEAKER_01]: talking about their child in a negative way.
3:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And they aren't able to see that like we all have parts or parts of their kids that are loving and funny and kind and caring.
3:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we put all help issues come in or substance use, there becomes a new part that often acts like they don't care about the family.
3:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Or don't have morals and values.
3:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Or don't care about things like school.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really, really painful.
3:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think parents sure write.
3:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Not my kid.
3:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd rather be anybody else's kid.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And then almost back into, oh, my God, not my kid, because they've seen other people's kids die up.
4:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they have a family history where they grew up with it with an alcoholic parent, they know what it's like and sort of like,
4:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of not wanting to believe it.
4:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we haven't done a good job, but it grads through its level of really educating the world, educating parents, schools about what is substance use?
4:39
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it look like?
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, why is it an illness?
4:43
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the signs and symptoms?
4:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So people don't really know what it is.
4:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And the internet makes it more complicated because you go on and you Google and does my kid have it
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's got a friend that'll try and tell you what to do or not do.
4:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's just all this confusion.
5:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a lot can I just say something also and I think there's just this and I'm not just saying this and please no part of what I wanted to do the show is also, you know, not only getting those calls, but walking through my own journey with addiction, my own journey with mental health.
5:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not just saying this because I've struggled and I do struggle, it's the truth I think is really all addiction is in my opinion and I think others too in yours is it's mental health and trauma untreated right so I think it's this reframing like I tell parents instead of looking at it is like this is a bad thing we're calling Heather look at it as an opportunity because I swear if I
5:43
[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing is I wish somebody had intervened on me much younger, you know, and I mean, and because it's an opportunity to actually live a better life and actually look at ways of treating your mental health and trauma without having to self-medicate.
5:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's just reframing that, too, which there should be an earlier intervention in schools about that as well.
6:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I think with families call when parents call them their nervous and scared, whether they're calling you, calling me, you know, there are a few things they want.
6:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They want information.
6:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to have an understanding.
6:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Often they just want someone to listen because they aren't able, you know, because of shame, because of stigma, you've been able to talk to their friends about it or, you know, they're very selective
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, information.
6:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the place where we come in and help with some of those myths.
6:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I always say I hate the word intervention, which I do because we're going to hogtize somebody and drag them off.
6:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I know I know you know or that it's going to be an ambush and it isn't and doesn't have there a lot to do it and so helping them understand that, but then also most importantly being that piece of hope.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's hard because this is an illness where, you know, if you think you've got a thyroid issue or you think you've got on your arm, we go to a doctor and let the experts tell us, but we don't have that as much.
7:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have that with mental health, but it's not a go to with mental health and so there's a lot of, you know, again, because it's a brain disorder and we're looking at behavior.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets difficult.
7:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So parents do a lot of like, well, maybe this is normal teenage stuff.
7:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I did it when I was saying,
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: right it's because they got bullied and maybe they did get bullied and it's a painful or maybe you know so there's also a lot of not understanding and not understanding where to go and that the first step doesn't have to be go straight to treatment that the first step educating yourself having conversations with your loved one and really going from there and having more of an understanding of what the options are and what it looks like.
7:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I often find that when I'm referring a family to you guys, which I love, is it's not an immediate treatment placement situation.
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a lot of the reason why I'm sending to have their A's and associates is definitely because I know you guys and your team are going to clinically like wrap yourselves around the family and take your time with the family.
8:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I explained that to the family.
8:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, I'm referring you to Heather because it's not that you've done anything wrong or that exactly we're not going to do a snatch and grab in the middle of the night with your son.
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more about teaching you guys how to do this messaging, you know what I mean?
8:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And how to love differently, because
8:42
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, I mean, when it was me, my mom just looked at me and said, get in the car.
8:47
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and she was also just a, you know, afraid of me dying, right?
8:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And, but I think what you brought up is such a valid point.
8:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And I still can't wrap my head around it, but I always joke with my friends.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: My voice was never the steep.
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just been years and years and years of
9:04
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of trying to give some guidance and direction.
9:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, like I always used the analogy, I had this dad who was an oncologist.
9:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would say left and he would say right, you know, and go right, or I'd say let's go up and he'd go down.
9:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, I said to him, I was like,
9:25
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, you gave me my treatment plan, or I was, let's say starting to you know, feeling better and would you allow me to stop treatment or not follow direction?
9:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I could die, right?
9:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is no different.
9:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not even being dramatic when I'm saying it, you know, it is no different.
9:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, again, it's going to take more of us and more of a push with education and information.
9:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think also, I think they're speaking of misconceptions.
9:54
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times, including this mom that I spoke to, two things she had said to me, that always strikes the court.
9:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I get this a lot from families where they'll say, well, she doesn't want to go.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And if he doesn't want to go, he's not going to buy in.
10:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And why are we going to spend the money and do all this?
10:10
[SPEAKER_02]: My response is, and we'll talk, obviously, I'm going to throw this back at you, but in my experience in 18 years, and I've put pilots, physicians, adolescents, adults, young adults into treatment.
10:23
[SPEAKER_02]: including me, no one wants, no one's skipping through the doors, right?
10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: No one's wanting to do this because we're protecting our coping skills at all costs, right?
10:33
[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing piece is that I often get, and I want to talk about this as well is, you know, a lot of times, I will get a mom calling where their child is maybe withdrawing or
10:45
[SPEAKER_02]: coming home and detoxing, and they are not a good way, and so they want to strike while the iron's hot, because Johnny in that moment is like, okay, I'll go to treatment.
10:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always say to mom, you know, today he says that, you know, but what are we going to do about tomorrow?
11:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what are we going to do about him when he goes to treatment and you're not a
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You're doing a lot of the kind of upfront work before any of that goes down.
11:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, absolutely.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, it's impossible if someone chemicals are struggling mental health illness.
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They are thinking, isn't it?
11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're thinking, you can't make good decisions about your life and what you want to do.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So really the exception that a person is able to say, hey, I want to go get help today.
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then even when they do say that in moments,
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that execution like where do I go?
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: What does help look like?
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And the follow-through, which quickly goes back to, I don't really need that help.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Is, you know, there was a time you've spoken to this a minute ago, where, you know, it was like and death, but it was really, I mean, not easy, it's not the right word, but it was a lack of a better word, easy to say.
12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Well,
12:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, little Johnny, you know, maybe has it, maybe doesn't.
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: What happened is what the fentanyl epidemic is like, it is life and death.
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And if people wondered or said, it's not in my school, it's not in my community.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not in my place of worship, that made it undeniable.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that held up a mirror to a society that said, not in our homes, not here, and said, oh, here it is.
12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a painfully irreversible.
12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it is around it is, but we do know more about that, but it's still difficult for parents because we do have that myth that a person has to want treatment for it to work and one of the reasons I love doing interventions is because I believe that people have to have some kind of pressure either from their families, from their schools, from the legal system, from their jobs to go get help if you don't have pressure.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: then nothing's wrong and why would you stop right in that moment when people go and I mean almost everybody I know goes saying I don't want to go you'll see I don't have a problem right if you can get someone to a place where they can begin to stabilize get the drugs out of their out of their out of their brain get the you know whatever it is you know the dramatic
13:30
[SPEAKER_01]: two or three weeks in, a person make a decision about their health and their health care, their mental health care.
13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can't do it when you're in pain.
13:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it really is.
13:40
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I joke.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I used to say to my mom when she's like, you're going to treatment.
13:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I really want the treatment center.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's in Malibu with the horses and this
13:57
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't let our kids kind of pick the school they were going to.
14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to say, so why would this be any different?
14:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think just to quickly touch on and I hate not paid to and no shame to any parent today.
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there is also a difference in parenting.
14:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, back in the day, my mom looked at me.
14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: and part of my friends didn't give a shit what I wanted and didn't care about my say in this, you know, she was watching me die.
14:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she made it really easy with the leverage, you know, she just cut up the credit cards, took away any kind of funding and said, go to treatment.
14:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I wanted to walk, she said, walk, I'm not coming to get you.
14:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess when that's what?
14:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We now need so much more is the help from people like you to really protect and and work with these families on how to do their messaging completely different, you know, I absolutely well, you know, first and they have to have that understanding too, you know, all the research shows.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: that a person doesn't have to want treatment or being a agreement for it to be successful.
15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and that's an important, you know, piece of information to help them who's understand, you know, that very few want that.
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want it when I went to treatment.
15:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But a few weeks in, I thought, oh my God, I'm going to die.
15:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think parents say that about wanting so it's more comfortable for them?
15:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, but I also think that there's a lot of, um, there are a lot of myths out there.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of people who say, well, it's not going to work until you want it.
15:30
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Which there's a place for that, but it's not until you get to a place where you can think about and understand deeply what it is that you are saying you do or don't want.
15:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
15:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And even those clients I see in treatment who leave early or and I did it to be able to manipulate your parents still.
15:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think when I realized there was nowhere to go and there was no one coming to get me and there was no car, no apartment to go home to it.
16:01
[SPEAKER_02]: forces you to dig yourself out of this and to really like surrender, you know?
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And as tough as it is, it's, you know, that's what I see too.
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of families like, well, they, they left and I'm like, well,
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you give him a car?
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, did you open the door?
16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's why I think this work is so important.
16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I do also want to touch on and you can tell me what you think is, as I was saying before addiction really is just like mental health and trauma and treated, but we will go and deal with a lot of cases now today where it's strictly mental health.
16:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there are the cases where they are struggling in self-medicating with substances and other things.
16:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And so my question to you is, do you approach
16:45
[SPEAKER_02]: that family and intervention, any differently.
16:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Every family's different.
16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Every ever is different and individualized.
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone is in full-blown psychosis, either a drug-induced psychosis or there's no drug this air, but they're having a psychotic break.
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a different kind of intervention.
17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not sitting around in a circle, reading letters, you may try, but the often doesn't work,
17:15
[SPEAKER_01]: visits with a person to get them to feel safe.
17:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be finding the one person that they trust the most.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be looking at, again, if someone's unsafe, we may need to look at outside systems to help protect them in the moment so that we can help get them to a place where they can begin to think more clearly.
17:34
[SPEAKER_01]: With other, again, with other mental health issues, there are some that you can come in and do more
17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: When there's trauma involved, I never like to use the surprise method because trauma survivors don't like surprises.
17:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You must have missed out on any way.
17:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't like the surprise event.
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, on went off or a hurricane devastated my hometown or I was molested at night.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So surprise can be very triggering.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there are ways that you have to come in and really be trauma responsive.
18:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, see the person not coming in is like this person has power over you and we're gonna coerce you and of course you to go because we're gonna take everything away from you.
18:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's retraumatizing someone.
18:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But to really come in from that place of mutuality where there's respect, there's more in this together,
18:33
[SPEAKER_01]: families in there, they've got things that they're working on, that they're going to be better accepted and hard.
18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of those is that they can't sit around and watch you and hurt yourself anymore.
18:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And we need to get help.
18:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's what helps going to look by.
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's what you can expect.
18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's some choices for you to make, but that there's hope.
18:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And we love you.
18:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're coming from that place of deep love and concern.
18:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're learning
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: how to react differently and do things differently.
19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the things we've done, even though I'd love, haven't worked in how it'd been helpful.
19:10
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's good.
19:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's something you touched on that I'm going to be really driving home on this podcast called Connect Call.
19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Big reason why I want to do it is as many great helpers are out there, there's a lot of not so great helpers or want to be helpers out there that aren't licensed who aren't trained who with all due respect are
19:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Harry from the recovery meeting who's now an interventionist and why I work with professionals like yourself is I take this very seriously and I'm not just gonna send in Tom Dick and Harry and for especially and and you know an intensive and intervention where we're dealing with mental health you know or I'm not gonna hire any transport to transport
20:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and we'll talk about that more as well.
20:02
[SPEAKER_02]: We've just seen it time in time again, and especially these cases are getting more and more complex that you really have to do your due diligence and really, and that's why I hope people will look at shows like this, or, you know, find the helpers, or the people that they can trust to ask for her referrals instead of which I hate parents don't go online and just start looking, you know?
20:27
[SPEAKER_02]: try to find a trusted professional that you can ask for referrals because, again, you know, there's a lot of interventionists out there, but there's very few, very few, like yourself, that are really credentialed to do this work, you know, and it can really go left and really badly.
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's going to tell you having, you know, so I have a undergrad degree in psychology, I have a master's degree in psychology, I've taken multiple trainings on licensed and intervention is not an entry level position.
21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it is terrifying to me that that's a lot of people's entries into this world that they take the shortcut that they go and take a two-day training and suddenly they're an interventionist.
21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Because intervention is done, if done properly, you are responsible for every person in that room.
21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about just going in and coercing somebody and getting them to go to treatment.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you're looking at mental health, I mean, my personal belief is that no one without a clinical degree being a master's degree or above should be working with mental health clients.
21:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't even, you know,
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's questionable about whether you should work with someone with substance abuse either if you don't have a formal training, and just because you went through recovery yourself doesn't mean you know how to help others.
21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's different.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I got arrested, which I am and had a lawyer.
21:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean because I've been arrested and had a lawyer I know how to
22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: be an attorney.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it doesn't qualify me for that.
22:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's training that goes into it.
22:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone doesn't have a license or a clinical degree, there's no recourse.
22:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if someone does something wrong, does something unethical.
22:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You, there's no place to file a complaint.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really like the wild, wild west.
22:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And anybody out there can hang up a single and call themselves an interventionist.
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And we, there's a really a need, a desperate need for regulation around this.
22:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Dispute the spirit need for regulation, because he will get hurt, families get hurt, you know, and we're talking about health care.
22:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Where else in health care do we have non-trained professionals go in?
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I mean, there's pure support.
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, pure support is, I've survived cancer.
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to, let me share my experience through the home.
22:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, let me tell you where to go for treatment.
23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you what's wrong with you.
23:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you what you need to do.
23:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's a big difference there.
23:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I tell families that with the price point too, I'm like, you know, so and so may be like only a couple thousand dollars, but you know, these are the questions you need to be asking and some other red flags, I'm just going to throw it out there is if you're working with a treatment center and they're like, hey, one of my staff members can be your transport or your intervention is question, lots of things.
23:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Question, very questionable question left.
23:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
23:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and it's also, again, I have, I have come across some colleagues over the past 18 years that are doing transports or maybe doing some interventions that.
23:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think our lives are not ready to, you know, I mean, it's such a, I, I wouldn't, it's such a, like you said, you're taking on someone's life and the family's lives.
23:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just, I don't think people realize how major that is.
24:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like going into surgery and, you know, saying, well, I got my certificate in biology.
24:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know what I mean?
24:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just so,
24:11
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, thank you, and I really just want to stress that and I will stress this through this whole show is really to give families really viable steps on how to find the good guys and the credible guys and the licensed people that can really be helpful.
24:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
24:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So all kinds of certifications you can get.
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all kinds of places you can go for a two-day certification, often online, which means, you know, you sit, you listen, you maybe take a little test at the end and suddenly you've got a certification.
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And it does not qualify, you know, and maybe educated you, but they're often there's no supervision.
24:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm always wary of people who, like,
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I put my clinical degree, my graduate degree, I put my license, and that's really about it.
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I put CIP, which is certified in intervention professional.
25:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But...
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the biggest thing I have is my LPC license professional counselor and my master's degree.
25:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So if someone has all this other, it's just confusing.
25:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not more as bad.
25:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I find people are lying on their websites.
25:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I had some counselor and Florida ones say he was a PhD and this and that and I looked him up and he wasn't.
25:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess someone just sent me a link before this call
25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, you know, I haven't, but I find it interesting that they call themselves a school psychologist, but they don't have a PhD.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you look at most states and you look at the American Psychological Association, you can't call yourself a psychologist if you don't have a PhD or a CID.
26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, bring them to that.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, there's a lot of, you know,
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: red flags.
26:05
[SPEAKER_01]: People call themselves counselors or saying they have a counseling services when they don't have a degree and they're not licensed as a counselor.
26:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't even put MSW after your name if you have a master's in social work and you're not licensed.
26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That is, I guess they're at the cold code.
26:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess to keep things simple for families.
26:33
[SPEAKER_02]: just a couple go to thoughts about how to weed out the good and the bad and like what are some things to fur family to look at.
26:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know we said about the credentials and definitely the like, but you know, when families are doing their due diligence and asking these thumbs or individuals, you know, some questions, can you think of a one or two that might like
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have graduate school training?
27:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
27:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have licenses, state licenses?
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your background?
27:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Should they show the state licenses?
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can always, if someone says they have it, you can always look it up on the state website.
27:15
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I think another great question is do you have other family members that you've worked with that we can talk to?
27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
27:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Testimonies.
27:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
27:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I love testimony.
27:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no better.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: right way of finding out and I say this and it seems like the treatment centers you've worked with.
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not let me talk to treatment centers you've worked with for a reference.
27:41
[SPEAKER_01]: But families that you've worked with see what a burden is that our clients are our families and that we don't that and we make the best decisions we can to our families because we work for that.
27:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
27:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, at the, you know, across the board in health care, you know, online, if a doctor owns an ambulance company as well, and everyone of his patients leaves his office in an ambulance, then did they need to go in an ambulance, or did you want to make money from it for his ambulance company?
28:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
28:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got a connection, you know, particularly a financial connection to a treatment center.
28:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, again, the ethical dilemma besides the fact that it's now illegal and goes against the anti-patient program laws in most states, is that, and federally, is that it cloud your, I love you have there, cloud your ability to make a good decision to it for your family.
28:35
[SPEAKER_01]: If they have three facilities I can send them to and one of them, you know,
28:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Ayes me or gives me big gifts.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I really going to pick the right one or I'm going to pick the one that.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, which my ex was a concierge that a really big hotel and we I would joke with her and say like.
28:54
[SPEAKER_02]: how do people trust you?
28:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You're getting paid by the restaurants to speak up their names.
28:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of the same same, but the way you need to look at it is like, especially what I'm dealing with young adults, and we were dealing with college kids, right?
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd always say that the mom and dad and the parents and the family, this is like a lot of money to go to school, right?
29:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So you did your due diligence, you did a tour, you looked the ins and outs of that because this is a big check you're about to write.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
29:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm asking you to do that kind of same thing with treatment.
29:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of times I watch and I'll also stress this and I'm sure you will to never do your due diligence or hopefully don't do it in crisis because then there's this urgency to get this figured out in a day and a lot of times I rarely see that workout for everybody.
29:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the other thing is that like reviews, like how do you do that do diligence?
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you know what questions it asks?
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Like reviews can be very
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: confusing.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know the federal trade commission has been doing a lot of work with health care to look at that.
30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can buy positive reviews for yourself.
30:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You can buy negative reviews for other people.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not junk and you.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it's not just treatment.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's medical care.
30:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's the best surgeon?
30:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's the best veterinarian?
30:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're dependent on all those reviews,
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: their faulty false reviews.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So the federal trade mission is really trying to look at how they can put a stop to this.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: There's an incredible number, and I forgot what it was, but it's in the billions of money on health care that is spent in ways that it shouldn't have been because of those reviews that are not genuine and authentic.
30:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
30:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know
30:49
[SPEAKER_02]: when I worked for adolescent programs or young adult programs, I used to not laugh at the bulk of the reviews.
30:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We're disgruntled clients while they were going to read them.
30:59
[SPEAKER_01]: We're in place, warmer employees, you know, there's that.
31:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, whenever I got a parent, they're like, you're reviews aren't great.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I go, well,
31:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm telling you right now, it's typically the client, you know, leaving the review and the best thing is, and we used to offer the same thing.
31:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk to some families who we've had great outcomes with, okay?
31:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And we would try to connect again a family from the same area of the country or whatever, and that is the best, you know, best way to really hear from that you're doing the good work.
31:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it will even connect them with families where their loved one didn't go to treatment right away.
31:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
31:35
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: How were they supported?
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How did it eventually happen?
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: What did we as a team do to help them navigate a difficult intervention?
31:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And things that didn't go as planned, but then ended up with a better ending than, you know, then we started with.
31:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It's good, too.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I guess I always, also, you know, I understand a lot of the calls I get.
32:00
[SPEAKER_02]: People may not have the resources, right?
32:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And they may not have the resources to maybe hire an interventionist like yourself.
32:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess I always try to want to be able to give steps and tools to those families that
32:16
[SPEAKER_02]: financially or maybe cannot do this, but really want to get their loved one into treatment.
32:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess my next and last question really is, you know, two parts.
32:26
[SPEAKER_02]: One, we always hear families need to do their work.
32:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, for this still kind of work.
32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess the other piece of that is for those families that, you know, speak to you and are not able to hire you.
32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some,
32:41
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, not all my families love out one on and I get that, but like what are some support groups or books or steps that you can maybe offer them if they're not able to so we can give them something, you know.
32:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, SAMHSA's got a website that goes through and talks about different resources out there.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: There's power and education and knowledge and having an understanding, so reading books on brain chemistry, reading books on what it's like to be a parent of an addicted child or the spouse of an addicted, you know, husband or wife,
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: and really begin to educate yourself around it.
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're often places where you can get help.
33:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, some people have pastoral counselors or rabbis that can help with this and are familiar with resources.
33:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But it gets to the bigger issue, which is that we don't have a lot of resources out there of people who don't have resources.
33:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So it'll cover where the funds, you know, and that's a...
33:39
[SPEAKER_01]: big, big problem in the United States.
33:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the statistics are like, we only, you know, of all those people who have substance use disorder, was it 5% 10% are able to get help.
33:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we could even move that to 15%, I mean, think of the numbers of people that we'd be helping.
34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's one of the things that we should be really looking at is how do we,
34:04
[SPEAKER_01]: get good, the goal that is based, treat my out there to those in need who don't have the funds and resources.
34:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes, not having the funds and resources also means they have to continue working.
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we have more ethical, robust, clinically savvy outpatient?
34:31
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an episode.
34:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm definitely going to talk about two as an option is, you know, all of that, you know, right.
34:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And just talk about how we can do wrap around maybe treatment from the outside.
34:42
[SPEAKER_02]: If we can't do residential if we can't do this, but I agree with you.
34:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It was interesting.
34:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually filming right now from the UK.
34:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you know about the UK, and I mean, I'm a dual citizen, we have the NHS, which is the national health system or services.
34:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I shouldn't know this national health system.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And at times you have to wait for those services, but what I have loved about watching and being apart and living over here sometimes in utilizing them.
35:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, for instance, I was talking to one of the executives from actually NHS and I was working with the program where we were treating physicians, right?
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And pharmacists and all that and dentists.
35:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was asking them, like, what is their process with their professionals when they get into trouble?
35:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And it blew me away that this woman told me that, oh, well, they get offered three residential stays at first.
35:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they don't do well with that, and that's free cost.
35:40
[SPEAKER_02]: residential treatment, then we'll look outside sources.
35:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the government and the taxes and everything, but they have come up with this system, and it's just, and so I definitely
35:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can get on with soapbox all day long about issues that we have in our country with funding cuts and all that with mental health or, you know, it's a mental health issue not a gun issue, but we're not doing anything to support mental health right now right and you're cutting back on Narcan, you know, that's being, you know, provide really there and yeah.
36:14
[SPEAKER_02]: it's so, but I, you know, I want to say definitely thank you for being on the show.
36:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always, and I still do Heather, I barely, you know, make a move without checking with you person on everything and I've just always looked up to you over the years and, you know, you were very lucky in this industry to have professionals like yourself, you know?
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Love, love, love having you as a good good friend, and I love having you as a professional.
36:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have a lot of fun together.
36:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We do.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We also anguish a lot about things that could be done differently together and I'm really glad that you're here helping fight this fight.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you all for being on connect call tonight and we'll be seeing you at the next episode.
36:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for informational and educational purposes only and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical health professional or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
37:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
37:24
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider or emergency services in your area.
37:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
37:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
37:44
[SPEAKER_02]: We're here to support you every step of the way.