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From Prison to Purpose: Restoring Hope for Incarcerated Youth in Central America · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the way God is working in the
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  Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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  Speaker 1: that hinder Christian's from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm
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  Speaker 1: joined today by Greg Harris. Greg is the executive director
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  Speaker 1: of Counteract International, and he's written a book called Counteract
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  Speaker 1: Walking alongside incarcerated youth in Central America From Prison to Purpose,
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  Speaker 1: and so we're going to be talking a little bit
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  Speaker 1: about the book today. We're also going to be talking
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  Speaker 1: about Counteract International and I'm just happy to welcome Greg here.
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  Speaker 2: Greg, how are you this morning?
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  Speaker 3: Hey, James, I'm fine. Thanks for the invitation, Glad to
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  Speaker 3: join you on your podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Asked absolutely. This is the second time we're meeting. Greg
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  Speaker 1: is part of a Bible study I run on Wednesday
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  Speaker 1: mornings and so we we spent the wee hours together
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  Speaker 1: this morning already.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're leading us through Hebrews, which is a great study,
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  Speaker 3: so thanks for doing that as well.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely well, Greg, tell us a little bit about Counteract
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  Speaker 1: International before we jump into the book, like, give us
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  Speaker 1: a sense of what this ministry is. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: we got the chance to talk at in our be
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  Speaker 1: convention and you told me a little bit about the
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  Speaker 1: history of Counteract when you came on. And I think
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  Speaker 1: that'd be helpful for viewer or for listeners and viewers
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  Speaker 1: just to understand what this is and where it emerged from.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely well.
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  Speaker 3: About twenty five years ago, a businessman from here in
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  Speaker 3: the Hampton Roads, Virginia area, one to serve orphans, and
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  Speaker 3: he was part of a international business network YPO if
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  Speaker 3: people know what that is, Young Entrepreneurs organization. He sent
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  Speaker 3: out a message to his international network asking where he
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  Speaker 3: could serve orphans because that had been on his heart.
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  Speaker 3: He got one response from somebody in El Salvador who said, Hey,
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  Speaker 3: we have some orphans down here that could use some help.
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  Speaker 3: Hop on a plane, come down, I'll show you around.
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  Speaker 4: So he did.
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  Speaker 3: He went down, he looked around and where he saw
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  Speaker 3: the greatest need was in the government run orphanages, so
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  Speaker 3: they were just in horrible conditions. So he came back,
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  Speaker 3: got his local network together to start raising money to
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  Speaker 3: go back on a trip to start doing infrastructure projects,
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  Speaker 3: repairing sewer lines and toilets and light fixtures and so forth,
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  Speaker 3: so these kids could have a better condition of living.
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  Speaker 3: And soon thereafter the government of l Salvador said, well,
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  Speaker 3: we also have these juvenile detention centers that we really
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  Speaker 3: could use help in, so he started working there as well,
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  Speaker 3: and that's how the mission grew, both in government run
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  Speaker 3: orphanages and government run juvenile detention centers. So that has
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  Speaker 3: been the niche over the last twenty five years is
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  Speaker 3: to partner with the governments of El Salvador, Honduras and
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  Speaker 3: now Guatemala to work in their juvenile detention centers. And
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  Speaker 3: about twelve years ago, soon after I came on board,
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  Speaker 3: the government started shutting down their orphanages, their public run orphanages,
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  Speaker 3: but God started opening more doors to additional juvenile detention centers.
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  Speaker 3: So we went all in on the juvenile detention centers
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  Speaker 3: and in a few months it went from about like
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  Speaker 3: I said, fifty to fifty orphanages juvenile detention centers to
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  Speaker 3: ninety percent juvenile detention centers, and now we're totally in
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  Speaker 3: juvenile detention centers and have built the ministry.
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  Speaker 4: Around that model.
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  Speaker 3: And in the course of that we changed the name
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  Speaker 3: from Orphan Helpers to Counteract International because these youth have
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  Speaker 3: faced so many things and adversities and obstacles and challenges
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  Speaker 3: in their life. They just need help someone sind beside
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  Speaker 3: them to help guide them through those challenges.
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  Speaker 2: And we didn't really get into those at an NRB.
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  Speaker 1: But when I don't know that, I have a great
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  Speaker 1: context for juvenile detention centers. You know, I knew friends
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  Speaker 1: even in the States who went to JUVIE, but I
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  Speaker 1: never really understood what it was. You know, you just
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  Speaker 1: get the sense that this is a prison for youngsters.
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  Speaker 1: Is that really what it is? And if so, what
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  Speaker 1: sort of what sort of crimes are leading people there?
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  Speaker 1: Is it that same sort of span we might think
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  Speaker 1: of to something you know, relatively innocent like theft or
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  Speaker 1: something like that, up to more violent crimes?
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  Speaker 2: Is that the range of it it is?
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  Speaker 3: And they find them in the detention centers from eleven
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  Speaker 3: twelve years old. There spoke, many of them supposed to
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  Speaker 3: be out when they turn eighteen. El Salvador has an
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  Speaker 3: intermediate center for youth who've reached eighteen but still have
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  Speaker 3: time left on their sentence. So it's in between the
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  Speaker 3: adult correctional centers and the juvenile detention centers, and a
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  Speaker 3: lot of times they'll keep them in there beyond eighteen,
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  Speaker 3: quite frankly, so that they don't go to the detention centers.
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  Speaker 3: So typically twelve to eighteen, but it can be a
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  Speaker 3: little younger, little older. And for your question about offenses, yes,
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  Speaker 3: it is everything from extortion extortion. Extortion is rampant in
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  Speaker 3: those communities, but it is also homicides and very violent
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  Speaker 3: crimes and a lot of gang crimes as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk a little bit about you know, in
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  Speaker 1: the book, you deal with the situation, and so I'm
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  Speaker 1: wondering if you can just help people get a sense
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  Speaker 1: of the context. Again, you know, living in the States,
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  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we don't have a good sense of
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  Speaker 1: what life is like in some of these other international
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  Speaker 1: areas where this would be a problem in need of
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  Speaker 1: a real solution.
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  Speaker 2: So maybe paint that picture for us.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know, even stepping back further. You know,
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  Speaker 3: many times we hear of his kids as animals, as gangsters,
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  Speaker 3: and quick to label them without really taking a step
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  Speaker 3: back and looking at where they grew up, the environments
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  Speaker 3: that they encountered. And so yeah, there again the northern
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  Speaker 3: triangle of Central America's hunteras El Salvador and Guatemala, which
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  Speaker 3: has historically been a very violent place. In the last
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  Speaker 3: few years that has changed, particularly in El Salvador under
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  Speaker 3: the new president, crime has been brought to record lows.
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  Speaker 3: But again, historically all three countries were typically in the
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  Speaker 3: top ten of murder capitals nationwide homicides per capita. And
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  Speaker 3: so these kids grow up in this environment of crime
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  Speaker 3: and violence. There's lots of poverty, you know.
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  Speaker 4: And also lack of education.
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  Speaker 3: Education levels are on average just a little over six
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  Speaker 3: years of education for an adult, where in the US
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  Speaker 3: we have, you know, about thirteen years average education for
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  Speaker 3: an adult. And broken homes, so many single mom homes.
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  Speaker 3: You will find the male in the house has either
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  Speaker 3: left the family for someone else, has left and run
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  Speaker 3: to the US to seek work, has died, or is
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  Speaker 3: in prison, or is alcoholic.
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  Speaker 4: And so these kids.
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  Speaker 3: Grow up without strong home where they come from and
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  Speaker 3: so those are the things, the poverty, the crime and violence,
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  Speaker 3: the lack of education, the lack of opportunity, lack of
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  Speaker 3: opportunity that so many are in go into informal jobs.
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  Speaker 3: There are not a lot of formal job opportunities. So
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  Speaker 3: when you compile all that on top of each other,
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  Speaker 3: these kids are have a battle the time they're born
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  Speaker 3: and that they're facing these adversities.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know whether you know, but you talked about
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  Speaker 1: the government sort of shuddering a lot of the government
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  Speaker 1: run orphanages. It would seem that that would have an
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  Speaker 1: adverse effect on what's going on in the juvenile detention
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  Speaker 1: centers to some degree?
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  Speaker 2: Was that the case?
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  Speaker 1: Did you see sort of an increase of kids that
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  Speaker 1: were essentially orphaned, but they end up in the juvenile
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  Speaker 1: detention center? So you are still working with a lot
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  Speaker 1: of folks who would have been orphans, you're just working
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  Speaker 1: with them in a different context.
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  Speaker 3: Well, well, that's right, and but that's also in the
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  Speaker 3: US too, right, Yeah, I mean kids who grew up
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  Speaker 3: in foster care. It's the crossover population from If they
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  Speaker 3: don't find a good stable foster home, they end up
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  Speaker 3: going in and out of foster homes, in and out
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  Speaker 3: of juvenile detention centers, and back and forth between the
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  Speaker 3: child welfare system and the juvenile justice system. So that's
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  Speaker 3: the reality when there's no one there guiding them.
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  Speaker 2: And so how much of that do you deal with?
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  Speaker 1: I know when we talked previously, you talked a lot
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  Speaker 1: about the relationships that you've built and that being really central.
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  Speaker 1: Though a lot of the work you're doing, you work
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  Speaker 1: pretty closely with the government.
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  Speaker 2: Then in these scenarios, yes.
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  Speaker 3: Right, So it is our niche is partnering with the governments.
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  Speaker 3: They allow us to go into their detention centers and
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  Speaker 3: to provide faith based education, life skills, leadership mentoring. We're
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  Speaker 3: doing some computer skills, some English classes, trauma counseling. So
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  Speaker 3: they are open. They welcome our faith based model into
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  Speaker 3: their system. And because they know they can't do it
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  Speaker 3: all and they need to partner with other organizations to
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  Speaker 3: help provide these services.
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  Speaker 4: So that's where we start.
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  Speaker 3: We start by going in and sending in teachers full time,
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  Speaker 3: and we're in thirteen juvenile detention centers across all three countries,
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  Speaker 3: and the teachers go in every day to start working
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  Speaker 3: with the youth and really our focus is the juvenile
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  Speaker 3: because they're at their lowest and least at that point
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  Speaker 3: in time. They've been arrest they've built up through all
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  Speaker 3: these conditions. Now they find themselves locked up in these
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  Speaker 3: juvenile detention centers that are really frankly harsh places, and
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  Speaker 3: they are very vulnerable and open to seeing if there's
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  Speaker 3: a new path in life, and so our team mentors
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  Speaker 3: them and directs them to another way. And it's all
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  Speaker 3: built quite around the book when Helping Herbs and Helping
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  Speaker 3: Herts talks about restoring the four key relationships. We're not
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  Speaker 3: just in there to provide vocational training or purely mentoring,
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  Speaker 3: but connecting the kids to their creator, to themselves, helping
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  Speaker 3: them develop their self worse self dignity, to restoring relationships
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  Speaker 3: with their family and friends. Forgiveness is a huge issue
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  Speaker 3: that when you ask what's most impactful to them, they
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  Speaker 3: took about forgiveness because it has really been they've grown
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  Speaker 3: up an eye for an eye and revenge mentality. And
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  Speaker 3: then also the last relationship of contributing to the community
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  Speaker 3: at large, to be restoring their communities and using the
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  Speaker 3: gifts that God has given them to improve their neighborhoods
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  Speaker 3: instead of taking away and destroying those communities.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's amazing that the governments don't
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  Speaker 1: have any problem bringing in a faith based organization like that.
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  Speaker 1: Sort of the desperation they're feeling is that they're going
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  Speaker 1: to take help from any sector they can find. And
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  Speaker 1: so because my understanding is, and I just did a
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  Speaker 1: little looking in some of the countries you all are in,
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  Speaker 1: they'd be primarily Catholic, if not more charismatic, just in composition.
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  Speaker 1: If we were going to name a Christian denomination, that
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  Speaker 1: is that your experience with it or do I have
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  Speaker 1: that right?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And you'll you'll go into the they're heavily
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  Speaker 3: Catholic countries, and you'll go into the government offices in
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  Speaker 3: the conference room, and you will have pictures of Mary
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  Speaker 3: and of the Lord's Supper and right there in the
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  Speaker 3: conference room. So it's it's a lot different than than
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  Speaker 3: here in the US.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just sort of an openness to it that's
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  Speaker 1: that's not here. And the humanitarian aspect of what you're
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  Speaker 1: doing is certainly welcomed. But then also the gospel aspect
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  Speaker 1: is not opposed because it's it's sort of a country
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  Speaker 1: already steeped in a lot of that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And a lot of these kids some have
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  Speaker 3: had exposure uh to faith, either a grandparent has taken
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  Speaker 3: them to mass.
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  Speaker 4: Or something that.
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  Speaker 3: But but it was never really uh in great you know,
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  Speaker 3: again without the man in the house, who who is
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  Speaker 3: really a band in the family, these kids let them
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  Speaker 3: grow up without direction, and then they turned to the streets,
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  Speaker 3: right they turn They turned to the streets looking for belonging,
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  Speaker 3: for safety.
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  Speaker 4: Uh.
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  Speaker 3: And that's that's the lure that really attracts them to
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  Speaker 3: join in the street games.
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  Speaker 1: Really interesting, I wondered if you talk, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: book is great. I think it gives a really clear
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  Speaker 1: picture of your ministry. Why don't we start with sort
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  Speaker 1: of why you felt now was a good time to
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  Speaker 1: write the book. You guys have obviously made a number
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  Speaker 1: of transitions. You've been there for twelve years, you've made
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  Speaker 1: this shift over to the gymnal detention centers.
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  Speaker 2: But why now? Why the book?
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  Speaker 3: Well, we've collected stories over the years and testimonies of
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  Speaker 3: these youths, and we just had they were sitting there
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  Speaker 3: and we really wanted to show God's amazing grace, how
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  Speaker 3: he is transforming in their lives, not to keep it
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  Speaker 3: hidden under a bushel and to ourselves, but to share,
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  Speaker 3: to testify, to provide a testimony of what God is doing,
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  Speaker 3: how he's taking some of these lives that people have
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  Speaker 3: written off and that they you know, society has said
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  Speaker 3: these kids are good for nothing, but to show no,
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  Speaker 3: they still have work. They are created by God, and
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  Speaker 3: that with some mentoring and some guidance education, that they
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  Speaker 3: can be productive members of society. So we said, let's
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  Speaker 3: let's put that down and describe the model and share
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  Speaker 3: what we are doing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what, Uh, you talk a little bit about the
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  Speaker 1: battle within in chapter three? It was one of my
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  Speaker 1: I would say, it's one of my favorite chapters. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not exactly sure why it resonated, but it did. And so,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, talk a little bit about what you
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  Speaker 1: mean by the battle within and uh, and then we
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  Speaker 1: can kind of have a little bit more of a
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  Speaker 1: conversation about it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So we talked about the the exterior battles, you know,
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  Speaker 3: what they are facing in the environment, but they're also
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  Speaker 3: facing the battle within. Okay, you you've encountered all this,
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  Speaker 3: all this challenge.
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  Speaker 4: What are you going to do with it.
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  Speaker 3: You know, are are you going to uh just continue
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  Speaker 3: to live in a in a life of poverty which
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  Speaker 3: you've seen all around you, or are you going to
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  Speaker 3: try to run to the US? You know before the
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  Speaker 3: aren't cracked down in the last year on border the
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  Speaker 3: you know, the boards wide open and welcoming of people
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  Speaker 3: who from Central America. So are you going to get
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  Speaker 3: on the beast the train and go with the coyotes
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  Speaker 3: and the cartels to try to get to the US
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  Speaker 3: which is a risky journey in itself and there are
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  Speaker 3: certainly no guarantees when you get here. Or are you
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  Speaker 3: going to follow a life of crime?
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  Speaker 4: Again?
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  Speaker 3: Are you the gangs that are offering you, uh, some income,
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  Speaker 3: some safety, some belonging, but you know where that leads
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  Speaker 3: as well? You know that's either going to lead to
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  Speaker 3: an early death or adult prison. There's really no in
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  Speaker 3: betweens there. It's not a successful life.
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  Speaker 4: And so what you know.
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  Speaker 3: What are you going to do?
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  Speaker 4: What are you going to do?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Do you see them struggling? So again, this is just
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  Speaker 1: my impressions. Correct me if I'm wrong, But from some
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  Speaker 1: of the reading I did before the podcast, it really
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  Speaker 1: does seem like even though you have these sort of
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  Speaker 1: single parent homes. Even though you see fathers abandoning families
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  Speaker 1: and those kind of things, there's still sort of a
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  Speaker 1: more collective ethic within the countries you're in El Salvador, Guatemala,
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  Speaker 1: that they have a deeper sense of belonging together. And
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  Speaker 1: I'm wondering how that conflicts. You know, when you're talking
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  Speaker 1: about these alternatives that they have to essentially make a living, right,
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  Speaker 1: how do you go about even surviving this?
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  Speaker 2: That collective still has to be important.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, these are people with mothers and grandmothers who seem,
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  Speaker 1: again based on what I read, seem to have a
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  Speaker 1: deep respect for that family linkage, and yet are being
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  Speaker 1: drawn into these illegal and gang related activities. How much
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  Speaker 1: tension do you all experience? Is your sort of helping
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  Speaker 1: people navigate that? If that's a correct perception, well.
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  Speaker 3: That's right, and I should clarify also, So what we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about here have been painting a general brush across this, right,
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  Speaker 3: But we're really talking about these kids who end up
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  Speaker 3: in juvenile detention and why they end up there. It's
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  Speaker 3: not like one day they just wake up and say,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I think I just want to be a
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  Speaker 3: gang banger, you know, and choose that life. It's how
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  Speaker 3: they've grown up, how they nurture it. And so that
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  Speaker 3: is the population I've been talking about. But that's not
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  Speaker 3: to say that's the whole society, the whole community, because
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  Speaker 3: you're right, it is intergenerational. You do see three generations
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  Speaker 3: of family living together and very close knit families. But
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  Speaker 3: so when you're talking about how do you what's that
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  Speaker 3: tension between the family and seeing the youth end up
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  Speaker 3: in detention, that's one of the most touching that we
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  Speaker 3: see in the program because as the kids go through
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  Speaker 3: our academy, our success Academy behind Bars, and they graduate
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  Speaker 3: from that, we have graduation ceremonies in the detention centers
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  Speaker 3: and we invite the families in and this is oftentimes
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  Speaker 3: the first time they've ever heard anybody applaud for their kids.
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  Speaker 3: They've ever seen their kids receive a diploma, a certificate,
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  Speaker 3: And the emotion a lot between the mothers and the sons,
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  Speaker 3: and the hugs and the crying and the tears that
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  Speaker 3: happen at those graduations is amazing because you know, they
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  Speaker 3: have the parents have challenges of their own too, right
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  Speaker 3: while they're trying to raise these kids and then to
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  Speaker 3: see their kids end up in juvenile detentions there, So
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  Speaker 3: that is that's kind of one of those tensions where
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  Speaker 3: they love their kids and that they're behind bars and
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  Speaker 3: now seeing them actually get on a better path, you know.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, as I was reading through that battle within
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: chapter what the passage that came to mind was when
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Jesus is welcoming the little children. The disciples try to
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: stop them, but Jesus welcomes the little children in, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: you know, it's juxtaposed with the conversation Jesus has with
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: the rich young man who you know, Jesus is saying, hey,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: here's what you need to do. Give all your money
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: away to the poor and come and follow me, and
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the rich home man goes away sad because he was
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: very wealthy. And then the next narrative, you have these
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: little kids, these vulnerable, dependent little children coming to Jesus
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and he says, unless you come to me like a
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: little child, you went hot under the Kingdom of God.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And so there's a deep sense in which I think
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: that dependence and vulnerability, that sense of it opens people up.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: To the Gospel.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: And so I could also though see that how that
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: deep sense of dependence and vulnerability would close people off
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that it would give them a sense of distrust of
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: any sort of person who's holding out a hand, offering
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a solution, you know, providing some help. So how do
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: you all deal with those kind of tensions within the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: juvenile centers where you're probably getting like really interesting responses
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and varied responses to the message you're bringing.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: That's a great question, because you're right.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, they have become distrustful of many of the
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: adults in life who've already abandoned them, and so how
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: do they know they can trust you. That's why our
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: teachers go in every day, you know, it's not once
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: a month. It's to build that relationship. You know, we
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: do have a program, we do have our academy. We
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: do help them develop a life plan and a scholarship
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: program for when they get out, But the relationship is.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: At the heart of it.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: That's really our secret sauce. One time we had another
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: organization come to us and say, we really like what
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you do, we'd like to learn how to do that. Well,
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: can you lay out your processes and your procedures and
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: your policies. And so we did, but at the end
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: of the meeting, it was like, you know, you can
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: do this, you can if you can go, but it's
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: probably not going to work unless you have someone there
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: who is showing the kids God's love and what that
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: looks like on a regular basis, because you know, as
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: it's saying goes, they don't care how much you know,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: and they until they know how much you care.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Do you use This was a question
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I had, I just forgot to ask it. But your
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: teachers are they indigenous? So there these are people from
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the general area or the specific community that you're working in.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: We have our organization is fifty eight right now and
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: we have three of us in the US and the
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: other fifty five employees of Counteract or all durham Salvadorans
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: and Guatemalans. They all come from the communities that they
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: serve and have a heart for these kids and they
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: see it as they're calling, you know, something that they
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: just really want to see not only their culture's changed,
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: but these individual kids' lives changed for the glory of God.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So you're working in the juvenile detention centers, you know
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: that some of these kids are eventually going to be released,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: how do they interface with you or maybe they're not released.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's just an assumption I have, you know, like
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I guess that's the question. When a person is in
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: these juvenile detention centers, how long do you get to
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: work with them? In general, it does it very person
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to person, So like somebody is in for a year
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and then they're released, they go home or what have you,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Maybe you see them again or do you have them
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: for a much longer period of time both.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: You know, we can see them for six months, a year,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: two years, but then some sometimes they're there for six, seven.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Eight years that we've seen them.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: So but that's another aspect of the ministry that has
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: grown over time. Before we were just behind bars, we
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: were just meeting them at their point of despair and
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: not knowing what to do and working with them until
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: that time when they left the detention centers. But we
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: realized that it's so important to help them during the
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: reintegration process back into the community so that you know.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: To know where they're going to live.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Many of them can't go back to the old neighborhoods
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: at crime infested neighborhoods that they can't go back to
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: the you know a lot of unresolved conflicts with gangs
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: that they can't step put back in those neighborhoods, and
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: some don't know how to get back into.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: School or how to apply for a job. So we
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: have success coaches.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: On the outside who are who walk with them through
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: that process. You know, they have developed a success plan,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: a life plan behind bars what they're going to do,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: and so when they get out, that success coach helps
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: them implement that plan and connect them to those opportunities,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: to churches, to schools, to jobs.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're looking at these, you know, these areas
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: seem like number one, it's nice that the government is
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: allowing you in and that this is a great ministry
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: for you all to have in these impoverished areas, in
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: these more difficult spaces, with these kids who are really
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: are just having a rough life. And so I think
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: that's really cool. Do you see yourself expanding beyond these
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: areas or do you take it more opportunistically as a ministry,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of are you planning, here's our next move?
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Are you trying to build those relationships? Are you kind
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: of saying we're good with where we are. If another
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: opportunity opened up. We'd walked through that door when we
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: got there.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: So Guatemala was the next phase. And we've been to
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Guatemala for three years now. It had been you know,
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: we were in El Salvador and Honduras from the get go,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: from the very early beginning of the ministry, and Guatemala
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: had been on our radar because it has some of
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: the same characteristics of the other countries. But we were
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: just for other various reasons, weren't able to get there
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: until the last few years. And we're working on developing
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: that still, those relationships with the government and with other stakeholders.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: So what we're doing now is going deeper than wider.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Right where we're building out the model. Our vision is
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: to be the world's best juvenile justice ministry internationally, so
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: that we have a model that whether you know we
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: go there or others take it and run with it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: That here's here's the plan, here's here's how you can
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: make it work in your country.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Your chapter on the cost of inaction, I thought was
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: really important to talk through.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: So let's let's switch to there.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: So you've got this ministry, you're seeing these kids, you're
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: you're developing your system, you're going deeper.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: What really is the cost of inaction here? Greg?
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: So, one of the stories we share in the book
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: is this young woman who we were working with in
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Guatemala last year, a year ago, and she had two
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: she was seventeen and she had two young children, and
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: we worked with her behind bars and then she got
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: out and we were working with her and trying to
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: help her get set up. She was living with her
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: father and other siblings along with her two children, and
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: she had taken one of her kids to school that
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: morning and was on the way back and a motorcycle
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: pulled up and shot her and killed her. And so
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: she leaves two young kids behind who'll never know their mother.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: And the.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: It is just a heart wrenching.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: You know, there wasn't enough time to help her either,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: you know, whether that was a retaliation to find another
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: place to live. We had just been able to visit
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: her one or two times as she had settled back
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: into there, and so we didn't really dive deeper into Okay,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: what are the needs? Can we really okay, what are
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: the challenges you're facing? But if we don't act, if
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: we don't act, then there would be more of these situations,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: like I said, because that's the pivot time. We can
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: teach teach it behind bars, but the you know, the
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: rubber doesn't hit the road until you're outliving it, right,
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: and so to have someone to mentor you and guide
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: you through that time. So, like I said, the cost
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: of inaction is either gonna flee the country, continue in
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: life of crime, end up in adult prison, or in
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: early death. That those are the costs along with along
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: with and we talk about it in the book as well,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: the spiritual tragedy. It's not just the human tragedy and
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the national tragedy. These are the next generation for these countries,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: and if they're killing each other, that's not good for
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: the future the country. So we talk about those in
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: the human tragedy, spiritual tragedy, and the National Tragedy.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: It's always amazed as me.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: You know, obviously I don't think prisons are even juvenile
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: prisons or you know, juvenile detention centers are fun places,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: but they do offer structure, and they do offer a
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: degree of safety, you know, as opposed to what these
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: kids have been growing up in. And so when you
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: lose that structure, having those success coaches on the outside
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: to help you rebuild. It would seem to me just
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: to be so crucial, and the story you just shared
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: it obviously illustrates it. You've got to pull people back
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: into society in ways that are going to make their
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: choices broader, as opposed to putting them back in situations
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: where we already know what their choices are and without
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: that sort of structured approach to sort of pulling them
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: back into society. I mean, I suppose you know the
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I don't even think it's like biblical or theological, but
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: you could see people saying, well, they should just make
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: a better choices, they should make choices in conforming to
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Christ or whatever. And it's like, well, if you've never
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: been in that completely unstructured situation where you're not sure
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: where your next meal is coming from, where you're concerned
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that people are going to come into your house and
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: kill you or what have you, you have no idea
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: how hard that would be. And I think there's just
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: something to that success Goes strategy you all are implementing.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: That's really crucial there.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that touches on another issue too, about a
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: chapter in the book called a Gospel that goes there.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Like you said, you know, people say, why do you go,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: why do you go to Central America? Don't we have
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: enough problems in America, you know? And a response to
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: that is that, you know, in the US, it's not perfect,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: but there are safety nets, right there are after school programs,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: boys and girls clubs, big brothers, big sisters, you know,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: the list goes on there. It's not perfect, but that
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: there are some safety nets. And in America there is
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: no net right and there there's nowhere for them to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: go to. And so that's the importance of providing an opportunity.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: And the other part about that, about a gospel that
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: goes there.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, these are.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: The kids and the people that Jesus told us about.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: They are the fatherless, they are the poor, they are
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: the prodigal, you know, they.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Are the despondent and those in despair that we're we're
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: called to minister too and to help. And there are neighbors,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: you know there.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Right out of our back door.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: It's you know, I can get to I can get
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: to under Sel Salvador faster, I can get to California.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: So I mean there are neighbors.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we shouldn't let our national boundaries
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: sort of preclude us from recognizing that these are folks
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: that are in our proximity and need care.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Why I so appreciate the book.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if maybe you have one more story that
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: you could share with us, Just give us maybe one
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: of your favorites, a story that really illustrates, I think
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the impact of your ministry.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about this one young lady in El Salvador,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: and she we met her in the detention center, and
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: quite frankly, I don't even know what she was there for.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know what she was arrested. I do know
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: that she was involved in crime, obviously because of a
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: home environ that was broken and that wasn't good, And
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: so she went out onto the streets and seeking belonging
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: and got in trouble and got incarcerated.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: And at first she wasn't.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: Inclined to participate in the academy, but our teachers kept
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: providing devotionals, kept building that relationship, kept talking to her,
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: and then kept inviting her into the academy, and she attended.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: She joined, and she began to open up and receive
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: their love. And then when it came time for her
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: to go out.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: She didn't know where she was going to go to.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: So we helped establish a small I've been to her
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: place with her team. It's a small place, a small place,
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: and get her set up there, bought her a sewing machine.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: She started making t shirts and clothes and selling them
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: and earning a little money. And we saw her grit
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: and her determination, and so we provided her a scholarship
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: because she wanted to be a lawyer, and so she
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: started attending night school. And then we also had the
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: opportunity to talk to some judges and told her about
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: her attending law school, and they invited her in for
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: an interview and she got hired. So now she is
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: working a day job working for one of the top
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: courts in El Salvador. She is attending night school, a
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: law school. She on the weekends. Her small sewing business
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: has grown into a storefront operation that her brother manages,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: so she continues to make clothes on the weekends. We
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: visited her church and she is an organist at her church.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: And so to see this girl come in who was
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: so broken and now is just flourishing because of the opportunity,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: tunity and the love that was given to her.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing to think about how many people are
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: willing to help when they are presented with just a
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: specific opportunity. I just think, I guess my question is
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: when you know when you're working, when the success coaches
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: are working, the experience you had that you just narrated
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: with the judges. I'm sure the judges are aware this
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: is a widespread problem, right, and it's not like they're
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: unaware that this stuff is going on. But to give
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: them a specific opportunity and say this girl is now
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: doing this, and for them to offer that aid to
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: that specific person, it just speaks to the necessity of
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: being of giving people the opportunity to help particular individuals.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I think that's that's something I'm taking away from that story.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: You know, sort of amazing that they hired her and
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: brought her in for an interview and you know, all
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: that kind of good stuff.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: So that goes back to we were talking about at
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: the very beginning. It's about peeling back those labels and
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: those preconceptions of who you think this young lady, this
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: young man are and looking at them for their human dignity.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: And that's the same way we in the last year,
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: we've started a mentoring project in El Salvador, and for
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: years we've wanted to really get volunteer mentors to participate
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: because we only have so many coaches and their caseloads
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: are high, and so we need more of that one
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: on one mentorship. And so we brought on board a
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: guy who really had But the point is that what
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: we had heard the resistance is my family's business has
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: been extorted, my family member has been a victim of crime.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: We don't want anything to do with that. We don't
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: want any association. But but we brought on this guy
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: who had a network of churches and he was a
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: very relational guy, and he was able to convince fifty
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: churches representatives to come in for informational session and over
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: the course of last year, out of that came more
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: than twenty individual mentors. So we have now today twenty
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: plus Christian mentors matched up with twenty released youth. To
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: add on to that level of accountability, of mentorship, of
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: growth and discipleship, of course, so that these people have
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: learned to see the kids as human beings, as children
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: of God and people who are worth investing in.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: So just to clarify the extortion piece. What I understood
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: you to say was whenever people have gotten involved previously
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: with some of the people who are out of the
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: juvenile detention centers, that has turned out poorly for them
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: because the people from the juvenile detention centers have been
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: trying to extort them. Would that I misunderstand that?
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so clarify that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: You know, people have many small Latinda's stores or taxicab companies,
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: but there's a gang tax in many of the neighborhoods
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: that you know. It's like the mafia, right you you
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: need to pay me in order for you to operate
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: in this area. So their businesses are being extorted by
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: the gangs. So they project that onto the youth. Why
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: would I want to mentor this type of person because
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: of what I have experienced.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: That that clarifies it. Yeah, thank you for clarifying that.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: That's helpful. Well, Greg.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed reading the book. I thought it was fantastic.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I think you did a fantastic job on it. I'd
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: encourage people to go get it again. The title of
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: the book is Counteract, Walking Alongside incursrated youth in Central
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: America from prison to purpose and I just thought one
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: of the things I'll just say, I thought you did
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: a great job of interweaving your mission throughout and really
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: making it clear why you're there, why it's important to
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: be there, and then how other people could be there.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And so in that spirit, why don't you tell people
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: how they could get involved with Counteract, how they could
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: support what you're doing, and where they can find you.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I appreciate you're reading the book, but yeah,
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: those are the points to try to make that no
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: youth is beyond God's grace and redimnition, that personal connection
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: and mentorship and discipleship is key key, and that there
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: are opportunities for people to get involved to for churches,
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: for social civic organizations, for individuals, for donors to play
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: a part in the work and see the transformations that
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: God creates through their generosity. So we are at Counteract
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: dot org and our social media is Counteract org on
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: the social media networks, and so that's where you can
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: find us. And yeah, thanks for asking about the book.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: It is available on all major online retailers Amazon, Walmart, Arnes,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: and Noble.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Well established by Westboat Press. It's on their site as well.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have links to all of that in the
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: show description, and I would just encourage you to check
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: out Counteracts website. I got on there and kind of
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: looked around. They do have other opportunities for people to
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: plug in. There's always ways to help, and so get
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the book, read through it. If you're compelled by the
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: mission of Counteract, I just encourage you to get that
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and help them do what they're already doing better add
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: to their capacity, because I really do think that what
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: they're doing is compelling. And so Greg, thanks for being here.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Thanks for the work you do and really appreciate it
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: be on the show today.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Thanks for the opportunity.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: James, all right, everyone will catch you on the next
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Take Care.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.