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Murdaugh Murders: DID MURDAUGH DISCARD BLOODY SHOES? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece, you know the other day
0:12
Speaker 1: when second jur was on the stand. This is the
0:14
Speaker 1: lady that worked with Alex, the murdog, that found out
0:18
Speaker 1: he was still in really millions of dollars from clients
0:21
Speaker 1: in the law firm. Remember, the jury wasn't there. They
0:25
Speaker 1: didn't hear any of that that we heard. We actually
0:27
Speaker 1: know more than the jury knows. Well. The judge had
0:30
Speaker 1: a bombshell ruling in court, and that was that this
0:34
Speaker 1: financial mode of financial misdeeds could be heard by the jury.
0:40
Speaker 1: And remember, typically a jury never gets to hear all that.
0:43
Speaker 1: Why because it could be considered to be bad reputation
0:48
Speaker 1: or other bad acts, not the murders. That's what he's
0:52
Speaker 1: on trial for the murders, and that is unconstitutional. But
0:56
Speaker 1: in this case and in other similar cases, this type
1:00
Speaker 1: of evidence is allowed. Why because it shows motive, frame
1:05
Speaker 1: of mind, scheme, course of conduct, and it was contemporaneous.
1:12
Speaker 1: In other words, it was rest jeste all happening at
1:17
Speaker 1: the same time, not some bad thing he did teen
1:20
Speaker 1: years ago, but happening right then. That was motive for
1:25
Speaker 1: the murders of Maggie and Paul, his wife and son.
1:30
Speaker 1: Man it better be some good motive to murder your
1:33
Speaker 1: wife and child, and the way he allegedly did it.
1:39
Speaker 1: So we heard that the other day. That's where I started.
1:42
Speaker 1: We heard her testifying outside the presence of the jury.
1:45
Speaker 1: Why because the judge wanted to hear all that evidence
1:48
Speaker 1: to determine is this admissible? Well, guess what she has
1:52
Speaker 1: been on the witness stand and she came into that
1:57
Speaker 1: courtroom locked and loaded. Let me tell you, guns a blazing.
2:03
Speaker 1: She is not parsing words. Let's take a listen to
2:08
Speaker 1: a little bit of that, Christine, can we play cut five?
2:11
Speaker 1: Let's listen to a second church me. What was your
2:12
Speaker 1: observation of Alec as a lawyer in the office? Alick
2:17
Speaker 1: kept different hours than a lot of the rest of us.
2:19
Speaker 1: He came in and he would work like always loud,
2:24
Speaker 1: always busy, always in a rush. He had the gift
2:30
Speaker 1: to gab, but he'd always seemed last minute and hurried
2:33
Speaker 1: and frenetic. What were your observations of him as a lawyer.
2:38
Speaker 1: I think Alick was successful more from his work ethic,
2:44
Speaker 1: but from his ability to establish relationships and to to
2:50
Speaker 1: manipulate people into settlements and clients into liking him. So
2:58
Speaker 1: he did it through the article. Basically, Okay, she got beat.
3:03
Speaker 1: Now I gave up cussing that I had the twins.
3:05
Speaker 1: I've got an all star panel lined up to make
3:08
Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now. But let me
3:09
Speaker 1: first go to Mark Tate. Tate is a high profile
3:13
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Savannah, which is just a hop, skip
3:16
Speaker 1: at a jump from this courtroom. You know, a high
3:21
Speaker 1: profile lawyer would Tate Lawgroup at Tatelawgroup dot com. Mark Tate.
3:25
Speaker 1: I didn't like anything I just heard because when I finally,
3:29
Speaker 1: after three years of doing something different, I was a
3:32
Speaker 1: law clerk to a federal magistrate than I worked in
3:35
Speaker 1: the antitrust division at the FTC and Consumer Protection, I
3:37
Speaker 1: finally made it to a DA's office and I immediately
3:40
Speaker 1: got put in indictments. How do you draw up an indictment?
3:43
Speaker 1: How do you read police reports and supplementals and figure
3:46
Speaker 1: out legally what should be charged? And I noticed that
3:49
Speaker 1: there was this guy in the drug unit. He was
3:53
Speaker 1: never there when I was there. I'm like, Hey, who's
3:56
Speaker 1: behind that locked door? Who works in there? And oh
3:58
Speaker 1: he keeps odd hours the day and night. I'm like, oh, okay,
4:02
Speaker 1: even as a novice I knew something was a way
4:04
Speaker 1: wrong with somebody that had odd hours. And listen, don't
4:10
Speaker 1: get me wrong. My dad worked swing shift, you know,
4:12
Speaker 1: one night he'd be on the graveyard shift, one night
4:15
Speaker 1: he'd go in, one day going at seven am. He
4:17
Speaker 1: had all different kind of work hours on the railroad
4:20
Speaker 1: where he worked. So I'm not knocking that, But the
4:24
Speaker 1: way she said it, I mean, if you had a
4:27
Speaker 1: partner and take law group that would blow in about
4:30
Speaker 1: eight pm at night and nobody knows when he comes
4:33
Speaker 1: or when he goes. No, no, right there, something is wrong. Well,
4:37
Speaker 1: it wouldn't happen. That wouldn't happen. Here. I'm a little
4:41
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with you continuing to describe me as a prominent
4:44
Speaker 1: trial lawyer in the Savannah area, because I'm afraid that
4:48
Speaker 1: starts to get a little bit too close to what
4:50
Speaker 1: they're saying about the guy that's on trial for murder now.
4:52
Speaker 1: But I do appreciate the tongue of cheek and way
4:55
Speaker 1: in which you proceed with that. But Nancy to come
4:59
Speaker 1: to your aid a cameo appearance as a defense lawyer,
5:02
Speaker 1: that's not happening. But right there, when she said he
5:05
Speaker 1: kept unusual hours, I know what that means. Yeah, that
5:09
Speaker 1: means that nobody was keeping track of his work hours,
5:14
Speaker 1: and that he was unprepared and frenetic. He relied on relationships.
5:19
Speaker 1: No that I don't want a lawyer to rely on relationships.
5:22
Speaker 1: I want them to be prepared and on time. But
5:25
Speaker 1: it's a balancing act. Obviously, Murdoch played off of his
5:29
Speaker 1: family's name and reputation. He made no secret of that.
5:33
Speaker 1: And what this seconder says as she clearly didn't have
5:36
Speaker 1: a whole lot of respect for his lawyer liabilities. She
5:39
Speaker 1: didn't say that he was brilliant. She didn't say that
5:41
Speaker 1: he was a strategic analytic genius. She said that he
5:46
Speaker 1: was a bullying artist, and that's her quote. And I
5:49
Speaker 1: think that what that means is his family's been around
5:52
Speaker 1: for so long that he's able to get people to
5:54
Speaker 1: do things. And she said manipulate, which means you're convincing
5:57
Speaker 1: people to do something that's less than in your best
6:00
Speaker 1: interest because of friendships in charm. I guess, but she didn't. Clearly,
6:04
Speaker 1: she clearly did not have a great deal of respect
6:06
Speaker 1: for his ability as a lawyer. I suspect from the
6:10
Speaker 1: tone of her testimony that she really never did like him,
6:14
Speaker 1: and she probably never liked him because she thought or
6:17
Speaker 1: felt like he had tripped backwards into a very lucrative
6:22
Speaker 1: and prestigious position just because of his birthright. That's what
6:26
Speaker 1: it sounds like to me. But she clearly does not
6:28
Speaker 1: like I never marked Tate. You know, he must be
6:31
Speaker 1: a mind reader. You're a clairvoyant as well as being
6:34
Speaker 1: a high profile lawyer the Savannah area. Because I didn't
6:39
Speaker 1: pick up that she never liked him. I didn't get
6:42
Speaker 1: that at all, Chris, Stay, let me know when we
6:45
Speaker 1: get Anne Emerson hooked tough from WCIV. I didn't get
6:48
Speaker 1: that because remember she worked with Maggie. But now that
6:52
Speaker 1: you're saying it, you might be right, because you know,
6:58
Speaker 1: a leopard, it doesn't change at spots, right, And if
7:04
Speaker 1: he's that way, now, I wonder. You know, I've been
7:07
Speaker 1: doing some digging on my own and managed to dig
7:11
Speaker 1: up a roommate of his in undergrad who said he
7:16
Speaker 1: was an odd duck even in undergrad, that people didn't
7:24
Speaker 1: really want to be. There was just something about him
7:26
Speaker 1: that was odd and they couldn't really put their finger
7:30
Speaker 1: on it. So I'm just wondering if you're right, but
7:33
Speaker 1: remember Mark Tate, she very well likely knew Maggie, and
7:39
Speaker 1: by all accounts, Maggie was just a sweetheart of a person.
7:44
Speaker 1: Because Maggie was a bookkeeper at that firm. Well, I mean,
7:48
Speaker 1: I've been in private practice for over thirty years, and
7:50
Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of different kinds of environments and
7:52
Speaker 1: a lot of different law firms, and I can tell
7:54
Speaker 1: you that the lady who is or the man who
7:56
Speaker 1: was in charge of keeping the books and is the
7:58
Speaker 1: chief financial author of that firm, they have a lot
8:02
Speaker 1: of relationships, but they have a lot of opinions that
8:04
Speaker 1: they very carefully hold to themselves, and they are by
8:09
Speaker 1: the book if they're successful. And sure, she may be
8:12
Speaker 1: friends with with with his wife and may be nice
8:14
Speaker 1: to his wife, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has
8:17
Speaker 1: to like or respect him. And the thing that you
8:19
Speaker 1: want to hear an employee is you know, this man
8:22
Speaker 1: was a fantastic lawyer. This man had a gift of
8:27
Speaker 1: persuasion in the courtroom. He had the ability to convince
8:31
Speaker 1: people that his point of view were his or her
8:33
Speaker 1: point if he was correct. We didn't hear any of that.
8:36
Speaker 1: All we heard is that he keeps weird hours, and
8:40
Speaker 1: you know he got where he got. He did it
8:43
Speaker 1: all the bull. Her words are not mine, all right?
8:47
Speaker 1: Quote let me let me reiterate that again. Listen to
8:50
Speaker 1: this another odd moment that we hear from Jennie second
8:56
Speaker 1: or on the standard. If you think you got an
8:59
Speaker 1: earful and she was outside the jury presence, Oh I
9:02
Speaker 1: wish you could have been in that courtroom today. Take
9:04
Speaker 1: a listener. Cut seven and what is the next page
9:06
Speaker 1: of this exhibited that's the council check payable to forge
9:09
Speaker 1: for eighty three thousand, three hundred and thirty three dollars
9:12
Speaker 1: or thirty three cents, all right, and you recognize the
9:15
Speaker 1: accent signature on there. That's Alex. And so when you
9:19
Speaker 1: were when we last left off, you were telling Alec
9:23
Speaker 1: that it had been done wrong because it had gone
9:26
Speaker 1: straight from the trust account direct to what you believe
9:31
Speaker 1: to be forage at the time. Correct, And it can't
9:33
Speaker 1: go to the law firm or the tax benefits go away,
9:37
Speaker 1: that's right, all right? So you raised those issues with Alec.
9:42
Speaker 1: What was his response when you first talked to him
9:44
Speaker 1: about this? His response was that he was not worried
9:48
Speaker 1: so much about the tax ramifications of saving the taxes
9:52
Speaker 1: that he was trying to get money in Maggie's name
9:54
Speaker 1: due to the boat accident that happened in February of ten,
9:57
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Okay, you know what that means. He's trying
10:03
Speaker 1: to hide money in Maggie's name, and he outright says
10:08
Speaker 1: I'm doing it because of the Malory Beach boat accident.
10:25
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you that
10:29
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't want to be too inside baseball.
10:32
Speaker 1: Mallory Beach was a nineteen year old girl that was
10:35
Speaker 1: on a speedboat belonging to Murdog being driven by his
10:39
Speaker 1: drunk as a skunk Heizikite son Paul now murder victim.
10:44
Speaker 1: There's Mallory, right, They're beautiful, beautiful girl, and everybody on
10:48
Speaker 1: the boat that night was begging him to slow down.
10:52
Speaker 1: He didn't, and he plowed into some cement pilings. And
10:56
Speaker 1: I've gone and looked at them myself. They're jut up
11:00
Speaker 1: out of the water. You can see them at a
11:02
Speaker 1: great distance. But somehow, instead of veering around them, he
11:06
Speaker 1: plowed right into them. Mallory was thrown over the edge
11:10
Speaker 1: of the boat. This young girl flies over the side
11:13
Speaker 1: of the boat to her death. She was in the
11:16
Speaker 1: water for days. I talked to the emergency crew that
11:19
Speaker 1: had been out looking for her, and when her body
11:22
Speaker 1: was found bloated with water days later, everybody just started crying.
11:26
Speaker 1: It's awful. So that family, the Mallory Beach family, was
11:31
Speaker 1: suing the Murdogs, and as we talked about it yesterday,
11:36
Speaker 1: no Paul problem partially solved. Paul was killed. He was
11:42
Speaker 1: the driver of the boat, so he knows they're going
11:47
Speaker 1: after him for money, after the Murdogs, so he's trying
11:50
Speaker 1: to put money out of his name and into Maggie's name.
11:54
Speaker 1: Did I explain that correctly? Mark take, Yeah, But I
12:00
Speaker 1: think that that is I think that statement to his bookkeeper.
12:06
Speaker 1: It doesn't really make sense to me. And I think
12:08
Speaker 1: there's a big gap in what she's explaining to the
12:12
Speaker 1: jury with regard to the way structured settlements work. And
12:16
Speaker 1: I don't want to bore them anymore than or more
12:18
Speaker 1: board your audience, anymore than man jury maybe board vibing.
12:21
Speaker 1: I have done work in my thirty years with the
12:24
Speaker 1: real and valid Forge Consulting, and the way it works
12:29
Speaker 1: is there's an act, the Structured Settlement Act, whereby an
12:32
Speaker 1: injured individual can direct money directly from the pay or
12:37
Speaker 1: to an insurance company that pays them an annuity over
12:39
Speaker 1: time that is tax free, and so it never comes
12:43
Speaker 1: into possession of it never comes into possession of the firm.
12:48
Speaker 1: And the problem is is that she was not talking
12:51
Speaker 1: about the tax consequences to him. The lawyer still pays
12:55
Speaker 1: tax on your fees. She was talking about the tax
12:58
Speaker 1: consequences to the party because if the firm comes into
13:02
Speaker 1: possession of the funds, they're going to fund that annuity
13:04
Speaker 1: before it goes to the client. That destroys the tax
13:07
Speaker 1: benefit of a structured of an annuity. That's what she
13:11
Speaker 1: was talking about it. And I think once again now listen,
13:14
Speaker 1: no one can dispute that Alec Murdoch. Murdoch was playing
13:19
Speaker 1: fast and loose with money. Clearly that was the case.
13:23
Speaker 1: We can't dispute that. You know what, that's really putting
13:25
Speaker 1: perfume on the pig, isn't it tight playing fast and
13:28
Speaker 1: losard with money. She's still got ten million dollars that
13:31
Speaker 1: we know of. Ye, so sametimes pigs need perfect But
13:35
Speaker 1: the question is is killing his son and is killing
13:39
Speaker 1: his wife? Is that going to And that's what Harpulian
13:44
Speaker 1: is pointing out is is that going to keep the
13:46
Speaker 1: heat off of him from stealing that much money? And
13:51
Speaker 1: that's what That's what's always worried me a little bit
13:54
Speaker 1: is first of all, the complication of describing the financial
13:57
Speaker 1: incentive of what he was doing with the fake forge
14:00
Speaker 1: and also convincing a jury that that murder of his
14:05
Speaker 1: wife and son is going to take the heat off
14:07
Speaker 1: of him financially, and Everson joining me, see you investigat
14:13
Speaker 1: a reporter WCIV Wait a minute, wait for it. Take
14:16
Speaker 1: hold on. And I'm not arguing that it was just
14:22
Speaker 1: the money that was motive for murder. And number one,
14:25
Speaker 1: the state doesn't have to prove motive at all. Number one,
14:29
Speaker 1: let's start with that. But an it wasn't just that money.
14:33
Speaker 1: It wasn't that his law firm had just found out, hey,
14:36
Speaker 1: you're stealing millions. That was happening. His whole life was
14:41
Speaker 1: out of control. Many believe that Maggie wanted a divorce.
14:46
Speaker 1: Paul was high and drunk and ended up basically killing
14:52
Speaker 1: a girl with the boat. That was happening. If Maggie
14:55
Speaker 1: got a divorce, she would go into all of his
14:58
Speaker 1: money and find out they were going broke because he
15:01
Speaker 1: was running through the money and he would be left
15:03
Speaker 1: with nothing, he would get disbarred, he would have nothing left.
15:08
Speaker 1: Plus according to his own lawyers, he's high on opioids.
15:13
Speaker 1: So everything is spinning out. That's the motive, and Nancy,
15:19
Speaker 1: it feels like that's exactly how they're building this case,
15:21
Speaker 1: layer upon layer. That's what we're hearing from the state
15:24
Speaker 1: right now is all of these all of these factors
15:27
Speaker 1: had to play a role. It was as they said
15:29
Speaker 1: in the opening statement, Remember when when Creton Water said,
15:33
Speaker 1: this is the perfect storm, and we're gon we're gonna
15:35
Speaker 1: show you how this perfect storm came together. And there's
15:38
Speaker 1: another thing that was happening the day that Paul and
15:41
Speaker 1: Maggie were murdered. Remember this is also when his father
15:46
Speaker 1: ran off, the patriarch of the Murdoch family, the one
15:50
Speaker 1: who had been from what we can tell through all
15:54
Speaker 1: of these canceled checks and all this money that's been
15:56
Speaker 1: moving around that he had been been at times taking
16:00
Speaker 1: loans out. There was that money was gone. Dad was
16:05
Speaker 1: not around to pick up the pieces right now, so
16:08
Speaker 1: you wonder how that was affecting his mental state as well.
16:11
Speaker 1: And from all accounts that we're hearing in that testimony
16:14
Speaker 1: that's finally going into the courtroom today on these alleged
16:18
Speaker 1: financial crimes. There was an enormous amount of pressure happening
16:22
Speaker 1: that day. You're absolutely right, and Nancy, go ahead, please,
16:27
Speaker 1: So Nancy, it actually did buy him about thirty days
16:30
Speaker 1: reprieve anyway, which is not much for killing your wife
16:34
Speaker 1: and son, but it did postpone some of that investigation
16:37
Speaker 1: for thirty days. I'm hearing the voice of doctor Michelle
16:40
Speaker 1: Dupree for incy pathologist, medical examiner, former detective and author
16:44
Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupree. A lot of
16:50
Speaker 1: our viewers and listeners wrote in last night after we
16:54
Speaker 1: talked about one witness describing him as fidgety, and I said,
16:58
Speaker 1: well it was he was high on opioids. Don't they
17:01
Speaker 1: make you sleepy? And many of them said they can
17:04
Speaker 1: also make you fidgety, especially if you're trying to come
17:06
Speaker 1: off them. I want to circle back with you on that,
17:10
Speaker 1: doctor Juepree, but back to this woman on the stand.
17:13
Speaker 1: I mean, we soak alled experts can talk to were
17:16
Speaker 1: blue in the face, but nothing says it like Jinny
17:20
Speaker 1: second Er. Take a less an hour cut eight what happened?
17:24
Speaker 1: Went to look for Las. He was standing outside of
17:27
Speaker 1: his office leaning on a file cabinet, and he looked
17:30
Speaker 1: at me with a pretty dirty look, one I had
17:33
Speaker 1: not seen before, and said, what do you need now,
17:37
Speaker 1: clearly disgusted with me. I said, I have reason to
17:40
Speaker 1: believe that you received the farest money directly to you,
17:43
Speaker 1: and you need to prove to me that you did not.
17:46
Speaker 1: And he assured me again that the money was in there,
17:50
Speaker 1: said he was trying to leave it in there to
17:51
Speaker 1: decide what to do as far as structuring some more
17:54
Speaker 1: money or putting more money in Maggie's name. During the
17:57
Speaker 1: middle of our conversation, he took a phone call, and
18:00
Speaker 1: the call was saying that his father was in the hospital.
18:04
Speaker 1: Around four o'clock my phone rank and Elik was asking
18:07
Speaker 1: me some information about his four o one K balance,
18:11
Speaker 1: because he stated he had to get some documents and
18:13
Speaker 1: financials together for a hearing regarding the boat wreck later
18:17
Speaker 1: that week. And you can only assume that he is
18:19
Speaker 1: thinking of rating his and his wife's four oh one
18:23
Speaker 1: K their retirement funds to pay off the balance on
18:28
Speaker 1: what he was soup families being sued for the boating accident.
18:33
Speaker 1: So everything is spinning out of control. Exactly when all
18:37
Speaker 1: of this is happening, and then Jennie gets the realization
18:42
Speaker 1: Gennie's seconder that it wasn't just one case or two cases.
18:46
Speaker 1: He was stealing millions of dollars. Take a listen to
18:51
Speaker 1: Jennie's seconder on the stand. I cut ten and as
18:54
Speaker 1: the council checks hit in the back of my printer,
18:57
Speaker 1: I could see Elik Murdoch's signature on the back. It
19:00
Speaker 1: would say Aled Murdoch and a lot of more Bank
19:02
Speaker 1: of America. And as everyone come out, I started noticing
19:07
Speaker 1: it more and more and the sickest feeling you could
19:11
Speaker 1: fill in the world. I knew that he was stealing
19:13
Speaker 1: all this money. At that point, William Barnes just happened
19:19
Speaker 1: to call over to my office and said what are
19:21
Speaker 1: you doing? How are you doing today? And I said,
19:23
Speaker 1: I'm about to throw up. You need to come over
19:25
Speaker 1: here and showed him the checks, at which point he
19:29
Speaker 1: verified that he thought that was Alex signature as well
19:32
Speaker 1: the fact that his signature was on the back and
19:34
Speaker 1: the endorsement on the back was Bank of America. And
19:37
Speaker 1: what did that inditate to you about all those checks
19:39
Speaker 1: when you saw his signature that they were stolen fees,
19:43
Speaker 1: stolen money. But then just as Alex Murdock is getting
19:48
Speaker 1: confronted about stealing, guess what happens. Take a list. Hour
19:53
Speaker 1: cut nine. I got a call or she started getting
19:56
Speaker 1: texts from friends asking if I hadn't heard Maggie and Alick.
20:01
Speaker 1: I mean, Maggie and Paul had been shot. Nobody knew
20:03
Speaker 1: what was going on, so very scared. You said, this
20:06
Speaker 1: law firm is like a brotherhood, Craig, That's correct. Did
20:10
Speaker 1: everyone rallied to Alex Ai? We did. There's nothing happened
20:15
Speaker 1: that week at work. Everybody spent time with Leik, trying
20:19
Speaker 1: to support him, bringing family mills, attending the funerals. So
20:25
Speaker 1: nothing happened all week after the murders happened. Was anybody
20:31
Speaker 1: at all concerned about getting the proof for those missing
20:36
Speaker 1: fees after those murders? Half At that point the time,
20:40
Speaker 1: we weren't because we were concerned about Elk. He wasn't
20:45
Speaker 1: working a whole lot, he was erratic, We knew he
20:49
Speaker 1: was taking pills. We were just worried about him sanity,
20:54
Speaker 1: so we weren't going to go in there and harass
20:56
Speaker 1: him about money when we were worried about his mental
21:01
Speaker 1: state and the fact that this his family had been killed.
21:04
Speaker 1: So in Emerson and Senior investigative reporter WCIV ABC soundslot,
21:10
Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree is right. The murder of Paul, the
21:15
Speaker 1: murder of Maggie, his wife and son, did get him
21:19
Speaker 1: a reprieve from the firm who was about three inches
21:23
Speaker 1: up his tailpipe about all the stolen money. Well, and
21:26
Speaker 1: Nancy to be super clear about those cuts that we
21:29
Speaker 1: were just listening to as well, the first and the
21:32
Speaker 1: third cuts, those are both happening around the June seventh period.
21:36
Speaker 1: The second cut, that middle cut that we heard about
21:38
Speaker 1: that sick feeling that Gene's seconder was having, that happens
21:42
Speaker 1: three months later and leads us straight into the Labor
21:46
Speaker 1: Day shooting, the botched suicide attempt. That's when she started.
21:52
Speaker 1: The whole system started unraveling. So you have this first
21:56
Speaker 1: event that the state's trying to set up that there
21:59
Speaker 1: was an enormous amount of pressure that day when the
22:02
Speaker 1: call comes through about Randolph. Remember also, Genie's second Church
22:06
Speaker 1: is a very important witness for lots of reasons. She's
22:09
Speaker 1: known Alex since she was sixteen years old. She went
22:12
Speaker 1: to high school with him. She ended up marrying, or
22:15
Speaker 1: her sister ended up marrying Russell Lafitte, who was one
22:20
Speaker 1: of his bankers at Palmetto Saint Bank, who's already gone
22:24
Speaker 1: to federal trial regarding these charges that he was involved
22:29
Speaker 1: in this whole plot with Alec Murdoch. So she has
22:32
Speaker 1: a huge cross to bear in this whole thing, not
22:36
Speaker 1: only that she's the one that had to confront Alec
22:39
Speaker 1: that day, and she's the one that has already said
22:43
Speaker 1: to the jury, I feel like I somehow have responsibility
22:47
Speaker 1: in this because I didn't catch it sooner. That guilt,
22:50
Speaker 1: that overwhelming guilt. You could see it on the jury's faces.
22:53
Speaker 1: They're watching her and then they're looking at Alec. They're
22:56
Speaker 1: watching her and they're looking at Alec and they're putting
22:58
Speaker 1: two and two together. This is a pivotal moment in
23:02
Speaker 1: this trial because this is the first time we have
23:04
Speaker 1: actually heard these financial charges laid out on the table
23:08
Speaker 1: for the jury. We've heard them, we've heard them for
23:10
Speaker 1: the last year. They have not heard them, and this
23:13
Speaker 1: is extremely important for the state to make their case
23:16
Speaker 1: and in rest of the way you're describing. That reminds
23:18
Speaker 1: me so much of when I was trying cases. Nothing
23:21
Speaker 1: else in the world would exist. I'll be looking at
23:24
Speaker 1: the witness and at the jury, witness, jury, witness, jury,
23:30
Speaker 1: and nothing else seemed to exist. Did you hear that?
23:33
Speaker 1: Take that's not a good sign for Murdog for the
23:36
Speaker 1: jurors to be looking at this witness then looking over
23:39
Speaker 1: at Murdog. Don't you know they've had about a snoot
23:42
Speaker 1: full of them already. You don't like that. Clearly this
23:45
Speaker 1: is not a great thing for Murdoch. Clearly things are
23:49
Speaker 1: going poorly bajillion. It can only do so much with
23:53
Speaker 1: a cross examination, and so I think, really, at least
23:57
Speaker 1: from a casual or even a lawyer's position observing this trial,
24:01
Speaker 1: you should view it really as perhaps a lesson in
24:04
Speaker 1: examination and cross examination and how a lawyer will conduct
24:08
Speaker 1: it when maybe they don't have a very great hand
24:12
Speaker 1: to play. Well. I can tell you one thing, tape,
24:15
Speaker 1: they better not bully up on this witness because in jury,
24:17
Speaker 1: she's very likable, she's very believable, and the jury is
24:21
Speaker 1: not gonna like it. If our heart polling or some
24:23
Speaker 1: other defense attorney starts well and on her and getting
24:28
Speaker 1: her upset and bullying her. But guys, today I have
24:32
Speaker 1: two more experts for you. One is about a jury
24:36
Speaker 1: consultant and she is very astute and learned when it
24:42
Speaker 1: comes to tampering with witnesses. We also have a forensics
24:48
Speaker 1: expert to discuss what we're finally hearing about gunshot residue.
24:52
Speaker 1: Now a lot of us have heard about it, but
24:54
Speaker 1: the jury is just now hearing about all of this.
24:59
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about bullying the witness
25:03
Speaker 1: and one witness really touched my heart. I want you
25:09
Speaker 1: to take a listen to our cut two. This is
25:13
Speaker 1: about bullying witnesses. Listen, what did he did? He was
25:17
Speaker 1: at the house and I'm not one hundred and city
25:19
Speaker 1: following he was telling you or saying to you that
25:22
Speaker 1: he was at the house. When did night of the murders,
25:25
Speaker 1: the night of the murder? Yes, what was he telling
25:28
Speaker 1: you about that he was at the house the night
25:30
Speaker 1: of the murder, that he'd been in thirty to forty minutes.
25:33
Speaker 1: Did he indicate to you what he wants you to
25:35
Speaker 1: do with that information? No? No, what did he say?
25:39
Speaker 1: He did say that he was at the house at
25:41
Speaker 1: thirty to forty minutes, I said, he said, what was
25:53
Speaker 1: he there at thirty to forty minutes at night? Not
26:01
Speaker 1: to Michaeldol, Why are you fry? I think a good family,
26:07
Speaker 1: a good family, and I love wor getting here and
26:11
Speaker 1: I'm sorry all this happen. Joining me is Christina Marianachas.
26:17
Speaker 1: Not only are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I
26:23
Speaker 1: know you're also with JD. But you've got a lot
26:26
Speaker 1: of initials by your name Christina. But your expertise is
26:30
Speaker 1: jury consulting, strategy advisor. You're the author of pattern Vodyer
26:35
Speaker 1: Questions and you can find an expert services dot com. Christina,
26:40
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What do you make
26:42
Speaker 1: of that witness who broke down crying on the stand
26:46
Speaker 1: after she was bullied. I believe Murdock came up to
26:50
Speaker 1: her after mister Randolph, his mother, his father's memorial. It
26:54
Speaker 1: was at someone's funeral or memorial. He comes up and says, hey,
26:58
Speaker 1: do you remember I was at my mom's house for
27:01
Speaker 1: thirty forty minutes? Right? Right? Okay, bye. Well, clearly this
27:04
Speaker 1: witness has a close relationship with the family, and that's
27:08
Speaker 1: why she seemed to be so emotional and she seems torn.
27:11
Speaker 1: I'm sure that she really cared about Alec as well
27:14
Speaker 1: and all the other family members. I think the word
27:17
Speaker 1: bully seems a little strong for what the testimony was.
27:21
Speaker 1: I think there was a suggestion there, and certainly witnesses
27:26
Speaker 1: their recollection of time periods is very different, not always accurate,
27:31
Speaker 1: so thirty minutes to one person could be twenty minutes
27:34
Speaker 1: to another. I think him saying that seemed off to her,
27:38
Speaker 1: and I believe she called her brother afterwards. She felt off,
27:42
Speaker 1: but it didn't seem to be threatening per se. Well,
27:44
Speaker 1: all I know she called her brother, the chief of
27:46
Speaker 1: police in a neighboring county, and she's so upset about
27:50
Speaker 1: what happened she broke down on the stand and started crying.
27:54
Speaker 1: So the time actually is critical to proving this case,
27:58
Speaker 1: because if he was at his others at the time
28:01
Speaker 1: of the murders, then he's innocent. If he's lying about
28:04
Speaker 1: the time, then he's guilty. It's just really that simple.
28:09
Speaker 1: So twenty minutes or forty minutes makes a big difference
28:14
Speaker 1: in this case. And if she didn't feel bullied, then
28:17
Speaker 1: why is she crying on the stand. I think she's
28:20
Speaker 1: just from the whole situation. Okay, so is that tight
28:24
Speaker 1: jump in take I was just going to say one
28:26
Speaker 1: thing briefly, is we and I a my firm, and
28:30
Speaker 1: when we try cases, we've had the pleasure of working with,
28:34
Speaker 1: you know, top notch jury consultants like Christine, and you know,
28:38
Speaker 1: we rely on input of folks, folks other than lawyers
28:42
Speaker 1: to get a feel for the way a jury is responding.
28:45
Speaker 1: And so, you know, lawyers think and we all think
28:49
Speaker 1: that we are the most skilled at forming our questions
28:51
Speaker 1: and judging the way the answers to those questions are
28:55
Speaker 1: interpreted by others. But sometimes it takes someone who is
28:58
Speaker 1: not quite knee deep in it, as as perhaps you
29:01
Speaker 1: and maybe even I might find ourselves at this point.
29:05
Speaker 1: Which's interesting that she finds that this is a moved witness,
29:09
Speaker 1: not a bullied witness. And so it's those kinds of
29:12
Speaker 1: things I think a trial lawyer should listen to, perhaps
29:15
Speaker 1: in shaping, you know, the cross examination of future witnesses.
29:18
Speaker 1: Is it's going to be a person who's going to
29:19
Speaker 1: be emotionally involved with the family who's going to break down,
29:23
Speaker 1: and be careful of that and going for so I
29:25
Speaker 1: think I think she's right, I think certainly not the
29:29
Speaker 1: situation and Emerson joining me w CIV this woman is
29:34
Speaker 1: a phrase. She's going to lose her job if she doesn't,
29:38
Speaker 1: say Alex Murdog was at the mother's house for forty minutes,
29:42
Speaker 1: and I find that to be very, very concerning. And
29:49
Speaker 1: also in the same breath he said, hey, uh, aren't
29:53
Speaker 1: you about to get married? Weddings are expensive. I'm going
29:55
Speaker 1: to help you with that, all right. I mean, it's
29:58
Speaker 1: just so obvious. That's what I was just thinking about.
30:00
Speaker 1: Nancy was that next comment, the way she put it.
30:03
Speaker 1: We don't know the exact timeline, but we know that
30:05
Speaker 1: it was during this very emotional aftermath of Randolph Murdoch's funeral,
30:10
Speaker 1: who was the patriarch, an incredibly powerful figure in these parts.
30:15
Speaker 1: He was a solicitor, you know, and part of that
30:18
Speaker 1: Murdoch legal framework that we understand. So you're already dealing
30:23
Speaker 1: with an incredibly strong family, You've got a guy who's
30:27
Speaker 1: who's a big guy, who's like, I could help you
30:29
Speaker 1: with that wedding, and you're getting married soon. So there's
30:31
Speaker 1: like another level that this state was intimating that there
30:35
Speaker 1: was another intimidation going on as well, so that's something
30:39
Speaker 1: that we should keep in mind about this witness, but
30:41
Speaker 1: also that she's doing this in front of Alec. She's
30:45
Speaker 1: doing this right with Alec Murdock in the room. I mean,
30:47
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but be watching that interaction. Once again,
30:51
Speaker 1: it's so important to be able to see what's happening
30:53
Speaker 1: in that courtroom. And I would not be surprised if
30:56
Speaker 1: she did start crying because she's looking at this man
30:59
Speaker 1: who he's pointing the finger out to some degree right
31:02
Speaker 1: on the time frame and the alibi. But remember, there's
31:06
Speaker 1: a very good reason why this seat put her up
31:08
Speaker 1: there as well, not just because she can, you know,
31:11
Speaker 1: connect these dots. But this jury is a majority is female.
31:16
Speaker 1: So what were they doing as they're watching this interaction?
31:19
Speaker 1: This hardened look from the defendant over here, they're watching
31:23
Speaker 1: it very intently. It was really powerful. And there's more
31:27
Speaker 1: from another witness taking us in our cut one. Did
31:29
Speaker 1: you see the defendant there? I did? And did you
31:32
Speaker 1: have a conversation with him about the boat case? I didn't,
31:35
Speaker 1: all right, relate that conversation with the court. Please, yeah,
31:39
Speaker 1: I think I'm not certain that it was a fundraiser
31:43
Speaker 1: either for mister harpootlean or. It was a fundraiser for
31:47
Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham. Alex sees me and he comes across and
31:51
Speaker 1: he gets up close in my face and says, hey, bo,
31:55
Speaker 1: what's this. I'm hearing about what you're saying. I thought
31:59
Speaker 1: we were friends, And I replied, we are friends. If
32:05
Speaker 1: you don't think I can burn your house down, and
32:07
Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm not doing everything and I'm not
32:11
Speaker 1: going to do everything, You're wrong. You need to settle
32:13
Speaker 1: this case. The point of it was we're friends. I
32:17
Speaker 1: took it as he tried to intimidate me. He didn't
32:19
Speaker 1: intimidate me, and sort of bully me into backing off
32:25
Speaker 1: straight back out to Kristina Marinacas, jury consult and strategy
32:31
Speaker 1: advisor author, A pattern of vadier questions, Christia, what do
32:36
Speaker 1: you make of that testimony? Well, now we've got a
32:38
Speaker 1: problem because you've got a pattern. You know, jurors. What
32:42
Speaker 1: I've learned from doing this. We do focus groups and
32:44
Speaker 1: mock trials, and you could have jurors see the same
32:47
Speaker 1: witness testimony and then come away with different conclusions. But
32:51
Speaker 1: when you have multiple witnesses lining up suggesting the same thing,
32:55
Speaker 1: it creates a more cohesive, believable story for the prosecution.
32:59
Speaker 1: So how do you think that impacts a jury, Christina, Well,
33:04
Speaker 1: you know you said earlier that the state doesn't have
33:06
Speaker 1: to prove a motive, but from a jurist perspective, they
33:09
Speaker 1: need to see a motive because the lack of a
33:12
Speaker 1: motive to them is brings a reasonable doubt. And that's
33:15
Speaker 1: really what the defense is to prove here, is is
33:17
Speaker 1: just that there's a reasonable doubt. That's how you can
33:20
Speaker 1: get a conviction in these types of cases are going
33:22
Speaker 1: to acquittal, you know, talking as you know, the plaintiffs
33:25
Speaker 1: lawyer in this case, the fellow who is approached at
33:28
Speaker 1: this fundraiser for either or Poolian or Lindsey Graham. For
33:33
Speaker 1: Alec to come up to him and try to threaten
33:35
Speaker 1: him in that fashion does only one thing. And I'm
33:38
Speaker 1: the kind of lawyer that represents people who've had bad
33:41
Speaker 1: things happen to him in instances like that for the
33:43
Speaker 1: most part, And if a defendant comes up and tries
33:46
Speaker 1: to harass or intimidate me as the counsel for somebody
33:50
Speaker 1: who we believe is genuinely injured, first of all, it's infuriating,
33:55
Speaker 1: but we also know that we're going to get to
33:57
Speaker 1: cross examine that person later at a trial or a
33:59
Speaker 1: depth position and hang them out. And so to me,
34:04
Speaker 1: that just kind of shows that Murdoch is sort of
34:07
Speaker 1: stupid and thinks that he can get away with anything,
34:11
Speaker 1: and that may be more so helpful to a prosecution,
34:16
Speaker 1: to the prosecution and answering questions of juror might have
34:19
Speaker 1: about why this would happen. It may just be that Murdoch,
34:23
Speaker 1: you know, just behaves in ways that he thinks there
34:25
Speaker 1: are no consequences for his conduct. Leonard Romero joining us
34:29
Speaker 1: out of Pasadena, Forensic Firearms Examiner and ballistics expert. You
34:33
Speaker 1: can find him at Ballistics firearms Expert dot com. Leonard,
34:38
Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to what we're
34:41
Speaker 1: learning about gunshot residue in our cut four. About that
34:46
Speaker 1: rain jacket. Listen rain whatever, Subscribe me so I can
34:55
Speaker 1: check the bottom card. Yes, sir, my dates, the date
34:59
Speaker 1: and my initial are here in the bottom cuff. And
35:01
Speaker 1: tell the ladies and gentlemen, how did you process Where
35:04
Speaker 1: did you attempt to get particle lists? Basically the entire garment.
35:08
Speaker 1: We market it off in different sections again and where
35:11
Speaker 1: Megan advised me to collect from and I repeatedly dabbed
35:14
Speaker 1: the particle lift across each section until it last adhesive
35:20
Speaker 1: these particle lists. Yes, sir, we also sampled the inside
35:22
Speaker 1: of this garment as well. Did you test it or
35:26
Speaker 1: take a sample from the outside of the hood, Yes, sir,
35:28
Speaker 1: we did. Did you take sample from the inside of
35:30
Speaker 1: the it, Yes, sir, we did. When you're examining all
35:33
Speaker 1: of these items, do you wear gloves, yes, sir, to
35:35
Speaker 1: make sure we're not contaminating it, as well as to
35:37
Speaker 1: protect ourselves from anything that may be on the garment.
35:40
Speaker 1: You know, Leonard Romero, you're the expert. But I just
35:42
Speaker 1: want to tell you what my friends on Twitter, Insta
35:45
Speaker 1: and Facebook told me last night. They said it would
35:48
Speaker 1: be a cold day in h double l if they
35:51
Speaker 1: went hunting and a bright blue poncho or raincoat. And
35:57
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of that, but they're right. Okay,
36:02
Speaker 1: So that's said. What do you think about Jamie Hall,
36:06
Speaker 1: the scientists that found gunshot residue? What do you think
36:09
Speaker 1: about that testimony? Oh, she did a great job. Her
36:12
Speaker 1: collection techniques were consistent with the way we would go
36:16
Speaker 1: ahead and collect gunshot residue with these sticky little discs.
36:20
Speaker 1: I've done it hundreds of times. Could you explain exactly
36:23
Speaker 1: how it's done. It's light lifting baby powder. Could you
36:27
Speaker 1: explain it. It's very delicate process. Yes, man. What it
36:30
Speaker 1: is is it's primer gunshot residue. Primer gunshot residue comes
36:35
Speaker 1: from the rear portion of the gun when it's discharge,
36:38
Speaker 1: it comes off the primer of the cartridge, as opposed
36:41
Speaker 1: to coming from the front of the barrel. This comes
36:43
Speaker 1: out from the rear or the size of the firearm. Now,
36:47
Speaker 1: if we look at this case in totality, we've got
36:51
Speaker 1: seven eight shots that were fired from large guns, shot gun,
36:55
Speaker 1: and of course that three hundred blackout rifle. So we've
36:59
Speaker 1: got a lot of gunshot residue in the area, so
37:02
Speaker 1: to speak. So what they're gonna do is they're going
37:04
Speaker 1: to take these small metal tabs that have an adhesive
37:08
Speaker 1: on it, and they're going to dab the areas on
37:11
Speaker 1: the clothing or on the individual and to go ahead
37:15
Speaker 1: and see if they can collect any of these small particles.
37:19
Speaker 1: These particles exist in small spheres and they're consistent with barium, antimony,
37:24
Speaker 1: and lead, and then they go ahead and put it
37:27
Speaker 1: in a scanning electron microscope where they can physically see
37:31
Speaker 1: the particles and then they can also chemically analyze the
37:35
Speaker 1: particles to come to the conclusion that it is gunshot residue.
37:40
Speaker 1: You know, And Emerson WCIV ABC from where did authorities
37:47
Speaker 1: get the raincoat? Where was it found? Well, you know,
37:51
Speaker 1: there's a couple of issues with that as well, and
37:53
Speaker 1: one of them is that this blue raincoat wasn't found
37:56
Speaker 1: until three months after the murders found at Almeda. Now,
38:00
Speaker 1: according to that witness that we just heard, the one
38:03
Speaker 1: that started wrote down on the stand talking about her
38:06
Speaker 1: confrontation with Alec Murdoch, Shelley Smith was the caretaker and
38:11
Speaker 1: what we learned yesterday was that she was in the
38:14
Speaker 1: house and she hears a knock on the bedroom window
38:16
Speaker 1: at like six thirty in the morning and Alec comes
38:19
Speaker 1: in carrying what appears to be a big blue something
38:23
Speaker 1: bundled up in his arms and he high tails it
38:26
Speaker 1: upstairs to the second bedroom. Now, this isn't an area
38:29
Speaker 1: where she goes very often, so she doesn't from what
38:33
Speaker 1: we understand, she didn't really investigate it for what it
38:37
Speaker 1: was worth. Three months later, Sled comes and does a
38:40
Speaker 1: search of the mother's home, Alec mother's home and discovers
38:45
Speaker 1: this raincoat in the back of the closet. Now, right now,
38:48
Speaker 1: we've just been allowed to bring that blue raincoat into evidence.
38:53
Speaker 1: That was just decided this morning. There was a lot
38:55
Speaker 1: of back and forth between the defense and the state
38:57
Speaker 1: because this witness, Shelley Smith, just wasn't one hundred percent
39:02
Speaker 1: sure what it was. Was it a tarp, was it
39:05
Speaker 1: a raincoat? So of course defense is using that and
39:08
Speaker 1: getting right in there to try and say, hey, we
39:11
Speaker 1: don't even know what she saw. Why are we Why
39:14
Speaker 1: are we even using this raincoat that's gotten GSR on
39:17
Speaker 1: it if we don't even know that it's tied to
39:20
Speaker 1: what happened in this whole timeline of events. So there's
39:24
Speaker 1: they're going to use that. That's just something we need
39:26
Speaker 1: to be aware of that that is something that defense
39:29
Speaker 1: is going to use. Is this witness wasn't clear on
39:32
Speaker 1: what she saw was it a tarp or a raincoat?
39:34
Speaker 1: So there's this is gonna still come up a few
39:37
Speaker 1: more times. And so bottom line, the blue raincoat was
39:42
Speaker 1: found at Murdog's mother's home upstairs. Is that correct? That's
39:45
Speaker 1: what we've been told yes, and an Emerson. What day
39:49
Speaker 1: was it, as it relates to the murderers that this
39:52
Speaker 1: blue raincoat was brought to his mother's home by Alex
39:57
Speaker 1: murdog What day the day after the murders, week after
40:00
Speaker 1: the murders, win, I want to say, this was three
40:03
Speaker 1: days after um okay Randolph Senior passed away, So this
40:08
Speaker 1: was after the murder. So this is the tenth is
40:11
Speaker 1: when he died. Then there was a funeral and that's
40:13
Speaker 1: it was after that because the tenths were still up
40:16
Speaker 1: after the murders of Paul and Maggie. Time stories with me.
40:35
Speaker 1: It'sy grace. You know, doctor Michelle Dupree. Yesterday you said something.
40:42
Speaker 1: You said that the caretaker, Alex Murdoch's mother's caretaker, thought
40:50
Speaker 1: it was very odd that he came so early in
40:53
Speaker 1: the morning, and I went, no, he came late at
40:56
Speaker 1: night the night of the murders. And you said he
41:00
Speaker 1: also came early in the morning. This is what you
41:03
Speaker 1: were talking about. Because I've never heard you make a
41:07
Speaker 1: mistake before in the facts or your analysis. And when
41:10
Speaker 1: you win it was in the morning. I'm like, no,
41:12
Speaker 1: it was at night the night of the murders. You're
41:14
Speaker 1: talking about this and that was odd that he shows
41:17
Speaker 1: up at six thirty in the morning to go hide
41:21
Speaker 1: a blue raincoat. You are absolutely right, doctor Debrae. Yes, Nancy,
41:26
Speaker 1: she said that he had never done that in the
41:28
Speaker 1: three years that she had worked for that family, that
41:30
Speaker 1: he had never come early in the morning and only
41:33
Speaker 1: rarely at night. Absolutely correct with the odd hours. To
41:38
Speaker 1: Leonard Romero, firearms examiner, ballistics expert, gunshot residue is so
41:47
Speaker 1: easy to get rid of. I mean you could do
41:49
Speaker 1: like this and it's got it's literally like baby powder
41:52
Speaker 1: or that, or wash your hands. That's why you don't
41:55
Speaker 1: want to let it defend and go the bathroom on
41:57
Speaker 1: the scene if there's been a shooting, because all he's
41:59
Speaker 1: got to do wash his hands and it's all gone.
42:04
Speaker 1: It's really a miracle that this rankout was found still
42:10
Speaker 1: bearing gunshot residue, is it not? That is correct. It
42:14
Speaker 1: is absolutely correct. Because this stuff is transitory. It can
42:19
Speaker 1: be washed off very quickly. Just as you alluded to suspects,
42:23
Speaker 1: I've had them where they're rubbing their pants to try
42:25
Speaker 1: to get rid of it on their pants, or you know,
42:28
Speaker 1: they're in a chase, they're running. We lose the gunshot residue.
42:32
Speaker 1: But in essence, he preserved the evidence here, okay, by
42:36
Speaker 1: securing it. The other thing that's of interest here is
42:40
Speaker 1: how the caretaker describes how he was handling the raincoat
42:45
Speaker 1: as if there was something in it, something was carried
42:49
Speaker 1: in it, or just the way he was holding it,
42:52
Speaker 1: as opposed to it's just a raincoat. We put it
42:55
Speaker 1: on our arm or put it on her hand and
42:57
Speaker 1: walk with it. So that's kind of an interest as well.
43:00
Speaker 1: But it looks like the evidence was preserved. It's placed inside,
43:04
Speaker 1: it's folded up or I mean with me, I would
43:07
Speaker 1: hang it up to let it dry out, or go
43:09
Speaker 1: hang it in a closet with the other raincoats and
43:12
Speaker 1: coats and Emerson wciv. Is there an intimation that he
43:16
Speaker 1: carried a gun in it or that he had been
43:20
Speaker 1: wearing it? Oh more than an intimation, I mean, I
43:22
Speaker 1: think the objection was sustained. But basically at one point
43:27
Speaker 1: he said, is it like it was? It like the
43:30
Speaker 1: State was asking miss Smith, was it like he was
43:33
Speaker 1: carrying a rifle? And she said yes, And they, of
43:36
Speaker 1: course defense one objection. You know, we don't know that
43:39
Speaker 1: it was a rifle, and that and those are the
43:42
Speaker 1: kind of things that they get objected to. But the
43:45
Speaker 1: jury heard it right. I mean they heard him say
43:47
Speaker 1: the word rifle. Yeah, the bell has been wrong. It
43:50
Speaker 1: cannot be unrung now. And see that's where you need
43:54
Speaker 1: a really quick lawyer to jump up before the answer
43:59
Speaker 1: can come in. But she gave the answer. They worked
44:03
Speaker 1: quick on the draw. Pardon the pun. They show jumped
44:06
Speaker 1: up the minda. They are the question before she could answer.
44:09
Speaker 1: That's why they're getting paid to do. It's like a
44:11
Speaker 1: gun slinger. For Pete's sake. Guys. There's one other thing,
44:15
Speaker 1: and I don't know if everybody caught it or not,
44:19
Speaker 1: but I want you to hear something that's missing. Take
44:24
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut three. Can you show these
44:27
Speaker 1: to the jury, sir? Show the jury will put you.
44:37
Speaker 1: I'll hold the show the jury what you so with shoes,
44:42
Speaker 1: when we collect from them, we're going to collect again
44:44
Speaker 1: to the area that would be closest to the discharge
44:46
Speaker 1: of the firearms, so the front of the shoe. Um
44:48
Speaker 1: So in this case, I would do the area where
44:50
Speaker 1: the laces would typically be and the front toe. Depending
44:54
Speaker 1: on how well the adhesive continues, it will depend on
44:57
Speaker 1: how far back I go, but I'll start with the
44:59
Speaker 1: toe and then work area down the sides. Is this
45:06
Speaker 1: the condition they were when you saw him one eight
45:08
Speaker 1: twenty one? Thing, there was more grassy type material on
45:11
Speaker 1: him when I had them. Do you remember did you
45:13
Speaker 1: see anything you look like blood? I did not make
45:16
Speaker 1: any note of that. No, sir, well you know to
45:20
Speaker 1: you doctor at Michelle Dupree, that doesn't mean to me
45:24
Speaker 1: that he was not there at the time of the murders.
45:28
Speaker 1: It means to me that he changed his shoes. We
45:31
Speaker 1: know he changed his clothes that day. Hey, Christine, do
45:34
Speaker 1: you have the picture of his wardrobe change the video
45:38
Speaker 1: that was taken that afternoon. He's got on lawn and
45:40
Speaker 1: pants and a shirt. And then that evening when the
45:43
Speaker 1: cops got there after the shootings, he had in a
45:45
Speaker 1: white T shirt and short there. Oh, thank you, Christine.
45:50
Speaker 1: You already had that one your sleeve, didn't you. That's
45:52
Speaker 1: all in one day. Now, if my husband ran in
45:55
Speaker 1: and did a wardrobe change, I would call his mother
45:58
Speaker 1: and say, something is wrong. David is doing wardrobe changes
46:01
Speaker 1: in the middle of the day. He changed his shoes too.
46:04
Speaker 1: Look Look at what we see his shoes right there?
46:08
Speaker 1: There what were they called an carry slide on Loaford Sperry. Yes,
46:16
Speaker 1: and then when the cops get there, he's got on
46:19
Speaker 1: the tennis shoes, so of course there was no blood.
46:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Dupree Nancy. Also, we don't know if he has
46:25
Speaker 1: on a T shirt or at least I cantel under
46:28
Speaker 1: that blue shirt. And if I remember correctly, there were
46:32
Speaker 1: actually three gunshot particles gunshot residue particles found on this
46:37
Speaker 1: infamous white T shirt. If that was under his clothing
46:41
Speaker 1: that we don't know where it is now, then that
46:43
Speaker 1: could certainly be something that is significant. And Emerson tell
46:47
Speaker 1: me about the marks the spots on his white T shirt. Well,
46:52
Speaker 1: once again, that's a huge bone contention between the defense
46:55
Speaker 1: and in the state right now because the States said
46:59
Speaker 1: that they found blood spatter from an incident on that
47:04
Speaker 1: like over a hundred blood spatter spots on that T shirt.
47:07
Speaker 1: The defense has been fighting at tooth and nail before
47:11
Speaker 1: this trial ever started. It was the one piece that
47:14
Speaker 1: we thought was going to be just a lynchpin to
47:17
Speaker 1: this case, and it hasn't gotten presented yet. We're thinking
47:22
Speaker 1: it's because the prosecution, because they I think that the
47:25
Speaker 1: state felt like they had done such a good job
47:28
Speaker 1: of the defense had done such a good job of
47:32
Speaker 1: discounting the expert they had on blood spatter that they
47:35
Speaker 1: went ahead and we're seeing a well, we feel like
47:39
Speaker 1: we've seen a shift in their focus and they're now
47:42
Speaker 1: saying that he changed his clothes. So that kind of
47:44
Speaker 1: takes the pressure off of having to bring this blood
47:47
Speaker 1: spatter up again with this T shirt. So this is
47:49
Speaker 1: what we've heard about the T shirt in pre trial motions,
47:52
Speaker 1: trying to get it in. Still hasn't gotten in, and
47:55
Speaker 1: I feel like the state has moved on and said
47:57
Speaker 1: he changed his clothes. So whatever was on that T shirt,
48:00
Speaker 1: if it's transferred, then so be it. We're not going
48:03
Speaker 1: to try and try and prove anything because we haven't
48:05
Speaker 1: heard anything yet. But I mean, should I believe murdog
48:08
Speaker 1: or my lying eyes, because look, he's got on Sperry
48:12
Speaker 1: slip ons right there that afternoon, and when the cops
48:15
Speaker 1: get there, he's got on a different outfit and ten
48:18
Speaker 1: issues that miraculously have no blood on them. Let me
48:22
Speaker 1: ask you another question about gunshot residue. Leonard Romero joining
48:26
Speaker 1: us out of Pasadena. When you shoot a gun, gunshot
48:30
Speaker 1: residue will only fly a very limited distance. How far
48:38
Speaker 1: would it go, Leonard, We don't know exactly because we
48:41
Speaker 1: don't have the weapons, but it is going to go
48:42
Speaker 1: a limited distance. And it also depends the environment that
48:46
Speaker 1: you're in. If you're fairly closed in environment, you're going
48:51
Speaker 1: to have a lot of it on you, but it's
48:53
Speaker 1: limited in its distance. You're correct in that, Yes, long
48:56
Speaker 1: story short? Can I just break it down? If they're
49:00
Speaker 1: gunshot residue on that raincoat, that means that Rankoat was
49:06
Speaker 1: within at most three feet from the gun when it
49:12
Speaker 1: was fired there. Would you disagree with that, Leonard? No,
49:17
Speaker 1: given where it's at. Also, I would add that it
49:21
Speaker 1: is a distinct possibility that he carried either ammunition components
49:26
Speaker 1: in there, or the rifles itself or a rifle. Typically,
49:30
Speaker 1: it's just a given that gunshot residue will not travel
49:37
Speaker 1: beyond three to five feet. So number one, what was
49:42
Speaker 1: gunshot residue doing on the raincoat that the caregiver, Mischelle
49:48
Speaker 1: Smith sees him coming in and hiding upstairs at his
49:51
Speaker 1: mother's house. A lot swirling in the courtroom right now?
49:56
Speaker 1: And when are we going to hear from cousin Eddie
50:01
Speaker 1: Curtis Edward aka Eddie Smith, that admits he shot Murdog
50:08
Speaker 1: in the head. There's so much coming out about that,
50:10
Speaker 1: their rumors were swirling. We definitely expect to see cousin
50:14
Speaker 1: Eddie this week. I thought it was going to be
50:16
Speaker 1: earlier in this week, but we're now thinking that it
50:18
Speaker 1: might get shoved down a little bit down into the
50:21
Speaker 1: later part of this week, just because there's so much
50:23
Speaker 1: testimony on these alleged financial crimes that still need to
50:26
Speaker 1: go through. Cousin Eddie is critical to the state, of course,
50:31
Speaker 1: because I mean even the defendants of attorneys say that
50:36
Speaker 1: this was his longtime drug dealer. Cousin Eddie also was
50:40
Speaker 1: a relative, you know, two removed. Cousin's removed, but cousin
50:47
Speaker 1: Eddie has been in his life since from what I
50:50
Speaker 1: can tell, at least twenty thirteen, as a person who
50:54
Speaker 1: he leaned on for all kinds of odd jobs that
50:57
Speaker 1: we're going to hear about, and we're going to hear
50:59
Speaker 1: about as legend connection to the drug connection and with Eddie,
51:05
Speaker 1: there's a lot that came out in free trial. I'm
51:08
Speaker 1: thinking we're going to hear from him for sure. By Friday.
51:11
Speaker 1: They've got to get it out there because I don't
51:12
Speaker 1: think the words coming on hands right now. We'll go
51:15
Speaker 1: pass next much into next week. I think we probably
51:19
Speaker 1: only have another week with the prosecution. Yeah, if the
51:23
Speaker 1: word is and we'll see if it's true, because there's
51:25
Speaker 1: a lot of words floating around the courthouse that Curtis
51:30
Speaker 1: Edward Smith will testify and I put his lawyer on
51:34
Speaker 1: the hot seat. I knew she wasn't going to answer
51:36
Speaker 1: that would violate her attorney client oath. But I think
51:39
Speaker 1: it's going to state that Murdog told him he shot
51:45
Speaker 1: Paul and Maggie. That's the best case scenario for the state.
51:48
Speaker 1: He might chicken out on the stand and waffle once
51:51
Speaker 1: he's right there in front of Murdog. We'll see what happens.
51:54
Speaker 1: But I would say that's pretty much as you're indicating
51:57
Speaker 1: and the culmination of the state's case. Hey, and quick question.
52:01
Speaker 1: I got a hundred questions about is Murdock eating something
52:06
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. No, he's chewing on something. Though I've
52:09
Speaker 1: been watching too. I think he's chewing on some gum
52:12
Speaker 1: or something. That's what it looked like. But it also
52:14
Speaker 1: is like this weird clenching his jaw. But I think
52:17
Speaker 1: he's been popping a little bit of gum or something
52:19
Speaker 1: and chewing gum. Okay, let me throw that very quickly
52:22
Speaker 1: to Christina Marinacas, jury consulting and strategy advisor. He needs
52:28
Speaker 1: to take a page out of Simpson. OJ Simpson, dear,
52:30
Speaker 1: I bring that specter up, who sat there and seemed
52:35
Speaker 1: not over the top jovial, but at least friendly toward
52:37
Speaker 1: the jurars. People think he's eating. I had fifty questions
52:42
Speaker 1: pop up on social what is he eating? Whatever he's doing,
52:45
Speaker 1: he needs to stop for his own sake. One thing
52:48
Speaker 1: that we tell witnesses defendants is that the microphone is
52:51
Speaker 1: always on, the cameras always rolling. You should assume that
52:54
Speaker 1: you were being watched by those juries all the time,
52:56
Speaker 1: from the minute you walk into the parking lot all
52:59
Speaker 1: the way in the restroom. You always have to be mindful,
53:02
Speaker 1: and jurs pick up on those things. One thing that
53:05
Speaker 1: jurors will take signs of nervousness, like chewing gum or hedging,
53:12
Speaker 1: not making good eye contact. They assume those are signs
53:14
Speaker 1: of dishonesty or signs of being uncomfortable, and so jurs
53:18
Speaker 1: may make conclusions from that behavior that shows he's nervous
53:21
Speaker 1: about what's being set up on that stand. And also
53:23
Speaker 1: we've set him breakdown crying a couple of times, And
53:26
Speaker 1: I can't help but think he's not crying because he's
53:29
Speaker 1: sorry he's did it. He's crying because he's sorry he
53:32
Speaker 1: got caught. Because I'm analyzing, when does Murdoch start crying
53:38
Speaker 1: as opposed to what's happening in the courtroom at that moment.
53:41
Speaker 1: Is it extremely probitive? Is it helping the state? So,
53:46
Speaker 1: Martin Tay, you've tried a lot of jury trials, how
53:49
Speaker 1: do you rate Murdoch in front of the jury. Well,
53:52
Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked me that, Nancy, I am because
53:55
Speaker 1: you are hearing the story about as we're hearing the
53:58
Speaker 1: story about the jury isn't like him chewing or eating.
54:02
Speaker 1: I agree with you. And it reminded me of a
54:04
Speaker 1: trial that I had, and it was in a very
54:06
Speaker 1: small courtroom, and my client was unfortunately an alcoholic, and
54:12
Speaker 1: she'd been the victim of some pediat some podiatric malpractice
54:16
Speaker 1: and lost her toes and her foot, and so we
54:19
Speaker 1: would come into court every morning, at every single morning,
54:23
Speaker 1: she smelled like tequila and the jury was about an
54:27
Speaker 1: arm's length away from me, and I said, miss client, please,
54:31
Speaker 1: you'd got to stop your drinking by midnight, because the
54:34
Speaker 1: jury can smell it coming from either you or me,
54:39
Speaker 1: neither of which is going to help our case. And
54:42
Speaker 1: so y'all right that the jury does watch, They do
54:45
Speaker 1: absolutely watch the defendant, and they try to read into
54:48
Speaker 1: them and determine in this case, the defendant, determine how
54:52
Speaker 1: they're acting an arson. I tried mark Tay, where a
54:57
Speaker 1: woman burned down an entire apart my complex because she
55:01
Speaker 1: was mad at her girlfriend. And I had a witness,
55:03
Speaker 1: an eyewitness that came in. It was August in Atlanta,
55:06
Speaker 1: and she had on a big faked fur hat and
55:09
Speaker 1: you could smell her a mile away. She waked a boos.
55:13
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know the jury could see me going,
55:16
Speaker 1: oh dear, whoo whoo. Okay, So according you never did
55:20
Speaker 1: grade him mark tape. But I can tell you this,
55:23
Speaker 1: you know, eating whatever he's eating at the table. Yeah,
55:28
Speaker 1: so what yeah, however, yeah, what's happening an addiction? How
55:35
Speaker 1: did I know you were not done yet? Go ahead?
55:39
Speaker 1: He maybe maybe he maybe gotten addicted to nicotine. It
55:42
Speaker 1: could be nicarette. I don't know what the heck he's chewing,
55:45
Speaker 1: but it makes him look bad to be constantly sitting
55:47
Speaker 1: there chewing is good, it's not good. Well, if people
55:51
Speaker 1: online on social media think he's eating snacks at the table,
55:55
Speaker 1: then somebody on the jury may think it too, and
55:57
Speaker 1: he needs to stop. Enough said about his snacks and Emerson,
56:02
Speaker 1: what's happening next, We're about to go back in the courtroom. Well,
56:04
Speaker 1: we certainly have a lot more testimony to get through,
56:07
Speaker 1: don't we. I mean we if there. This is where
56:09
Speaker 1: the state has to be incredibly careful, in my opinion.
56:14
Speaker 1: We talked about it last night on our podcast on
56:17
Speaker 1: Unsolved South Carolina with Charlie Condon. We were talking about
56:21
Speaker 1: who is the former attorney general. We were talking about
56:23
Speaker 1: how they really really need to pay attention to what's
56:27
Speaker 1: going on with the juror's ability to take in all
56:30
Speaker 1: this financial information. Are they going to be bringing up
56:34
Speaker 1: some of the actual alleged victims right now? We know
56:38
Speaker 1: a lot of those victims, and we've already heard them
56:40
Speaker 1: without the jury present, with Tony Satterfield talking about what
56:44
Speaker 1: happened to his mom. So I'm expecting to start to
56:47
Speaker 1: see some of these guys rolling out before we bring
56:51
Speaker 1: to the crescendo the cousin Eddie testimony. Right, So we
56:55
Speaker 1: are going to work our way through this. But but
56:57
Speaker 1: you know, they've caught. As we were talking about, it's
57:00
Speaker 1: sort of like the dog chasing the car or the bus.
57:02
Speaker 1: If they catch they caught the bus. The state caught
57:05
Speaker 1: the bus. They get to bring in all this financial
57:08
Speaker 1: information right now, But what do you do with the bus.
57:11
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to be careful that you don't
57:13
Speaker 1: overwhelm this jury with numbers and facts and figures. It
57:17
Speaker 1: gets boring and tedious. It's a hard set, you know.
57:20
Speaker 1: So I think they're gonna have to get a lot
57:21
Speaker 1: of serious about this. A lot of times during trials,
57:25
Speaker 1: I would have horrible nightmares during the trials and well
57:28
Speaker 1: after the verdict had come in, And I had one
57:31
Speaker 1: last night, and it was about Maggie Murdog and she
57:36
Speaker 1: sees her own child getting murdered. And for a mother
57:44
Speaker 1: to lose their child, this is one of her only
57:47
Speaker 1: two children, just shot dead. And then she starts running.
57:52
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if you'd want to
57:54
Speaker 1: live after you see your child get shot dead. And
57:57
Speaker 1: then she starts running, owing to be murdered herself off.
58:00
Speaker 1: That's what the jury is going to be thinking about.
58:02
Speaker 1: I wonder if they're having dreams too open headed back
58:04
Speaker 1: in the courthouse, keep you're joining us here