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Gathering is my art · The Generalist World Pod

• 0:00
  Hey, it's Millie, and welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. This is the podcast for people who have never fit into a box at work, and to be honest, we don't really want to.
• 0:09
  Every week, I chat with a new member of Generalist World, and I share their stories, their philosophies, their frameworks of how they are living their life and creating work that actually aligns with their generalist skill set.
• 0:22
  So if you are someone who has had a non-linear, squiggly career, this is the podcast for you. One week in generalist world is like a year in the real world. It's like dog years, you know? [laughs] Yeah.
• 0:35
  Well, especially last week with the, with the International Generalist Day. Tell me about it. T- how was your meetup? Talk us through it. I'm proud. I can tell you that what I'm most proud of the meetup is that,
• 0:49
  is that I think the content or the flow of the event was very cool. And to me, to me, a meetup, a gathering is like my, my canvas. This is my art. So gathering is my art. It's what I do, hosting.
• 1:03
  And what I'm proud of is that I have, well, different business, but I'm usually in charge of the flow of the event.
• 1:09
  And so on that day, I'm proud that we really let people share things that are very useful for each other.
• 1:17
  So here's a cool follow I, I, I wanted to share is that we get people to introduce, uh, do a fun warm-up, and then after that, people introduce each other by sharing what is something you did recently that give you great satisfaction.
• 1:32
  Mm. And the whole thesis of that is that we-- the more we pay attention to what we give us great satisfaction, then-- and the more we can lean on it.
• 1:41
  And, and, and then that's a que-question that I learned from the Luke Buki is an author for, for the book, One Thing, which phenomenal book.
• 1:48
  So, so I asked-- let people ask each other that question, "What did you do that gave you great satisfaction?" And then the follow-up is, "What specifically did you do?" Like, s- "Tell me very specifically what about it?"
• 2:00
  And then- Mm... the next one is, "What about it that is so satisfying for you?" So really, like, dig very deep. And so what's-- Can I ask you this question?
• 2:11
  What is something that you've done recently that gave you great satisfaction? Yeah, I, I love being asked this because it, it helps me crystallize also.
• 2:20
  So the story of what happened, the, the outcome of the story is, okay, I, with a team of, uh, four of us, we won the hackathon with OpenAI, so we, we got one year of ChatGPT Pro, where everybody's complaining about no-- have-- not having token.
• 2:36
  I have too much token to use. So, so that, that's the end, that's the end story. But the, the thing that was so satisfying though is that, number one is that I did not plan to participate. Mm.
• 2:47
  So there's an element of, of surprise.
• 2:49
  And what happened is that because I've been running the AI learning group in, in, in Ho Chi Minh City for few months regularly every week, one day I met someone who is from a big consulting firm, who's-- he's an AI lead, and he just heard about me online from people doing this.
• 3:05
  And he, he came and he told me about his challenge doing AI in the, in the big company. So I listened to that. I'm like, "Okay, that sounds like something I don't know about, but I want to learn more.
• 3:15
  I want to be useful." And then I told him, "Well, I heard that there's a hackathon this weekend, so you should come and join us, and then I'll find you-- I find you the team of people who can solve this problem.
• 3:25
  It sounds like there's something here." So one thing that I did that was satisfying was that I follow the-- I follow what's real. I follow the real challenge.
• 3:34
  So, so, you know, doing my thing and somebody found me and then follow what's real, try to really be useful.
• 3:39
  And then I pull together three very good friends and talents that I know in my, my network, and we join the-- we join that and some are more technical and so on. So we have a very good team.
• 3:51
  And then we, we, we did join the hackathon, and each of us does our thing. I do my, my part, and I know that we will win because we have a very good problem statement. Like, I know that our problem- Mm... is real.
• 4:05
  This is like somebody having a real problem telling us, so, so I like that a lot. So that's satisfying was to pulling together a team.
• 4:12
  The thing that is most satisfying is that I could not plan in, in advance how to do this. Totally. I was just pulling string along.
• 4:18
  I respond to one, to one thing, and one thing lead to another, lead to another, lead to another. To me, that's the best part. Just responding along the way. So satisfying.
• 4:28
  It's called leadership, but it's really about-- to me, it's about responding and bringing things together. Again, during my day, my day like Boozies do this. Yeah.
• 4:37
  One of my, like, life philosophies is to take the step and the path will appear, and I, I truly live my life by that, where I'm like, "I don't know what's gonna happen in five steps-" Yeah... "or ten steps."
• 4:50
  Maybe I have some theory- Yeah... but all I know is that if I have the momentum and I take the step, there will be another little stone that appears. I'm like, "Ah, this way. Okay. This is the way we're going." Yeah.
• 5:02
  Yep, yep, yep. And, and I think one of the things that is very important for us, well, generalists especially, sometime we feel like we are pulled in a different direction.
• 5:13
  What I'm reminding myself now is it's okay to be pulled in different direction, but maintain momentum and try to build up momentum.
• 5:19
  The momentum of action, the momentum of pulling string, I think that's more important because I think we are at our best when we are in the motion of, of, of momentum.
• 5:31
  And so, so, like, to me, that's a day-to-day, just building that is very important. Mm. And, like, motion can also be slow. You know? Like, motion doesn't have to be a, a highway, like, going full speed.
• 5:44
  There-- It reminds me of that quote. It's like, "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." So, like- Yeah... you're going slow, and that's smooth, and because you're going slow and smooth, then you're actually going faster.
• 5:56
  I l- I, I love- Yeah... this as a, as a beginning because it instantly gives me lots of threads to go from. So I'm wondering if we could kind of frame this conversation for people.
• 6:05
  You've already said that, you know, your, your art is gathering people and creating these spaces and being a host. So can you give us a bit- Yeah... of a flavor of what shape has your work been?
• 6:18
  What are the threads that have followed you through your, your career and the work that you do?
• 6:25
  Huh, I would say that I have been very spoiled as a, as a worker, as a, as a somebody who does some work in this who I've been very spoiled by my experience joining a nonprofit.
• 6:35
  I was a teenager back then, 2011, so that was 15 years ago, as a high school student in Singapore, and the nonprofit was called Southeast Asia Service Leadership Network. Very formative experience for me.
• 6:48
  What we did was to bring together college student who care about service with our philosophy called servant leadership, as some of people might know about this here, servant leadership, Robert Greenleaf.
• 7:00
  And I work with high school student from country in Southeast Asia for next... to, to do a project together for a few weeks. And
• 7:08
  one thing that shaped me from that, that involvement with the, with the nonprofit is that the way to really change someone's life is to give them the experience of working together with people who are very different from them, or on the surface very different from them, but work together on a thing that we all care deeply about.
• 7:27
  It's absolutely life-changing for every-... up to... I think it's always true.
• 7:33
  And like for example, right, at that time for me was I'm a Vietnamese guy, but I w- I brought in students who are some white American, then we have some from Latin America, and then we work.
• 7:42
  These are college student all around the world, and some are super wealthy family and some are, you know, like financial aid like me.
• 7:48
  And then we work with the local student in, in, in, in Malaysia who are Chinese, Indian, and Malay and who don't talk to each other. Like, the entire thing is just like,
• 7:57
  you know, people talk about diversity, but this is just like we just manage to tolerate each other and then, you know, living together, doing things together for two weeks in faraway places.
• 8:06
  And what we got from that is, yeah, like, if you can really work together, that's itself life-changing. There's a- Mm... the level of sincerity in the effort of working together, especially with people very different.
• 8:23
  And so that experience really shaped me in terms of, like, how I wanted my work to be in the world, is that I wanted the experience that really touch hearts of the people involved, with myself included.
• 8:36
  I, I, I really like work on things that we really care about, not half-hearted, but wholehearted about. And I wrote about that also in, like, my, my newsletter.
• 8:45
  I call it wholehearted for that reason, because just wholeheartedly working together i- i- is so essential.
• 8:52
  And so the, the, the shape of the gathering I have, I think number one is that it has to be wholehearted people who are there who really want to be there, whether it's a dinner party or is it a, is it a project or is it a work engagement retreat, a workshop that I facilitate, like, you, you really want to be there.
• 9:08
  And then we work on the things that really matters to us. So it's not purely intellectually ideas, right? I always try to bring it to the personal level.
• 9:18
  So there's a saying that the, the personal is political, the personal is economic, and the personal is, is, is, uh- Yeah... right.
• 9:27
  And, and, and I think one of the danger of modern work is that people, including ourself, are too de- too abstracted from the thing that matters. And, and like money, for example, is a very important topic, right?
• 9:39
  Uh, many project fail because of no conversation about money, same, right? You really have to talk to go very deep into it.
• 9:46
  So yeah, my, my, my, the, the, the shape and the flavor of my gathering has always been about bringing people together to work on the thing that truly matters to them and to open up that quality of relating. I love that.
• 9:59
  The quality of relating. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me, you know, of, of Generalist World.
• 10:04
  Since day one, I've felt this, like, external pressure from, like, the world of business to, like, get really narrow on an ICP on, like- Yeah...
• 10:16
  get really narrow on the exact member of who is in Generalist World, and I've always felt such a resistance to it because I'm like- Yeah...
• 10:24
  the whole point is that there is a writer from India and a scientist from Australia and an engineer from San Francisco and a community builder from Vietnam, and like the, the demographics on paper, like these people don't look anything alike.
• 10:43
  They're from different parts of the world. Yeah. They've had different careers.
• 10:46
  But I think what com- I'm learning what brings people in Generalist World together is this, like, underlying desire to have an impact, to work on meaningful things, to collaborate.
• 11:00
  They're like deeply, deeply collaborative. And so I see the parallels between Generalist World and kind of the work that you've done. Yeah. And, and that's why I said I'm spoiled because since then I have not- Yeah...
• 11:12
  I have managed to survive by living and working this way. I remember I tried to-- I used to work in a professional environment where I feel a little bit distant from the work and I'm like, "Ah, man, I feel disengaged.
• 11:26
  I can't," and then I just find myself slowly just disengaged. I, I learned, I learned recently that when I feel disengaged from the work, I cannot blame other people. It is on me to reach out and say and ask for- Mm...
• 11:40
  for help in the way that, well, like, tell me more about how you started this journey. Let's say I talk to a founder I worked for in the past, right? What, what motivated on you, you on this journey? What is the story?
• 11:50
  Like, I have to take responsibility- Mm... when I'm disengaged to learn more about what to do to care and, and, and that's really on me, and I think that's one of those things that is a bit...
• 12:03
  It's paradoxical because so-called worker engagement is a big topic in the people field, in the HR field, right?
• 12:10
  You know, you make sure people are engaged, but it's really, it's very personal thing and we, we cannot fix the disengagement of other people. Yeah.
• 12:20
  This is something I learned, I think, in my 20s, like in my late 20s after going through multiple startups and various levels of toxicity in teams. [laughs] And, you know- Yeah, I know that...
• 12:32
  uh, and I, I re- I really, I'm so glad I learned it. I r- probably around 30 when I really embodied it, and that was like things can be a me problem.
• 12:41
  And so that's not to say that I am the problem, but it's like I could be the solution. So like- Yeah...
• 12:48
  if there is something happening in a toxic culture or toxic team, if I make it a me problem, it's not saying- Yeah...
• 12:55
  I'm going to be the fixer and solve everything and, like, betray my boundaries to, to fix that, but it's saying, "Okay, what, wh- where is the agency and the responsibility that I have in this?"
• 13:08
  And it could be communication. It could be setting boundaries. Yeah. It could be leaving. Could be like, "It's a me problem-" Yeah... "and I'm gonna leave because I can't, I can't actually have an impact there." Yeah.
• 13:19
  I'll share with you that I have a motto that I have come up with my, in my own life experience is, "Nobody is coming to save you, and everybody is very willing to help you." Mm. People forget this. Yeah. It's, it...
• 13:35
  Both are true. Both are true. Nobody's coming to save you, and everybody's very willing to help you. And I think when we start to see the world through that frame, particularly the second one, particularly the- Right...
• 13:47
  the, the second bit of people are willing to help you, I think there is this, like, narrative in the world that, you know, it's very individual and we don't, we don't go and bring our neighbors bins in anymore. You know?
• 13:59
  We're, we're, we're, we're less neighborly, which I'm, like, on a lifelong mission to, like, reverse that. I'm, like, living- [laughs]... in community, and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, more, more neighborly."
• 14:10
  And I think when you, when you have the bias toward everyone is willing to help you, of course maybe that's not, like, 100% true as in not everyone is willing, but if you have that bias toward believing on the spectrum people are more willing to help, then you will receive more help and support just by the nature- Yeah...
• 14:32
  of believing that is true. That, so that, right, so 100% with that which is that belief that people are willing to help. That's why the, the two phrases go together.
• 14:40
  'Cause the moment we, we completely own the, that nobody's coming to save us, I think with that sense of responsibility, we show up, we do things. And then when people also see us doing stuff, people want to help.
• 14:53
  Like, nobody wants to... I would say not many people want to help people who are not doing anything about a situation. We all want to support those who are already on the way. That, that, again, momentum, right?
• 15:03
  Very, very important. That's why both are very important. Admitting that- Yeah... nobody's coming to save us so that we started to do things ourself, and then
• 15:12
  we see that, yeah, the more we travel, the more we see that everybo- so many people are also just rooting for us, and that's something that I'm really deeply more internalized these days.
• 15:21
  I wanna spend some more time on this idea of a spoiled career, a spoiled work life. Because- [laughs]... A, I recognize that. I also- Right, right... feel like I, I've been completely spoiled.
• 15:34
  I'm so spoiled to get to do this work. And so I'm wondering if we could spend some time, like, unpacking maybe for both of us- Yeah... what are the elements that go into creating this spoiled career?
• 15:48
  Because I think someone listening to it, listening to us speak might be like, "I would like that. Like, how do- Yeah... how do I get whatever they're drinking?" You know?
• 15:57
  [laughs] Um, so I, I don't know how much you have really, like, thought about, like, the breaking down of it, but is it, is there anything that comes to mind when you think of the elements that go into ultimately having a career that makes you feel spoiled?
• 16:12
  I, I do want... I would, I love to answer that. Thank you for, for pinpointing.
• 16:16
  And I will zoom out a little bit to say that the interesting question is, how come we, as in you and I, live in the world where we feel that way about work, right?
• 16:26
  Like, since when did the world become where the thing we are doing is called spoiled? Like, we feel spoiled.
• 16:32
  Like, so that [laughs] it's just how we can say how messed up or there's something deeply wrong about the world that we feel spoiled about it, right?
• 16:39
  So to, just to name that sentiment first, that there is something about the way the, the co- so-called Charles Einstein called it the old story has been set up.
• 16:48
  So I think deeply people like us are, I would say, a eternal optimist in a, in a way of like we are not gonna give up what we know is possible because we tested it. It's not like, you know, it's not like I did not...
• 17:03
  I just dream about one day I have a working job and none of that. No, no, no. I have tested as a young teenager what good feels like in terms of working together. It's not easy.
• 17:13
  It's emotionally very challenging to confront people and, and so on, but it's so engaging, like wholehearted, and I have a taste of heaven. How can I pretend that I don't forget it, right? So [laughs]
• 17:27
  Oh, a taste of heaven. Exactly. So you, you know what's possible, so you can't go back. It's like a one-way door. Exactly. It's like you could see that work- Exactly... can be this way.
• 17:36
  When you were speaking, I was just, I just jotted down a few words that came up for me when I think of, okay, spoiled career. I, I resonate with this, so, so what are, what is that?
• 17:47
  And the words I wrote down was luck, in that- Yeah... I've always felt like I'm a really lucky person. Like, I'm like, "Oh-" Yeah. "... I'm so, I am so lucky."
• 17:58
  In fact, one of my friends at my wedding was talking about this concept of Milie Luck, and I think it's just 'cause we, we, we put it out in the universe. It's like, it...
• 18:07
  She was like, "Oh, you're just someone that the, the luck seems to happen to." And I think because, A, I, I believe that's true. I think I am. I'm so freaking lucky.
• 18:17
  Like, on a, on a, on a macro level to be born in 1991 in New Zealand, like- To, okay, parents have some issues, but, you know, j- I, I made it through, you know, relatively [laughs] ve- very lucky.
• 18:32
  So luck, um, relationships was the second word, where so much of my career is just these like, this mycelium network of, like, relationship and, and building trust, like really, really deep trust with people.
• 18:49
  The third is values, which I think you just touched on there, where it's like, okay, what do I really, what do I really value here? If I don't value it, I'm actually probably not gonna be able to work on it. I'm just...
• 19:01
  It's gonna kill my soul. And so that means saying no to some things, right? I'm like, okay, I could probably go make more money somewhere else, but I'm not gonna have the same, like, value.
• 19:14
  And the last one I wrote is audacity. I'm a bit audacious. I think you're a bit audacious as well, where we see something...
• 19:23
  I mean, you just approach this guy and you're like, "We're gonna go do the hackathon this weekend. I'm gonna go get a team, and guess what? We're gonna win. We're gonna win."
• 19:32
  [laughs] You literally were like- Yeah, yeah, yeah... [laughs] "We're going to win." I think sometime we have to act fast so that we don't have time to worry about it, you know? It's like [laughs] just- Mm.
• 19:41
  Act, act fast so we don't have time to worry about, so that our, quote-unquote, "rational mind" jump back. I, I love what you said. It's, uh, it's audacity. I do kind of...
• 19:52
  The way I frame it to myself these days is that I have no choice. Like, you either be alive or you're dead. It really feels like that, and, uh, this is a lesson that I'm still integrating. I did one of...
• 20:03
  So sidetrack, I did one of the, um, psychedelic ceremony with, with the medicine, and one of the experience that I got w- was the peyote, I wrote about that, is one of the experience I saw in my psychedelic experience was the, the jaguar, which is the spirit animal of the tribe, and I really saw it with my felt experience.
• 20:23
  And, and it's very clear to me that the jaguar, the message of the jaguar...
• 20:28
  By the way, the jaguar is the guardian of the, the, the shaman, and, and the shaman in the, in the language, the shaman is def- is, the definition of shaman is someone who dreams but stay awake during the dream. Mm.
• 20:41
  So the, the guardian of the dreamer. Yeah. Well, the guardian of the dreamer who stay awake and take action on the dream. And, and, and so the jaguar, the message for the jaguar was so clear.
• 20:53
  It's like, it's like visceral. It's, "If you don't follow that path, I will bite your head off." [laughs] Yeah.
• 21:03
  [laughs] It's a really g- powerful, visceral experience for me bec- I still remind myself, often try to, sometime I forget, you know, but, like, it's very clear, "You are initiated now, my friend.
• 21:14
  This is your path, and if you do not follow that path, the jaguar will bite your head off."
• 21:19
  And so this is one of those, I, like, I would suspect myself that if I don't sleep well at night, that would mean that something is wrong, right? Then, you know, like, I would just imagine- Mm...
• 21:28
  that the jaguar is gonna bite my head off. And I think, go back to the, to the spoiled career piece, at some level, after enough experience, I think you just cannot not do it, right?
• 21:42
  And so if someone's listening and they, they've now got some of the elements of the, the spoiled career framework, we can call it, we've just coined a framework, h- how might you advise them to start taking steps toward that if they're like, "Yes, luck, relationships, audacity, values, and this jaguar of, like, we must do that"?
• 22:03
  Is there... But maybe they're in a job that they don't love, and maybe it's, it's really hard to leave, you know? They're paying the mortgage.
• 22:11
  Like, how might someone think about taking more steps toward that, that spoiled career? So number one thing, disclaimer, is that I think one of my main,
• 22:23
  my main contribution in the world is to be an example of what not to follow. [laughs] So, so [laughs] that's how I frame it. I, I'm an example of what not to follow, right? Do not, do, do not, do not follow what I do,
• 22:36
  but just know that I exist and I do my thing, therefore it's possible, right? Somebody like me can exist. Mm.
• 22:42
  I, I, I remind myself often that living a life itself, living an honest life itself already contribute to the world just by being example. And my, I, you know- Mm. That's it...
• 22:51
  I have a fair share of, of regret and mistake in my life. I do not... My, when people come to me for advice these day, I always tell, like, "Do not follow what I do." So- [laughs] Okay.... a little disclaimer.
• 23:00
  That's a disclaimer. Not financial advice. [laughs] Do not follow what I do. And, and, and I think it's a, it's an honest answer. Yeah, do not follow.
• 23:10
  So now that we, we put that disclaimer aside, I'll share, and then let me speak at the convincing at the brain, the rational level first, before the emotional level.
• 23:19
  And this is a wisdom from Peter Drucker, who is quoted the father of modern management. He always talks about second half of life, and he said that... It's a beautiful essay called Managing Oneself.
• 23:30
  He talk about second half of life, and the key point about second half of life is that you have to plan for it in your first half of life. And here's the logic, and he observe people over the years.
• 23:39
  The logic is the first half of life, which is your career, your achievement, whatever it is for you, achieving your stability, your s- security, all that.
• 23:47
  He said that, well, you have to plan for the second half of life during the first half of life because 100% for sure at some point you will hit a wall with your, with your achievements piece.
• 23:59
  At some point there would be some kind of- Mm... downfall. 100% will happen. Mm. So when that happens, where do you fall on your sense of achievement in the world on?
• 24:13
  You have to have a, a, a, something, you have to be doing that for a while, like second half of life, your, your side quest, whatever it is. I give you an example, personal example. I was in Vietnam before.
• 24:24
  I was teaching contact improvisation there. So I was known as a guy who teach that, and I did quite successfully, quite big, well-known in Vietnam, even though I don't spend as much, like, 20% of my time there.
• 24:34
  But I was known as that, that guy. And then when I-- So one of my, the major, what I call failure in my life, which the thing that regret for, is I drop out of PhD.
• 24:43
  When I drop out and I came back to Vietnam, I was not sure who am I anymore because, you know, like- Mm... to answering to the audience who are considering doing something more meaningful, right?
• 24:54
  One of the most painful experience is to go through the period where you let go of the professional identity of something you did, and you don't have anything new. Mm.
• 25:01
  And, and, and that's just like [slurps] the dark night of the soul, so cold, right? It's like, "Oh, yeah." It's very important to have something else before so that we can fall on it for a little bit.
• 25:13
  Like being a good partner, being good, uh, um, coach for the soccer league, the, the little league team. A- anything you do, have that- Mm... as a, as a backup identity is, is, is huge. Mm. And so- Mm...
• 25:27
  then for me, I fall back on the host and the, and the dance teacher identity for a little bit before I figure out what's next.
• 25:33
  And with that in mind, to answer the question of what advice you give to those who, who are considering, like, well, don't quit. Do-- Don't do anything, but start.
• 25:43
  If you can, on your free time, start building something where you can gain some sense of achievement, some sense of mattering in the world first, and really- Mm... build that.
• 25:53
  Like, it could be volunteering at the hospital, helping out with the, with the family for something, for many people, right? Like, really, you don't have to quit the job.
• 26:03
  You really want to start building something that give you a sense of satisfaction, something, some sense of mattering. If you cannot find that in your job, I assume, which you can, but start building that because
• 26:15
  identity diversification. Yeah. I lo- there's a, another podcast that I've recorded with one of our other members, Tyler Sellhorn. We can link it in the c- in the show notes.
• 26:27
  He calls it an identity stack, and it's exactly this. It's like having multiple identities, and the thing is, these identities just, for me, naturally emerge and change as I grow up and as my life changes.
• 26:44
  And like 10 years ago, I didn't have this identity of this, like, grubby person in the garden growing and then fermenting. Like, this is a new identity that's grown.
• 26:56
  But then there's been identities that have been a thread throughout my whole life, like, like reading. I'm just-- I love it. I love-- It's my love language is, is words and reading and writing. So, you know?
• 27:09
  So there's these threads that keep me Millie, and I will probably love reading till the day I die. I'd be very surprised if that changed. But maybe I don't love fermenting and growing food forever. I don't know.
• 27:20
  But it's like this stack of identities, all which give me meaning. I-- That's why I also share in my coaching work with people considering quitting is, is, is, is-- Yeah, you know, people quit.
• 27:32
  You-- Different-- There's always a complex, uh, push and pull factor. There's always an element somewhere that I don't feel like I am mattering because- Mm... people are willing to do the difficult thing, you know?
• 27:45
  W- where people are not willing to do without a sense of mattering, and then finding that mattering. There's a book called Mattering by a new, uh, psychologist, uh, I can link it up, Zach.
• 27:56
  A phenomenal book, uh, on that topic, like find that mattering somewhere, somehow. And also, I would say
• 28:05
  the challenge, and go back to the spy career, you cannot matter if you don't see yourself in relationship with other living beings.
• 28:13
  If you see yourself as an isolated being on this earth, then, yeah, good luck finding your mattering. Yeah. So, so again, it's a, it's a interconnected, uh, ecosystem of, of work, right?
• 28:23
  Like if you want to create a sense of mattering, you have to see yourself being in relationship with other people, meaning you have to see yourself being affected by other people, being influenced.
• 28:32
  That's not a straightforward journey for many people. A thousand percent agree, which will come in no surprise to you.
• 28:39
  We are all interconnected, and the deeper I, uh, go into realizing my relationship to human and non-human things, the more connected and fulfilled I feel. I don't think that's coincidence.
• 28:53
  This has been such a, a rich, rich conversation. Um, is there anything that I-- Wow, that rain is really-- Is that the rain? Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh, it's massive. Yeah. Storm, storm rain. Wow. Okay. There you go.
• 29:08
  We're getting it. We're getting it. [laughs] That is a downpour. Um, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really wish you had a chance to speak about?
• 29:19
  So something that surprised me from this conversation is that I w- I was imagining it would go a bit more into the reinvention and how could generalists find themselves doing different job and to do how do you, how do you so-called position yourself.
• 29:35
  So what was surprising for me that we w- we went on the mattering side a little bit more. Mm-hmm. So I do say that the thing that I want, I wanted to talk about is something that I'm learning now, right?
• 29:48
  And I think you are so-called a bit further in that journey, is that having the alignment is, is, is very important. It's a first step, right? There's a poem by David Whyte called "Start Close In."
• 30:01
  Start close in, start with the first thing close in. Don't start with the second or the third step. Start with the first thing close in. Like, like- Mm... start that. Close in the alignment.
• 30:13
  And I see the trap that I went through, and many people did after this process of re- realigning, is that you stay in the aligning too long. Sure. I mean, by ourselves, I'm fine, right?
• 30:25
  But, but to really ag- again re-engage with the, with, with the world, with people, of course, the relationship could change. But re-engage and find ways to, to, to matter, to be an impact.
• 30:36
  My, uh, rules of thumbs or my litmus test whether I have made a difference in a place is people would miss me when I'm gone. And, and I used to feel a little bit too egoistical about, about that line.
• 30:49
  And now I know they just, if you give a shit, if you want to- Yeah... matters in the world, then you have to accept the fact that you will be missed when you are gone because, because you matter.
• 30:59
  So for like, whatever feeling you have about that, do people miss you when you're gone? And I think that's a very important, uh, just guiding frame that I wanted to share. Do people miss you when you're gone? Amazing.
• 31:12
  Thank you for sharing, and thank you for sharing about everything today. I think this is gonna be a conversation... It's funny, I, I love that your ending was, like, the, the live reflection of the conversation.
• 31:24
  Because you never, I never know really where these conversations are gonna go.
• 31:27
  I kind of just follow the thread of what seems, what I'm what- basically what I'm most curious about in the moment, and that tends to bring out the richest conversation rather than having, like, a script of, like, this is where we'll go.
• 31:41
  So thank you for jamming with me and I can't wait to share this with the world. Yeah.
• 31:49
  I just wanted to share one thing that you just said about what you're most curious about because from our conversation, it sounds to me like, is, is that you carry this, a- and me too, right? You carry the tension of,
• 32:03
  quote, unquote, "living," uh, uh, having very deeply meaningful work in the world where that's not the norm, and you're carrying that not just for yourself, but also on behalf of the entire community of people who are- Mm-hmm...
• 32:16
  who, who believe that aligned work is possible and can make money and can live well. So I really honor you for carrying that tension, not just for yourself, but for everybody.
• 32:28
  I think that's why we end up in, in this thread of conversation. I appreciate that. Thanks, Nguyen.