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#057_STORY INSPIRE: Decisions that transforman with Jeremy_Corbell · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Two, one, boom. And we're live. First of all, cheers, gentlemen.
• 0:04
  Let's have a little toast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Relax.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Bob, thank you very much for doing this. I really
• 0:09
  appreciate it. I understand that you've told the story many,
• 0:13
  many times. You've been grilled many, many times. And it's
• 0:16
  very stressful for you. So I really, really appreciate your time.
• 0:19
  For people who don't know the story, there is a
• 0:22
  documentary called Jeremy Corbell has a documentary out right now.
• 0:27
  It's called Bob Lazar, Area 51 and UFOs.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: And Flying Saucers.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: And Flying Saucers.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I first heard your story decades ago. I told you
• 0:40
  last night when we went out to dinner. I've seen
• 0:42
  pretty much every interview you've ever given. I've followed the
• 0:45
  story incredibly closely. But for people who don't know the story,
• 0:49
  let's give them the bullet points. You– Used to work
• 0:54
  at Area 51. And Area 51, you went like, huh?
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, we want to be accurate. Area S4.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: S4, okay.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: It's about 15 miles south of Area 51.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. You worked in, what would you, how would you
• 1:12
  describe it?
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: I guess within the Area 51 compound. You can call
• 1:17
  that a subset of Area 51.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: And you got that job. Before that, you were working.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Before that, I had worked at Los Alamos National Labs
• 1:27
  in New Mexico.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And you were involved in what kind of work?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Nuclear weapon development, physics. I mean, they do everything there.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: So how do they approach you to say, hey, Bob,
• 1:38
  why don't you come on out to the Nevada desert?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Well, the way this went down was at that time,
• 1:48
  it was 1982, I had put– a jet engine in my,
• 1:55
  my Honda and Los Alamos put it on the front
• 1:59
  page of the paper. I said, you know, uh, Los
• 2:03
  Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this
• 2:07
  200 mile an hour, you know, Honda jet car that
• 2:09
  I drove to work every day. So, uh, so I was,
• 2:13
  I was known in Los Alamos, the guy with the
• 2:15
  weird car and the, you know, you could hear it from,
• 2:17
  you know, a mile away anyway. The day that came
• 2:22
  out on the front page of the paper was the
• 2:25
  day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was
• 2:28
  giving a lecture down there at the lab. And we
• 2:32
  didn't have much going on that day in our group,
• 2:35
  and I asked if I could go down there. And
• 2:40
  I went down there early, and Ed Teller was outside,
• 2:44
  leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front
• 2:47
  page of the paper. Now, this is a guy out
• 2:49
  of history, so I introduced myself. Hey, I'm the guy
• 2:51
  you're reading about there, and we talked for a little while,
• 2:54
  and it was cool. You know, fast forward to years later,
• 2:57
  I had moved out to Las Vegas and had, you know,
• 3:00
  left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things,
• 3:04
  and I wanted to get back into the scientific community.
• 3:06
  You know, I left to start other businesses and that
• 3:10
  sort of thing. So I sent resumes out, and one
• 3:13
  of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting,
• 3:17
  you know, back in the day. And anyway, he remembered me.
• 3:22
  and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG
• 3:25
  & G. And that's pretty much how it started.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: So you get a phone call or a letter? Like,
• 3:33
  what do you get?
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I got a... What did I get? I got
• 3:39
  a letter initially and went down for an interview probably
• 3:44
  a couple times. And it was down at EG &
• 3:45
  G Special Projects, which was... At McCarran Airport at that
• 3:50
  time in Las Vegas.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: And did they give you any sort of job description
• 3:54
  of what you were applying for?
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: They said it was for– I can't remember exactly what
• 4:00
  they did. This was a long time ago. But I
• 4:03
  think it was advanced propulsion or something like that, something
• 4:07
  relatively generic. And they said it's in a remote area.
• 4:12
  It's going to be some days on, some days off.
• 4:15
  And it was kind of a– It was kind of
• 4:20
  not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to
• 4:22
  be out there for two weeks at a time and
• 4:25
  take two weeks off. So it was kind of a–
• 4:28
  the work schedule would be kind of broken up.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And did this seem attractive to you or did it
• 4:32
  seem weird?
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at
• 4:36
  the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there,
• 4:40
  working at the nuclear test site or at the Tonopah
• 4:44
  test range north of there, that's typically how things go.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: So you had known about it from the scientific community?
• 4:51
  Because Area 51 at that time was still classified.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: No, they didn't say anything about Area 51.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: They just said it was in a remote location and
• 4:59
  you just know it was up at the test site.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: But there was no mention of Area 51 at that time.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: So they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in Nevada. Nevada,
• 5:08
  that whole area, there's giant chunks of Nevada.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: That people– Big piece of Nevada, and it's split up
• 5:15
  into different areas. There's a nuclear test site. There's Area 51.
• 5:19
  There's the Tonopah Test Range north of that. There's little sub-areas.
• 5:22
  There's areas where they test chemical weapons and things like that.
• 5:25
  So it's all broken up as a gigantic test area.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: So take me back to first day on the job.
• 5:32
  You accept the job. They take you out there. Yeah.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: It's... The first day, really, I didn't really get to
• 5:41
  see a whole lot. The first day was essentially just paperwork.
• 5:44
  That's when I flew into Area 51 proper. And I
• 5:48
  left McCarran Airport and flew what they call the Janet flights. Just,
• 5:54
  you know, a passenger plane from Las Vegas to Area 51.
• 5:59
  And it was really just going through a mountain of
• 6:03
  paperwork that day. From security clearances to.
• 6:08
  God, it was like two or three hours of just
• 6:11
  solid paperwork. And that was really an uneventful first day.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: When did things get weird? When did you realize? At
• 6:23
  what point in time did you say, hey, this is
• 6:26
  not normal work? Like this doesn't even seem like it's
• 6:30
  from this planet.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: I can't tell you what day that occurred on because
• 6:35
  so much time has gone by. The days have kind of.
• 6:38
  fused into one and I can't separate the days.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Was it a slow burn or was there a moment
• 6:43
  of recognition?
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: Well, the first inkling I had was when I came in.
• 6:51
  There's this facility that is at S4. It's in the
• 6:54
  side of a mountain. And normally we had pulled in
• 6:59
  with the bus and gone around the front through a
• 7:02
  normal double door. This time that I went in, there
• 7:06
  were hangar doors open. I went into the hangar door,
• 7:09
  and in the hangar door was the disc, the flying
• 7:12
  saucer that I worked on. I saw it sitting there,
• 7:16
  and we walked by it. It had a little American
• 7:18
  flag stuck on the side, and I thought, oh, my God,
• 7:21
  this finally explains all the flying saucer stories. This is
• 7:23
  just an advanced fighter, and this is fucking hilarious. So
• 7:29
  I went by. I slid my hand alongside it. I
• 7:31
  got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing. And there was
• 7:35
  a guy, an armed guard, that followed us in and
• 7:36
  just said, keep your eyes forward and your hands at
• 7:39
  your side and just walk in the door. So that
• 7:42
  was the first time I had seen anything that was weird.
• 7:47
  It was some time later that I was introduced to
• 7:51
  my lab partner, Barry. And we had some of the
• 7:55
  subcomponents of the craft in the lab. And Barry was
• 8:00
  very anxious to get a new lab partner, so he
• 8:02
  was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things.
• 8:05
  And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working
• 8:09
  where it caught my attention to where this is technology
• 8:14
  that doesn't even exist. So, I mean, that was the
• 8:18
  first time I knew that this is really something different.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: What was it? What was it? What was it about
• 8:27
  this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist technologically?
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I actually have to back up because there were
• 8:36
  some briefings that I read before that that certainly gave
• 8:41
  me the impression that this was going to be a
• 8:44
  weird job. But this was the first hands-on thing. This
• 8:47
  was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere,
• 8:50
  about the size of a basketball on a metal plate.
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  And when it was running, it produced a gravitational field,
• 8:57
  a gravitational field of its own. Now, this is something
• 9:00
  that we can't do. We can't produce any gravity. The
• 9:03
  only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass.
• 9:07
  But there's no machine we can have that turns on
• 9:09
  that makes gravity. Like, you know, you can turn on
• 9:12
  an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field. We can't
• 9:15
  make a gravitational field. Anyway, this device was producing that.
• 9:19
  And Barry said, Almost like he was bragging, go ahead,
• 9:23
  try and touch the sphere. And I couldn't. It pushed
• 9:27
  my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: So that was– So like when you take two magnets
• 9:32
  and you're trying to press them.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Together and they push against each other? Yeah, kind of
• 9:35
  cushion feeling. But you can't get them together. The closer
• 9:38
  you put them, the more they push.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: And you felt that physically with your hand?
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: With my hand. Yeah. Now there's nothing that does that.
• 9:44
  And that immediately caught my attention going, wow, this is
• 9:48
  something else.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: What was your thought? Like when you felt that and
• 9:51
  you knew that there was nothing that you were aware
• 9:54
  of that could produce this.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: Then that connected me to the briefings that I read
• 9:59
  on the first day at S4 was that, you know,
• 10:03
  everything that I had read was apparently accurate.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: What were you reading?
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: I read, it was kind of an overview. This project
• 10:12
  was to back engineer the alien craft and specifically it
• 10:18
  was to try and back-engineer, and see if we can
• 10:21
  duplicate the technology with available materials. Now, to do this,
• 10:27
  they split the project into many different pieces for several reasons.
• 10:32
  They do this on all classified projects, so nobody has
• 10:36
  the complete story, but they compartmentalize everything. Now, we had
• 10:40
  the power and propulsion system. So what briefings they gave
• 10:44
  me were like a one- or two-page overview of some
• 10:46
  of the other projects that were going on. you know,
• 10:49
  on the craft. The only reason they do that is
• 10:52
  just in case what you're working on is connected intimately
• 10:55
  in some way that we don't know of to one
• 10:57
  of the other projects, you have to know their, excuse me,
• 10:59
  their existence. So, you know, I, again, everything from metallurgy to,
• 11:09
  you know, weapon potential of the craft and these were all,
• 11:12
  you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just
• 11:16
  power and propulsion and, it made it very clear that
• 11:20
  what I read was accurate.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: So when you're reading that, before you actually saw the reactor,
• 11:28
  what were your thoughts on what they were describing? If
• 11:32
  you knew that something like that didn't exist, and they're
• 11:36
  describing it in the briefings, what did you think you
• 11:38
  were going to see?
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I really, I didn't know at the time. I mean,
• 11:42
  I was reading, I thought, is this some kind of test?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: See if you're crazy?
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Well, not to see if I'm crazy to, you know,
• 11:50
  a lot of times they'll take in real high security jobs.
• 11:55
  I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them, whether it's
• 12:00
  to confuse the fact or if for someone was to
• 12:02
  leak it out, they would carry that information along and
• 12:05
  know where it came from. So I read through the documents, but,
• 12:10
  you know, I didn't know if this was, you know,
• 12:12
  part of some kind of test or not. Or what?
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  Or was it potentially realistic? I mean, I really didn't
• 12:20
  consider it being all that possible as far as being
• 12:25
  the actual thing that I was going to work on
• 12:27
  at the time.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: How did they turn it on?
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: The reactor?
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: The reactor can be turned on or turned off in
• 12:34
  a lot of different ways. The way Barry showed me,
• 12:38
  the hemisphere is removed. There's a small tower in the middle.
• 12:42
  When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates. the
• 12:45
  reactor shuts down, it's load sensing. So if there's no
• 12:51
  load on the reactor at all, it shuts down. When
• 12:53
  there's a load present on it, it starts up again.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Load meaning?
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: You can consider it an electrical load. So although it
• 13:03
  doesn't necessarily operate electrically, there's no wiring that connects any
• 13:09
  of the subcomponents together whatsoever. They just have to be
• 13:11
  in the immediate vicinity. It's... The stuff is borderline magic,
• 13:18
  and that's essentially where we left it when I left
• 13:21
  the project.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: So there was no progress made?
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: There was some progress. I mean, we did identify, at
• 13:28
  least we think, some processes and had a rough idea,
• 13:32
  we think, of what was going on. But I think
• 13:35
  this is a problem that they've had for a long time.
• 13:41
  I was replacing somebody. That Barry worked with prior to me.
• 13:45
  And I think there was some horrific accident that I
• 13:48
  didn't have a whole lot of information on. But, you know,
• 13:51
  Barry alluded to that.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: A horrific accident like where someone died?
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, where somebody died.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Because they were trying to tamper with things or figure
• 13:59
  out how something worked?
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the reactor in particular.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: But yet he let you touch it.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what they were trying to do was
• 14:08
  cut into one. Now, they had more than one there. Supposedly,
• 14:13
  there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was.
• 14:17
  At the time, remember, they were still doing underground nuclear
• 14:20
  tests at the test site. But from what I understand,
• 14:24
  according to Barry, there was an attempt made. Now, this
• 14:26
  must have been a pretty desperate attempt because it's not
• 14:29
  a very scientific process to analyze something that way. But
• 14:34
  it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something
• 14:36
  like that to cut into an operating reactor.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: How many of these things did they have?
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: They had nine craft altogether. I only got hands-on with
• 14:45
  one of them, so I can't really say how the
• 14:49
  others operated.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Did you see the other ones? Yeah.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: At one time, and only one time, the bay doors
• 14:54
  between the hangars were all open, and I could see
• 14:57
  all the way through.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: And were they all exactly the same?
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: No, they were all different.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Different shapes? Yeah. But they were all from somewhere else?
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Now, did anyone make any attempt to explain or to
• 15:15
  tell you where they came from? No, no.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: No one is the least bit interested in letting everybody
• 15:20
  know all the facts. They want to give you the
• 15:23
  minimum information that's necessary to complete your task. So you're
• 15:27
  not getting the story of where they came from. You're
• 15:30
  not getting the story of how much progress other people
• 15:33
  are making. You just focus on the small components.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: But they gave you some indication that they've been working
• 15:38
  on these for a while? Yeah. When do you think
• 15:41
  they acquired these?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I really couldn't say. I think they've been around for
• 15:48
  a while.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So they bring you into this room. You see this
• 15:55
  reactor working. You realize this is nothing that as far
• 15:59
  as like the scientific community at current time has the
• 16:03
  ability to create.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: We still don't.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: What is your life like from that moment on? Is
• 16:08
  that where everything changes? I would imagine the moment you
• 16:13
  actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an
• 16:17
  object or a being, something where you can absolutely be
• 16:20
  certain it's not from here, your whole paradigm, the whole
• 16:25
  world you live in is now a different place.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Well, this is the only time it became exciting. The
• 16:31
  rest of the time, it was really an ominous feeling.
• 16:36
  being at work. But at that time, it was exciting.
• 16:39
  I mean, this was, now I knew we were on
• 16:42
  the absolute, actually beyond the cutting edge of science. And
• 16:47
  I was so absolutely excited to be there every single
• 16:50
  time I was. You know, this was a fantastic opportunity.
• 16:55
  And however, in short order, it began to concern me
• 17:04
  we really have no idea what we're talking about. And
• 17:09
  the excitement kind of turned to dread at some point,
• 17:14
  because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.
• 17:19
  I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like
• 17:22
  this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power. And I've
• 17:27
  given the example before of, you know, taking a small
• 17:32
  portable nuclear reactor and you know, putting it back into
• 17:35
  Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time,
• 17:38
  and just dropping it in a room. And they come
• 17:41
  and look at it and see that it's producing power
• 17:44
  and wonder how it works. So they start taking it apart.
• 17:47
  And as soon as they get some of the shielding off,
• 17:50
  the people are going to drop dead because of the
• 17:52
  radiation inside. Now, people have no idea that radiation even
• 17:57
  exists back then. But anybody that comes in to check
• 18:00
  on them will also drop dead. And, you know, There's
• 18:05
  no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what
• 18:08
  we're dealing with. We have no idea how the physics
• 18:12
  operate within this thing. The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.
• 18:17
  It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that. And,
• 18:21
  you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs. Just
• 18:24
  try to find out how to make this thing.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So they had a series as far as you're concerned.
• 18:30
  They had a series of different scientists try to back-engineer
• 18:33
  this thing, try to figure out what this thing was,
• 18:35
  and they would bring in new people and like, let's
• 18:37
  throw Bob at it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I don't know how many, but I knew
• 18:41
  there was certainly one before me, and I knew he
• 18:44
  died during the analysis of the reactor itself.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: And you don't know how many have worked on it,
• 18:53
  and no one gave any indication.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: This could have been there for... 50 years, it could
• 18:58
  have been there for five years.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: When they're giving you instructions, what are they saying? When
• 19:02
  they're giving you direction, they're showing you all this stuff,
• 19:04
  what are they saying? Specifically, what are they asking of you?
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Well, essentially what they ask is what I said. We
• 19:11
  are just to gather as much information as possible, find
• 19:14
  out how it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: But they never told you where it was from? They
• 19:19
  never let you ask questions about where it's from? Well, if.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: The information I read in the briefings was accurate. Now,
• 19:28
  what I do have to say is the information that
• 19:30
  pertained directly to the reactor was accurate. What I read
• 19:37
  did jive with reality.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: In terms of how?
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: In terms of how it was made, what we saw,
• 19:45
  how it operated, the materials, how it turned on and whatnot.
• 19:50
  was discovered about it. I'm sorry. The migraine is really
• 19:55
  making it hard for me to think here.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Sorry. We talked that before the podcast. You tell everybody
• 20:00
  Bob was getting a migraine. I know you're very stressed
• 20:02
  out by this, which is one of the reasons why
• 20:03
  I appreciate you doing this.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Where was I already?
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: We were talking about the way you explained it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: And so there was some paperwork that indicated that this
• 20:16
  was from the Zeta Reticuli star system. Now, yeah. Now,
• 20:22
  how they obtained that, I haven't the slightest idea. But
• 20:26
  it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli star system. It
• 20:29
  was what they called ZR3. So it was a third
• 20:32
  planet in that star system. So there was no other
• 20:36
  information about it other than, That's supposedly where the craft
• 20:40
  came from. Now, is that true?
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: I have no way of verifying that. But that was
• 20:43
  printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor. Now,
• 20:47
  I looked that stuff up when I went home. And
• 20:51
  Zeta Reticuli is a binary star, two stars that orbit
• 20:56
  one another. And it's only visible in the southern hemisphere,
• 20:58
  and it's about 30 some odd light years away. So
• 21:01
  that's literally all the information I have about that. I
• 21:04
  don't know how they found out it came from there.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: And you also probably have some suspicions that they give
• 21:10
  you some disinformation like you were talking about before. Yeah.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I mean if you ever decided to talk about this,
• 21:17
  they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is
• 21:19
  factual look ridiculous. Right.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Or be able to trace it down like, hey, this
• 21:24
  fax came out and this Lazar guy said it came
• 21:28
  from Zeta Reticuli. So they knew it was.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: When you read Zeta Reticuli, were you like, what in
• 21:33
  the fuck is this?
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Well– Reading all of the stuff, it was, what in
• 21:37
  the fuck is this?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: You're like, why did I sign up for this?
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: No, no.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: To me, this was cool. This was interesting. I said,
• 21:44
  I was just excited to be out in a secure area,
• 21:46
  you know, in the middle of the desert.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I said, this is awesome. How old were you at
• 21:49
  the time?
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I was in my 20s.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're probably like. Totally geeked out.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. This was great. I mean, I was excited.
• 22:00
  So I didn't care. I'm reading through everything.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: So you read through all the Zeta Reticuli thing, but
• 22:04
  then when you see the actual starship with the little
• 22:06
  American flag sticker on it.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Well, that was.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Was that later or before?
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: That was before.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: So before. So you see the thing before and you say, oh,
• 22:18
  this is American.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: Wait, what's that before?
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Hard.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: So many years.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Either way. It doesn't matter.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: The days have fused together. It's so hard to separate
• 22:27
  what happened in each visit to the place.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the thought process when you read that
• 22:30
  it's from Zeta Reticuli?
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It didn't hit me like a ton of bricks
• 22:35
  or anything. It was just like, yeah, okay.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: You think it was bullshit? I don't know.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Now I don't. I mean, because when I read it,
• 22:43
  I hadn't verified anything. And this was just a bunch
• 22:46
  of stuff I was reading. And I thought maybe after this,
• 22:48
  they're just going to give me a test and see
• 22:50
  what I can remember in crazy information. But like I said,
• 22:56
  when I finally went in with Barry and had hands-on
• 23:03
  experience with what they were talking about, it took on
• 23:06
  a completely different meaning.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: So there's a plate. There's this thing that looks like
• 23:10
  half a basketball. And when it's on, you can't come
• 23:13
  anywhere near it. You can't touch it. Right. How is–
• 23:16
  what is gravity about that? Like the concept of gravity
• 23:20
  to most people is gravity is bringing something towards it.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Right. Well, I guess you would say it's anti-gravity. It's
• 23:25
  gravity shifted 180 degrees. It's anti-gravity.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: And did they have any understanding about what could possibly
• 23:36
  create this effect? Did they have any areas where they'd
• 23:40
  like you to look into?
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: No, they.
• 23:46
  Well, they knew there was a fuel source in it,
• 23:50
  and they were proficient at making it work. And again,
• 23:54
  my analogy to something like this is you can drop
• 23:57
  a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just
• 23:59
  leave it with the keys parked outside somebody's place. Everybody
• 24:03
  will come around it, and they'll poke and prod, and eventually...
• 24:06
  They'll turn the key, get it to start and become
• 24:09
  proficient at writing it. Yeah. But they won't be able
• 24:12
  to understand what the hell's going on. They won't be
• 24:15
  able to make the plastic fender much less anything else.
• 24:19
  And I think that's exactly the state we were at.
• 24:21
  We played around with the parts long enough before I
• 24:23
  got there where they could make the reactor operate, um,
• 24:28
  take the fuel out and know that it makes it work. Um,
• 24:32
  how exactly what was going on, uh, in the reactor.
• 24:36
  It remained a mystery at the time. I think we
• 24:40
  made some progress on what was going on inside, but
• 24:45
  I don't think anybody really knew anything. They could just
• 24:48
  watch what was going on and make note of it.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: How long were you there?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: I'd say about six months or so.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And what progress was made while you were there?
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably good
• 25:02
  ideas about how the reactor worked. And one of them
• 25:06
  was the base, the square base of it was essentially
• 25:09
  like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator, a
• 25:13
  circular one. Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators are just a,
• 25:17
  you know, long tube essentially, and they accelerate particles with
• 25:21
  high voltage and, you know, radio frequencies till they reach
• 25:24
  high speeds. But a cyclotron does that in a small
• 25:27
  circular area. And there's this Very heavy element fuel, element 115,
• 25:34
  something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: But it is now.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: It is now, yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: When did it become on the periodic table now, the
• 25:42
  way the charts now?
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't remember. Do you remember when they?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: 2004, Dermstadt, Germany, I think is where they first fabricated
• 25:50
  four atoms. It lasted 220 milliseconds with the atoms. It's nothing, right?
• 25:55
  And then it later was discovered a couple more times
• 25:57
  they could fabricate it. Then they gave it a place
• 26:00
  then on the periodic chart. After that, called it Muscovian.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: So they told you about this stuff in 1982? Yeah.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Well, we kind of– Not 1982.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: What year was this?
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: It was 88 and 89 when I was there. 82
• 26:16
  is when I was at Los Alamos.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah. So 88, 89, they told you about
• 26:22
  this stuff.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: So this was not like– No, they didn't tell me
• 26:24
  about it. That's one of the things that this group
• 26:27
  came up with. The– I keep losing my train of
• 26:33
  thought with this thing.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: So this one area, this element 115 was the fuel.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the fuel.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: The world will forgive you for having a migraine.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: It's really hard to think through this. Just give me
• 26:56
  a minute.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: We'll just give you more boost. Yeah, definitely.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I was going to say one thing. For the last
• 27:01
  30 years, people have just been on the attack on Bob,
• 27:05
  getting to know him, the personal effects on his life.
• 27:07
  It's really hard to understand unless you meet his family
• 27:10
  and his wife. I mean this is the last thing
• 27:13
  he wanted to fucking do was have to talk.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should explain that, Jeremy, that you and I
• 27:17
  had this conversation. I watched your documentary. We had this
• 27:21
  conversation and I said I have to talk to him.
• 27:24
  The document– there's been detractors– There's been a bunch of
• 27:28
  people that called bullshit on many of the things that
• 27:30
  you've said. But over time, many of the things that
• 27:34
  you talked about even in the 80s have proven to
• 27:37
  be true. Things that people said were not true were
• 27:40
  proven to be true. Element 115 was one of them, right? Right, right.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Element 115, the fuel they had was stable. In other words,
• 27:50
  it didn't decay. It wasn't emitting radioactivity. When they synthesized
• 27:56
  two or three atoms– of the 115, uh, it did
• 27:59
  decay and it was not a stable element. So they're,
• 28:03
  they're kind of two different things, but this is kind
• 28:05
  of typical elements always have, or pretty much always have, uh,
• 28:10
  stable isotopes and unstable isotopes. Like I think cesium has
• 28:14
  like 30 unstable isotopes to it. So, all right, well, hydrogen,
• 28:18
  for example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas. Um, it's stable.
• 28:23
  It's not radioactive, but there's also two other types of hydrogen. Uh,
• 28:28
  deuterium and tritium. And deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another stable
• 28:33
  isotope of hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive. Now they're all hydrogen,
• 28:37
  but they just have different amounts of neutrons. So it's
• 28:41
  the same thing with other elements and element 115. Depending
• 28:45
  on the amount of neutrons it has, designates the isotope,
• 28:50
  but it's 115. They will continue to take or experiment
• 28:56
  and try and make So they somehow or another had
• 28:59
  acquired a stable version. Did they say that the stable
• 29:01
  version had come with this craft? Yeah, it absolutely came
• 29:03
  with the craft, yeah.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of
• 29:18
  the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what
• 29:21
  wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable
• 29:24
  element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Well, everything was impossible.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, down to the metal, I did get a
• 29:32
  chance to look inside the craft on only one occasion.
• 29:37
  And this was important because... where the reactor sat might
• 29:42
  have been critical to how it operated since everything operates
• 29:46
  without any interconnection. So the placement of components might be critical.
• 29:51
  So they allowed me to go inside and look at it. Again,
• 29:56
  I forgot where the hell I am.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: So you're going into this craft. And what are you
• 30:01
  thinking when you're inside of it? Like, what are you seeing?
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: It's a very ominous feeling because it's, there are no,
• 30:10
  first of all, everything is one color. It's like a
• 30:13
  dark pewter color. And there are no right angles anywhere.
• 30:18
  It's as if somebody took, I've said this before, somebody
• 30:21
  took a model out of And fashioned it out of
• 30:25
  wax and then heated it just for a short time
• 30:27
  so everything melted. Everything looks like it's fused together. Everything
• 30:31
  has a radius of curvature where two items meet. It's
• 30:36
  a really weird looking thing. But there was almost nothing
• 30:44
  other than a small foldable hatchway that looked recognizable. Everything
• 30:51
  was really unworldly. To pick on it. A way to
• 30:55
  describe it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: So you get inside this thing, and it's designed for
• 31:00
  something that's much smaller than a human being.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't really stand up until you get to
• 31:04
  the very center of it.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And how tall are you? I'm 5'10. And what do
• 31:08
  you think this was designed for?
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: I'd say something close to half my height.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Wow. So these little three-foot tall-ish creatures.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the seats were small, too. I mean, obviously
• 31:20
  it was made for something, something small. But there's nothing
• 31:27
  else in there. There's just seats, the reactor, and some
• 31:30
  of the subcomponents. There's no control panels. There's no bathroom.
• 31:34
  There's no decorative components or artwork or anything that you
• 31:39
  would recognize or trim. I mean, it's just a very
• 31:42
  bare-bones thing.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: You're not seeing any screens?
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Well, there are archways around it that are part of
• 31:50
  the superstructure and– that one of the archways can become transparent.
• 31:56
  When I was in there, there was another group working
• 31:59
  on one of the archways, and you could call that
• 32:03
  a screen, more or less.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: So through that archway, it would maintain the solidity, the
• 32:10
  solid whatever metal it was? Yeah. But you could see
• 32:14
  through it?
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it just became transparent, yeah. I saw that happen
• 32:17
  once or twice before I left.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Did you ask any questions about what the fuck that was?
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: No, there's no asking questions.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: There's no asking questions.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: No.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But when you watch something become transparent and you realize
• 32:27
  it's still there but you can now see through it.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, no, that's not that impressive. We do
• 32:32
  have some liquid crystal materials that are like that. I've
• 32:35
  seen that in bathrooms. Smart glass. Yeah, they call it
• 32:38
  smart glass. So this is just– and I don't know
• 32:41
  if the craft is made of– you know, an advanced
• 32:43
  metal or a ceramic. It was cold to the touch. So,
• 32:48
  you know, I would lean more towards a metal.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: You're not allowed to ask questions.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: No, the only, they work on the buddy system. So
• 32:55
  I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry. Now
• 32:59
  this really interferes with science because science is based on
• 33:03
  free discussion. And ideally you get a bunch of guys together,
• 33:06
  exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward.
• 33:10
  But they're so over the top concerned about security, they
• 33:14
  split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant. It just destroys
• 33:22
  any of the progress you can make or at least
• 33:24
  makes it go so slow. I think they wind up
• 33:28
  shooting themselves in the foot.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that
• 33:33
  they needed to get this madman with a jet-powered Honda.
• 33:37
  Come in and see what he could do.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I think that was an act of desperation. I think
• 33:40
  they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and
• 33:42
  let's just give this guy a try here because they
• 33:45
  weren't– and they might have done this four more times
• 33:49
  since up to the point in time today, assuming they're
• 33:52
  still working on this thing.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And when you see this craft and you're inside, was
• 33:58
  there any indication that there was an area that they
• 34:02
  would use to control it, to pilot it? Was there
• 34:04
  a pilot seat?
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: There were three seats. They sat around– the reactor was
• 34:10
  in the dead center of it. And then equidistant around
• 34:14
  there were three seats. And that's all. There was a
• 34:19
  large– they're not consoles. They're large rectangular objects also spaced
• 34:25
  equidistant around the center. There's nothing on them. There's no buttons.
• 34:29
  There's no lights.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: There's no controls. And they look the same color, the
• 34:31
  same thing.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: Everything is the same color.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: It's just a different shape. Right.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: And– directly underneath them. There's three levels in the craft.
• 34:40
  The main level is what we're talking about. Directly under that,
• 34:44
  those are the gravity amplifiers, the big rectangular objects. Underneath
• 34:48
  them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack
• 34:51
  of a better word, a trash can hanging on a pipe.
• 34:54
  Three of those. And then the top layer, this is
• 34:58
  just my personal belief, I think that has to do
• 35:01
  with a navigation or their version of a computer with
• 35:06
  some planar panels, sensor panels around the craft that we
• 35:10
  would call portholes, but they're not portholes. They're just black areas.
• 35:14
  And I think that just determines its, you know, position
• 35:17
  in space. But I was, I physically was in the
• 35:21
  center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom
• 35:25
  section and hung upside down so I could see how
• 35:27
  the gravity amplifiers were positioned.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: What is the roughly the size of this thing?
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: It's a, I think it, I don't remember from being there,
• 35:36
  but after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews,
• 35:41
  a guy from the Testers Model Corporation. And, you know,
• 35:43
  we sat down and tried to figure out from what
• 35:47
  I saw and known sizes of things. And we came
• 35:51
  up with 52 feet in diameter. So it's fairly small.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: So I think that's a fair estimate. A reasonable guess.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Now, you said there's nine of them, and you got
• 36:01
  a brief glimpse at the other ones. How are they different?
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Oh, they looked completely different. One looked like I called
• 36:09
  a jello mold, and it looked like a classic jello
• 36:12
  mold with the rippled sides to it. One was a
• 36:14
  very flat disc, you know, like a straw hat or
• 36:21
  something like that. That was sitting up on its edge,
• 36:24
  and the thin part of it, It looked like a
• 36:27
  projectile had been fired through the edge of it. So
• 36:31
  I don't know if they were attempting to see if
• 36:34
  the metal could be penetrated or if that's where the
• 36:38
  thing came from. Maybe it was shot down. But that
• 36:42
  was the only one where I saw there was actual
• 36:44
  physical damage to it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: And that one was roughly the same size?
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: They were kind of too far away to tell.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: And did... There were several teams that were working on
• 36:56
  the propulsion system. So there were different teams that were
• 36:59
  working on these different aircrafts?
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: You don't know.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: I could only assume.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking
• 37:09
  at this otherworldly craft, your goal is to try to
• 37:14
  figure out how this thing functions. Your goal is to
• 37:17
  try to figure out how this reactor– I mean imagine
• 37:21
  they would give you more time than just one day
• 37:23
  to check that out.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Oh, it wasn't one day.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is, Barry was there. I think Barry
• 37:30
  was sleeping there. I'm sure they had. Now, that isn't weird.
• 37:34
  I mean, up at the Tonopah Test Range where they
• 37:36
  work on stealth fighters, you know, you go, I think,
• 37:40
  three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up
• 37:42
  there too. So it's not weird to stay up at
• 37:44
  the test site.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I think he pretty much, and he acted
• 37:48
  like he's been up there.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: For a long time. Yeah. But. He's still there. Yeah.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Who knows?
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Do you have contact with this guy? No.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, no. I wish I did. I kind of thought
• 37:59
  he was going to come out after I did.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: And I think I took so much flack and so
• 38:06
  much shit for what went on. I think actually I
• 38:10
  wound up helping security there and everybody became afraid of
• 38:14
  doing or saying anything after that.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: So what kind of reports did you have to give?
• 38:20
  So you're not making much progress, right? You're just trying
• 38:23
  to figure out what this thing is and it seems impossible.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: Well, we didn't personally make them. I mean we were
• 38:28
  always– there was never a lot of information that we gained.
• 38:34
  The guy– you would call him our supervisor. His name
• 38:37
  was Dennis Mariani and kind of a military-looking guy. And
• 38:42
  he would routinely pop in during the day. And, you know, hey,
• 38:47
  what's going on, guys? And he would essentially relay any information,
• 38:51
  anything new we came up with. I mean, he was
• 38:54
  our go-between, you know, where we presented him the information,
• 38:57
  and then he took it to wherever they were, you know,
• 39:00
  assembling all the data from everybody.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Now, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight-hour day?
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: No.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: No?
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: No, it was really weird that I would be only
• 39:10
  called in on certain times and certain days, and they
• 39:13
  would be weird hours, too. Most of the time was
• 39:16
  later in the evening. I mean, I can get a
• 39:18
  call at 11 o'clock at night and they'll say, you know,
• 39:20
  it's now 11 o'clock. By 1145, you need to be
• 39:26
  at the McCarran Terminal and, you know, we'll listen. you
• 39:30
  know when we have more information.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: But what did you do while you were there? If
• 39:35
  you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't
• 39:40
  figure out what it is or how it works, other
• 39:42
  than the fact that it works on this element that
• 39:44
  we don't even know about. Sure.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, the thing was that what you do in,
• 39:49
  you know.
• 39:50
  With anything. If you're trying to analyze it, all you
• 39:53
  can do is perform tests. And all we did is
• 39:56
  try and come up with every kind of test we
• 39:59
  possibly could. I mean, we tested, you know, it violated
• 40:04
  a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate.
• 40:08
  I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics, I mean, essentially,
• 40:12
  any machine, any device that operates always makes extra heat.
• 40:16
  Nothing works at 100% efficient.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Even the.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: The headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of
• 40:23
  that power is going to be converted to heat, and
• 40:25
  it's just wasted. This didn't. I mean, we looked at
• 40:29
  back then we had infrared cameras. They're different today, but
• 40:32
  back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the
• 40:35
  camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared
• 40:39
  images you've seen. But it never got, no matter what
• 40:43
  the load was on the reactor, it never got above
• 40:46
  the ambient temperature. which is impossible.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.
• 40:57
  We tried measuring magnetic fields and there was nothing there.
• 41:01
  So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters,
• 41:05
  the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do
• 41:09
  with it and how it was focused. So we really
• 41:12
  spent all our time just trying to see what the
• 41:16
  stuff can do and what we can control.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: So you were seeing what it could do, but you
• 41:21
  couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: No, not really. I mean, we really, we really could
• 41:27
  only use a, or come up with a best guess.
• 41:30
  And now I can't say we really, that I could
• 41:35
  absolutely state for certainly or certainty how anything actually worked.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Now, did you know at all how they were piloting it?
• 41:45
  Because they were doing some tests where they were having
• 41:49
  these things fly around in the sky, and this is
• 41:54
  what gets us deeper into your story. Right.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: I was out there for one test. In fact, I
• 42:06
  was with Barry in the lab, and Dennis came in
• 42:10
  and said, We're about to run a test. Why don't
• 42:12
  you guys come out? Or I think he said, Barry,
• 42:15
  why don't you come out here and bring Bob with you?
• 42:19
  We went out there and the craft was already outside
• 42:23
  the hangar and was just preparing to lift off. Now,
• 42:27
  they were in communication with somebody in the craft.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: So there was a person in the craft?
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was certainly a person in there. Now, it's
• 42:35
  not a comfortable place to be in because it's small.
• 42:38
  So the guy has to be sitting on the floor
• 42:40
  in the middle, my best guess.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: And this is the same specific craft that you worked
• 42:45
  on because that was the only craft that you were in.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: The only one that I touched and worked on. And
• 42:52
  it quietly lifted off the ground, which was incredibly impressive
• 42:55
  to see.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Quietly or silently?
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Well, quietly because it produced– Did it make some sort
• 43:02
  of a noise? It produced– a little corona discharge from
• 43:07
  the bottom. A corona discharge is kind of a high
• 43:09
  voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge. As it was lifting
• 43:13
  off the ground, you can hear a slight hiss sound. Now,
• 43:16
  as soon as it cleared the ground by about five
• 43:18
  or 10 feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing
• 43:21
  stopped and the blue go disappeared. So it lifted off
• 43:25
  quietly and then it hovered silently, if you want to
• 43:28
  be specific.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Wow. So then what kind of maneuvers was it doing?
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: For that particular time, it took off, moved a little
• 43:37
  around to the left and right, and then sat back down.
• 43:42
  The craft itself, they communicated with it because I saw
• 43:49
  the guy talking in a regular VHF radio to the
• 43:55
  person in the craft. And I even saw the frequency
• 43:58
  that was on the frequency counter of the radio. communication,
• 44:02
  the transceiver there. But what's weird is he shouldn't be
• 44:07
  able to communicate with the craft with a radio. The
• 44:11
  radio wave should bend around the craft. I mean, it
• 44:16
  shouldn't be possible. Every single thing about the craft and
• 44:20
  the way they operated didn't make any sense to us.
• 44:25
  I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Why should the frequency bend around the craft?
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Well, You really have to look at the way the
• 44:33
  gravity wave comes out of the craft. There's the reactors
• 44:36
  in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up
• 44:39
  to the top. There's actually a small appendage that sticks
• 44:41
  out of the top of the craft, and it produces
• 44:44
  a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft. Now, if the
• 44:47
  craft is sitting in the air, and you walk underneath
• 44:51
  it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft.
• 44:56
  The light bends around it. You're bending gravity. It bends light.
• 45:00
  It bends radio waves. It shouldn't be possible to communicate
• 45:06
  with a craft that has an envelope around it that's
• 45:09
  distorting all forms of energy. But they were apparently in
• 45:14
  contact with it.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Somehow or another, through some unexplained way that they didn't
• 45:19
  bother explaining to you. So this thing gets up. It
• 45:22
  just does some very simple maneuvers, left, right, left, right,
• 45:24
  goes down. And– did they discuss this with you? I mean,
• 45:29
  they said they wanted you to see it.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: No, they just wanted, no, they didn't discuss anything with me.
• 45:34
  It sat down, we looked around for a bit, and
• 45:37
  Barry said, let's go back. We went back in the lab.
• 45:39
  All we got to do was see it. Fast forward
• 45:45
  to some months later, I did have the test flight
• 45:49
  schedule of the craft. Now, they had times they had
• 45:52
  designated high-performance tests. This obviously wasn't one that, uh, was
• 45:57
  a high performance test. The, uh, high performance test went,
• 46:00
  goes above the mountain range and they do much more
• 46:04
  radical moves with the thing. Look, this is a prized
• 46:07
  item and they're not doing anything like taking it out
• 46:10
  of the atmosphere of flying around to other countries or
• 46:12
  anything like that. This, they just play with this thing
• 46:15
  right over the test site. Um, but they were doing
• 46:18
  some radical moves with it. And since I had the
• 46:21
  test flight schedule, statistically, the amount of traffic in the
• 46:27
  surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays. And
• 46:31
  that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights
• 46:35
  occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance
• 46:39
  that anyone would see what's going on.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden
• 46:46
  territory around Area 51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right?
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that occurred... After my story came out,
• 46:55
  then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying
• 46:58
  to look down into there. And they kind of freaked
• 47:01
  out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back. But, yeah,
• 47:05
  I think all that occurred long after that I came out.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: So you're working there. And while you're working there, you're
• 47:14
  under this crazy schedule. Forgive me for explaining your story.
• 47:18
  But you would get these phone calls. You would have
• 47:22
  to go to the– to the airport at 11 p.m.,
• 47:27
  and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently so. Now, I did give my permission to have,
• 47:36
  you know, as part of the security clearance process, I
• 47:42
  gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things
• 47:45
  of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff.
• 47:49
  You know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian clearance,
• 47:52
  top secret clearance or military top secret clearance, they go
• 47:56
  talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make
• 47:59
  sure you're not connected to foreign countries. But, you know,
• 48:02
  monitoring your phone is nothing unusual. However, they insisted that,
• 48:09
  you know, you don't even talk to your loved one,
• 48:11
  to your partner, to your wife, whatever about what's going on.
• 48:14
  So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know
• 48:17
  the phone was being monitored. Well, Part of the security
• 48:22
  clearance is that not only do you not have any
• 48:25
  connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you
• 48:29
  have to have a stable home life too. Well, she
• 48:31
  started having an affair with a flight instructor. Now, they
• 48:35
  were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it
• 48:38
  and I didn't. So they stopped me coming in and
• 48:42
  their attitude at the time was, we need to see
• 48:46
  how this is going to play out and if Lazar
• 48:49
  is going to get a little weird or anything. So
• 48:51
  Let's just hold them off from coming in and see
• 48:57
  what happens.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: And they explained this to you, what was happening?
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went
• 49:03
  on and there were guys that were following me around.
• 49:08
  And I started getting a little concerned going, well, are
• 49:11
  they booting me out of the project? And if so,
• 49:16
  they're not just going to let me hang out at
• 49:18
  home and go get a new job knowing what I know.
• 49:21
  So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned.
• 49:25
  And I took my closest friends and just kind of
• 49:28
  got together. I said, hey, remember that job I told
• 49:32
  you about? This is what's going on. And you don't
• 49:36
  need to take my word for it. Wednesday night, we
• 49:40
  need to all go out here. I want to show
• 49:41
  you what's going on. So I took everybody and we
• 49:45
  went out to, um, remember since I had the test
• 49:47
  flight schedule and went outside the base, um, out into
• 49:52
  the desert. And so everybody could see, you know, one
• 49:54
  of the high performance tests and, uh, you know, it
• 49:57
  left quite an imprint on everybody. So they knew I wasn't.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: And there's videos of these tests, right? Yeah.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: But remember this is in the, It's in the dark
• 50:06
  in the 80s with a big monster-sized camcorder, and you've
• 50:09
  got a bright light jumping around. But, yeah, I mean,
• 50:13
  we did video of it, but there's no– by today's standards.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: It's– But is your video specifically available, the video that
• 50:19
  you took?
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: Well, George Knapp has it.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Is it online?
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: I have no idea.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Jeremy?
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I show clips of it in my film. It's online.
• 50:28
  And someone did a deep analysis of it. It was
• 50:31
  interesting to take a look at how.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Pull this microphone up to your face. Give me about
• 50:35
  a fist from your face.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: All right. You know, to see how his video looks now.
• 50:39
  But as far as video evidence, I mean, we are
• 50:42
  talking 80s campers. The most important thing is the human
• 50:44
  story here. Everybody that he took up there on three
• 50:48
  separate occasions, they don't all like each other. They don't
• 50:51
  all talk. They all agree on one thing. They saw
• 50:54
  something that night at the exact point in time and
• 50:56
  space that Bob Lazar said. And remember, this is 17, 15,
• 51:00
  17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew
• 51:02
  really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose Lake. And they
• 51:05
  all agree. They saw something that night they had never
• 51:08
  seen before and they've never seen since right when he
• 51:11
  said it. So that's one of like the six things
• 51:13
  where I'm like, how did he know? You can dismiss him.
• 51:16
  I tried to dismiss it. But some things we can't
• 51:18
  get around. And there's about five or six of them.
• 51:21
  How did he know about those?
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: If Jamie wants to find that video right now, what
• 51:24
  would he look under?
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Bob Lazar, UFO, S4, Area 51, just kind of like that.
• 51:32
  So it's like the S4 UFO video, Bob Lazar. And
• 51:35
  the guy does an analysis, but you're analyzing these 80s videos.
• 51:41
  From the very beginning, Bob never said, I have proof
• 51:44
  of my story and I'm going to tell the world.
• 51:46
  He said at the very beginning, I cannot prove my story.
• 51:49
  That's not why I'm telling this. George Knapp convinced him
• 51:53
  to tell people and he lived through it. And I
• 51:55
  didn't believe it either until I talked with George.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you, you filmed these, this test flight, one
• 52:04
  test flight, and then you get caught.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: Actually, it was, I think the third time because we
• 52:11
  went out there the first time. Everybody saw it. Everybody
• 52:15
  was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers and, um,
• 52:19
  You know, everybody had a lot to say about it.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: The maneuvers that I've seen, I've seen the video. It doesn't,
• 52:23
  I don't think there's something we have now that does that. No.
• 52:26
  In terms of like a human piloted craft. I mean,
• 52:30
  I don't know, obviously, what the government.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: No, it's impossible. Nothing can move like that. And remember,
• 52:35
  we didn't start filming from the very beginning. You know,
• 52:39
  we were waiting for something, you know, to happen. The
• 52:41
  craft took off and then came back. Flying at a stop,
• 52:44
  you know, turned at a right angle, flew back. And then,
• 52:46
  you know, after it did some, you know, amazing stuff
• 52:49
  to get the camera. And then we started filming. So
• 52:52
  it doesn't have all of it on there. It just
• 52:54
  has some.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: The way I describe it to my friends and they said,
• 52:56
  what does this look like? I said, take a laser
• 52:58
  pointer and then have a wall and then move it
• 53:00
  around the wall. Like, you know how it moves around
• 53:03
  the wall? It doesn't seem like it has anything to
• 53:04
  do with inertia or physics or it's not impeded in
• 53:08
  any way by the atmosphere. Yeah. That's what it looks like.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: You're essentially separated. from reality as crazy as that sounds
• 53:15
  with being in, in case it's own gravitational envelope, inertia
• 53:21
  is not going to affect it. And, you know, this is,
• 53:25
  this is how some of those recent sightings with commander
• 53:27
  David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO.
• 53:31
  I mean, he describes exactly that the thing operates exactly
• 53:35
  the way I was describing. That's why he was interested
• 53:38
  to talk to me. But we saw this, And, you know,
• 53:44
  on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away
• 53:46
  with it. We should try it again the next test
• 53:48
  flight day. So this became a thing to do. And
• 53:51
  I think it was on the third time that we
• 53:55
  got caught. I mean, we started becoming a little careless.
• 53:58
  I think we took a motor home out there. You know,
• 54:01
  I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could
• 54:03
  possibly imagine.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Took a grill, started tailgating.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was ridiculous. Again, you're in your 20s.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: And, you know, what was funny was– we went out
• 54:13
  there and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning
• 54:17
  on the front of a vehicle. And just for some reason,
• 54:22
  we just started talking shit like, uh, well, I hope
• 54:26
  they realize that, uh, I don't remember what we were saying,
• 54:30
  but you know, that something about attacking the base or
• 54:35
  something along those lines and stealing the craft or something
• 54:38
  like that. And, um, Then about 20 feet in front
• 54:43
  of us, we see a little green light fall on
• 54:46
  the ground and roll to us. And unbeknownst to us,
• 54:49
  now it's pitch black. You can't see your hand in
• 54:51
  front of your face. There were a bunch of guards
• 54:53
  standing right out there. And they had a night vision
• 54:55
  scope where they were like from here to the wall
• 54:58
  looking at us, listening to us. And the guy dropped it.
• 55:00
  And the scope rolled over to us. And you could
• 55:02
  see the green screen. We turned the lights on. And
• 55:06
  all these guys are there. So it was– Whoa.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught as
• 55:13
  we should have.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: So when they catch you and they bring you in,
• 55:15
  then what happens?
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I went in for debriefing. The following day, I
• 55:20
  went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind
• 55:23
  of a defunct base that they used to use at
• 55:26
  the nuclear test site. And this is when they brought
• 55:30
  out the transcript of the phone call with my wife.
• 55:36
  And You know, they sat me down and we said,
• 55:39
  you know, when we meant to keep the secret, we
• 55:41
  meant you can't tell your friends, right? You know, and
• 55:44
  it just being sarcastic and trying to. And then they
• 55:48
  got real serious. But this is where they, you know,
• 55:52
  took the transcript out and were reading me what my
• 55:56
  wife and, you know, our friend were talking about. And
• 56:03
  it was a hard time.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: So what happens from there? What do they do with you?
• 56:09
  Why don't they arrest you?
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know why. I'm not sure
• 56:14
  exactly they knew what to do. But they did let
• 56:17
  me go that night. And I went home. And this
• 56:21
  is kind of when the most stressful part started.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: Because you're realizing that you're being monitored 24-7.
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored,
• 56:29
  but now I know I'm in trouble. And it wasn't
• 56:32
  a short time after that that I contacted, you know,
• 56:35
  at that time that Only investigative reporter I had heard
• 56:39
  of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and told him
• 56:43
  some of the story because I had no idea what
• 56:45
  the hell was going to happen at that point.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to
• 56:52
  find holes in it, tells it, puts it online, and
• 56:56
  makes everybody aware of it, and that's how I found
• 56:57
  out about it.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to make a long story short.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: What happens– yeah, to really make a long story short.
• 57:03
  What happens from there on? I mean, do they contact
• 57:06
  you and say, hey, Bob, it's probably a good idea
• 57:08
  if you shut up? Do they try to label you
• 57:14
  as crazy?
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: Boy, there are a lot of things that happened between
• 57:22
  that point. I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to
• 57:26
  fill in the story. we'd have to go back to
• 57:29
  Los Alamos and... Well, I really don't want to talk
• 57:34
  about that.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Top secret weapons stuff that you were working on.
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: No, I'm talking about the 115. Well, I don't know.
• 57:47
  I have to think about how I'd.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: What is the problem?
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: I don't want to get myself into more trouble by
• 57:55
  admitting something, so... I just have to dance around a couple.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: He was rated just during the filming of the movie.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: People thought it was made up. The movie's great, by
• 58:04
  the way.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Joe.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: And it's on Netflix right now if anybody wants to
• 58:07
  check it out. And if you're one of those people
• 58:09
  like me who, you know, I've always loved the idea
• 58:13
  of UFOs. I became extremely weary talking to people who
• 58:17
  are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many
• 58:20
  of them that are full of shit. And not just
• 58:22
  full of shit. They're childishly delirious. Like the way they
• 58:27
  talk about things. I mean there's so many people that
• 58:30
  are– that I'm in contact. They reach me in the
• 58:33
  night and they explain to me what we're doing to
• 58:35
  the ocean is wrong. Like you're like, okay.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: This is one of the reasons I didn't want to
• 58:40
  do the show.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sure. Well, no.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: It's no– yeah, well. I mean it's no joke. We've
• 58:46
  had people literally camp out on our front lawn and–
• 58:52
  In some ways, I can relate to some of these people.
• 58:54
  Maybe some of them did really have some kind of
• 58:56
  experience or saw something, and all their friends think they're crazy.
• 59:00
  But hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio,
• 59:03
  and at least he knows I'm not full of shit,
• 59:06
  so I got to talk to him. And so most
• 59:09
  of the conversations... I get are people trying to get
• 59:12
  a hold of me going, Bob, you got to listen
• 59:14
  to me. I'm coming to talk to you. I'm driving
• 59:17
  from Oklahoma or whatever. But some of them are just.
• 59:21
  fucking bad shit crazy and they're frightening.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the
• 59:27
  conspiracy world. There's a lot of people that have real issues.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to
• 59:33
  not say that we have to look at what's going
• 59:37
  on now and understand. I've heard on your show a
• 59:39
  bunch of stuff about what's going on now and to
• 59:42
  not really understand what's going on now, you can't see
• 59:46
  Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years and
• 59:49
  at some point we should Just touch upon that. The
• 59:53
  biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case
• 59:57
  that came out, I've heard people even on the show say, oh,
• 1:00:00
  there's a glitch in the radar. That's a data poor perspective.
• 1:00:04
  You just don't know yet what's really going on. Commander Fravor,
• 1:00:07
  I was able to get the interview with him to
• 1:00:09
  talk with him way before it became public. I got
• 1:00:12
  that from him. He saw it. Other pilots saw it.
• 1:00:15
  This is a big thing that's going on right now.
• 1:00:18
  They had more sightings on the East Coast recently, cubes
• 1:00:22
  with spherical oars. These are not aerodynamic, and these are
• 1:00:25
  the people we trust to defend us on 9-11. Commander
• 1:00:27
  Fravor protected Los Angeles on 9-11. So we trust them,
• 1:00:31
  but they're not trained observers. Radar, individuals see these things.
• 1:00:35
  And the big one, just to throw it down so
• 1:00:37
  we can consider a story a little differently, there's more
• 1:00:39
  depth to it. The big one is the United States
• 1:00:42
  government has admitted that they have been continuously studying the
• 1:00:46
  UFO phenomenon. That program was called AATIP, Advanced Aerospace, or sorry,
• 1:00:52
  was called OSAP. That's the mother program. George Knapp got
• 1:00:56
  that out. They announced through the New York Times about AATIP,
• 1:01:00
  but OSAP, these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Applications Program.
• 1:01:04
  Who cares? That was the mother program. So they've admitted
• 1:01:08
  we didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project Blue Book.
• 1:01:11
  We don't think it's crazy. We actually want to reverse
• 1:01:14
  engineer the technology. That's why on your other show, You said,
• 1:01:16
  what's this AAV thing? It's like they're making up another
• 1:01:19
  UFO name. Well, hold on. There's a reason. Because in
• 1:01:22
  the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released, that
• 1:01:26
  everybody said was fake until now they know is real,
• 1:01:28
  they call them AAVs, which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles. People
• 1:01:34
  are getting the acronyms wrong. So the reason for the
• 1:01:36
  terminology change is so that we can mimic what we're
• 1:01:39
  reading in the DIA documents. People can look for that now.
• 1:01:42
  So they changed the names to get people away from
• 1:01:45
  UFO or UAP, even like Hillary Clinton said on air, right?
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: So what are you talking about?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel. Oh, Jimmy,
• 1:01:56
  we don't call them UFOs anymore. We call them UAPs,
• 1:01:59
  unidentified aerial phenomenon, right? So she kind of was giving,
• 1:02:03
  the Clintons are very into the UFO topic. Senator Reid,
• 1:02:07
  you know, he's done a lot for the subject, the
• 1:02:09
  study of it, right? So she informed the public so
• 1:02:13
  they could look for the right term. So these terms
• 1:02:15
  are important because the DIA in those documents, they've been
• 1:02:19
  calling them AAVs for quite some time now.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: And they changed the name to anomalous.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: No, that's kind of a misnomer. So they always mess
• 1:02:29
  around with things, but it's actually advanced.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Right. But when they're describing it in the news, they
• 1:02:33
  were calling it anomalous aerospace vehicles.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Totally. And that's cool. They were also saying, anomalous aerospace threats, AAT, right?
• 1:02:41
  Because they want the sense of a threat. So my
• 1:02:43
  point is, if people don't know this now and they
• 1:02:47
  think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that
• 1:02:49
  we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending
• 1:02:52
  money on it, and that we're getting great data from
• 1:02:55
  visual pilots to radar. That's why we know it's aerospace.
• 1:02:58
  They dropped from 80,000 feet. But guess what? That's the
• 1:03:01
  top scope of the SPY-1 radar is 80,000 feet. So
• 1:03:05
  the radar system they were using, it was coming from
• 1:03:07
  above that. So my point is this. If you don't
• 1:03:11
  understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve
• 1:03:14
  because you don't have the information. Because of the stigma
• 1:03:18
  that you're talking about, I saw you get totally upset
• 1:03:20
  with the UFO topic. I met you first when you
• 1:03:22
  were totally upset with the UFO topic. It's the people.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: When?
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: When you're doing your... Hold this microphone. I'm sorry, man.
• 1:03:29
  When you're doing your show, you know, the Joe Rogan
• 1:03:31
  questions everything, I could see how.
• 1:03:35
  How frustrating is, trust me, I have been frustrated to hell. Luckily,
• 1:03:38
  my mentor is George Knapp, and he's taught me the
• 1:03:40
  pitfalls as I went through it. My whole point in
• 1:03:44
  this rant right here is just that we have to
• 1:03:47
  now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts, not
• 1:03:51
  someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a glitch.
• 1:03:54
  They're not. And so if you don't know that, you
• 1:03:56
  just don't have the information yet.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Not just that, knowing the facts as we know them
• 1:03:59
  in 2019, not in 1988. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: So what has he said that has come true? He's
• 1:04:06
  totally unimpressed with it, right? What has he said that's
• 1:04:09
  come true? So I was like, Bob, they've announced gravity
• 1:04:12
  as a wave. You were right, man. You're vindicated. And
• 1:04:15
  he looks at me and he's like, well, if you
• 1:04:17
  think about it, Jeremy, I had like a 50-50 chance.
• 1:04:20
  He was not very impressed, right?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: When did they announce gravity as a wave?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: So they detected, in a sense, they detected gravity waves.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Who is they?
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: You might know more. There's two black holes that were colliding,
• 1:04:33
  and that's how they were able to detect.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, somebody built, I don't know which group it was
• 1:04:37
  or what part of the government.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: That's what Google's for.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But they built a gigantic gravity wave detector and
• 1:04:45
  pretty much detected.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: That there are such things as gravity waves.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: First observation of gravitational waves, it says it was in 2016. Okay,
• 1:04:56
  the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th
• 1:05:00
  of September 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo
• 1:05:04
  collaborators on 11th of February 2016. Previously, gravitational waves had
• 1:05:10
  only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing
• 1:05:14
  of pulsars in binary star systems.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Dun, dun, dun!
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched the predictions
• 1:05:25
  of general relativity for a gravitational wave emanating from the
• 1:05:33
  inward– I'm trying to get this. From the inward spiral
• 1:05:37
  and merger of a pair of black holes around 36
• 1:05:40
  and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of
• 1:05:45
  the single resulting black hole.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean– In the 80s, the predominant theory was
• 1:05:52
  gravity is produced by gravitons, theoretical particles. But they're not.
• 1:06:00
  They're waves. They're not particles.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: So the thought is that the way we experience gravity,
• 1:06:05
  it's based on mass, which is why the moon, which
• 1:06:09
  is roughly one-quarter the size of the Earth, has one-sixth
• 1:06:12
  of the Earth's gravity. So there's some sort of a
• 1:06:14
  computation you can make based on mass.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: Right. And remember– We can observe the effects of gravity,
• 1:06:21
  but we have no idea what it is. All we
• 1:06:25
  can do is observe it, and we can't make it.
• 1:06:27
  The only way you can make gravity is just put
• 1:06:29
  more mass together, and it's just a product of gravity.
• 1:06:32
  But if you have a machine that makes gravity, you
• 1:06:37
  can pretty much do anything. You can affect time. You
• 1:06:40
  can have force fields. All that stuff that's in science
• 1:06:43
  fiction becomes reality if you have a machine that can
• 1:06:47
  make gravity. And what we worked on in the desert
• 1:06:50
  was a machine that makes gravity.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear
• 1:06:56
  reactor to the Victorian era. I love that analogy. Because
• 1:07:01
  back then, that was impossible. That was magic. What you're
• 1:07:05
  talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this
• 1:07:08
  four years ago, that this is a wave. As much
• 1:07:13
  as we know and as impressed as we are, as
• 1:07:15
  we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we
• 1:07:19
  are than every other creature on this planet we're still
• 1:07:22
  in many ways in the adolescence of technological.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: Innovation absolutely absolutely if even adolescence.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: And when you're talking about this binary star system and
• 1:07:33
  zeta reticuli and who knows how much longer these things
• 1:07:37
  have been around than us who knows what their evolutionary
• 1:07:40
  cycle's been who knows what i mean we might be
• 1:07:44
  talking about something that's a million years more advanced than
• 1:07:46
  us Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: It could easily be. Now I'm not in, believe it
• 1:07:51
  or not, I'm not into UFOs. I don't follow stories or,
• 1:07:54
  you know.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: Even after your experiences?
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: No, I'm fascinated with the technology and I, it really,
• 1:08:00
  it irks me like every night I go to sleep that,
• 1:08:03
  you know, I don't, that it was my own doing
• 1:08:07
  essentially that, that prevented me from continuing on in the,
• 1:08:11
  in the project. I mean, it's the, that to be
• 1:08:14
  on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me. But,
• 1:08:20
  you know, by the same token, I don't really care
• 1:08:23
  that there's aliens or where they come from. I mean,
• 1:08:25
  the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by.
• 1:08:29
  So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort
• 1:08:31
  of thing. But George Knapp is, I mean, he's the
• 1:08:34
  guy that has the contacts and tries to thread everything together.
• 1:08:38
  And what he recently told me is he found I
• 1:08:42
  don't know, it was either documentation or people that he
• 1:08:44
  spoke to. It's the existence of this project, the project
• 1:08:48
  that I was on. It's something that they seem to
• 1:08:53
  take out every eight or ten years.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: So that's a very specific memo, and this is actually,
• 1:08:58
  the first time I'll be very clear with people about it.
• 1:09:00
  It's a big topic of conversation right now. It's called
• 1:09:03
  the Wilson Memo. You can look it up. Admiral Wilson
• 1:09:08
  met with a scientist who actually was featured in one
• 1:09:10
  of my films. Everybody has been debating whether or not
• 1:09:14
  this document of a conversation... with a, with an sitting
• 1:09:18
  Admiral at the time is a real document. It's an
• 1:09:21
  actual conversation that happened. And this document is where everybody
• 1:09:24
  wants to know the world is going crazy right now
• 1:09:25
  in the UFO world. I'll tell you straight up right now,
• 1:09:29
  I'm in the position to know, and it is a
• 1:09:32
  real document that it is real. So the conversation you
• 1:09:36
  read in that, that conversation was had, I can't attest to.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: Every, you're not being very clear. Please.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: No problem. So, There was a document that is circulating
• 1:09:46
  right now that is really big. It's going around everywhere.
• 1:09:48
  People are asking.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: What is this document?
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: It's called the Wilson Memo. It's how you can find
• 1:09:53
  it online. Or the Wilson Leak.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: There it is. Jimmy's got it. The Wilson Memorandum. Use
• 1:09:59
  of human phone. No, no, no, no. No, that's not it.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion,
• 1:10:08
  oddly enough, at special projects at EG & G. And
• 1:10:12
  if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling
• 1:10:14
  everybody right now, it's real. And we'll see, my history
• 1:10:17
  is pretty good with like saying if something's real or not, right?
• 1:10:20
  So here we go. The document comes out. They meet
• 1:10:22
  at EG & G special projects. In 1989, they stumble
• 1:10:27
  into a problem. This happens. They put the technology away.
• 1:10:32
  And then they bring it back out and see if
• 1:10:33
  material science has caught up and if they can make
• 1:10:36
  any progress. So this document kind of talks about this process.
• 1:10:40
  The big thing I get from it, and a lot
• 1:10:42
  of it's vindicating to Bob. And one of the things
• 1:10:44
  that's vindicating besides the EG & G thing is that
• 1:10:47
  private industry. So this guy's an admiral. And he says,
• 1:10:52
  I found out about your SAP, your special access program.
• 1:10:55
  I need to know about it. And he's going to
• 1:10:58
  a private part of industry. And he is denied access.
• 1:11:02
  And he says, you know, I should be running this program.
• 1:11:06
  And they were able to deny him access. So I
• 1:11:09
  think the takeaway here is check it out. I'm telling
• 1:11:12
  you that that is an actual correct that is a
• 1:11:14
  leak now everything said in that document i don't know
• 1:11:17
  what are you.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Talking about what what is said in that document specifically.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: It's it's uh between a scientist and and an admiral
• 1:11:22
  that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're
• 1:11:25
  talking about um the the search for the the ufo
• 1:11:29
  subject the search to get special access program access to
• 1:11:33
  all of these different things like reverse engineering programs so
• 1:11:37
  in this document they talk about it uh i believe
• 1:11:41
  that This document, the person that went was employed by
• 1:11:44
  Robert Bigelow, one of the guys that has a couple
• 1:11:46
  of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: He's the guy who owns Skinwalker Ranch.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: No, he's not. He was the guy that owns Skinwalker.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: He used to own it. Okay.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he used to own it. There's a new owner,
• 1:11:56
  and I interviewed him for my other film, but there's
• 1:11:59
  a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more
• 1:12:01
  about that soon. But there's stuff that you'll be hearing
• 1:12:05
  about Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner. Anyway,
• 1:12:08
  the whole point of this insertion here is just that
• 1:12:12
  that document kind of validates a lot of this idea
• 1:12:16
  Bob just said, that they make a little progress, then
• 1:12:19
  they can't go anywhere. They tuck it away, and then
• 1:12:22
  they bring it back out, you know, 10 years later
• 1:12:24
  and start working on it. What is the limiting factor?
• 1:12:27
  I think Bob should speak on this, but it's the
• 1:12:29
  material science.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really where physics is. So, I can see
• 1:12:34
  them doing that. I mean, I didn't have any information
• 1:12:38
  on that, but I think what George uncovered is probably
• 1:12:41
  accurate that we try and do what we can, and
• 1:12:45
  once we reach a roadblock on we really can't figure
• 1:12:48
  it out, it's just frigging wait. Put the thing away.
• 1:12:52
  Wait for science to catch up, and a decade later,
• 1:12:55
  let's take the project out again and see, all right,
• 1:12:57
  now where can we go?
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: But there's got to be someone who remains informed, right? Oh, yeah.
• 1:13:02
  So you've got your scientists like you and Barry. You've
• 1:13:05
  got your people that you compartmentalize. You've got these people
• 1:13:08
  working on this project.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there has to be some people that know everything.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: You've got security, and then someone's going to be on
• 1:13:14
  the outside. saying, hey, we need people to guard this building.
• 1:13:17
  Don't let anybody in for 10 years.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of that is private industry, and
• 1:13:21
  I think that's how they keep it. Yeah, I think
• 1:13:23
  that's how they literally... Because the government is just so leaky.
• 1:13:27
  I think that's kind of what they're doing.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: That's what the document kind of proves. You just articulated that,
• 1:13:32
  that it is in control of private industry.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: What private industry? Some aerospace company, something? I don't know.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Admiral wouldn't name it in the conversation. So they.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: still have these things, supposedly?
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: I would guess. I mean, I don't have any information
• 1:13:51
  on them.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of
• 1:13:56
  any idea of where they got them or how they
• 1:13:59
  got them?
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: No, but something must have been said to me from Barry.
• 1:14:07
  But it was just too long ago and I can't
• 1:14:09
  quite remember what was said, but it It just left
• 1:14:12
  a seed in my mind. I think at least one
• 1:14:14
  of them was part of an archaeological dig. So it's old.
• 1:14:21
  At least one of them is old. I don't know
• 1:14:23
  if it was the one I worked on, but I
• 1:14:24
  remember something to do with an archaeological dig.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: So that means it's not just old, it's ancient.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: That would be a great Steven Spielberg movie. Yeah. Right?
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: As all of it would.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That tripped me out when he said that for
• 1:14:39
  the first time.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a freak out right there. A couple of
• 1:14:43
  dudes with some brushes looking for a Tyrannosaurus Rex bone
• 1:14:46
  that hit metal.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: And when did they find it? That they have nine
• 1:14:50
  of them.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: Well, and how could we have not heard about that?
• 1:14:53
  What about the guys with the brushes? How could you
• 1:14:56
  uncover something like that?
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: Well, Joe's newspaper at home does. I mean, they said
• 1:15:00
  it on that first day.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, you mean the Roswell Daily Record?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the one you told me.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a cover. What is this here, Jamie?
• 1:15:06
  This is the document, but I had to do some
• 1:15:08
  digging to find it.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's just kind of, Yeah, so this is where
• 1:15:11
  they meet at EG & G, and this is Admiral Wilson,
• 1:15:13
  and there's a lot more coming out. Now, I want
• 1:15:15
  to be clear. George didn't put this out. He didn't
• 1:15:18
  leak this out to anybody. This is– I can tell
• 1:15:20
  you how I.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: Who recorded this conversation?
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: So this was an employee of, at the time, Robert Bigelow.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: And this is in 2002? Right.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Do you remember when he had that government contract called OSAP,
• 1:15:30
  the world all knows about now? And he had NIDS
• 1:15:32
  that studied the ranch. That $ 22 million, everybody is saying
• 1:15:35
  it was for AATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The
• 1:15:41
  $ 22 million was for OSAP that was pushed through through Congress,
• 1:15:45
  three congressmen, right? An astronaut. It was pushed through. And
• 1:15:49
  that's what that $ 22 million– by the way, they spend
• 1:15:52
  more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs.
• 1:15:55
  If it was just this program, which I think is funny.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: They probably make a lot more money from Viagra than
• 1:15:59
  they do from UFOs too.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: Well, you never know how it seeds into a population.
• 1:16:02
  But anyway, this program– this is what was the mother program.
• 1:16:07
  So it got the $ 22 million. And really it was
• 1:16:09
  to study Skinwalker Ranch. Oddly enough, that $ 22 million all
• 1:16:13
  was inspired by the phenomenon they were seeing at Skinwalker
• 1:16:16
  Ranch because the scientists, they're seeing vehicles come through like
• 1:16:21
  a space in the sky.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we went there. I went there with Duncan. We
• 1:16:25
  interviewed a bunch of people that seemed full of shit,
• 1:16:28
  but a couple that didn't. It was very, very interesting.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: Totally. But if you look, I spent a lot of
• 1:16:34
  time in the area. I'm not talking about those stories.
• 1:16:36
  I'm saying there were scientists hired by the government, right,
• 1:16:39
  through Bigelow to study the ranch because they thought it
• 1:16:41
  was important. And, you know, whatever, whatever. The point is
• 1:16:44
  that $ 22 million was to study that. Then we have AATIP,
• 1:16:48
  which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military sightings,
• 1:16:51
  like Commander Fravers and that sort of thing. This document...
• 1:16:54
  is just one of those things that has now come
• 1:16:57
  forward that through the Bigelow studies, it was government funded
• 1:17:00
  and then it was personally funded and then government funded.
• 1:17:04
  It's just one of those things that kind of shakes
• 1:17:07
  you because you got this military guy who can't get
• 1:17:10
  access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial
• 1:17:15
  materials that they can't study it. So that's the claim
• 1:17:19
  right now. Give it some time. Let people dig more
• 1:17:21
  into this. it's fascinating, man.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: So you are essentially you're, you're, you're kicked out, right? You're,
• 1:17:32
  you're out of the, this program, you can't work with
• 1:17:35
  these crafts anymore. And do they give you any threats?
• 1:17:40
  Do they tell you what you have to do from
• 1:17:42
  here on out? Yeah.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the way it ended was, um, I
• 1:17:48
  told George Knapp all this stuff and, um, You know,
• 1:17:51
  he said, well, let's just get it on tape. Should
• 1:17:54
  something happen, at least we have a record of it.
• 1:17:56
  And I don't remember what the impetus was, but at
• 1:18:01
  some point George wanted to air it. And he said,
• 1:18:04
  you know, you make the call on it. And look,
• 1:18:08
  if at any point you change your mind, we won't
• 1:18:11
  air it. And it came down to the day where
• 1:18:14
  George wants to put it on the 5 o'clock news.
• 1:18:16
  He said, this is important stuff. People have to know
• 1:18:18
  about it. And I thought it was, too. It's kind
• 1:18:21
  of a crime. I know you've got to keep the
• 1:18:23
  technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this
• 1:18:27
  stuff is going on, that we have actual hardware from
• 1:18:30
  another civilization. It's a big fucking deal, probably the biggest
• 1:18:35
  one there ever was. And George said, you know, today's
• 1:18:41
  the day we've got to put it on the news
• 1:18:43
  or something to that effect. And when it came right
• 1:18:46
  down to the time to air it, I changed my
• 1:18:48
  mind and I said, we're not doing it. And that's
• 1:18:52
  what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and
• 1:18:55
  George trying to get the tape, but he won because
• 1:18:58
  he was a bigger guy.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: So you actually physically wrestled?
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it was more of a pulling match.
• 1:19:03
  We were, I don't think we ever hit the ground, but, uh,
• 1:19:06
  he got the tape and put it in the player
• 1:19:08
  and boom, five o'clock news was on. And then, um,
• 1:19:11
  I got a call after that. And they said it
• 1:19:13
  was from Dennis. He said, do you have any idea
• 1:19:16
  what we're going to do to you now? And he
• 1:19:18
  hung up the phone. That was the last communication I
• 1:19:20
  had with him.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: And what has happened to you since then?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: After that, um, A lot of people I've known either
• 1:19:33
  were audited by the IRS. Anybody I know that had
• 1:19:37
  clearances that worked in secure programs had their clearances pulled.
• 1:19:42
  One of mine that Jeremy knows.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: He's going on camera with me soon. He'll tell the
• 1:19:49
  story now that he's out of work up there.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: He was working up at the Tonopah Test Range waiting
• 1:19:54
  for his clearance to come through, and they pulled that.
• 1:19:58
  It became... It's like if they can't get the person
• 1:20:01
  that's involved, they just create a problem for everybody that
• 1:20:05
  surrounds them. And so, I mean, the way it turns out,
• 1:20:08
  it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was
• 1:20:11
  connected to. And that's an effective way of shutting someone up.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: Did you feel that by coming forward and going public,
• 1:20:18
  they couldn't just snuff you out?
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: That was, I mean, that's what I was told. And
• 1:20:22
  George and everybody, you know, said that. Oh, it's public. There's,
• 1:20:26
  you know, no one will touch you. And I, you know, I.
• 1:20:29
  I fell for it. Do you wish you didn't? Yeah, sometimes.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: Sometimes when it's just overstressed and people are camping on
• 1:20:38
  your lawn.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this is going to make things worse doing this.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: No, this is going to make things better.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: That's what I was trying to tell him.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: How is this going to make things better?
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself
• 1:20:51
  in a way that's going to make people who not
• 1:20:55
  only work in the government, people that are police officers
• 1:20:59
  and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists. They're
• 1:21:03
  going to empathize, empathize, empathize and empathize with what it
• 1:21:11
  must be like to be a person like you in
• 1:21:13
  your twenties who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and
• 1:21:18
  confronted with one of the most, if not the most
• 1:21:23
  important discovery in the history of human beings. The big question,
• 1:21:28
  Are we alone? It's the number one question. There's two questions, right?
• 1:21:32
  What happens when we die and are we alone? Those
• 1:21:35
  are the two big questions. And if we're not alone
• 1:21:39
  and someone knows we're not alone and these some people
• 1:21:43
  who know we're not alone are these bungling sort of
• 1:21:47
  military folks.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: Even if they weren't, it's a crime that they're not
• 1:21:51
  telling the rest of us.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent.
• 1:21:55
  I mean, they can't be competent. It seems to me
• 1:21:58
  to what you're describing that no one can be competent
• 1:22:00
  with this technology like the Victorian era scholars analyzing some
• 1:22:06
  sort of a nuclear reactor. There's no way.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: It's beyond us. Why do you think they're not telling us?
• 1:22:12
  Let's just make an assumption that this is true right now.
• 1:22:14
  Why do you think that they're not telling us that
• 1:22:17
  our government doesn't tell us? What's your best thought?
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: Well, let me put it into what you do. If
• 1:22:23
  I'm the president, okay, and I get this information, what
• 1:22:26
  do I do with this? What do I do with this?
• 1:22:27
  There's something that we don't know. There's something we don't understand.
• 1:22:31
  There's something that came from another world. We got it
• 1:22:33
  tucked away in the mountains. And I just wanted you
• 1:22:35
  guys to know about it. Hey, sleep tight. Hey, American
• 1:22:38
  Idol's on tonight. Who do you think is going to win? Yeah.
• 1:22:40
  Who's going to win America's Got Talent? That's not going
• 1:22:42
  to happen.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: So one is uncertainty, and the other one is what
• 1:22:46
  Bob and I have talked about a lot. Absolutely not
• 1:22:49
  knowing what to tell people because you don't really understand
• 1:22:51
  it yourself. Right.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: What do you say? You want to run a government?
• 1:22:54
  You want to get people to pay their taxes?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: But there's something else.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: What do you say?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: So you have these objects flying with impunity, right? But
• 1:23:01
  you have something else.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: Well, not only that, what can you say? Like how
• 1:23:05
  much do you really know?
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's mainly the technology. They just want to
• 1:23:08
  keep the technology secret because if they're– Yeah.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: Whoever gets this wins, dude.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: They win. You control the– you literally become invincible once
• 1:23:18
  you master the technology. You cannot penetrate a field like that.
• 1:23:23
  So I imagine that's– I know it's all science fiction,
• 1:23:25
  but science fiction turns into science fact. If you have
• 1:23:29
  real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you win. You win.
• 1:23:35
  You can force your will upon anybody. And like I said,
• 1:23:39
  there's so much more to the story. When I was
• 1:23:41
  first there, there were Russian scientists at S4. This was
• 1:23:47
  early on in the project.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: So this was before Operation Paperclip became public as well, right?
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: I would imagine. I don't know what the dates were.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: When was that?
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: 98, I think. 98.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know the dates on it.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: So it's roughly 10 years later, Operation Paperclip becomes Freedom
• 1:24:03
  of Information Act.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: We're talking about Russia, not Germany. He's talking about Russian scientists.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean Russian scientists, a lot of them
• 1:24:09
  came from Germany. A lot of those rocket scientists that
• 1:24:12
  work with NASA, they all came from Nazi scientists.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: So Russians got some of them.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: We got some of them. At some point, there was
• 1:24:20
  intense cooperation. A collaboration with Russia. I mean, even exchanging
• 1:24:23
  some ideas on nuclear weapons and EMP tests and stuff
• 1:24:27
  like that, things we would never have discussed with them.
• 1:24:29
  But at the same time, it was in the late 80s,
• 1:24:32
  they were involved in actually integrating In the area at
• 1:24:36
  S4 with us.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: So you got to communicate with these guys or you
• 1:24:39
  saw them?
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: No, I knew they were there. Barry would talk about
• 1:24:42
  the commies that were there.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: The commies?
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the commies.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: That was back when they were the commies.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they were real commies. Isn't that interesting? And at
• 1:24:53
  some point, it wasn't our group, but at some point
• 1:24:56
  there was a big discovery made. And this did not
• 1:25:00
  happen when I was there. It happened in between my
• 1:25:02
  trips to there. And after that, apparently, they decided it
• 1:25:06
  was just too cool to share with anybody, and the
• 1:25:08
  Russians were never allowed back on the base after that.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: But you don't know what that discovery was?
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: Like I said, it wasn't my group. So one of
• 1:25:14
  the other groups really found out something. But in typical
• 1:25:20
  American fashion, it was, all right, this is ours. You
• 1:25:23
  guys get the hell out of here.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar?
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: No, nothing that I had heard.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: See, that was the thing that always freaked me out,
• 1:25:33
  was why, if something was so superior to human beings,
• 1:25:37
  it's almost like visiting an ant colony. Like, why would
• 1:25:40
  you go to the queen? I don't give a fuck
• 1:25:42
  who the queen is. I'm a human. I'm so superior
• 1:25:44
  to ants. I don't care who you have running your hive.
• 1:25:47
  I'm just going to study it.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: I think it's who got it.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: Who got it?
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: Look at the, you know, rocket technology in Germany.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: But they got nine of them?
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either. So they
• 1:25:58
  were either... in the same area or one had clues
• 1:26:03
  to where others were. I mean, I don't know. You
• 1:26:06
  have to fill that in there, but you're right. I mean,
• 1:26:08
  nine of them, that's a big dig if it was archaeological.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: Well, one of the more recent sightings and these discussions
• 1:26:18
  that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots
• 1:26:20
  and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in
• 1:26:22
  the ocean and that something– literally goes into the water
• 1:26:28
  or something maybe below the surface.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: Of the water. 2004 Tic Tac Nimitz case. So that's
• 1:26:32
  when George Knapp and I broke on the radio twice
• 1:26:34
  before the New York Times. So I know this one
• 1:26:36
  really well. Commander Fravor and those pilots. There was a
• 1:26:40
  disturbance on the surface of the water. Commander Fravor visually
• 1:26:45
  saw what looked like similar to a cross, some object.
• 1:26:48
  So it's like, as if you have some coral under
• 1:26:51
  the water and you've got it's breaking over. Right. The
• 1:26:53
  Tic Tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies. It's
• 1:26:57
  a gravity-propelled system.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: They saw it in the sky before they saw it
• 1:26:59
  in the water, right?
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So there was radar that was picking these things
• 1:27:04
  coming down from 80,000 feet and dropping to 50 feet
• 1:27:06
  in less than a second.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: This is it, Jamie? What is this? This is actually
• 1:27:10
  on the news today. There was a briefing.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people get this confused.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: Not this one then either?
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: No. So that is called the gimbal. So there's three
• 1:27:18
  videos released by the Pentagon that are all actual.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Just play and keep the volume off. Okay.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: I would really just pay attention to the source videos.
• 1:27:26
  So you've got the Tic Tac, which is this object
• 1:27:28
  that Commander Fravor saw. Another pilot filmed it with a
• 1:27:31
  FLIR pod, and it goes, but this one you see
• 1:27:34
  is really important to Bob's story. The gimbal craft, it's
• 1:27:38
  been recently analyzed. It's FLIR. Not only does it, it's
• 1:27:42
  definitive that it's not a conventional anything by its movements,
• 1:27:47
  but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source.
• 1:27:52
  So this object, by the way, sat stationary for days,
• 1:27:56
  if not weeks, it sat stationary.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They found it 11 hours later and they were saying,
• 1:28:00
  there's no way this thing using that kind of energy
• 1:28:03
  to go that fast could just hover.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: The amount of time. And by the way, you're seeing
• 1:28:07
  a very small part of what happened that day. This
• 1:28:10
  object was not alone. And so hopefully that information comes
• 1:28:14
  out and we can, I mean, I wish we had
• 1:28:17
  video of it. I'm sure we'd all want to see it,
• 1:28:19
  but that's called the gimbal. That was East coast. right?
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: 2015.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: West Coast 2004 was the Tic Tac. The disturbance on
• 1:28:28
  the water, Commander Fravor believes there was something under that
• 1:28:31
  water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac
• 1:28:34
  was coming around and doing it. With inside the people
• 1:28:37
  that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac
• 1:28:40
  system was causing the disturbance, but the USO, Unidentified Submerged Object,
• 1:28:46
  that he visually saw, the whole interesting thing about that is,
• 1:28:50
  I would love Bob to describe it, is why it
• 1:28:53
  doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or
• 1:28:57
  or water why doesn't it matter i love when he
• 1:28:59
  talks about this shit.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: Well first of all commander fravor was the f-18 pilot
• 1:29:04
  off the nimitz that was sent out to find out
• 1:29:06
  what this stuff is but uh and it wasn't just
• 1:29:09
  i got a chance to talk to him recently and
• 1:29:12
  it wasn't just a radar image i mean commander fravor
• 1:29:15
  had eyes on it for over five minutes watching this
• 1:29:19
  thing as four other pilots did so this wasn't a
• 1:29:22
  radar blip or anything i mean these guys were watching
• 1:29:25
  this thing but um You know, one of the things
• 1:29:29
  I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft
• 1:29:32
  that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like
• 1:29:39
  a conventional aircraft does. And it doesn't fly like a
• 1:29:42
  flying saucer winner in a 1950s movie. It flies belly first.
• 1:29:47
  I mean, it may set down conventionally, but it always rotates.
• 1:29:52
  It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target.
• 1:29:55
  And then moves away at high speed.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: So it would be like a car flying with the
• 1:29:59
  wheels forward.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. I mean, it may land on the wheels,
• 1:30:03
  but at some point when it wants to leave, it
• 1:30:06
  flips up, points the wheels where it wants to go
• 1:30:08
  and takes off. And the gimbal video, you can see
• 1:30:11
  the craft do the roll maneuver. And it's really interesting.
• 1:30:15
  It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: So... Much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter
• 1:30:22
  jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these
• 1:30:27
  objects that operate under similar principles.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: Right. But they all have the same power source.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: They all have the same power source. And we're also
• 1:30:35
  dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression,
• 1:30:41
  you think of Moore's Law and you think of how
• 1:30:44
  things accelerate. You've got to think that if this civilization
• 1:30:49
  is who knows how many years more advanced than we are,
• 1:30:52
  if not even years. I mean we're thinking about it
• 1:30:55
  in terms of conventional terms, right, the way we look
• 1:30:57
  at the world. I mean they might be just superior
• 1:31:02
  in terms of their intellect. They've got to be. Maybe.
• 1:31:05
  We don't know, right?
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 3: Well, the only reason I say that is because, look,
• 1:31:11
  everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine, and go
• 1:31:15
  to an internal combustion engine, and then electric power, nuclear power,
• 1:31:19
  and go up the ladder that we came in. If
• 1:31:24
  this stuff is true about the origin and the binary
• 1:31:26
  star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have,
• 1:31:30
  and this element, stable element 115, is a naturally occurring material,
• 1:31:34
  maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with. And
• 1:31:38
  the version of their steam engine, their first product was
• 1:31:41
  something that, operated like this. And actually, when they came
• 1:31:44
  to Earth to look around or whatever, they were amazed
• 1:31:48
  at the stuff we were doing. These guys burned stuff
• 1:31:50
  and squirted out the back to go forward. So who
• 1:31:54
  says they follow any kind of normal progression like that?
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: My thought was if you went back to the 1400s
• 1:32:01
  and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not
• 1:32:04
  going to see that much of a difference technologically. If
• 1:32:07
  you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume there's going
• 1:32:11
  to be a radical change, right?
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: Well, the, yeah, the Delta, the rate of change is,
• 1:32:16
  is magnificently higher than it used to be.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: Right. So if you think about what they had in
• 1:32:23
  1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019,
• 1:32:29
  just logically seems like they would advance.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: I would think so.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: The only question is like, are they living? Is that
• 1:32:39
  a living thing in terms of like a biological thing
• 1:32:42
  or are they some sort of an artificially created creation
• 1:32:46
  like we are working on right now? I mean we're
• 1:32:48
  in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings,
• 1:32:52
  sentient beings, artificial intelligence. There's silicon-based life forms that they're
• 1:32:57
  essentially trying to create. Boston Dynamics– Was it Boss Dynamics
• 1:33:00
  at the company?
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: You can make machines out of flesh, right? So a
• 1:33:05
  cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, you know,
• 1:33:08
  that's what a lot of people think those like gray
• 1:33:10
  things are, you know, that people call the grays.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: It's like they were like their machines printed from flesh.
• 1:33:16
  So what you're saying is like not so far off.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: Well, they could just be synthetic life. They don't even
• 1:33:21
  need to be.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: You know, machines.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: Well, they seem to have no sex organs. The way
• 1:33:25
  they're described by people that have had interactions with them,
• 1:33:27
  assuming these people aren't liars or crazy or whatever. Right.
• 1:33:31
  They have no sex organs and that they don't seem
• 1:33:35
  to have any muscle. They're just almost like a frame.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: And they have enormous heads. I mean if you look
• 1:33:41
  at Australopithecus or depictions of ancient hominids and then you
• 1:33:47
  go to human beings. One of the things you see
• 1:33:49
  is bigger heads and weaker bodies.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: Well, you see a clear progression of evolution, too, where
• 1:33:54
  something like that, I would lean towards synthetic organism because
• 1:33:58
  it looks like it was made for a specific task.
• 1:34:01
  There's no reproductive organs. So, I mean, that almost kind
• 1:34:04
  of leaves out any kind of physical evolution.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, that's also our bottleneck, right? Our bottleneck is
• 1:34:10
  our biological imperative, the need to breed emotions, fear, anxiety,
• 1:34:16
  all these different things. That exist in order to force
• 1:34:20
  us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's essentially
• 1:34:23
  what it is. Human reward systems that aren't necessary once
• 1:34:27
  they can figure out a way to make some sort
• 1:34:29
  of sentient artificial life. Some sort of thing that doesn't
• 1:34:33
  have these biological limitations that we have.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have
• 1:34:37
  been reported because it was confusing. I always thought of
• 1:34:39
  flying saucers when I heard Bob Lazar talk about flying saucer, right?
• 1:34:43
  But if you look back in history, people have always
• 1:34:45
  reported the weirdest shapes. Like none of them are alike.
• 1:34:49
  You know, there are the saucers, but you got cigar shaped.
• 1:34:51
  You got, you know, the top hat shaped. You have orbs. Why?
• 1:34:55
  Maybe they're serving different purposes. They're doing different things like
• 1:34:58
  we'd use different tools. And I want to be clear.
• 1:35:01
  The reason I know that memo is real is because
• 1:35:03
  I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell,
• 1:35:06
  six man to walk on the moon. Last guy to
• 1:35:08
  film him before he died, right? That's how I know
• 1:35:11
  I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from
• 1:35:13
  anywhere else. I know because of Dr. Mitchell. And he
• 1:35:15
  said the same thing. Maybe these things are performing different tasks.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: Well, they seem– if you think about what an alien
• 1:35:24
  is in terms of our– the sort of iconic image
• 1:35:27
  of an alien, like the Steven Spielberg, Closing Cows are
• 1:35:30
  the third kind alien. They seem like what we'd assume
• 1:35:37
  a human being would eventually become.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: And if these things are tiny, human beings are smaller
• 1:35:42
  than they've ever been before. They're weaker than they've ever
• 1:35:44
  been before. And there seems to be a trend in
• 1:35:46
  that direction. And this trend seems to be amplified by
• 1:35:50
  our technological progression. There are a lack of need for
• 1:35:54
  muscle strength and our lack of need for violence. And
• 1:35:57
  we're moving in a society to try to get away
• 1:36:00
  from all the things that we think are abhorrent about
• 1:36:03
  human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have. If
• 1:36:05
  we one day do give birth to some sort of
• 1:36:10
  an artificial being like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the
• 1:36:15
  sex organs of the machine world. You know, that one
• 1:36:19
  day we, okay, I'll buy this. Yeah. McLuhan was brilliant.
• 1:36:22
  And that, that quote has always been one of my
• 1:36:24
  favorites because, okay, what are we doing when we're constantly
• 1:36:27
  technologically innovating? We're constantly looking for faster cars, better computers,
• 1:36:32
  bigger screens, faster cars. More resolution, more pixels, more this,
• 1:36:36
  more that, higher bandwidth, 5G, 10G. What are we doing?
• 1:36:39
  We're moving into this– if you just follow it, objectively
• 1:36:43
  stand back, don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture
• 1:36:46
  to it and look at what it is. We're moving
• 1:36:48
  100 percent towards technological innovation. If you looked at this
• 1:36:54
  species from afar and if you weren't a part of it,
• 1:36:56
  you would say, well, what does this species do? Oh,
• 1:36:58
  they make things. They make things better every year. Beehives
• 1:37:01
  are the same fucking thing that you see 10 years ago.
• 1:37:04
  You go by, you see a beehive. It's amazing. It's cool,
• 1:37:06
  but they're the same fucking thing. They figured out how
• 1:37:08
  to do it. They make a beehive. We don't do that.
• 1:37:11
  We make better things.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: What would you do?
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: Constantly.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 3: And at some point, I think that technology is going
• 1:37:15
  to fuse with us.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: And we're going to become.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: It's already happening. Yeah. Elon Musk talked about it on
• 1:37:20
  my podcast that we are cyborgs. You just carry it
• 1:37:22
  in your pocket. It's a phone. It answers any question
• 1:37:24
  you want. You can talk to it. It will give
• 1:37:26
  you the answers instantaneously. It navigates you. It has all
• 1:37:30
  your phone numbers in it. It has all your contacts.
• 1:37:32
  You can get a hold of people, people listening to
• 1:37:34
  you through it. It's connecting us in ways even involuntarily.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: Haptics, that kind of thing.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also getting on your wrist. How many people
• 1:37:41
  have iWatches, Apple Watches?
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: They put them on their wrist.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: And that's only because we can't integrate them yet. But
• 1:37:46
  you know that point is coming.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: 100%. Yeah. I didn't joke about it last night, but
• 1:37:50
  I have a bit about it that I do, about
• 1:37:52
  the integration between humans and technology.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: What would you do if you were a hyperintelligence, right?
• 1:37:58
  Would you do the work yourself or would you create
• 1:38:00
  some cool things called like humans to do it for you?
• 1:38:03
  Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come
• 1:38:05
  in with machines and do it for you? If you
• 1:38:08
  were a hyperintelligence that has kind of changed like you've described,
• 1:38:11
  you'd probably create workers, right?
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about conspiracy.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: But it is a kind of a conspiracy. I'm asking you. Well,
• 1:38:19
  I mean I don't think it's necessarily that. I mean
• 1:38:22
  you could look at it that way, but that is
• 1:38:24
  the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it. The
• 1:38:26
  way I would look at it is like there's obviously
• 1:38:28
  a progression going on, a biological progression. progression. There's some
• 1:38:31
  sort of an integration with technology. There's some sort of imperative,
• 1:38:35
  this need for technological innovation. It's inescapable. Everyone has it.
• 1:38:39
  And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort
• 1:38:41
  of a strange way because so many people work so
• 1:38:45
  hard to get new things. And like, God, that seems
• 1:38:47
  so illogical and preposterous and it makes people unhappy and
• 1:38:49
  depression is on the rise, but nobody seems to be
• 1:38:51
  able to stop it. Like why is that? Well, maybe
• 1:38:54
  it's because we are the electronic caterpillars that give birth
• 1:38:59
  to the butterfly. Maybe that's what we're doing.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: That could very well be.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: What our job is to do is to make some
• 1:39:05
  sort of a cocoon and we don't even know we're
• 1:39:07
  doing it while we're doing it. Do you think a
• 1:39:09
  caterpillar is– well, hey, caterpillar, what are you doing? Man,
• 1:39:12
  I'm doing my thing. It's my job. I have to
• 1:39:14
  make a cocoon. Then I'm going to become like a butterfly.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 3: This could be a natural part of evolution.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: It could be.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 3: That we're just supposed to do this.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: And make the jump to some sort of mechanized.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, non-biological.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: Have you ever seen an orangutan that is fishing with
• 1:39:28
  a spear? No. They've figured out how to fish with spears.
• 1:39:33
  There's primatologists.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 3: Wait, without somebody showing them how to fish? No.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: They've imitated human beings doing it. And now they do it,
• 1:39:43
  but they do it independently. They're not trained orangutans. They're
• 1:39:46
  wild orangutans. Look at that. There's a wild orangutan.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 3: That's impressive. That's impressive.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Well, there's these primatologists. I guess you would call them primatologists.
• 1:39:56
  That's a term.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 3: That's a great term.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: Biologists. Biologists that believe that monkeys and chimps and some
• 1:40:03
  of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age,
• 1:40:05
  that they've currently entered the Stone Age. Like they're not
• 1:40:09
  staying alive. what they were a hundred thousand years ago
• 1:40:12
  or 500,000 years ago, but they're actively using tools and
• 1:40:15
  they're experimenting with different, different ways to use those tools.
• 1:40:19
  And then they're making tools out of stone. They're making
• 1:40:21
  tools out of sticks and they're, they're using them. Well,
• 1:40:25
  this might just be what happens. This might just be
• 1:40:28
  what happens. I mean, why else? Why are we, why
• 1:40:32
  the fuck are we work so hard? I mean, I,
• 1:40:34
  I was, I was driving to LA this morning and,
• 1:40:36
  I had a doctor's appointment, so I was on the
• 1:40:38
  405 at 8 in the morning. Jesus Christ. This is
• 1:40:41
  so crazy. When you're on the 405 in LA at
• 1:40:44
  8 o'clock in the morning, you see literally a million cars.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, red light.
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: And it's just everywhere you go, it's people. And also,
• 1:40:50
  I'm in a Tesla, so I have it on autopilot.
• 1:40:53
  So I'm there sitting. I'm listening to a podcast. I
• 1:40:55
  barely have my hand on the wheel. I'm not touching shit.
• 1:40:58
  This car is driving me along. I'm not even doing anything.
• 1:41:01
  I'm just hanging out. It's so much less stress, by
• 1:41:04
  the way, to do it that way. So it encourages
• 1:41:06
  you to innovate. It encourages you to embrace this new technology.
• 1:41:11
  I've got this giant screen. It's showing me the navigation
• 1:41:13
  in front of me. Oh, I'll be there five minutes early. Excellent.
• 1:41:17
  And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly. It's Bluetooth streaming
• 1:41:21
  from my phone. And I pulled that podcast, which came
• 1:41:24
  out today, out of the fucking sky. And I'm listening
• 1:41:27
  to it. And I'm all comfortable in my nice little
• 1:41:29
  car just driving on my way to the doctor's office.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: This is irresistible stuff.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's different than your Walkman, you know, back
• 1:41:35
  in the day.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: It is irresistible. It is irresistible.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: It's frighteningly irresistible.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: But is it frightening? I mean, if you were a monkey, right,
• 1:41:41
  if you were an Australopithecus, would you go, man, I
• 1:41:45
  don't want to fucking be a person? I live in
• 1:41:47
  a house that's bullshit. I like just swinging around on trees.
• 1:41:50
  I like running from jaguars. This is life. Guys, life
• 1:41:54
  is running from crocodiles. It's not living in a fucking
• 1:41:56
  suburban community.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 3: No, there's probably some that are like that.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. I think when it comes,
• 1:42:01
  we're going to embrace it. We're going to embrace it
• 1:42:03
  the same way you embrace cell phones, the same way
• 1:42:05
  you embrace television. There's going to be a few holdouts.
• 1:42:08
  I don't even have an email address, man. There's a
• 1:42:11
  few and far between. Good luck with that, fuckface. Go
• 1:42:13
  move to the woods, Ted Kaczynski.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just going to throw Ted Kaczynski in there.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: Ted Kaczynski was right. This is something that I think
• 1:42:19
  about sometimes when I get really high, that Ted Kaczynski
• 1:42:23
  was a part of the Harvard LSD studies. This has
• 1:42:25
  been proven. Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking brain when
• 1:42:29
  he was at Harvard. And then when he went over
• 1:42:31
  to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to
• 1:42:33
  make enough money so that he could Implement this program
• 1:42:36
  and live in the woods and then write his manifesto
• 1:42:39
  and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way.
• 1:42:46
  This is something my friend just called me about. So
• 1:42:49
  there's like this private library and they used to print
• 1:42:52
  people's names whenever they were part of a university. And
• 1:42:55
  he was one of a handful of people that were
• 1:42:57
  expunged from it. I want to jump back to the
• 1:43:00
  one thing, Joe. I want to be very careful with
• 1:43:02
  that word conspiracy theorist. What I was saying to you
• 1:43:06
  was we terraform our earth, right? We terraform. We change
• 1:43:10
  the environment. We do all this innovation. What is stopping
• 1:43:13
  us from thinking that that's not being done? I'm not
• 1:43:16
  saying it is. I'm saying what's stopping us from thinking
• 1:43:18
  that that's being done on a much bigger level, on
• 1:43:21
  a cosmic level?
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: You mean like aliens coming down doing that to humans?
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you that there is something here. There's
• 1:43:27
  a fact. There's something. They're a craft. They're here. They're
• 1:43:31
  not ours. They're here. So the question is, What is
• 1:43:34
  that about? And I'm just looking at what we do
• 1:43:36
  with what you're describing with technology.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's much more likely that the same way
• 1:43:42
  we observe chimps and we observe that they are now
• 1:43:45
  in the Stone Age, that they're observing us and that
• 1:43:47
  they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there is
• 1:43:50
  a there's steps that happen. I mean, Carl Sagan talked
• 1:43:53
  about the different levels of civilization and that, you know,
• 1:43:56
  that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never
• 1:43:59
  going to reach civilization.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: A type one civilization. We're going to stay a type zero.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: Well, we're in this warring, polluting, pillaging civilization. We're awesome.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: Humans are awesome.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: Well, we're awesome in a lot of ways.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: But in that way, we're not.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. We're children that have immense power that we
• 1:44:16
  didn't really– The other thing is you're using the immense
• 1:44:19
  power that other people have created, right? I mean even
• 1:44:22
  when you're driving a car and you're stomping on the
• 1:44:23
  gas like, woo, you didn't invent the fucking engine. You
• 1:44:27
  didn't invent tires. There's all these things that were involved
• 1:44:30
  in the creation of this thing that is really outside
• 1:44:34
  of your grasp of understanding. But yet you have the
• 1:44:38
  ability to use it like a person with a gun.
• 1:44:40
  I'm just going to bang, bang, bang people. You didn't
• 1:44:43
  invent a gun. So without the intellect to craft and
• 1:44:47
  engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to
• 1:44:53
  them because you have paper or you have Bitcoin or
• 1:44:55
  you have whatever the fuck you're using, using a credit card.
• 1:44:57
  Now you have almost no responsibility. You could just flippantly
• 1:45:02
  use these things, which is why we were very childlike
• 1:45:07
  in our actions because we haven't had to earn money.
• 1:45:10
  the responsibility. We haven't had to earn these things that
• 1:45:13
  we've been able to have. And you've only been able
• 1:45:16
  to have them because other people have innovated and spent
• 1:45:20
  ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the
• 1:45:22
  lab to create these things. And then they've all put
• 1:45:25
  them together. And then what's the reason to put them together?
• 1:45:28
  The profit. Well, what's the reason to profit? Well, why
• 1:45:30
  are you doing this? So you can buy more things. Well,
• 1:45:33
  what are we doing? What are we doing? We're making
• 1:45:35
  better things. That's what we do. That's all we do.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 3: That's all we do is make better things.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Why the fuck do we need oil? Why do
• 1:45:40
  we need oil? Why can't we just burn wood and
• 1:45:42
  stay home? Why can't we grow chickens and food in
• 1:45:45
  the backyard? Why can't we do it? Well, we fucking can.
• 1:45:48
  We certainly can. People do do it. But we decide
• 1:45:50
  to make that almost impossible. Our preferred way of living
• 1:45:54
  is to stuff everyone into a very small area where
• 1:45:57
  no one grows anything other than weed. This is what
• 1:45:59
  LA is. LA is 20 million people with hard surfaces,
• 1:46:04
  as many hard surfaces as you can. Boy, if you've
• 1:46:06
  got an acre backyard in LA, holy shit, look at
• 1:46:08
  all that grain. This is amazing. Well, no, that's the
• 1:46:11
  fucking earth coming through this weird sort of creation that
• 1:46:15
  we've put on top of the earth. But the goal
• 1:46:17
  is that like New York City, there's none of it, right?
• 1:46:20
  You've got Central Park and they just got human shit.
• 1:46:23
  You're stacked up. No one's growing anything. And then constant work.
• 1:46:28
  Everyone's up early.
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: Go, go, go.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: Innovate. Progress. Make that money so you can buy more things.
• 1:46:34
  And every year, hey, Apple, where's this fucking new phone?
• 1:46:38
  As if your phone isn't good enough. Your phone's taking
• 1:46:41
  pictures and videos and people are calling you and you've
• 1:46:44
  got applications that tell you which way the wind's blowing.
• 1:46:47
  It's not good enough.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: A blink of an eye. Blink of an eye. It's
• 1:46:50
  all gone, though, that, you know, like 10,000 years and
• 1:46:52
  the Hoover Dam goes or whatever, you know, Mount Rushmore disintegrates.
• 1:46:55
  So it's amazing because we have created that and everything's
• 1:46:59
  trying to spring up through that. We keep it maintenance down.
• 1:47:01
  But we're we're a blink, man. Something hits.
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: But we don't think that way. Well, you know, you
• 1:47:06
  think in terms of your own life, right? You think
• 1:47:08
  in terms of what you want and what you need
• 1:47:10
  right now. You know, it's. We are in many ways
• 1:47:14
  this combination of this weird primitive ape-like thing with the
• 1:47:20
  ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment
• 1:47:24
  that makes us wholly unique. On top of that, with
• 1:47:26
  existential angst and fear. So what do you do with that?
• 1:47:29
  We fucking water it down with antidepressants. Give these fucking
• 1:47:32
  people some shit that keeps them moving. They're worried about
• 1:47:35
  the future. They're trying to figure out what reality is.
• 1:47:38
  You're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spinning 1,000 miles an hour.
• 1:47:41
  hurling through infinity. There's no meaning to this thing. Just
• 1:47:44
  keep making shit, keep making stuff. And then one day
• 1:47:48
  they're going to be able to hit that switch. And
• 1:47:50
  this life will be born out of innovation and thinking
• 1:47:55
  and progress and technology. And more than likely, it's probably
• 1:47:59
  going to be what we're seeing that these things are
• 1:48:02
  that you're, you're, you're observing.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 3: I'm not observing them, but yeah, someone's, are you implying
• 1:48:08
  that they're us?
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think they are us, but I think they
• 1:48:11
  are what happens when things keep going. It's not us,
• 1:48:15
  just like we're not monkeys, right? I'm not a chimp.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, that'd be cool. they're from here is your idea
• 1:48:22
  no no.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: No that this is what happens all over the universe
• 1:48:25
  right yeah totally this is what happened look here's the
• 1:48:28
  thing you know i went to see brian cox's um
• 1:48:31
  he has this amazing live show with robin ince where
• 1:48:35
  they they they have these led screens these huge screens
• 1:48:39
  with high resolution depictions of the cosmos and one of
• 1:48:43
  the most mind-blowing things was he has this large scale
• 1:48:48
  image of the universe and it shows all the individual
• 1:48:51
  galaxies the universe and it just keeps moving through all
• 1:48:54
  these galaxies in three dimensions and it's fucking incredible but
• 1:48:58
  what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it even at
• 1:49:02
  you know i mean you're obviously looking at an incredibly
• 1:49:06
  small depiction of something that's immensely large, like a galaxy
• 1:49:10
  of hundreds of billions of stars. You're seeing it as
• 1:49:12
  this little dot, but this little dot that's flying through space,
• 1:49:17
  surrounded by other little darts with very similarly spaced distances. Yeah.
• 1:49:23
  So Mike, if we see uniformity in that form, in
• 1:49:27
  terms of like the distance between galaxies, like so many
• 1:49:29
  galaxies is so it's so similar. They might vary slightly, but,
• 1:49:33
  And that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right?
• 1:49:36
  But there's so much uniformity. Why would we not assume
• 1:49:39
  that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere and that all
• 1:49:43
  these things that you're seeing that are so similar, you
• 1:49:45
  do see binary star systems. You do see single star systems.
• 1:49:49
  But there's also some speculation that our solar system at
• 1:49:53
  one time was a binary star system, right? I mean
• 1:49:55
  that's one of the speculations about that. that object that
• 1:49:59
  they find outside the Kuiper belt, that the thing is
• 1:50:01
  10 times larger than earth. They think it might've been
• 1:50:03
  at one point in time, a star, but this, this
• 1:50:06
  uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that,
• 1:50:09
  that has its same implications biologically, that there's some sort
• 1:50:13
  of a biological uniformity and that this happens given the
• 1:50:17
  right sets of circumstances.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: You should tell them some of the stuff that you've
• 1:50:21
  read that you don't know is true. I mean, if
• 1:50:24
  the stuff was true about the, Propulsion stuff, I mean, anyway.
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: Well, what have you read?
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: What you saw, too.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about? Spill the beans, Bob.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: I've got to poke the bear here.
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: Get some more liquor in you.
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, again, the only thing I could verify
• 1:50:47
  was what I had my hands on. There was talk
• 1:50:52
  of weapon systems. There were different projects written. project galileo
• 1:50:56
  project sidekick was supposed to be weapon applications of the
• 1:50:59
  craft um project looking glass had to do with time
• 1:51:03
  any effects of time in the craft now i don't
• 1:51:06
  think we're not talking about making a time machine like
• 1:51:09
  in science fiction but we're talking about you know small
• 1:51:12
  distortions intentional distortions of time and how that can be
• 1:51:17
  used you know as a uh Not as a– well,
• 1:51:21
  it was part of a weapon program.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: How were you informed in this?
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: These, again, were just the small briefings that I read. But, again,
• 1:51:28
  I don't really like to talk about those because I
• 1:51:30
  don't have any information on them and it was just,
• 1:51:32
  you know, small briefings.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: But you told Commander Fravor that what he saw might
• 1:51:36
  have been a time dilation and not.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 3: Well, it could be because gravity affects time, you know,
• 1:51:42
  space time. I'm sure you've heard of that. And, you know,
• 1:51:46
  what– What Commander Fravor saw as he was in the
• 1:51:50
  F-18 approaching it, he described it as a ping-pong ball
• 1:51:55
  in a cup and shaking it back and forth. It
• 1:51:57
  was moving that fast. Now, obviously, if there's anything inside there,
• 1:52:02
  it's going to be battered to hell. But my point
• 1:52:05
  was that, well, one of two things. Either there's a
• 1:52:09
  gravitational envelope in there which negates any inertia effects, or
• 1:52:15
  you are seeing through a gravity distortion field. So, you know,
• 1:52:20
  just like you're looking at a hot highway and you see,
• 1:52:24
  you know, an optical distortion going through there. Well, the
• 1:52:27
  same thing happens in gravity and the craft may not
• 1:52:30
  actually be moving like that. It may just look like
• 1:52:32
  it because you're seeing, you can only see it through
• 1:52:36
  the field. So it may be making much more gentle moves.
• 1:52:40
  I'm not saying that's it, but it has to be
• 1:52:42
  one of the two.
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: And the thing shows up 60 miles away. They noticed
• 1:52:47
  it on radar 60 seconds after it left Commander Fravor.
• 1:52:52
  But it was at his cap point, which is the
• 1:52:53
  next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away.
• 1:52:57
  And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends
• 1:53:02
  up there.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: So it's going a mile a second. No.
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: I think the radar just picked it up in 60 seconds.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it could have been there instantly.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know. Nobody knows. That's the whole thing.
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, so it cycles, like radar cycles?
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't sweep, but I mean, it scans. It's
• 1:53:21
  a planar array, so it just scans around at random places.
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 2: That's the spy one. It doesn't do the whole loop anymore.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 3: Right. The point is, though, that the craft moved to
• 1:53:34
  his next location before he knew where his next location
• 1:53:38
  was going to be.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: Jesus.
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 3: And that's I mean, that's well documented. So that's a
• 1:53:46
  pretty shocking piece of information.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: What's fascinating to me, too, is that you were discussing
• 1:53:51
  the way this reactor worked and that these things were
• 1:53:56
  not really connected.
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 3: No, nothing is connected. There's no wiring at all.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: That freaks me the fuck out.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: Charge your iPhone, you know.
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: Well, wireless. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a simple electromagnetic– yeah, I know again,
• 1:54:14
  but that's just simple electromagnetic induction.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: Right, but I mean Tesla, the scientist, had this concept.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 3: Of– Right, that's what I'm talking about.
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: I mean for other people that don't know what you're saying,
• 1:54:24
  he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky and
• 1:54:27
  Westinghouse was like, get the fuck out of here with that.
• 1:54:30
  Like when anybody could just pull electricity out of the sky?
• 1:54:32
  Can't meter it.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they couldn't meter it.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: We had this talk in the car ride over trying
• 1:54:36
  to chill him out. We're talking about Tesla and how
• 1:54:38
  he couldn't be metered and how it all went down.
• 1:54:40
  So it's funny you bring it up.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, who knows what would have happened in
• 1:54:46
  terms of innovation had he been allowed to go forward
• 1:54:48
  with that.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 3: Well, we probably wouldn't have computers.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: You think?
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm pretty positive. I mean, forget about microelectronics. Well,
• 1:54:57
  this is dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air.
• 1:55:01
  And yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on our lights,
• 1:55:04
  but there'd be no radio communication. The interference would be
• 1:55:08
  something we could, would be overwhelming. It would induce electric
• 1:55:12
  currents in anything with a small wire on it. So
• 1:55:15
  integrated circuits, transistors would be disintegrated before they were even,
• 1:55:19
  you know, tested for operation. So, It would destroy.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe it would have fucked us up.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 3: It would have stopped us dead. We'd have, it'd be great.
• 1:55:27
  You can turn lighters on and heaters from all over
• 1:55:29
  the place with no wires, but it would stop modern electronics.
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: And if we became dependent on it, it would almost
• 1:55:35
  be like our dependence on fossil fuels. Although it's destructive,
• 1:55:38
  it's very difficult for us to get off the nipple.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: It would have changed the course of how we developed,
• 1:55:43
  which is so interesting when you talk about a civilization
• 1:55:46
  of the star system didn't even start with fossil fuels.
• 1:55:49
  They had 115 naturally on their planet. And they're like, cool,
• 1:55:51
  anti-gravity is pretty awesome.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: Well, the fact that they didn't.
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 3: Have– I think it's important that that actually happened.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: It might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: Whoa. And it's just– I think it's incredibly difficult for
• 1:56:07
  us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than
• 1:56:11
  the one that we've experienced.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's difficult.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: If we imagine what this alien race must have been
• 1:56:18
  like and– I mean, God, just– Just to be able
• 1:56:22
  to see something– I mean obviously we've seen it in
• 1:56:25
  different life forms, right? Like we see the life of
• 1:56:27
  certain beetles in comparison to the life of certain fish. Very,
• 1:56:31
  very different existence, very different life cycles.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: Octopus.
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, octopus. I mean we see all these different variables
• 1:56:38
  in terms of biological entities on earth. But we don't
• 1:56:41
  see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the
• 1:56:44
  only one that's intelligent that can innovate. We have intelligent
• 1:56:48
  creatures but they're in the ocean. The only other thing
• 1:56:50
  that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales.
• 1:56:52
  And they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment.
• 1:56:55
  And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate
• 1:56:58
  their environment, we put them in fish tanks. And we're like,
• 1:57:01
  get in the tank, do some tricks. You're right.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 2: You know, the only thing he saw in the craft,
• 1:57:06
  if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that
• 1:57:09
  he saw in the craft that he related to that
• 1:57:11
  looked like a human could make was this honeycomb hatch.
• 1:57:14
  And I always loved that because you're like, obsessed with
• 1:57:17
  this thing that you could recognize.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I only focus on that because it was the
• 1:57:22
  one thing that I understood how it worked.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 3: And it was the access to the level below. And
• 1:57:29
  it was, well, you know, if you take, you have
• 1:57:34
  a six pack of beer and you take out the
• 1:57:36
  cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put
• 1:57:39
  a lot of pressure on the top. But if you
• 1:57:43
  push it from the sides, it collapses flat. so it
• 1:57:46
  was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was
• 1:57:49
  essentially some sort of sheet metal and you could walk
• 1:57:53
  on that in the upper layer but if you took
• 1:57:55
  the corner stuck your finger finger in and pushed it
• 1:57:57
  collapsed and made a an entryway so i thought that
• 1:58:01
  was a really unique i'd never seen that before and
• 1:58:04
  it was the only thing in the craft that made
• 1:58:06
  absolute sense to me i said ah we can make
• 1:58:08
  that and all that is is a hatchway.
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: Was there any discussion about the materials that were used
• 1:58:14
  to make the craft?
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: I'm sure there was, but that was the metallurgy division.
• 1:58:18
  It had nothing to do with us.
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: So you never got a hint?
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 3: Not even the slightest briefing. I don't even know if
• 1:58:24
  it was metal or it was ceramic. I think there's
• 1:58:27
  a fine line between the two.
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: Now, one of the things that's happened to you that
• 1:58:33
  has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been
• 1:58:37
  some sort of an effort to erase your past. Yeah.
• 1:58:41
  Some sort of an effort to erase your education history,
• 1:58:45
  your employment history at Los Alamos. In fact, the only
• 1:58:49
  way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos was
• 1:58:51
  someone got a list, a directory of the employees from
• 1:58:54
  the past. And read into it, and you were on
• 1:58:57
  that list. So it proved that you worked there even
• 1:58:59
  though people were trying to deny it, and they were
• 1:59:00
  trying to use that as a way to discredit you,
• 1:59:02
  that you never did work at Los Alamos. You weren't
• 1:59:04
  really a scientist. What was that like to experience? I mean,
• 1:59:08
  of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when
• 1:59:12
  you could get away with something like that.
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: Obviously, there were a lot less records on computers at
• 1:59:20
  that time. It was still file cabinets and folders. Yeah. But, yeah,
• 1:59:24
  that was frightening. That was one of the first things
• 1:59:29
  I saw. I think George Knapp was the first one
• 1:59:31
  that uncovered that. I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: It disappeared? Yeah. There was no record of you being born?
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was no record of that.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: His mom tells me about that. Like, it was frightening
• 1:59:44
  for her. He's got a real family. He's a real person.
• 1:59:48
  It was frightening for her.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: But the Los Alamos thing really surprised me. And that
• 1:59:53
  they were so adamant that, no, this guy never worked here.
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: Don't be ridiculous.
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 3: And George went back and forth, you know.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: For– I got the letters on the wall, yeah.
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: For months.
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was ridiculous. But fortunately, somebody came up
• 2:00:05
  with a 1982 phone book directory. I mean, and also,
• 2:00:10
  originally I told you– You know, when I worked there,
• 2:00:14
  I was on the front page of the paper. So
• 2:00:16
  they were still able to archive, you know, bring that
• 2:00:19
  back from the archives. And, you know, Bob Lazar, a
• 2:00:21
  physicist working here at Los Alamos. So there was at
• 2:00:24
  least something there. But somehow George came up with the
• 2:00:28
  phone directory.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: And then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: So we flew out there and I said, look, come
• 2:00:37
  on in. I'll show you where I worked.
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: We'll go in.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 3: We'll meet people. And George went with me and, you know,
• 2:00:42
  filmed inside there.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: And you knew how to navigate the place.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. And, you know, met people, you know.
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: Los Alamos was also the place where they had the
• 2:00:50
  machine that was able to read the size of your digits.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: That was S4.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 3: That was S4. And explain that.
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: So.
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 3: Now, this was back in the 80s.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: And this was back in the 80s where when you
• 2:01:04
  discussed this, people were like, this doesn't even exist. Yeah.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 3: It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint
• 2:01:11
  scanners and, you know, anything of any high-resolution scanner at
• 2:01:17
  that time. So what it was was a device that
• 2:01:21
  had a little picture of a hand on a glass
• 2:01:22
  plate with pins in it so you could jam your
• 2:01:25
  hand in there. And there was a bright light above
• 2:01:28
  it and a sensor underneath. And when you put your
• 2:01:31
  hand in there, the light would turn on and it
• 2:01:33
  would measure the bones in your finger because the light
• 2:01:36
  shone through your bones. And apparently, the length of the
• 2:01:42
  bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure.
• 2:01:46
  And they use that. When you put your hands on there,
• 2:01:49
  the light would turn on and your badge would pop out. Oh,
• 2:01:52
  there it is. That's it. And I tried to describe
• 2:01:54
  this to people and they said, that is the most
• 2:01:57
  ridiculous thing we've ever heard. And I said, hey, my
• 2:02:02
  badge came out of that thing. I put my hand
• 2:02:04
  on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could
• 2:02:06
  open the doors and get into S4.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: And everybody discredited that. They said it was bullshit. It
• 2:02:12
  was science fiction. And Jeremy, you found this.
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 2: I found it through a good friend of mine named
• 2:02:18
  Tyler Rogoway, and he had some good sources inside of
• 2:02:20
  Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth
• 2:02:24
  program right around that time. So now I've got all
• 2:02:26
  these people that worked within who said, only if you're
• 2:02:30
  in certain programs would we use this technology. It was
• 2:02:32
  kind of shit, actually. They didn't keep it for very long,
• 2:02:34
  beginning of biometrics. So I was able to reveal it
• 2:02:37
  in my film. I kept my mouth shut. Until I
• 2:02:39
  showed it to Bob, you know, in the movie. It
• 2:02:41
  was the first time he saw it was how you
• 2:02:43
  see it in the documentary. That's his genuine reaction. I'm
• 2:02:46
  getting goosebumps.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: That was a great idea, the way you did it.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you, man, because you know what? Guess what? I'm
• 2:02:50
  actually trying to see if he's telling the truth. That's
• 2:02:52
  how I started. You know, that's how I started. So
• 2:02:54
  it was really cool to see that and that you
• 2:02:56
  get to see it, his actual reaction.
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 1: Has that been verified by other people? Yeah.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: So, yeah. So to me, it has personally. I get
• 2:03:05
  emails every day and people are telling me where these
• 2:03:07
  are used and how they're used in the semi photos.
• 2:03:09
  I got a lot of photos of identity mats now.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: Well, how they were used, right? They're not, how they
• 2:03:13
  were used, but.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't, the most recent one was way
• 2:03:17
  more recent than I thought in another country. But yeah,
• 2:03:19
  that technology was used. So what's so funny is that
• 2:03:25
  this technology, even in the area of 52, where they'd
• 2:03:28
  use them for Tonopah, one of the guys who will
• 2:03:30
  go on camera with me, he will do an interview
• 2:03:32
  with me. He was a technician for one of these,
• 2:03:35
  and he hated them because they were really bad. They
• 2:03:38
  always broke down and never– and he was a technician
• 2:03:40
  for them. Now, he won't tell me where. He worked
• 2:03:43
  at Area 52, so it was probably Tonopah. It's very
• 2:03:46
  separated even on base, but yeah.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: So there was that. Yeah. There is your education record.
• 2:03:54
  That was also– like what happened with that?
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 3: Well, that disappeared also. I've never gone– I've never gone
• 2:04:04
  anywhere for education. I've never gone– I never attended any
• 2:04:07
  classes at Caltech. I never attended anything at MIT.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: You did attend classes in those places.
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 3: I did attend classes in those places.
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: Do you know anybody that you went to school with? Yes,
• 2:04:18
  I do. And have they verified that they went to
• 2:04:20
  school with you?
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 3: Well, I gave Jeremy some names. But, yeah, the reason
• 2:04:25
  I don't say these names publicly is because every single
• 2:04:29
  time I mention a name, somebody gets in trouble.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: They don't want to be. Of course.
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: But what is that experience like, seeing your birth certificate erased,
• 2:04:41
  seeing your employment history? Well, it's frightening.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 3: It's frightening. It's absolutely frightening.
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: But it's also the fuel that the debunkers use, the so-called,
• 2:04:48
  air quote, skeptics. I don't like the term skeptics. I'm
• 2:04:51
  going to say this publicly because I really have only
• 2:04:53
  said this privately. I think it's a sloppy, lazy way
• 2:04:56
  to look at things, to just be a skeptic. I
• 2:05:00
  want people to be objective. And I think there's a
• 2:05:03
  lot of things you should be skeptical of. I think
• 2:05:06
  you should look at things and look at things– From
• 2:05:11
  a hardline science perspective, you should be objective. But the
• 2:05:15
  idea of skeptics, the problem with that is you're always
• 2:05:17
  looking for things to be bullshit.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's dangerous because I think some things
• 2:05:22
  aren't bullshit.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: It's confirmation bias on the other end.
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 2: You're just deciding to take a square thing and put
• 2:05:26
  it in a round hole no matter what.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: And I find a lot of them to be lazy.
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 1: A lot of them to be lazy thinkers.
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going, hmm.
• 2:05:36
  Instead of just separating their ego, they're playing a game.
• 2:05:40
  And the game is calling bullshit. I want to call bullshit,
• 2:05:43
  and I'm going to line up all these reasons why
• 2:05:45
  it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might
• 2:05:47
  be contrary to that definition.
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that does happen.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: Every time I'm thinking I'm going to catch him in something,
• 2:05:52
  you know, all along this process, I found Dr. Krangel.
• 2:05:55
  He came forward and said, I was in security briefings
• 2:05:57
  with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Alamos. He went
• 2:06:00
  on the record with me. Now, the other people I
• 2:06:02
  talked with, why won't they go on the record with me?
• 2:06:04
  Because they're still working there. So that's the difference, right?
• 2:06:08
  What can the public have, right?
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: Or even if they're not working there, they want to
• 2:06:12
  live their lives. I mean obviously people have seen what's
• 2:06:15
  happened to you.
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 2: Mike Thigpen after 30 years.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, really. I found him.
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 3: It can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore. It's really
• 2:06:31
  way past that point. I mean, Mike Thigpen is, I mean,
• 2:06:35
  how could I possibly know?
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: So Mike Thigpen was the guy that did the security
• 2:06:42
  clearances to go to the, one of the guys that
• 2:06:45
  was used.
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: And this is the guy that you work with.
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: He said he did.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: And George Knapp, you know, George didn't believe him. George
• 2:06:51
  put him through four polygraph tests, right? He tried to see, man,
• 2:06:55
  this is a big risk. It sounds interesting, but let's
• 2:06:58
  see if he's telling the truth. One of the things
• 2:07:00
  was Bob said there was a guy named Mike Thigpen.
• 2:07:03
  He did security clearances for the base. And that's a
• 2:07:05
  weird name. It's very specific. For 30 years, George found
• 2:07:10
  this guy in this weird department that he didn't even know.
• 2:07:12
  It was Mike Thigpen. The guy wouldn't talk to me,
• 2:07:15
  ghosted him, totally ghosted him for 30 years. Used Facebook
• 2:07:18
  and Google Image Match through his children. I was able
• 2:07:20
  to find him after 30 years. And I talked to
• 2:07:23
  him three times on the phone. He lives on the
• 2:07:25
  East Coast. He almost went on camera with me. Confirmed
• 2:07:28
  that he did security clearances for the base in 1989.
• 2:07:31
  Confirmed he remembers Bob Lazar. And what you don't know
• 2:07:35
  is there's a handwritten note that a friend of yours
• 2:07:37
  has from Mike.
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 3: What?
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: I know. I'm going to give it to you later.
• 2:07:41
  But that is real. That is actual.
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: A handwritten note that says what?
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 3: This is new to me. So when you're... When they
• 2:07:50
  do security clearances, they go through all your friends and family.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: And they go to your friends and family, yeah. So
• 2:07:55
  this is to Bob. I had people come to me
• 2:07:58
  for a friend of mine that served. and they're doing
• 2:08:00
  a security clearance for him. And even though I'm like
• 2:08:03
  the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI will
• 2:08:05
  come and visit my house and make sure that they
• 2:08:07
  talk about my friend. And they lift a little card.
• 2:08:11
  And when my wife told him to get away, because
• 2:08:12
  he didn't know who they were, they left a little card.
• 2:08:14
  It's super cute now. Back then it was a handwritten note,
• 2:08:17
  and his friend has it for him that you haven't
• 2:08:19
  seen in Oh my God. Two decades. So if you're listening,
• 2:08:23
  I don't know.
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 1: Why I'm telling you this card.
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 2: It's just a little handwritten note with Mike Thigpen signature.
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 1: Card, like a, like a, like a postcard, like a.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 2: Piece of paper that he left on the door saying
• 2:08:35
  when Bob gets back or whatever it says on it.
• 2:08:38
  So it's just another little funny thing. I found the guy,
• 2:08:40
  he does the security clearances. He admitted to me, he
• 2:08:42
  did it. And he admitted to me, he was dodging
• 2:08:44
  George Knapp because when George said his name on the,
• 2:08:47
  on the, On the news, he dropped his fork into
• 2:08:50
  his steak or into his potatoes or whatever, and he's
• 2:08:52
  looking at his wife. He was in trouble. His name's
• 2:08:54
  never supposed to be out there. Like, it's just a
• 2:08:56
  security clearance guy. But you don't want national attention associated
• 2:09:00
  with anything Bob has to say. But anyway, this unique
• 2:09:03
  name Bob said for 30 years, and the guy ghosted
• 2:09:06
  George Knapp. George could prove he existed. He actually talked
• 2:09:09
  to me, man. He talked to me three times. He
• 2:09:11
  almost went on camera with me. It's just crazy. What
• 2:09:14
  happens after 30 years? You just get more info.
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and
• 2:09:20
  me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on
• 2:09:24
  the phone, I said, I think what we can do
• 2:09:28
  with this podcast is important. I really do. I think
• 2:09:33
  it's important for people to hear this from you in
• 2:09:36
  a very clear, just very concise way. And if you
• 2:09:44
  examine all the information that you've said today, if you
• 2:09:48
  look at all the things that the detractors have said,
• 2:09:50
  if you look at all of the new recent evidence
• 2:09:53
  that's coming out and all these really high-level people in
• 2:09:58
  the military and the government that are discussing this, it
• 2:10:02
  gives you far more credibility. than you would have had
• 2:10:07
  in the 1980s when this came out.
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: Fuck yes. You can't ignore his story just because you
• 2:10:12
  don't like it anymore.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 1: That's why I thought it was important that you come
• 2:10:15
  out and refresh the world's memory and let people know.
• 2:10:19
  And like I said, I've been, I don't want to
• 2:10:20
  say I'm a fan of yours, but I guess I'm
• 2:10:22
  a fan of yours. As a human being, I'm a
• 2:10:24
  fan of yours. But I've been following you for decades.
• 2:10:27
  I've been following the story for decades.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 3: No kidding.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: I have VHS tapes at home.
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: Bob, like a lot of the world has? Yeah. It's crazy.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: Well, anybody that has any sort of a vested interest
• 2:10:38
  or just a, even a, just a fascination with UFOs
• 2:10:43
  has followed your story because there's no one else. There's
• 2:10:48
  no one else that comes forward. There's some, guy who
• 2:10:50
  said i worked underground with the aliens they shot my
• 2:10:52
  hand off like there's a bunch.
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 4: Of like wacky dudes they're underground there's bases they're shooting
• 2:10:56
  lasers through the earth's crust and they move them at
• 2:10:58
  light speed there's a lot of those guys they seem
• 2:11:01
  schizophrenic they seem crazy they might even be disinformation agents
• 2:11:04
  they might be people that are designed to muddy the
• 2:11:07
  waters which for sure has happened people.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: Are coming forward though now it's amazing by doing this
• 2:11:12
  what you're doing you're providing an opportunity just for bob
• 2:11:15
  to tell his story you know believe it or not
• 2:11:17
  he can tell his story it's amazing because More people
• 2:11:20
  will come forward now that are involved with these projects.
• 2:11:24
  They'll come forward to you, to me. They're coming forward.
• 2:11:27
  And so what you've done here is provide that opportunity
• 2:11:29
  if they need it. And it's amazing. I just want
• 2:11:31
  to say, Bob.
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 3: Just don't come forward to me.
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 2: No, don't come forward to Bob. Why were you freaking
• 2:11:38
  nauseous at the beginning of this, like? so upset. Why
• 2:11:42
  was your, why'd you have a migraine? Cause that started
• 2:11:44
  off so hard. My God, I was sitting here like,
• 2:11:45
  did this.
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: Why are you asking him? Why? It's obvious anxiety. The
• 2:11:49
  guy's gone through 30 fucking years of being persecuted. They've
• 2:11:52
  erased his birth certificate. What do you want to hear
• 2:11:54
  from him?
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: I want to hear him say, I want them to
• 2:11:56
  hear him.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 3: Why do I have to say that?
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: You don't. You get it.
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 2: I step out.
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: Settle down. Yeah. Well, I get it. You were, you were,
• 2:12:04
  it was hard for you to get him here, you know,
• 2:12:06
  and I appreciate it.
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 2: It was hard for us. Yeah.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: You, you, Well, you did a lot more than me.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 3: What really annoys me are the people that say, you know,
• 2:12:12
  you guys just came up with the story to make
• 2:12:14
  a bunch of money or get a bunch of, you know, attention.
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. So please explain that.
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 3: First of all, I don't get any money out of
• 2:12:21
  this at all. And I didn't even let you guys
• 2:12:23
  buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything.
• 2:12:26
  I mean, any time, like when Jeremy pre-previewed, I guess,
• 2:12:32
  the movie up in Michigan and I mean, it brought
• 2:12:35
  in like a couple thousand dollars. I made sure that $ 2, 000
• 2:12:38
  went to science programs at the local high schools there.
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 2: It's like dirty money. He doesn't want to touch it.
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 3: I don't take any money from this stuff. And as
• 2:12:46
  far as attention, I hate fucking attention. I don't like
• 2:12:52
  being on shows. I just want to kind of hide
• 2:12:54
  in the corner and do my own thing. So I
• 2:12:56
  got enough hugs when I was a kid, okay? I
• 2:12:59
  don't need any attention.
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: So.
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 3: No, if you think somehow we came up with this thing,
• 2:13:05
  then you've got to tell me why we did it.
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 1: Well, you've done a great job of making sure you
• 2:13:10
  have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't
• 2:13:13
  profited off of this. And like you said, that you
• 2:13:14
  have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs.
• 2:13:18
  I mean, it doesn't make any sense any other way.
• 2:13:22
  I mean, what I've gotten out of here is what
• 2:13:26
  I thought I was going to get out of here
• 2:13:28
  when I watched the documentary, that you– What you're saying
• 2:13:30
  makes sense. It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit.
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 3: That happened exactly like I said it did, Joe.
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 1: I believe you. In closing, is there anything else you'd
• 2:13:40
  like to say?
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 3: No, I can't think of anything other than really don't
• 2:13:45
  come and try to visit me.
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal
• 2:13:52
  cost to get this information out. And, I mean, maybe
• 2:13:56
  you didn't understand what that cost would have been when
• 2:13:58
  you first initially– came forward with a story. But over
• 2:14:01
  the past 30 years, it's been immense. It's been great.
• 2:14:04
  And I just want to thank you for that. And
• 2:14:06
  thank you for all these people that would not have
• 2:14:09
  gotten this information and would not have really had this
• 2:14:12
  story any other way.
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, thanks, Joe.
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you. And thank you, Jeremy. And one more time,
• 2:14:17
  the documentary is available on Netflix right now.
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called Bob Lazar, Area 51, and Flying Saucers.
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 1: All right. That's it, folks. Good night.
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 3: Thank you.