Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Why does Gen Z think we Millennials are CRINGE? With Dr. Carolina Are

Transcript

Why does Gen Z think we Millennials are CRINGE? With Dr. Carolina Are · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:04
Dr. Carolina Are is an innovation fellow and
0:07
a social media researcher at Northumbria University
0:09
Center for Digital Citizens. Dr. Are, welcome
0:13
to the program. Thank you for having me. Really
0:16
nice to meet you. And you can call me Carolina.
0:18
It's less of a mouthful. Yes, I was hoping you'd
0:21
say that. Carolina, I wrote to you. What was
0:25
it? I think it was last week because I read an
0:27
absolutely scandalous article in The Guardian,
0:30
an article I obviously took very personally.
0:33
You are, of course, heavily featured in it, luckily
0:35
providing some much -needed relief for my sore,
0:39
burning wounds after I read that piece. Our listeners
0:42
might be wondering, what the hell am I talking
0:45
about? And I'm talking about a piece with the
0:47
following title, Cringe? How Millennials Became
0:51
Uncool. Ouch. Now, it's important to add that
0:55
this isn't the author's opinion. In fact, as
0:57
a millennial herself, I think she's sort of grappling
1:00
with this perception, as I hope we will. during
1:02
this conversation. Full disclosure, obviously
1:05
I am a cart -carrying millennial myself, and
1:09
one that refuses to be deemed completely washed
1:12
or discarded to the rubbish heap of uncool history.
1:16
But before we talk about this predominantly digital
1:20
beef between zoomers and millennials, I wanted
1:23
to put my skeptic hat on just a little bit and
1:27
ask something much more I suppose, elementary.
1:31
Do you think that grouping people by generations
1:34
like this makes sense in the first place? Because
1:37
part of me thinks, yeah, of course it does. Members
1:39
of a particular generation grew up through the
1:42
same times together, which must mean something,
1:45
right? But another part of me thinks that maybe
1:47
other categories such as, I don't know, top of
1:51
the hat, nationality, political leanings, gender
1:54
might be just as valid, if not more valid. For
1:57
example, a Zoomer, let's say, born to an aristocratic
2:00
family in England is going to have a completely
2:03
different upbringing and then indeed life than
2:06
a kid born to parents in Norilsk, Russia, where
2:10
everyone is a minor and life expectancy is 55
2:13
years old. I was wondering what your take on
2:16
that was. I should probably start by saying that
2:19
I'm also a millennial myself. So when it comes
2:22
to maybe like research rigor, I think some people
2:26
would like to add limitations to their study
2:29
and say. we should probably flag that the author
2:32
is from X and Y demographic. This is my positionality.
2:36
So I should say that I am a millennial woman
2:38
born in 1992. So maybe there is a bit of bias
2:43
there. But I kind of agree with you in the sense
2:46
that while I do think that actually generation
2:50
can be a defining factor, particularly when you're
2:54
talking about use of technology. There are a
2:57
lot of other things happening there and a lot
2:59
of other things at play, such as gender, nationality,
3:03
as you said, political leaning, sexual orientation,
3:06
and also just in general, life experiences and
3:09
the way you were brought up. Because I would
3:12
say I am a millennial, but apart from the fact
3:15
that I am cool. if I do say so myself. Also,
3:19
because of the type of work that I do, both as
3:21
a researcher and as a content creator, I do have
3:24
to keep my finger on the pulse of like tech trends.
3:28
So I've been told, for instance, that some of
3:31
the things that millennials do online that are
3:33
uncool, like the millennial pause, which is that
3:36
pause that you do before you record something.
3:38
I've been told that I don't do that that much
3:41
from Gen Z people. So maybe. I don't know. I'm
3:45
one of the cool kids. Like, I feel like, you
3:47
know, the Steve Buscemi meme, like how you do
3:49
fellow kids. Like, this is how I feel. But yeah,
3:53
like there are loads of factors at play there.
3:56
And the grouping people by generations makes
3:59
sense in terms of the things that we've gone
4:01
through. This is why it kind of didn't make it
4:04
into the article fully. But something that I
4:06
do talk about is how as millennials, we're very
4:10
tired and we're tired because we live through
4:13
a gazillion financial crashes. inhabit incredibly
4:19
unprecedented times to the point that every time
4:23
I see the can we go back to precedented times
4:25
meme, I feel very seen. So I think, again, that
4:30
makes more sense because maybe someone from Generation
4:32
X or boomers didn't live through things in the
4:36
same way that we did, because maybe they didn't
4:39
experience the same precarity, the same expectation
4:43
in the workplace, for instance, of being always
4:45
on. So I think it makes sense when it comes to
4:48
life experiences, maybe use of technology, understanding
4:51
of trends. But as you say, there are so many
4:53
other factors at play that it is a bit reductive
4:56
to just make it about the generations. All right.
4:58
So the gist of the Gardner article is that Gen
5:01
Z thinks we millennials have now basically become
5:04
profoundly uncool somehow. You believe that's
5:08
because of the different ways we exist online.
5:11
You started to talk about that a little bit already.
5:14
Could you tell us a bit more about this kind
5:15
of existential digital divide? between the generations
5:19
yeah i mean i think something that i find really
5:22
interesting is that the majority of the content
5:24
that i've seen about or the the majority of the
5:27
discussions that i've seen about millennials
5:28
being uncool has been online and has been created
5:32
by gen z creators or gen z users or in a self
5:38
-deprecating way by millennials kind of responding
5:41
to that which is kind of what the article was
5:44
about and um and i have a lot of gen z friends
5:47
And, like, I think, like, I've been roasted a
5:50
few times maybe because of the way I like to
5:53
take boomerangs when I go out for drinks. And
5:55
they were like, oh, my God, millennial moment.
5:57
And I was like, wait a minute. Sorry, I didn't
6:01
catch that. Why were they roasting you? oh because
6:05
um of the way i like to take boomerangs when
6:08
i go out for drinks you know like you know the
6:11
um kind of gif moment of like glasses clinking
6:15
together and then i'm so millennial i didn't
6:19
even understand that so maybe maybe it's a different
6:23
phase of millennialism and it's a very kind of
6:26
like content creator heavy kind of millennial
6:29
vibe i don't know But yeah, I've been roasted
6:32
by them a few times. But to be honest, it was
6:34
quite benevolent. While online, there's a lot
6:37
of different types of content, roasting millennials
6:39
and making us self -conscious about different
6:41
things. So yeah, I would say... you know if you
6:45
think about generations roasting each other that's
6:47
really nothing new like you know our parents
6:50
criticize us or our grandparents criticized our
6:53
parents for like different reasons this is something
6:55
that has always happened um and and vice versa
6:59
we would criticize them for things that they
7:02
do that are uncool um but i think like the generational
7:06
beef has been kept offline largely and you know
7:12
I think even in the press, like what I remember
7:15
is like boomers roasting millennials because,
7:19
you know, of our avocado on toast and Netflix
7:22
subscriptions making us unable to buy houses.
7:24
So I think it's only natural then that when you
7:27
have generations that are very online, like millennials,
7:31
because we were the first digital natives and
7:34
adopters and then. Gen Z who are fully born into
7:37
an online world then obviously you see these
7:41
clashes playing out not so much anymore on newspaper
7:44
column inches but on content creator platforms
7:47
and I think the reason why a lot of what I said
7:54
in the article about the differences between
7:56
millennials and Gen Z revolves around aesthetics
8:01
and behaviors because I think There's something
8:05
that is typically millennial in the way that
8:08
we behave online, because when we came of age
8:11
and platforms were suddenly a thing, it seemed
8:14
to be a world of opportunity, right? Like we
8:17
could use platforms to create portfolios, to
8:20
start businesses. A lot of us were the first
8:23
content creators and bloggers. And on top of
8:27
that, platforms were a more hopeful place back
8:31
then because it was a way to connect. Yeah, it
8:34
was a way to connect with and keep in touch with
8:36
people that were in other places in the world.
8:39
You know, I remember the Arab Spring. MySpace
8:43
was so innocent. You could customize it and everything.
8:45
I miss those days. I miss those days. And it
8:49
was a way of like showing your personality. Yes,
8:51
in a performative way. With your mates, almost
8:55
like, and even, you know, MSN messenger, like
8:58
all of those platforms were about crafting an
9:01
identity, but in a much more lo -fi way than
9:04
when we see now. Yeah, I know. Good. Those were
9:08
the days. it wasn't as heavily curated. But even
9:13
if you think about Facebook and Twitter, like
9:15
when the Arab Spring happened, people were like,
9:18
wow, these platforms can start revolutions. And
9:21
obviously platforms rode the wave of that and
9:23
they loved it and they made it. And they made
9:27
a huge chunk of their marketing that they could
9:30
help people free themselves and and realize their
9:34
full potential. So I think there is part of a
9:37
hopefulness in our like there's part of that
9:40
hopefulness in that use that we as millennials
9:43
make of platforms still. But there is also an
9:46
element of that hope being crushed where we are
9:51
both like. reluctant to let go of some of that
9:54
use and of being very online and of posting absolutely
9:57
everything and then slightly curating that experience
10:01
to look more put together. But at the same time,
10:05
there's a hopelessness when we're like, yeah,
10:07
everything we thought about platforms is not
10:09
true because of Elon and blah, you know, while
10:14
I think Gen Z. They have a humor that is a lot
10:18
more meta. Meta, not the platform, but like meta,
10:22
the behavior where you need to be very online
10:25
to understand the meaning of those memes. But
10:28
at the same time, they don't post as much. And
10:31
their aesthetics are more about, you know, goblin
10:35
mode, not being so heavily curated because they
10:38
deeply resent, for instance, the polished version
10:41
of the Instagram aesthetic that we as millennials
10:44
have created. But what I argued in the article
10:47
is that you may create a messy and more real
10:50
aesthetic, but it's still an aesthetic because
10:53
if you are mediating yourself through a platform,
10:55
it's still a performance of sorts. So, yeah,
10:59
I think like those are some of the key differences
11:01
that I discuss in the article that are very much
11:04
informed by the times that we've all lived through.
11:08
And we're tired. Do you know what I mean? Like,
11:10
I think a lot of millennials, like I personally
11:13
had to keep up with trends, but a lot of millennials
11:15
don't have the time or the interest to do that
11:18
anymore because some of them are starting families.
11:20
A lot of us are burnt out by all the crisis that
11:23
we're facing. And like learning how to be good
11:25
at TikTok is maybe just not our priority. Sorry,
11:29
I just remembered how you said that. It might
11:31
be just a generational thing. And I remember
11:34
how when boomers were putting us on blast. because
11:37
of avocado toast or whatever we we just had that
11:40
joker card we we could just say okay boomer we
11:43
were kind of we created this teflon around us
11:46
you know yeah i guess the wheel turns I suppose.
11:50
The wheel always turns. Everything comes back
11:53
to bite you in the ass because life is just like
11:55
that. But I think what's interesting is that
11:58
an older generation criticizing a younger one,
12:01
again, is nothing new. It's kind of like, oh,
12:04
you know, where have our morals gone kind of
12:07
thing. And it's very easy to be snarky about
12:10
it and to just be like, okay, boomer, you know.
12:12
But I think when suddenly after... Being the
12:16
cool kids, suddenly people remove your cool factor.
12:22
It's very triggering. It's kind of like, wait,
12:24
I'm young. I'm still young. How dare you? Exactly.
12:31
I totally still feel this way, by the way. Okay,
12:33
if we're being a bit more specific, the list
12:35
of kind of millennial offenses to Zoomer sensibilities
12:38
is pretty long these days. I researched it and
12:41
it goes from stuff like skinny jeans, no go,
12:44
obviously. Tucking in shirts, selfie techniques,
12:47
apparently you're supposed to use the back camera
12:49
now, not the front, overuse of certain emojis,
12:53
and the dreaded millennial pause, like you said,
12:56
the brief moment of silence at the start of the
12:58
video, there to see if the device is in fact
13:01
recording or not, which can look a bit silly.
13:04
Some of these are clearly internet related, but
13:06
some, like what not to wear, skinny jeans, I
13:10
don't know, are not. So can't we just chalk everything
13:13
up? to just different aesthetic preferences at
13:16
the end of the day? I feel like the whole not
13:20
following trends is still a trend. You know,
13:22
I remember I was a teenage metalhead and I made
13:25
a point out of not being girly, out of not following
13:31
fashion and wearing whatever you could find in
13:34
a shop window. But that was still a trend. Like
13:37
it's still an aesthetic. So what I would say,
13:41
apart from an aesthetic, is maybe a way of being
13:43
where it's kind of a rejection of polish and
13:47
a rejection of rules, which maybe I think like
13:53
for millennials, we were kind of on the cusp
13:56
of rejecting them. There's a lot of us that became
14:00
digital nomads or, you know, decided to start
14:03
our own businesses and whatever, which is something
14:05
that you can easily do when you're young and
14:07
you're not, you know, you're not starting a family.
14:10
So that is one thing. But also in general, we
14:13
still had to deal. with a lot of boomer workplaces
14:17
where, yes, we wanted our little corner, but
14:22
at the same time, we still had to cope with the
14:24
fact that our bosses were still that age. So
14:26
we needed to kind of find a halfway house. While
14:30
now millennials are finding themselves being
14:32
bosses and we've all gone through the pandemic,
14:35
which has been like a massive shakeup. of the
14:37
working environment so i think gen z's are also
14:41
a bit more reluctant to do things by the book
14:44
because of that because a lot of them came of
14:46
age during the pandemic but i think what's really
14:49
interesting when it comes to fashion and aesthetics
14:51
like that i actually dispute don't get me wrong
14:54
i don't love skinny jeans but um um gen z are
14:59
bringing back Same. I mean, again, I was a teenage
15:04
metalhead. But basically, Gen Z are bringing
15:09
back a lot of the 90s and even worse Y2K trends
15:14
that we used to wear when we were growing up.
15:17
And some of those are god awful. Like, please
15:19
keep low rise jeans in the bin. So I'm kind of
15:23
like, who's really that uncool if you're bringing
15:26
those back? Because we were wearing those. So
15:29
all of these things are quite cyclical. And if
15:32
anything, I would say that I'm struggling to
15:35
see something new. I'm struggling to see, the
15:38
70s had punk, the 80s had glam, the 90s had grunge,
15:44
and then Y2K was just like a puddle of everything.
15:47
But I'm struggling to see something that I'm
15:50
like, oh, that's too 2010 or that is so 2020.
15:55
If anything, I'm struggling with that. I'm quite
15:58
curious of the fact that you can't say, oh, that
16:01
is a very Gen Z aesthetic. yet apart from goblin
16:05
mode and stuff like that okay we i'm sorry we
16:07
gotta talk about that what what's goblin mode
16:10
a friend of mine in fact a patron of this podcast
16:12
recently said that he's going goblin mode on
16:15
x twitter whatever and i just thought that he
16:18
meant that he's gonna start behaving rather poorly
16:21
there kind of not holding himself back literally
16:24
behaving like a sort of goblin or something but
16:27
now i'm thinking i might be wrong and i just
16:29
don't get it I mean, is your friend a millennial?
16:33
Is he misusing goblin mode as a trend? I don't
16:39
know. He's a millennial like me. But I think
16:42
he has a lot of adversaries, political adversaries
16:45
on Twitter, on X. And that's what he meant, that
16:48
he was going to be dealing with them. as a sort
16:51
of a goblin. But please, you tell me what that
16:53
is, because I'm confused. Basically, the term
16:56
refers, this is from a Guardian article, because
16:59
it was the word of the year from Oxford, from
17:03
the Oxford Dictionary in 2022. So the term refers
17:07
to a type of behavior which is unapologetically
17:10
self -indulgent, lazy, slovenly, or greedy, typically
17:14
in a way that rejects social norms or expectations.
17:18
And a lot of what I've seen when it comes to
17:21
the use of goblin mode is essentially like unpolished
17:25
aesthetics, you know, just staying in bed and
17:29
like basically looking a bit disheveled, which
17:33
I actually kind of love. Like sometimes I need
17:36
goblin mode because a lot of my life is quite
17:38
polished. And sometimes I'm just like, no, I
17:40
just need to be a goblin. But what's really interesting
17:45
is the emergence of that, because I think. You
17:48
know, as I said, a lot of the Instagram aesthetic,
17:50
particularly for millennials, particularly around
17:53
2016, was so polished, you know, specific hues
17:57
of colors, millennial pink, everything looking
18:00
super edited and stuff. And I can see how young
18:04
people could suffer from that because it's quite
18:07
an unattainable aesthetic of having to look that
18:10
perfect. So I like goblin mode as a rejection
18:13
of beauty standards and of a specific aesthetic.
18:16
But again, it's still an aesthetic. I am still
18:21
yet to see someone posting goblin mode and not
18:26
still looking a bit cute or endearing. So yeah,
18:30
I don't know if your friend is misusing the word
18:33
or if he's being very self -indulgent. Millennial
18:36
appropriation of Gen Z terms, using it in a completely
18:40
wrong way. So what you're saying is like... Concepts
18:44
such as like gobbling mode is a sort of a revolt
18:46
against this polished aesthetics that we millennials
18:51
have propped up online. I didn't even know that
18:55
we're such a polished generation. That's news
18:57
to me. I mean, I think like the social media
19:01
life of millennials has gone from... unintentional
19:05
goblin mode to a very aesthetically pleasing
19:09
look. Like, I mean, do you remember when Facebook
19:12
happened and like you could just make, I don't
19:15
know, albums of like 30 pictures and it'd be
19:18
like of, I don't know, bins or like the things
19:21
you see on a night out. And it was completely
19:23
unpolished. But then I think when Instagram took
19:27
over. Even if people were not influencers, I
19:31
think a lot of people still behave like influencers.
19:35
So I don't know, like, I feel like the influencer
19:37
aesthetic is kind of creeping into everyday lives.
19:42
And actually, my colleague, Dr. Sophie Bishop,
19:45
wrote a brilliant article about that called Influencer
19:48
Creep and how practices of influencing are creeping
19:51
into not just everyday life, but in particular
19:56
in the workplace where we all have to create
19:58
content to kind of be seen and market ourselves
20:01
in a very precarious economy. And I think this
20:04
is where then. a lot of millennials became polished
20:07
because if you remember there was a time where
20:10
everybody was panicking about oh my god will
20:13
my employer find my messy pictures online so
20:17
i think i think a lot of people are trying to
20:19
mediate their persona and their social media
20:23
with that in mind still and i think uh gen z
20:28
are a lot less worried about that because i think
20:32
in in fairness millennials did pave the way with
20:35
social media behaviors um so i think there's
20:39
a lot of um rejection of that polish that we
20:43
then had to embrace for a variety of reasons
20:46
and also just because we wanted to be on trend
20:50
so if you noticed like you know a lot of the
20:52
selfie behavior criticism is that we you know
20:56
we want it to be polished we pose in a specific
20:59
way um so yeah like we don't speak to camera
21:03
as much like our our our persona is very much
21:07
mediated through the picture as opposed as opposed
21:11
to the video which is more of a tiktok aesthetic
21:14
that gen z's have embraced more wow so kind of
21:17
like images versus video never thought of that
21:20
before but it doesn't make sense i think there's
21:21
a lot of that yeah i think there's a lot of images
21:24
versus video and again we are generalizing here
21:27
because personally as a millennial i use video
21:30
a lot um because that's just part of my practice
21:33
um and like of the content that i post um but
21:37
yeah i think there's a lot of that and i think
21:40
A huge part of the differences as well, and this
21:43
is what I find when I speak to users, is that
21:47
users are tired of the speed with which new platforms
21:51
are kind of rising and falling. And a lot of
21:55
millennials are very tired of having to keep
21:57
up. And at the same time, a lot of Gen Zs are
22:01
pretty crushed by... this constant need to mediate
22:05
everything and it's quite interesting to see
22:08
a lot of gen z's saying actually we want to stay
22:11
offline or like we want to get a dumb phone as
22:13
opposed to a smartphone because the damages of
22:16
a very online life are now being seen but again
22:20
when you're explaining I have a thought. Again,
22:23
it's kind of cyclical. You know, you said like
22:25
when Facebook first came up, we had like pictures
22:28
of bins and stuff, just really like trashy, literally
22:31
trashy stuff that we saw around us. And then
22:34
the Polish thing, and now we're kind of back
22:36
to the trashy thing again, right? So again, nothing
22:39
new, but this sort of like a cyclical thing reappearing
22:43
again. In a way, I think so. And I think, yeah,
22:47
a cyclical thing reappearing, I think also something
22:51
to do with the times, right? Because I think
22:53
before, like pre 2016, there was definitely more
22:57
of a hopefulness in the world, not because horrible
23:01
things were happening. But I feel like 2016 with
23:05
Brexit and Trump. we've seen a complete change
23:08
of the way that platforms can be used. And it's
23:10
basically been getting worse since then. So I
23:15
don't know, Western society seems to be in its
23:17
flop era. So it's quite interesting to then see
23:20
a lot of content kind of, again, indulging in
23:25
the lack of polish and in the kindness to oneself
23:28
and in stopping to feed the machine which i think
23:33
to be honest gen z are a lot more mindful of
23:36
in certain circles like i think like gen z and
23:40
again generalizing here but gen z women are very
23:42
politically active and then if you look at the
23:45
voting um for trump in the us a lot of people
23:50
that voted for them were gen z young men uh so
23:55
Yeah, there's a bit of decadence in society in
23:59
general that I think is mirrored through those
24:02
trends as well. Interesting. I also thought,
24:05
is it maybe that Zoomers are simply also more
24:08
technically proficient in social media use since
24:10
they grew up kind of with it? I mean, I got my
24:12
first phone when I was 15 and the only thing
24:14
I could do with it was call and call quickly
24:17
because calling was expensive or send a really
24:19
short text for... For years, the screen of the
24:21
phone literally accommodated one line of text.
24:24
So no wonder my selfies now are a bit more rusty
24:26
than the selfies of someone who's been snapping
24:29
them since they were four years old or something.
24:33
Yeah, there's that. I feel like digital adoption
24:36
happens a lot sooner for Gen Z. And again...
24:42
So my expertise actually, rather than it being
24:45
like generational behaviors, is actually the
24:48
use of platforms, how people use platforms, how
24:51
platforms affect people, and how platforms are
24:54
governed. So I think something that is happening
24:56
and that is increasingly interesting to me is
24:59
that we are now interrogating the making of platforms,
25:02
their design, how addictive they are. And again,
25:06
it makes me wonder, like, these kids are growing
25:09
up with platforms and with... apps and phones
25:12
since a very very young age to the point where
25:15
their parents sometimes just give it to them
25:18
because it's the thing to do everybody else has
25:21
them um and it's also a very easy way of keeping
25:24
them entertained but now we are catching up with
25:26
that and we are seeing the damage of that uh
25:29
which again is why this um this kind of like
25:33
food really interests me because I wonder if
25:38
it's almost like an uproar from Gen Z being like,
25:41
all of these things that you believe in, like,
25:44
or that you thought you believed in, they're
25:46
actually quite harmful. And they have been for
25:48
us growing up. So it's deeply uncool that you
25:52
care about being online so much and that you're
25:54
not disconnected. Oh, wow. Okay. By the way,
25:58
you're a social media researcher. So your finger,
26:00
like you said, is on the pulse. of these sort
26:02
of changing attitudes, in this case on millennials.
26:07
When would you say the scales kind of started
26:09
tipping against our favor here in the realm of
26:12
coolness and why? And we poor millennials began
26:16
to be considered much more uncool than before.
26:19
I can't pinpoint a specific time, but I think
26:23
like the... end of the lockdowns has been a critical
26:28
moment I think because I think like that's when
26:33
a lot of millennials suddenly became adults I
26:36
think like to be honest I'm not an adult I'm
26:39
still 16 in my head but a lot of great but yeah
26:44
like I think a lot of millennials when the by
26:46
the time the pandemic ended a lot of millennials
26:49
were cohabiting with their partners in serious
26:52
relationships they'd had a baby or two and like
26:57
maybe you know either they had a stable job or
27:00
they were in the process of getting one or a
27:02
mortgage and I think that's when a lot of people
27:06
kind of decided to maybe disconnect from the
27:08
trends because a lot of the pandemic was about
27:11
staying online because that was the only way
27:13
to stay connected to the rest of the world and
27:15
that's kind of when tick tock became huge and
27:18
stuff like that um but i think probably like
27:22
there like a lot of people's lives shifted after
27:25
the pandemic And obviously with Gen Z being younger,
27:28
some of them being at university, some of them
27:30
just hitting the job market and coming out and
27:33
like working again. I think that's probably when
27:36
the divide started a little bit because our lives
27:39
started really diverging. And then maybe, you
27:42
know, millennials found themselves going out
27:44
and adopting those behaviors that were now deeply
27:48
uncool. And Gen Z started noticing like now that
27:52
as soon as life started opening up again. gen
27:55
z started noticing that we did things because
27:58
we haven't kept up um but i don't know i don't
28:02
have that many millennial friends who are just
28:03
like buying houses and like having their life
28:06
completely in order and just wherever i look
28:09
around me just one big shit show in my generation
28:12
you know um like you said a lot of people are
28:15
tired a lot of people are burnt out a lot of
28:16
people feel hopeless not a lot of like joy Definitely
28:21
not a stream of constant parades and having it
28:24
amazing for ourselves out there. I don't know.
28:28
So I kind of don't understand if this is indeed
28:31
envy from Gen Z. Where is it coming from? I think
28:35
it is envy, to be honest. I think it's more,
28:38
yeah, it's just a different life stage. And I
28:42
think because we haven't kept up and we are the
28:46
easiest target because we are still online, we
28:49
still behave like that, we are still visible.
28:51
I think it's quite easy to be like, well, actually,
28:54
yeah, we don't do it like that. But I don't think
28:57
it's necessarily envy at all. And yeah, you're
29:00
right. Like not a lot of millennials now can
29:02
afford to buy houses. But I think a lot of millennials
29:06
lives really shifted at the end of the pandemic,
29:08
definitely in the UK and definitely in London.
29:11
Like I think a lot of people moved out of London
29:14
because they realized that having a house was
29:17
important to them. And they couldn't afford it
29:20
in the capital. So they stopped doing, you know,
29:22
they stopped being 365 party girls and they started
29:27
doing other stuff. But yeah, like I really don't
29:31
think it's envy, actually. I think it's just
29:34
more noticing something and just being like,
29:38
yeah, we don't do it like that. Okay, there's
29:40
a lot of talk of cringe in this article and in
29:46
this discourse about... millennials by cringe
29:49
what exactly do we mean now i have to be careful
29:50
because i already misunderstood goblin mode uh
29:53
so i have to ask all of these like pretty basic
29:57
words uh by cringe what do we mean or what do
30:00
what do zoomers mean i think they mean and now
30:03
i'm just gonna be canceled by zoomers and it's
30:05
worth it like a typical old millennial behavior
30:08
um but yeah like i don't know it's when something
30:12
that someone does makes you go like a bit that's
30:14
what i thought okay You know, like it's a bit
30:18
embarrassing that people would behave in like
30:20
a specific way. Right. And yeah, like it's almost
30:25
when you get the ick about someone, but you get
30:29
it because of a generational thing. When I was
30:31
growing up, we had some sort of like cringe limit
30:34
that we tried to hit, like making people cringe
30:36
more was kind of cool for us. So I'm sort of
30:40
wondering if it's like the opposite now. with
30:43
with gen z that they're really really sensitive
30:45
to any sort of moment of cringe that it's really
30:49
undesirable in any circumstance i think there's
30:52
a struggle of being perceived as cringe um and
30:55
i get it well not just as cringe of being perceived
30:59
full stop like in general because I think like
31:02
the challenge of the online world that now is
31:06
part of our working lives and our personal lives
31:08
and our entertainment is that you can go viral
31:12
overnight like you can be heavily perceived you
31:15
can have an audience that you didn't think you'd
31:18
have and I've had that like during the pandemic
31:21
or just at the end of it my TikTok went massively
31:24
viral and I woke up like to one million views
31:28
overnight and i was like what i did get something
31:30
out of it for a while i was getting brand partnerships
31:32
and then like some stuff but now i'm heavily
31:35
shadowbound because of what i post so uh nobody
31:38
cares i'm for people that don't follow me i'm
31:41
a pole dance performer and obviously platforms
31:43
don't like it because boobs are scary when somebody
31:47
think of the children but yeah That's another
31:50
aspect of platforms that I don't love, the censorship.
31:53
So basically, it's quite scary to be perceived
31:56
all of a sudden because you have an audience
31:59
and you have to act in a different way. And I
32:03
think a lot of Gen Zs are very aware of the audience
32:08
and the visibility. So you have to be careful
32:11
about cringe in particular, right? Yeah. Yeah,
32:16
well, cringe in particular, but also getting
32:18
canceled, like adopting wrong political behaviors.
32:23
And I think something that we notice, for instance,
32:26
in our community, in the pole dance world, is
32:30
that People hold each other up to a huge, like
32:33
a very high standard. And I noticed some millennials
32:37
being like, if I see someone behaving in a problematic
32:40
way, I will send them a direct message and be
32:42
like, hey, like, actually, that was not cool.
32:44
But what a lot of younger pole dancers do is
32:48
that they will screenshot it and then just like
32:51
cancel them publicly. So again, it's a fine line.
32:55
It's a fine line that a lot of... People are
32:59
like treading with their online behavior, with
33:02
their feeling perceived. And then all of a sudden,
33:05
a lot of people will have behaviors online that
33:07
are like a bit of a persona. But then offline,
33:10
they become really shy because, you know, their
33:13
their persona is larger than life. It's almost
33:17
like an alter ego, a performer identity. But
33:20
then there is that struggle of being perceived
33:23
offline and of being. Yeah, constantly kind of
33:27
being under a microscope. So you have to be calculating
33:29
with your every move. Sounds like a massive headache,
33:32
to be honest. It is. And I think, you know, nobody
33:36
is trained for that. And particularly like younger
33:39
people, like imagine just like growing up in
33:43
that public eye and under that scrutiny, like
33:47
something that I am quite grateful when it comes
33:49
to our generation is that when we grew up, popularity
33:53
wasn't quantifiable. And now it kind of is, you
33:57
know, you literally have numbers of followers
33:59
and views. But also in general, it's very easy
34:04
to film somebody and, you know, put their stuff
34:08
everywhere. So, again, I understand why Gen Z's
34:13
cringe about our online behavior, because it's
34:16
like, do you not know? the harms surrounding
34:21
all of this and i think we do but i think i don't
34:24
know i wonder if we're in denial and we're still
34:26
stuck with our you know hopeful social media
34:32
behavior of the olden days with full knowledge
34:36
that actually things are going pretty bad if
34:39
we flip the tables of this kind of generational
34:42
online warfare a little bit some of my fellow
34:45
millennials that i talk to seem to have their
34:47
own A bit unflattering take on Gen Z, namely
34:51
that they're sort of insular and odd, totally
34:54
addicted to screens and somewhat lazy, I've heard.
34:58
So what are some of the challenges you would
35:00
say that zoomers are dealing with that the rest
35:02
of us were spared? Well, I think like we are
35:06
a bit addicted to screens ourselves, but we didn't
35:10
grow up with them. And I feel like there's not
35:13
enough, there haven't been enough studies on
35:17
the behavior modification of using apps and social
35:22
media platforms and phones. And when those will
35:26
start being published, I'm really curious to
35:30
see the outcomes of those because I'm not surprised.
35:33
Do you know what I mean? Again, if what connects
35:37
you to other people is in there, you are going
35:40
to make use of that. And I think it does suck
35:45
out a lot of time out of your life. I notice
35:48
when I use platforms more. Sometimes that could
35:53
be doom scrolling and an hour has gone by. So
35:55
if that is all you know, and nobody has educated
36:02
you about digital literacy because schools are
36:05
so far behind with that because boomers are in
36:08
government and they're way further behind on
36:11
that, then of course you're going to appear lazy
36:16
and you're going to work less because your time
36:19
is sucked out. And I don't know, like I find
36:23
that something that I really struggle with in
36:26
the discourse surrounding technology is that
36:29
individuals are often blamed. And don't get me
36:32
wrong, if you go and abuse people online, yes,
36:34
you as an individual, that's your fault. But
36:36
I find it really striking in my field when then,
36:40
you know, we're talking about regulation for
36:42
platforms. always regulate the user. This is
36:46
what you as a user shouldn't do. You shouldn't
36:48
do X, Y, Z. But when we're talking about platform
36:51
regulation, there isn't enough talk about making
36:54
platforms transparent about the running of their
36:57
processes, of their algorithms, their earnings,
37:00
all the things that they don't tell us about.
37:02
And it seems like a game of whack -a -mole where
37:05
governments are trying to sort the latest trendy
37:08
online harm issue, but not... the system of platforms
37:13
and how they run and the fact that they can create
37:16
incredibly addictive designs without anybody
37:20
saying anything about it and and you know that
37:23
has an impact on the generations that we are
37:26
raising and it has an impact not just in terms
37:29
of you know how much they're using their phones
37:31
it has an impact when it comes to their beliefs
37:35
and and i think we're actually quite unkind to
37:39
younger generations because we're always like,
37:41
oh, you know, these stupid kids. But actually,
37:43
in my research, I found that the biggest believers
37:46
of online conspiracy theories and misinformation
37:48
are actually boomers. So our, you know, generations
37:52
that are not digital natives and they don't know
37:55
how to use phones and they don't, they can't
37:58
tell a fabricated item from a real news item,
38:01
while more often than not, young people can.
38:04
And so... I think we need to cut them some slack
38:09
and we need to really investigate the system
38:14
of platforms instead of kind of keeping our feet
38:17
in two shoes and being like, OK, so we really
38:21
want to get rid of the bad platform stuff. But
38:23
at the same time, we want platforms to invest
38:26
in our countries and to, you know, create jobs
38:28
in our countries and stuff like that. Like we
38:30
need to be really serious here and platforms
38:33
and big tech. need to be treated like the business
38:36
that they are um and they do have a civic function
38:40
but at the same time they are really changing
38:44
the fabric of society and we're seeing that in
38:47
our behavior and the behavior yeah poor poor
38:49
boomers i just saw a video recently like an ai
38:54
generated jesus very realistic looking like flying
38:57
around in heaven and having a party and uh a
39:01
comment there with a lot of likes saying like,
39:03
I showed this to my grandma and she thought it's
39:05
real. And I mean, this is not going to get better
39:11
probably, right? With new AI models and stuff
39:13
like this. No. And you see, we all have aunts
39:16
and uncles like on Facebook sharing absolute
39:18
nonsense, AI generated slop and believing it
39:22
and like trying to proselytize it. And it's just
39:25
like, we were living in completely different
39:27
worlds. Seems quite dystopian. We are. And, you
39:31
know, there's a lot of talk of and shitification
39:33
of the Internet, where the Internet is just getting
39:36
flooded with AI crap and all sorts of stuff.
39:40
And I think, you know, a lot of talk surrounding
39:43
digital literacy is about young people and how
39:47
young people should be taught stuff in schools,
39:49
which I believe is right. But first of all, who's
39:51
teaching them? Is it their boomer teachers? Hopefully
39:55
not. And second of all, who's teaching boomers?
39:58
Because boomers still have huge spending power.
40:01
They still have massive voting power. And it's
40:04
quite concerning that they will be making decisions
40:07
about generations to come without really understanding
40:12
the world that we live in, because a lot of that
40:14
world happens online. Like when Brat Summer happened
40:18
and then Kamala Harris started using that in
40:23
her campaign, I had to explain to my parents
40:26
what Brat was. I mean, I had to look it up. And
40:30
I'm, you know, I wasn't even 40 then. Wait, don't
40:35
you live in Berlin? i i i do i do but berlin
40:39
is more techno you know yeah but i feel like
40:41
uh i feel like brat has an element of that as
40:43
an as an aesthetic you know i don't know but
40:46
yeah i'm just i'm getting old fair enough uh
40:49
but uh no i don't know like i i just it was so
40:53
funny because i was just like okay so brat like
40:56
how do we do this and like it just came to a
40:59
point where i was like you guys are just not
41:01
as online as i am like there there are so many
41:04
more memes that you need to see before you realize
41:07
what this means so yeah there's an element of
41:10
that where you know people need to be really
41:14
online to understand things and obviously a lot
41:17
of boomers are not and in a way that kind of
41:20
cuts them off from public discourse. And I'm
41:23
not saying that you need to be super online to
41:25
understand the world, but it is quite concerning
41:27
when a lot of online trends and beliefs and information
41:30
runs in circles online to the point where we
41:35
don't know where it comes from. We don't know
41:37
how it got there. And then it influences political
41:40
decisions. You know, like the digital literacy
41:44
aspect needs to stop being focused on young people
41:47
alone. I just thought of something you said that,
41:50
you know, Gen Z realized that a lot of this online
41:53
stuff is harmful because they grew up with it.
41:55
Do you think that then they have more sympathy
41:57
for like boomers because boomers are not spending
42:00
much time online that they do towards us millennials?
42:03
Oh, I don't know. Actually, to be honest, I haven't
42:06
seen any Gen Z person talking about. They don't
42:09
even care about Boomer. Okay, Boomer in the way
42:11
that we do. But yeah, I mean, I haven't had this
42:15
conversation. I wonder if they're so far removed
42:18
from them. I actually haven't thought of that.
42:21
Something that's really interesting and missing
42:23
from this scenario and the article is Gen X.
42:26
How are they getting away scot -free? Are they
42:30
the ultimate cool generation? This is something
42:33
that's really interesting to me. Although my
42:35
ex was a Gen Xer. And it was quite interesting
42:40
to have conversations like having to explain
42:42
online trends to him. I remember. One of my favorite
42:47
things was I was walking in a park in Hackney
42:51
and I was like, oh, I just saw FKA Twigs, the
42:54
singer. And he was like, what's... I know her.
42:57
Yay. Okay, good. He was like, what's an FKA Twig?
43:02
But yeah, like, I don't know. I just feel like
43:05
Gen Xers are getting away with that because they
43:07
feel like they were online, but not as online
43:09
as we are. what were they even famous for gen
43:12
x they're so sort of mysterious like i don't
43:14
know what sort of concepts or trends or aesthetics
43:18
are they associated i don't know like what what
43:20
comes to mind is like brettie senelius um sam
43:24
grant ah yes i see like i see i see yeah yeah
43:28
yeah we said that before but to be fair the world
43:31
that zoomers grew up in seems much more joyless
43:34
than the one we grew up in. I think like the
43:36
90s or like beginning of 2000s are quickly becoming
43:40
universally recognized as what people call peak
43:43
civilization, kind of like a sort of more innocent
43:46
pre -internet era or innocent internet era where
43:50
some of the best music movies and other pop culture
43:53
products were born even as someone from the balkans
43:56
originally uh and we literally lived through
43:59
a war in the early 90s i totally still remember
44:02
that decade super fondly and gen z have totally
44:06
missed all that and were flung directly into
44:09
the world of like algorithms and selfies and
44:12
the pressure of social media and stuff so in
44:15
that way i do feel kind of bad for them yeah
44:18
me too because again um I think also a lot of
44:23
these people were really robbed of maybe like
44:26
their late teens or early twenties because of
44:29
the pandemic. And I vividly remember, like I
44:33
was, I was finishing my PhD. And so I, the last
44:38
year of my PhD was basically all online, but
44:41
I was just imagining, I was teaching undergrads
44:45
back then. And I'm like, you know, they've missed
44:47
their first year. They've missed their second
44:49
year. And then. I remember when we then went
44:52
back to the classroom, they were just unable
44:56
to exist normally. Like I vividly remember this
44:59
girl picking up a phone call in class and I was
45:02
like, do you mind taking it outside? And she
45:04
was like, but it's important. And I was like,
45:06
I'm not telling you not to take it. I'm just
45:09
telling you not to take it while I'm speaking.
45:11
Another person like speaking on the phone under
45:14
the table while I was speaking, I was just like,
45:17
what is happening? But again, like it feels like,
45:20
they almost missed that transition from high
45:23
school into like early adulthood. So yeah, like
45:28
they've just, you know, we, I feel like, yeah,
45:30
we remember a bit of joy and then the crisis
45:33
started while for them they were, they were born
45:36
into them. So it's been really, really hard.
45:39
They have been robbed of those years in which
45:43
you could essentially form yourself. when the
45:47
world was less scary. But I think also, you know,
45:50
they are a lot more conscious for some other
45:54
things. A lot of them don't drink, for instance,
45:56
which I find quite interesting. I used to teach
46:01
when I used to teach my criminology class and
46:03
I was talking about the nighttime economy. It
46:05
was such a nightmare because I'd be like, yeah,
46:08
so, you know, pubs and they'd be like, we don't
46:10
go to pubs. We don't drink. And I was just like,
46:12
I'm just trying to make a connection here. What
46:15
do I do? So, yeah, I don't know. Like there are
46:20
a lot of points of divergence there as much as
46:24
there are points of connection. But I think.
46:28
I always bring it back to the times we lived
46:30
through, the technologies we use, and how we
46:33
use them, because a lot of that has shaped us.
46:36
More than saying Gen Z, millennials, for the
46:39
simple name, but more because of the things we've
46:44
been through. There's another kind of sad thing
46:47
that I couldn't help but notice. I watched a
46:49
couple of TED Talks, TED videos about Gen Z,
46:51
and nearly all of them say that the best thing
46:53
about Gen Z... is how entrepreneurial they are
46:57
24 -7 and that we should take advantage of this
47:00
fact. Kind of sinister. In one of the older talks
47:04
that I watched, the speaker said sort of proudly
47:07
how amazed she was when she recently met a four
47:10
-year -old who was already running her own business.
47:14
Now, as a bit of an Eastern European commie,
47:17
I find this to be quite nightmarish. I played
47:20
with other kids outside until dark every day.
47:23
you know until i was a teenager and then these
47:25
kids were kind of expected to raise venture capital
47:29
for their startups or something you know It is
47:31
really sinister, as you said. And I was just
47:35
watching, there's a Netflix documentary called
47:37
Bad Influence, which to be honest, I think it's
47:39
pretty bad. I didn't enjoy the documentary because
47:42
it's about child influencers and a particular
47:46
child influencer whose mother was apparently
47:49
quite exploitative, not just to her, but of the
47:52
house of creators that she started representing.
47:55
And I feel like it's a very... The way the documentary
47:59
is made blames this parent alone and removes
48:04
responsibility from all the other parents who
48:06
essentially were down for their kids working
48:09
a lot of hours at a really young age for the
48:11
sake of fame. And I think, to be honest, what
48:14
we're seeing with child influencers in general,
48:17
but sorry, with child influencers in particular,
48:19
but in general with a lot of. child entrepreneurs
48:22
and this this whole idea of like entrepreneurship
48:25
um through new media and like at a young age
48:28
in general is that while before you had like
48:32
child celebrities the the notion and availability
48:35
of fame has now become more accessible because
48:39
you don't necessarily need to be an actor you
48:41
could be an influencer you could be a content
48:43
creator and so For parents that really thrive
48:48
off of their children becoming famous and even
48:51
for kids whose life goal is becoming famous,
48:55
then they enter a world where initially it's
49:00
all fun and games and then they don't have the
49:02
control because they're slaves to the algorithm
49:04
and to the entrepreneurship that they've built,
49:07
the enterprise that they've built. So, in a way,
49:12
we are witnessing what maybe we would have witnessed
49:15
in the past with a handful of child stars, but
49:18
now that is being expanded to everyone. And there
49:21
are very few checks and balances to protect those
49:24
people. There is a lot of colleagues of mine
49:27
in the US who are working towards child influencer
49:30
laws. But in general, a lot of this is largely
49:36
unscripted because platforms have grown so fast.
49:40
And we as a society are catching up and laws
49:43
are very much catching up or need to catch up.
49:46
And I think we are, yeah, we are fully unaware
49:49
of how that is changing us. And I'd like to bring
49:53
it back to travel, for instance, in how platforms
49:57
really are shaping life. Because you know how
50:00
a lot of beautiful areas in the world are struggling
50:03
with over tourism and this is because we see
50:07
locations on social media and we all want to
50:09
go there and then you will see the average traveler
50:12
who is not an influencer who is not sponsoring
50:15
anything behave like an influencer to take the
50:20
perfect shot in a specific location to the point
50:23
though that that location is incredibly crowded
50:25
so again loads of behavior modification happening
50:31
there through platforms that are maybe coalescing
50:35
with our desire to be seen and behave in certain
50:39
ways um that are then affecting real life yes
50:46
pardon my french but it's fucking nuts when you
50:49
see like your favorite spot being like blasted
50:52
on instagram by some influencer And you're like,
50:55
OK, I'm just never going to go there anymore.
50:57
Yeah. Because now it has like 10 million likes.
51:00
I already know everybody's going to go there.
51:02
It's just ruined forever. It doesn't exist anymore
51:04
in my imaginary of my favorite things, you know?
51:08
Yeah. And don't get me wrong. Like I've I've
51:11
used platforms for like to find out about travel.
51:15
But then it's quite interesting to hear like
51:18
from locals. I always then ask the locals first.
51:21
But to me, the most striking examples, although,
51:24
you know, I'm Italian, so obviously there's bits
51:26
of Italy that are plagued by over tourism. Same
51:29
with Greece. But as a Londoner, the most striking
51:32
thing was that we have this flower market called
51:36
Columbia Road, not far from where I live in Hackney.
51:39
And every Christmas they did Christmas carols.
51:42
It was absolutely gorgeous. There would be a
51:45
priest, a really young priest from a local parish.
51:48
I'm not. religious, but it was really cute. He
51:50
would come by on a truck and on the back of the
51:54
truck, there would be a piano and he would just
51:57
like ride back and forth singing carols and all
52:00
the locals would be there singing. So since I
52:03
moved to this area in like 2018, I've been doing
52:06
that every year. And then last year, that was
52:08
totally ruined by TikTok because this is a tiny
52:11
street. There were thousands of people to the
52:14
point where there were stampedes, people were
52:17
sheltering. in shops and the the local um the
52:20
town hall had to be like look the council they
52:23
were like we can't do this anymore it's a safety
52:25
hazard so they stopped so tiktok ruined the carols
52:28
for us they ruined christmas fantastic ruining
52:32
christmas i mean how low can you stoop i know
52:35
right by the yeah by the way um coming full circle
52:39
i have to fire my own little rant against zoomers
52:43
uh carolina why are why are they when they're
52:46
making videos all speaking into this tiny microphone
52:50
that they put in front of their face like this
52:52
like they're shy about showing us their teeth
52:54
or like they don't know that the phone already
52:56
has a microphone drives me nuts like what is
52:59
that can you can you break that down for me uh
53:01
so i haven't done a lot of research about the
53:04
microphone but i do find it deep no it's fine
53:07
it's funny i do find it it looks like this Yeah,
53:11
it looks like playing the world's tiniest violin
53:14
or something. You know what I mean? It is really
53:16
strange. Although I must say that even though
53:20
the phone does have a camera, sometimes it doesn't
53:23
pick everything up, particularly if you are blending
53:26
your video with sound. And there is actually
53:30
a whole set of TikTok trends and people trying
53:34
to vlog stuff on TikTok that are tools to be
53:37
a better content creator. Those videos have thousands,
53:41
if not millions of views, which again, I think
53:45
shows the appeal of influencing as a profession
53:49
or as an aspiration for people, which is why
53:53
then coming back full circles or full circle
53:57
rather, I really dispute the whole, oh, millennials
54:02
are too online vibe because at the same time,
54:05
as I said, Goblin mode is still an aesthetic.
54:08
A lot of Gen Z... Sorry, did you mean Zoomers
54:10
or millennials? Oh, Zoomers. I got it wrong.
54:14
Sorry. No, no, no. Actually, no, I was right.
54:16
What I meant was I really dispute the fact that
54:20
a lot of Zoomers blast us for being too online
54:24
or for posting absolutely everything because...
54:28
Even, as I said, Goblin Mode is an aesthetic.
54:31
A lot of Gen Z aesthetics are still aesthetics.
54:34
And the content creator profession is very lucrative.
54:37
And now there are a lot of Gen Z content creators.
54:40
So that is an aspiration still. And actually,
54:43
for instance, in Italy, when young people are
54:46
asked what job they want to do, a lot of people
54:48
say influencers. They want to be influencers.
54:51
So as much as they may hate us, we were the OG
54:54
bloggers, content creators, influencers. and
54:58
they're trying to be us exactly like i do have
55:01
to say a lot of millennials that i talk to feel
55:04
that kind of like you said we were the ones who
55:06
bridged the gap between the analog and the digital
55:09
worlds like a bunch of brave pioneers going to
55:11
places unknown so some credit from younger generations
55:14
should be due our way but i suppose demanding
55:17
you know uh that we get respected makes us appear
55:21
less cool in a way yes i think also uh the more
55:26
we worry circle yeah It is. And it's a vicious
55:29
circle. And the more we worry about being uncool,
55:32
I think the more uncool we become. I think like
55:35
coolness comes with a certain effortlessness.
55:38
And I think we are definitely putting too much
55:40
effort into now trying to be cool. I feel like
55:43
we will be dubbed uncool at the end of this podcast.
55:47
Okay. Let us selfishly return to us millennials
55:50
and to the question, how can we turn this around
55:53
and become cool again? Probably this is the wrong
55:55
question, like you said, but... Should we kind
55:57
of, if we think of in strategic terms, should
56:01
we double down on our apparently silly ways?
56:03
Or should I, for example, start hanging out with
56:06
a bunch of 24 -year -olds, copy whatever they
56:09
do and try to use words like, what was it, vibing
56:13
and low -key as much as possible? And slay, but
56:17
like said unironically, which I really struggle
56:20
with. Like I am an OG. Sorry, there's an ambulance.
56:25
One sec. I'm an OG Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan,
56:29
hence my tattoo or my many Buffy tattoos. But
56:34
we never said slay. So. And then Beyonce brought
56:39
it in, but like it was kind of only hers to say.
56:42
And now Gen Z say it unironically and I find
56:45
it deeply concerning. But yeah, I think like
56:47
actually there are two conversations to be had
56:50
there. One of them is about perception and, you
56:54
know, online behaviors and stuff. And another
56:57
one is about surrounding ourselves with people
57:01
of all ages. Because I remember my dad who was
57:05
in his 60s. And he only retired basically during
57:10
the pandemic. And I think he, because all of
57:15
his colleagues were so much younger, he had more
57:19
of a finger on the pulse of like young people,
57:21
their lives and stuff. And now that he doesn't
57:23
work anymore, he misses that. And I think in
57:28
general, it's really good to surround ourselves
57:30
with people of different ages and different backgrounds,
57:33
because I think it makes us more. understanding
57:36
and more flexible and less inclined to other
57:40
people that are different from us so i think
57:43
it's actually really really important to surround
57:45
ourselves if not with an all gen z friend group
57:48
with a bit of a gen z sprinkle into our lives
57:52
but i think when it comes back to you know are
57:55
we cool how do we become cool to be honest that's
57:58
not something i'm too bothered by first of all
58:00
because I don't know. I think I'm cool. I don't
58:04
think I need to do a lot of work for that. But
58:06
I think in general also, I try to think of coolness
58:11
in the same way that I think about platforms.
58:13
Every time I try to go viral or craft something
58:18
that's going to get me a lot of engagement, that
58:20
never happens because that is beyond my control
58:23
because algorithms are created by tech lizards.
58:28
things tend to go well for me on social media
58:30
when I create things that resonate with me and
58:34
resonate with my audience and the people around
58:36
me. So I think. I know this is going to be very
58:40
cringe for Gen Z and also very cringe for me
58:44
as well, because I've kind of dropped out of
58:47
the whole drag race phenomenon because I'm annoyed
58:50
at RuPaul and in general, the business of the
58:54
gentrification of drag. But the whole if you
58:57
don't love yourself, how in the hell can you
58:59
can you love somebody else? Like, I think it
59:01
is quite interesting or, you know, like there's
59:03
a lot of self -deprecation around millennials.
59:06
And I think that's fun and it needs to stay.
59:08
But at the same time, we need to cut ourselves
59:11
some slack because we have been through really
59:13
trying times. And I think it's important to accept
59:17
who we are as a generation and what we've been
59:20
through. And there's always room for improving
59:22
ourselves, but not for the sake of getting less
59:25
roasted by Gen Z on social media. Is roasting
59:29
still cool? Is that acceptable? Oh, I mean, I
59:34
don't know if they would call it roasted. Maybe
59:36
they call it something else. But I think people
59:40
are very, I think there are different ways of
59:43
roasting, right? You can be funny about it and
59:46
then people will join in because you're laughing
59:49
with them and not just at them. But then there
59:51
are some people that are pretty vicious. Not
59:53
about millennials, to be honest, but like, I
59:56
don't know. Like, again, something that's coming
59:59
out of digital culture is some of the forums
1:00:03
where people just go on them to criticize others.
1:00:06
And that's something that I don't like. Yeah.
1:00:08
By the way, last question. What about trolling?
1:00:11
Who came up with that? Was that us or was that
1:00:13
Gen Z? And what is that still in vogue? Oh, so
1:00:17
do you mean the actual like do you mean trolling
1:00:19
millennials for what we do or just trolling in
1:00:22
general? Just trolling in general. Oh, trolling
1:00:25
is a very old practice. It started in internet
1:00:30
forums even before social media were a thing.
1:00:33
That was actually the topic of my PhD. Yeah,
1:00:36
yeah. So basically just joining boards to wreak
1:00:42
havoc on them. Yeah, that's like a pre -social
1:00:46
media behavior. And then it's become worse, I
1:00:50
would say, because... a lot of these boards didn't
1:00:54
have formed or fully formed identities. And so
1:00:59
I guess the stakes were less high. But now that
1:01:02
you see, for instance, people joining platforms
1:01:05
anonymously to troll people that actually have
1:01:08
an identity and a life on platforms, that's kind
1:01:11
of more concerning. But yeah, trolling is a very,
1:01:15
very old practice. And I think in general, people
1:01:19
have lost the meaning of it because when it's...
1:01:22
trolling to wreak havoc and just to like create
1:01:24
a bit of mess. Sometimes that can be entertaining
1:01:27
and it takes a form of mastery. But then if you
1:01:30
take it to when you're actually abusing people
1:01:32
online, that's not fun anymore. And that still
1:01:35
happens a lot. Very last question. Are we using
1:01:39
the same memes, Zoomers and millennials, or are
1:01:42
we also on a diverging path here? And we've created
1:01:46
different languages when it comes to memes. Do
1:01:48
they have like memes that I wouldn't understand,
1:01:50
for example? Because I think all of our memes
1:01:52
that my friends who are also millennials sent
1:01:54
to me, I immediately get, even if I haven't seen
1:01:57
them before. I think there's layers to that as
1:02:01
well. So I think basically, I feel like Gen Z
1:02:06
is... joke about a meme so they're like it's
1:02:10
very meta they're one layer after us right so
1:02:12
there's that but i think in general when it comes
1:02:15
to memes you also need to be aware what it is
1:02:18
that they're talking about like you can know
1:02:20
maybe the baseline of the meme like the image
1:02:22
used and the sentence used but then if for instance
1:02:25
you're not familiar with a certain topic or a
1:02:28
certain subculture then that will be lost on
1:02:31
you. I remember, you know, last year there was
1:02:33
all that hoo -ha about Princess Kate being dead
1:02:37
or like having disappeared or something because
1:02:40
she had cancer and like basically people kind
1:02:43
of dragged it out of her to announce it. But
1:02:45
there was this really weird meme about something
1:02:50
bad happening in the royal family every time
1:02:53
an American TV personality, Trisha Paytas, was
1:02:56
pregnant. And so like basically there was this
1:03:00
layer of memes that would refer to her womb and
1:03:04
then Princess Kate. And like if you weren't into
1:03:07
that thread of memes, like you would have never,
1:03:09
ever gotten it. So I had to like go back and
1:03:14
do some detective work of being like, OK, where
1:03:17
does this come from? What are people talking
1:03:18
about? So I think it's not so like it's not only
1:03:21
generational. I think it's also just expertise
1:03:24
and familiarity with a topic. So hopefully that's
1:03:28
some sort of consolation. Carolina, I feel like
1:03:31
I'm right here when I'm starting to slip away.
1:03:34
You know, I don't spend that much time on TikTok
1:03:36
anymore. My grasp of like references is going
1:03:40
to be worse and worse. I already missed out on
1:03:44
like Brad Summer and stuff. And maybe, you know,
1:03:47
it's time for me to say that's okay. You know
1:03:50
that meme where it's just like... a sea full
1:03:54
of smiley dolphins that basically represents
1:03:57
like an ideal state. And sometimes they feel
1:04:01
like that when I'm offline. So I go offline routinely.
1:04:05
I do a lot of digital detoxes. I was just on
1:04:07
holiday in Greece. And for 10 days, it was bliss.
1:04:11
I was just not online. So sometimes, you know,
1:04:14
sometimes I wonder if that's like. is actually
1:04:17
the bliss state that we should be aiming for
1:04:20
like right now I can't afford to be offline because
1:04:23
I'm a postdoc and my postdoc is soon coming to
1:04:26
an end I'm on the job market and a lot of my
1:04:30
fame as an academic and my, let's say, reputation
1:04:34
comes from media relations, from translating
1:04:38
my articles into social media posts that are
1:04:40
easily accessible to my audience. So I feel like
1:04:43
doing that is very much part of my job. But I
1:04:46
crave a time where actually being very online
1:04:49
won't be necessary for my work anymore. So maybe
1:04:53
that will be... the bliss state that we will
1:04:56
reach when we will not know the meaning of a
1:04:58
meme and it will be fine. We will have more,
1:05:01
like we will have nicer things to do. Oh yeah.
1:05:05
Back to the nineties, I say. Carolina, thank
1:05:07
you so much. Where can people... Find you online.
1:05:11
People can find me, they can read my blog at
1:05:14
bloggeronpole .com and they can find me all over
1:05:17
the internet at bloggeronpole. That's Instagram,
1:05:21
TikTok, Blue Sky. I'm still on Twitter, but...
1:05:24
basically just because i'm nostalgic about it
1:05:27
i try to post less on it and i'm also on linkedin
1:05:30
as my name so as myself carolina are so yeah
1:05:33
thank you for having me this has been a really
1:05:35
really fun conversation and we will be cancelled
1:05:38
by gen z in three two one i'll wear it as a badge
1:05:44
of honor Nice. And then last but certainly not
1:06:14
least. Like always, I have to thank my existing
1:06:17
patrons. Tovaris and tovarisice, without you,
1:06:19
there would be no Smart Cookies podcast, which
1:06:21
makes you actual producers of this show, so eternal
1:06:25
glory and thanks go to... Goran, Gordon, Lorenzo,
1:06:44
Jurečuk, Mila, Carmen, Vronica and Tai Chi. The
1:06:47
community is growing, which makes me deeply touched
1:06:49
and grateful. Thanks again, everybody.