Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / DELPHI KILLER RICHARD ALLEN CONVICTED OF GRUESOME DEATH OF TEENS LIBBY AND ABBY DEMANDS REVERSAL

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DELPHI KILLER RICHARD ALLEN CONVICTED OF GRUESOME DEATH OF TEENS LIBBY AND ABBY DEMANDS REVERSAL · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Richard Allen and his fleet
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: of lawyers taking their case back to the appellate court
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: in their attempt to have his conviction in the murders
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  Speaker 1: of two little girls, Abby and Libby and Delphi reversed.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. That's right. The man
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  Speaker 1: convicted in the gruesome murders of two little girls, Abby
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  Speaker 1: and Libby in Delphi is demanding his case be overturned.
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  Speaker 1: Richard Allen, the local pharmacy tech, sent it'ce to one
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  Speaker 1: hundred and thirty years behind bars in the murders of
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  Speaker 1: thirteen year old Abby and fourteen year old Libby, and
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  Speaker 1: now demands his case is reversed. I remember when their
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  Speaker 1: two little bodies were found in a heavily wooded area,
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  Speaker 1: but it was about five years later that Allan was
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  Speaker 1: arrested hiding in plane sight while the defense team is
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  Speaker 1: painting an entirely different picture to the appellate court. This
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: is what happened. Convicted Delphi double killer Richard Allen, local
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  Speaker 1: pharmacy techt makes chilling statements to his own mother after
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  Speaker 1: he murders Libby and Abby, and before long before he
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  Speaker 1: is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby
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  Speaker 1: and Libby didn't come home from the local hiking trail,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find
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  Speaker 1: the girls, and then their worse nightmares came true. The girls'
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  Speaker 1: bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods the next day.
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  Speaker 2: But now we learn one person.
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  Speaker 1: A forty five year old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father,
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  Speaker 1: a son, was making really weird comments about the murders
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  Speaker 1: and trying to talk his own relatives out of joining
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  Speaker 1: the searches. I didn't know that at trial. This is
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  Speaker 1: all new and we're learning it all from Shadow of
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  Speaker 1: the Bridge, the Delphi murders, and the dark side of
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  Speaker 1: the American Heartland.
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  Speaker 2: What did Richard Allen.
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  Speaker 1: Say to his mother after the murders and before long
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  Speaker 1: before he was arrested? A few days after Libby and
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  Speaker 1: Abby were murdered. Janice Allan, Richard Allen's mother, got a
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  Speaker 1: very odd call from her son, Richard Allen, and out
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  Speaker 1: of the blue, sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're
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  Speaker 1: going to pend this on me. Why would he say
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  Speaker 1: that right after the murders? He wasn't even a suspect.
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  Speaker 1: He told his mother that he had been on the
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  Speaker 1: trails the day the girls were murdered and had been
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  Speaker 1: smoking a cigarette, and he came up with this elaborate
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  Speaker 1: theory that investigators would find the cigarette butt, get his
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  Speaker 1: DNA off it, and use that to tie him to
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  Speaker 1: the crime scene. Now, his mother later told this to police,
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  Speaker 1: and she says she found it very odd, but she
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  Speaker 1: kept it to herself for years. The killer was right
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  Speaker 1: under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town. First
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  Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at WHR.
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  Speaker 3: We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed pharmacy take
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  Speaker 3: at this CVS here in Delphi. But many continue to
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  Speaker 3: ask and wonder how a man now charged with two
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  Speaker 3: counts of murder managed to stay under the radar.
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  Speaker 1: In a town of.
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  Speaker 3: About three thousand people. Those who live in Delphi are
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  Speaker 3: still trying to cope with news that Richard Allen is
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  Speaker 3: the man police say murdered Abby Williams and Libby Jerman.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it's a
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  Speaker 1: little eerie and.
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  Speaker 3: Tens in downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like the
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  Speaker 3: office tavern, put up a new sign on their door
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  Speaker 3: reading no Media Aloud. They weren't the only ones. Country
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  Speaker 3: Hair also had a sign off camera. One business owner
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  Speaker 3: Total thirteen news. The community is still in.
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  Speaker 1: Shock, even the girls' families grappling with the reality that
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  Speaker 1: their girls a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one
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  Speaker 1: released affidavit, there were copious amounts of blood at the scene.
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  Speaker 1: These two little girls, Libby and Abby, had their throats slit.
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  Speaker 1: They are grappling with the reality that the killer was
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  Speaker 1: right under their nose. Take a listen Fox fifty nine.
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  Speaker 4: They're also seeing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was
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  Speaker 4: living amongst them the whole time.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know the gentleman personally at all, you know,
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  Speaker 1: so I've probably seen him, but you know, it's a
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  Speaker 1: small county, you know, but definitely don't.
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  Speaker 5: I don't know him.
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  Speaker 4: One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Allan,
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  Speaker 4: who worked at a local CBS, had printed off pictures
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  Speaker 4: for the girls's funeral, leaving the family to wonder how
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  Speaker 4: did nobody know?
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  Speaker 1: When the family says, we didn't know him, that's like
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  Speaker 1: you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy
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  Speaker 1: at McDonald's. It gives you a large coffee with two
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  Speaker 1: creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor
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  Speaker 1: three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for
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  Speaker 1: being with us as we are struggling with the reality
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  Speaker 1: that a double killer, according to police, was right there
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  Speaker 1: saying good morning. How can I help you every single
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  Speaker 1: day to practically everybody in town. To Cheryl McCollum joining me,
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  Speaker 1: founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't
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  Speaker 1: the CVS right in the middle of town, Right.
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  Speaker 5: In the middle of town. If you take the CBS
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  Speaker 5: and make it the center of a wheel with spokes,
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  Speaker 5: you get to the high school, you get to the
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  Speaker 5: middle school, you get to the bridge. Everywhere is centered
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  Speaker 5: from downtown.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins
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  Speaker 1: are so sick. When they were little, we were in
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  Speaker 1: there all the time. I know them. They're families through pictures.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody that works there. You get to know your pharmacist,
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  Speaker 1: and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town.
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  Speaker 1: Joining me right now. Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine.
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  Speaker 1: You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV Max,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I guess the town
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  Speaker 1: is stunned right now because in one picture he's at
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  Speaker 1: a bar what was it, J and H C and
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  Speaker 1: S bar and grill. He's sitting right there living it up,
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  Speaker 1: and right behind him on the wall is his composite.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 7: I mean people were just when we heard about it,
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  Speaker 7: we saw this picture, we saw who he was. People
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  Speaker 7: were done. Five and a half years they've been investigating
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  Speaker 7: this and this guy has been living amongst them the
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  Speaker 7: whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions, they're printing off
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  Speaker 7: photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think
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  Speaker 7: that's sort of what the family was saying there. And
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  Speaker 7: what a whole lot of people have told me is
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  Speaker 7: really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch
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  Speaker 7: and thought maybe it was him or anything like that.
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  Speaker 7: I mean, it was just sort.
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  Speaker 1: Of really shocking right now, the shot factor. And I'll
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  Speaker 1: tell you what I think, and this is from having
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  Speaker 1: handle cases where the killer was right there in the
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  Speaker 1: community the whole time. Yeah, we all looked at the
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  Speaker 1: possibility it was a transient. But Cheryl McComb, you and
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  Speaker 1: I agreed on day one, This was no transient. Right
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  Speaker 1: day one, you and.
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  Speaker 5: I said it, and we never wavered from it. We
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  Speaker 5: even said he would be within five miles and there
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  Speaker 5: once I got the Delphi and we saw where the
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  Speaker 5: bridge was, I mean that to me, I was like,
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  Speaker 5: he's even closer than I think.
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  Speaker 1: And remember the guy the catfisher was keegk and Climb Gosh.
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  Speaker 1: I now I know their name's by heart. Keg and
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  Speaker 1: CLINB was a purv pasty looking dude, middle age. I
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  Speaker 1: think he is anyway. Using a screenshot Anthony shots of
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  Speaker 1: a Justin Bieber looked ane trying to lure young girls.
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  Speaker 1: And he was talking to them just a day or
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  Speaker 1: two before and maybe the day of. But he lives
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  Speaker 1: like thirty sixty miles away. And you and I thought, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the distance didn't fit
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  Speaker 1: to us, because who would know to go to that
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  Speaker 1: dirt road, to that particular trail, to that trestle bridge
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  Speaker 1: and then down to a bottleneck tape forced the girls
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  Speaker 1: down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them.
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  Speaker 1: Had to be a local.
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  Speaker 5: It had to be a local with intimate knowledge because
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  Speaker 5: even where they crossed the creek. That's where the creek
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  Speaker 5: was shallow. Other parts of it are wist deep. This
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  Speaker 5: person knew.
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  Speaker 1: Hold on, wait a minute, I'm trying to drink him.
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  Speaker 1: What you're saying parts of the creek shallow, other parts
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  Speaker 1: waste deep, and that factored into it. It absolutely did.
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  Speaker 1: Why are you saying that?
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  Speaker 5: Because again, this person would have to know that if
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  Speaker 5: you and I just were visiting that area, we would
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  Speaker 5: know where to cross that creek and again wist high,
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  Speaker 5: chest high in some places that it's been raining, but
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  Speaker 5: he knew right where to cross where it was less
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  Speaker 5: than ankle deep.
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  Speaker 1: And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us, He's been
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  Speaker 1: all over this, Max Lewis. The thing is the killer
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  Speaker 1: would know, and you've been to that Chressel Bridge a
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  Speaker 1: million times. The killer would have to know that there
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  Speaker 1: were other people that were in that I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: call it a part. It's more like a hiking area,
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  Speaker 1: and where he killed them, other people would not be
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  Speaker 1: a to see what was going on, even though they
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  Speaker 1: could be walking around in the hiking area.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know, yeah, this is a very well
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  Speaker 7: traveled area, so I mean it's hard to believe that
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  Speaker 7: nobody would have seen them. That may be where the
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  Speaker 7: sort of you remember that that chilling audio recording the
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  Speaker 7: down the hill.
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  Speaker 6: You know, we don't.
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  Speaker 7: Necessarily know, you know, if he is the bridge guy
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  Speaker 7: per se. You know that's still they're holding everything close
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  Speaker 7: to the best at this point.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, Why well, well, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa? Stop
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  Speaker 1: the train, Max Lewis, Let's follow that theory to its
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  Speaker 1: logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers.
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  Speaker 1: That one guy lured them down, the so called bridge guy,
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  Speaker 1: and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: that hard to believe. My mind is still open. But
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  Speaker 1: is that what you're suggesting?
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  Speaker 7: Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that
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  Speaker 7: we are getting at this point, because they do read it. No, no,
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  Speaker 7: we're getting that from the the way they're handling this.
• 11:02
  Speaker 7: They steal those documents, They say, this investigation is ongoing.
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  Speaker 7: What more than they need? If they have their guide
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  Speaker 7: they've made and the rest they found a probable concept
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  Speaker 7: of David, what more do they need?
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  Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollums, straighten it out.
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  Speaker 5: Woman, There's a great possibility there are additional victims, So
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  Speaker 5: they are going to connect every dot they possibly can.
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  Speaker 5: This investigation does not end and arrest in a great world, this.
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  Speaker 2: Is where it starts.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you really think I'm not picking on you,
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  Speaker 1: Max Lewis, You're the messenger, Okay, but do you really
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  Speaker 1: think this guy went from zero to one twenty mph
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  Speaker 1: in one day?
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  Speaker 2: Because I don't even.
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  Speaker 1: When a sports car it takes a minute to heat up,
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  Speaker 1: So I'm not buying it. I think what Cheryl McCollum
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  Speaker 1: just said is right. I think law enforcement are looking
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  Speaker 1: for other young girl victims. Were they sex assaulted, were
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  Speaker 1: they threatened, did they feel threatened? And for people that
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  Speaker 1: may have helped him cover up this crime. Back to
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  Speaker 1: who is this guy? Take a listen now to this.
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  Speaker 4: Before moving to Dolphi, he lived in this home with
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  Speaker 4: his wife and daughter. According to neighbors, David Yoder lived
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  Speaker 4: across the street but has known Allan since he was
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  Speaker 4: born and grew up with his dad.
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  Speaker 8: I mean, I would have never thought living across the
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  Speaker 8: road from him, there's anything as well.
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  Speaker 2: We're set my kids to if there had been any trouble.
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  Speaker 4: But after hearing Allan was arrested in charge with killing
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  Speaker 4: Abby Williams and Libby Jermyn. He's now questioning if he
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  Speaker 4: really knew him.
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  Speaker 2: It's just hard to believe.
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  Speaker 1: He be a heck of a nice guy, always has been.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Heck of a nice guy, always has been. Well, you
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: know what they said that about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: State Killer. In fact, he had even been a cop.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I believe it was in Oxford, California. They said the
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: same thing about the dog catcher, which makes me suspicious
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: at the get go. Who wants to catch dogs and
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: put him to death? Not me bt k by torture
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: kill this raider deacon at the church freak, complete total freak.
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  Speaker 1: After he would murder people in his community on his
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: dog catching route, he would then redress them and put
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  Speaker 1: makeup on them and pose them. Let that sink in.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too. And
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: of course I'm just going to go out on a
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: limb Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was a
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And
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  Speaker 1: you can throw all the hate at me you want to,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: but that is the truth. I was in the trial,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: were you bet? You weren't. If you believe everything somebody
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: is paid to create to convince you to get ratings,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: You're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Scott Peterson in there too. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Richard Allen convicted and the murders of Abby and Libby
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  Speaker 1: now demanding his case be reversed overturned now. The appeal
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: says the court should never have admitted evidence deriving from
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: the search of Alan's home, including everything that was found
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  Speaker 1: in the search. That is called the theory of fruit
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: of the poisonous tree and other words, the tree is poisonous.
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  Speaker 1: If you eat the fruit, you die. What it means
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  Speaker 1: in the legal world is if the search is unconstitutional
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  Speaker 1: aka poisonous, anything born from that search, the fruit what
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: was seized during the search is also unconstitutional and will
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: not be allowed in court. They are also claiming statements
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Alan made while quote gravely disabled in solitary confinement should
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: not have been allowed. There were extensive arguments about his
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: mental well being. Did he know what he was doing well?
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: According to the prosecutors and the judge, he did. David
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as a child and
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: was his neighbor for years and years. And you just
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: heard him say two Max, if my children are in trouble,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I tell him to run over there. That's how much
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  Speaker 1: he trusts trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder, thank you for
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: being with us. Er Okay, tell me, David Yoder, don't
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: leave anything out. What do you recall growing up with
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Richard Allen. I grew up with a little girl named
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street. They
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: had four children, one was the same age of each
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: of us. And it was wonderful. Still friends after all
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: that time, she says. The first time she met me,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I came to her door unannounced, uninvited. They opened the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: door and I said, now, please have a cookie. That's
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen, Well.
• 16:14
  Speaker 8: He was a good kid growing up. I mean, never
• 16:17
  Speaker 8: in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad
• 16:23
  Speaker 8: is a friend of mine. Uh he uh.
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: There's just good people all around, good people.
• 16:31
  Speaker 8: They're very smart people. His Grandpaul was the principal at
• 16:36
  Speaker 8: my grade school and a teacher.
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 16:41
  Speaker 8: There's just a good family, all around, good family, and
• 16:45
  Speaker 8: I just just a shock to think that rec could
• 16:49
  Speaker 8: do something like this. But it's just it's just a shock.
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  Speaker 8: Like I said, I would have sent my kids over
• 16:56
  Speaker 8: there to a safe house, over to him if I
• 16:59
  Speaker 8: had to, you know, to go there if there's any
• 17:02
  Speaker 8: problem and I wasn't home or something.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I feel the same way about Connie Joy Jones.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: committed a double murder much less on children, I'd say
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: no way. I'd go to court and go under oath
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and talk about what a great person she was and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: is and has been alone with my children, and I
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: would have her be alone with them again. I know
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: a good guy? What do you mean by that? Well,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: he never once shotlifted, he never spent, he never took
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a pack of gun from the store, nothing.
• 17:43
  Speaker 8: He always spoke, He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me.
• 17:49
  Speaker 8: I mean, I'm older than he is, several years he was.
• 17:53
  Speaker 8: I better friends with his dad than him, But I
• 17:56
  Speaker 8: would growing up.
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  Speaker 2: How much older are you?
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  Speaker 1: Dad? And I'm sixty eight and Alan is fifty, right, Okay, eighteen.
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  Speaker 8: Years fifty, so somewhere when you say a.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Good guy, how did he do in school? Did he
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: play a sport?
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: Not so much as an athlete?
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: No, what did he do?
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: I don't know just what to school? I wasn't with
• 18:18
  Speaker 8: him in school. His dad I was. Is that who
• 18:20
  Speaker 8: you're talking about now?
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested in
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: his parents Richard.
• 18:25
  Speaker 8: I was out of school when Richard went to school.
• 18:27
  Speaker 8: I mean, I was eighteen years old than he was.
• 18:29
  Speaker 8: He's young enough to be.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: My kid, and never a bit of trouble when he
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: was growing up that I knew he had brothers and sisters.
• 18:36
  Speaker 8: He's got one sister.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Where does she live?
• 18:39
  Speaker 8: I don't know. I lost track of her a long
• 18:41
  Speaker 8: time ago. I mean, and I have Richard too. He
• 18:46
  Speaker 8: moved away from here. I just kind of lost track
• 18:49
  Speaker 8: of him.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: him saw him grow up as a child like David
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Yoder or having hard time taking in that he is
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: now charged with double murderer Davy Yoder. What did you
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard Allen
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: for the murders of Abby and Libby.
• 19:10
  Speaker 8: First starting on my mind is no way, no way.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: David Yoder says he is absolutely shocked that a boy
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: he knew his entire childhood, all the way through growing
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: up and moving away as an adult, is responsible for
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: such a gruesome sex attack we believe, and double murder
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: we believe by knife. I don't know. I have to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: ask the shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: of putting a knife to a little girl's throat is
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: just it's it's repulsive. I don't even want to think
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: about it. But a little digging does reveal a tiny lip.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Max at Fox fifty nine.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Allen has no criminal history, but Carol County Dispatch records
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: show he had one on encounter with police in twenty fifteen.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Alan
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: Loafiette hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: were sent to his del Phi home to quote, keep the.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Peace, Okay, Max, A little? So far, the cops haven't
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: come to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: been carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: So what do we know about what happened?
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: They weren't providing a whole lot of clarification about that.
• 20:29
  Speaker 7: You know, it sounds like there was you know, as
• 20:32
  Speaker 7: I said, there there was a domestic situation. When I
• 20:35
  Speaker 7: asked the sheriff, who's the domestic station situation between he
• 20:38
  Speaker 7: wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: suspect of this, but you know that was But it's
• 20:45
  Speaker 7: also the only other thing I ever founded him. I mean,
• 20:48
  Speaker 7: you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his
• 20:50
  Speaker 7: criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him.
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning.
• 20:56
  Speaker 7: So you know, I'll leave that for you guys to
• 20:59
  Speaker 7: decide what you want to think about that.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: And I certainly will I certainly will dissect that. Who
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: is up causing a ruck as drunk as a skunk
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: at three a m. That's not good to fran Longwell,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former Assistant State's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Attorney and Prince George specializing and homicides and other related
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: crimes fran thank you for being with us. What do
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: you make of this prior arrest.
• 21:26
  Speaker 9: Of the prior arrest, I think it shows in my
• 21:29
  Speaker 9: opinion that he does have some type of violence streak
• 21:32
  Speaker 9: in him.
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: But I kind of agree with you.
• 21:35
  Speaker 9: Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened
• 21:39
  Speaker 9: to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going
• 21:42
  Speaker 9: to find other victims, that we're going to find other
• 21:44
  Speaker 9: other kids that have been abused by this guy.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCombe. It leads
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you to that speculation. But by the way, I agree with.
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: You, Well, I mean again, broad daylight, two victims with
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: other people around, a victim that clearly has a cell phone,
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: that is high risk. You're talking about somebody on the
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: bridge that's, you know, eighty feet high in the air
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: and has boards missing. Everything he did was so risky.
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: It tells me that ain't his first rodeo. And I
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: want to say one more thing.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: When I was.
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: Listening to the neighbors speak, and I think people need
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: to understand when you look at a case like this
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: possibly accept it or understand it. But when you talk
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: to criminologists like you and I, Nancy, we talked, probably
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: their throats were you know, slash, they were posed, they
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: were staged. Things were probably done there, whether it's a
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: carving or some sort of ritual, if.
• 22:40
  Speaker 6: You look at it.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: If this was my case, one of the first things
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: I would do is go to CBS and see if
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: there's a camera in the girls restaurant.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you would say that, because after our
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: said it so much more descriptively than I did cause
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: a crime like this, that there has got to be
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: some prior not necessarily in the Scott Peterson type case
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: where that is a domestic homicide. Brent, he hasn't had
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: another wife to kill in a case like this. However,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: these are not his children, So although he does have
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a daughter near their age, that tells me there are
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: very likely other victims. And I agree with you three
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: hundred percent. Now, what do we know about a twelve
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: plus hour search of his home. Something in that home
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: led them to ultimately arrest the local pharmacists that tech
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Richard Allen take a listen to our cut eighty three,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: our friends at crime online and first our friend Lindsay
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Stone Box fifty nine.
• 23:55
  Speaker 10: Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information
• 23:59
  Speaker 10: uncovered by our the quate from sources with knowledge of
• 24:01
  Speaker 10: the investigation welt. He even came forward in the early
• 24:05
  Speaker 10: days of the investigation as a witness from the more
• 24:07
  Speaker 10: on high Bridge the day Abbey and Libby were killed
• 24:10
  Speaker 10: in February of twenty seventeen. Now at the time, any
• 24:13
  Speaker 10: inquiry did not reveal the need for further investigation. However,
• 24:17
  Speaker 10: his name surfaced again recently. A search form was issued
• 24:20
  Speaker 10: at his house two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly
• 24:24
  Speaker 10: linking him to the deaths.
• 24:26
  Speaker 11: Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen,
• 24:29
  Speaker 11: police officers extensively searched the fifty year old's home. Neighbors
• 24:33
  Speaker 11: tell the New York Posts the non uniformed officers were
• 24:36
  Speaker 11: on the property for about twelve hours. During the search
• 24:39
  Speaker 11: of the property, Allen chairs with his wife. Officers were
• 24:41
  Speaker 11: seen quote snooping a lot around the.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Fire pit and at the backyard.
• 24:46
  Speaker 11: A neighbor describes, quote lots of flashlights, lots of pictures,
• 24:50
  Speaker 11: lots of sifting unquote in that area. The source says
• 24:54
  Speaker 11: that it was odd for them to be in that area,
• 24:56
  Speaker 11: as the Allens were never observed burning things. The neighbor
• 25:00
  Speaker 11: also said when police arrived at the property, no one
• 25:03
  Speaker 11: suspected that there would be a connection to the murders
• 25:05
  Speaker 11: of Living and Babby.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: What are they looking for? What were they looking for?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: If the Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: what were they digging around for? Could have anything to
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: do with blood evidence and there will be blood evidence
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: marked my words. Take a listen to our friends at WISH.
• 25:27
  Speaker 12: This nine page request for a search warrant filed March
• 25:30
  Speaker 12: seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than
• 25:33
  Speaker 12: a month after Libby Jerman and Abby Williams were found
• 25:36
  Speaker 12: murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time
• 25:40
  Speaker 12: gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and
• 25:44
  Speaker 12: what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,
• 25:47
  Speaker 12: written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when
• 25:51
  Speaker 12: they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby Jerman
• 25:54
  Speaker 12: on February fourteenth. The agent writes a large amount of
• 25:58
  Speaker 12: blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.
• 26:01
  Speaker 12: Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is
• 26:04
  Speaker 12: nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten
• 26:07
  Speaker 12: blood on his person or clothing.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Fox fifty nine's Max Lewis, all of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, A
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: twelve plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth near by.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: We know there's blood evidence. And also did you hear
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: that that he actually came forward as a witness in
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: the early days of the investigation.
• 26:43
  Speaker 7: Yeah, from what we have heard from our sources, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 7: he you know, walked up and volunteered to police and said, hey,
• 26:50
  Speaker 7: you know, I was up there. I didn't really see anything,
• 26:54
  Speaker 7: but you know I can tell you, you know, whatever
• 26:56
  Speaker 7: you need to.
• 26:56
  Speaker 8: Know or whatever.
• 26:58
  Speaker 7: So you know, it's that's sort of another amazing thing.
• 27:01
  Speaker 7: And he was sort of brushed off and not really
• 27:05
  Speaker 7: giving a whole lot of thought to as far as
• 27:07
  Speaker 7: the search goes on his house. Yeah, they were neighbors
• 27:10
  Speaker 7: told us they were searching around there digging in the backyard,
• 27:13
  Speaker 7: digging in a fire pit makes you wonder what was
• 27:16
  Speaker 7: in that fire pit?
• 27:17
  Speaker 6: Was he trying to get rid of something?
• 27:18
  Speaker 7: You know, what was going on back There so many,
• 27:21
  Speaker 7: so many unanswered questions about this, but it all doesn't
• 27:24
  Speaker 7: look good.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I want to circle back to what you just said.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Tell me again. Max Slow is joining us from Fox
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: fifty nine, who's been on the case from the very
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: very beginning. You stated at the in the initial days
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: of the investigation, that Richard Allen went to police and
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: said I was there and offered himself up as a witness.
• 27:45
  Speaker 7: That's right, he was, you know, on he said he
• 27:48
  Speaker 7: was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly
• 27:51
  Speaker 7: sure how the encounter happened if he was, you know,
• 27:54
  Speaker 7: if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him,
• 27:57
  Speaker 7: or if he just walked up to them and said, hey,
• 27:59
  Speaker 7: I was here, didn't anything.
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: But you know, I can help you with what you
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: need to know. But we do know that he.
• 28:03
  Speaker 7: Was interviewed by police in the days after Abby and
• 28:07
  Speaker 7: Libby first disappeared and then were found murdered.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: To Karen started joining me. Renowned psychologists joining us out
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: of Manhattan at karenstarton dot com. That's Karen with the
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Sea Karen. He places himself at the scene of the murder.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Scott Peterson did that, idiot. He places himself there claiming
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and then Lacy and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: he was fishing, and then in the weeks that followed,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Bay looking out over the water. I guess he was
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: also it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: He was always at the scene of the crime before
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: anybody else got there. Under the guys of being a
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: stringer for TV stations, he was always there and I
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: get information. Were they on to him? What do you
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: make of him coming to the scene in the day's
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby.
• 29:25
  Speaker 13: I'm not the least surprised, Nancy, because yes, perhaps looking
• 29:30
  Speaker 13: for evidence, But the truth is, when you're that kind
• 29:33
  Speaker 13: of person, a psychopath capable of doing this without empathy.
• 29:38
  Speaker 13: You are, in many instances rewiving what happened. He's enjoying,
• 29:43
  Speaker 13: believe it or not, every moment of this very cunning
• 29:47
  Speaker 13: and manipulative sitting under posters with his own sketch in
• 29:52
  Speaker 13: the back of him. And I want to tell you something.
• 29:55
  Speaker 13: You mentioned all those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah,
• 30:00
  Speaker 13: I never would have expected it of him. And that's
• 30:03
  Speaker 13: not surprising, because that's part of this mo is supersticially charming,
• 30:10
  Speaker 13: and they strike observers as remarkably.
• 30:13
  Speaker 7: Normal, but they're not normal.
• 30:16
  Speaker 13: Just the fact that he did that. Think about it.
• 30:19
  Speaker 13: He goes he's the one that the sensibly committed this crime,
• 30:23
  Speaker 13: and he's volunteering. And I think that very often police
• 30:28
  Speaker 13: forget to look at a person like this. If they
• 30:31
  Speaker 13: want to be there, they want to be a part
• 30:33
  Speaker 13: of it. They're getting a thrill out of reliving it
• 30:37
  Speaker 13: and being a part of the process.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know if the name Rodney al Kala rings
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: a bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in, I'll throw
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: this to you. He was the dating game killer, Rodney
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: al Kala, and he was so charming, he managed handsome
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: The works.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: To some people not me, but many people.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: He was so charming and personal that they put him
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: on the dating game, remember that show. And he turned
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: out to be a cold bloody killer, cold bloody killer.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: But let's talk about people.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: That didn't gray shape themselves. In cases Zodiac did it,
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: Zodiac couldn't take it and had to write them letters.
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: And let's talk about another thing with Wayne Williams that
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: is identical to this case. Wayne Williams also burned things,
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: not in a fire pit, but on his grill. Remember
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: after police, Yeah, FBI came okay. So these are people
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: that the thrill that she mentioned is absolutely correct. And
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: that's another reason he hasn't maybe had to repeat the
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: crime yet because he's still living this one. The family
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: comes into CBS and he has contact with them. He
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: you know, ask him, hey, do you need anything. Maybe
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: he goes to where Kelsey works. You know, Kelsey always
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: said she worried.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: About that, and that is the victim's sister had contact.
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: But I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: went to the funeral or the viewing, And I guarantee
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was a
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: official or not. I guarantee he was out there.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, I got a pretty good idea what may have
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: been burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: our friend to me Johnson WISHTV.
• 32:13
  Speaker 12: Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one
• 32:16
  Speaker 12: of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while
• 32:19
  Speaker 12: the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared
• 32:23
  Speaker 12: the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes
• 32:26
  Speaker 12: on to say, based upon my training and experience, it
• 32:29
  Speaker 12: is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to
• 32:32
  Speaker 12: take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.
• 32:36
  Speaker 12: The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming
• 32:40
  Speaker 12: it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only
• 32:44
  Speaker 12: a few seconds have been made public. That the girls
• 32:50
  Speaker 12: were followed by the suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail,
• 32:54
  Speaker 12: and that there were no visible signs of a struggle
• 32:57
  Speaker 12: or fight.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. During trial, the jury spent
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: about nineteen hours deliberating. It took three days They went
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: through every bit of evidence before finding Richard Allen guilty
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: on all counts. I think a lot of it had
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to do with all of his confessions that he made
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: to various people, including over the phone, many many confessions. Remember,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: police spent years looking for the Purp, investigating thousands of
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: leads and releasing multiple sketches of who they believed murdered
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Abby and Libby. I will never get over the picture
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: of him, Richard Allen, sitting in a restaurant bar, and
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: right over his head on the wall behind him is
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: a sketch of the Purp and it looks just like him.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: But that's what I mean when I said he was
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: hiding in plane sight. Another oddity. Immediately after the girls
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: go missing, Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of thirty
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: four very long years. I'm sure the mother of his
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: daughter Britney, wanted to go search.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: For the girls.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: We learned from Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and the Dark Side of the American Heartland. And the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: book is by journalist Amy Caine and lawyer Kevin Greenley.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife wanted to
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: go search for the girls. A lot of employers were
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: actually giving employees a day off to go and search
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: for the girls.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Everyone was volunteering.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Alan's wife, Kathy wanted to go and search, but Alan
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: actively convinced his wife not to get involved. What was
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: actually said, we don't know specifically, but we do know
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: it was enough to keep her from joining in the search.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: She also had to convince Richard Allen, her own husband,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to tell police he was on the trails that day.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: He was reluctant to call in the tip.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Why fran Longwell joining US veteran trial lawyer, expertise homicide.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that?
• 35:27
  Speaker 9: Frand, I think that's totally that's natural. I think a
• 35:31
  Speaker 9: lot of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure,
• 35:35
  Speaker 9: always seemed to take some kind of souvenir. We had
• 35:38
  Speaker 9: a case years ago where they were finding bodies along
• 35:41
  Speaker 9: the Beltway and in areas for Shortest County, and years
• 35:45
  Speaker 9: and years later death suspect was found. He was able
• 35:49
  Speaker 9: to draw pictures of each midfield, what she looked like,
• 35:53
  Speaker 9: and he had some souvenir each one of those murders.
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: I don't think that's unusual.
• 35:58
  Speaker 9: I think that's part of it, or excitement of the crime.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs? It's very common
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: the twins. I mean, I don't even know how many
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I've got. Birthday, Christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthday, just goes on
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: and on in summer vacation for every year they're fifteen, Karen,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: those are my souvenirs.
• 36:27
  Speaker 13: But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want
• 36:31
  Speaker 13: to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's
• 36:35
  Speaker 13: exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate
• 36:39
  Speaker 13: to say this, but I have a feeling it will
• 36:41
  Speaker 13: be underwear, because they like to do that, to take underwear,
• 36:45
  Speaker 13: to take some kind of token that they've been there,
• 36:49
  Speaker 13: that they did this. It gives them a really good
• 36:52
  Speaker 13: sense of themselves. They're powerful, they're above the law, and
• 36:56
  Speaker 13: they got away with them.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum. The
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: or interchanged by accident.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: that occurs.
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's something that they.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Want to do. Ted Bundy. Oh, after the person was dead,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: he had redressed them and do their hair and makeup,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: had bathed their bodies in the pathtub at the house.
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: Israel keys did the same thing, make up, hair, redress them,
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: pose them raiding the girl's hair like Pope.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh gosh, Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: a lot of times we focus on the murder, but
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: it is a sexually generated crime, there's no question about it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: And again, his computers, when you know the superintendent mentioned
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: the lab so often feel like chronic part the biology,
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: the tool marks, the voice.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Analysis, the hares, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: tool marks which is from a knife.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: But I also think Arson is going to.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Be a money tree to doctor Todd M. Bar now
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: joining us, speaking of blood. He is a board certified
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: and atomic clinical forensic pathologist joining us out of Ohio.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: He's featured in Thin Places Essays from in Between and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: you can find them on Twitter at Todd bar MEA.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: That's for medical examiner. Doctor bar thank you for being
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: with us and waiting for the build up to the scientists.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: The medical examiners that ultimately says there are no eyewitnesses
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: as of yet will make or break this case. We
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: learned that there are copious amounts of blood at the scene,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: How is that likely to have happened?
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: Well, Memphe, it seems to me, I know that there's.
• 39:00
  Speaker 14: Some speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had
• 39:04
  Speaker 14: been slashed, and you know, because the carotid arteries are
• 39:09
  Speaker 14: under such high pressure, there would be a lot of
• 39:12
  Speaker 14: the spatter and and uh, disbursement of blood in the process.
• 39:16
  Speaker 14: So you're absolutely one hundred percent correct that they'd be
• 39:19
  Speaker 14: transfer of that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing,
• 39:23
  Speaker 14: but also onto the perpetrator.
• 39:25
  Speaker 6: So and my thought was.
• 39:27
  Speaker 14: You know, maybe he even was burying the murder weapon
• 39:32
  Speaker 14: that h in the firepit area, possibly the clothing.
• 39:38
  Speaker 6: And I've worked on several serial.
• 39:40
  Speaker 14: Killer cases before, and they do like to take a
• 39:42
  Speaker 14: trophy from uh, you know, it's in my my experience
• 39:46
  Speaker 14: that that that these articles that they collect are basically
• 39:51
  Speaker 14: like a trophy. And I have to also think to
• 39:55
  Speaker 14: myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case trying to
• 40:00
  Speaker 14: get involved in the case, there may even be some
• 40:04
  Speaker 14: notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: So I think that, you know, with a twenty million dollar.
• 40:12
  Speaker 14: Bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some significant
• 40:17
  Speaker 14: evidence that they found. I know it's all filled, but
• 40:20
  Speaker 14: I'm very much concerned that there are other victims that
• 40:23
  Speaker 14: play here.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Wow, that was a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I find very very unusual. I would have suspected a
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: But due to the copious amounts of blood too, which
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: have been eluded in the documents, it leads me to
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: there are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jody
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Arias case where Travis Alexander was stabbed twenty nine plus
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: times and then shot, would you be able to match that.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: particular knife, and if so.
• 41:14
  Speaker 14: How depending on the type of knife that may have
• 41:17
  Speaker 14: been used, If it was one that had a serrated edge,
• 41:21
  Speaker 14: you could actually if it if the tool actually got
• 41:27
  Speaker 14: into the bone in the area that's that's where the
• 41:30
  Speaker 14: tool marks are found. When the when the blade would
• 41:33
  Speaker 14: pass over the bone, and if it's serrated, they can
• 41:36
  Speaker 14: actually match up those serrated edges almost identically to show
• 41:44
  Speaker 14: you know that a specific tool was used. So if
• 41:46
  Speaker 14: they do have the murder weapon and they have evidence
• 41:50
  Speaker 14: of serrations on the bone, then that could very easily
• 41:54
  Speaker 14: be matched up.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Five years after the murder.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Right years passed after the murders before Richard Allen was arrested,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: a seemingly clerical error meant the tip, a specific tip,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: fell through the cracks, But when it resurfaced, Richard Allen
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: was reinterviewed and confirmed he was on the trail and
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: wearing the same outfit blue jeans and a Carhart jacket
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: as the guy caught on camera by the victims. What
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: more do we know about the investigation? And the appellate
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Court will be able to read all the facts as
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: long as they are in the trial transcript. They the
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: appellate Court judges cannot consider anything that is not in
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: that transcript. The jury is the sole judge of the
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: facts in the law. The appellate Court does not hear
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: any additional facts. They are now making decisions of law.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Richard Allen demanding judges overturn his conviction for murdering two
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: del fhiighteen girls, but the state says the evidence shows
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he did kill them.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Another argument that Richard Allen's lawyers are making is that
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: because the trial court prohibited the jury from hearing Alan's
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: side of the story showing how law enforcement went down
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: the wrong path, justice could not be done. Well, that's bs.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: He could have taken the.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Stand if you wanted to, and explain how he was wronged,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: but he didn't. Not only that, he had a fleet
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: of witnesses, and the defense attorneys argued till they were.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Blue in the face these very issues.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: It didn't work. The state argues evidence from the search
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: of the home should be allowed, that investigators did not
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: include false statements or omit material from the affidavit for
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: probable cause, that there was probable cause to search the home.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: They also argue his multiple confessions were rightfully allowed at trial,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: that Richard Allen was not coerced, the conditions of his
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: confinement did not rise to coercion. Remember, he even confessed
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: to his wife over the telephone and so many others.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Nobody made him do that. We wait as justice unfolds
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: for Libby and Abby, Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: my Friend