Latest / Inside Politics / Is the campaign getting away from Peter Dutton?

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Is the campaign getting away from Peter Dutton? · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This week on
0:08
S1: the campaign saw the release of competing housing policies and
0:11
S1: the appearance of Peter Dutton's son, Harry. But in many ways,
0:15
S1: the campaign continued to be overshadowed by Donald Trump. Labor
0:19
S1: is making increasingly explicit attacks. Trying to link Dutton to
0:23
S1: the US president, and Dutton's cause was not helped when
0:26
S1: one of his key frontbenchers aped a Trump slogan. Does
0:30
S1: this mean that the wheels have fallen off the coalition campaign?
0:34
S1: Joining me today to discuss all this juicy stuff, we
0:36
S1: have chief political correspondent David Crowe, as usual, and national
0:40
S1: affairs editor James Massola. Welcome, gentlemen.
0:43
S2: Thanks, Jack. G'day, jacki. Hi, James.
0:45
S1: Now, we did have the debate. The second sort of
0:48
S1: leaders debate on Wednesday night on the ABC, which we
0:50
S1: all stayed up really late to watch. I mean, it
0:52
S1: was only like 9 p.m., but still. And all of us,
0:55
S1: I think, actually gave that debate to Anthony Albanese, but
1:00
S1: we want to move on to other matters and in particular,
1:03
S1: the sort of shadow of Trump that has been casting
1:07
S1: itself across the campaign. David. On Monday, you wrote up
1:10
S1: resolve polling that gave us actual data about the impact
1:13
S1: of Donald Trump on this political election campaign, as opposed
1:16
S1: to our vibes and feelings on that subject. What did
1:20
S1: the polling show?
1:21
S2: Well, one of the big findings was that 68% of
1:24
S2: voters say Donald Trump is bad for Australia. That's up
1:28
S2: from 40% last November. So we know that there is
1:32
S2: this strong feeling in the Australian electorate about the problem
1:37
S2: presented by Donald Trump. Now, there's been a lot of
1:40
S2: supposition about how that plays out domestically, because there's this
1:43
S2: perception that Peter Dutton would be more aligned with Donald
1:46
S2: Trump on some policies. So we asked directly, does your
1:52
S2: view of Donald Trump make you less likely to vote
1:54
S2: for Peter Dutton, or more likely or less likely to
1:57
S2: vote for Anthony Albanese or more likely, two separate questions
2:01
S2: worded exactly the same way. And they show a greater
2:04
S2: tendency of voters to mark down Peter Dutton on this point.
2:08
S2: And so there's a key problem here for Peter Dutton
2:10
S2: to overcome this perception among voters that he's not the
2:14
S2: right person for this era with Donald Trump in office.
2:18
S1: Yeah. Labor, of course, is very explicitly linked. Dutton its
2:21
S1: agenda to Trump's, particularly in the case of Dutton talking
2:25
S1: about anti-woke measures and his desire to cut the public service.
2:29
S1: And he's also made some remarks praising Trump. You know,
2:32
S1: a while ago now, he said, Trump was a big
2:34
S1: thinker and very shrewd. And this perception was made much,
2:38
S1: much worse on Saturday, wasn't it, James? When Jacinta Nampijinpa
2:41
S1: price stood next to Peter Dutton at a press conference
2:44
S1: in Paris, had a Trump slogan.
2:47
S3: Yeah, make Australia great again. Jackie, I think it was
2:50
S3: the exact phrase.
2:51
S4: I'm so proud to be able to stand beside and
2:54
S4: to ensure that we can make Australia great again. That
2:58
S4: we can bring Australia back then.
3:00
S3: Didn't recall, you know, 20 minutes later or whatever it
3:03
S3: was at a press conference.
3:04
S4: No. If I said that, I don't even realize I
3:06
S4: said that. But no, let's be very, very clear. The media,
3:11
S4: you're all obsessed with Donald Trump. We're not we're not
3:14
S4: obsessed with Donald Trump. We're actually obsessed.
3:17
S3: You know, I mean, I guess sometimes the moment can
3:19
S3: take us and we can kind of take off and
3:22
S3: get into a rhetorical full flight and not quite, perhaps,
3:26
S3: remember what we're saying. But I mean, what happened with
3:29
S3: Jacinta Price, I think is emblematic of what's been going
3:33
S3: on with the coalition through the course of this campaign
3:35
S3: is that there is a cohort of coalition voters and
3:39
S3: politicians who can't quite resist the lure of the of,
3:42
S3: you know, the Trump brand and stance on certain issues,
3:47
S3: you know, like woke education and these sorts of things.
3:51
S3: And I think for Peter Dutton, it's been particularly damaging, as,
3:54
S3: you know, as the pole sort of proved he can't quite.
3:58
S3: Opposition leader. Resist the temptation to at least ape some
4:03
S3: of the policies. And then he kind of walks it back,
4:06
S3: and then he dips his toe in the water again.
4:08
S3: And it's it's been really messy. And I think it's
4:10
S3: a massive I mean, the numbers bear it out. It's
4:14
S3: a massive turn off for Australians.
4:16
S1: You could just about hear all the Liberal campaign strategists
4:19
S1: just absolutely slapping their heads in frustration when Jacinta Price
4:23
S1: said that, um, how did Peter Dutton react afterwards? And
4:26
S1: did he try to sort of laugh it off or
4:29
S1: gloss over it? What did he do?
4:31
S2: He certainly didn't try to stop her from speaking. In fact,
4:34
S2: he he let the press conference run and encouraged journalists
4:38
S2: to ask Senator Nampijinpa Price more questions so he couldn't
4:42
S2: be seen to sort of try and step in and,
4:45
S2: and silence her. So he was really caught in a
4:48
S2: difficult situation.
4:50
S1: Um, it does seem a little bit like the campaign
4:53
S1: is sort of getting away from Peter Dutton. I wonder
4:56
S1: what you guys think about that. I'm thinking of the
4:58
S1: ways in which he's had to apologize. He's obviously backed
5:00
S1: down from a major policy completely. In the debate on
5:03
S1: Wednesday night, we saw him having to apologize for a
5:07
S1: remark he made about the Indonesian president basically misrepresenting him.
5:12
S1: I mean, what's your take on that, David?
5:14
S2: I think it's getting to a very challenging time for
5:17
S2: the coalition. On the Trump issue. I think that they
5:20
S2: are you can almost hear the crunching of the gears
5:24
S2: as they try to, you know, shift course on Trump.
5:28
S2: It was earlier in the year, I think they thought
5:31
S2: that aligning themselves on some of those issues was going
5:34
S2: to be good for them. They set up a government
5:36
S2: efficiency task force with Senator Nampijinpa price leading that. Peter
5:41
S2: Dutton called Donald Trump a big thinker on Gaza because
5:45
S2: he didn't want to look like he was at odds
5:47
S2: with with Donald Trump. Then, as it became clear that
5:50
S2: that was a net negative. They've got to change. However,
5:52
S2: that wasn't nailed down clearly as a sort of a
5:57
S2: strategic position at the beginning of the campaign. Otherwise, surely
6:01
S2: the message to Senator Nampijinpa price would have been, whatever
6:06
S2: you do, don't be pro Trumpist with your rhetoric. And
6:10
S2: so they they are adapting too late and maybe too
6:14
S2: late to right the campaign in that sense. On one
6:17
S2: of the big issues we've always found that Donald Trump
6:19
S2: is is one of the political figures who is absolutely
6:24
S2: known by almost every voter, much more so than some
6:27
S2: frontbenchers on both sides. And so getting that language right
6:31
S2: is really fundamental. But then you get these other mistakes
6:33
S2: as well. The mistake about working from home, where Peter
6:37
S2: Dutton had to adjust his language last week, and then
6:39
S2: the mistake this week on the Russian talks with Indonesia
6:44
S2: or whatever status they had then Peter Dutton saying the
6:49
S2: Indonesian president had said something when in fact he had not.
6:52
S2: You know, that was loose talk, but also a big
6:55
S2: problem because it was about national security, which is meant
6:57
S2: to be Peter Dutton's strong suit.
6:59
S1: Yeah. And James said, we also saw Bridget McKenzie come
7:02
S1: out and say something about China and Russia, didn't she?
7:05
S1: Can you tell us what went down there?
7:07
S3: Yeah. Bridget McKenzie's intervention there was slightly odd, jacki. I
7:11
S3: believe she said she was. There were like the Russian
7:15
S3: government was cheering for an Albanese victory.
7:18
S1: She said, I think that Russia and China wanted Labour
7:21
S1: to win and that they were on record. The Russian
7:25
S1: foreign minister and the Chinese president were on record as
7:30
S1: having supported Albo, basically.
7:32
S3: Yeah, exactly. It just was a bizarre intervention and one
7:36
S3: that you can't really give any credence to at all. Look,
7:41
S3: to come back to your starting point question, Jackie, this
7:45
S3: has been one of, if not the most untidy, messy,
7:49
S3: you know, small, problem plagued campaigns I've ever seen, you know?
7:55
S3: The 2013 Labour campaign to try and, you know, get
7:58
S3: Kevin Rudd to, you know, to keep him, keep him
8:01
S3: in office, get him re-elected. That was probably worse. But
8:04
S3: that was because Labour by that point was in such
8:07
S3: bad odour with the electorate, there was really nothing the
8:10
S3: ALP could do. This just feels like a not even
8:15
S3: weekly but daily kind of cavalcade of small mistakes begetting
8:20
S3: bigger mistakes or missteps or tactical errors or look, it's
8:27
S3: sort of all of the above. Do you know what
8:29
S3: I mean? Um, and what it has meant is that
8:32
S3: we are now at a point where, you know, three
8:35
S3: months ago the coalition was talking about majority government. We're
8:38
S3: now at a point where minority, even the prospect of minority,
8:42
S3: seems to be slipping away from them.
8:43
S1: Yeah. Um, and David, on that point, there's also a
8:46
S1: sort of affirming prospect that Labour might be able to
8:49
S1: win government in its own right.
8:50
S2: I think so, because that's what the polling indicates. An
8:54
S2: improved chance of Labour winning enough on preferences to have
8:58
S2: a strong enough two party vote to hold seats and
9:01
S2: maybe even gain a few. But look at this point,
9:04
S2: there's a margin of error in all polling and it's
9:07
S2: still very early. So I think, you know, we should
9:10
S2: really treat and I try to write about the campaign
9:12
S2: as if every scenario is still on the table. You know,
9:16
S2: the coalition could could get its act together and have
9:18
S2: a much more convincing message in the final two weeks.
9:21
S2: And early voting doesn't start till Tuesday. However, I think
9:24
S2: it's important to also note we shouldn't ignore the fact
9:27
S2: that there are still some challenges for Anthony Albanese. On
9:29
S2: the Labour side, their majority is slim, their margins are
9:33
S2: pretty narrow in some of those seats. And in the debate,
9:36
S2: Anthony Albanese did not have a convincing answer on whether
9:39
S2: energy prices would come down. He was evasive and I
9:43
S2: think any ordinary viewer watching that debate would have assumed, okay,
9:46
S2: my energy bill is going to go up.
9:47
S5: Mhm. Is cheaper than 30. When do we when do
9:49
S5: we see the bills come down. Well what we need
9:52
S5: to do is to roll out renewables, make sure there's
9:55
S5: energy security, make sure it's backed up by batteries, by
9:59
S5: hydro and by gas.
10:01
S2: He was asked about whether he'd had negative gearing modelling done.
10:04
S2: And James and I reported this story last year in Treasury,
10:08
S2: not in Anthony Albanese's department. There was modelling done on
10:12
S2: negative gearing. Now, again, it's kind of a tricky issue.
10:15
S2: I'm not saying that they're going to have a secret
10:17
S2: plan to tax changes to negative gearing, but there are
10:21
S2: some issues for Anthony Albanese to navigate in this campaign,
10:24
S2: and there's still two weeks to go.
10:26
S1: It was a very good question. I thought that, you know,
10:29
S1: we're repeatedly told by Chris Bowen, the energy minister, and
10:31
S1: by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, that renewables are the cheapest
10:34
S1: form of energy. So why isn't that translating to our
10:37
S1: bills yet and when will it? And it was a
10:39
S1: very simple question that the Prime Minister did not have
10:42
S1: an answer for, and I think that spoke volumes. We
10:45
S1: did see Dutton sort of focus a little bit more
10:47
S1: this week on, you know, the sort of classic liberal
10:50
S1: territory of home ownership and how important that is for
10:53
S1: family formation. He keeps sort of saying that there are
10:56
S1: people who are putting off having children, or that there
10:58
S1: are grandparents or would be grandparents putting off retirement so
11:01
S1: that they can help out. Um, you know, the next generation.
11:05
S1: Then we saw the intervention of Harry Dutton. Peter Dutton's son,
11:10
S1: sort of representing this young legion of voters who are
11:15
S1: struggling to get into the property market. Tell us about that, James,
11:18
S1: because you wrote about it.
11:20
S3: Yeah. Look, this was a bit bizarre. It has to
11:22
S3: be said, uh, jacki, the appearance of Harry Dutton on
11:25
S3: the campaign trail.
11:26
S6: I mean, we're saving like mad, but it doesn't look
11:29
S6: like we'll get there in the near future. Um, but
11:32
S6: we'd love that to change.
11:33
S7: We've just.
11:34
S3: We know, and we see, you know, politicians, partners, their kids,
11:38
S3: sometimes their parents, we see them all the time, but
11:40
S3: they're kind of seen and not heard on the campaign trail.
11:43
S3: Peter Dutton is a very, very private individual. So, you know, where,
11:48
S3: you know, at this point in the cycle when Kevin
11:50
S3: Rudd was opposition leader or John Howard or Tony Abbott,
11:54
S3: you know, we'd met Therese Rein or we'd met Margie
11:57
S3: Abbott or whoever it might be. We'd met the kids,
11:59
S3: we might have met at least a couple of the
12:01
S3: brothers or sisters or cousins or whatever. We haven't seen
12:05
S3: any of that with Peter Dutton. We don't even know
12:07
S3: the names of his brothers and sisters. He's got five.
12:10
S3: But then up pops Harry Dutton, and he's not just
12:14
S3: at the press conference supporting his dad. He's answering questions
12:17
S3: about how tough it is to get into the market.
12:19
S3: And that's great. You know, the kid's 20. He's doing
12:21
S3: a traineeship as a builder. Good luck to him. Most
12:25
S3: people probably aren't thinking about buying a house at 20,
12:28
S3: but he is. You know, I take my hat off
12:30
S3: to him. But the really like, the thing that stuck out, jacki,
12:34
S3: is that they didn't have an answer ready Already when
12:37
S3: they were asked, would Peter Dutton help Harry Dutton get
12:41
S3: into the property market?
12:42
S7: You're doing pretty well yourself. Why won't you support him
12:45
S7: a bit and give him a bit of help with
12:48
S7: getting his house? I haven't finished the excellent points I
12:50
S7: was making. The next point as to why people should
12:52
S7: vote liberal is that we can manage the economy well.
12:54
S3: Now Peter Dutton, as we know, has turned over something
12:58
S3: like $30 million in property over the last 25, 30 years.
13:02
S3: He's bought 26 houses. You know, surely he's turned his
13:07
S3: mind to this at some point. But apparently he hadn't.
13:09
S3: And it took him a day and a half, and
13:11
S3: it was just odd.
13:12
S7: And the Prime Minister and I might be able to
13:14
S7: help our kids. But it's not about us. It's about
13:16
S7: how we can help millions of Australians across generations realise
13:21
S7: the dream of home ownership, like.
13:22
S3: And sort of more, um, broadly, Jackie, the thing that
13:25
S3: was kind of curious about this is, you know, politicians
13:29
S3: use families as props. They use, um, retirees, whoever it
13:33
S3: might be as props Dogs.
13:35
S1: I mean Toto. Toto. The dog gets exploded on a
13:38
S1: near daily basis.
13:39
S3: Exactly. There are case studies, right? Well, they're case studies
13:43
S3: for Peta to use Harry Dutton as his case study.
13:47
S3: And then to have not actually done the research. It
13:49
S3: just looked very messy, I have to say.
13:52
S1: Yeah. I mean, he was sort of holding him up
13:53
S1: as a sort of. Yeah, as basically representative of this
13:56
S1: younger generation who are finding it so hard.
13:57
S3: This is your typical 20 year old.
13:59
S1: Yeah. But of course, the inevitable questions came up to
14:01
S1: Peter Dutton of whether or not the bank of Mum
14:04
S1: and Dad would help out Harry Dutton. And, you know,
14:07
S1: more power to them. Like if the bank of mum
14:08
S1: and Dad can help out, then then they should or
14:11
S1: they're perfectly within their rights to. But I think the
14:15
S1: probably the major issue or the crunchy issue with, with
14:18
S1: home ownership in the housing crisis is for young people
14:20
S1: who don't have the bank of mum and dad, and
14:22
S1: that's where we have, you know, both sides of politics,
14:24
S1: trying to come up with these interventions to, I guess,
14:27
S1: give support to young people who don't have that support,
14:30
S1: you know, from generational wealth. David, you had a different take, though,
14:33
S1: didn't you? You thought the intervention of Harry Dutton was
14:36
S1: actually a net positive for Dutton?
14:38
S2: Yeah, I thought so. I thought I thought it helped
14:41
S2: Peter Dutton to have his son there. I thought they
14:43
S2: should have been ready for the question about the bank
14:45
S2: of mum and Dad. And that question was asked by
14:47
S2: Olivia Island from our mastheads. And it was then followed
14:50
S2: up 24 hours later by other journalists, also putting the
14:53
S2: same question. It was a good question. It needed to
14:55
S2: be asked and Peter Dutton was not ready with the answer. However,
14:59
S2: I think that policy thing is sort of secondary. A
15:03
S2: lot of people would have seen he's got a son
15:04
S2: who's loyal to him, who loves him, and who's willing
15:07
S2: to stand up in front of a press pack and
15:09
S2: speak up for him. And I think that's a net positive.
15:11
S2: And I think also it was actually gutsy for Harry
15:15
S2: Dutton to do it, because what do you cop when
15:19
S2: you do that? You just cop a lot of whinging
15:20
S2: about and criticism and scrutiny of you as a private individual.
15:24
S2: So it's not an easy thing to do. And I
15:28
S2: think it was an indication that on the coalition side,
15:30
S2: they realised they've got to humanize Peter Dutton more. But
15:34
S2: all that said, it worked.
15:36
S3: There's this sense, though, David, that I mean, why are
15:39
S3: we seeing Harry Dutton in, what is it, week three
15:42
S3: of the campaign? Like, like they're building the plane as
15:45
S3: they're trying to fly it as well. Harry, I would
15:49
S3: argue Harry Dutton should have been introduced to voters six
15:52
S3: months ago. Do you know what I mean?
15:54
S2: Oh. Fair point. Absolutely fair point. And I think I
15:57
S2: think it cements this, this view of the of the
16:01
S2: coalition campaign that they did not prepare well enough. And
16:05
S2: now they're finding past the halfway point, just as early
16:09
S2: voting is about to start, that they're really in terrible trouble.
16:13
S1: I mean, you talk about humanizing Peter Dutton, which I
16:16
S1: think is a really interesting verb at this stage because,
16:20
S1: I mean, he is a human. We shouldn't have to, um,
16:23
S1: you know, we shouldn't have any doubts on that matter.
16:26
S1: But I think what we're really talking about here is
16:29
S1: that voters need to get a sense of the kind
16:30
S1: of person that Peter Dutton is. It's almost as though
16:33
S1: we can't sort of get a handle on him. Like,
16:35
S1: is he is he a dad? Is he just a
16:37
S1: sort of hard man on national security? Does he have
16:39
S1: other complexities or nuance to his personality? Which, of course
16:43
S1: he must, and he does. But voters haven't been given
16:46
S1: a sense to them. And I suppose putting someone's child
16:49
S1: out there and showing that father son relationship is a
16:52
S1: sort of concrete way of doing that. I can only
16:55
S1: imagine that was what the the liberal strategists were thinking.
16:58
S2: I think that's a really good point, because I think
17:00
S2: Peter Dutton has spent far too much of this term
17:03
S2: talking to his echo chamber, talking to Sky news at night,
17:06
S2: talking to conservative supporters. I mean, it's not like he's
17:10
S2: done a lot of interviews to reach out to voters
17:12
S2: in the teal seats, right. Who might want action on
17:15
S2: climate change, for instance, people in the middle ground there.
17:18
S2: So I think now they're finding out too late that
17:21
S2: they haven't reached out far enough into the community to
17:24
S2: get the undecided voters in the middle of the community.
17:28
S2: and it may be too late for them to do that,
17:32
S2: but that's what I see as. One of the dynamics here.
17:35
S3: One of the things that's really struck me. Through the
17:37
S3: course of this campaign is the frustration in coalition ranks.
17:41
S3: And some of the questions that Peter Dutton is getting
17:43
S3: are the, you know, from coalition strategists, from MPs or
17:48
S3: the press packs being so much tougher on him than
17:50
S3: on Albanese? It's not fair. And it's clear where the
17:53
S3: bias is and what have you. What I actually think
17:55
S3: we're seeing is three years of frustration borne out, like
18:00
S3: Peter Dutton has very rarely, very rarely stood at press
18:04
S3: conferences in Canberra and taken all questions from all comers.
18:07
S3: Right now, after three years, people have a long list
18:11
S3: of questions stored up. And that's that's what we're seeing.
18:14
S3: You know, I meant to ask this six months ago
18:16
S3: or 12 months ago. I mean, personally, I don't know
18:18
S3: what David does. I don't know what you do, Jacqui,
18:20
S3: but I keep a list of questions for every senior politician,
18:24
S3: so I'm never caught short. If, you know, I'm at
18:26
S3: a press conference. Any more questions? Yeah, actually, I've got one.
18:29
S3: I've got a long list of questions for Peter Dutton
18:31
S3: from from the mundane to the obscure to the, you know,
18:35
S3: immediate and germane. And I'm sure other people do, too.
18:38
S3: And that's what we're seeing. People are getting those questions finally,
18:42
S3: and it's been difficult.
18:44
S1: I totally agree with you. There's like there's a pent
18:46
S1: up demand, as an economist might say. And I think
18:49
S1: that was one of the things that was so satisfying
18:50
S1: about Wednesday night's debate was that David Speers had all
18:54
S1: those questions, and he really, really prosecuted them. I felt very,
18:57
S1: very fairly. But the questions of Peter Dutton in particular,
19:01
S1: like he sort of really hammered him, particularly over stuff
19:03
S1: like water reservations for his nuclear reactors, the cost of
19:06
S1: the nuclear reactors and so forth. I just want to
19:09
S1: ask you both briefly about something from that debate, which
19:11
S1: is the remarks that Peter Dutton made about climate change,
19:14
S1: because he was pressed pretty heavily on that point by
19:16
S1: David Speers, the host. He did say that he acknowledged
19:20
S1: that that there were impacts from climate change. But then
19:24
S1: he seemed to say something a little bit different. David,
19:26
S1: can you pick up what he said?
19:28
S2: Yeah, basically he said, um, I'll leave that to the
19:31
S2: scientists as to whether climate change is real. He wasn't
19:35
S2: willing to say clearly, publicly on live television. I believe
19:39
S2: the scientists, when they say climate change is real.
19:42
S7: Well, I'll leave others to.
19:44
S8: To what do you think? You're a Queenslander.
19:45
S7: I'll let scientists and others pass that judgment.
19:47
S8: But really, you're not willing to say this is climate
19:50
S8: change happening right now?
19:51
S7: Well, as the Prime Minister refused to do the other
19:53
S7: day to make comment in this regard as well. I
19:56
S7: don't know, David, because I'm not a scientist, and I
19:58
S7: can't tell you whether.
19:59
S2: That's obviously got some downside for him in his conservative
20:02
S2: base if he is to say that. However, he didn't
20:05
S2: even get close to saying the kinds of things that
20:07
S2: Margaret Thatcher has said in the past. Or I think
20:10
S2: John Howard has also had a good answer at times.
20:13
S2: Rupert Murdoch used to say, you know, it would be
20:16
S2: a good idea to give the planet the benefit of
20:17
S2: the doubt on climate change. There are ways to answer
20:20
S2: that question, and I think it's connected to what we
20:22
S2: were just talking about. If for three years you only
20:26
S2: talk to Sky news at night or a conservative support base,
20:30
S2: you never get asked, do you think climate change is real?
20:34
S2: Maybe he should have done a few more press conferences,
20:37
S2: doorstops a wider range of media interviews, and he'd be
20:41
S2: better prepared for these. It's a simple question, and he
20:44
S2: was not prepared.
20:45
S1: I know it's sort of like a batting practice issue
20:48
S1: or something. James, I just want to go to you
20:50
S1: quickly because I watched him sort of struggle with his
20:53
S1: answer on that and thought, well, you know, there goes
20:56
S1: any hope of sort of winning back or even increasing
20:59
S1: margins in the teal seats. And young voters in particular,
21:02
S1: I think would have been, you know, a little bit
21:04
S1: skeptical of, you know, a senior male politician who hopes
21:08
S1: to be prime minister, not being able to sort of
21:09
S1: fulsomely embrace the effects of climate change or acknowledge them.
21:13
S1: That was just my take. What do you think?
21:15
S3: Look, I think I'm going to be a slight contrarian here.
21:18
S3: You could argue that perhaps he's giving the absolutely correct answer,
21:24
S3: which is just. I will be guided by the science,
21:27
S3: you know, respect the science. It will do what the
21:29
S3: science says. But it didn't feel like that at all,
21:32
S3: did it?
21:33
S1: I mean, isn't that a bit of a tricky way
21:34
S1: of saying it? Because the science is settled? Yeah. And
21:37
S1: so he could have just said, I abide by the science,
21:39
S1: which is settled and tells us that these extreme events
21:43
S1: are becoming more extreme and more frequent because of climate change.
21:46
S3: That's right.
21:47
S1: It was sort of it was a tricky answer, I think.
21:49
S3: Yeah. I think that's right. And it just it felt
21:52
S3: like there was a kind of a calculation there that.
21:55
S3: Oh that's right. Hang on. I've got Nats on my
21:58
S3: right flank who really don't think this is a real thing.
22:01
S3: And I've got that guy in that seat somewhere who's
22:04
S3: also a skeptic, and I have to sort of balance
22:07
S3: or calculate my answer just so.
22:10
S1: I mean, but this goes back to the strategy because
22:12
S1: those people are already in the tent. Where else are
22:14
S1: they going to go? It's they're not they're not the
22:16
S1: people that you have to woo on to your side.
22:18
S2: I think it's another example of and maybe we've canvassed this,
22:22
S2: but not reaching out enough to voters that he really needs.
22:25
S2: We've seen the coalition get get really quite chippy about
22:29
S2: what the teal candidates are doing in those former Liberal seats.
22:33
S2: They don't like some of the climate 200 tactics, and
22:35
S2: they don't like some of the independent campaign methods and
22:38
S2: so forth. So there's, you know, some negative stories about
22:42
S2: about the teals. We haven't really seen a value proposition
22:45
S2: from the liberals to those teal voters to get them back.
22:49
S2: And climate change is kind of a part of that.
22:51
S2: What is the value proposition? Come back to us. We
22:54
S2: know that you left us three years ago, but we
22:57
S2: really want you back and this is what we offer you.
23:00
S2: I haven't seen that positive message, and that's why it
23:03
S2: now looks increasingly challenging for the liberals in some of
23:06
S2: those teal seats.
23:07
S1: Yeah, I know I would agree. And it is most puzzling.
23:10
S1: I sort of can't wait for election night now, because
23:12
S1: even though the election campaign itself has been a little
23:15
S1: bit dull in terms of the policy offering, particularly the
23:19
S1: election night itself, is going to be really exciting. Um, anyway,
23:22
S1: we've got a few weeks until then, and let's not
23:24
S1: get ahead of ourselves. Gentlemen, thank you so much for
23:27
S1: joining me. I really appreciate it. It was fun.
23:29
S3: Pleasure, Jack.
23:30
S2: Thanks, Jackie. And there is a long way to go.
23:32
S1: Yeah. Today's episode was produced by Julia Katzel. Our executive
23:41
S1: producer is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head
23:44
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24:07
S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.