Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Before Wittenberg: Luther's Erfurt Years and the Weight of Judgment

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Before Wittenberg: Luther's Erfurt Years and the Weight of Judgment · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in
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  Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when
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  Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged,
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  Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with
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  Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to
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  Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more
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  Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if
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  Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series,
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  Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places,
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  Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping
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  Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So
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  Speaker 1: let's get started. We're continuing the conversation with regard to Luther,
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to talk today about his time in
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  Speaker 1: a place called Airfoot and Airfort is the I'll Greg
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  Speaker 1: could sort of explain it a bit more. But even
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  Speaker 1: when we do our German Reformation tours, we stop off
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  Speaker 1: in Airfort, we get to see the Augustinian monastery where
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  Speaker 1: Luther was staying and stayed for a time and really
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  Speaker 1: received a fair amount of his theological training. And so
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  Speaker 1: today we're going to talk a little bit about what
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  Speaker 1: led him to Airfoot, what was the you know, the
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  Speaker 1: transformation that sort of took place to prompt him to
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  Speaker 1: join a monastery because he wasn't headed in this direction,
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  Speaker 1: and then also how life in that in that Augustinian
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  Speaker 1: monastery really shaped his posture toward the world. Maybe, so great,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Happy to have you. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: let's dive in a bit give Let's let's start maybe
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  Speaker 1: with a little bit of a rewind and give people
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  Speaker 1: just a sense of, you know, where we're at in
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  Speaker 1: the Luther's story, and then we'll talk a little about
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  Speaker 1: about this transformative vow that that Luther makes that leads
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  Speaker 1: him into the Augustinian Monastery.
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  Speaker 2: And really the fundamental question that Luther is really struggling
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  Speaker 2: with is what's going to happen when I die? Or
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  Speaker 2: if we stated it theologically, how can I stand before
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  Speaker 2: a holy God? And you remember we spent some time
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  Speaker 2: talking about God's or or or humans understanding of God
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  Speaker 2: during that time that we went through things like plagues
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  Speaker 2: and the evasiveness of death, and God is viewed as
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  Speaker 2: perpetually angry and God is one who is righteous judge.
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  Speaker 2: Even Jesus is seen as a righteous judge. So Luther
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  Speaker 2: has this sense of foreboding that God is sort of
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  Speaker 2: this angry being that's almost looking for reasons to hit him.
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  Speaker 2: And he's got this overwhelming sense of guilt and anxiety,
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  Speaker 2: and this has been driven by he has a friend
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  Speaker 2: that dies and where is he? Where is he? Where
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  Speaker 2: did he go? You know what happened to me? He
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  Speaker 2: had an accident where he actually stuck himself in the
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  Speaker 2: leg with a dagger, almost bled to death. And so
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  Speaker 2: all these things are coming to head. Now he's a
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  Speaker 2: student at the University of Airfort. He's completed as BA
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  Speaker 2: there and now he is sort of making a trip
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: and sort of the lightning point in this to be
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: as you'll see make the story work traveling, and there's
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: various versions of the story. He's either on horseback or walking,
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  Speaker 2: but regardless, he's in the middle of a storm and
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  Speaker 2: he's terrified. Lightning apparently strikes close to him. He either
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  Speaker 2: falls to the ground or is not to the ground,
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  Speaker 2: And at least the story is, he cries out to
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  Speaker 2: the patron saint of miners. As you remember we talked about,
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  Speaker 2: his father was a miner, Saint Anne's, who was supposedly
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  Speaker 2: the mother of Mary's mother. If I'm remembering the story,
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  Speaker 2: I'm raised a Baptist, so I'm a little weak on saints,
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  Speaker 2: so excuse me. So Saint Anne's helped me and I
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  Speaker 2: will become a monk. And there's an old But when
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  Speaker 2: the biographers of Martin Luther, Roland Baton wrote a biography
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  Speaker 2: in the fifties or sixties called Here I Stand, and
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  Speaker 2: I remember seeing a video with Baton and he says
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  Speaker 2: he cried out to Saint Anne's. Saint Anne's helped me,
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  Speaker 2: and I will become a monk, and he said, and
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  Speaker 2: she did and he did so he he he makes
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  Speaker 2: this vow to Saint Anne and uh, unlike a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people who makes vows to God in fox holes
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  Speaker 2: or this or that the other, he actually follows through
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  Speaker 2: on this thing. So he goes with a group of
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  Speaker 2: his university friends, bangs on the door of the Augustinian
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  Speaker 2: Monastery and air for you know, let me in, Let
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  Speaker 2: me in. Why I'm going to become a monk, And
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  Speaker 2: they're like, don't do this. His father is going to
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  Speaker 2: be absolutely utterly lived because Luther is very smart. When
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  Speaker 2: we've talked about that before too as well. The guys,
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  Speaker 2: this is going to be his golden ticket, right, there
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  Speaker 2: is no social security. Your kids are your social security.
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  Speaker 2: He's supposed to be a lawyer. Yeah, he's brilliant, and
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  Speaker 2: he ends up becoming a monk and he becomes the
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  Speaker 2: worst kind of monk. You're supposed to be a Dominican.
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  Speaker 2: These are kind of like the you know, the hang
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  Speaker 2: out with the royalty and the upsale all this stuff.
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  Speaker 2: But he becomes what's an Augustinian And these are called
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  Speaker 2: begging monks, which means literally what it says, how do
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  Speaker 2: they make their money? They go out and beg So
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  Speaker 2: you can imagine this. You know, I sent my kid
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  Speaker 2: to university, He's gonna be my meal ticket. And now
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  Speaker 2: people don't even like these people because they just walk
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  Speaker 2: around begging for money. That's how they do things. So
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  Speaker 2: he ends up in this in this monastery. And it's
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  Speaker 2: crazy because the plague, if I remember the story right,
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  Speaker 2: the plague is going around. He's supposed to be. They
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  Speaker 2: put you in a temporary thing for I think it's
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  Speaker 2: either two weeks or two months, I can't remember exactly,
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  Speaker 2: but the plague is going around, and they almost kind
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  Speaker 2: of forget he's in there. I'm in there longer than
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  Speaker 2: he's supposed to be. And uh you know that Oh yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that that Martin Luther kids up there. Bang, you still
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  Speaker 2: want to do this? Yes, yeah, yeah, I still want
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  Speaker 2: to do this. So so there he is. He becomes
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  Speaker 2: a monk. So so that's that's how this gets there,
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  Speaker 2: and what's driving him James, is this, how can I
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  Speaker 2: stand before a holy God? How can I get God
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  Speaker 2: off my back? How can I get this clarity about
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  Speaker 2: what's going to happen to you when I die?
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  Speaker 1: So when we talk about this, because I think it's
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of difficult when we think about our modern
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  Speaker 1: day religious landscape, he don't really religion has been a
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  Speaker 1: little bit more pushed to the side. It's nowhere near
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  Speaker 1: his central to our imagination. Yes, you know, just generally
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  Speaker 1: in society. And so Martin Luther is going to Aerford.
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  Speaker 1: He's trying to earn his BA in where he has
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  Speaker 1: earned his BA in law, which I don't know whether
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  Speaker 1: you're I don't know whether there's an intersection between law
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  Speaker 1: and theology back then, or you know how much religious
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  Speaker 1: studies they would have taken. But point is, he's not
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  Speaker 1: studying theology, he's not studying biblical studies or something like that.
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  Speaker 1: He's studying the law. And so like, how did that
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  Speaker 1: religious realm function to shape and form him? So that
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  Speaker 1: this question was top of I get the the perils
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  Speaker 1: of just daily life that in that period that's that's
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  Speaker 1: got that's a component of it. But where is he
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  Speaker 1: linking in to the church, And how prominent is the
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  Speaker 1: church at this point in the lives of just everyday
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  Speaker 1: folk in Germany.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, the your entire existence is defined by the church.
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  Speaker 2: So the calendar is driven by the church. Everything is
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  Speaker 2: driven by the Church. So all you know, it's it's
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  Speaker 2: a function of saints, stay's, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: So it's hard for us as secularists to even begin
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  Speaker 2: to process how deeply wound religion is in the culture.
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  Speaker 2: Everything is marked by the religious culture. Everything is driven
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  Speaker 2: by that. There is no Martin Luther King Day or
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  Speaker 2: Independence Day or secular vacation or any of that sort
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  Speaker 2: of stuff. It is all a function of religious holiday,
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  Speaker 2: religious ritual, and the belief in the life to come.
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  Speaker 2: I've said this before, but I'll say it again because
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  Speaker 2: it's absolutely central. Medievalists believe more in the life to
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  Speaker 2: come than this life, partly because this life was awful
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  Speaker 2: for most of them. Yes, we have no idea. We
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  Speaker 2: think our life is hard, We have no idea what
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  Speaker 2: it was like for the average person, and so they
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  Speaker 2: have this overwhelming sense my death is. As we've talked
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  Speaker 2: about before, death is everywhere. There's no way around it.
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  Speaker 2: It's in your face. So the overwhelming question is not
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  Speaker 2: going to be how can I be happy and have
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  Speaker 2: a fulfilling job. The overwhelming question is how am I
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  Speaker 2: What's going to happen to me when my inevitable death comes?
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  Speaker 2: And these are all religious questions. They are we don't
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  Speaker 2: think about death. I mean, I was talking to my
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  Speaker 2: wife and some friends. I'm sixty eight now. I started
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  Speaker 2: to think about death when I was fifty, even sixty.
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  Speaker 2: But now I have friends that have died, I have
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  Speaker 2: friends that have illnesses that are potentially life threatening. Things
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  Speaker 2: don't work the way they used to. And suddenly questions
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  Speaker 2: that I never bothered to think about. Yeah, and they're
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  Speaker 2: religious questions. Luther is dealing with these as a young person. Now.
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  Speaker 2: He has a far more sensitive conscience than most people.
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  Speaker 2: We have to acknowledge that. But he is not untypical
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  Speaker 2: in the sense that he is religiously minded, and so
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  Speaker 2: that they would have it is so it's hard for
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  Speaker 2: us to understand how deeply wound this is in their life.
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  Speaker 2: The church is the center of everything, it's it's the
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  Speaker 2: geographic center of the town. It's the highest building. Everything
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  Speaker 2: revolves around it. Things are name, the names are religious,
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  Speaker 2: the days are religious. It's it's just it's hard to
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  Speaker 2: even explain how deeply wound this is in life.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, any uh, any insight into why he ends up
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  Speaker 1: using the Augustinian monastery as opposed to the other monasteries.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, is this just sort of Luther kind of
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  Speaker 1: deciding to punish himself. I mean, does he see something
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  Speaker 1: in the Augustinian poverty that is more aligned the way
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  Speaker 1: he's struggling to understand how he can stand before Holy God.
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  Speaker 2: That's a good question, James, that I should know the
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  Speaker 2: answer to, but I don't. But I'd like to thank
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  Speaker 2: you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate why I
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  Speaker 2: should not be on this program.
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  Speaker 1: It's a discussion, so I mean, we can have a
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  Speaker 1: little bit of we can have a little speculation.
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  Speaker 2: My guess is though, if I was to take a guess,
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  Speaker 2: and I may have known this at one point in time,
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  Speaker 2: but as I noted, I'm sixty eight and I do
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  Speaker 2: have a mind like a steel sieve, so that would
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  Speaker 2: make sense. Yeah, he is in the mode and that
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  Speaker 2: that is perfect in the culture that the way to
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  Speaker 2: get right with God is to beat yourself up. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and deprivation asceticism is deeply wound in religious practice. This
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  Speaker 2: is as anti prosperity gospel as you can get in
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  Speaker 2: that sense.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to think through some of the structure
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  Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church that you know we've talked through,
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  Speaker 1: so you do tend to see almost like a if
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  Speaker 1: I can describe it this way, a tearing of society
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  Speaker 1: between the upper echelon who have unique insight and almost
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  Speaker 1: access to these spiritual matters and can sort of they
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  Speaker 1: hold the keys of the kingdom, so to speak, and
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  Speaker 1: they're loosing and binding, you know, at their whim versus
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  Speaker 1: the rest of the people who are sort of the
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  Speaker 1: rank and file, and they're just going along and not
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  Speaker 1: even understanding what's red and Latin masses, but they're just
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  Speaker 1: following the instructions of their leaders so that they are
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  Speaker 1: quote unquote covered and sufficiently forgiven such that they will
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  Speaker 1: eventually minimize their time in purgatory and make it then
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  Speaker 1: ultimately into heaven. Yes, so yeah, go ahead, no, no,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: go ahead.
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  Speaker 2: Well, so, I mean, you know, we've talked about these
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  Speaker 2: in earlier broadcasts. But the idea here is the conformity,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and this is Plato's republic, this is the philosopher king.
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  Speaker 2: It is their job to be the brains, that is
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  Speaker 2: the elite, and it's the people's job to just sort
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of do what they're told and let them think for
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  Speaker 2: them kind of thing. This is pervasive. Now. It's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: I happen to be teaching the Sunday school class yesterday
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  Speaker 2: and we were doing the New Testament survey. But a
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  Speaker 2: question from the Old Testament came up, and a fellow,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: you know fairly well, Dan Block, happens to be in
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  Speaker 2: my Sunday school class. So anytime an Old Testament question
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  Speaker 2: comes up, or as he calls it, a purchase, yes,
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  Speaker 2: I always, I always defer to doctor Block. You're you're
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you know, our listeners can look up doctor Block and
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: see these profiled old Testaments.
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  Speaker 1: It's not a bad move at all.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, so. But he made a comment
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  Speaker 2: in passing that I thought, Aha. He said, in the
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: ancient world, the king is responsible for the religious He
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: used the word cult. What he meant by that is
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  Speaker 2: the religious ritual, liturgy, et cetera, et cetera. The king
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  Speaker 2: is responsible that's still the case in the Middle Ages.
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  Speaker 2: The government is responsible to protect, not to be the church,
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  Speaker 2: but to protect the church and to ensure the church
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  Speaker 2: has everything that it needs to do its job, because,
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  Speaker 2: as we've mentioned before, the society's viability is dependent on
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  Speaker 2: its relationship to God. To the extent that God is
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  Speaker 2: pleased with the society, the society will continue to function.
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  Speaker 2: And God is pleased with the society when they behave
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  Speaker 2: according to His rules. Whose job is that, That's the
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  Speaker 2: church's job. So it's the job of the state to
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  Speaker 2: make sure the church has free reign to keep God happy.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe that'll help us understand how deeply wound religion is
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  Speaker 2: in the society. This is not a secular state. This
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: is Christian Europe, this is Christendom. This is the Holy
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Roman Empire that Luther is functioning in. So you know,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: we've gone over this before, but as modern secular people,
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  Speaker 2: it's very hard for us to understand it. So it's
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  Speaker 2: worth us repeating this again. This is all in the water,
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  Speaker 2: and it's all part of a world that Luther is
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  Speaker 2: functioning in. It's very hard for us to understand.
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  Speaker 1: It is really interesting though, I think that Luther you know,
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  Speaker 1: to your point, a lot of times when people make
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  Speaker 1: a vow, they don't actually follow through with it, right.
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  Speaker 1: The vow in Foxhoule is really just well I didn't
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  Speaker 1: really mean that, God, but thanks for getting me out
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  Speaker 1: of there. Now I'll take my life back. But Luther,
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  Speaker 1: I think him keeping his vow moving toward the Augustinian Monastery,
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  Speaker 1: spending that time of you know, quote unquote testing so
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  Speaker 1: that they are sure that he's ready to make this commitment,
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  Speaker 1: which was not trivial. You know, they're they're sort of
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  Speaker 1: for the folks. I'll explain it in the way that
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  Speaker 1: I think about it. It's almost like you're in a
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: holding tank, man, You're you're sort of, you know, an
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  Speaker 1: anti chamber waiting to get into the real party. And
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Luther stuck in this ante chamber for longer than most.
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  Speaker 1: And they come back and they decide and they ask him,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: are you still ready to come in? And he's like, yeah,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I really like to come in. And so he's got
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: this sort of interesting disposition about him that you called it,
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  Speaker 1: I think, a sensitive, more sensitive conscience than many. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: but he's got this real disposition about him that lends
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  Speaker 1: itself to I would say not even to the religious
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: life of the time, but almost to recognizing the faults
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: of the religious system at the time.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, Luther, this is going to sound strange, but Luther,
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  Speaker 2: even in that context, in that context, takes God more
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  Speaker 2: seriously than most. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's going
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: to be one of the issues. They're going to tell him,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: you're taking this too seriously. And he's fair, you out
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  Speaker 2: of your mind? Who you know what person in the
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  Speaker 2: right mind says you take You're you're serious about eternal damnation?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 2: This is not a This is not a lie. A
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: you know, are the Bears going to win the playoffs? Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about eternal damnation here. And they're saying, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, relax, What do you mean relax? You're working,
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  Speaker 2: You're obsessed with this? Yeah, why wouldn't I be? So
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  Speaker 2: it is fair to note that he is even beyond
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  Speaker 2: what normal people are in that in that context. But
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  Speaker 2: but as a culture as a whole, they are way
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  Speaker 2: more oriented that way than we are.
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  Speaker 1: Right, the air they breathe is far more religious than
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the air we breathe. It's I like the way Charles
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Taylor talks about this. He says, you know, secular society
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  Speaker 1: is really just a society that makes it more difficult
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  Speaker 1: for us to have faith in the divine. It's a paraphrase,
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  Speaker 1: but the general idea is that in secular societies, it's
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  Speaker 1: not like we've abandoned any notion of the sacred. It's
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  Speaker 1: just that believing those things becomes more and more difficult
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  Speaker 1: within a secular society, whereas in the medieval period that
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: we're talking about, these things aren't questioned. The assumption is
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  Speaker 1: that they're there. It's not one option among many, it's
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  Speaker 1: this is the way the world works, and so they're
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, they're in the water and
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: it's wet, you know, kind of thing. So the vowel
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: he makes this valley joins the Augustinian monastery at Air
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: for this is around what fifteen oh five is somewhere
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: in that range, and then ultimately he's going to be
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: at that monastery for how many years? Do you have
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: any idea?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: I have? Ten? Fifteen? I mean, I'd have to look.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: He goes to Wittenbergen fifteen seventeen, I think, and.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: So then he's there before fifteen seventeen, isn't he Hold on, let.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Me double check Okay, to get our dates right. Yeah,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: we got our places right, but the dates are always
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: hard for me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: It's the same with me. I don't have it on
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: this sheet. You want to pause this for a second.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: No, it's all right. Well, we can always clarify it later.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: But the point is he's he's there long enough to
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: provide to develop a sufficient degree of training because he
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't have his degree in this. And I'm assuming maybe
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming too much, but when they go to these monasteries,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I mean they are learning theology. They're not just practicing
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the faith, they're learning theology h in order to do something.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Uh there, Okay. Their daily life is defined by the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: responsibilities of prayer, taking care of the the house, you know. Okay,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: somebody's got to grow potatoes, somebody's got to the roof,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: somebody's gotta But they have regulated prayer and and depending
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: on the order, they have other responsibilities which may involve, uh,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: taking care of some of them. For example, this one isn't,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: but there were hospital orders, other kinds of things. This
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: order is primarily prayer. Scripture. Uh, there would have been
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: reading of scripture, reading of Augustine. There would have been
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: copying manuscripts, studying that sort of stuff, so and begging.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: When he's making that transition though, from the Augustinian Monastery
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to Wittenberg, because he does go from Airfort to Wittenberg.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: That is correct. And there he goes. In Wittenberg, he
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: goes to do what we would call a doctoral work.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: He goes to study sacred scripture, and he does his
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: doctorate at the at a new university, the University of Wittenberg.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: And there he is working through the scriptures and I'm
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: trying to get I'm still working to find this date
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: here for Luther, but we'll find it at some point.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: But it's there that he is. It's there that he is. Well,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: let me back it up. Why does he go to
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: vitten He goes to Wittenberg because he has a confessor,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: or what we would use as a mentor. His name
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: is Jova von Stalpitz, and von Stalpez is deeply concerned
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: about this young fellow because he is just literally beating
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: himself to death. He is constantly praying for hours. He
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: is he goes to confession for all kinds of Okay, well,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: it looks like he goes. I found this, So let
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: me interrupt this year around fifteen twelve, he goes to Wittenberg.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: That looks like twelve, ok. And what's happening James is
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: he is. He goes in hoping to find peace with God.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: It doesn't get better, It gets worse. It gets worse
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: because all the things that are supposed to make it
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: better aren't working. So, for example, just a couple illustrations,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: he finds that he is increasingly driven by this sense
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: of what he calls the curve of the self into
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: the selfishness. He wants to love God purely and simply
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: because of who God is. What he finds out is
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: he only can love God in terms of what God
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: will do for him. So it's not a disinterested love.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: It's a self interested lofe. I eat what's in it
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: for me? Yeah? Yeah, And he's trying to break this.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: So what does he do. Well, he starts to beat himself.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: He literally goes into you know, he'll beat him. They
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: find him. He's beating himself to a pulp. He starves himself,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: he destroys his gi track. He just he's starving himself
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and they're living on a starvation diet anyway. Yeah, and
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: he's going to confession, and he's going to confession, and
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: at one point he's in confession for eight hours and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: he's driving vun stop. It's nuts because here, here's how
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Luther's processing this. Here's the law, Love the Lord your
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: God with all your heart's soul, mind and strength. And
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: the second is under the first, love your neighbor as yourself. Okay,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: if you really believe that, if that's the minimum, how
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: long are you going to be in confession?
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's you know, what he's trying to do
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: is confess all this stuff and then he leaves and he, oh,
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: I forgot one thing, and so this thing is It's like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: the best way I can illustrate it is when you
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: get stuck in the mud or stuck in snow.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: And you just keep on pushing harder on the gas pedal,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: and all it does is make the car sink deeper.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: And you just keep pushing harder and harder, and the
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: smoke is flying off the tires and the car is
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: sinking and sinking and sinking and sinking, and you just
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: keep pushing harder and harder on the gas pedal. That's
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: what's happening. James and von Stoppus finally says, I got
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: to find some way to break this. So first he
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: sends him to Row. We can talk about that at
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: some other point, but then he eventually sends him to Wittenberg.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Let's pause there because I think in the next episode
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: of the next segment, what we want to really talk
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: about is how I'm interested to find out is there
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: a mismatch between the practices that were happening in the
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Augustinian monastery and some of the teachings that we'd find
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: in Augustine. So you know, I've read some Augustine you
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: don't really see. Yes, you see some asceticism that was
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: somewhat common in the day anyway, you still see it
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: today in some theological work, But it wasn't this sort
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: of amped up sort of asceticism that Luther is practicing,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: and it seems to even be practiced within the monastery,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: And so I kind of want to talk a little
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: bit about that, And then I do want to talk
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: about this sort of contrast between what he finds in
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Rome and what he finds in Wittenburg. And so why
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: don't we come back and talk about that next segment? Great,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: all right, everybody, Well, Catchen just a minute on the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: next segment of Thinking Christian. I just want to take
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If
• 31:08
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• 31:10
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• 31:14
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