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Tuna Sustainability and The Work of the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation · How To Protect The Ocean

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  How much can an organization that's involved in tuna fishing and making tuna
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  fishing sustainable get done in one year?
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  Well, that's what we're gonna talk about on today's episode because I
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  have the president of the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation,
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  Susan Jackson, on the episode today to talk about all the work that they did
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  in 2024 and what they plan on doing in 2025 based on the successes and
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  the challenges that they face in 2024.
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  We're gonna talk about not only about transparency, we're gonna
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  talk about advocacy and policy.
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  We're gonna talk about financial commitment to science and their
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  commitment to science in general.
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  Stakeholder engagement workshops, electronic monitoring and compliance.
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  There's so much that we're gonna talk about on today's episode.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey everybody.
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  Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find
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  out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean,
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  and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.
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  On today's episode, we're gonna be talking to the president of the International
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  Seafood Sustainability Foundation, the ISSF, Susan Jackson, who is here to talk
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  about not only how she became president of the ISSF and for the last 15 years,
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  what they've been able to accomplish, but what they were able to accomplish
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  in 2024 last year, talking about the annual report, and you're like, Andrew,
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  why are you talking about annual report?
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  They're boring.
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  Like it's just a mouthpiece for the organization to talk to their
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  funders and stuff like that.
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  But this is not it.
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  At all.
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  Susan comes with the receipts of what they were able to do.
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  They have a small staff.
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  They were able to accomplish a lot, not only with just the staff, that
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  they have collaborators on all fronts of the supply chain in sustainable
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  seafood, in tuna fishing in general.
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  And I think it's amazing.
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  This conversation really ignited my hope for sustainability, my hope
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  for collaboration, but also my hope for private sector funding, being
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  able to accomplish so much more than just waiting around for funding
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  to come around, which is not very available these days in these times.
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  And a lot of organizations, nonprofit organizations are
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  suffering because of lack of funding.
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  They can't get the work that they need done.
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  ISSF has funding.
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  From private sector that are willing to say, let's put
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  our money where our mouth is.
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  Let's be able to make this more sustainable.
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  Let's work with not only fishers, but with vessel makers.
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  You know, let's work with RFMOs.
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  Let's work with scientists.
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  Let's work with advocacy people.
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  Let's work with policy makers and government.
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  This is the legit, this is what goes on in ocean conservation,
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  in fisheries management that we never get to talk about.
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  We're talking about on this episode, and that's why I have this podcast is to talk
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  about these wonderful things that are being done that nobody ever hears about.
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  And I think that's really important to talk about.
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  So getting an annual report that's just put on a website and only
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  available for the people who go to that website who know about that website
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  has now transformed into a podcast where you get to hear about this.
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  And I'll tell you, Susan comes with so much energy.
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  I just love it.
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  So here is the interview with Susan Jackson, president of the International
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  Seafood Sustainability Foundation, talking about their 2024 annual report.
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  There's so much in here you're going want to hear all of it.
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  Thank you so much for joining us and I can't wait to talk to you after.
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  Enjoy the interview.
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  Hey Susan.
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  Welcome to the head of Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk about the International Seafood Sustainability
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  Foundation's annual report?
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  Hey, Andrew.
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  Yes, I absolutely am.
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  Thanks for having me here today.
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  You bet.
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  I'm, I'm very excited for this, and I know it's weird to say I'm excited about, uh,
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  talking about an annual report, because a lot of times those get published and
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  it's, you know, it's like a white paper and a lot of people will go through it and
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  just be like, oh, this is kind of cool.
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  But I always go through these reports and I'm always just like, how in the heck
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  did you get all of this done in one year?
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  So, we're gonna be focusing on the 20, 24 year, but of course, we're gonna be
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  talking a little later on about, you know, we're already halfway through 2025.
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  So, you know, what are the primary goals for 2025?
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  Building on the successes, some of the challenges that you may
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  have faced in 2024 to go to 2025.
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  But I think it's interesting to talk about, you know, your organization's
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  work, uh, the ability to get stuff done, uh, and what you're able to get done.
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  So we we're gonna talk a lot of things like talking about supply chains
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  and fads and all this kind of stuff.
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  It's, it's gonna be pretty exciting.
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  But before we get into all of that, Susan, why don't you just let us
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  know who you are and what you do.
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  Thanks.
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  Yes.
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  I'm Susan Jackson and I am the president of the International
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  Seafood Sustainability Foundation, or ISSF as we call ourselves.
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  I love it now, uh, to be the president of ISSF.
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  What kind of background did you have?
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  Like how did this become like your career?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Where did it all start?
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  Yeah.
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  Well, it all started with me being, what I like to say, a real lawyer.
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  Um, I actually practiced real law, uh, for, um, gosh, about
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  12 years and That's awesome.
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  A, a number of them or in-house with the HJ Hines Company
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  who owns stares at the time.
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  Okay.
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  So, and I was assigned to the Starkest business unit, so I started working
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  in tuna in, uh, the late nineties.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  And, uh, just fell in love with it immediately.
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  It's fascinating.
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  It's global.
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  You know, I've been to.
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  A whole bunch of countries I can imagine.
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  Um, and no matter what issue speaks to your heart, tuna touches it in some way.
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  I can promise you.
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  Um, so I sort of morphed around in my tuna career from the law
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  department to the business side.
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  And then Star was a founder of ISSF and I was the point
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  person at StarKist at the time.
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  Okay.
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  And it just, uh, there were eight companies and, um, for
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  a number of reasons I was.
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  The first president of ISSF, and I've been here ever since.
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  Amazing.
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  So I'm sort of, I'm, I'm the poster child for if somebody comes knocking on your
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  door and it sounds like an interesting opportunity, say yes, because you
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  never know where it's gonna lead you.
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  Well, here, let me ask you the question, like as it, so you went
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  into corporate law, I guess, when you were, when you were becoming a lawyer.
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  Uh, what made you decide to go into corporate law As a lawyer?
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  Yeah.
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  Actually I was a litigator, believe it or not.
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  Oh, okay.
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  Okay.
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  And um, yeah, my specialty was on criminal defense and plaintiff's civil rights work.
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  Oh, interesting.
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  And yeah.
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  And so some of the cases that I did in Pittsburgh caught the eye of the
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  folks of the Heinz Law Department at the time, uh, and because they realized
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  they didn't have anybody in their law department that had actually tried a
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  case and they had a lot of litigation.
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  So it might be helpful to have someone right on their team that actually
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  knew their way around the courtroom.
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  So that's kind of, I, I learned some of the more, uh, you know, corporate
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  side of it, but I was still really doing litigation management and then.
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  Uh, the corporate side of star cast and had, had you had a lot of
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  information about tuna before that, or is this, was this more of a I
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  need to adapt, this is the, this is the company that I'm working for.
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  They're all about tuna, so I need to adapt and figure it all out.
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  And then I guess the follow up question right away to that is like,
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  how did you adapt so quickly to it?
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  I mean, when I started.
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  At Heinz.
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  Yeah.
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  I thought that light meat, tuna and white meat, tuna were like
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  different parts of the same fish.
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  That's, that's how little I knew about tuna.
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  I ate a lot of it, and I knew I liked tuna, of course, but also
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  when you go work for a conglomerate like Heinz was at the time I had.
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  Ketchup cases and tomato paste cases and pet food cases.
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  So you learned that was a fabulous part of that experience as you
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  learned so much about the business.
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  And then I became more and more and more aligned with this, um, tuna business
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  unit and started going to plants and doing procurement contracts and, um, you
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  know, other, other things at, at their facilities around the world and Right.
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  Really got a much deeper knowledge of tuna, the.
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  And, and when you started from that perspective.
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  'cause I think it's so interesting, a lot of the guests that we've had on
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  are, are come from a science background or a conservation background, and
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  they are learning it from, you know, population ecology and, and how to,
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  uh, predict populations and look at fisheries management and look at
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  sustainability from the side of science.
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  Right.
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  And looking at science-based policy, you are coming it from
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  a, a litigation standpoint.
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  You're learning about the business and the corporation, uh, and you're not getting
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  it necessarily from the science part.
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  You might learn about the science as you go along, but what was that
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  like now, especially, you know, you know, 12 years of, of working
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  with the ISSF, uh, is it 12 years?
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  Is that, that's what you said before, right?
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  Uh, 15.
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  15, sorry.
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  15 years.
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  So knowing what you know now, like, and, and what you learned, did you
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  know, a, were you learning about the sustainability, uh, maybe issues or
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  successes that Tuna was having as you were going through the process of learning
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  about the different parts of the business?
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  I was, um.
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  Back when I was running seafood procurement for STAR Kiss as part of
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  my maneuvering through the corporate world, it was actually the procurement
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  team at Star Kiss that was very active on the US delegation to the tuna
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  regional fishery management meetings.
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  So very early on, like within my first month, I think I went to,
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  uh, Apia in Samoa in the middle of the western Central Pacific.
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  Yeah.
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  To a meeting a, a big tuna RFMO meeting, which was the first time I, I learned also
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  about how tuna are managed because Right.
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  Obviously it's very important for tuna companies to have a tuna supply.
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  And so part of learning about the business also included learning about
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  tuna management and then tuna science.
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  That's incredible.
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  That's so cool.
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  And then now you've been working, so when you got the opportunity
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  to be like president of ISSF, what was your first reaction to, was
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  this something that you've been.
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  Had been thinking about, or I guess like, I guess ISSF was created,
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  they asked you to become president.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Um, were you part of the creation of ISSF?
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  Yes.
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  Like, were you part of those conversations and, and like what made you lead towards
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  this is what you wanted to do, you know, full-time from now on, it was the
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  opportunity to really start something new.
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  Uh, you know, when we started, we had eight founders, right.
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  Um, and roughly at the time we estimated they were about 50% of
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  the tuna that was purchased went through one of those eight companies.
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  So it was a nice number where you could.
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  Heard the cat, so to speak, and develop a vision for a new organization, but also
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  you were meaningful at the very beginning.
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  Right.
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  They were major purchasers of every species and stock of
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  tuna except bluefin globally.
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  So we started with the global footprint, started working in every ocean, um,
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  right, right from the beginning.
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  We also had a fabulous tuna scientist, Dr. James Joseph, who mm-hmm.
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  Um, died about two years after we started, but he was our founder and
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  he developed for us a scientific advisory committee with all the
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  best tuna scientists in the world.
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  Again, from a geographic dispersal and right.
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  That, that was fabulous.
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  Um, and I, I do often think back to those days when it was me, half of a
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  communications person and you know, like 40% of Jim Joseph saving the world.
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  And it was really fun.
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  Um, and since then, obviously we've grown from eight founders
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  to now 24 companies still global.
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  Um, we have five full-time scientists on staff, two communicators on
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  staff, plus Taylor's team, and, you know, some other, uh, consultants.
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  And then we have some great, uh, policy experts as well who help us
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  with our advocacy and outreach at the RFMOs who have diplomatic backgrounds.
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  Right.
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  So it was, it really was that thrill of, of seeing that we
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  could do something meaningful.
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  Um, but yet started up.
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  And so this is always an interesting aspect for me as someone who doesn't
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  have a lot of experience through the, the private sector and starting
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  organizations such as the ISSF, where that you're focusing in on sustainability.
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  It's in the word.
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  And, and a lot of people may look at something like where companies get
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  together to find, to, to put together an organization like this, and they probably
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  wonder about conflict of interest.
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  Like these are companies who want tuna, they want to focus on catching tuna,
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  but then they've got sustainability in there, they've got seafood in there, and
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  they've got these, these keywords that are really important to a lot of people
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  that associate it with conservation.
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  How do you, how does an organization like yourself where, where you come
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  from a corporate world where they're catching tuna and you're working with
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  a lot of different communities around the world, as you mentioned, you
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  have representation from around the world, scientists around the world.
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  You know, arguably the best experts in the world.
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  And you, you're balancing the sustainability with the ability to
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  still have these companies grow, uh, in terms of, of economic prosperity.
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  How does that, what, what's that balance like?
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  Was that a, a tough thing to do to, to, to have that balance?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Yes.
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  And you forgot a really other important factor, which is
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  competition law, antitrust law.
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  In the US we call it the rest of the world.
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  Okay.
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  Calls it competition law, you know?
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  Right.
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  Anytime you get competitors planning to do something, um, you have to
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  make sure it's done correctly.
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  Ah, interesting.
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  Okay.
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  The eight founders were really visionary.
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  They knew that tuna stocks, I should say we knew right.
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  Um, that tuna stocks needed to be healthy.
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  'cause if you didn't have healthy tuna stocks, you weren't
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  gonna have a business for law.
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  Of course.
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  Right.
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  They knew that we needed scientific advice and we needed to do what the
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  scientists said, and we needed to help the governments and the regional fisheries
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  management organizations that manage tuna follow the advice of the scientists.
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  Mm. We could help get the science more data, we could help make the
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  science better, but we should also be.
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  Urging the governments to follow the scientific advice.
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  When we started, there was this breakpoint where one of the regional
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  fisheries management organizations had met and failed seven times to
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  adopt a management measure that the sci, there was no dispute.
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  The scientists were saying, you need to do this, and seven meetings
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  later, they still hadn't done it.
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  So we were at a point where it was clear that something had to be done.
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  Um, the companies knew that something had to be done.
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  They were motivated to do it.
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  We had great scientists.
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  The companies knew from day one the science was gonna tell us what we
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  needed to do, but also the companies knew from day one that they couldn't
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  just say they were doing it.
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  We needed to, they needed to follow the scientific advice when they could,
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  and they needed to demonstrate to the world that they were in fact doing it.
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  It would make them more credible.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  It would also make us more credible advocates to the governments when
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  we were urging them to do something.
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  So the foundation of ISSF from the very beginning I think got a lot.
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  Right.
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  Yeah.
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  And where a lot of other initiatives have, have maybe fallen short recently, where
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  they don't share that commitment, for example, to clearly demonstrating that
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  they're doing what they needed to do.
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  Mm-hmm.
• 15:16
  Or where, or, and I should say also credibly or that foundation
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  of trusting the science.
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  Investing the science.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And just, you know, there have been many examples where we put
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  scientists on board vessels and we're like, go figure this out.
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  And they come back and they're like, yeah, we figured that out,
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  but we found another problem.
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  And we're like, okay, so what do we do about that?
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  And, and really that is the ethic of the work that we're doing.
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  Find problems, solve problems, teach fishers how to solve
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  the problems, and then get the governments to require that those.
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  Solutions to be implemented.
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  I can't tell you how refreshing it is to hear you say that.
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  Uh, from, you know, just from a corporation side, the, you know,
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  there's a, in conservation there's a big component to conservation.
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  You have the science side, you have the advocacy side and the activist side.
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  But then a, a lot of times the, uh, corporation aspect, the,
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  you know, gets either ignored or pitted against the other side.
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  Either they do it on their own or it happens just in the business that they do.
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  Uh, and, and that becomes a problem.
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  And the collaboration really.
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  Uh, makes things better.
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  It helps solve problems.
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  And the one thing that the private sector is really good
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  is solving problems quickly.
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  You know, they, you wanna solve, as you mentioned, you know,
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  sometimes, you know, science is, is, is, is very straightforward.
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  It's either you, you, you pose a question, it either answers your
• 16:41
  question the way you think it's gonna answer it, or it answers the
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  questions a complete opposite way.
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  It's gonna answer, it's pretty black and white in terms of, of of the question
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  that comes out in, in the math and the statistics that you put forward.
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  And sometimes you may like the answer and sometimes you may not like the answers
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  or it discovers a further problem.
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  And I love when you're saying it's like, oh, we found another problem.
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  We solved this, we found another problem.
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  How do we solve that?
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  Like, let's just keep solving problems as we go along to make things better.
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  It is so refreshing to hear that because I can't tell you how many times it's been
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  frustrating to hear, you know, companies realize that this could like, 'cause
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  like, let's be honest, some of the.
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  The problems that come up could impact the bottom dollars of a lot of the companies
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  that are involved in in the ISSF.
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  And that is a hindrance.
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  And you could ignore certain things and just continue to going on
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  the way things are going, which weren't working in the past.
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  Or you can say, no, no, we're gonna solve this and we're gonna figure this out.
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  We're gonna put all our minds together, which I think.
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  In, in my opinion, that's the way we, we solve problems, is everybody coming
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  together, the science, the conservation, the corporations, and they, and
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  they, they bring it together to have like a, a true sustainable solution.
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  I mean, that's the first part of sustainability.
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  So I love, and, and I just love how refreshing that is.
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  So that's just wonderful.
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  So I appreciate you.
• 17:52
  Thank you.
• 17:52
  You answering those questions right off the bat.
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  Um, it kind of, it definitely gives us a sense of where ISSF is coming
• 17:58
  from and where it wants to go.
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  Now there are a lot of programs in each, in, in each of this, and I'm
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  gonna refer people to, uh, the, the website iss, uh, do or-foundation.org.
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  And I'll put it in the show notes so people can take a look.
• 18:11
  But we're looking at tuna conservation, the fad management, the marine.
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  Ecosystem health.
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  The PVR lists, the, uh, VOSI, which I assume is tracking of
• 18:19
  ships, uh, uh, bycatch reduction.
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  There's just, it goes on and on and on, and, and illegal phishing prevention.
• 18:25
  And there's so many things that, that, that you cover, which is great.
• 18:28
  And these are your priorities and tools, and that's just amazing.
• 18:32
  And I remember before we press record, like we have a small team, but we get
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  a lot done and, uh, and I love that.
• 18:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:37
  Um, but we're gonna talk today, we're gonna focus a lot on what you did in
• 18:41
  2024, and it's the annual report that you put out, obviously every year.
• 18:45
  Uh, and there's a lot within that.
• 18:47
  So I, I want to get started if that's okay on that.
• 18:50
  Um, and I guess for, if you, when you put out these annual
• 18:54
  reports, the first question is.
• 18:55
  What do you want people to get out of this, of this report?
• 19:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:02
  I think the number one takeaway is the commitment.
• 19:05
  It's the effort and the commitment.
• 19:07
  This is not a campaigning organization, this is not, um, an advocacy organization.
• 19:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:14
  We, yes, we do a lot of talking, but we do so much more than talking.
• 19:19
  And it is all that other work that we do that makes what we say more credible.
• 19:26
  And so, and I have the same reaction and it's usually around
• 19:29
  February where I get presented the statistics from the prior year.
• 19:33
  I get exhausted when I read it.
• 19:35
  I was like, I, I knew we did a lot, but until you really see those numbers.
• 19:40
  Um, so it is the actual activity that makes our goal.
• 19:47
  Achievable and really drives the progress forward.
• 19:51
  Yeah.
• 19:51
  Um, we talked at the beginning about how important science is to us and
• 19:55
  how we're grounded in the science.
• 19:57
  Um, it's almost half of our budget.
• 20:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:00
  But that's the amount that flows through our bank account.
• 20:03
  That goes to science is a lot, but it's the multiplier effect that we bring.
• 20:09
  We work with other science organizations and we call them coordinated science
• 20:14
  projects, which means one of our scientists is a co-author or on a
• 20:18
  steering committee or part of the design last year, and that's not
• 20:22
  money that goes to our bank account.
• 20:24
  Last year, the value of that was over $13 million.
• 20:28
  Um, then we're, we're putting scientists on boats, or boats are reporting data, or
• 20:35
  they're buying equipment and we're putting scientists and they're reporting data.
• 20:39
  And so we keep track of the value of that commitment by industry participants.
• 20:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:45
  Who let, let's say, scientists fuss with what they're doing.
• 20:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:50
  The value of that last year was over $50 million.
• 20:55
  Wow.
• 20:55
  And depending upon the research program in any year, it's ranged from about
• 21:01
  30 million to over a hundred million.
• 21:03
  Um, obviously years when scientists are on board, like taking active control,
• 21:08
  that costs in kind more than if it's, Hey, buy these things, buy these materials,
• 21:15
  make biodegradable fads, deploy them in a certain way and send us the data.
• 21:20
  That's still some, um, but that's not as much of an in kind contribution.
• 21:26
  So that multiplier effect is huge.
• 21:28
  And I don't, I mean, we do real science.
• 21:31
  When I say we have five scientists on staff, yeah, they do a lot of
• 21:34
  writing and reading and attending of meetings and outreach, but they
• 21:38
  also do a lot of real science.
• 21:40
  The result of that real science.
• 21:43
  Was last year, 16 peer reviewed papers.
• 21:46
  A lot of people are happy if they do one.
• 21:48
  We had 16.
• 21:49
  Yeah.
• 21:50
  Uh, on top of that we published seven technical scientific papers
• 21:54
  ourself, and some were co-authors of 33 science papers that were submitted
• 22:02
  within the tuna regional fisheries management science ecosystem.
• 22:07
  They all have a scientific advisory body.
• 22:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:10
  And some science working groups.
• 22:12
  33 additional papers went through that.
• 22:15
  Um, we attended 56 science meetings because you know what the best
• 22:19
  advocacy is when your science or science you've done with others.
• 22:24
  It's not just us that's saying it, it's if the science committee of the RFMOs who
• 22:29
  have to take the action, recommend it.
• 22:32
  So it's really important to us to do real science in partnership with others who are
• 22:36
  leaders in the tune of scientific space.
• 22:38
  And then.
• 22:40
  Get the output of that science as part of the recommendations that that go before
• 22:46
  the RFMOs through their science bodies.
• 22:49
  Um, gotcha.
• 22:50
  I, we talked about the coordinated science.
• 22:52
  There's 36 active coordinated science projects going on right now.
• 22:57
  We did 34 in-person skippers workshops touching over 500 skippers, and then
• 23:03
  another almost 1500 reviewed last year's version of the material online.
• 23:08
  'cause I always say to the scientists, if somebody on a boat doesn't do
• 23:12
  something differently tomorrow Yep.
• 23:14
  Then they did today.
• 23:16
  Yep.
• 23:16
  We're not having an impact.
• 23:18
  So that outreach that we do, that's really robust outreach to the skippers.
• 23:22
  First we learn from them.
• 23:24
  They tell us their ideas.
• 23:25
  This their sounding board for the scientists who sometimes say, Hey, I
• 23:29
  was thinking about, and the skippers will either be like, yeah, no, or
• 23:34
  you might have something there.
• 23:35
  Right.
• 23:35
  And, but then also we're helping them keep up.
• 23:40
  Because let me tell you something.
• 23:42
  Vessel companies are also huge constituents to governments
• 23:47
  when they go to RFMO meetings.
• 23:49
  Oh really?
• 23:50
  Oh, yeah.
• 23:51
  Uh, longer than tuna companies actually.
• 23:54
  Wow.
• 23:54
  Um, so you do well if you talk to them a lot in advance and get them
• 24:01
  comfortable with your ideas, have them form a part of creating the solutions,
• 24:05
  because then when their government says to them, what do you think about this?
• 24:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:11
  You hope that they say, oh yeah, I've been doing that for three years.
• 24:14
  That's a really great thing.
• 24:16
  And then it makes it a lot easier for the governments to agree to require it so that
• 24:20
  skipper's outreach is really important.
• 24:23
  Absolutely.
• 24:24
  We have almost 2000 vessels that have volunteered to be on
• 24:29
  one of our vessel lists, which means our third party auditor.
• 24:33
  Audits them.
• 24:34
  Annual.
• 24:35
  So it's like a certification in a way, right?
• 24:37
  Not a certification.
• 24:37
  No.
• 24:38
  Okay.
• 24:38
  It it, because it's an audit, a certification would mean you could only
• 24:43
  be on there if you had all, all greens.
• 24:46
  It's an informa, it's a credible information platform.
• 24:49
  Gotcha.
• 24:50
  So it and it, but it is an annual audit Yeah.
• 24:52
  That the participating companies use.
• 24:55
  Because they can only be buying from vessels that comply with
• 24:59
  our conservation measures.
• 25:01
  But also we hope that real retailers would make use of it, other NGOs
• 25:05
  would make use of it as they're developing their retail advice.
• 25:09
  And then you mentioned our V-C-V-O-S-I.
• 25:12
  Yep.
• 25:13
  That's V stands for vessel, but in my mind V stands for voluntary.
• 25:18
  What are these vessels doing that they don't even have to be doing
• 25:21
  that are like the next wave?
• 25:23
  Are they in an MSC certified fishery?
• 25:26
  Are they voluntarily providing data?
• 25:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:29
  Are they participating in trials of experimental fad designs or are they
• 25:34
  implementing, um, bycatch mitigation?
• 25:37
  So again, these vessels undergo audits to, to demonstrate that they are on the
• 25:45
  water implementing these best practices.
• 25:48
  Reg Americas is our third party auditor and they audit our companies
• 25:52
  and they audit all the vessels.
• 25:53
  That's amazing.
• 25:54
  So let me ask this question.
• 25:56
  It's probably one of the most important questions we're gonna ask today.
• 25:58
  Uh, how did you guys figure out how to have more than 24 hours in a day?
• 26:02
  Because it sounds like you guys are doing way more than, than everybody else.
• 26:06
  Like how was this?
• 26:07
  No, we used, we used the time zones and the international
• 26:09
  dateline to our advantage.
• 26:12
  I mean, like, and, and to do those science, like to do that you said
• 26:16
  mentioned 16 peer reviewed, uh, papers that were, that were published last year.
• 26:20
  I know for some people who are not used to doing these, these peer reviewed
• 26:25
  papers or publishing peer reviewed papers, that is a, a, a, a really
• 26:29
  large number even for an organization.
• 26:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:32
  Um, you know, five scientists, uh, and, and I assume there's collaborators in
• 26:36
  there as well to, to get that published sometimes takes years to get a paper
• 26:40
  published, you know, and so to have those done, you know, you have to be efficient,
• 26:45
  but you really have to know your stuff.
• 26:46
  You really have to design.
• 26:48
  Those studies really, really well to ensure that you have
• 26:51
  the, the right information.
• 26:53
  There's not a lot of review going back and forth.
• 26:55
  'cause as, you know, as soon as the reviewers see it,
• 26:56
  they're like, no, this is good.
• 26:58
  Like, we're gonna do it.
• 26:59
  Um, how is the, like the setup?
• 27:02
  Is it just the five scientists or there a lot of collaborators with, you know,
• 27:06
  universities or colleges around the world or even other government institutions?
• 27:10
  And then how does that collaboration work?
• 27:12
  Uh, if, if that's so over, like, you know, across, like you said,
• 27:16
  time zones and, and, and cultures and, and different professions.
• 27:20
  There are absolutely a lot of other scientists.
• 27:23
  In addition to the five we have on staff, we have our scientific advisory
• 27:26
  committee that has I think nine ish.
• 27:29
  Um, and they really are the lead tuna scientist in a region.
• 27:34
  So like the Eastern Tropical Pacific, one of their scientific staff from that
• 27:40
  RFMO is, is on our science committee, for example, or the Secretary of the
• 27:45
  Pacific community who's the science provider for the W-C-F-W-C-P-F-C
• 27:49
  in the Western and Central Pacific.
• 27:51
  They're on our committee.
• 27:52
  Um, we have a bi catch expert who kind of runs the tuna group at
• 27:56
  IRDA French Research Institution.
• 28:00
  We work very closely with as D in Spain and many, many others.
• 28:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:04
  Um, and so it kind of starts with the staff.
• 28:07
  Then it goes to the sac, right?
• 28:09
  And then it goes to the organizations that they work with and through,
• 28:13
  and their partner organization.
• 28:15
  So there's absolutely a multiplier effect.
• 28:18
  I love it, but I love it when you said sometimes these things take years.
• 28:21
  I mean, that is, that is the special place where I sit because, um, you
• 28:25
  know, scientists, they take years and industry expects it to take
• 28:29
  like maybe a week if it's hard.
• 28:31
  So, you know, we, we have these kind of, yeah, yeah.
• 28:35
  Right.
• 28:36
  Um, so that's the balance, right?
• 28:40
  I, you always want to get the peer reviewed paper, but you also need to be
• 28:44
  putting out a technical report, includes something in a skipper's guidebook,
• 28:48
  and start training the skippers on it so that your science remains robust,
• 28:53
  but also you're getting that early uptake on the water that you need.
• 28:57
  I love it.
• 28:58
  I love it.
• 28:58
  Now, we, we've talked a lot about sort of like one of the, the, you know, the
• 29:01
  things that you've, you've covered and all the things that you've been able to do.
• 29:04
  Let's get a little bit more specific.
• 29:06
  So can you elaborate on, uh, key specific, like, scientific in initiatives that the
• 29:12
  ISF undertook in, in 2024 particularly, I, I really like the development of the,
• 29:16
  of the jelly fad construction guide.
• 29:18
  Yeah.
• 29:19
  Uh, can you talk a little bit about that?
• 29:20
  Sure.
• 29:21
  So the jelly fad name was inspired by watching a jellyfish.
• 29:25
  You know, if you go to the Monterey Bay Aquarium, I could spend
• 29:28
  all day in the jellyfish room.
• 29:30
  So Nice.
• 29:30
  It is so beautiful.
• 29:31
  Yeah.
• 29:32
  Um, so fads, for whatever reason, fish like to hang out around them.
• 29:38
  Could be a shady spot, could be a food chain, could be the singles bar.
• 29:41
  Nobody really knows, but, but it is what it is and we just
• 29:44
  go with that phenomena, right?
• 29:46
  Fishers realized it way back in the day when I started in tuna
• 29:50
  boats would look for birds.
• 29:53
  With a helicopter or binoculars.
• 29:55
  Yeah.
• 29:56
  And they would, because usually under the birds were a bunch of fish.
• 29:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:59
  And oftentimes in the middle of that bunch of fish was a log.
• 30:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:05
  Or a dead animal or something that sort of created this.
• 30:09
  So boats got smart and they put little radio antennas on those
• 30:13
  logs so they can find them.
• 30:15
  Again, fast forward humans being humans, they started creating
• 30:19
  them and deploying them using old phishing nets and satellite buoys.
• 30:25
  And there can be very harmful 'cause they never go away.
• 30:30
  Right.
• 30:30
  So one of the ideas that our scientists came up with was how to
• 30:36
  make them biodegradable so that they last just long enough to catch fish.
• 30:42
  Right.
• 30:42
  But not so long that they don't ever go away.
• 30:46
  And I. This project started before COVID.
• 30:50
  I, I can't, you know, COVID does weird things to your concept of time, but I know
• 30:54
  it was before COVID and we were testing, that was like 45 years ago, I think.
• 30:58
  Yeah, exactly.
• 30:58
  Yeah.
• 30:59
  Yep.
• 30:59
  We were testing in the Mediterranean Sea, different ropes and different
• 31:04
  fabrics to see how long they would last.
• 31:07
  Mm. And then started using the longest fabrics that would biodegrade
• 31:13
  in the, to look like an old fad, but there was too much stress.
• 31:18
  It was, and so they were failing.
• 31:19
  And so then one of our scientists said, Hey, what if we do something, look
• 31:25
  at the, like, like a jellyfish so it doesn't have that much structural stress.
• 31:30
  Right.
• 31:31
  Will it last longer?
• 31:33
  But still be biodegradable.
• 31:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:35
  Fast forward years of getting vessels to do the type of research I talked
• 31:41
  about earlier where, hey, you buy the stuff and you buy the buoys and we
• 31:45
  want you to, now when you put fads in the water, put two one like you used
• 31:50
  to make and one like a biodegradable fad that we're gonna teach you.
• 31:55
  Right.
• 31:55
  And we did those trials in every ocean to make sure that
• 31:58
  they traveled in the same way.
• 32:00
  Did they attract fish in the same way?
• 32:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:03
  Did they last long enough?
• 32:05
  And we got it.
• 32:07
  We got the research to a point that with, by 2024 we're like, okay, we're
• 32:13
  ready to, we're ready to write this up.
• 32:15
  Yeah.
• 32:15
  Like we've been talking to skippers, we've been trialing them.
• 32:18
  But that fad, biodegradable fad guide is the combination of six or seven
• 32:25
  years of research and many, many.
• 32:30
  Sets and fad deployments by, um, cooperative vessels.
• 32:35
  Yeah.
• 32:35
  And the exciting thing is now every tuna RFMO has implemented a timeline
• 32:41
  by which their vessels should be switching to using biodegradable fats.
• 32:45
  So like our scientists came up with the idea, worked with other
• 32:48
  scientists, figured it out, out.
• 32:50
  We started advocating for it.
• 32:52
  We started working with skippers to get them to understand and accept it.
• 32:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:57
  And including in our advocacy asks.
• 33:00
  And the RMOs now have timelines for requiring.
• 33:04
  Biodegradable biodegradability in fats.
• 33:07
  When you said like the guide, the construction guide.
• 33:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:10
  So are these fats being made by the fishers?
• 33:13
  Like by the vessels?
• 33:14
  By the captains or, or, or the deck hands or whoever.
• 33:17
  Like they're being actually made.
• 33:18
  So this guide teaches 'em how to make it and what materials they need to uses.
• 33:22
  Fabulous question.
• 33:22
  And it varies.
• 33:23
  It depends upon.
• 33:25
  Where, where the home base is.
• 33:27
  Right, right.
• 33:27
  Okay.
• 33:27
  And that is one of the things that our, one of our scientists, g
• 33:31
  Moreno, she's still doing is like going, talked to her last time.
• 33:33
  Different countries.
• 33:34
  Right.
• 33:35
  And finding what's locally available there.
• 33:37
  Uh, that would work.
• 33:39
  Got you.
• 33:39
  Because it, you know, you're kind of ruining the whole environmentally friendly
• 33:44
  thing if you're shipping something in a container halfway around the world.
• 33:47
  True, true.
• 33:47
  You wanna, you want them to find local materials that will work, that will
• 33:53
  buy at degrade, that will be strong enough, um, so that it's cost effective.
• 33:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:57
  As well as having the desired environmental impact.
• 34:01
  Um, sometimes there are some fleets that make them on land because they're mm-hmm.
• 34:06
  They fish close enough and they come back and they direct the deliver to,
• 34:08
  to factories that are right on land.
• 34:10
  So they've found that the fleets just go together and they have.
• 34:14
  Fad production facility.
• 34:16
  But there are others that they put all the ingredients, if you will, on board.
• 34:20
  And, you know, that's what they do on their steaming days out at
• 34:23
  sea is they, they make fads and probably everything in between.
• 34:27
  You know what I like about this?
• 34:28
  'cause like, you know, what I was thinking when I first heard about it
• 34:30
  is it's like somebody created this like an engineer and, and, and, you know,
• 34:34
  marketed it to the vessels and they would have to pay for this fad and they
• 34:37
  would have to go out and, you know, it get set at a certain price and that
• 34:41
  would go into their operating costs.
• 34:42
  What I really like about this is that they make it themselves.
• 34:46
  Uh, it's, it's locally done, but what I really like is it's like
• 34:49
  democratizing the making of this.
• 34:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:52
  And when you, when you start to put all these different minds together and they,
• 34:56
  they're all making a similar device, but maybe you, like you said, using different
• 35:00
  local materials or things like that.
• 35:02
  You almost get better and better as you go along because someone's gonna figure
• 35:06
  out something that makes it better.
• 35:08
  You know, makes it either last a little longer or maybe degrade better, or, you
• 35:12
  know, maybe attract a little bit better.
• 35:14
  And then share that information across, you know, the, the, the network
• 35:18
  and be like, oh, okay, let's see if we can replicate that over here.
• 35:21
  So you're allowing, 'cause these, these, these fissures are, are
• 35:25
  geniuses in their own right.
• 35:26
  They know the world.
• 35:27
  Absolutely.
• 35:28
  They know these fads.
• 35:29
  They know how tuna behave.
• 35:31
  Right.
• 35:31
  A lot of the times for scientists.
• 35:33
  We depend on these fishers to tell us what's happening locally.
• 35:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:37
  Because it's all unique.
• 35:38
  Right.
• 35:39
  And, and I, I think that's such a great opportunity to make these feds
• 35:43
  even better, you know, and work with scientists and so forth and be like,
• 35:46
  Hey, we've actually figured out something that catches it a little bit more
• 35:49
  efficiently, um, you know, and, and last a little longer, but then it will degrade
• 35:54
  better and all these different things.
• 35:55
  I think that's such a great idea to allow, like just empower the
• 35:58
  fishers to make it themselves and, and make it even better because
• 36:01
  they're engineers in their own right.
• 36:02
  Let's be honest.
• 36:03
  They've, they've made, they've fixed boats on the, in, in probably
• 36:06
  bad seas and things like that, and they've, they've seen it all.
• 36:09
  Um, and I just love the fact that, that, that allows them to do that.
• 36:12
  And I'm sure, um, they're, I'm sure they're, they're
• 36:15
  enjoying that part as well.
• 36:17
  Um, absolutely.
• 36:18
  So, so that's awesome.
• 36:19
  So let's move on.
• 36:20
  I, I think it's, it's, it's really, it's really interesting to, to see
• 36:23
  that guide do so well in the dev develop development of that guide.
• 36:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:26
  Um, now when we talk about, you know, we're always talking, we're looking
• 36:30
  at, uh, at Tuna Fish, we talk about.
• 36:32
  Bycatch and, and I, I apologize to the else, we're gonna be switching to a
• 36:35
  lot of things because it's, you guys covered a lot of things last year.
• 36:38
  I want to be able to cover as much as possible.
• 36:40
  Um, so how did the research contribute to bycatch mitigation, uh, strategies
• 36:45
  for species like, like, you know, sharks, modular rays, uh, and seabirds
• 36:49
  Because, you know, a lot of the times, you know, we see, you know,
• 36:52
  shark, uh, populations decreasing.
• 36:55
  We see, uh, different things happen, um, with sea birds, but we don't talk a lot
• 37:00
  about that in sort of like mainstream meat wise or when we talk about, um, you know,
• 37:05
  saving these, these species as, as biatch.
• 37:07
  So, so how did that, that research contribute to that mi,
• 37:10
  those mitigation strategies?
• 37:13
  So with a lot of the, especially long line bycatch mitigation measures,
• 37:19
  a lot of those have been known.
• 37:21
  And so we were partnering with other organizations to get the word out
• 37:26
  it, you know, we don't just have skipper's workshops with per se vessels.
• 37:30
  We now have a whole skipper's workshop series with long line vessels, both in
• 37:34
  person as well as online, um, materials available to them so that they too.
• 37:42
  Can be learning and refreshing themselves about the bycatch mitigation measures.
• 37:47
  Um, maybe by the time this airs soon, uh, we'll be adding some new columns to our
• 37:53
  VOC that illustrates actual implementation of some of the bycatch mitigation measures
• 37:59
  that are more applicable to long liners.
• 38:01
  And we're really excited about that new rollout for sure.
• 38:05
  Um, on the at sea part, we have been working for a couple of years now
• 38:12
  with these nets, the large nets and the hoppers to help large animals be
• 38:19
  released quickly and safely for them.
• 38:22
  So that's the manta ray work.
• 38:24
  Um, also some of the large shark work, you know?
• 38:27
  Yeah.
• 38:27
  Part of the skippers, um, outreach.
• 38:31
  For years with all gear types is how to safely handle a shark safe for you.
• 38:36
  Yeah.
• 38:36
  Safe for the shark for sure.
• 38:38
  It can be done like you have to motivate them to want to keep the shark safe and
• 38:42
  then you have to demonstrate how to do it.
• 38:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:45
  Um, the hoppers and using the large nets for the large animals, these
• 38:50
  are things that are showing promise.
• 38:52
  We, this, it, it's hard to do the absolute research 'cause they
• 38:56
  don't encounter them that often.
• 38:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:58
  So you need a scientist on board that does encounter them, that's able to put
• 39:03
  a tag on them to make sure that when you try this technique, they actually live.
• 39:08
  Um, these are all the, the fun parts of real science.
• 39:12
  Um, but they're showing great promise.
• 39:14
  It also would involve some costs on the part of the boats to, to modify
• 39:20
  their boats with these techniques.
• 39:22
  But we're happy with how.
• 39:24
  Those research cruises have gone and we've made some good progress in 2024
• 39:29
  on, on those large animals as well.
• 39:32
  I think you highlight something really important too, in terms of, uh, you know,
• 39:35
  the fishers handling the sharks, it.
• 39:38
  There's a lot of stuff that can go wrong at sea when you're
• 39:41
  fishing just at sea in general.
• 39:43
  Yeah, I, I kind of mentioned it before.
• 39:45
  Conditions are never perfect, uh, and usually when things
• 39:47
  go bad, conditions are bad.
• 39:49
  You know, that, that's, that's usually, uh, contributes to that
• 39:52
  to handle a shark at sea, I.
• 39:55
  Whether you're in large ways or whether it's flat surface,
• 39:58
  uh, it, it doesn't matter.
• 40:00
  The, the fisher has to protect themselves.
• 40:02
  It's like a occupational health and safety, but you're dealing with a
• 40:05
  shark of various size that has a lot of teeth that are very sharp and you
• 40:09
  can actually hurt yourself a lot.
• 40:11
  So I think it's really important to teach them like, look, this is, these are the
• 40:14
  ways, the best practices to handle sharks, um, the best that you can at sea, and to
• 40:19
  protect yourself and to protect the shark.
• 40:21
  I think that's really important.
• 40:22
  'cause that could lead to just killing the shark and throwing it overboard if
• 40:26
  somebody's not feeling safe and handling a live shark and trying to save it.
• 40:30
  And so I think it's important to talk about that and to
• 40:32
  have that, those discussions.
• 40:33
  What's the feedback when you get that, that your staff gets, when they start
• 40:37
  to talk about, you know, safety in handling, uh, sharks or other marine
• 40:42
  species that could be dangerous.
• 40:43
  What's the feedback to the fishers at that point?
• 40:46
  I think that they understand mm-hmm.
• 40:47
  That, that it is definitely important.
• 40:49
  A lot of them are also fishing in areas where, uh.
• 40:54
  Shark encounters are, are regulated, right?
• 40:57
  Yeah.
• 40:57
  And, uh, true, so true.
• 40:59
  So they want to do it right.
• 41:01
  Um, you have to make sure that they also understand there are other, you
• 41:05
  know, that it, it's not a low priority.
• 41:07
  Don't just leave them sitting over there till you're all done.
• 41:10
  Right.
• 41:10
  Like you, the faster you get them back in the water and that's where mm-hmm.
• 41:14
  Some of the boats, I, I think the French started this have almost two,
• 41:17
  they have two conveyor belts where the, the tuna goes on one and they can
• 41:20
  immediately pull out the bycatch and it goes on the other and it goes right
• 41:23
  out back in the water immediately.
• 41:26
  Right.
• 41:26
  Again, that's, that's a, that's a vessel design issue that, that's a big thing.
• 41:30
  You can't just like bolt one of those.
• 41:38
  A lot of the conversations that, that are going on.
• 41:42
  I, um, I love how you, I went shark tagging once.
• 41:44
  Fun fact.
• 41:45
  This is another great perk of my, of my job.
• 41:48
  Melanie Hutchinson is a superstar shark scientist.
• 41:51
  Right.
• 41:51
  Um, and when she was doing her PhD and, and we helped support it, I
• 41:54
  was in Hawaii for some meetings and, and she took me shark tagging
• 41:58
  and we tagged a very large shark.
• 42:00
  And this is, I, I got so much respect for Melanie, for shark scientists in general.
• 42:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:08
  And really this is when I learned that if you get your PhD in marine biology,
• 42:11
  you're actually seasick every day for like somewhere between five and seven years.
• 42:15
  Because it's like very fine motor skill to tag those sharks while
• 42:19
  the waves are going like this.
• 42:21
  Yeah.
• 42:21
  It was fabulous.
• 42:22
  And yeah.
• 42:23
  You know, that was in a controlled environment.
• 42:25
  Yeah.
• 42:25
  Yeah.
• 42:26
  Not on a fishing trip.
• 42:27
  No.
• 42:27
  Yeah, it's, it's insane.
• 42:29
  It's insane.
• 42:29
  When you, when you think about the, you know, a lot of
• 42:32
  people don't think about that.
• 42:33
  When we talk about being in the field, every, every scientist is
• 42:36
  like, I love being in the field.
• 42:37
  It comes with, its, its, its challenges, you know?
• 42:40
  And, and a lot of that time is, is safety.
• 42:43
  Even just like when, I remember when I, just, a quick story here.
• 42:47
  When I first went, I, I worked in the, when I first graduated, I worked in
• 42:50
  the Gulf of Mexico, uh, and I worked as a marine technician on a boat.
• 42:53
  And I'll never forget, I was standing, uh, in, at, on the, on the stern
• 42:58
  of the ship and I was just standing in a way where we were tied up to,
• 43:01
  uh, an oil rig, just where Gulf of Mexico, there's a lot of oil rigs.
• 43:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:04
  We're tied up to an oil rig, and there's a line that I'm standing in
• 43:07
  line with the line, like with the rope that's attached to this rig.
• 43:11
  And I remember the captain coming up to me, he's like, you need to move
• 43:13
  right now, and I'll explain after.
• 43:15
  And he goes, move over here.
• 43:16
  I'm like, okay, what's going on?
• 43:17
  He's like, if that line snaps, that's coming right back and
• 43:22
  that will split you in two.
• 43:26
  Just standing in the wrong spot, you know, if you're not aware, can be deadly.
• 43:33
  You know, and I think that's, that, it just kind of, I always tell people
• 43:36
  that it goes to show how dangerous, not only from a scientific perspective,
• 43:40
  but also from a fishing perspective.
• 43:41
  It is to be out there and to be how aware these fishers are and these
• 43:45
  scientists are being out there.
• 43:47
  Uh, and then being able to develop these skills to tag a, a large shark who doesn't
• 43:52
  want to be outta the water for very long, wants to be back in the water, scared,
• 43:56
  is worried, and then you put it in, you put the, you do all your things that
• 43:59
  you have to do, and then you put the tag on and you put it back in the water.
• 44:02
  To do it in a slickly split is, is a tough thing to do.
• 44:05
  So, uh, like you said, the motor skills to like tag that on Yeah, it's, it's a.
• 44:10
  Definite, uh, challenge in, in itself.
• 44:13
  Uh, but that it, it, it's great to see, you know, you get to
• 44:16
  experience all these things.
• 44:17
  You get to really understand it from a, um, like, you know, somebody who's the
• 44:20
  president of an organization may not be able to do that e every day and, and that
• 44:24
  they're able to do that is, is great.
• 44:26
  'cause you get that perspective, that scientific perspective,
• 44:28
  which I think is important.
• 44:29
  Right?
• 44:29
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:31
  That's awesome.
• 44:32
  Let's move on to, to electronic electronic monitoring and compliance.
• 44:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:36
  Um, you know, what progress is made in 2024 regarding the adopting of, I'll
• 44:41
  call it, em, electronic monitoring standards for the RMF or RFMOs.
• 44:46
  Uh, you know, there it seems that, like that's always a difficult thing.
• 44:50
  There was a study that came out, uh, where a lot of the fishing vessels
• 44:53
  around the world haven't, aren't tracked.
• 44:56
  Um, you know, electronic monitoring is, is important.
• 44:59
  Uh, can you just talk about what electronic monitoring is in this
• 45:01
  context and then what progress is made in 2024 about that.
• 45:05
  Yep.
• 45:07
  So electronic monitoring is a set of pieces of equipment that goes on a boat.
• 45:12
  It is absolutely cameras, but it's also other sensors that
• 45:16
  measure location and speed.
• 45:18
  And if your hydraulics are, are running, so you want to make sure that the cameras
• 45:24
  are set up in a way to capture all the phishing activities, but also you have
• 45:28
  those other sensors that can help you figure out what's, what's going on.
• 45:33
  Um, there are some fisheries that have been using electronic monitoring
• 45:37
  successfully for a very long time.
• 45:40
  It really had not gotten much traction in tuna fisheries.
• 45:44
  Way back in like 2011, we did one of the first electronic
• 45:48
  monitoring trials with Archipelago onboard a large scale per saner.
• 45:53
  Yeah.
• 45:53
  To see and large scale per Sanders have a hundred percent human observers.
• 45:58
  Right.
• 45:58
  But we wanted to investigate, I mean, a human observer is not everywhere.
• 46:03
  24 true.
• 46:04
  Seven get to sleep sometimes.
• 46:05
  Right.
• 46:05
  They have to sleep, sometimes they get sick, they get to
• 46:08
  eat, like, you know, yeah.
• 46:09
  They can be up above deck and the cool stuff is happening
• 46:12
  below deck or, or vice versa.
• 46:15
  So we did a study to see what things that electronic monitoring could
• 46:20
  do as well as a person, some things that could do better than a person.
• 46:23
  And then what, what do you need a person for long liners had been, uh.
• 46:30
  Successfully using electronic monitoring for longer than that
• 46:33
  because the action's slower.
• 46:35
  You know, on a purer, you open that braille and like Woo falls
• 46:38
  down, tons of duna goes right down.
• 46:40
  Yeah.
• 46:40
  Where a long liner is one by one, you're taking whatever animal
• 46:44
  is off the hook, off the hook.
• 46:45
  And you've got, you know, here's your camera, here's where they're
• 46:47
  taking them, pulling in the line and taking them off the hook.
• 46:50
  Um, from 2011 through 20 15, 20 16, there was a global environment facility
• 47:02
  Tup project, part of which was doing trials of long liners on board per
• 47:08
  se, vessels and long liners on, uh, electronic monitoring on per se, looking
• 47:12
  at the fleet in Ghana and on long liners looking at the fleet in Fiji.
• 47:18
  Those trials went on for three or four years.
• 47:21
  Still not a lot of uptake.
• 47:22
  Hmm.
• 47:24
  Um, there's was then a second and we're now in a second
• 47:28
  global environment facility.
• 47:30
  Program that was designed to bring the tuna RFMOs together and get
• 47:37
  serious about electronic monitoring.
• 47:39
  Most importantly, harmonizing globally the standards and specifications
• 47:44
  for electronic monitoring systems.
• 47:45
  Makes sense, right?
• 47:46
  You have to say, if you want a government or a science body to receive electronic
• 47:51
  monitoring, it needs to be like this.
• 47:55
  Not prescriptive, but like what are the characteristics of the
• 47:58
  system that make it good enough?
• 48:00
  Well, I'm happy to report that between 20 22, 21, 22, when the Global Environment
• 48:09
  Facility Project presumed three workshops where we'd bring and ISF is leading
• 48:16
  this work, bring the RFMOs together to start aligning and harmonizing, mm-hmm.
• 48:21
  On these technical specifications to the end of 2024.
• 48:26
  The RFMOs all did it.
• 48:28
  They all passed between the end of 23 and the end of 24 basic
• 48:34
  specifications for electronic monitoring systems in their region.
• 48:39
  There's still some harmonization that needs to be done.
• 48:42
  Some say it's voluntary.
• 48:44
  Some say it's a trial.
• 48:46
  Some say it's only for science.
• 48:47
  Some say it could be used for compliance.
• 48:50
  Some say it's only for long line.
• 48:52
  You know, like there are still differences to work out.
• 48:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:56
  But the exciting thing about this is the RFMOs lapped what the Global
• 49:02
  Environment Facility Tuna Project was thinking they were gonna be.
• 49:06
  So we're now looking at these three workshops that we'll be
• 49:09
  doing over the next three years.
• 49:11
  We had the first one last December as accomplishing much more than was.
• 49:17
  Originally designed.
• 49:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:19
  And this is because, you know, things, things start slowly
• 49:23
  and then it happens fast.
• 49:24
  Yeah.
• 49:24
  And all of that pre-work and talking about it in trials and working with fleets and
• 49:29
  other NGOs getting on board and the Nature Conservancy has done a ton of work at, at
• 49:34
  a national level, reaching out to them to get them to start requiring it on vessels
• 49:39
  that fish in their waters, tuna vessels.
• 49:41
  Um, and the Tuna Transparency pledge that they spearheaded signed first by Walmart
• 49:46
  and now others, that by 2027 they want all of the tuna that they sell to be on board.
• 49:52
  A vessel that had a hundred percent monitoring, knowing that
• 49:56
  electronic monitoring needed to pay, play a large part in that.
• 50:00
  Um.
• 50:02
  2024 was kind of that, that momentous year in, in that all four have done something.
• 50:08
  Yeah.
• 50:09
  Now we need to move it forward and it's, it's a great success story.
• 50:13
  'cause this again is the work of scientists, governments, NGOs,
• 50:18
  industry retailers, all kind of pushing for the same thing.
• 50:23
  And it's starting to happen really fast now.
• 50:26
  When I think that, like, if you think about electronic monitoring in general,
• 50:30
  and, you know, and Fishers, fishers don't like, like, they like to do what they've
• 50:33
  done, you know, for generations and, and they don't want somebody necessarily
• 50:38
  watching over their backs all the time.
• 50:39
  They're like, we are doing stuff.
• 50:41
  They, you know, they want people to know that they're doing
• 50:43
  stuff for the good of the ocean.
• 50:45
  They wanna fish forever.
• 50:46
  They want to be able to do that kind of stuff.
• 50:48
  Electronic monitoring, to me would've been a very difficult thing to get
• 50:52
  vessels and, and fishers to adopt the fact that you're able to do that.
• 50:57
  You know, through the RMOs across the world, like as you said, there's
• 51:01
  still some work to be done, but to lap the GEF in the program and to
• 51:07
  say, Hey, we actually got this done.
• 51:08
  That's phenomenal.
• 51:09
  Like that, that is really phenomenal.
• 51:11
  I didn't think when you sort started telling this story, I was
• 51:13
  like, yeah, no, that didn't work.
• 51:15
  That's not gonna work.
• 51:15
  And but it is like, it does, it does work.
• 51:18
  And I think, you know, as part of compliance, as part of like these
• 51:21
  rules and having everybody on board as you just listed off all the different
• 51:26
  people, all the different parts of the supply chain on board allows
• 51:30
  that to be adopted a lot faster.
• 51:32
  Uh, allows it to be like, look, this is not just watching
• 51:35
  over the work that you do.
• 51:36
  This is to make sure that everything is done properly and, and everybody in the
• 51:39
  supply chain is responsible for that.
• 51:41
  And I think it's a, it's a, it's a great thing to do and everybody, it, it
• 51:44
  just, it helps with the transparency.
• 51:47
  It helps with the say, Hey, look, we're advocating for the conservation of
• 51:51
  these species even though, you know, we're taking some, we're making sure
• 51:54
  that we can fish forever and these are the ways that we're doing it.
• 51:57
  I, I really, really think that's, that's a powerful message, especially when you
• 52:01
  have everybody on board across the line, across the supply chain to say yes.
• 52:05
  Like, this is what we're gonna do.
• 52:07
  Phenomenal work.
• 52:09
  Yes.
• 52:10
  Thank you.
• 52:10
  Amazing.
• 52:10
  In, in, I love that.
• 52:12
  That's powerful.
• 52:13
  Like everything, you're right.
• 52:14
  It takes a lot of talking to vessels of course to vessel owners, you know,
• 52:17
  making them understand that this is not cameras all over the boat, right?
• 52:21
  Just where you're fishing.
• 52:22
  This is, you know, the vessel owners actually love it.
• 52:27
  Really because they own this boat that's Yeah.
• 52:29
  Way far away from them.
• 52:30
  And it, yeah.
• 52:32
  You know, yeah, sometimes I, I have some, I have friends that, um, have a house on
• 52:38
  a lake and they have a little camera on their deck and they, they like to pull
• 52:41
  up their camera and watch the sunset.
• 52:43
  I mean, there, there is just this human, um, pleasure.
• 52:48
  Yeah.
• 52:48
  I, I guess for right, for sure.
• 52:49
  So, so, so they can, both the skippers recognize that it can actually be helpful.
• 52:56
  Yeah.
• 52:56
  For them, if they get accused of doing something that they didn't do, and yep.
• 52:59
  The owners same way.
• 53:01
  And also the owners, I, I think, really get jazzed about being able
• 53:05
  to just take a peek and see what, see what their team's doing today.
• 53:09
  Um, so, but it's very scary when you first talk about it, for sure.
• 53:14
  Definitely takes some getting used to, but, um, yeah, really, really
• 53:18
  optimistic about where this is going.
• 53:19
  So powerful.
• 53:21
  Now you mentioned at the beginning of this, when we, when I first asked
• 53:23
  that question of like, what were the priorities, what were the highlights
• 53:26
  of 2024, you mentioned, uh, an an enormous amount of workshops,
• 53:29
  34 workshops to be specific.
• 53:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:32
  Uh, for tuna fishers worldwide in 2024.
• 53:36
  I know there's a lot of specifics that can go into that, and we can probably do
• 53:39
  34 episodes for each, for each workshop.
• 53:42
  Um, but today we're gonna be talking like, what were the primary objectives
• 53:45
  and then like, you know, the outcomes that come out of those, of those workshops.
• 53:50
  So there's the main curricula if, if you will, right.
• 53:55
  The, that most participate in, which is the bycatch mitigation.
• 54:01
  A little bit about RFMOs, the kind of the basics about, um, regulatory compliance,
• 54:06
  some, some issues and ways, ways to fix 'em, if it's a per se, and how to make
• 54:11
  a biodegradable fad, that sort of thing.
• 54:13
  Yeah.
• 54:13
  But we had a few topic specifics as well.
• 54:18
  One, we worked with, um, tuna Con and WWF Ecuador to bring globally groups
• 54:25
  together to talk about fad retrieval.
• 54:27
  Um, so if they're not biodegradable fads, how do you get them out of the water?
• 54:32
  Right.
• 54:32
  And how do you design a fad retrieval initiative?
• 54:36
  And then we had four other regional dialogues about fad retrieval,
• 54:42
  again with the vessel community.
• 54:45
  So, so that was one, um, another longstanding piece of research.
• 54:50
  So boats or fads have eco sounder buoys on them that until pretty
• 54:55
  recently just says, yep, there's a bunch of stuff there, or, Nope.
• 54:59
  Nothing on this one.
• 55:01
  Right.
• 55:01
  Well, WeWork did a lot of research to come up with the acoustic signature
• 55:05
  for the different species of tuna.
• 55:07
  Ah.
• 55:08
  And then now we're working with the buoy manufacturers to make smart buoys and
• 55:13
  then doing training to skippers about what these buoys can do and how to use them.
• 55:18
  So that's another kind of.
• 55:21
  Corridor of those workshop.
• 55:22
  Remember gall mentioned last time, I wanna into that.
• 55:25
  It's hugely exciting.
• 55:26
  Yeah.
• 55:26
  And it's harder, it was harder to do.
• 55:27
  Yellowfin was a tricky one.
• 55:29
  Took us a long time to get the, get the Yellowfin one.
• 55:32
  So, so that's another one, right?
• 55:33
  Working with the buoy manufacturers and then talking to the skippers.
• 55:37
  And, and this will get more robust probably in the coming years now, right?
• 55:41
  Of course.
• 55:42
  Of course.
• 55:42
  These more sophisticated buoys are available to you.
• 55:46
  Here's how you make the best use of the information that you're being given.
• 55:51
  Um, so yeah, it's different topics that just like that.
• 55:57
  Just like that.
• 55:57
  Just like that.
• 56:00
  That's awesome.
• 56:01
  I think, and I think that's important because like these workshops contribute
• 56:04
  to something, you know, bigger into that broader, sustainable, you
• 56:10
  know, tuna fishing practices, right?
• 56:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 56:12
  Um, and, and so like when you, when you, when you guys plan a workshop, there's
• 56:17
  a lot of detail that goes into that.
• 56:19
  Um.
• 56:20
  How do you measure the success of these workshops at, by the end of it, you
• 56:25
  know, is it just the, the delivery of the curricula, or is it more of like the
• 56:30
  sentiment afterwards by the, the vessel owners and the fishers and so forth?
• 56:37
  Um, there's a couple different metrics.
• 56:38
  Metrics of success.
• 56:40
  Uh, first of all, like all good scientists and professors, they ask
• 56:43
  their students for a little feedback and we have a really comprehensive
• 56:49
  questionnaire now, and it's right not only feedback on the, the workshop
• 56:54
  itself, but itself, the ideas presented their thoughts, places for them to, to
• 57:00
  talk about issues they're encountering.
• 57:02
  So it, it helps the scientists as well.
• 57:05
  Okay.
• 57:06
  Also, kind of like on a scale of one to five, how good of an idea
• 57:09
  do you think it this is, or how comfortable are you doing it?
• 57:13
  And we can watch those scores improve over time.
• 57:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 57:17
  You know, when we first started talking to the skippers about the notion of
• 57:21
  biodegradable fads, it was not popular.
• 57:24
  Hmm.
• 57:25
  And also, not surprisingly, it was going nowhere in our advocacy,
• 57:30
  but by around year three or four.
• 57:35
  When we had more trials going at sea, when the skippers had maybe heard
• 57:40
  about this two or three times, had a little time to noodle it, you started
• 57:44
  seeing that acceptance go from red to yellow to maybe light green, maybe
• 57:50
  not dark green, but you light green.
• 57:52
  And once it hit that light Greenpoint point.
• 57:55
  No, shocker.
• 57:56
  That's right.
• 57:56
  The R fm OS also started taking action.
• 57:59
  So of course.
• 58:00
  So it takes a while, but you, we can mark progress of an issue.
• 58:04
  And then our ultimate definition of success is if an RFMO is able to get the
• 58:09
  needed consensus to adopt a conservation measure requiring something that.
• 58:14
  Our scientists feel should be required, our scientists and other scientists.
• 58:18
  Yeah.
• 58:19
  Yeah.
• 58:19
  No, that's huge.
• 58:20
  I think that's really important.
• 58:21
  And it is, it's great to be able to track how the sentiment is changing over time.
• 58:26
  I think that's mm-hmm.
• 58:26
  That's really great.
• 58:28
  Um, you know, we, we talked a lot about, you know, from the, the vessel
• 58:31
  aspect and from the Fisher aspect today.
• 58:34
  Um, but there, in the report, uh, it mentions that, you know, 90%
• 58:39
  alignment between the IFFI sfs, you know, priorities with those
• 58:44
  nearly 50 other environmental NGOs.
• 58:48
  That's a lot.
• 58:49
  And, and let's, let's be honest here, like this, ISSF is a, is a con, is a, is a,
• 58:54
  a, a, a collaboration and an organization that's formed by corporations.
• 58:59
  You wouldn't think, you'd think that the big controversy with ISSF is
• 59:02
  the fact that it's corporate based.
• 59:04
  And so it wouldn't align well with the priorities of environmental NGOs,
• 59:09
  especially when it comes to tuna phishing.
• 59:11
  To be able to get 90% in alignment is a huge feat.
• 59:14
  How was that done?
• 59:15
  Uh, and how does it advance ISS F'S advocacy efforts?
• 59:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:21
  So when ISSF first started there, there was one other factor, uh, uh,
• 59:25
  that was kind of pushing everyone to realize we needed an ISSF.
• 59:29
  And that is because the NGOs were all over the place.
• 59:33
  Mm. And businesses were afraid to do, to move in one direction for fear that they
• 59:37
  would be attacked by a different NGO.
• 59:40
  Makes sense for doing that.
• 59:41
  Makes sense.
• 59:41
  And, and so it was chaotic.
• 59:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:44
  Um, we had, and it, that wasn't just to businesses, that was also to governments.
• 59:49
  Like, yeah.
• 59:49
  That was just, would you, you know, all, you all go tell us what you want.
• 59:53
  Um, so in addition to our scientific advisory committee, we were, we
• 59:58
  created right at the very beginning, an environmental stakeholder committee,
• 1:00:02
  um, world Wildlife Fund, both in the US and international were founders.
• 1:00:06
  Um, when we started, um, they brought together, uh, FishWise and SFP and
• 1:00:12
  Monterey Bay Aquarium, uh, and the Global Tuna Alliance and TNC, uh, you know,
• 1:00:20
  Marine Stewardship Council's on there.
• 1:00:22
  And so.
• 1:00:24
  That sharing and talking in time and starting to work
• 1:00:29
  on projects together helped.
• 1:00:31
  And then the foundation community, uh, started funding that the Monterey
• 1:00:37
  Bay Aquarium started called the Global Tuna Alliance because as you said,
• 1:00:42
  ISSF, um, partners very closely with industry and there were many NGOs
• 1:00:48
  that were not comfortable with that.
• 1:00:51
  So to get around that problem, we now have a different organization called the Global
• 1:00:55
  Tune Alliance that has 40 or 50 NGOs.
• 1:00:58
  Now, the requirements to join that are, you either or both have to
• 1:01:04
  have a, a retail partner mm-hmm.
• 1:01:06
  That buys tuna, uh, or be an accredited observer to one or more tuna RFMOs.
• 1:01:13
  So that too has really helped the NGO Tuna Forum works at, you know, what are
• 1:01:19
  the top three, four, no more than five asks for each RFMO meeting, getting as
• 1:01:24
  many NGOs as possible to align on that.
• 1:01:27
  We participate in that
• 1:01:31
  and more NGOs, I think, have realized that having a common voice on, forget
• 1:01:38
  about what your ultimate goal is, what's your goal for this meeting?
• 1:01:43
  What's reasonable to accomplish in this meeting given the agenda, given
• 1:01:49
  the work that has come out in the last year of their working groups,
• 1:01:53
  focusing on that necessary next step.
• 1:01:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:57
  That too was, was a lot of work to get this many groups to realize that yeah, we
• 1:02:02
  can all have our ultimate goals and we can make statements about the ultimate goals.
• 1:02:06
  Even the N GT uniform has said a hundred percent.
• 1:02:10
  Observation on all industrial tuna boats.
• 1:02:13
  So that's an ultimate goal.
• 1:02:14
  Yeah.
• 1:02:15
  Um, but being clear about your timeline, building upon the work that
• 1:02:20
  the RFMOs are doing in the next steps has really, so it's not like we said,
• 1:02:24
  Hey, this is what we're asking for.
• 1:02:26
  And 90% agreed with it.
• 1:02:28
  It's that we are actively engaging in a body of work with the NGO
• 1:02:33
  community that's working on tuna issues and the whole community is
• 1:02:38
  getting aligned, which is also making it a lot easier to make progress.
• 1:02:42
  'cause you don't have, if, if people are saying five different things, that's
• 1:02:45
  a really good reason to do nothing.
• 1:02:48
  But if everybody's saying the same thing, it's really hard to do nothing.
• 1:02:51
  And, and Susan, isn't that amazing how that, that works so well?
• 1:02:55
  When everybody's aligned and everybody's like, let's, let's, it is
• 1:02:57
  also, it's like, let's be realistic.
• 1:02:59
  Yes, we have these ultimate goals, but let's, what can we do now?
• 1:03:02
  How do we progress?
• 1:03:04
  How do we progress to that ultimate goal?
• 1:03:06
  Uh, let's do it together and here are the steps that we've,
• 1:03:09
  you know, found successful.
• 1:03:11
  Here are the steps that you found successful.
• 1:03:13
  Let's try and amalgamate those, collaborate on those, and
• 1:03:15
  let's build it for who knew collaboration would do so well.
• 1:03:19
  Right.
• 1:03:19
  You know, I think it's, I I love that.
• 1:03:22
  What a concept.
• 1:03:22
  Yeah.
• 1:03:24
  I love that.
• 1:03:25
  Now.
• 1:03:25
  Um, look, transparency is such a huge thing in fisheries, uh mm-hmm.
• 1:03:29
  And, uh, especially when it's, uh, we look at accountability
• 1:03:33
  in the tuna supply chain.
• 1:03:34
  So now with the proactive vessel register, the PVR.
• 1:03:38
  Reaching an all time high.
• 1:03:39
  I think it's, I think in the report said 1,739 vessel registrations.
• 1:03:43
  Yep.
• 1:03:43
  How does this tool enhance transparency and, and the tuna supply chain?
• 1:03:47
  And let's just before you do that, even to define what PVR is and then
• 1:03:51
  how does it enhance transparency in, in the tuna supply chain?
• 1:03:54
  So the PVR stands for Proactive Vessel Register, and these are vessels that
• 1:03:59
  have signed up to be audited by third, third party auditors for their compliance
• 1:04:04
  with our conservation measures.
• 1:04:06
  ISSF has now 34 conservation measures, and if you are a
• 1:04:10
  participating company in ISSF, you have to comply with them some, um.
• 1:04:16
  Are things that companies only do.
• 1:04:17
  Like for example, they submit once a quarter to the science bodies in
• 1:04:21
  the each RFMO vessel level, species size, all their tuna purchasers
• 1:04:27
  that the RFMO scientists use.
• 1:04:29
  That's not something that goes to the boat.
• 1:04:31
  That's a, that's an example of a company specific one.
• 1:04:34
  Um, they're all audited on their traceability systems annually by
• 1:04:38
  MRA to make sure that they have robust vessel trip to finished Good.
• 1:04:43
  Traceability.
• 1:04:45
  Um, but then there are a number of them that do apply to the boats.
• 1:04:48
  The boat has to be flagged to a country that's actually participating
• 1:04:53
  in the RFMO where they're fishing.
• 1:04:55
  The boat has to have a unique vessel identifier, an IMO number,
• 1:04:58
  if they're eligible to get one.
• 1:05:00
  Otherwise A two V that the FAOI think gives out other, uh, so
• 1:05:05
  they have to have an IMO number.
• 1:05:06
  They, their skipper has to have undergone a skipper's training workshop with us.
• 1:05:12
  They have to be deploying non entangling fads.
• 1:05:17
  The PVR audits the vessels on those things.
• 1:05:20
  So the participating company, if they're buying from boats that are in
• 1:05:24
  compliance on the PVR, then for at least the vessel part of our conservation
• 1:05:30
  measures, they'll be in compliance.
• 1:05:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:33
  Um, so, so that is where we are with the PVR.
• 1:05:37
  It, it and of itself.
• 1:05:42
  It doesn't help with transparency except that it is credible transparency to
• 1:05:47
  the practices that the vessels Right.
• 1:05:49
  Are doing.
• 1:05:50
  Of course.
• 1:05:50
  'cause it's independently third party audited.
• 1:05:53
  Yeah.
• 1:05:53
  And you also know that the companies have been audited on their
• 1:05:57
  traceability systems and we publish the individual company audit reports.
• 1:06:02
  Right.
• 1:06:02
  Also.
• 1:06:03
  So that's where the transparency comes from, like comes from Exactly.
• 1:06:07
  You're seeing the results of this, of these audits.
• 1:06:09
  Yep.
• 1:06:10
  Pass or fail or, you know, needs improvement where you're,
• 1:06:13
  everybody gets to see it.
• 1:06:15
  Correct.
• 1:06:16
  Interesting.
• 1:06:16
  And we also, I mean, in addition to our conservation measures being
• 1:06:19
  public, the audit protocols are public.
• 1:06:22
  Right.
• 1:06:22
  So if you wanna know exactly when MAG audits this vote for this thing.
• 1:06:27
  Yeah.
• 1:06:27
  What, what proof needs to be given it's public.
• 1:06:29
  You can look at it.
• 1:06:30
  Yeah.
• 1:06:30
  To, to just go a little bit beyond that, you know, having an audit is great and
• 1:06:35
  being able to, to publish that is great.
• 1:06:37
  Um.
• 1:06:40
  The accountability part of it.
• 1:06:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:43
  What is like the pass fail rate of these, of these audits?
• 1:06:47
  Do you know offhand?
• 1:06:48
  I know I'm, I'm asking a question.
• 1:06:49
  I do.
• 1:06:49
  Okay, perfect.
• 1:06:50
  Because that, that's just the first thing that comes to mind because you
• 1:06:52
  can do the audits, but if everybody's failing the audits, then they're
• 1:06:55
  not really, you know, they show where the, the, the industry is at.
• 1:06:58
  But if they're not passing them, then we're not getting any progress.
• 1:07:01
  Or maybe we, we get progress in the future, but what is that rate?
• 1:07:05
  Is it, is it high?
• 1:07:06
  Is it low?
• 1:07:07
  Is it improving?
• 1:07:08
  Well, I'd love to hear that.
• 1:07:09
  It's definitely improving.
• 1:07:10
  If you look at the participating company audits, last year it was 99.3%.
• 1:07:15
  Uh, it was 23 companies were audited on 33 measures.
• 1:07:20
  Okay.
• 1:07:21
  This year we'll have 24 companies audited on 34 measures.
• 1:07:25
  When we first started, uh, publishing these reports in like 20 15, 20 16.
• 1:07:32
  There was a much bigger spread.
• 1:07:33
  Right.
• 1:07:34
  You know, we had a few companies that were compliant on all, but we had others
• 1:07:37
  that had a lot of non-conformances.
• 1:07:41
  Um, and so it speaks to the seriousness that the companies take their compliance.
• 1:07:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:48
  It speaks to the seriousness that the retailers, their customers
• 1:07:52
  take about expecting compliance.
• 1:07:55
  Yeah.
• 1:07:55
  Um, that, that you see that compliance improve where it is
• 1:07:59
  solidly in the upper 90% now.
• 1:08:03
  So that's for like overall.
• 1:08:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:06
  So going from like a wide range and then tightening it up, but also increasing
• 1:08:10
  it to like in the ni upper 90%.
• 1:08:13
  Yes.
• 1:08:13
  Yep.
• 1:08:14
  What?
• 1:08:15
  That's awesome.
• 1:08:16
  I know.
• 1:08:17
  And if you, and then, but then some people say, oh, well then
• 1:08:19
  they must not be very hard.
• 1:08:21
  Wow.
• 1:08:22
  If you look at all the boats on the PVR, well, first of all, I'm
• 1:08:25
  like, yeah, and you're doing what?
• 1:08:27
  Yeah.
• 1:08:28
  And, and any improvement at this point.
• 1:08:30
  Like Yeah.
• 1:08:30
  You know, and not only are you in, and I, and I, and I know you're gonna
• 1:08:34
  say something probably more profound than I am, but any, like, if we look
• 1:08:38
  at where people started from, you know, where they're just kind of
• 1:08:41
  like, if you think about it, even globally, they're probably just doing
• 1:08:45
  things as they learned and mm-hmm.
• 1:08:47
  And if you have like without.
• 1:08:50
  Bringing together the RFMOs just as ICF has done and, and all the RFMOs have
• 1:08:56
  done, and, and everybody who's part of it has done, everybody was probably
• 1:08:59
  just doing what they knew was right.
• 1:09:01
  Some things were more progressive than others.
• 1:09:03
  Uh, and so like when you start these audits, of course you expect that there's
• 1:09:08
  gonna be a larger fail rate than what you would get after a number of years.
• 1:09:13
  But just the, the fact that you're improving to the upper 90% and, and
• 1:09:19
  obviously these things are not easy.
• 1:09:21
  Everybody's gonna say, these are easy things.
• 1:09:22
  These are not, these are expensive.
• 1:09:24
  They're, they're difficult to, to implement.
• 1:09:26
  Some of them more challenging than others.
• 1:09:28
  Uh, especially with bringing on technology and, and so forth.
• 1:09:32
  And then changing the mindset.
• 1:09:33
  Let's be honest, we humans do not change.
• 1:09:35
  Well, we, we are not easy to change just in general.
• 1:09:38
  Um, and.
• 1:09:41
  And, and to be able to get that is a huge feat, you know, and especially
• 1:09:45
  looking at what th you said 33 now, 34 different types of measurements.
• 1:09:50
  I'm sorry.
• 1:09:51
  Anybody who says that these are Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:53
  Any, no, sorry.
• 1:09:54
  You're right.
• 1:09:55
  Measures.
• 1:09:55
  Measures, yeah.
• 1:09:56
  So anybody who says that, you know, these are easy measures best, I,
• 1:09:59
  I highly disagree because they, they don't know fisheries if that's
• 1:10:03
  the case, you know what I mean?
• 1:10:04
  Like, oh, yep.
• 1:10:05
  These are hard to do in the first place.
• 1:10:08
  Uh, and the fact that we're seeing this improvement is great.
• 1:10:10
  I'm sorry, I, I kind of interrupted what you were, you were gonna go
• 1:10:12
  on and say, so please continue.
• 1:10:14
  Well, I was, so last year for the first time.
• 1:10:17
  We published the same type of aggregated statistic for the boats on the PVR
• 1:10:22
  like we've always had by vessel, by measure transparency to the PVR.
• 1:10:27
  But last year we thought we should try to look at this as a percentage as well.
• 1:10:33
  Hmm.
• 1:10:33
  And so of the 1700 plus vessels on the PVR, um, they were, if you took every
• 1:10:42
  measure, every vessel, every measure, they were at 76% compliance, which is still,
• 1:10:48
  I mean, obviously there's work to do, but also obviously they're doing a lot.
• 1:10:53
  First of all, these are the vessels that are going over and above by getting on
• 1:10:57
  the PVR and signing up for the audits.
• 1:11:00
  But secondly, they are still 76% compliant overall, which also says
• 1:11:10
  more about the participating companies.
• 1:11:13
  'cause it's not that.
• 1:11:15
  All boats are doing this.
• 1:11:16
  This, it also shows the amount of work that they're doing with their
• 1:11:21
  supplier vessels to help educate them, to help them do better to, to
• 1:11:26
  not buy fish from that other 24%.
• 1:11:29
  They're making those hard commercial decisions and also investing
• 1:11:33
  effort to get the bolts up.
• 1:11:37
  Yeah.
• 1:11:37
  Um, so I think the, the two statistics speak to both a job well done, but
• 1:11:43
  also hard work is still ongoing.
• 1:11:46
  A hundred percent.
• 1:11:47
  A hundred percent.
• 1:11:48
  I love this.
• 1:11:48
  This is such a cool, uh, thing to talk about.
• 1:11:52
  Um, now let's talk about financial commitment, because these things
• 1:11:56
  don't, aren't free, right?
• 1:11:57
  All these things, it, it costs money, it costs time, uh, and all
• 1:12:01
  of that, uh, is, is very expensive when, when we talk about that.
• 1:12:05
  So nearly half of the budget for ISSF, uh, according to the report, was dedicated
• 1:12:09
  to science, as you mentioned earlier.
• 1:12:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:11
  In 2024.
• 1:12:12
  So how does this financial commitment.
• 1:12:14
  Reflect is S F's strategic priorities.
• 1:12:18
  Yep.
• 1:12:18
  So, uh,
• 1:12:22
  first of all, the board, the ISSF board is different from the companies.
• 1:12:27
  By the way, it is a community board.
• 1:12:29
  There's only one company person on there, and that's Oh, interesting chair.
• 1:12:32
  Okay.
• 1:12:32
  But there are scientists on there.
• 1:12:33
  There are NGO representatives on there.
• 1:12:35
  There are former fisheries management managers on there.
• 1:12:38
  It is truly a community board.
• 1:12:40
  Um, and, and definitely science is up there.
• 1:12:45
  Um, also the verification piece, you know, these third party
• 1:12:49
  audits, uh, come with a cost.
• 1:12:52
  Um,
• 1:12:55
  the advocacy.
• 1:12:57
  Is basically the people that you're paying that you know, you're already paying
• 1:13:01
  the staff and, and we're advocating.
• 1:13:02
  So that is important work, but it doesn't really have as large of a cost center.
• 1:13:08
  We have a few consultants and you have a lot of plane tickets to go to meetings,
• 1:13:11
  but just by the, by virtue of the nature of the work scientists, science
• 1:13:17
  is gonna be first and transparency and compliance is, is gonna be right up there.
• 1:13:23
  Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Um, but, but I should point out, because this is not a, a minor matter at all.
• 1:13:29
  Um, our budget is roughly $5 million a year.
• 1:13:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:33
  The dues that the companies pay based upon their size is last year, 4.2 million.
• 1:13:38
  So a little over a million in grants as well.
• 1:13:43
  Right.
• 1:13:43
  Um, but if you look at those companies and the investment they have made in ISSF
• 1:13:48
  since we began, it's over $58 million.
• 1:13:52
  These are companies that really, and that's just money to us.
• 1:13:56
  That is not the in kind contributions, that's not the extra staff people that
• 1:14:00
  they had to hire to make sure that their purchases were in compliance
• 1:14:05
  with the conservation measures.
• 1:14:07
  Um, and then if you look at the vessel side and the, we talked earlier
• 1:14:11
  about the fact that those in kind contributions range between 30 and
• 1:14:15
  a hundred million dollars a year.
• 1:14:17
  These companies take this very seriously is important to them that
• 1:14:22
  we are successful and that tunas and tuna ecosystems are healthy.
• 1:14:28
  You know, it's, it's interesting when you, you know, again, coming from a science
• 1:14:31
  perspective and, and a conservation perspective where funding is always short.
• 1:14:37
  Right.
• 1:14:37
  Where it's difficult to get funding, especially in these times,
• 1:14:40
  funding's being cut every which way.
• 1:14:42
  Government now, uh, in a, in a number of different countries, you
• 1:14:46
  know, we're looking at potentially a poten, uh, impending recession
• 1:14:49
  and, and, and things like that.
• 1:14:51
  We are in difficult times we're, and we need more information.
• 1:14:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:55
  And we need more money to get that information.
• 1:14:59
  And we talk about how the private sector needs to pony
• 1:15:02
  up and be able to, to do that.
• 1:15:05
  This is a phenomenal case to show how much can get done even within a year.
• 1:15:14
  Then of course over the last, you know, 15 when you have private sector
• 1:15:20
  investment in trying to improve, uh, a, a, an industry that has long been
• 1:15:27
  functioning, um, and has had problems and has had a, a bad rap and a lot of,
• 1:15:32
  you know, documentaries and, and, and, and reports and stuff to improve and to
• 1:15:36
  include everybody and to collaborate with everybody and to get things done faster.
• 1:15:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:41
  Obviously, and I say faster over a 15 year period to improve things, but every
• 1:15:46
  year you seem to be improving a certain sector or a number of different sectors.
• 1:15:50
  And this goes to show, this is a great example of the fact that the private
• 1:15:55
  sector money, when they're willing to put it in and, and let's be honest, they're
• 1:15:58
  putting in a, a, a decent amount each, but it's not like billions of dollars.
• 1:16:03
  This is a good amount each, and they're putting in a, a like 58 million
• 1:16:06
  over that, which is a lot of money.
• 1:16:08
  It is, and to improve not only the conservation and the sustainability,
• 1:16:13
  but also to improve the business.
• 1:16:15
  And I think that's it.
• 1:16:17
  It's, it's just a great example of how private sector can do some
• 1:16:21
  great things for science, for conservation, fund it, get it done.
• 1:16:27
  Move on to the next problem and solve the next issue.
• 1:16:29
  It's huge.
• 1:16:30
  This is, this is phenomenal case and a, and a great example of that.
• 1:16:34
  Uh, and it goes to test that everybody in your organization who's worked
• 1:16:37
  over the past 15 years, including yourself, who's helped develop this
• 1:16:40
  and push this, this type of, of work just to get things done faster.
• 1:16:44
  Like, it doesn't happen often.
• 1:16:46
  Government takes forever.
• 1:16:47
  You know, nonprofit organizations never get enough money.
• 1:16:50
  The people change over quickly because of the money situation.
• 1:16:53
  And, and it's a huge, it's a huge, uh, gap in, in a and to be able to
• 1:16:58
  have this, uh, is, is phenomenal.
• 1:17:00
  And this is why you're on the episode and I get to, we get
• 1:17:04
  to be able to talk about this.
• 1:17:05
  It's, it's the, the amount of stuff that you were able to do, not only in this
• 1:17:08
  year, but over the last 15 years or this past year, uh, is absolutely amazing.
• 1:17:12
  Now, of course.
• 1:17:13
  Thank you.
• 1:17:13
  When I, when I say that, I'm gonna be like, what have you done for me lately
• 1:17:17
  in terms of what's coming up in 2025?
• 1:17:21
  I say it jokingly, of course.
• 1:17:22
  Yep.
• 1:17:23
  Um, but like, what's the anticipated scientific investment
• 1:17:26
  for, for the upcoming year?
• 1:17:29
  Yep.
• 1:17:29
  So we have high hopes for continued progress on electronic monitoring.
• 1:17:33
  Right.
• 1:17:33
  We've gotta get more fleets using those fully.
• 1:17:36
  Biodegradable fads, you know, those deadlines by which
• 1:17:39
  they have to be using them.
• 1:17:40
  We'll be here before we know it 'cause that's how time works.
• 1:17:43
  Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  Um, as well as ongoing research to make them better.
• 1:17:47
  Right?
• 1:17:47
  Looking for types of wood that maybe could be locally sourced
• 1:17:51
  in a good source of flotation or, uh, can the design be improved.
• 1:17:56
  Um, and then I, I talked a little bit about the new columns that we're gonna
• 1:18:02
  open up on the v oce, uh, and the tune of transparency pledge and retailers
• 1:18:07
  now making specific commitments and looking to the v oce for that proof.
• 1:18:12
  And I really anticipate that 2025 and 2026 will be the year that you will, we'll
• 1:18:20
  start to see a lot more market call for.
• 1:18:27
  Proven implementation of specific initiatives.
• 1:18:30
  You know, there are 59 retailers around the world now that somehow in their
• 1:18:35
  commitments may make some reference to ISSF by only from an ISF participating
• 1:18:40
  company or only from boats on the PVR.
• 1:18:43
  But it's very high level and it's not really verified.
• 1:18:46
  And now the NGO community is starting to say, Hey, like TNC did
• 1:18:51
  with the transparency pledge, we want a hundred percent verification
• 1:18:54
  and we want that vote on the VOC.
• 1:18:56
  So we know that it has been independently audited and verified that they do in
• 1:19:01
  fact have a hundred percent observation and, and I think that type of initiative
• 1:19:07
  is gonna be the wave of the future.
• 1:19:10
  I agree.
• 1:19:10
  I agree.
• 1:19:11
  Uh, Susan, I wanna thank you so much for not only coming on the podcast and sharing
• 1:19:15
  this, but being so enthusiastic about it.
• 1:19:17
  You make an annual report exciting.
• 1:19:19
  And that's, thank you.
• 1:19:20
  That's not an easy thing to do because it's a lot of facts
• 1:19:23
  and a lot of information, but we have good pictures too.
• 1:19:25
  Yeah.
• 1:19:26
  Great picture.
• 1:19:26
  We're, we're gonna share, we're gonna share it in the show
• 1:19:28
  notes so people can take a look.
• 1:19:30
  Uh, I highly recommend people go to iss uh, foundation.org.
• 1:19:34
  I'll put the link in the show notes.
• 1:19:36
  Uh, Susan, please, I would love to invite you back, uh, to, to talk next
• 1:19:39
  year, but also any other initiatives.
• 1:19:41
  I feel like, uh, ISSF needs its own podcast just to be able to
• 1:19:45
  talk about everything and go into detail about everything.
• 1:19:48
  But you're more than welcome back to Come Back, love to come back, you know, to, to
• 1:19:51
  this, uh, to this podcast and talk more about tuna conservation and sustainability
• 1:19:56
  and working together and collaboratively.
• 1:19:58
  Thank you so much.
• 1:19:59
  I, I really do.
• 1:19:59
  That'd be Appreciate it.
• 1:20:01
  Thanks for having me.
• 1:20:01
  Thank you, Susan, for joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:20:04
  to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
• 1:20:05
  I'd just love the energy.
• 1:20:07
  I love the fact that we are able to talk about a 2024 annual report,
• 1:20:12
  make it exciting, make it productive.
• 1:20:15
  Think about how productive this organization is.
• 1:20:17
  A small organization that has a global reach, that has collaborators around
• 1:20:22
  the world, working tirelessly to make things better for the tuna industry.
• 1:20:27
  Not only to be able to fish more, but also to be able to fish
• 1:20:29
  sustainably and fish forever.
• 1:20:31
  I think this is something that is really important.
• 1:20:33
  I know there's people here who are like, no, we need to stop fishing altogether.
• 1:20:36
  That is not going to happen.
• 1:20:38
  That cannot happen.
• 1:20:39
  Too many people rely on the protein from.
• 1:20:42
  Fish like tuna from fish, like a lot of different fish around the world.
• 1:20:46
  And we need to make sure that we are doing this sustainably and there's
• 1:20:49
  organizations that are working this, companies that are working on this
• 1:20:52
  to make sure that it's sustainable.
• 1:20:53
  And Susan brings the heat in terms of all the work that they were able to do.
• 1:20:57
  And you heard it in the episode.
• 1:20:59
  We're looking at scientific innovations and research, electronic monitoring
• 1:21:02
  compliance, stakeholder engagement and workshops, advocacy and policy influence,
• 1:21:07
  transparency and accountability in the tuna supply chain, which is huge financial
• 1:21:11
  commitment to science, which is huge.
• 1:21:12
  And looking ahead into 2025 and re-upping that scientific commitment.
• 1:21:17
  When you have organizations and companies who are like, we
• 1:21:20
  want to invest in the science.
• 1:21:22
  We wanna listen to the science, but we need to get the science information
• 1:21:25
  so that we can listen to the science and we need to solve problems.
• 1:21:27
  And with that scientific study.
• 1:21:29
  Causes another problem or highlights another problem.
• 1:21:32
  We need to solve that problem.
• 1:21:33
  So let's do more science and let's figure out the answers to all
• 1:21:35
  these questions that we have and problems and challenges that we face.
• 1:21:39
  And this is what ISSF is doing and I love it.
• 1:21:41
  I just love it.
• 1:21:42
  Absolutely love it.
• 1:21:42
  Just to let you know like I am propping this organization up.
• 1:21:45
  They don't pay me to come on here.
• 1:21:46
  They ask to come on.
• 1:21:48
  I said yes, let's talk about it because I love what they're doing.
• 1:21:51
  This is conservation, this is fisheries management, this is collaboration,
• 1:21:55
  and this is what we need more of.
• 1:21:56
  So I'd love to hear your comments and feedback on this episode.
• 1:22:00
  If you do have some, put 'em in the comments down below.
• 1:22:02
  If you're watching this on YouTube, if you're listening to this on the
• 1:22:05
  audio podcast and you feel like, Andrew, I need to talk to you
• 1:22:08
  about this, you know, hit me up.
• 1:22:09
  There's two ways to do so.
• 1:22:10
  You can go to speak up for blue.com/contact, fill out the form that
• 1:22:13
  goes right to my email, or you can DM me on Instagram at how to protect the Ocean.
• 1:22:18
  It's at how to protect the ocean.
• 1:22:20
  And of course, if you want to take more action and you want to be getting
• 1:22:23
  guided into taking more action for the ocean, you can join the undertow at
• 1:22:27
  Speak Up for blue.com/join the undertow.
• 1:22:30
  Join our community.
• 1:22:31
  There's a bit of a wait list.
• 1:22:32
  We're about to launch momentarily, but join the under Speak up for blue.com.
• 1:22:36
  Join the undertow.
• 1:22:37
  Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How
• 1:22:40
  to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
• 1:22:41
  I'm your host Angela, and from the true nor strong and free, have a great day.
• 1:22:44
  We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.