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From Biotech to Asset Management with Sunaina Sinha · Masters in Business

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Masters in
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Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ritholts on Bloomberg Radio.
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Speaker 2: This week on the podcast, yet another extra special guest,
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Speaker 2: Is There any Other Kind? Sanana Sinha is the global
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Speaker 2: head of Private Capital Advisory Group for Raymond James. The
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Speaker 2: Raymond James platform manages one point six trillion dollars in
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Speaker 2: total assets and advises on a whole lot more. Sanana
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Speaker 2: had stood up her own private capital group, Siebel Capital,
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Speaker 2: which was acquired by Raymond James, and she's been there
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Speaker 2: for the past three and a half years. She works
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Speaker 2: as an advisor for a number of LPs and gps
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Speaker 2: and pretty much everybody in between. If you're at all
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Speaker 2: interested in the growth in private equity, in private capital
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Speaker 2: and how this sector of the investment world is changing
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Speaker 2: and where it might go, I think you'll find this
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Speaker 2: to be a fascinating conversation. Sanana has a unique perch
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Speaker 2: in the world of not only venture and an angel investing,
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Speaker 2: but most especially private equity and private capital. I found
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Speaker 2: this conversation to be fascinating, and I think you will also.
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Speaker 2: With no further ado, my conversation with Raymond James Sanana Sinha.
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Speaker 2: Sanana Sinha, Welcome to Bloomberg.
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Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me very well.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming. So I was delving
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Speaker 2: through your background, and I had a first ask BS
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Speaker 2: in Management science and a master's in engineering and in
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Speaker 2: chemical engineering from Stanford where you were a Mayfield Fellow,
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Speaker 2: and then an NBA from Harvard. What was the original
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Speaker 2: career plan.
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Speaker 3: Well, the original career plan very much was to go
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Speaker 3: into the biotech industry, which is what I did after
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Speaker 3: I graduated from Stanford. Hence the masters and chemical engineering,
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Speaker 3: which was an unusual masterress to get after doing the
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Speaker 3: undergraduate in industrial engineering which was then relabeled as Management
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Speaker 3: Sciences and Engineering at Stanford, but it allowed me to
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Speaker 3: go into the healthcare vertical. Straight out of Stanford, I
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Speaker 3: worked for two small and medium sized businesses owned by
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Speaker 3: the same investor group and cut my teeth on those
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Speaker 3: and then realized as a result of that experience, firsually
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Speaker 3: was phenomenal experience. I was working directly with the CEO
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Speaker 3: and president of both companies, but I realized that the
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Speaker 3: biotech vertical was not my playing field for the long term.
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Speaker 3: Hence the NBA at Harvard to find another career path,
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Speaker 3: and that led me into asset management.
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Speaker 2: So the really interesting thing I for reasons between Stanford
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Speaker 2: and the fact that you're here via San Francisco. I
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Speaker 2: just assumed you were living out there, but you're not.
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Speaker 2: You're London based. Tell me how did you end up
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Speaker 2: picking Stanford? How did you end up in California?
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Speaker 3: You know, I grew up all over the world. They
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Speaker 3: call people like me third culture kids. They were born
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Speaker 3: in one place. So born in India, grew up in
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Speaker 3: many other places and then land up in another place altogether.
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Speaker 2: Well, when you say many other places, what I often
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Speaker 2: hear is, you know, India to London, to Boston, New York, California.
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Speaker 2: You seem to have traveled a little where else. Tell
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Speaker 2: me where you grew up.
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Speaker 3: So, my dad was a diplomat for the World Bank.
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Speaker 3: I grew up in Nigeria, in Legos, in Harari, Zimbabwe,
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Speaker 3: and then in Hanoi, Vietnam. I applied to universities from
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Speaker 3: colleges in the US and also in the UK. From Hanoi,
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Speaker 3: there were no places to take the SAT in Vietnam
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Speaker 3: back then, so we flew to Bangkok. My dad flew
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Speaker 3: me to BANKOK to take my SAT ones, and then
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Speaker 3: we flew back a few weeks later to take the
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Speaker 3: SAT twos, and I flew back again to do interviews,
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Speaker 3: and I was blessed enough to get into a number
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Speaker 3: of great US IVY leagues, but ended up choosing Stanford
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Speaker 3: because even then Berry I knew I was an entrepreneur
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Speaker 3: at heart. I wanted to build businesses, scale businesses, and
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Speaker 3: help other people scale their businesses. And Stanford had that
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Speaker 3: rag magic between entrepreneurship and technology and the nexus of
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Speaker 3: starting to grow things, which is what I wanted to
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Speaker 3: learn most.
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Speaker 2: We always pay attention to regions where there is a
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Speaker 2: pool of capital, a world class educational institution, and a
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Speaker 2: private sector that can combine all three. There's no doubt
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Speaker 2: Silicon Valley and Stanford is one of the leading places.
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Speaker 2: So if that's what you wanted to do, you certainly picked. Well,
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Speaker 2: how did you end up back in London as where
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Speaker 2: you wanted to live?
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Speaker 3: Yes, So I had the most incredible experience at Stanford.
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Speaker 3: Ended up working in the Bay Area straight after that,
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Speaker 3: still very close ties to Stanford, was still teaching a
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Speaker 3: class there over even after graduation and working with a
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Speaker 3: bunch of professors out there at the time. When it
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Speaker 3: came to picking where I wanted to do my MBA again,
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Speaker 3: I had the choice between the Stanford of the East
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Speaker 3: as I call Harvard Business School, but also to go
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Speaker 3: back to Stanford, and I knew that if I didn't leave,
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Speaker 3: then I may never leave the Barrier. It's such a
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Speaker 3: special place and such a special bastion, an ecosystem of
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Speaker 3: entrepreneurship and technology and growth and ideas. Made the decision
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Speaker 3: to leave just to try something new at that point,
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Speaker 3: went to Harvard for my MBA, and then had made
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Speaker 3: the choice at that point to switch out of biotech
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Speaker 3: and interviewed with a whole bunch of firms and ended
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Speaker 3: up getting into the hedge fund world, doing capital raising
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Speaker 3: for two large hedge funds, and one of them, Brevan Howard,
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Speaker 3: would was headquartered in London. So moved over to London
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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and nine, and the rest is history.
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Speaker 3: Have been a resident of London. My family would argue
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Speaker 3: with you Berry and argue with anybody who asked them
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Speaker 3: that I live on a plane, because I managed a
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Speaker 3: global business over seven offices, six of which happened to
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Speaker 3: be in the US. So I'm Stateside a lot and
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Speaker 3: also traveled the rest of Europe, but home very much
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Speaker 3: is London to so.
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Speaker 2: I want to rewind a little bit. I don't want
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Speaker 2: to skip that middle experience. So you were at a
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Speaker 2: couple of hedge funds. You were Bridgewater, which is headquartered
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Speaker 2: in Greenwich, Connecticut, and you were at Brevin Howard, which
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Speaker 2: was which is still headquartered in London. In either of
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Speaker 2: those cases, you weren't working as an investor, right you
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Speaker 2: were a research and analyst capital raiser. How did those
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Speaker 2: experiences at Bridgewater and Brevien Howard affect how you look
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Speaker 2: at the world of investing? Clearly two superstar funds that
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Speaker 2: have put together a really impressive long term track record.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely when it comes to any asset management business, very
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Speaker 3: two things important. Make smart investment decisions and have investors
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Speaker 3: to back you to do them right. And so I
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Speaker 3: knew I had to master in one of those those streams,
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Speaker 3: and the stream I picked was I do the capital
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Speaker 3: raising too. That enables the asset management industry engine to turn.
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Speaker 3: And both Bridgewater and Brevin Howard were incredible training grounds
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Speaker 3: to teach you just how to do that, but secondly,
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Speaker 3: how to cover investors systematically, and how to think about
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Speaker 3: the world in a holistic way and what levers drive
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Speaker 3: what others. Both for macro hedge funds as you know,
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Speaker 3: and understanding how macro markets work, how they interplay with
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Speaker 3: each other is incredibly important. I use that day to
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Speaker 3: day when I speak to my private equity clients today.
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Speaker 3: I use it all the time when it comes to
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Speaker 3: understanding how markets are going to affect different types of investors.
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Speaker 3: How does the oil price impact my sovereign wealth fund investors,
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Speaker 3: How does what's happening with rates impact endowments and pension plans.
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Speaker 3: All of it is incredibly interlinked. And it's that interlinkage
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Speaker 3: that macro thinking really teaches.
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Speaker 2: You, huh, really intriguing. So it's kind of interesting that
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Speaker 2: you're in private equity. You spend time in the world
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Speaker 2: of hedge funds, but you also made a number of
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Speaker 2: venture investments going back to the early twenty tens. Tell
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Speaker 2: us a little bit about how you sort of got
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Speaker 2: involved in seed and angel investing, very early stage venture investing.
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Speaker 3: You know, we all have to decide what our gifts
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Speaker 3: are to offer in the world. What of the gifts
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Speaker 3: I have to offer is how do you help businesses growth,
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Speaker 3: hack and get to the next level of scale. I
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Speaker 3: did that with two businesses early on in the early
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Speaker 3: twenty tens, as you say, I bought a business called
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Speaker 3: Barkres fitness boutique in the UK doing something new for
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Speaker 3: women by women. Grew that over a course of six
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Speaker 3: or seven years, very successful business, and sold that to
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Speaker 3: a private equity back Strategic. Did that again with a
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Speaker 3: business called Mindful Chef, a healthy recipe box business that
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Speaker 3: grew like gangbusters, especially over the COVID years, and sold
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Speaker 3: that to n Eslay as well. And now I'm chairperson
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Speaker 3: of the board of a publicly listed company called SFC Energy.
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Speaker 3: They do clean energy fuel cells and being able to
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Speaker 3: steer entrepreneurs and enable them to realize their vision and
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Speaker 3: think tactically as well as strategically as to how to
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Speaker 3: get there to help them do that, That's very much
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Speaker 3: something that helps me come alive every single day.
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Speaker 2: So let's expand on that. Most people, I would imagine
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Speaker 2: think of angel investing very different than private equity investing.
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Speaker 2: One is you're betting on a team, You're betting on
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Speaker 2: a founder and some innovative new idea where there may
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Speaker 2: not even be a market for that sort of thing.
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Speaker 2: Yet as opposed to taking existing company and management team
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Speaker 2: and product and saying here's how to level up, here's
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Speaker 2: how to make this more productive, efficient and really reach
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Speaker 2: your potential. What's the overlap or what skills you bring
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Speaker 2: from one to the other.
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Speaker 3: Well, I think the most important skill I bring is
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Speaker 3: the fact that I've started my own business, grown it
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Speaker 3: from scratch, and sold it to a fortune three hundred.
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Speaker 3: So I've seen all legs of this journey.
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Speaker 2: So not just an investor, but an operator.
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Speaker 3: An operator, and a grower of her own business. So
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Speaker 3: that's the first thing. The second thing is you are
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Speaker 3: absolutely right buried. The muscle it takes to grow from
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Speaker 3: zero to ten a revenue or zero to ten of
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Speaker 3: ibadah is very different from the journey that takes ten
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Speaker 3: from ten to one hundred and one hundred to a billion.
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Speaker 3: These are different muscles, and these are different levers in
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Speaker 3: the business but also levers in mindset. I've done zero
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Speaker 3: to ten quite a few times. So in my angel
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Speaker 3: investing businesses, it was very much that hey, how do
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Speaker 3: we get from zero to ten of ibadah? That takes
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Speaker 3: a certain amount of nimbleness, hunger, agility, scrappiness, and I
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Speaker 3: love that. Having done that myself, I know what that
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Speaker 3: feels like. I can relate to the entrepreneurs. I can
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Speaker 3: help them duck and weave through whatever's coming at them.
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Speaker 2: I'm sensing the word pivot coming.
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Speaker 3: I'm not going to use it because you used it already,
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Speaker 3: but you've got to be able to figure out what
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Speaker 3: I call the incomings. If life is throwing a lot
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Speaker 3: at you, the market throws a lot at you, and
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Speaker 3: what are you going to ignore and deflect? And what
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Speaker 3: are you going to say? Okay, that's the signal from
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Speaker 3: this noise. That's where I double click. That takes a
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Speaker 3: pattern recognition that I have. Now that said, over the
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Speaker 3: last few years, once I've sold my business to Raymond James,
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Speaker 3: I'm doing that second leg of the journey. How do
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Speaker 3: you something that's established, growing, proven, and really scale it.
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Speaker 3: And that's the same thing I'm doing with the public
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Speaker 3: board seat at SFC, helping that management team and that
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Speaker 3: board take an existing business of his business is doing,
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Speaker 3: you know, close to one hundred and fifteen million dollars
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Speaker 3: of revenue, you know, very profitable, growing organically thirty percent
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Speaker 3: year and year. How do you take that and scale
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Speaker 3: that to the next level? How do you make that
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Speaker 3: a billion dollar business? So now I'm trying my hand
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Speaker 3: at that second leg of the journey, but that first
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Speaker 3: leg of zero to ten that I've done a few
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Speaker 3: times over, and I think I've got real value to
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Speaker 3: add to entrepreneurs there.
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Speaker 2: So let me roll even further back. You launch Seable
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Speaker 2: Capital in twenty eleven. What made you decide I'm going
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Speaker 2: to throw out a whole new company that's focused on
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Speaker 2: was it venture or private equity?
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Speaker 3: At the beginning, it was focused both on private equity
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Speaker 3: and hedge funds, But within a year and a half
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Speaker 3: I retired all our hedge fund business because I could
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Speaker 3: see the capital inflows going into the private markets opportunity.
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Speaker 3: That was the right call to make. As you think
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Speaker 3: about the last decade, the influence into private equity have
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Speaker 3: been phenomenal, and we've been a great beneficiary of that,
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Speaker 3: of that flaw and that movement. But in the early days,
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Speaker 3: what enabled me to start, or what gave me the
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Speaker 3: conviction to start, was really the belief that build it
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Speaker 3: and they will come, and if they don't come, at
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Speaker 3: least you're enjoying the journey for yourself. I knew I
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Speaker 3: loved capital raising. I knew I could do that effectively,
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Speaker 3: and I could do that for a handful of clients.
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Speaker 3: And my goal very much was, let me give this
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Speaker 3: a shot, and if it doesn't work, I'll go out
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Speaker 3: and get the job again. I was in my early thirties.
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Speaker 3: I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have kids, I
12:35
Speaker 3: had very few liabilities. It was a risk, it was
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Speaker 3: a calculated one, and I'm very glad I took it
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Speaker 3: because it worked out beautifully. But it's not for the
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Speaker 3: feint of heart, that's for sure. Being an entrepreneur isn't anyway.
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Speaker 3: But being an entrepreneur in an industry like financial services,
12:49
Speaker 3: where there's these old and very incumbent eight hundred pound
12:53
Speaker 3: gorillas are all around you is certainly.
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Speaker 2: Not, to say the very least. You went to Stanford.
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Speaker 2: You were an adjunct professor, visiting guest professor.
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Speaker 3: I was a guest lecturer with engineering.
13:05
Speaker 2: Yes, but you're also on the advisory board for the
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Speaker 2: Stanford Institute of Economic Policy and Research. Tell us a
13:12
Speaker 2: little bit about what you do there and how that
13:14
Speaker 2: ties into your day job.
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Speaker 3: As you know, I love macro and I love thinking
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Speaker 3: about how policy and macro movements around markets around the
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Speaker 3: world really impact what's happening in the ground reality for
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Speaker 3: businesses that are run all over the world. The SEEPER,
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Speaker 3: as it's called, the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy and Research,
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Speaker 3: is an incredible congregation of leading economists, Nobel laureates, policy
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Speaker 3: advisors from all walks of life across Stanford around the
13:43
Speaker 3: world who joined the Institute to look at the big
13:46
Speaker 3: problems facing the world today and think about how do
13:49
Speaker 3: you solve them, how do you come at them. It
13:51
Speaker 3: could be from looking at how social security reform, or
13:55
Speaker 3: look at homelessness in California, or thinking about the age
14:00
Speaker 3: issue in Japan. They could look at any number of
14:03
Speaker 3: issues globally and parse it using the world's leading experts
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Speaker 3: and actually research how to come out at the other
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Speaker 3: side of it. Some of the most powerful research that
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Speaker 3: I've encountered at sipor being on that board, I'll give
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Speaker 3: you one that really astounded me. One of the researchers there,
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Speaker 3: Nick Bloom, has done some of the most definitive research
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Speaker 3: on flexible working and how it impacts productivity, retention, and
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Speaker 3: how it's very much here to stay or should be
14:30
Speaker 3: very much flies in the face of how some Wall
14:32
Speaker 3: Street banks think about the return to work. Fascinating empirical
14:36
Speaker 3: evidence there that he's collected. Another piece of research there
14:39
Speaker 3: that I'll quickly mention is work on labor force participation
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Speaker 3: by women dipping in the summer months as kids come
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Speaker 3: out to school. Interesting on how.
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Speaker 2: It's very seasonal, very seasonal.
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Speaker 3: What do we do about that that costs the US
14:52
Speaker 3: United States GDP growth in the summer months. Fascinating the
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Speaker 3: interlinkages between women, our education policy, labor force productivity, and
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Speaker 3: again ultimately the growth of the economy.
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Speaker 2: So early in the twenty tens, you were doing some
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Speaker 2: angel investing. Tell us what you were looking for, either
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Speaker 2: in sectors or technologies. What attracted you to the angel space.
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Speaker 3: What attracted me to that angel space was that I
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Speaker 3: was building my business and had skills in learnings I
15:21
Speaker 3: wanted to share. But more importantly, when I looked for
15:25
Speaker 3: businesses and entrepreneurs to back, it came down to two
15:29
Speaker 3: very important criteria. The first is people, people people. I
15:33
Speaker 3: learned that during my Mayfield Fellows Program journey at Stanford
15:37
Speaker 3: where that was drilled into us. It starts with the people.
15:40
Speaker 3: It ends with the people. And secondly, the companies and
15:43
Speaker 3: the products they were building had to do good and
15:46
Speaker 3: do well right that they had to have a positive
15:50
Speaker 3: impact on the community that they operated in. So if
15:54
Speaker 3: you think about the recipe food business that was all
15:56
Speaker 3: about healthy eating, the fitness business was all about an
16:00
Speaker 3: exercise program that's efficiently designed for women's bodies. You think
16:04
Speaker 3: about the clean energy business that I am now a
16:07
Speaker 3: chair on the board of that is all about clean
16:09
Speaker 3: energy fuel sell alternatives to diesel generators and to polluting
16:13
Speaker 3: generator types. So that's kind of the thematic that I
16:17
Speaker 3: lean into the most really interesting.
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Speaker 2: So you very easily could have either set this up
16:22
Speaker 2: as a VC fund or affiliated yourself with a venture group.
16:26
Speaker 2: What are the advantages to being an individual making single
16:30
Speaker 2: decision investments into a startup?
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Speaker 3: I think the biggest advantage is that there's full alignment
16:37
Speaker 3: because you're not operating with OPM other people's money. It
16:41
Speaker 3: is your money, it's your skin in the game. The
16:44
Speaker 3: alignment of interest is one thing that you learn in
16:46
Speaker 3: private equity and all private markets investing that it's all
16:49
Speaker 3: about alignment of interest. You can't exit these things unless
16:53
Speaker 3: you grow value and you're in sync with the founders
16:56
Speaker 3: and with the management teams because they're private businesses. So
16:59
Speaker 3: you've got to figure out if you have that match
17:02
Speaker 3: an alignment of both economic interest but also vision and
17:06
Speaker 3: execution forte into the next three to five year journey.
17:10
Speaker 3: That's the minimum amount of amount of time you'll be
17:12
Speaker 3: together for. So that's why I think doing it as
17:15
Speaker 3: an individual always gave me much more reward and also
17:20
Speaker 3: quite frankly, economic success than doing it as a fund investor.
17:24
Speaker 3: The other thing I'd add is that I found very
17:26
Speaker 3: early on that professionally speaking, in terms of my day job, Berry,
17:31
Speaker 3: what was I really good at. I was really good
17:33
Speaker 3: at the capital markets function. I was really good at
17:35
Speaker 3: the capital raising, liquidity organization started side of the business,
17:40
Speaker 3: and that's what Sibil Capital did. So I knew that
17:42
Speaker 3: was going to be my day to day jam and
17:44
Speaker 3: on the board of some of these companies I would
17:47
Speaker 3: be able to go and add the value of how
17:48
Speaker 3: to grow their business.
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Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about your day job.
17:52
Speaker 2: You set up Seeble Capital in London, right, that's where
17:55
Speaker 2: you found it. So before we get into the advisory
17:59
Speaker 2: services you provide, I'm a big angli phile. I love London,
18:03
Speaker 2: but there's such a difference between how they operate the
18:07
Speaker 2: economy and especially the financial sector. Let's talk a little
18:11
Speaker 2: bit about that. What's it like being Is it even
18:16
Speaker 2: by coastal your ny you know you're nylon producer, Jilan.
18:19
Speaker 2: That's right. How different is the UK finance from the US?
18:25
Speaker 2: And start the startup mentality? It seems that failure is
18:30
Speaker 2: not a dirty word in the US. I don't get
18:32
Speaker 2: that same vibe from Europe. Tell us a little bit
18:34
Speaker 2: about the differences.
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Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, operating in the UK and in Europe
18:39
Speaker 3: at large and the US are fundamentally different. Having been
18:42
Speaker 3: at Stanford worked in the Bay Area, I then went
18:45
Speaker 3: to Harvard and worked in the Boston ecosystem. Came out
18:49
Speaker 3: of New York. London was a bit of an adjustment,
18:52
Speaker 3: I will tell you that because the startup ecosystem, especially
18:55
Speaker 3: in the early twenty tens, there was nowhere near what
18:57
Speaker 3: it was in San Francisco and the area.
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Speaker 2: And I mean that's a well established mature, if you
19:04
Speaker 2: could say, mature startup cragian, but it is in the
19:08
Speaker 2: same with Boston and New York one.
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Speaker 3: Hundred percent and so starting SABIL Capital in London ended
19:13
Speaker 3: up being both a blessing and a curse. Why was
19:15
Speaker 3: it blessing? It was a blessing because there was not
19:18
Speaker 3: that many startups there period. There was not that many
19:21
Speaker 3: new entrepreneurs starting financial services companies, and so it made
19:26
Speaker 3: us very unique and able to differentiate ourselves in the
19:29
Speaker 3: UK and European market very quickly. There were not that
19:31
Speaker 3: many new entrants, and we use that to our advantage
19:34
Speaker 3: and often still do. Although the market has definitely come
19:36
Speaker 3: a long way, there are still divergences and how uneasey
19:39
Speaker 3: of doing business. But it became very clear to me
19:42
Speaker 3: Bery very quickly on we would have to diversify our
19:45
Speaker 3: business to be US focused, and so we opened our
19:48
Speaker 3: first office in New York few years after we started,
19:51
Speaker 3: and we've been heavily focused on the US private equity
19:54
Speaker 3: clients and US institutional investors. Have done so from day one,
19:58
Speaker 3: knowing that actually the US market is much deeper and
20:00
Speaker 3: much larger than UK or Europe could ever be. But
20:03
Speaker 3: also the speed of doing business varies quite dramatically.
20:07
Speaker 2: So we've talked about the startup and angel world, let's
20:11
Speaker 2: talk about the advisory work you do for private equity,
20:16
Speaker 2: both in London and the US. I keep coming back
20:19
Speaker 2: to there seems to be such a difference between how
20:22
Speaker 2: companies operate there and how companies operate here. Every now
20:26
Speaker 2: and then a European company comes to the US and succeeds,
20:30
Speaker 2: but more often than not they have a hard time adjusting.
20:34
Speaker 2: And I imagine the same as true vice versa when
20:37
Speaker 2: a US company goes to the UK, at least outside
20:40
Speaker 2: of finance. Finance seems to have found a foothold in
20:44
Speaker 2: Europe from the US. Why the big cultural difference is
20:48
Speaker 2: what is it about the psychology there and here that
20:51
Speaker 2: creates such a different business and investing environment.
20:56
Speaker 3: I think that it depends on what type of investing
20:58
Speaker 3: you do. At its heart, private equity is about builo
21:01
Speaker 3: sell high right. It's a long only strategy in the
21:04
Speaker 3: private markets. So you got to buy a business and
21:07
Speaker 3: you've got to know that you have to add value
21:09
Speaker 3: and make it larger, better, stronger, and then sell it on.
21:13
Speaker 3: So number of the clients we have are pure play
21:16
Speaker 3: regional focused. So we have a German private Egrey client,
21:20
Speaker 3: we have a Benelux private Aqua client, we have a
21:23
Speaker 3: NORDICX private equity client. We've got UK clients and they
21:28
Speaker 3: are experts in understanding what needs to happen to grow
21:32
Speaker 3: their businesses and their companies that they're buying and selling
21:35
Speaker 3: in their target market. They know the customer base, they
21:39
Speaker 3: know how to impact the value drivers i e. On
21:42
Speaker 3: the talent acquisition side, on the add on Bolton strategy side.
21:46
Speaker 3: They know how to do that in their regional markets
21:49
Speaker 3: incredibly well.
21:49
Speaker 2: And I just want to interrupt and say, is it
21:52
Speaker 2: that different from Germany to the Netherlands, to Sweden to
21:55
Speaker 2: the UK? Like completely Like in the United States, New
22:00
Speaker 2: York is in Florida, Florida's in Texas. Texas is in California.
22:04
Speaker 2: But you could hop from one place to another, and
22:07
Speaker 2: it's not so different that you can adjust to the
22:11
Speaker 2: regional We more or less speak kind of the same
22:14
Speaker 2: language throughout the country. Maybe there are some dialects and differences,
22:18
Speaker 2: but you know the general gestalt of California, New York, Texas. Yeah,
22:24
Speaker 2: the politics may be different, but the business seems to
22:26
Speaker 2: be the same. That's not true when you're a visit.
22:29
Speaker 3: It depends on the size of businesses you're buying. Right,
22:33
Speaker 3: If you're buying businesses that are up to say ten
22:37
Speaker 3: or twenty million dollars or euros of EBIDAB, then it
22:41
Speaker 3: really matters that you're a regional champion, right that you
22:44
Speaker 3: understand how a German business can scale in that end
22:47
Speaker 3: of the market versus how a Nordic business will scale.
22:52
Speaker 3: So they're having regional footholds and expertise really matters. But
22:55
Speaker 3: when you're doing larger businesses and we have clients that
22:58
Speaker 3: are pan regional, that are your P and PAN European
23:01
Speaker 3: buyout players, or there are global buyout players that do
23:04
Speaker 3: global deals US and Europe, but they do them for
23:08
Speaker 3: larger businesses, and larger businesses often tend to have global
23:11
Speaker 3: customers because by definition, you've got to make sure you've
23:13
Speaker 3: diversified your revenue out So it depends on what scale
23:17
Speaker 3: of business you're doing. But even if you are the
23:20
Speaker 3: largest private equity funds out there, they will have local
23:23
Speaker 3: offices if they know they need to operate in the
23:25
Speaker 3: Italian market, they'll have presence in Milan, or they'll have
23:28
Speaker 3: Italian experts in house that know how to operate and
23:32
Speaker 3: buy businesses in Milan, or they'll have sector experts if
23:36
Speaker 3: because a software business in Italy is going to be
23:39
Speaker 3: very similar to software business in Texas. It might the
23:42
Speaker 3: operating environment might change, but the characteristics of business and
23:45
Speaker 3: how you drive value in that business will often be
23:47
Speaker 3: very similar. So you've got to make sure you're either
23:50
Speaker 3: a sector or a regional expert, and that often depends
23:53
Speaker 3: on the size of business you buy.
23:55
Speaker 2: So you've lived in Africa, You've lived in India, you've
23:58
Speaker 2: lived in Vietnam, been to Thailand and all over Asia.
24:02
Speaker 2: Have you thought of expanding to some of these other
24:05
Speaker 2: continents or is it just US and Europe.
24:07
Speaker 3: We do cover Asian and Middle Eastern investors in my
24:10
Speaker 3: business prolifically and have done from almost the first day
24:13
Speaker 3: of inception. You cannot ignore the rest of the world.
24:17
Speaker 3: As you know, the sovereign wealth funds and the institutions
24:19
Speaker 3: in the Middle East are big movers in the market today,
24:22
Speaker 3: and that's today. I started covering Middle Eastern institutions when
24:26
Speaker 3: I first opened the doors of the business now fourteen
24:29
Speaker 3: years ago. And fourteen years ago people were like, I
24:32
Speaker 3: don't know if I need to go over there. It's
24:34
Speaker 3: a huge investment of time and air my airfare and
24:37
Speaker 3: so forth. Well, now everyone's saying I wish I'd built
24:40
Speaker 3: those relationships long ago, because relationships die hard in those
24:43
Speaker 3: markets Asia and Middle East, and those relationships I've had
24:47
Speaker 3: and my team has had for a long time.
24:49
Speaker 2: Huh. So let's talk a little bit about valuation in
24:52
Speaker 2: the public markets. Hard to say, fourth quarter twenty twenty four,
24:57
Speaker 2: US markets aren't at the very least fully priced, if
25:01
Speaker 2: not richly priced. When we look at the UK, when
25:04
Speaker 2: we look at Europe much much less expensive, we see
25:08
Speaker 2: a lot of companies trading at book value, not the
25:11
Speaker 2: same growth level that we see in the US. Does
25:15
Speaker 2: that valuation difference in the public markets extend to private
25:19
Speaker 2: markets as well?
25:20
Speaker 3: So, firstly, let's comment on the public market side, that
25:24
Speaker 3: is characterized very much. That valuation gap is characterized by
25:28
Speaker 3: the depth of the markets. The US capital markets vibrant,
25:31
Speaker 3: incredibly dynamic, incredible fragmentation of investors, deep rich market where
25:38
Speaker 3: you can do business on the capital market size presseemously.
25:41
Speaker 2: And I would add, plus all these giant mega tech
25:46
Speaker 2: companies that certainly have rich valuations in skew, whether it's
25:50
Speaker 2: a Nazaq one hundred or the S and P five hundred. Yes,
25:53
Speaker 2: you know, there's a handful of them. Overseas, Taiwan Semiconductor, asmathroography,
25:58
Speaker 2: you can name SAP, you can name like a handful,
26:01
Speaker 2: but most of the big ones are here, which certainly
26:04
Speaker 2: the valuation on the public side, what do you see
26:07
Speaker 2: on the private side.
26:08
Speaker 3: On the private side, we see a similar valuation gap
26:11
Speaker 3: that and I'll just finish the public market side. The
26:13
Speaker 3: UK and the European capital markets just don't have the
26:15
Speaker 3: same depth, which is why you see the valuation, missed pricing.
26:18
Speaker 2: So you think it's more than just the tech companies.
26:20
Speaker 3: It's the structure, it's structural, there's not that many participants.
26:24
Speaker 3: It's also legal and regulatory. Right in the UK, there
26:28
Speaker 3: was a move away from holding UK assets by the
26:32
Speaker 3: UK pension plans that suck the liquidity out of the
26:35
Speaker 3: UK markets, hence the valuation gap. So there's also regulatory
26:38
Speaker 3: angles that are at play there on the private markets,
26:42
Speaker 3: though I've got to agree with you entirely, there is
26:45
Speaker 3: evaluation arbitrage even in the private markets that the European
26:49
Speaker 3: buyout specialists are able to buy companies at better value
26:53
Speaker 3: in Europe and scale them into global businesses and sell
26:56
Speaker 3: them at global valuations or US market valuation. It comes
27:01
Speaker 3: down to selling time. So some of the biggest best
27:04
Speaker 3: private equity household names that you know, whether it's a
27:07
Speaker 3: Blackstone or an Apax or a Clayton, Dubley and Rice
27:10
Speaker 3: have headquarters both sides of the pond because there's so
27:14
Speaker 3: much value to be harvested by buying smartly in Europe
27:18
Speaker 3: and an advantage quite honestly evaluation arbitrage that you can
27:21
Speaker 3: play all day long, and many of them do so
27:23
Speaker 3: very successfully.
27:24
Speaker 2: So you're advising a lot of players in the private
27:27
Speaker 2: equity market. Is it general partners gps the funds that
27:32
Speaker 2: are essentially running Are they LPs and investors or do
27:36
Speaker 2: you advise across the whole space.
27:38
Speaker 3: We sit in between the gps and their LPs when
27:41
Speaker 3: it comes to and we will raise everything from a
27:43
Speaker 3: small for us would be a two hundred and fifteen
27:45
Speaker 3: million dollar fund and our largest client to raise twenty
27:48
Speaker 3: seven billion in their flask fund, okay, and everybody in between.
27:52
Speaker 3: In the last year alone, we raised north of four
27:55
Speaker 3: billion of new capital commitments for our clients and are
27:59
Speaker 3: very prolific at ensuring that private equity general partners raise
28:04
Speaker 3: the capital they need to go off and buy businesses
28:06
Speaker 3: and build the ecosystems around each of their businesses. So
28:09
Speaker 3: we sit right in between general partners and limited partners.
28:14
Speaker 3: Got a team of over sixty people or seven offices,
28:16
Speaker 3: raising capital for our clients but also intermediating in the
28:20
Speaker 3: liquidity side of the equation in private markets. As you know,
28:23
Speaker 3: in the public markets, the second resistance market is much
28:26
Speaker 3: larger than the primarysurance market. In private markets today it's flipped.
28:31
Speaker 2: But that means explain what you mean by that, Why
28:34
Speaker 2: is that? How is that flipped?
28:35
Speaker 3: Well, in private markets today there is a one point
28:39
Speaker 3: six trillion dollars new capital raising engine that hums along annually.
28:45
Speaker 3: That's how much capital is raised across private market funds
28:49
Speaker 3: in a twelve month rolling cycle.
28:51
Speaker 2: And to just put a little flesh on that, go
28:54
Speaker 2: back to before you launched Sebral, private equity was a
28:58
Speaker 2: trillion dollars now ten twelve trillion, and it's projected to
29:02
Speaker 2: go up to twenty something trillion. Absolutely, so this has
29:06
Speaker 2: certainly been ramping up rapidly, and your timing was quite
29:10
Speaker 2: for two to say you get twenty eleven.
29:12
Speaker 3: Yes, very lucky to have launched then, but you're absolutely right.
29:15
Speaker 3: But the secondaries market in private markets is only one
29:19
Speaker 3: hundred and forty hundred and fifty billion dollars in size,
29:22
Speaker 3: but growing rapidly. That market, when we first did our
29:25
Speaker 3: first secondaries transactions as a firm in twenty twelve, was
29:29
Speaker 3: only twenty billion, a drop in the bucket. Today it's
29:32
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty billion, still small compared to the
29:34
Speaker 3: size of the primary private equity market. But these investors
29:38
Speaker 3: want liquidity too, Berry, you could help something eight years,
29:41
Speaker 3: nine years, ten years, you want out? Who do you
29:44
Speaker 3: go to? You've got to call a market maker like
29:46
Speaker 3: ourselves who can make an advice on that position in
29:50
Speaker 3: the secondaries private equity market to get you liquidity. Can
29:53
Speaker 3: I get you a one fun fact?
29:54
Speaker 2: Sure?
29:55
Speaker 3: The average age of a private equity fund sixteen point
29:59
Speaker 3: two year.
30:00
Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy.
30:02
Speaker 3: It says ten on the tin. It's ten with two
30:04
Speaker 3: one year extensions, so up to twelve. But the average
30:08
Speaker 3: vehicle is around for average is around for sixteen point
30:11
Speaker 3: two years. Hence the need for the secondary's market to
30:15
Speaker 3: provide liquidity for investors who want out.
30:18
Speaker 2: So, just for the lay listener, I want to do
30:21
Speaker 2: a little definitional work here. So for when we talk
30:24
Speaker 2: about a ten year fund, you're putting money into a
30:27
Speaker 2: private equity fund. Over the course of that decade, they're
30:30
Speaker 2: making various investments. There's no guarantee in year eleven that
30:35
Speaker 2: all of those investments have found an exit, so there'll
30:38
Speaker 2: be a series of extensions, and even after those extensions,
30:42
Speaker 2: all right, the fund is arguably inactive, but we're trying
30:46
Speaker 2: to find an exit for this. A secondary market is
30:50
Speaker 2: one way that can take place. It gets people who
30:53
Speaker 2: are in that liquid and hopefully at a discount. For
30:57
Speaker 2: the buyers who come in and say we'll take this
31:00
Speaker 2: at X price, We'll give them liquidly, and then it's
31:04
Speaker 2: year one for us, not year twelve. So there are
31:06
Speaker 2: different timelines. Is that fair explained?
31:09
Speaker 3: It? Very, very beautifully. The only new ones I'd add
31:11
Speaker 3: to that is that that liquidity can be asked for
31:14
Speaker 3: by both the limited partner so i e. The investor
31:18
Speaker 3: and the fund itself. And we get asked by pension plans,
31:21
Speaker 3: endowmas foundations, family offices saying hey, we've held this portfolio
31:26
Speaker 3: now for eight years, nine years, it's getting along in
31:28
Speaker 3: the tooth. Or actually my predecessor made these investments. I'm
31:32
Speaker 3: the new CIO. Can you sell this stuff for me,
31:35
Speaker 3: I don't like it anymore, or I've actually realized the
31:38
Speaker 3: gains I thought I would realize much sooner than I expected.
31:42
Speaker 3: Can you sell this on for me? All reasons to
31:44
Speaker 3: seek liquidity on the limited partner site, and we do
31:47
Speaker 3: that all day every day. Actually, I've done one hundred
31:49
Speaker 3: and sixty three transactions in that space alone in the
31:51
Speaker 3: last decade. And we also organize a liquidity when the
31:55
Speaker 3: general partner asks us. Sometimes a general partner will say, actually,
31:59
Speaker 3: can can you help organize liquidity for a company that
32:02
Speaker 3: needs to be sold out of the fund because the
32:04
Speaker 3: fund is reaching its end of life. The fund needs
32:06
Speaker 3: to sell some companies, but I general partner want to
32:09
Speaker 3: hold on to it longer, so pull it out of
32:12
Speaker 3: the fund and put it in its own fund. And
32:14
Speaker 3: that is called the continuation vehicle space. And that's something
32:17
Speaker 3: we do all day every day. As well.
32:18
Speaker 2: We've been experiencing something here in the US that I
32:22
Speaker 2: find kind of fascinating, and I'm giving you a perch.
32:25
Speaker 2: I'm really curious as to what you see in the
32:28
Speaker 2: UK and Europe or the rest of the world. Over
32:31
Speaker 2: the past decade, there has been, for lack of a
32:34
Speaker 2: better word, a democratization of private equity and private debt.
32:39
Speaker 2: You used to need twenty or ten million dollars to
32:43
Speaker 2: participate in this. I think you can get into a
32:45
Speaker 2: number of places for a quarter million, one hundred thousand
32:48
Speaker 2: dollars less, very less. So this has you know, when
32:53
Speaker 2: I look around at Blackstone and Carlisle and so many
32:55
Speaker 2: of the big pe firms in the US, they have
33:00
Speaker 2: set up parallel funds where you know, there's really practically
33:04
Speaker 2: no minimum. Is this trend something that's us focused? Are
33:08
Speaker 2: you seeing this in the UK and Europe? Tell us
33:11
Speaker 2: a little bit about private equity for everybody.
33:15
Speaker 3: Absolutely, the entrance of private wealth into private markets, but
33:19
Speaker 3: private equity in particular has been the single biggest innovation
33:25
Speaker 3: and movement of capital from LP investors into private markets
33:30
Speaker 3: in the last five years. It's been happening. It's started
33:33
Speaker 3: off over the last decade, but it's really over the
33:36
Speaker 3: last three to five years we've seen an acceleration. And
33:39
Speaker 3: here's the most important fact that as ultra high networth
33:43
Speaker 3: and high net worth individuals build out their portfolios, they're
33:47
Speaker 3: putting equities, they're putting bonds, and they're putting alternatives, and
33:50
Speaker 3: alternatives being led by private markets. The average investor in
33:56
Speaker 3: private wealth is under allocated to private equity by three
33:59
Speaker 3: to five x three to five hundred percent. That is
34:03
Speaker 3: a huge number. And so the growth of private wealth
34:07
Speaker 3: as an investor in private markets has absolutely exploded over
34:11
Speaker 3: the last two years and will continue to do so
34:13
Speaker 3: in over the next decade or so. And it's a
34:16
Speaker 3: global phenomena. Of course, the US led the way, and
34:20
Speaker 3: certainly the forty Act regulation of allowing semi liquid evergreen
34:25
Speaker 3: products and individuals to invest on those was a huge
34:29
Speaker 3: game change when it came to private wealth's interest in alternatives.
34:33
Speaker 3: We're seeing the same thing in Europe. We're seeing the
34:35
Speaker 3: same thing in Asia that individuals who have a certain
34:39
Speaker 3: net worth are saying, I want a bit of private
34:43
Speaker 3: equity in my portfolio, how do I go out to
34:45
Speaker 3: get it? And more and more sponsors are saying, well,
34:47
Speaker 3: I'm going to create solutions for you to access my
34:49
Speaker 3: funds and product and my alpha through accessible channels.
34:53
Speaker 2: So in the US, when this really began to get
34:57
Speaker 2: popular in the twenty tens, one of the big drivers
35:01
Speaker 2: was zero interest rates, this ZIP policy where when bonds
35:06
Speaker 2: are yielding you know, two two and a half percent
35:09
Speaker 2: that side of the portfolio really wasn't producing anything, and
35:13
Speaker 2: people started looking around, Hey, where can I get better
35:16
Speaker 2: yield private debt? Private equity stepped into that and really
35:20
Speaker 2: filled that gap, especially for institutional investors. So I look
35:25
Speaker 2: around the world and we had, you know, rates that
35:28
Speaker 2: were zero for a decade. How significant was that as
35:32
Speaker 2: a driver? And then what does it mean now that
35:34
Speaker 2: rates are you know, appreciably higher than they were in
35:37
Speaker 2: the twenty tens.
35:38
Speaker 3: There's no doubt that rates being low helped investors seek
35:42
Speaker 3: yield and seek alpha in different markets, including in private markets.
35:46
Speaker 3: But also it helped private equity do deals right, leverage,
35:49
Speaker 3: biot requise leverage, and when rates were so low, they
35:52
Speaker 3: leverage when it was cheap and easily accessible, and they
35:56
Speaker 3: used it for that decade of boom that we had
35:58
Speaker 3: until rates started going up. Now that roads have gone up,
36:02
Speaker 3: but they are coming back down, we can always discuss
36:05
Speaker 3: what neutral looks like. What we have is now investors
36:08
Speaker 3: seeking where do I invest that I can still find
36:11
Speaker 3: value in given how expensive the public markets are? Right
36:14
Speaker 3: you think about the forward pe of the public markets today,
36:18
Speaker 3: where do I still get relative value? Where I can
36:21
Speaker 3: buy at sensible multiples and sell at higher ones private markets.
36:25
Speaker 3: So it's a diversification strategy. And secondly, it's an incredibly
36:29
Speaker 3: important way for investors to say that as I think
36:32
Speaker 3: about a balanced portfolio, I want to seek investments in
36:37
Speaker 3: folks who really know how to add value to businesses
36:40
Speaker 3: over a period of time, So they'll do that only
36:43
Speaker 3: in general partners who have a track record, and that
36:46
Speaker 3: track record is often anywhere between fifteen to twenty two
36:50
Speaker 3: to twenty three percent net IRRs, and that track record
36:54
Speaker 3: really matters. So you have to be able to return
36:56
Speaker 3: money over the neutral rate, otherwise are not going to
37:00
Speaker 3: be viable. Even the best private credit funds will return
37:03
Speaker 3: high single digits or low teens type of returns, which
37:07
Speaker 3: is very much a good diversifier and an addition to
37:10
Speaker 3: private wealth portfolios.
37:12
Speaker 2: And one of the things I noticed whenever I see
37:14
Speaker 2: a private debt or a private credit it used to
37:17
Speaker 2: be liboard. Now at SOFRA, it's not a fixed rate,
37:20
Speaker 2: it's a variable rate plus some markup beyond that. So
37:26
Speaker 2: kind of raises the question low interest rates first sent
37:30
Speaker 2: people exploring this aspect of private markets and private credit
37:34
Speaker 2: and debt. Do higher rates really have a negative impact,
37:39
Speaker 2: or you're still getting whatever the SOFA rate is plus
37:44
Speaker 2: five six seven percent.
37:45
Speaker 3: Yes, for sure you're going to get a if you're
37:48
Speaker 3: comparing to SOFA, you're definitely going to get a return
37:51
Speaker 3: normalization which did happen when rates were in twenty two
37:55
Speaker 3: to twenty three, less deals got done because at higher
37:58
Speaker 3: rates private equity funds had a difficult time brawing. You know,
38:01
Speaker 3: the debt markets were shut, so deal value values came down.
38:04
Speaker 3: If you look at the M and A volumes that
38:06
Speaker 3: at most of the major investment banks, including at raymag Jes,
38:09
Speaker 3: volumes came down. Now they're on their way back up.
38:11
Speaker 3: But your point is a salient one. How does it
38:13
Speaker 3: impact returns? You have to be able to show if
38:16
Speaker 3: you're doing private equity buyouts, you've got to be able
38:18
Speaker 3: to show that you can do fifteen points over for
38:20
Speaker 3: so far.
38:21
Speaker 2: Right, fifteen that's a big number, ten.
38:23
Speaker 3: To fifteen points. If you are a mid market private
38:26
Speaker 3: equity house, you are returning twenty percent net IRRs. That's
38:29
Speaker 3: kind of what you have to show fund on fund
38:32
Speaker 3: and that's interesting. That's why you're added to a portfolio
38:35
Speaker 3: if you're a private debt strategy. Obviously, not private debt
38:38
Speaker 3: will be more like low teens type of numbers. Somewhere
38:41
Speaker 3: they're ten to thirteen percent net range. But even that
38:44
Speaker 3: is value add when you think about a debt strategy
38:47
Speaker 3: that you know, because even in public market debts, you're
38:50
Speaker 3: not able to find that type of yield. So as
38:53
Speaker 3: rates come down, as money gets pushed out of t bills,
38:56
Speaker 3: gets pushed out of money market accounts and starts to
38:59
Speaker 3: seek yields again, private markets become interesting to a lot
39:02
Speaker 3: of players.
39:03
Speaker 2: Huh, really interesting. You mentioned the transaction numbers slid down
39:08
Speaker 2: and then came back up again. Does that impact the
39:11
Speaker 2: secondaries you've done? You guys have done over two hundred
39:14
Speaker 2: secondaries and fundraising transactions. That's a pretty big number for
39:18
Speaker 2: a relatively short period of time. How have you seen
39:21
Speaker 2: the volumes on secondaries affected by swinging interest rates?
39:26
Speaker 3: So there was a dip in the secondaries of markets
39:29
Speaker 3: transacting volumes in twenty twenty three, in particular, as rates
39:34
Speaker 3: were high and investors didn't know what impact that had
39:38
Speaker 3: on valuation. If you remember first half of twenty twenty three,
39:41
Speaker 3: the world froze because you had fed raising interest rates
39:45
Speaker 3: and all other central banks you had Ukraine and Russia.
39:48
Speaker 3: You had Silicon Valley Bank and then you had Credit Swiss,
39:51
Speaker 3: so everybody was deer in headlines, going what on earth
39:54
Speaker 3: is going on? Volumes came down that year in secondaries
39:57
Speaker 3: market as well as an M and A. Now those
40:00
Speaker 3: volumes have gone up this year. Twenty twenty four will
40:03
Speaker 3: be another high water mark for the secondary's market in
40:06
Speaker 3: terms of transacted volumes. And that's because as the private
40:10
Speaker 3: markets grow, the need for liquidity and a liquidity solution
40:14
Speaker 3: over the period of that ten to fifteen year old
40:17
Speaker 3: becomes all the more pertinent for both limited partners and
40:20
Speaker 3: general partners. So now regardless of what the rates are doing,
40:23
Speaker 3: you have investors saying, you know what, every year or
40:26
Speaker 3: every two years, I'm going to sell in the secondaries
40:28
Speaker 3: market and move that cash into other more opportunistic situations,
40:33
Speaker 3: back into a program that will reield me a higher
40:35
Speaker 3: return because I've made what I needed to make out
40:37
Speaker 3: of this portfolio. That's become programmatic amongst many institutional investors.
40:41
Speaker 2: So I love the word opportunistic. When in the public markets,
40:46
Speaker 2: when we get those dislocations and people use the word freeze.
40:51
Speaker 2: In public markets, we use the word panic because they
40:53
Speaker 2: have the liquidity to engage in bad behavior. It definitely
40:58
Speaker 2: creates opportunities. When you see in the private markets people
41:02
Speaker 2: polling back and freezing, do you end up seeing the
41:05
Speaker 2: same sort of Hey, this is a substantial discount. I
41:08
Speaker 2: want to participate in this.
41:09
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, Berry. It all comes down to the
41:11
Speaker 3: discount and other willing sellers sellers at the price. There's
41:14
Speaker 3: always a price. I'll give you one anecdote. One fund
41:17
Speaker 3: interest we sold traded at eight and a half cents
41:20
Speaker 3: on the dollar, eight and a half real There was
41:22
Speaker 3: a seller who said, get me any price I want out.
41:25
Speaker 3: I don't want to hold this anymore. Okay, this was
41:28
Speaker 3: I'm going back to twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, But there
41:31
Speaker 3: was a buyer at eight and a half percent of
41:33
Speaker 3: anav of net ascid value. Great, you have all the
41:36
Speaker 3: cushion in the world, and you look like a genius
41:38
Speaker 3: when you do your markups the next quarter.
41:40
Speaker 2: Even in the worst of the financial crisis, bad mortgages
41:44
Speaker 2: pools of bad mortgages, right, they were selling for thirty
41:47
Speaker 2: five forty cents seemed like a huge deal. Ninety two
41:50
Speaker 2: and a half percent off ninety one and a half
41:52
Speaker 2: percent off. That's unbelievable.
41:54
Speaker 3: That was in an Asian manager in twenty thirteen. But
41:57
Speaker 3: I will say the average discount these days, the best
42:00
Speaker 3: private equity fund managers do not trade at discounts. They
42:03
Speaker 3: close it close to their net asset values. They trade
42:06
Speaker 3: close to par. But the average discount when it comes
42:09
Speaker 3: to the average buyout fund is somewhere in the four
42:12
Speaker 3: to eight percent range for the average private equity buyout fund.
42:15
Speaker 3: If you hold venture, especially if it's got a lot
42:17
Speaker 3: of fintech in it, these days, that's going at thirty
42:20
Speaker 3: to fifty percent discount because it's really hard to value
42:23
Speaker 3: that stuff. As you know, venture and growth is often
42:26
Speaker 3: valued that it's last rounds valuation. Well, if your last
42:29
Speaker 3: round was back in the boomyrrors and all you've done
42:31
Speaker 3: is try to tread water and maybe raise some debt,
42:34
Speaker 3: you don't have a valid print. So we are seeing
42:37
Speaker 3: a lot more spread a bit asport is very wide
42:40
Speaker 3: in the venture and growth world right now when it
42:42
Speaker 3: comes to buyouts, especially mid market large cap buyout at
42:45
Speaker 3: or close to par in the nineties.
42:47
Speaker 2: Huh. Really interesting. So you mentioned deal flow has ticked up.
42:52
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that'll continue into next year. What are some
42:55
Speaker 2: of the challenges and headwinds that are out there that
42:59
Speaker 2: could be something an investor in the space should be
43:02
Speaker 2: aware of.
43:03
Speaker 3: I think the one that's most salient, that we track
43:05
Speaker 3: most closely bury is the fact that because the math
43:09
Speaker 3: broke at the investor level in n twenty to early
43:12
Speaker 3: twenty three, we're still playing catch up on that. What
43:14
Speaker 3: does that even mean. It means that the exit activity
43:17
Speaker 3: the M and A volumes, the ability to sell companies
43:20
Speaker 3: and return cash to institutional investors really slowed down from
43:25
Speaker 3: summer twenty two onwards, as we had inflation, as we
43:27
Speaker 3: had Ukraine, as we had some of the macro.
43:29
Speaker 2: Challenges, plus a pretty public market at the same time.
43:33
Speaker 3: And a very ugly public market. So at that point,
43:37
Speaker 3: institutional investors stopped seeing very much cash back from their
43:41
Speaker 3: private equity portfolios. They were still having to pay into
43:44
Speaker 3: those capital calls that were being made by their private
43:46
Speaker 3: equity clients because the contribution still kept coming in saying
43:50
Speaker 3: I want to do a new deal, I want to
43:51
Speaker 3: do an add on. Here's some management fees and expenses
43:53
Speaker 3: you need to fund. But the cash back froze. Now
43:57
Speaker 3: we're starting to come out of that now, but that
44:00
Speaker 3: math is still nowhere near where it needs to be.
44:02
Speaker 2: I e.
44:03
Speaker 3: The private equity industry needs to return a lot more
44:06
Speaker 3: cash back to its investors. The capital markets need to
44:09
Speaker 3: open because some of the largest private equity funds you
44:11
Speaker 3: have out there need to list some of those businesses,
44:14
Speaker 3: and we haven't seen the IPO window open the US
44:17
Speaker 3: or Europe in the last year in a meaningful and
44:20
Speaker 3: sustainable way. We need all of that math to write
44:23
Speaker 3: in itself before institutional investors kind of come back to
44:26
Speaker 3: their normal levels of allocating to private equity. Where institutions
44:30
Speaker 3: have pulled back, private wealth has stepped in. We had
44:32
Speaker 3: that discussion, but the institutional investor has pulled back. The
44:36
Speaker 3: average pension plan, the average endownment, the average foundation, the
44:40
Speaker 3: average insurance company, if they used to do one hundred
44:43
Speaker 3: dollars per fund investment last time around, this go around,
44:48
Speaker 3: there are seventy five to eighty percent of that only,
44:51
Speaker 3: So for them to come back to the one hundred dollars,
44:53
Speaker 3: we need the private equity industry to sell companies and
44:56
Speaker 3: return cash back to them. It's getting better twenty f better.
45:00
Speaker 3: Amberinet volumes that twenty twenty three was, but is it
45:03
Speaker 3: back to what it was in twenty one. No, sir,
45:05
Speaker 3: we're not back there yet. You know.
45:06
Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of what happened in the
45:08
Speaker 2: automobile market during the pandemic. When you're not making a
45:12
Speaker 2: lot of new cars, it means a few years later
45:15
Speaker 2: there are not a lot of used cars for sale.
45:17
Speaker 2: Sounds like it's the same situation where you have a
45:19
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two slow down twenty twenty five, where the
45:23
Speaker 2: exits am I oversimplifying that.
45:26
Speaker 3: I picked a really interesting and analogy, and I like
45:29
Speaker 3: it because that is what is happening. And now we're
45:32
Speaker 3: at the point where a lot of companies that were
45:34
Speaker 3: bought in the twenty twenty one era need to be sold.
45:37
Speaker 3: And some of our clients have been prolific at returning
45:40
Speaker 3: that capital back. In fact, I've done a great job
45:42
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four of exiting those businesses and returning
45:46
Speaker 3: cash back to investors. Others not so much. Others need
45:48
Speaker 3: to pick up the speed on that. And as an industry,
45:50
Speaker 3: if you look at the entirety of the industry, let
45:52
Speaker 3: me give you some numbers. The average returns that investors
45:57
Speaker 3: get cash back that they used to distributions as a
46:01
Speaker 3: percentage of the total value held in private equities generally
46:05
Speaker 3: around twenty four percent. In twenty three, that number dip
46:08
Speaker 3: to only eleven percent. So far in twenty four we're
46:12
Speaker 3: back to about fourteen percent, but we're not back to
46:15
Speaker 3: twenty four.
46:16
Speaker 2: So when we're not talking about returns, we're talking about.
46:20
Speaker 3: Exit activity as a percentage of the net asset value.
46:23
Speaker 2: So fourteen percent exit as opposed to almost a quarter
46:27
Speaker 2: a big difference.
46:28
Speaker 3: Yes, historical average of twenty four percent. The institutional investor
46:31
Speaker 3: does not like that math. They like to have their
46:34
Speaker 3: cash back come back to normal levels because that's the
46:37
Speaker 3: cash back that then recycle into new investment.
46:39
Speaker 2: They see other opportunities. So I asked you the negative question,
46:42
Speaker 2: what are the challenges? Let me flip it. What are
46:45
Speaker 2: the tailwinds? What are some of the positive things you
46:47
Speaker 2: see coming forward for the private markets.
46:51
Speaker 3: I think that as you see the increase in regulation
46:55
Speaker 3: around public market listings, more and more companies around the world, US,
47:00
Speaker 3: in Europe and beyond want to remain private because they
47:03
Speaker 3: see the benefits of being under private equity ownership, the
47:07
Speaker 3: value add the access to resources, the ability to have
47:10
Speaker 3: capital at hand, to grow faster is a very valuable playbook.
47:14
Speaker 3: So I expect that the private equity industry will continue
47:17
Speaker 3: to grow at the very rapid expansion rate that they've enjoyed.
47:22
Speaker 3: The other point I'll say is that this is a
47:24
Speaker 3: really interesting return driving environment for private equity. Valuations in
47:30
Speaker 3: the private markets remain very sensible, and there's a great
47:34
Speaker 3: arbitrage between US and Europe. The Europe divergence, as they're
47:38
Speaker 3: calling it these days, is real. So when it comes
47:41
Speaker 3: to saying, hey, I'm going to globalize my company's revenue chain,
47:46
Speaker 3: how do you do that? That's an interesting playbook, especially
47:49
Speaker 3: in the political environment we're in, and private equity is
47:52
Speaker 3: very well positioned to figure that out. The third thing
47:55
Speaker 3: we've already touched on, which is private wealth is a
47:58
Speaker 3: game change for private markets. Is a game change in
48:01
Speaker 3: terms of the capital inflows that's coming in, and we're
48:04
Speaker 3: still at the early innings of that. It would change
48:07
Speaker 3: private equity for good, and I think it's very exciting
48:10
Speaker 3: to see that gather pace and to be at the
48:13
Speaker 3: forefront of that at Raymond James, which is one of
48:16
Speaker 3: the largest wire platforms global private wealth platforms in the world.
48:19
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about your time at
48:21
Speaker 2: Raymond James. First, you stand up your own firm see bowl,
48:26
Speaker 2: and now you're at a fortune five hundred bank and
48:29
Speaker 2: advisory firm. That's got to be a culture shock. Tell
48:33
Speaker 2: us a little bit about what that transition was like.
48:35
Speaker 3: On paper, it is a culture shock, but during diligence,
48:39
Speaker 3: Raymond James approached me within within offer to acquire the business,
48:44
Speaker 3: and we spend months getting to know each other to
48:47
Speaker 3: ensure that the culture fit would work. Because if that
48:49
Speaker 3: didn't work, the key ASCID you were buying, which is
48:52
Speaker 3: talent and financial services, was going to walk. And so
48:56
Speaker 3: my boss, now who is the person who acquired Sabiel Jimbo,
49:00
Speaker 3: and I spent a lot of time getting to know
49:02
Speaker 3: each other and ensuring that him and I could work
49:05
Speaker 3: together well and effectively, and that the cultural alignment and
49:08
Speaker 3: entrepreneurial DNA would stay intact when they acquired the firm.
49:12
Speaker 3: Now I've been part of Raymond James three and a
49:14
Speaker 3: half years. I can safely say that the honeymoon's over,
49:18
Speaker 3: but also say that the culture fit has been a
49:21
Speaker 3: real hit. Raymond James has a very affable community oriented
49:27
Speaker 3: a very low ego type of culture as in general,
49:30
Speaker 3: and I've found the same thing in the capital markets
49:32
Speaker 3: business and it's been actually one of my upside surprises
49:36
Speaker 3: of joining Raymond James on the culture side. You wouldn't
49:38
Speaker 3: know it if you looked at the paper announcement that
49:40
Speaker 3: a Fortune three hundred was buying a small boutique and you.
49:43
Speaker 2: Go from small boutique to a trillion dollar platform. How
49:47
Speaker 2: has that changed how you operate, not just globally, but
49:51
Speaker 2: the sort of companies you advise, the sort of funds
49:54
Speaker 2: that you're working with. What has been the upside for
49:58
Speaker 2: you being on this billion plus dollar platform.
50:02
Speaker 3: There'd be two things that point to The first is,
50:04
Speaker 3: almost overnight, the largest private equity funds in the world
50:07
Speaker 3: started hiring us, same team, same people, same services. All
50:13
Speaker 3: that change was the logo of the boutique got replaced
50:15
Speaker 3: with the logo of a Fortune three.
50:17
Speaker 2: Hundred plus Fortune three hundred is a giant. You know
50:21
Speaker 2: that there's thousands and thousands of banks and funds, only
50:26
Speaker 2: a couple hundred companies attain that haft size. And no,
50:31
Speaker 2: it's not just the boutique, it's everything around it. You
50:34
Speaker 2: can tap into a giant network of experts.
50:37
Speaker 3: And one of my clients said, listen, no one gets
50:39
Speaker 3: fired for hiring a fortune three hundred. Now you are
50:41
Speaker 3: part of one, and it changed our game overnight. Overnight
50:45
Speaker 3: we started assigning ten twenty thirty billion dollar funds and
50:49
Speaker 3: that was incredibly exciting. So do what we love to do,
50:52
Speaker 3: but to do it for some of the biggest players
50:54
Speaker 3: in the markets is very exciting. The second one is
50:57
Speaker 3: that we were able to figure out and a veil
51:00
Speaker 3: of and offer the synergy with our private wealth partners
51:03
Speaker 3: at Raymond James very quickly, and for that, I'll always
51:07
Speaker 3: be thankful to the leadership of the firm because they
51:09
Speaker 3: saw the opportunity and they made that happen, and that's
51:13
Speaker 3: been a huge value add to our clients.
51:14
Speaker 2: I can I can imagine, all right, So I only
51:17
Speaker 2: have you for a handful of minutes left Before I
51:20
Speaker 2: get to my favorite questions that I ask all my guests,
51:24
Speaker 2: I have a couple of curve balls I have to
51:26
Speaker 2: throw you, starting with you're a certified somalier from the
51:31
Speaker 2: Court of Master Somaliers. Tell us a little bit about
51:35
Speaker 2: your enthusiasm for wine and what led you into that.
51:39
Speaker 3: So I started teaching a wine class at Stanford for
51:44
Speaker 3: one yearit of credit. In my junior year, I was
51:48
Speaker 3: part of living in the French House there where I
51:50
Speaker 3: was member of the staff, and I had to teach
51:51
Speaker 3: a class that had something to do with France. I said,
51:54
Speaker 3: France and wine.
51:55
Speaker 2: That makes sense even though you were less than an
51:58
Speaker 2: hour from Napa Valley.
51:59
Speaker 3: And guess who my teachers were. I would get guest
52:01
Speaker 3: speakers and wine makers from Napa and Sonoma to come
52:05
Speaker 3: and my pitch to them was, hey, you get to teach,
52:08
Speaker 3: You get to talk to and teach wine to an
52:10
Speaker 3: impressionable young audience that can go on and become loyal customers.
52:15
Speaker 3: That they loved it. They would come down and do
52:18
Speaker 3: a talk on wine, and we do a small wine tas, maybe.
52:20
Speaker 2: Bring some a couple of bottles shirted.
52:23
Speaker 3: It was voted Stanford's most popular class. It would often
52:27
Speaker 3: shut down the Stanford systems during sign up day, and
52:31
Speaker 3: even after I graduated from Stanford, I kept teaching that
52:34
Speaker 3: wine class for close to three years. After graduation. When
52:38
Speaker 3: I went to Harvard for my MBA Harvard College, one
52:41
Speaker 3: of the houses their residential houses there, asked me to
52:45
Speaker 3: come teach a wine seminar for them. Which I did,
52:47
Speaker 3: which was again a roaring success. And then I moved
52:50
Speaker 3: to London. And when I moved to London, I said, well,
52:52
Speaker 3: I'm not teaching anything here. I guess I'm going to
52:55
Speaker 3: lose all this wine knowledge. Let me put it to
52:58
Speaker 3: the test. And I decided to take the Court of
53:01
Speaker 3: Masters Sommelier's test. It was a three day test. I
53:05
Speaker 3: don't think I've crammed that hard for anything in my life.
53:08
Speaker 3: It was I had a blind tasting of ten wines.
53:11
Speaker 3: It had a service test, had theory papers. It was
53:14
Speaker 3: incredibly intense, but lo and behold, I ended up passing,
53:18
Speaker 3: and here we are. It's a lifetime qualification. I still
53:21
Speaker 3: have it with pride and honor, although I don't use
53:23
Speaker 3: it as much anymore now being a mom of three.
53:25
Speaker 2: So I was going to ask your London base. It's
53:28
Speaker 2: a short train ride to France, to Germany to Italy.
53:33
Speaker 2: There are some great wines in that area. How often
53:36
Speaker 2: do you get to go to local wineries and sample
53:41
Speaker 2: the wares.
53:41
Speaker 3: I love tasting wine, and so I have joined a
53:45
Speaker 3: wine club in London, which I love. I used to
53:49
Speaker 3: take part in blind wine tasting competitions less so now
53:53
Speaker 3: so any opportunity I can to enjoy and experiment and
53:57
Speaker 3: try new wines. I do so, you absolutely right. Europe
54:01
Speaker 3: is a bastion of wine making, and so if I
54:04
Speaker 3: go to board meetings in Germany, or if I head
54:06
Speaker 3: off for a weekend in Spain, it's all about diving
54:10
Speaker 3: deep into the local wine. I recently went for dinner
54:14
Speaker 3: with about ten twelve friends to a lovely restaurant in
54:19
Speaker 3: near Barcelona and Spain, and there was a wine tasting
54:22
Speaker 3: core of repairing there for all Spanish wines, and we
54:25
Speaker 3: did that together and learn more about Spanish wines than
54:27
Speaker 3: we ever thought we would know. That's the kind of
54:30
Speaker 3: thing that I do now as a passionate hobby.
54:32
Speaker 2: Huh. Really really interesting? All right, So all have you
54:35
Speaker 2: for a few more minutes. Let's jump to our favorite questions.
54:39
Speaker 2: Tell us what's keeping you entertained these days? What are
54:41
Speaker 2: you either watching or listening to? What are you streaming.
54:46
Speaker 3: Watching? I have to say I tend to watch in
54:50
Speaker 3: limited doses these days, given life and travel and children.
54:54
Speaker 3: But I love The Diplomat on Netflix. Fascinating again geopolitics.
55:00
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely interested in the new spy thriller that Paramount
55:04
Speaker 3: has out called The Agency. I've watched a couple of episodes.
55:07
Speaker 3: It's trending well so far. I love listening to a
55:12
Speaker 3: number of podcasts. My go to list will be Andrew
55:15
Speaker 3: Humeman Love. He's a Stanford professor wright the healthcare Yes,
55:21
Speaker 3: he loves that. He talks about health wellness protocols. Super fascinating.
55:25
Speaker 3: I try to dive into his stuff as much as
55:27
Speaker 3: I possibly can. They're long, though, so sometimes it takes
55:30
Speaker 3: a few iterations. I'll often listen to the news via podcasts,
55:35
Speaker 3: whether it's Bloomberg, CNBC. That's often part of my regular rota,
55:40
Speaker 3: and more than any of the others. I am a
55:44
Speaker 3: huge believer in preventative mental health. I meditate every day,
55:48
Speaker 3: go to an annual meditation course, so I'm often listening
55:51
Speaker 3: to talks around meditation, around mental health. How do you
55:55
Speaker 3: deepen your meditation practice. That's a huge part of my
55:59
Speaker 3: repository as well.
56:00
Speaker 2: And while we're on streaming entertainment, if you like the
56:05
Speaker 2: Diplomat and The Agency, let me suggest the Lioness oh
56:09
Speaker 2: on Parami about intelligence agencies and how they infiltrate terrorist groups.
56:15
Speaker 2: Really fascinating, very cool. I just finished the first season
56:18
Speaker 2: and I'm looking you need a break because it's like
56:21
Speaker 2: very tense and wow, we're about to start the second
56:25
Speaker 2: So tell us about your mentors who helped shape your career.
56:30
Speaker 3: I am lucky enough to have been picked up by
56:33
Speaker 3: a wonderful professor Stanford called Professor Tom Cosnick. Tom took
56:39
Speaker 3: me on at the tenor age of nineteen or twenty,
56:42
Speaker 3: and he took me under his wing, made me a
56:44
Speaker 3: research fellow. He's the one that enabled me to guest
56:48
Speaker 3: lecture at Stanford. I wrote case studies that are still
56:51
Speaker 3: used in the teaching curriculum there under him, and he's
56:54
Speaker 3: been a tremendous mentor and supporter very early on and forever.
56:59
Speaker 3: Thing to him for his coaching and mentorship over the years. Similarly,
57:05
Speaker 3: is a wonderful professor at Standford called Professor Tina Selig.
57:08
Speaker 3: She gave me one of the best piece of advice
57:11
Speaker 3: I think any young career professional, but certainly a woman,
57:14
Speaker 3: could have received. She said to me, you can have
57:17
Speaker 3: it all, just not at once. And that has stuck
57:20
Speaker 3: with me forever since. And it's been true in many
57:23
Speaker 3: walks of life, as I've had my children, as I've
57:25
Speaker 3: grown my businesses, as I do what I do on
57:27
Speaker 3: a daily basis. So those are the two that stand
57:30
Speaker 3: out both at Stanford. Both influential in the way they
57:33
Speaker 3: mentored me, but also what they imparted in me.
57:37
Speaker 2: Really interesting. Let's talk about books. What are some of
57:41
Speaker 2: your favorites and what are you reading right now?
57:44
Speaker 3: I love the book The Big Leap by Gray Hendrix.
57:48
Speaker 3: Everyone should pick it up. It's a quick read. It
57:51
Speaker 3: talks about upper limits, how we set upper limits unconsciously
57:57
Speaker 3: in our lives. He starts off with this great research
58:00
Speaker 3: about how most lottery winners after five years, most of
58:03
Speaker 3: them end up being broke, really unhappy.
58:06
Speaker 2: Broke, divorce, suicide. It's terrible.
58:08
Speaker 3: It's terrible. Why we've just been coming to all these riches.
58:12
Speaker 3: The mind has a reset point that brings you down
58:16
Speaker 3: into what you're used to feeling and the kind of
58:18
Speaker 3: mental space you're used to inhabiting. How do you break
58:21
Speaker 3: out of that and increase your upper limits so you
58:23
Speaker 3: can continue to scale in your life and in your career,
58:26
Speaker 3: in your personal life and so on. Fascinating quick read.
58:29
Speaker 3: Big Leap by Gay Hendrix Highly recommended. I'm reading a
58:34
Speaker 3: book right now. I'm only about thirty pages into it.
58:36
Speaker 3: Called the Mind Matters. Back to my thematic about mental
58:40
Speaker 3: and understanding how the mind works and mental health. Mind
58:44
Speaker 3: Matters is by a professor who talks about how the
58:48
Speaker 3: mind can often visualize things into reality. So you hear
58:51
Speaker 3: this phrase called manifestation a lot. This is a neuroscientist
58:55
Speaker 3: studying what that means in terms of how the brain
58:58
Speaker 3: fires to try to make things into reality for us.
59:01
Speaker 3: Fascinating thirty five pages or so. So far so early innings,
59:05
Speaker 3: but it's gone.
59:05
Speaker 2: Well, really interesting. And our final two questions, what sort
59:10
Speaker 2: of advice would you give to a recent college grad
59:13
Speaker 2: interested in a career in private markets or finance.
59:19
Speaker 3: My number one piece of advice to anybody entering finance
59:23
Speaker 3: is play the long game. Too many young people, I'm
59:28
Speaker 3: sure that you come across, Berry, that I come across,
59:30
Speaker 3: are all about the short term hits and the short
59:32
Speaker 3: term wins. If it doesn't work out, they move on
59:35
Speaker 3: and they try to make it work somewhere else, and
59:36
Speaker 3: they move on again. A rolling stone gathers no moss,
59:40
Speaker 3: and especially in finance, it's a world that ends up
59:43
Speaker 3: being one, maybe two degrees of separation. It's a world
59:48
Speaker 3: in which relationships still really, really matter, and you have
59:51
Speaker 3: to cultivate them. Thinking about a ten to twenty year
59:54
Speaker 3: career in mind, not what can this person do for
59:57
Speaker 3: me today, or this week, or this month or immediately.
1:00:00
Speaker 3: And that is I think one of the most profound
1:00:02
Speaker 3: pieces of advice I leaned into early in my career.
1:00:05
Speaker 3: Looking at every human being as a long term investment
1:00:08
Speaker 3: of time and energy, not looking for quick paybacks, same
1:00:12
Speaker 3: with investment investing in private equity, but certainly true when
1:00:15
Speaker 3: it comes to people.
1:00:17
Speaker 2: Really interesting and our final question, what do you know
1:00:20
Speaker 2: about the world of private equity today? You wish you
1:00:23
Speaker 2: knew twenty plus years ago when you were first starting out.
1:00:28
Speaker 3: What I know now that I wish I knew back
1:00:30
Speaker 3: then is that the market will change and adapt even
1:00:36
Speaker 3: faster and more furiously than you ever thought possible. Did
1:00:39
Speaker 3: we see the trillions of dollars in the private equity
1:00:42
Speaker 3: primary market?
1:00:43
Speaker 1: No?
1:00:44
Speaker 3: Did I see the secondary's market growing to one hundred
1:00:47
Speaker 3: and fifty billion on its way to a trillion dollars itself, No,
1:00:51
Speaker 3: So the growth will far outpace your wildest dreams, both
1:00:56
Speaker 3: in your own industry but also in the finance world
1:00:59
Speaker 3: around you. Think about twenty years ago, had you and
1:01:01
Speaker 3: I ever envisioned the mag seven and the trends we're
1:01:05
Speaker 3: seeing in technology and how markets would be at the
1:01:07
Speaker 3: levels they are today, not even in our wildest dreams.
1:01:11
Speaker 3: So as I think about the next twenty years, I
1:01:13
Speaker 3: keep that in.
1:01:13
Speaker 2: Mind really really interesting. Thank you, Sanana for being so
1:01:17
Speaker 2: generous with your time we have been speaking with. Sanna
1:01:21
Speaker 2: Sinhachi is the global head of the Private Capital Advisory
1:01:24
Speaker 2: Group for Raymond James. If you enjoy this conversation, well,
1:01:29
Speaker 2: be sure and check out any of the previous five
1:01:31
Speaker 2: hundred and forty we've done over the past ten and
1:01:34
Speaker 2: a half years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify,
1:01:39
Speaker 2: Bloomberg YouTube, wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And be
1:01:44
Speaker 2: sure and check out my new podcast At the Money,
1:01:47
Speaker 2: short ten minute conversations with experts about topics affecting your money,
1:01:53
Speaker 2: earning it, spending it, and most importantly, investing it At
1:01:56
Speaker 2: the Money, in the Masters in Business, feed or wherever
1:02:00
Speaker 2: you find your favorite podcasts. I would be remiss if
1:02:03
Speaker 2: I did not thank the Cracked team who helps us
1:02:05
Speaker 2: put these conversations together each week. John Wasserman is my
1:02:09
Speaker 2: audio engineer. Anna Luke is my producer. Sean Russo is
1:02:13
Speaker 2: my researcher. Sage Bauman is the head of podcasts here
1:02:16
Speaker 2: at Bloomberg. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to Masters
1:02:21
Speaker 2: in Business on Bloomberg Radio.