Latest / Badass Confidence Coach | Your Personal Trainer for Your Mind / 302. Why Smart Women Still Feel Like Frauds

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302. Why Smart Women Still Feel Like Frauds · Badass Confidence Coach | Your Personal Trainer for Your Mind

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Or welcome to.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: If you are a first-time listener or watcher, we're happy to have you here.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: So today, Tim and I, my husband here.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about something that is in the women's world.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: And men will be able to relate to this too.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: But this is something that does, I think, happen to women quite a bit more than men.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: I've worked with women on this issue for geez decades.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: And men don't seem to present, at least for coaching, around this issue.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's why it's the term we call imposter syndrome, but I'm turning it into another term, imposter phenomenon, because it's not really a syndrome.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, these are the women who are smart, they're accomplished, these are the high achievers, these are the people who are capable, people rely on them.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: They're the ones who like get stuff done, they get shit done at home and at work, right?
1:05
SPEAKER_01: But but somewhere inside of them is this running commentary that I don't really know what I'm doing.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't really people are gonna find me out, figure me out.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: And this is common.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: And it's really to me a form of like a form of suffering on the inside.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Because you present one way to the world, and the feedback you get is that people also treat me in kind, that you know, you are this person, you are that person at work, you're treated with the respect that you have earned, and at the same time, you don't seem to believe it for yourself, or that everybody can see its exposure, everybody can see the part of me that's really not confident.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And really, it's it's a form of major distress in women.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: And I like I said earlier, I don't want to call it imposter syndrome because it's more it's more of a phenomenon, it's not something that's in the DSM, it's not something, it's not a psychiatric issue.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, and what I find interesting about this whole impostor phenomenon is that women who are really successful, this doesn't go away.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: It actually just increases.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes success, you know, it it's it's increased, it becomes louder in a person's head.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: Maybe because they're more visible in their lives, they see there's more eyes on them, there's more responsibility, there's and there's more to lose for that, right?
2:30
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna talk about this.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: It's not that you need more confidence, it's something else.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: And so who let's can we further quantify the group that you're talking about highly.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, if you use the word highly, you said successful women.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: I mean, who's defining that?
2:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's objective for you.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I was gonna say, I mean, I don't, I mean, I think all women, at least in their own story, are successful in some fashion, right?
2:57
SPEAKER_02: There's different levels of success.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: I think all women think that way.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: That's what this episode is sort of about.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: I I don't I know that you said all women, so you're making a blanket statement there.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that a lot of women think that they have air quote gotten there.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: And when they do get there, we're gonna talk about it.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: They move the goalposts.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's see where it goes.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Because I I mean, I don't know.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: I I beg to differ.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: I think that like that inside of everybody's head, they feel there's some level of success in something.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that you know, if you're talking strictly just in the business world, okay, that's a different group of folks, right?
3:32
SPEAKER_01: But if you're talking about just in life, I think So I'm gonna welcome so I'm gonna bring you into the women's world and how we think.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, because you're a dude and you don't think the way I think the way a lot of women think.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: You just don't think these things.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: So you listen to me when I may talk to you about some of these issues, because this is this resonates for me, this issue.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to talk about it today, because I have dealt with it and my female clients have dealt with it and deal with it.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: And this might be something that doesn't resonate for you.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: You would never even think to do an episode on this by yourself because men don't deal with this issue, right?
4:06
SPEAKER_02: But men don't deal with it.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, they don't deal with it.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Not to the extent that we do.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, they don't deal with it internally, but they certainly deal with the outer effects of it, right?
4:15
SPEAKER_02: So I think that it applies literally to every human that hears this.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: So number one, my point is that competence and confidence are really not the same thing.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you can be extremely competent at something like your work and still feel just uncertain and unsure and and have insecurities about your work, right?
4:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, confidence is a feeling, competence is evidence.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's really important.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Confidence is a feeling, competence is evidence.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: The feelings don't add up when the evidence changes, right?
4:52
SPEAKER_01: So, or they we don't update our feelings, which is our we don't get more confident when the data changes.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: And this is, you know, what I coach women on.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, look at the way you're thinking about this, right?
5:03
SPEAKER_01: You could have 20 years of evidence behind you that you're good at what you do, and still walk into this new situation saying to yourself, oh geez, I I hope I can, I hope I can pull this off today.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, that doesn't necessarily mean that that person's unqualified, right?
5:21
SPEAKER_01: It means that you understand complexity, right?
5:25
SPEAKER_01: You understand that that there's a complex situation in front of you.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: So the more you know, the more you often understand how much more there is to know, which I kind of love in a way, right?
5:38
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, instead of you asking yourself, do I feel confident?
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Don't ask that question of yourself anymore, especially in a new situation.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Ask yourself instead, what does the evidence say about my competence?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: So those are very different questions.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: I always say to my clients, look for the evidence.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Look for the evidence, okay?
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: So for this episode, everybody, today, I'm going right.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: This is because this is could be a really long one, and I'm gonna try and keep it under an hour.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go right into my points.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: So throughout this episode, I'm gonna be giving you the power moves, okay, rather than saving them until the end because I've noticed we we've been gone 45 minutes to an hour, and I still have so much more to say.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say it to you throughout the episode.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: So that's your first one, your first power move.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Don't ask yourself, do I feel confident?
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Ask yourself instead, what does the evidence say about my competence?
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Confidence follows.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, change your behavior, we'll change your thinking and drag the feelings.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:36
SPEAKER_02: So just to be clear, so you're you're suggesting that this does happen and it shouldn't happen.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Let's pivot that.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: It does happen and let's ask ourselves some different questions.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Right?
6:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: I love the part about, and it's true, it's like, no, I mean, I'm not unqualified.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: This just is something that's new for me.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm learning something new.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm being stretched, maybe at work.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm being stretched to my knowledge.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm being stretched with maybe I am lacking a little bit of experience and expertise here.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert right now.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And I can learn and I can get this.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: I can get this information.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: And I can, you know, I can kind of like file it away inside myself.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: That's you increasing your competence.
7:19
unknown: Sure.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Put your confidence aside for a little bit or say, no, I'm confident that I can learn this.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: And I would much rather, just thinking of a person that manages other people, like I would rather the person go that route and try and learn and be open to learning and trying to get better and owning that they're not quite there yet, all of those things, right?
7:41
SPEAKER_02: Versus the person that completely tries to fake it, because there's a person that does that, right?
7:48
SPEAKER_02: And they and they try and skate through.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: And don't you think everybody can kind of tell in a way?
7:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, you can kind of can other people tell?
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that other people can see that?
8:01
SPEAKER_02: I think you trick yourself into thinking that they don't, right?
8:04
SPEAKER_02: I think you try and tell yourself that nobody could see this, right?
8:06
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe deep down you do know.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: Maybe deep down you don't know, right?
8:10
SPEAKER_02: That other people know.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: It's weird.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of weird.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: It's this game, and you sit back and you watch from the sidelines and you're like, what's going on here?
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: It's weird.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: My next point is that high achievers, and so many people, and I say high achievers, and I really mean sort of kind of all of you.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, when I started the badass confidence coach, I've told the story many times, it bears repeating.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: The badass wasn't me.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: The badass was my clients.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So I was, you know, helping coach people up in their confidence.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: That's just one piece of what I do as a coach.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: There's so many different things that I do as a coach.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: I coach people on relationships, on self-esteem, you name it, the mindset.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I there's a lot, a lot, a lot of different parts of people's lives that I coach them on.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Confidence is just one part.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: But when I was in my office before COVID, seeing all of my clients, I would say to myself, I'm listening to this person's story.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm listening to their narrative, I'm listening to what they have gone through in their life.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And for many of them, what they have already overcome, they come to me, they still have issues they want to work on.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm listening to them, going, You're this is you're a badass.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, look at what you've been through.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And I started saying that to people, like, you're such a badass.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, What?
9:27
SPEAKER_01: What are you, what are you, what are you talking about?
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And they're like looking behind them like there's someone sitting behind them.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, you're talking to right now.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm looking at you.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking to you.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: You're a badass.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, what?
9:37
SPEAKER_01: No, no, I'm no, I'm not.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: What?
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're a badass.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you I just listen to you talk to me about the life you've had, the home you grew up in, the mother that you had, the father that you had, these mess up dynamics, that work situation that you were able to make yourself through, how hard you worked in school, and maybe you had some some disabilities, issues, you had to work harder than everybody else.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: And look at where you are, look at what you've done.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: That is badass.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: And like, oh, I never thought of it like that.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's badass.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: You're a badass.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's where it came from.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: So, and those badass people, that is almost all of you, are also high achievers.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: You're if you're achieving something, you're a high achiever.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Just gonna say it.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: All right.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: So, this is the biggest one that I see is that high achievers, people who are badass, that move the finish line, that move the goalposts.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's so unfair of you to do that to yourself, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, something that was once just a huge accomplishment.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: You set a goal for yourself.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: You had like that big goal you set maybe in like 2024, 2025, and you reached it, or you got most of the way there, and maybe you finished it off the next year.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: You're like, wow, I did it.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: That's a huge accomplishment.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: When we get there, we maybe like think about it for like five minutes and we're like, yeah, it was good.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I did it.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And then that becomes normal to us or to you, and you move on.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's that degree that you worked your butt off for.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's the promotion, the business, the race that you ran.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, many of us understand this who've trained and for months and months and months for a marathon, and then you're there on marathon day, you run that race, and then as soon as that race is over, it's like, well, okay, well, what's next?
11:23
SPEAKER_01: We move the goalposts.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: We talk about like the letdown, we talk about our with our athletes about like, you know, you're going to feel, don't be surprised if you feel a little down or feel a little bit depressed after the marathon because you just spent six months training for it.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, okay, you know, maybe you ran this amazing time that you wanted to set for yourself and you did it.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, okay, well, what's next?
11:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like spend some time reveling in what you just did, right?
11:50
SPEAKER_01: So we, you know, we start to normalize wins, is really what we're doing.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: The brain can create inside of us this, you know, unfair accounting system.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: We do that to ourselves.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: We have this accounting system that's a little bit corrupt, I say.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: You say you're counting to my clients, your accounting system is corrupt.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Your accounting system is corrupt because you're not thinking about this, right?
12:12
SPEAKER_01: You need to fix that corrupt system inside your brain because you're ripping on yourself for what you haven't done yet.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: But look at all that's behind you that you've set out to accomplish and you've done it and you've been successful.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: You spent no time really looking at it.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, take take that, like the take that shiny ball, look at it, spend some time, like feel it in your hands, move it around, look at the different facets of it.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: You did all that.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Anna, okay.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Let's sit here right now and be in this moment and just be with what it is you have already done, rather than moving the goalposts.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a tough ask.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I you have to consider the world we live in.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: I know.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: It's such a instant microwave, fill in the blank, whatever you want to call it.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: Like that that's how it goes.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: We normalize wins, but we don't normalize the mistakes, right?
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's like I said before, like the brain brain has created this completely unfair accounting system.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Your brain has done that to you.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, success gets discounted.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, mistakes, your mistakes get magnified.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: You, you know, you focus, you put the magnifying glass on.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I screwed up there.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: But it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a thought distortion, is what it is.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: It's a thought distortion, it's filtering, where is that's the term where you let's say you have a colander, let's, you know, you're you're making pasta and you put the pasta in the colander of the boiling water, and all the hot water filters out, goes out through the colander down the drain, and then the you know the pasta's in the filter in the colander.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's filtering.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: You like all of your positives, all the things you've done, all the things you've accomplished went out with the water down the drain.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: And you're staring at the pasta, which is like maybe mistakes or your what you consider air quote your failings.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: That's what's still in there.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: You're staring at it.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, and everything else just gone.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: And I talk about this all the time.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: It's filtering.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: It's not fair for you to do this to yourself.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's you're mean to yourself, right?
14:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, you you get praise, and then you know, we'll talk about remember when your you told me your boss or your you know the CEO, the you know, the C-suite made this comment to you.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: You're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And and I my clients disqualify to me.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: They disqualify to me what was said to them.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, mm-hmm, yeah, whatever.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, let's get back to what I've done wrong.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: Let's get like, no, no, no.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: We need to let's get let's get back to like how I can improve.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, we need to totally just completely stop.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: We need to take a minute and we need to do some mindset work, right?
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Because you had you keep moving the goalposts and the stress in these individuals is through the roof.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Because you're you're you have this critical mind.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: The critical mind is like, well, here's the evidence, Anna.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: Because the critical mind is always at work, right?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: This is unfair for us to do this.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: And I know people like you, Tim, are gonna be listening or watching this, giving me pushback.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: You're giving me pushback in your minds.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: I know you are, I know you are.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, this is a work that we I just think it's the reality of it is okay, so you have a goal out there, and you do a lot of work and you do a lot of great things along the way, a lot of tough things along the way to get there, right?
15:31
SPEAKER_02: And you're gonna get there eventually, and then there's gonna be another thing to do after that's just reality, right?
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Right, you you know, I bought this house.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, wonderful.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: You saved and saved and saved.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Now you bought this house.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Now what?
15:44
SPEAKER_02: Now I gotta go save and save and save because now I need furniture.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: Now I need that, right?
15:47
SPEAKER_02: There's like there's there's another thing out that you're chasing, right?
15:51
SPEAKER_02: I think what you're suggesting is developing the skills to be able to put yourself on pause for a second, right?
15:58
SPEAKER_02: To just to just kind of like stop the spinning wheel just for a second, just to celebrate and look back for just a second on all the things that you did.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: Celebrate the success right now because the goalposts are gonna move.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: You're not you're not able to stop the goalposts.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Sit and be in the moment.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: You are competent, you got it done.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just look at the goalposts.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: You you scored that touchdown, or whatever it is you want to think of in your life.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: You you scored that touchdown, you scored many.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Sit and revel in your competence and let the confidence come.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: That's where confidence comes.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: That's you know, that's that's why criticism comes into our minds, it takes away our confidence.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: You have to work on the critical mind.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: That's that's a oh, we don't have time in this episode to get into.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the work I do with my coaching clients.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: This is the deep dive.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to work with me, you all know where to find me.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's hello at anamarcaline.com.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: Go to my website, you can reach out to me, you can send me an email.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: You can, I think my phone number's even on it.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: You can text me, you know, if you want to set up a discovery call.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Let's work together.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: This is the work that I do.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, we don't have time to get into the the weeds of our critical minds.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And and this is something that so many of us struggle with is you always sort of ripping on ourselves, critiquing ourselves, criticizing ourselves versus sitting in confidence.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you, when you do it and you start to work on your mind, things change.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And what happens also is things change at work and things change in your personal life.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Can I offer a different analogy?
17:36
SPEAKER_02: I think because I think a lot of us are there's a lot of football fans that listen to this, right?
17:40
SPEAKER_02: Are there?
17:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, there's gonna there's at least two of them that I'm talking, I'm talking to right now.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: But so I think that the con there's a negative connotation with moving the goalpost, right?
17:50
SPEAKER_02: Because like then the that connotation is like we're all trying to shoot and score into this particular, well, in this case, it'd be through the goalpost, right?
17:59
SPEAKER_02: But then there's some dude back there that constantly is moving them side to side.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: You're never quite there, right?
18:04
SPEAKER_02: So you never feel success, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Because you feel that those things are shifting.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: That's the connotation of moving the goalpost.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: I think a better way to say it, or the better way to think about it, is like there's a first and ten.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: There's first down, you have to go 10 yards, right?
18:18
SPEAKER_02: So you work and work and work and work and work.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: You get there, you got that first down pause, right?
18:24
SPEAKER_02: Because there's another 10 now to get right right.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: But so it's not like we're shifting the goalposts and making it challenging for people.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: It's like get to the first down, that's the goal, or whatever you want to call it, right?
18:34
SPEAKER_02: Right, and now there's another goal.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: Now it's 10 yards more.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: Now, what are you gonna do?
18:38
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna look back, how did it go?
18:40
SPEAKER_02: Right now, I'm gonna we're gonna attack it again.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: We're moving to the next goal.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: Then there's gonna be another one.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be an it's we're never quite really there, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Like we're always gonna be chasing something.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that yeah, but then when yes, and when you score a touchdown, you celebrate that.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You celebrate, you score.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: You celebrate every first down.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm suggesting you take even smaller steps, like like yeah, along the way.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I think it's and I understand that this is hard.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can I have done this myself so many years.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: I have done this, and I've had, you know, been coached up.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: I've had my business coaches tell me to stop.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: For me, it was always I need more knowledge, I need more knowledge, I need to read more, I need to be more of an expert, more of an expert.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, what does it mean?
19:28
SPEAKER_01: What even does that mean?
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, because I would get into this sort of compare and despair.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: I would, I'd see people in social media and like, you know, maybe think, oh, people that I respected, that I look up to, and more in the field of it's like coaching psychology that I thought that I thought and think are articulate and and just well spoken, and they can convey you know theory well and put it into practical steps for people.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: And I and I love that.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: And I there's certain individuals that I really look up to, and I think, oh, I need to be more like that.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And and where did they, you know, what's the accreditation that they have?
20:02
SPEAKER_01: And then my business coaches have had more than one say this to me like, stop.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: You don't need any more knowledge.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: What you you in some ways you have more information and more knowledge than they do.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've been doing this for 30 years.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Stop.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Because it was triggering, and what's that about was triggering something inside of me that felt insecure because I was doing the compare and despair.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: That's a thought distortion.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: That's this is cognitive therapy.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, cognitive coaching, if you want to call it.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: So I stopped doing it and I had to work hard to stop doing that and to stay in my lane, focus on me, and stop and put, like I always say, you all know this.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: If you've listened to me for any amount of time, like you know, thoroughbred horse racing, put the blinkers on, put the blinkers on.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So you have to look straight.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: You're not looking to the right, you're not looking to the left, you're not looking at the horses to your right or left, you're not looking at the people in the sands, you're not looking at the the wave whipping in the wind over there or freaks horses out.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're looking think about that for yourself as a human in your life.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: You're not looking over there and looking at her and looking at him and what they're doing, put your blinkers on, get your nose the grindstone, do good work.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And I went back to what a supervisor said to me probably 35 years ago.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Anna, at the end of the day, just do good work, be ethical, be a stand-up therapist, be a stand-up coach, and do good work.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and all that that encompasses, right?
21:29
SPEAKER_01: Have a conscience about what it is that you're doing.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And and I think I know that that that's what I do.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think about my clients, I give them my best, and that's all I can do.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Do I have all the answers for everybody?
21:41
SPEAKER_01: No, no, and it's not that's not the point, is to have all the answers for everybody.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: The point is to, you know, to show up, to be pay attention, to be available, ask the right questions, to totally think about my clients in their lives, yeah, in a way that they can't do.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and and Bring all of my training and years of training in.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And so, but at the same time, I've had to work hard at that because I kept moving the goalposts and comparing myself to others.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, I need that.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And Anna, look at what you just did.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Look at like you've moved up in the speaking space, speaking world.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: You've moved, you know, look at your clientele.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Look at all, you know, you have this group coaching, look at all the things you have done, look at the podcast.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: You've worked hard at the podcast, the podcast is successful.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but the but now it needs to be, and you know, I'll say it to you.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Now it needs to be this, now it needs to be that.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: It just keeps going up, and that can be exhausting.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is exhausting.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's what high achievers do.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think in that, the way you said it there, like I think that there is a world where moving the goalposts is necessary, right?
22:47
SPEAKER_01: At some point, like you will You see me do it, Tim, and you see how critical I can be of myself.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: You you know this, you live with me.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: I am, I'm, I am the client that I'm speaking to in this episode.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And I am like so many of my clients that I've worked with.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's why this is an important one for me because I know people come to me to do work on this, and I'm right there with them.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm a little further along because I've really worked on this for a long time.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm human.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that I still don't get you know, like I don't really spend a lot of time looking at downloads to the podcast or looking at how many people listened.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: That's not good for me.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: And I would say anybody who's a podcaster, I would do I wouldn't be doing that all the time because the numbers are going to fluctuate.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: You're going to have weeks where the numbers are really low.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't look at, you know, if you're a speaker, a motivational speaker, a mental health speaker, you're you're a coach and you like to be on stages.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't compare myself to Joe or Susie next to you who has 20 gigs in 2027 already set up.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't do that.
23:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's what people do.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: They compare and despair and they move the goalposts.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, but look at what you just did already in 2026, and this year isn't even over.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but but but I need to be, but I I I want next year to and I don't have it already set up.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: There's not in my bookshed.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't have contract signed for 2027 for you know, speaking, I thought I'd be, I thought I'd have 15.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: I only have seven.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, this is what happens.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: This is what we do.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: We go on and on and on with the glass half empty.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: I think the advice that I'm hearing from that is like like be mindful of the outside influences which really don't or shouldn't affect you anyway.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: And they do.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: They do, but but you need to push back on that.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: And so my next it goes into my next point about perfectionism because many, many people, you know, you all know there's no such thing as being perfect and and work on your perfectionism.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: If you've listened to me for any amount of time, that's on repeat.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And we still struggle with perfectionism.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And we it it makes normal uncertainty in our lives feel like fraud.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's important.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say that again.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Perfectionism in us makes normal uncertainty in this life that we're living feel fraudulent.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a lot of high-achieving women that I've worked with, they have this rule running, running underneath or inside of them.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: It really sort of like runs like in the background, the background noise with everything.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: If I'm really good at this, I should know what I'm doing.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: If I'm really good at this, like I say I am, and I think I am, then I should know what I'm doing and I should know what I'm doing more than I do right now.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: No, no.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: Experts get confused.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: This is important.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Expert, the air quote experts, they get confused.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Experts, the experts of whatever field you want to think about or you want to look at, your field that you're in, they ask for help.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: We forget that.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Experts ask for help.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: We forget that experts also can change their minds, and they do change their minds.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: Experts encounter situations that they've never dealt with before.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: I encounter situations I've never dealt with before.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm an expert in certain things in mental health and wellness.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And I, geez, I mean, monthly I encounter things that I have never dealt with before.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: And I have to go and I have to seek consultation, I have to do my research, and I have to figure it out.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: I just got presented with something last week that I know very little about in my field.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And this is a this is a therapy client.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: I know very little about.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Do you think I and I said to them, like, I don't know a lot about this.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: This, this is not my this is not a specialty of mine.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I know some some things about it.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I from school, but that was school was a long, long time ago.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm old.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I I usually refer this out.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: That's not the main reason why this client's been with me for a while.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: It's not the main reason why we're working together, but it's something that's coming up.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: So I need to do my due diligence and and work on this for that person.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Seek consultation.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert at that.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: So I have to seek outside help to be able to help my client.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly so.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: I think that's important that we remember that experts are not perfect.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Experts, you know, can can get it wrong too.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: We get confused.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: We can get it wrong.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: You do your due diligence and do the ethical thing and go ask for help, right?
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And those who are really good at being an expert, they do do that, right?
27:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, but perfectionism interprets effort as evidence of inadequacy, right?
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to make an effort at this.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: It means like I'm inadequate, I'm not really an expert.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, why is this so hard for me?
27:28
SPEAKER_01: Because it's hard.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Because it's hard.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, and sometimes I've asked myself that too.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Why is it so hard for me?
27:35
SPEAKER_01: And I've had, you know, some very blood coaches say to me, look, I'm saying to all of you, because Anna, it's hard.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Because it is.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't get some things don't get easier.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: You just get comfortable being uncomfortable.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: And I've been preaching that from day one, right?
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Not because, and not because you're a fraud, you're not a fraud.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the problem is not that you're underqualified, quite the opposite.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: It's that your standard for feeling qualified is impossible because you have this perfectionism set up and you have set an impossible standard for yourself.
28:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Come on in, be a human.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the human race.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: You're not perfect.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: And maybe you need to stop setting up these impossible standards for yourself.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: That might be a hard one for people to swallow, and it's an important one for you to take in and listen to.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: And I think in that scenario, now you can definitely use the goalposts analogy because you're not moving the goalposts, right?
28:35
SPEAKER_02: Life is moving it, right?
28:37
SPEAKER_02: The curveballs that come in after you.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Now that is a perfect analogy of when the goalposts are getting shifted.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: Not by your choice, right?
28:47
SPEAKER_02: You're not saying I'm shifting the goalposts for me.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: I see where the goal is.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: I see where that my not goal goal is and goalposts, but like my goal for this whatever situation is that doesn't change.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Even with these outside influences, it might make it more challenging.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: It might take longer to get there, but you're not going to allow the goalposts, which represents the goal for you, to shift at all.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: They stay there.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: Right?
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like you're rigid, you become rigid.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you won't let, yeah, exactly.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: You push back.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: So the next point I want to make is that your identity and how you view yourself might be lagging behind your life as your life is going on.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: So this is one of the least discussed parts of imposter phenomenon that we're going to talk about today.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes your external life, everything that's happening in your environment and your personal life, changes faster than your internal identity.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: So listen to this.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: So you become the boss now, right?
29:47
SPEAKER_01: But internally, you still feel like the junior associate.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: I get this all the time from people.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: You you have become the expert.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: You have your PhD and whatever.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: You've got your doctoral degree and whatever it is, but part of you still identifies as the student.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: You have become successful.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Let's say you've become financially successful, but you still think, who, who am I to be doing this?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Who am I to be doing this?
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: And I see this in in motherhood when women become new mothers.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, a woman can feel incredibly competent professionally and being have have been and is killing it professionally.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: She knows how to plan, she knows how to execute, you know, she knows how to control the variables, solve problems, and then she has kids.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: All bets are off.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Children, kids, babies can can and they will if if we let this happen, well, they just do.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: They're just little human beings that come in and they need us, and they can absolutely destroy the fantasy that effort equals outcome.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: They destroy that fantasy.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: So you're suggesting that you little kids can move the goalposts.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: That's your suggestion.
31:09
unknown: Yeah.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: In a way, right?
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can do everything error quote right, right?
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And a baby can still wake you up in the middle of the night screaming and you're sleep deprived because it's a baby.
31:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's what babies do.
31:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: Right?
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And you can do everything right.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And your first grader is still struggling in school.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: You're like, what?
31:33
SPEAKER_01: You can read every parenting book and have no idea what the hell to do.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Nobody talked about this.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: There's no chapter on this.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Nobody spoke about this.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And high-achieving women, especially, often interpret that uncertainty as I'm failing.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm failing as a mom.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't got this.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, instead of you know, saying to ourselves, or instead of you saying to yourself, parenthood is inherently uncertain.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Everything about this is uncertain, right?
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Your child's distress is not always evidence of our failures or of your failure as a mom.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Moms really, really can get wrapped up in this.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: We can get all up in our heads about this.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: That I'm failing as a mom, you know, whatever it might be.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, maybe they're just they don't understand the rules of the game.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: They're not that good at soccer.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, they are a bully at school.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: They're the brat.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: They're the bully.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, what is going on?
32:28
SPEAKER_01: That I am flipping out at night at dinner.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm losing my patience with them and I'm doing it all the time.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: If like I'm a grumpy like bitch, you know, because I'm losing control and it's affecting the whole house.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: The dynamics and the house are changing and I kind of know it, kind of see it.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: The kids are fighting, they're hitting each other, they're showing disrespect to their dad or to me, and I'm just like a mess.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Because why is that?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, because I can control everything at work.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: I can't control this house, I can't control myself, I can't control the kids.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And this is a hard one, and one that's really, really common.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, so I think maybe you're onto something here because I think that using motherhood as an analogy for the bigger picture of struggling with success and celebration and all the things.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: I think I think you could actually, if you workshop that a little bit, you could really come up with something here.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I really do, because I think there's a there's a lot of women out there that can relate to your story.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: It's a common, common discussion with client clients.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it this is.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is it happens.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say all the time because that's not it's it happens quite a bit.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretty frequent.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: This is hard.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: You have your you're a teacher, you can have your classroom all organized and have all your quote ducks in a row.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can have everything, your pencils all lined up, you can be completely prepared for that, or you're in the in the C-suite, or you are an attorney, you're you know, partner in a law firm, or you're an associate making your way up, or you are in sales and you are like just climbing the ladder, killing it.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: You're you are great at your pitches.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can have all you do your work and you get the results, and you actually do get feedback of that.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Was awesome.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Like you did a great job, you know, like good job on that, you know, or the parents love you because you're whatever it is, whatever field you're in.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: And then you have a baby, and it's like from day one, you know, you maybe get a day or two because you're still zonked out out of it and they sleep, and all of a sudden, day three, postpartum, you know, you bring this baby home and they're like screaming, and you're like, what, what, what, what?
34:36
SPEAKER_01: I changed your diaper, right?
34:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, I fed them.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Why are they crying?
34:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's going on.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: You, you know, it's so freaking hard.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, you get through that, you finally get them to sleep, you do the sleep training, and you you do that, and you get the nursing down, the breastfeeding, which is a whole thing onto itself.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: People don't talk enough about how hard breastfeed.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: It's like the fourth trim, fourth mester, the quadmester.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: We talk about, I think Kristen Mys, when I had her on a couple weeks ago to talk about the Lindsay Clancy trial and post-partum psychosis, we talked about like trimesters, the first, second, third trimester.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: No one talks about the fourth mester, which is the postnatal phase of having a newborn at home, how difficult it is.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and then you finally get that down and you get sleep training and you get breastfeeding down, and then you got something else that's going on.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: You're looking at their developmental milestones and then fast forward a few years, you get them in the their kindergarten, their grade school years.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just a whole thing.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's wonderful and it's fun, and it's it's amazing.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: It's also really, really hard.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: And if we you are somebody who tends to be perfectionistic at work or in other, or you're controlling, if you're you tend to be somebody who likes control over your life and you're a controlling person, yeah, which a lot of us are.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: I know that I have a little bit of that in me.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: This it's hard to surrender to parenthood.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: It's hard, hard, hard to do it.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I could do a whole thing on that.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, I could do an episode on it.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: I could, I, I coach on this all the time.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and let's not forget, let's not forget our niece, who right?
36:06
SPEAKER_02: She successful businesswoman, had a baby, went back to work, successful businesswoman, now pregnant again.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Let's not forget that we have somebody in our circle that we could talk to that could bring some serious clarity to this, right?
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that we I was gonna say, which niece we have so many.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: Shout out to her right now.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, right.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: But right, right.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: But I think that that would be a tremendous conversation and probably some really great.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because she's a pretty chill, really laid back type B personality.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: She's very, she's likes her, she's very organized, she's a very organized individual.
36:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: And she's the type of person who you like, you don't really see her sweat.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: She doesn't show a lot on the outside, and I know her, and I know on the inside, like it's been hard.
36:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: And she's doing a really fantastic job of it, and it's been hard.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: It's been hard.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: And I'd I'd like to hear the comparisons from her point of view in in terms of like, okay, I have my hat work on now or my my work hat on now, and now I have my mom hat on.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, and like how did that go?
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, yeah, we we we gotta move on, but I do think that it's important for you all to note in yourself that your child's distress, whether it be day three or they're coming home from the hospital, day three of life, or they're in their junior year of high school, their distress is not an evidence of your failure as a mom.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Their choices are not a rapport card on you.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: The choices they make are not a rapport card on you.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you don't feel like an expert because there's no way to become completely expert at another human being.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: We are not experts on each other.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And some of you may beg to differ on that with your kids.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm here to tell you, I'm sorry, you're not an expert on your child.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Your child is becoming an expert on themselves.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not an expert on my kids.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: I go to them and listen to them, and I hear what it is that's going on for them in their lives, but I'm not an expert on them.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: They are.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: I think you're just you're trying to be, you know, you know, I don't know if you're ever gonna really be an expert, but I think you want to be really good at parenting, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the best parent you can be.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Will you be an expert at that?
38:17
SPEAKER_01: Ah, I think this is the time when if you're going through this, this is the time to reach out for professional help if you need it.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: If this is something that you really struggle with, there's perfectionism and parenting, I would get a therapist or I would get coached up on this.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Therapist, if it's deeper, therapist, I think if it's moving into more mental health, or I'm feeling very anxious and I'm actually having, I'm feeling depressed about this.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: The therapist would be really appropriate.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: If you're somebody who's like, I don't really feel like anxious, like I'm like, you know, worried all the time or nervous all the time, or I don't know, I wouldn't say I'm depressed about it.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: I just have like kind of the normal, generalized general anxiety about it.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And I need feedback, another, I need another opinion to help me see that what I'm doing is actually really, really okay.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really in the on the right path, and I'm a good mom and I'm a good worker, and I got this.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And I need somebody to help me set goals and things to work for, you know.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And so coaching comes in and they set the goalpost maybe for you, but we don't move the goalpost.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: We don't move that goalpost.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: But we we can coach you up on on motherhood, mommying, and parenthood.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people need help with it.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it's a wonderful time if you've never been in therapy, you've never been coached to get into it because it can be so helpful.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so helpful to have another person in your life who's like, No, you got this, you're good, you're good, you got this.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we need that.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: That's like that great coaching up, right?
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, all right.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Next, what I see with high achieving women.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Some women are using self-doubt as a performance strategy.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: So this one's really important.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: So self-doubt can actually work.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Surprise, surprise, you hear me say that.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: And there are times when self-doubt can actually work for people.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: What if I'm not good enough?
40:02
SPEAKER_01: What if I'm not good enough?
40:04
SPEAKER_01: It can help you prepare more.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's not always a bad thing.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: What if I what if I screw this up?
40:10
SPEAKER_01: It can make you double check on your work, right?
40:14
SPEAKER_01: What if they figure me out?
40:15
SPEAKER_01: What if they're gonna figure me out?
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's gonna make you work harder.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: We don't want this to go on in perpetuity, but okay, it can make you work a little bit harder.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: And because the anxiety produces results, your brain starts believing when you do all this, anxiety is what keeps me successful.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: It's that anxiety, it's a fire under my butt 24-7.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: That's what keeps me successful.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Then confidence feels dangerous.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: So if I stop worrying, maybe I'm gonna become lazy, right?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: If I stop questioning myself, maybe I'm gonna miss something and I can't have that.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: So the goal isn't simply, you know, stop doubting yourself.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: The goal is to stop using your fear as your only engine.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: So you can prepare.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I want you to prepare, but I want you to do it because you care.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: You can work hard because you care about excellence.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: And yes, excellence matters.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so work hard.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to threaten yourself into performing.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you don't have to threaten yourself by by the glass half empty, the critical mind ripping on yourself, having yourself like you know, so worried you're in a you've worked yourself up into a lather.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, we don't want that.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Don't threaten yourself into performing, but it's okay that we want you to prepare, right?
41:33
SPEAKER_01: I I want you to work hard because excellence does matter.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: But there's no perfection here, and stop ripping on yourself.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: We'll stay in the context of of the business worlds.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: Is that your that was your example?
41:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, I you're never going to have it down, right?
41:48
SPEAKER_02: It's never going to be perfect.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people don't want to hear that.
41:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, but a lot of times I think what we have to tell remind ourselves is like a lot of this stuff, nobody knows that, right?
41:58
SPEAKER_02: You do a presentation and you miss something, only you know that you miss something, most likely.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: Most times, yes.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: Most likely, yes, yes, right.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: Or you missed, you just miss something, and it's like, oh goodness, like like you have a chance to kind of maybe fix it, or maybe it just doesn't get fixed because it doesn't need to get fixed, it just was a miss, right?
42:16
SPEAKER_02: Right?
42:17
SPEAKER_02: You have to so it's not like black and white all the time.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's a little bit of gray, and sometimes the gray's okay.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: And I know that that could be a hard pill for some people to swallow, especially when we like control.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: And don't we all like control?
42:29
SPEAKER_01: But you remember that to your point, what you said, Tim is really true.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: It's not always black or white that it's okay to have a little bit of gray in there.
42:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: I always say this to clients.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't think people are spending that much time thinking about you.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: They're not, they're people.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: We are we are egotistical.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: We are so we think about ourselves.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: We are thinking about ourselves.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Your colleagues and co-workers are thinking about themselves and their performance and how they're showing up and the what the boss thinks of them.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: They're not thinking that or what whatever they got going on at work, and they're thinking about their fight they got into with their spouse that morning and their kid, you know, at school.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: They're not thinking that much about you.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And that does help.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: I said this to a client, I said, you know, I said this to her a few months ago and she just brought it up recently.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: I said something about like, it's it's not all about they're not thinking about you, like they're not thinking about you that much, or something like, you know, you're not that important to them.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: And we kind of chuckled.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: I kind of said it in jest, but we kind of chuckled.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: But I said, no, but it's really true.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Anna, that works all the time for me.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: She's like, whenever I get freaked out with these big bosses in the sweet C suite, she goes, I always think to myself, it doesn't matter that much.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: They don't care that much about me.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm not that important, you know.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're not that great.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Put yourself like she's like, I kind of put myself down.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're chuckling, but in a positive, in a positive way, she's a good, it really helps me.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really helps me like depersonalize.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: This is not all about me.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: She's like, and it has helped.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: It has helped.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's helped to become more confident.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because she realizes that all these people, the higher ups, they don't care that much.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Much about the little detail of something she forgot in her last you know, the whatever it is that she was sitting in, the big meeting she was at.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: She knows in her mind all the things she wanted to say, and she forgot to mention this one thing that she thought was important.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: It just went over their heads.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's the best advice you've given all day so far.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really matter.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: Like, like you're even it's it doesn't even have to be the higher ups, it's your co-workers.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: You forget this or that in the moment for maybe a 30 seconds.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's polished, she's professional, she shows up, she does her work.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a hard worker.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, too, what do I think people, and maybe I'm gonna tell her this because Mark, she's listening.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: This is you may know who you are.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if she listens to podcasts.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tell her this.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, what matters is how you show up and how you treat people.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think it truly is a lot more about personality.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: What do people remember?
44:59
SPEAKER_01: What do they say at funerals?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: And when we go to wakes and shivas, what do people remember?
45:04
SPEAKER_01: We remember how they treated us.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: We remember that people don't remember the house you lived in, people don't remember the car you drove, people don't remember like the vacations of your second home.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: No one cares.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: People might remember that, yeah, they used to volunteer at the soup kitchen once a week.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: I remember how he came over when I got locked out of my house and helps me get in my house, you know.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: Or I remember how he stopped and, you know, when he knew my mom was sick and said, Hey, how you doing?
45:30
SPEAKER_01: How you holding up?
45:31
SPEAKER_01: That's what people remember.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: People will remember that she's a kind, friendly, outgoing person who's a professional, who's polished, she's a hard freaking worker.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: That's what they will remember.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Not that detail of the one part of this presentation she had to give that she forgot.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: So that's important.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Really, really important.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: I think it's the best advice.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: So in starting to close this episode up, what is what does confidence actually look like?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think that confidence means I never doubt myself.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Confidence, I think, really is I can doubt myself and still trust myself.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly what will happen, but I trust myself to handle it.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: I can handle the situation.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: I might make a mistake.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: I might not remember to say this or that.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: I might make it, or I might make just a mistake.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: I may screw something something up.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: But I trust myself to repair it.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna make a repair.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I have to repair something, maybe I have to repair a relationship.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: I trust myself that I will do that.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: I trust myself to say I'm sorry if I need to say I'm sorry.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Somebody may not like me.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Somebody just might not like me because of the color of my hair or the color of my skin.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: But I trust myself that I can tolerate that.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna fail.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: I may fail.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm probably gonna fail.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: At least it's some things, or maybe a lot of things in life.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: We're all going to fail.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: But I trust myself that I can recover from that.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: I can pick myself up off the ground, wipe, you know, dust the dirt off my knees, and keep moving forward.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: That's much sturdier than trying to eliminate uncertainty.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: And and looking at it like a moment to learn from something.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: Right?
47:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, like take something away from it.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
47:21
SPEAKER_02: Positive positive.
47:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
47:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: What can I learn from this?
47:24
SPEAKER_01: All right.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: So here are so maybe these are some little power moves, or these are some five questions for you all to take with you at the end of this episode.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: So imposter phenomenon.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: When imposter feelings show up for you, ask yourself, what does the evidence actually say about my competence?
47:43
SPEAKER_01: What does the evidence actually say about your competence?
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Evidence, evidence, evidence.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Next question.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Am I moving the finish line again?
47:54
SPEAKER_01: And some of you are doing this all the time.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Am I moving the finish line again?
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Am I demanding perfection before I let myself feel qualified?
48:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a big one.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: Am I demanding perfection before I let myself feel qualified?
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Is my identity simply catching up to a new role?
48:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's what's going on right now.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're in this identity change and it's catching up to this new role that you're in in your life, whether it be in your personal or your professional life.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: Let your identity catch up.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Am I using anxiety to keep myself performing?
48:28
SPEAKER_01: And if you are, you gotta work on that.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't want that for you.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't want that for you.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: That's a private hell to be there.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: It's that's not good.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a terrible feeling.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Don't use your anxiety to keep yourself performing.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: That is just a high stress life, okay?
48:45
SPEAKER_01: So because sometimes you've already become the person that you're waiting to feel like, right?
48:49
SPEAKER_01: You're already the leader, you're already the expert, you're already capable, you already are all of those things.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: You're just waiting for some internal ceremony where your brain finally says to you, okay, now you can believe it.
49:04
SPEAKER_02: Nice work.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think for a lot of you, yeah, your brain's not gonna do that.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: You have to decide it, you have to change that neural pathway.
49:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: By doing answering these questions I set before you and doing the internal work, change the pathway.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: All right.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: So the ceremony, you know, you're never gonna have a ceremony.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: Your brain's never gonna have a ceremony for you.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: At some point, you have to stop waiting to feel legitimate.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: Stop waiting to feel legitimate and start looking at the evidence that you already are.
49:36
SPEAKER_01: You already are all of these things.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: Important.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: And this is not just women, it can be men too.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: All right, if this resonated for you, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: I love to all of you until next time.