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SMNTY Classics: Why do so few women coach women's basketball? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Will Never Told You Production. I heart are you, And
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: today we are bringing back an episode that Kristen and
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Caroline did about women coaching women's basketball and why are
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: there so many women coaches? Now this is a bit
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of an older episode and things have changed, but we
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: talked about this in our recent Olympic episode. We did
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: that it's still the gender difference is still there. I
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: noticed it when I was watching the Olympics. I have
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to say a lot of the stuff that I mentioned
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: in my recent Monday mini about the Olympics, they were
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: women coaches for the US anyway, But it is still
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: it's still an issue. I think we should maybe come
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: back and do like a a full blown revisit.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I would love to get some updated.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Right because we have people going into the NFL. People
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: are going into like different actually like male dominated sports
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: or male only sports NFL yeah and all that, and
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: there are women coaches coming through finally, and referees. I
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: think we need to talk about it.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, I told you, I've been wanting to talk about
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: referees for a while. Mm hmm. Well, in the meantime,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from HowStuffWorks dot Com.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: and we are coming at you in the midst of
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: March madness, even though it's April.
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, basketball madness.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: NCAA Final Four is about to happen here in the
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: men's tournament at least is happening in Atlanta, right.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: It's supposed to bring something like seventy million dollars worth
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: of revenue to the city, and thank you.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: And two hundred million people.
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: Who Lamarta is gonna be a little cramped, yeah, and
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: the streets.
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: Ah, And for this podcast, we're gonna gripe about traffic
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: in Atlanta, just kidding. We're gonna talk about basketball, but
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: we're not talking about the players. We're talking about the
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: coaches because in honor of the NCAA basketball tournament, we
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: thought it would be worthwhile looking at women's basketball coaches,
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: which might sound like a narrow topic, but there is
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: a lot in here to discuss.
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there just aren't as many as perhaps
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: there should be. And something we'll get into is that. Okay,
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: so you've got the men's men's basketball, it's all coached
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: by men. Yeah, and you've got the women's basketball and
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: it's coached by some women, but a lot of men too.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: But a lot of men.
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. We're gonna get into how title actually corresponded with
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: fewer women coaching female basketball teams and other factors at play.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Huh pun in all of this, But first, let's talk about.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: The winningest basketball coach in the NCAA, Pat Summitt.
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Pat Summitt was actually a basketball player at University
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: of Tennessee Martin when Title nine was introduced, so she
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: was kind of in the thick of it. She's now
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: the head coach emeritus of Tennessee women's basketball team. Thirty
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: eight years as a head coach, and she stepped down
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: because she made the very sad announcement that she has Alzheimer's.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's coming out with a new memoir. I
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: believe the title is Summit Up. And her story is
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: pretty incredible. Like you said, Caroline, she was coming up
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: when Title nine was introduced, and before that. She talks
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: about how the women's athletic budget at UT Martin when
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: she got there was about five hundred dollars to be
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: distributed among volleyball, basketball, and tennis, and after the passage
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: of Title nine in nineteen seventy two, those budgets increased,
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: but it wasn't exactly smooth sailing, as we'll talk about
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: in more detail, but for a little more about Pat Summit.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: She ended up playing in the first women's Olympic team
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: to play basketball, and a little bit more though about
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  Speaker 4: Pat's Summit. Some highlights from her career were not only
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: did she, you know, play with U Team Martin, but
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  Speaker 4: she also played in the nineteen seventy six Summer Olympic
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: Games in Montreal because for the first time they had
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: a women's basketball team, and Summit's team brought home the silver.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: And then she went on to coach the team in
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  Speaker 4: the nineteen eighty four Olympics in Los Angeles.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, she has a really interesting perspective as far as
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: you know, having been a coach all this time, but
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: also coming up during the whole Title nine passage and everything.
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  Speaker 5: In her new book, she says that three events in
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: nineteen seventy two changed everything, and that includes that a
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: group of dedicated women administrators formed the Association of Intercollegiate
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  Speaker 5: Athletics for Women because she says the NCAA didn't yet
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: care enough about females to bother with us. She also
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: says that it was very important the announcement that women's
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: basketball would be an Olympics sport for the first time
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: at those nineteen seventy six Summer Olympics, and of course
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: the passing of Title nine.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and she talks about how those developments made winning
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: available to women. For instance, with that establishment, Caroline that
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: you mentioned of the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women.
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  Speaker 2: The title is a bit of a mouthful.
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  Speaker 4: They organized the first championship for women's basketball teams, which
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: was a really important stepping stone to legitimize the sport
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  Speaker 4: for women. It also made competition more socially acceptable with
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: Title nine, and it allowed women to play a full
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: court basketball game.
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  Speaker 5: Well, thank god. I mean, I'm glad that they reached
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: the point where they're like, good, it won't bounce your
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: uterus around too much if you run up and down
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  Speaker 5: a full court.
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  Speaker 4: Right, Because this reminds me of our episode on women
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: running marathon, and even when Summit was going to those
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: Summer Olympics in nineteen seventy six in Montreal, it was
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  Speaker 4: still a crazy idea for.
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  Speaker 2: A woman to run that long of a distance.
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  Speaker 4: So this was the kind of mindset that was going
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: on when Title nine was introduced. And Pat Summit is
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: going to come up a few more times in this
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  Speaker 4: podcast because since she is the winningest coach in NC
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: Double A and the highest paid female coach in the
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: NC DOUBLEA, she's sort of held, as you know, the
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: pillar of female coaches. I'd say, not just in basketball,
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  Speaker 4: but pretty much in all collegiate sports because she made
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  Speaker 4: such an incredible name.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: For herself for sure.
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  Speaker 6: But first, Caroline, speaking of women being allowed to play
• 7:07
  Speaker 6: full court basketball and bouncing our uteruses around, let's take
• 7:14
  Speaker 6: a brief historical look at basketball for women.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, before it was for women, it was only
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  Speaker 5: for men, obviously, as is everything. Sorry that I didn't
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: mean that to sound so better.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Except for corsets. Yeah, those have always just been for women.
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, high heels though, No, that's true for men. Yeah, anyway,
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: I started it. So, Yeah, Rosemary Scain wrote a very
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: comprehensive book titled Very Simply Women College Basketball Coaches.
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  Speaker 2: I bet you can guess what that's about.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: But so in eighteen ninety one, basketball was designed for
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  Speaker 5: male athletes who needed a winter sport because God forbid
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  Speaker 5: they not play sports for a minute. So the first
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  Speaker 5: public game was in March eighteen ninety two, but it
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  Speaker 5: was not that long after that women started playing. Three
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: months after that first public men's game. In March eighteen
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  Speaker 5: ninety two, Senda Berenson, Smith College's director of physical training,
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  Speaker 5: introduced the game to women, and the first women's game
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: was played March twenty second, eighteen ninety three at Smith.
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: And in case you're wondering at the score, Kristen Sophomore's five,
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: freshman four.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that.
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  Speaker 4: Game was just between Smith's students. The first intercollegiate women's
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: game happened between Berkeley and Stanford.
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  Speaker 2: Berkeley alumni out there. You won? Oh no, you lost?
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  Speaker 5: Christin really wanted you to.
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  Speaker 2: Win, but trivia alert.
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  Speaker 4: Stanford's Martha Clark made the very first basket in women's
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  Speaker 4: intercollegiate history, and she did so while wearing.
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  Speaker 2: A woolen uniform.
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  Speaker 4: That covered everything except for the face, neck, and hands.
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  Speaker 4: As were you know the uniforms that all the women
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  Speaker 4: would be wearing.
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  Speaker 5: I noticed you did not include feet in that list.
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  Speaker 5: Were they footy? Uniform.
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  Speaker 4: The uniform, I think they were allowed to expose their
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: feet in order to put them into shoes.
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  Speaker 5: Well, you know, it is scandalous to have women running
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  Speaker 5: and playing sports, even in full body footy uniforms. The
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: day of that game, only two men were allowed to watch,
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  Speaker 5: and they were a pell physical education director and an instructor.
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  Speaker 5: Women guarded the windows of the auditorium with sticks to
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  Speaker 5: keep men from sneaking a peak and scain rights. Even
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  Speaker 5: letting women watch was apparently considered dangerous since basketball was
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  Speaker 5: invented form men. Physicians who believed women were delicate said
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  Speaker 5: women would become hysterical watching other women play basketball.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my, oh my. Although I do sometimes become hysterical
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  Speaker 2: watching sporting events.
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  Speaker 5: But probably not for the reason that they think.
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  Speaker 2: This is true.
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  Speaker 4: So it takes a little while, though, for them to
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  Speaker 4: develop rules for women's basketball. In eighteen ninety four, the
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  Speaker 4: first women's rules appeared, but they weren't widely circulated. Then.
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  Speaker 4: In June eighteen ninety nine, Senda Bearnson, who was that
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  Speaker 4: director of physical training at Smith College, worked with other
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  Speaker 4: East Coast physical ed teachers to develop women's rules at
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: the Conference on Physical Training and so in October of
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  Speaker 4: nineteen oh one, finally a good year. Yes, Spalding Sporting
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  Speaker 4: Goods published her rules as the official rules for women's basketball.
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  Speaker 2: But those rules.
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  Speaker 4: Emphasize maintaining ladylike behavior of course, no snatching of the
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  Speaker 4: ball for instance. But Benson did favor physical activity. She said, quote,
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  Speaker 4: it's all the more to develop health and endurance if
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: they desire to become candidates for equal wages. So a
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: little bit of feminism tossed in there as well. Basketball
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  Speaker 4: playing basketball can help you earn equal wages with men.
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  Speaker 2: It can close the gender gap.
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  Speaker 4: Unfortunately, send to Bearnson, those predictions were not not really
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  Speaker 4: uh come to fruition.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, Clelia Duelle Mosher, I'm sorry if I'm really
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: sorry if I just butchered her name. She was a
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  Speaker 5: physician background this time in the Victorian era, and she
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  Speaker 5: agreed with Bearnson as far as like, let women have
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  Speaker 5: physical activity. So no, she had nothing to do with
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  Speaker 5: actual basketball. But it was during this time that she
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: was of the same school of thought that women actually
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: needed to have some physical activity, and she wanted to
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: prove that women were not inferior to men and that
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  Speaker 5: the frailties attributed to sex were really just the effects
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  Speaker 5: of binding garments like those corsets, insufficient exercise and mental conditioning.
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  Speaker 5: So get those women onto the court playing sports and
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  Speaker 5: maybe one day will be equal.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, Because I mean as much as we think about
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: how exercise is something that we today can sitter part of,
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: you know, a well balanced life where you're supposed to
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: do exercise, what five days a week for sixty minutes
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: at a time, I'm pulling that out of the air.
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  Speaker 2: You're supposed to do it a lot.
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  Speaker 4: But when all of this was going on, it was
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: socially unacceptable for women to be moving around like that.
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  Speaker 4: This was also the time when things like bicycles were
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: coming into vogue, and it was a big deal for
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: women to ride bicycles because it rumors, yes, it would
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: be straddling things.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: How would you do that.
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  Speaker 4: You'd have to wear maybe something like a Bloomer invented
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: by Amelia Bloomer, who was an early feminist. You know,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: things that we take for granted were revolutionary at the time,
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: like basketball.
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  Speaker 2: But let's talk about a.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Few more of the more modern pioneers of women's basketball,
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: such as Carol Eckman, who is considered the mother of
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: collegiate women's basketball national championships. She's best known for establishing
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: the first national invitational women's interco li legiate basketball tournament
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty nine.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, and then we have Teresa Shank Grantz, who is
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: the former head coach of the women's basketball program at
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: the University of Illinois, Rutgers University, and Saint Joseph. She's
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: a member of the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame and
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: was the Olympic head coach in nineteen ninety two and
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: that year her team captured the bronze medal in Barcelona.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: And Billy Moore, for some more trivia, was the first
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: coach in women's basketball history to lead teams from two
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: different schools to national championships. In those schools were California
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: State Fullerton and UCLA. So we are moving into the
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: modern era, and like we said in nineteen seventy two,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Title nine happens. So with Title nine, schools that are
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: receiving this federal funding have to equally distribute it for
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: men's and women's athletics. But what we want to look
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: at is how Title nine impacted not so much the
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: players and the women who like Pat Summitt benefited from
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: Title nine by having more resources to be able to
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: get out on the court or get out on the
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: field and play. But how again, for people like Pat Summitt,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: once their time was up playing, whether or not coaching
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: would be more open to them as a lucrative occupation.
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: Right, Well, it definitely influenced how people saw women's sports,
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: and not just making it more socially acceptable, but also
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: making it, yeah, like you said, more lucrative because all
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: of a sudden, all this money's flowing in, and now
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: maybe men who wouldn't have considered coaching women's teams are like, huh,
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: there's more in it for me now.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: So yeah, speaking of men being interested in coaching women's teams,
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: a curious thing happens when Title nine is passed. In
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two, women coached more than ninety percent of
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: women's teams, but in such a short amount of time,
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: by nineteen seventy eight, that number had dropped to fifty
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: eight point two percent, and as of twenty ten, it
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: was down to forty two point nine percent. So today
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: women coach fewer than half of women's college teams.
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and since two thousand NCAA programs have added one thousand,
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: seven hundred and seventy four women's head coaching jobs. Men
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: have filled over twelve hundred of those openings. And you know,
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: only about three percent of men's teams are coached by women.
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: And that's a whole other issue, like why aren't women
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: coaching men's teams either?
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that percentage, the percentage of women coaching men's
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: teams has not changed at all since Title nine. The
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: only thing that has dropped is the percentage of women
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: coaching other women. And a lot of these statistics are
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: coming from early comprehensive Our to Call from ESPN magazine
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: written by Kate Fagan and Luke Cipher's on which they're
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: looking into this gender gap in women coaching, specifically women's teams,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: because you would assume, oh, well, women's sports teams, you
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: can have a women's a female coach, But no, because,
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: like you said, Caroline, the increased money coming into women's
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: sports simply made it a more desirable option for men's
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: coaches who might not have been as qualified right as
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: potential women's coaches.
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: Well, so they looked into some of the reasons as
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: for like why there aren't as many women coaching teams,
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: and a lot of it has to do with, Okay,
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: there's a small pool of female candidates, there's a lack
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: of second chances for female coaches. A lot of women
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: if they screw up, it's just kind of it's not
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: the same revolving door type of situation that men have,
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: like they can just go to a different team. A
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: lot of the times, if women are fired or lose
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: their coaching, that's it for them. A lack of female mentors,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: women just not applying for these jobs retaliation for Title
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: nine complaints. But a lot of it also has to
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: do with sexism and homophobia. Yeah, there's this habit of
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: women's basketball coaches hiring male assistants to be kind of
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: that quote unquote straight presence, because there's this whole issue
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: in recruiting, of negative recruiting, of saying, you know, we're
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: a family friendly program, but over there, you know that
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: female coach at that school, you know, we're not so sure.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because the stereotype is is that female sports coaches
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: are lesbians, and so the type of homophobic recruiting that
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: goes on is referred to as family friendly recruitment, saying
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: things like to a new recruit like, oh, you know,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: we're a very family oriented environment, with a wink and
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: a nudge to the parents saying, don't worry your daughter
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: won't be coached by a lesbian and possibly corrupted because
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: of this. And again, ESPN magazine covered this in February
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: twenty eleven in and among fifty five percent of the
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: college players that ESPN spoke to, they said that sexual
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: orientation was quote an underlying topic of conversation with college
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: recruiters fifty five percent. So the homophobia is a pretty
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: rampant thing, and it's also a deterrent for would be
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: coaches who might be gay, who are like, you know what,
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: I don't want to have to live a closeted professional
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: life and also be you know, slurred for my for
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: my lifestyle.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that same ESPN article talked about how these homophobic
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: negative recruiting policies are not policies but practices are pretty
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: unique to the women's game. You don't have a a
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: male recruit coming up from high school, coming up the
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: ranks and them talking about, you know, issues of family friendliness.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: But it's a general open secret as far as like
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: the code words of family friendly.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: For instance, University of Tennessee and University of Connecticut don't
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: play each other anymore, allegedly due to Yukon's anti gay
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: recruitment against UT, claiming that, oh Pat.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Summit is a lesbian and so you don't want to
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: send your kids there.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Apparently it was a huge rivalry and the game used
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: to be a giant draw until finally Summit and University
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: of Tennessee where like, you know, we're not even gonna
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: play this game.
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: Well, so now that's less money coming into a women's game, right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Which you know, women's sports can use as much money
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: as possible, which we'll get into a little bit later.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: But in nineteen eighty two ESPN. But ESPN also talks
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: about how in nineteen eighty two there was this homophobia
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: mongering case of Pam Parsons, who resigned as coach of
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: South Carolina after allegations that she had a relationship with one.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Of her basketball players.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: And they say that since that incident, that kind of
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: anti gay recruitment has been almost a common.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Part of the process, which is unfortunate.
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so common that Portland State's Sherry Mural is the
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: only out lesbian in Division one women's basketball.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we should say too that it's not just
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: a thing of the whole family friendly thing. It's not
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: just a wink and a nudge to you know, homophobic sentiments.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: But it's also a thing a wink in a nudge saying, oh,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: this isn't a black program either, we are you know,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: everything will be safe for your child.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: There's a lot, there's a dirty underbelly to this that's
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: going on.
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: So yeah, we mentioned how, you know, with all with
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: the influx of funds after the passage of Title nine,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: coaching a women's basketball game became our a team, I'm sorry,
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: became more attractive to male coaches. And this brings us
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: to what we call a glass wall phenomenon where men
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: can coach women while women are shut out of the
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: men's game. So you know, they can see the jobs
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: through the glass wall, but they can't get there. And
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: along these same lines, a really interesting survey by Nefert D. Walker,
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: who is a UMAs Amherst professor and former Division one
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: basketball player. She talked to male coaches about, you know,
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: would you hire a woman, would you want to work
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: with a female coach? She found out that breaking that
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: institutional norm of hiring a woman as a coach really
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: required an exceptional candidate, like women have a much higher
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: burden of proof to use a legal term. Because they
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: all cited Pat Summit. Yeah, they were all like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: you've got Pat Summit. I mean she's great. I'd totally
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: work with her.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: I was like, of course, you would hire the winningest
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: coach in the NC double A. But there does seem
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: to be sometimes a disconnect maybe between what male athletic
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: directors or coaches think is going on. It's almost like
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: a blind sexism that might be happening to what female
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: coaches or would be coaches are feeling. There was a
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: study that took place in the nineteen eighties which found
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: that male athletic directors believed that female coaches left their
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: schools for just individual.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Reasons like going to spend more time with family or.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: What have you, whereas the female coaches who left had
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: actually jumped ship due to structural barriers like the glasswall phenomenon,
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: like the kind of homophobia that is still happening so
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: often today, and it is a problem because it doesn't
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: seem to be there, doesn't seem to be a ton
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: of communication at least between these.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: You know, the men and women in athletics.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: It's just kind of a thing where the female basketball
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: players don't see many female coaches, they don't have many models,
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: and they also know of women who are coaching.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: In the rare positions where they are coaching or our.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Assistants, and they really don't like the jobs all that
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: much and so they choose other paths.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, that's definitely a cycle. You see fewer coaches,
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: you have fewer role models, you might not choose that path,
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: and then you have no female coaches anymore. And it's
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: interesting that other Division one sports who which are traditionally
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: coached by women, are starting to see a decline also
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: in female coaches, like Division one softball female coaches are
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: down from seventy four point eight percent in two thousand
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: to sixty percent and twenty ten, and Division one field
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: hockey female coaches dropped from ninety eight percent in two
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: thousand to eighty seven percent and twenty ten. So maybe
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: not as significant as basketball as the dip the basketball seeing,
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: but still some of these coaches that ESPN talked to
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: were concerned, like, Hey, we don't want to you know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: it's not that we hate men, we just don't want
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: to lose coaching opportunities.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: And Nicole Lavoy, who's the associate director of the Tuckerson
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: for Research on Girls and Women in Sports, has looked
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: into this issue of, you know, the female coaching role
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: model a lot, and she talks about how youth sports
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: are overwhelmingly coached by men. The whole thing is that
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: the dad's coach while the moms drive and put out
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: orange slices, and so they grow up to be recruits
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: that don't want a female coach. There was also a
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: study that we found called Working with Male Athletes the
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Experience of US Female head Coaches, and they talk to
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: these female coaches about their experience with mentors and interestingly
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: found that one of the common themes was actually having
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: a negative experience with youth.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Sports with a female coach.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: And they also cited though an NCAA survey from two
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: thousand and nine which found that a only ten percent
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: of female student athletes even care to pursue coaching, and
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: that of that the rest of those who did not
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: want to pursue it, fifty three percent cided knowing a
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: female coach he was not happy in her role, So
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: something is clearly going on here.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: Well, Matthew Mallady in September twenty twelve asked why don't
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: we care that there aren't any female coaches coaching men?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: For instance?
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: Like, why don't Why isn't it more of a big
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: deal that we have so few women out there? And
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: he wrote that there are zero female head or assistant
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: coaches for the one hundred and twenty two teams playing
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL. It's basically considered impossible.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: He says that only three women have ever been assistant
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: coaches for men's college basketball teams. That's Bernadette Mattox, Jennifer Johnston,
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: and Stephanie Ready. And he said that this whole choosing
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: a coach from such a narrowpool thing is a totally
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: flawed system, the narrowpool being only men and only certain men.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was illuminating to read the coverage of Nancy Lieberman,
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: who was a superstar point guard for Old Dominion, who
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: played professionally for both men's and women's teams before coaching
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: the WNBA's Detroit Shock and then became head coach of
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: the Texas Legends, which was a men's team in the
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: NBA's Development League.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: And it was this huge.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: Deal because finally we have a female coach of a
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: professional team, even though it was a development league. But nevertheless,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: all of these major media outlets are covering Nancy Lieberman
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: and the only thing they want to talk about is
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: the fact that, oh, you're a woman coaching a man's
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: team and talking to these athletes like, how is it being,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: you know, being.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Coached by a woman? How can you handle that?
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: And most of the time the responses were just along
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: the lines of she's coach.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: What I mean, she calls the plays and we run them.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: What else do you want to know?
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And there was one interview, you know what, I'm
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: not even sure if it was about Nancy Lieberman or
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: just another female coach, maybe even on the high school side,
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: but one of the players said, yeah, she's tiny, but
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: when she's mad, she's seven feet tall. Yeah, you know, like,
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: it's not an issue of she has a vagina. I'm
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: not going to listen to her. It's she's the coach,
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: she's the authority figure. She's telling us what to do.
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: We're the players.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: We listen to her, and I can't imagine that in
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: locker room situations, there might be different dynamics of a
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: woman sitting there and talking to a group of guys
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: versus a guy sitting there talking to a group of women.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: But I wonder why that is why we are more
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: comfortable with men leading a group of women on the
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: field than we are with a woman leading a group
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: of men on.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: The field or the court. I should say, as we're
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: speaking about basketball.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: Specifically, maybe it's just what we're used to seeing. Yeah,
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: I mean, what we are accustomed to seeing on the television.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it almost makes you wish that Pat
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: Summit had, you know, coach the UT men's team instead
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: of the women's team. But then again, we don't want
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: to take away good coaches from women's athletics. And I
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: think that is one of the main reasons why she
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: is so dedicated to that women's team, because she came
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: up through the ranks and knew firsthand what it was
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: like to be marginalized as a female athlete. And speaking
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: of marginalization, because this is kind of a downer topic,
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: let's talk about wages.
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, salary, let's get into that now.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: The twenty eleven coaches compensation four schools and for the
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: previous five NCUBA women's basketball tournaments were pretty handsome. You know,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Pat Summit makes a lot of money.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: That year.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: According to stats published by USA Today, she brought in
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: one point nine million dollars.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: I want to become a women's basketball coach.
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: If you like, just throw the ball at the net.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: You got it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: Go ladies, hooray.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: But just for contrast, Pat Summitt again, winning is coach.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: But just for contrast, again, Pat Summit winning as coach
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: in the nc doublea one point nine million dollars. Her
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: men's coach counterpart at the University of Tennessee brought in
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: one point five million dollars a little bit less. But
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: if we go to the top earner for men's teams
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: over Louisville with Rick Patino, that dude brought home eight
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: point nine million dollars.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: You can buy some fancy new shoes with that.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Basketball is almost as lucrative as podcasting. Carolina.
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, sum It's compensation package is definitely unusual
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: for women coaches. But from twenty three to twenty ten,
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: let's get some perspective, the average salary for the coach
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: of an NCAA Division one men's team in any sport
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: increased by sixty seven percent to two hundred and sixty
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: seven thousand ish. The average salary for the coach of
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: a women's team increased only by sixteen percent in that time,
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: to ninety eight thousand.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: And I'm sure that you know people would say, hey,
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: why are you complaining about a ninety eight thousand dollars
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: average salary? But when you look at this breakdown of
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: these major pay gaps for male and female coaches, you
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: know it's I think it speaks to something larger.
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And then for Division one basketball in particular, the
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: median salary for coaches of a men's team in twenty
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: ten was nearly twice that of coaches for women's team,
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: and over the past four years, the median pay of
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: men's head coaches increased by forty percent compared with twenty
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: eight percent for women's coaches. So yes, you could argue, okay,
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: if you're looking at all Division one sports into in
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: one package, men could be making more because they're coaching
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: more of the high profile sports like football, basketball. Women
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: might be teacher coaching more of the low profile sports. Okay,
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: So like softball or something. Yeah, but yeah, I mean
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: when you look at the actual basketball stats, women coaches
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: just are not getting the same increases in salary that
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: men are.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: And you would say, well, that's not right, because under
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: the Equal Pay Act of nineteen sixty three, the pay
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: for male basketball coach versus a female basketball coach should
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: be comparable. But those differences emerge from third party money.
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: For instance, you know, Louisville's Rick Patino brings in a
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: bulk of that eight point nine million dollars, not so
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: much from coaching, but on supplements, talent fees, appearance fees,
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: endorsement agreements with apparel companies, summer camp, summer campus are
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: a huge way that coaches make cash, and those kinds
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: of opportunities are simply not there as much for female coaches.
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: And there was an interesting thing pointed out. The writer
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: talk to some lawyers who deal with contracts and said
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: that athletic directors usually assume that women's players will be
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: better students, so the academic clauses often are not included
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: for these coaches, and those academic clauses being you know,
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: if your player, if your student athletes do really well
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: in school, you'll make a bit of a bonus. They're like,
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: women are already smart. Yeah, so we're just gonna give
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: you less money.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: For the women's teams, the academic clause is not there,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: But for the guys teams, it's like high five, all
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: your players made good grades.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Good for you.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: But there's an interesting way too that men's coaches for
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: women's teams can actually offer a cost savings to athletic
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: departments because the Equal Pay Act focuses on gender based discrimination.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: So the New York Times offered the example of Kentucky's
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: coach of the men's basketball team earning a one hundred
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars bonus when his team made Round sixteen of
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: the NCAA Tournament, but the Wildcats women's coach received a
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: forty thousand dollars bonus for doing the exact same thing.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: But because both coaches were dudes, no problem under the
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: Equal Pay Act. So maybe some schools are actively courting
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: more male coaches because they just don't have to deal
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: with all of the equal pay.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Kind of stuff. Yeah.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. The fact of the matter is about a third
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: of women's teams were profitable as of twenty ten, according
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: to the Department of Education, and even then the annual
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: net profit was on average less than sixteen thousand dollars,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: and those were usually among smaller schools. So sure, I mean,
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: from a financial standpoint, investing a lot in female coaches.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: When you're not getting much out of those teams money.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: Wise, you might not be as motivated to really invest
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of resources in that.
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but there's a lot of talent out there, And
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: I mean Bleacher Report is one of the sources that
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: did recognize a lot of coaches of women's teams, not
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: just female coaches of women's teams, but male coaches also.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: I mean they there were a lot of names among
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: their fifty best college basketball coaches, and I won't list
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: all of them, but of course Pat Summits on there,
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: Tara van Derveer from Stanford, Vivian Stringer from Rutgers, and
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: then people like Andy Landers from Uga who coaches the
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: Lady Dogs. There is room, there is more room for
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: women to coach sports. But it's I mean, is it
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: when is it going to change, Kristin?
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: When are we going to be like, yes.
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: We want more women role models. Is it just going
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: to become a cycle of terrible, terrible things where we
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: have few women's coaches, so girls grow up not having
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: women's coaches, and then they only want men for coaches.
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like the problem is so multifaceted
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: and largely money driven. Yeah that I don't think that
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: not to be a cynic, I don't think that we
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: are going to see many major changes anytime soon at all,
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: because bottom line, I think the fact that only a
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: third of women's teams, and I think that is across
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: sports are even profitable is an argument against investing more
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: resources in women's sports. And I think socially, you know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: we don't value women's athletics as much as we value
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: men's period.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Think about the NBA versus the w NBA, which.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: How many jokes have you heard about watching women play basketball? Yeah,
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: insert punchline. And I think that when I would like,
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: you know, listeners as we watch the NC DOUBLEA tournament
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: and stuff too, I don't know, consider all of the
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: attention that those men's teams get versus the women who
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: are in you know, their own NC DOUBLEA tournament. For instance,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: today on the news, I heard that, you know, President
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: Obama released his brackets for the NC Double a team.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: I think he's pulling for Indiana to win everything.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: The president's talking about it.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, no one's doing the same thing for
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: the women's teams, and if they were too, it would
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: be it would probably be some kind of a joke,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: you know. But it's worth thinking about from from the
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: coaching downward, and also those recruiting tactics, you know, the
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: negative assumptions, and also why would it be a bad
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: thing if your coach is a lesbian?
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: All that kind of stuff that's.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Wrapped up into something we might not think about all
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: that much. A because we don't see it, because we
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: don't see women coaching all that much. And you know,
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: it's really only this one time of year when we're
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: even paying all that much attention to basketball. Maybe that's
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: just me not an avid basketballer. Yeah, I don't know,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: what do you think?
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're gonna be waiting a while, Yeah,
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: before we see a lot more women's coaches. And you know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: maybe we're gonna be waiting even longer than I think,
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: because obviously the numbers are on the down swing.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's definitely it's worth a conversation of you know,
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: why why are we so not okay with seeing women coaching,
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: especially women coaching men's teams.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: They're here and there, but they're such anominally well yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, there are plenty of men's coaches, male men's
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: coaches who maybe weren't good enough to play in college,
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: but they're still excellent coaches because they have a head
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: for the game. Yeah, they've studied, you know, they love
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: the game. They're great coaches. So you know, that's another argument,
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: like if a woman who didn't necessarily play at a
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: big school play basketball at a big school in college,
• 37:30
  Speaker 5: she can still coach women or men if she studies,
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: is passionate about the game, you know.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, But like you said, though, I mean that
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: all roots back to that finding out of ums Amherst
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: nep for T. D. Walker's study that female coaches inherently
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: have that higher burden of proof to meet.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we could obviously just go on and on and.
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: So if we could just clone Pat Summit, that's the answer.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Yes, But in the meantime, basketball players out there, coaches,
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: anyone interested in sports, or if you just want to send.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Us your bracket, let us know your I won't know
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: what to do with it.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: Caroline, let's talk a little bit about snailmail and stamps
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: dot com.
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: So something I never knew, Kristen is that postage meter
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: companies used to have the monopoly on printing postage. They
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  Speaker 5: could charge you an arm and a leg to print
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  Speaker 5: Now you can use stamps dot com. And with stamps
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  Speaker 5: is your computer, your printer, and stamps dot Com to
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  Speaker 5: get official US postage.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 4: At stamps dot com, you can get exact postage for
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  Speaker 4: any letter or package in any class of mail. And
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  Speaker 4: better yet, right now, you can use the promo code
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  Speaker 4: so don't wait. Go to samps dot com before you
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  Speaker 4: do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top
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  Speaker 4: of the homepage and type in stuff.
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  Speaker 5: That's stamps dot com. Enter stuff. And speaking of letters,
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  Speaker 5: I have one here from Emily, She says, while listening
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  Speaker 5: to your podcast on animal testing, my opinion on animal
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  Speaker 5: testing really changed. I have an albino labrat as a pet.
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: Long story short, he needed a home before he was
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  Speaker 5: fed to a snake, and I realized I just couldn't
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  Speaker 5: deal with the thought of my sweet little friend being
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  Speaker 5: in pain just for a product that might not even
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  Speaker 5: hit the human market. Ever, I wish products would not
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  Speaker 5: contain dangerous enough ingredients that require animal testing to make
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: sure the product is safe for human use. After so
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  Speaker 5: many years of scientific research, we know what is and
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  Speaker 5: isn't toxic. While I understand there will always be animal
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  Speaker 5: testing for medical purposes to save human lives, I hope
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  Speaker 5: animal testing will decrease in the cosmetic industry. These little
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  Speaker 5: fellows have feelings too, and I've made a great friend
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  Speaker 5: with a rat bread to be food slash a lab test.
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  Speaker 5: So thank you, Emily. And I am just picturing your
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  Speaker 5: little friend wearing a teeny tiny mouse hat.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: Well, I've got one here from a lease about that
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  Speaker 4: same episode on animal research, and she writes it got
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  Speaker 4: me a little riled. I am a MD PhD student
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  Speaker 4: studying molecular genetics and I use mice in my research
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  Speaker 4: for my PhD, and of course I listened to this
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  Speaker 4: most recent podcast while working in my lab. I know
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  Speaker 4: most of the podcast was about commercial testing on animals,
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  Speaker 4: but you did seem to conflate animal research and animal
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  Speaker 4: testing on occasion. I must confess I don't know what
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  Speaker 4: the rules are for animal testing of commercial products, or
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  Speaker 4: even if there are any rules, which is a scary thought. However,
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  Speaker 4: animals used in medical school research are very tightly controlled.
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  Speaker 4: Our university receives National Institutes of Health funds, so all
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  Speaker 4: investigators at the school have to comply with NIH animal
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  Speaker 4: testing guidelines. Everyone who works with lab animals has to
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  Speaker 4: go through training, and there are very strict rules for
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  Speaker 4: how you can operate on or kill an animal. For example,
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  Speaker 4: animals can only be euthanized using methods proven to cause
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  Speaker 4: the animal minimal suffering, and if the surgery is done
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  Speaker 4: on the animal, even the dosing of anesthetics is regulated. Also,
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  Speaker 4: when you apply to the NIH for funding, you have
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  Speaker 4: to estimate the number of animals that you use and
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: justify why you can't use fewer than that number. I
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: know this system isn't perfect and it took me a
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  Speaker 4: long time to come to terms with using animals in
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: my research, but for now it's what we've got. So
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: thanks alast Into everyone who has written into Mom's Stuff
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  Speaker 4: at Discovery dot com. You can also find us on
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: Facebook there leave us a note if you'd like. You
• 42:05
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  Speaker 4: Podcasts and on Tumblr at stuff Moomnever Told You dot
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  Speaker 4: of the rules at houstuffworks dot com.
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  Speaker 2: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit
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  Speaker 2: houstuffworks dot com.