Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "Living Colour's Time's Up (33 1/3)"/Kimberly Mack [Episode 138]

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"Living Colour's Time's Up (33 1/3)"/Kimberly Mack [Episode 138] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Oh, we're totally I mean, I'll leave you do you're reading Little Hands,
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It's time to run and roll. We are totally booked. Welcome back
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to book don Rock, the podcast for those about to read and rock.
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Booked on Rock dot com is the website and you can link up to all
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the social media sites there. Booked on Rock is on YouTube, Instagram,
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Twitter, and Facebook. Kimberly Mack is this episode's guest. She's the author
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of times Up. It's part of the thirty three and a third series of
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books. She focuses on the nineteen ninety album times Up by Living Color.
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Mac explores the album, recorded in the aftermath of the critical and commercial success
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of the band's debut record Vivid. Through interviews with members of Living Color and
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others involved in the making of Times Up, Mac explores the creation and reception
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of this artistically challenging album while examining the legacy of this culturally important, at
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groundbreaking American rock band. To hear all of Living Colors Times Up, head
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over to the show notes page. But first here is Kimberly Mac. Hi,
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Kim, Welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you so much for
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having me. This is such a fun read because I've been a fan of
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Living Color for well since the first album nineteen eighty nine. I was a
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senior in high school and I remember it like it was yesterday. Time Flies.
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But this book is about the follow up album, and that's why I
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want to start is I'm interested in why you chose this particular album. You
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write about the importance of Times Up in the introduction. It's important from an
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artistic standpoint, a cultural standpoint, as well as a personal standpoint. You
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see this album marks a coming of age period for you as a fan of
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rock music and as a scholar and music critics. Or can you talk about
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that and why you chose this specific album to write about. So yeah,
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Living Color, We're just really an are really important to me at a particular
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time of my life. They were especially important because I grew up in Brooklyn,
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New York in the nineteen seventies and came of age in the nineteen eighties,
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and I loved rock. My mom was a big fan of rock,
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and she was, you know, somebody who was a boomer who was born
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in forty six and loved rock and roll and then stuck around in the seventies
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and stuck with rock after it had become conflated with whiteness, and she didn't
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she wasn't a tern and she just kept loving the music. So she was
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bringing home stuff like the Police, like I remember hearing rock Sanne for the
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first time, which was I mean, it blew my mind. I loved
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that song so much, and Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and Pat Benatar and
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Devo and then Lizzie and Sex Pistols. So she was bringing home a lot
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of like contemporary new wave and punk stuff, and I grew to really love
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this music as well. Know the whole time though I didn't really know very
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much about where the music came from. You know, my mom also was
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really into rock magazine, so she had a rolling Stone and Cream and Trouser
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Press and Relics hanging around as well, and so I read those things in
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the house, and most of the pictures that I saw were of white rock
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stars. The byelines, I assumed were all white people. So for me,
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rock was just white and it was something that I loved a lot,
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but I just felt a bit distanced from it and alienated. And you know,
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when I went to rock shows. I talked about that in the book.
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I just from the very first one when I was just a kid,
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I was conscious of being one of why I couldn't see any other black people.
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But I'm sure there were a few black people in the audience, but
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I was really conscious that they're not being very many of us. So living
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color when they came on the scene meant so much to me. And I
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remember watching Showtime at the Apollo with my mom on TV when Vivid came out,
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and then also watching again because they also came back on the show for
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Times Up, and we were both just really you know, enamored with these
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four young black men who rocked really hard and were awesome, but they also
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you know, looked like looked like me, and that that meant a lot.
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And I chose Times Up because that was the record that I'd like to
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Vivid a lot. I you know, I loved CULTI personality. I thought
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it was a good song, or it was a great song, but Times
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Up when I heard it for the first time, really kind of woke me
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up a little bit, you know, like it And I'm going to say
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it didn't just wake me up in the sense that it was loud and angry
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and fulfilled with passion, which was part of it, but it also I
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think woke me up to my own anger and my own kind of discomfort stemming
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from a childhood that was spent in a household that was chaotic, you know,
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and violent and just unpredictable, and so hearing Times Up and hearing the
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anger just gave me this outlet and I realized that, oh, wow,
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like rock music, because again I liked I like Van Halen, I like
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led Zeppelm, I did like some music that was a little heavier at times.
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But hearing that, especially the first some Times Up, just gave me
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a clue about like how heavier rock music, or angrier rock music, or
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faster rock music could help me to channel some of that anger. And it
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did make an impact on like my listening I think going forward and other bands
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that I started to embrace that I didn't really I'm not sure I would have
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embraced, you know, so soon after if it hadn't been Living Colors.
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So Living Color meant a lot to me, you know. And then of
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course, just when they came out in eighty eight with Vivid and then continuing
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into Times Up period, they were very, very vocal and loud, and
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they had allowed sustained argument about rock's blackness, and they were really all about
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reclaiming rock is black, and that was also really important. So all of
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those things made Living Color importance to my musical development and personal development and times
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up in particular just gave me a way to deal with my own anger and
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an outlet for that, which is really important to me. And for those
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not familiar with Living Colors background, can you talk about the band's origins and
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Mick Jagger's role in the band's early success and how they were a band who
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had to endure and overcome quite a bit of resistance in the early days.
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As guitars Vernon Reid said it, complete and utter resistance. Yeah, this
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is a New York band. They're all from New York more or less,
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except for Muzz as some sort of Brooklyn association, although Will grew up in
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in Queens. But this is a New York City band who all have They're
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all very different. You know, their backgrounds are actually different, but there
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are some very i think key similarities between their background and two of them are
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just you know, they all grew up in kind of politically conscious black households.
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They all grew up pretty much middle class, and they all had like
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a really diverse introduction to music. You know, like, as Vernon put
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it, there are no guardrails around the music that he was listening to his
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parents. You know, his parents never said, you know, rock music
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is white boy music or whatever. So he and the rest of the band,
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we're listening to all kinds of things. You know. Corey talked about
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just being in New York City and having music pouring out of the windows,
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which is very much a New York City thing, particularly in the summer when
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a lot of people don't have let's say, you know, like central air
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or whatever, and they have bad air conditioning, and so the windows are
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wide open and you really are exposed to all that music. So they all
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kind of shared that in common, and you know, so for them,
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you know, they they all liked rock growing up, as well as other
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kinds of music. And of course Vernon formed the Black Rock Coalition with Greg
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Tait and Condemation and really the whole idea behind that in nineteen eighty five,
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and the whole idea behind the Black Rock Hoalition was, you know, kind
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of creating a as Vernon puts it, naming a community that was unnamed.
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You know, it's like people who musicians who were really into rock music and
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other forms of black music, but felt like the industry and other people were
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putting guardrails up, and they wanted the chance to create music within the full
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you know, constellation of black expression. And so this organization was, you
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know, an advocacy group for those musicians who didn't want to be put into
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a box with you know, just hip hop or R and B. And
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they had this band, and the band, you know, got really hot.
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They were playing in clubs and were kind of a bally buzzy band.
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It was you know, Doug Wimbish who happened to be playing on Mick Jagger's
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solo record, and Mick Jagger had heard the buzz and wanted to go hear
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them play and did and you know, produce their demo. But I think
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a lot of people assume that all that had to happen, that Mick Jagger
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produced the demo and then you know, all the doors would just open,
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and that actually isn't what happened. It still took them a while to get
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signed because there was so much resistance to you know, this idea of an
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all black rock band. Or really probably, I mean, you don't know,
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but even if there had been a couple of black members in the rock
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in the band at that time, there may have still been a lot of
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resistance. But certainly this all black hard rock band, like people could not
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wrap their heads around it, and they had a really an uphill battle getting
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signed and then you know, getting those songs played on radio because rock radio
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was segregated, the genre of rock in general was segregated. The media when
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they came on the scene, you know, we're just so focused on their
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race and their decision to play rock, so it was really just like everybody
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on that side. But then also there were so of course, the music
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industry was you know, white run so MTV and everything else, so there's
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that, But then also black folks were also confused, you know, and
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not necessarily supportive of this band making these kinds of decisions to play this music.
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And then they ended up also having you know, some internal stuff in
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the black rock hoalition because then you know, they were the band that kind
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of broke out, so then you had that kind of stuff. So they
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had a lot of you know, and then they had charges of being a
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sellout because they then did find great commercial success, which Vivid after touring for
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a while with the Stones and the Steel Wheels tour. So they yeah,
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they had to, they had to. They got it from all directions.
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They were kind of in the crosshairs for a lot of different people for a
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while, so it was kind of amazing that they broke through the way they
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did. One thing I didn't even know. Reading the book, I found
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out Doug Wimbish is a local guy who lives here in Connecticut where I'm from,
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and I know that he eventually and is still their bassist, but I
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didn't know he had that role. I didn't know he was recording with Mick
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at the time and suggested, like, hey, Miko check or. Mick
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came to him and said, what's up with this band Living Colored, and
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Doug was like, yeah, man, go check him out. That I
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did not know. That's pretty cool. And then he ends up being their
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bassist. Yeah. Yeah. An interesting quote from Corey Glover, the lead
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vocalist, regarding where the band was at when they went into the studio to
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record Times Up. He told you quote, despite the success on the outside,
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that wasn't what was happening on the inside. What was happening on the
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inside at that time. I think a lot of that is about a kind
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of basic work ethic and also when they this is a band with a really
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strong work ethic and you know, a very quick side story. Greg Drew,
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Corey's vocal coach. I interviewed him for this book and he had a
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lot of great stories. And one of the stories that didn't make it into
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the book was, you know, early on when he was working with them,
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he was staying, you know, in a hotel while they were on
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the road, and um, you know, they got him a hotel room
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and he's a very humble guy, so he was just like oh and it
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was like this really nice, you know, kind of sweet kind of situation
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and um and it was right next to Vernon, and he was like,
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oh, I don't know that this should be for me, This should be
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for somebody else. They're like, oh, no, no, no,
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it's for you. But it turns out that it was for him because he
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was right next to Vernon and Vernon practiced his guitar. Oh my love,
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know like you went to the wee out. That's like a true guitarist.
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I got true guitar. Yeah, and it was just it was just incessant,
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and so you know, that told me a lot also about you know,
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just like Vernon's work ethic, the band's work ethic, Corey, you
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know, you learn a lot about him with a vocal coach and how hard
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he works on his voice, which is an incredible voice still, and I'm
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sure a lot of that training has something to do with why he still has
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an incredible voice. So someone his work ethic. But also I think it's
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important to kind of keep in mind their identities as black people. And you
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know, I mentioned that they all kind of have middle come from middle class
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backgrounds, and that does afford them did afford them a certain amount of privilege
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growing up. And certainly, you know, if you're if you're selling millions
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of copies of your album, you have a certain kind of privilege at that
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point. But Vernon has also told stories about in the in like the you
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know, the peak of their success that goes, you know, and they're
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signing autographs and stuff, and there was one particular time where Vernon simultaneously trying
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to hail a cab, you know, while signing autographs and can't get a
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cab. So I think this is a band that was always just keenly aware
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of their identity. That's you know, intersectional. If they're not just rock
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stars that are that are that are enjoying success, they also are black and
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their black men in the late eighties early nineties, which is like a really
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low point for race relations in New York City in particular. So I think
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what that's where that's coming from. Corey's really talking about. You know,
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they never felt like they could just wrest on their laurels. They never felt
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like they were done and Okay, we did it and now we're just going
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to be here. That that was not how they operated. They still had
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something to prove. Yeah, absolutely, and would I would think too.
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The label probably was expecting a Vivid Part two. But what we get is
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not that. I mean, there's there's there are songs that are similar to
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the vibe or the sound of that first album, but man, they take
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some chances on this. And drummer Will Calhoun told you the band they throw
15:46
things out there to challenge themselves and see what happens. So I asked you,
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now, what are the moments on this album that really stand out to
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you in terms of that mindset? Like the musical challenges that really pay off.
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Yeah, I mean they're just they're just so many. But I think,
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you know a couple of things that I really enjoy, you know.
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I think, you know, the collaborations and having people on their like Dougie
16:11
Fresh and Queen Latifa, you know, and Macio Parker, like these are
16:17
people who are not normatively associated with rock, and I think that that was
16:25
something that that was kind of them not just settling into what they did before.
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I mean, again I said, I do like Vivid. I think
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it's a good record, but I think it's a very kind of mainstream rock
16:37
record that was very familiar and legible to like people who like metal and people
16:44
who like hard rock. I don't think it was like super challenging for the
16:48
listener who likes that kind of music. Again, great record, but I
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don't think it. I think it was a mainstream rock record. I think
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Times Up is different in the sense that you do have these moments where the
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group is expanding ideas about what rock is. And this is something that Muzz
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talked about in the book, and we talked about stuff, you know,
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stuff that didn't make it into the book, but just the whole thing about
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genre and what they were doing and being really conscious about wanted to adhere to
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the conventions of rock but not wanting to be stifled by it and expanding what
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rock is. So, yeah, you can have Queen Latifa on your record,
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but that doesn't mean that it's not a rock song still, you know.
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And I think that white rock bands have historically gotten a pass with that
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kind of stuff and have been allowed to kind of think of I'm thinking Blondie
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here, one of my favorite bands. I mean, goodness knows, no
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one ever said, oh, it's Blondie, not a rock band, I
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mean, you know, and they were doing everything from reggae to hip hop
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to disco to everything, right, kiss got to do a disco song,
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you know, well so to the Stones, right. So I just think
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that Living Color was doing stuff like that. I think they got punished for
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that actually with the second record. But that's some of the broad strokes.
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But also, Elvis is Dead is another song that I think takes some really
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interesting chances, you know, and some of that wasn't planned, right.
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So with Live a Little Richard in particular, you know, he decided that
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he wanted to do a rap and you know, in that middle in the
18:25
in the chorus instead of singing the chorus, and that was not something that
18:29
was planned, you know, he just wanted to do that, and it
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was just like, well, it's a little Richard, so he can do
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whatever he wants to do it. And it really, I think worked well.
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And I always really appreciate, appreciated, and continue to appreciate just how
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clever that song is in terms of taking chances, because you know, you've
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got a song about Elvis, and particularly a song about kind of delusional Elvis
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fandom, and of course that undercurrent of you know, Elvis is the king
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of rock and roll and questioning that and appropriation and stuff. But then you've
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got little Richard, right, an architect of rock and roll, who's on
19:08
the record, who's rapping, And then you've got Mick Jagger. So that
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breakdown has a whole bunch of different voices saying, yes, Elvis is dead,
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right. I was listening closely for Mick when I read the book I
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had there. I think that's yeah, mix in there is dead, you
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know. So I just always thought, okay, yeah, that's like another
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one of those let's, you know, let's just try some stuff and see
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what Happens or like New Jack with like the House, it's kind of like
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a house. It's like metally house music. You know, they just threw
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a lot of really interesting things into the mix, and I think it made
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for a bold and confident and really interesting record. Yeah. That who was
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the one that was on the elevator with Little Richard? Was it Vernon?
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Corey? Corey and he's just like, okay, little Richard standing next to
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him. Well. The opening track is also interesting too, because it's this
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is it's punk, it's bad brains. This was Corey Glover's a chance to
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sing a punk rock song, his lyrics addressing the environmental issues that are going
20:12
on at the time. He did his vocals in one take, and he
20:15
was serious about being in one take. He left the building after recording his
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vocals. Yeah, now that's the why I love that. It was one
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of my favorite stories. Also, Greg Greg Drew came with all the great
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stories he really did. He's got a ton of them, he does.
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But yeah, I mean I love that. I love that so much.
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And you know, Corey was telling me that, Yeah, he always wanted
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to sing a punk rock song. It was just a dream of his and
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and also he just felt like he wanted to do it in a punk rock
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way and he's not going to do a bunch of takes and make it pretty.
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He's just going to do it one time and whatever it is is what
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it is. And I'm always amazed when I listen and remember that because it
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sounds freaking awesome. Yeah, but that was one day. Yeah, and
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Pride was a track that was Will Calhoun's baby. This is interesting too because
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I noticed I always thought maybe Corey wrote all the lyrics and then the music
21:11
was all maybe Vernon coming to them. But everybody plays a role in here
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and on Pride, Will Calhoun he talked about the origins of the song.
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This dates back to his junior high days right lyrically, Yeah, yeah,
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it was stuff he had note books and he you know, one of the
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things I love about this song, and of course you know, it wasn't
21:30
lost on me when I was interviewing them, was just like how timely this
21:34
song is and how it's still like so much of this, so much of
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the lyrical content on this record is still current and of current contemporary relevance.
21:45
And you know, he's Will is somebody who grew up in an afrocentric home.
21:52
He you know, had a sense of all like black people's accomplishments across
21:59
the dice Laura as a kid. And so he would go to school and
22:03
he would know things about what black people have accomplished that you know, his
22:08
friends didn't know and and and sometimes his teachers didn't know. And so you
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know, I think that was you know, frustrating experience for him at times.
22:19
And so we had all these note what notebooks kind of I would imagine
22:23
complaining about that or you know, addressing that, and he found some of
22:29
this stuff and between that and I think his frustration with the media and not
22:37
everybody in the media, but you know, a fair number of writers really
22:41
did, you know, home in on this question of black people, black
22:48
men playing rock music, and you know that was frustrating for him. So
22:53
it was just kind of like all of the frustrating things that he could kind
22:57
of put together in a song and you know, with the underlying message being
23:03
of you know, again his own pride, his own sense of the importance
23:08
of black people knowing their history, knowing where they really come from, knowing
23:15
where rock music comes from. And you know, this song was just all
23:19
about that and that's kind of yeah, Like the the glue holding it together
23:23
is this notion of the importance of black folks having pride, you know,
23:29
and who we are expect the unexpected. With Living Color. I saw them
23:33
at Toad's place in New Haven, Connecticut, and maybe it was early two
23:37
thousands, I can't recall, but they broke into this long instrumental was like
23:40
this jazz fusion thing and you could tell, like some people in the crowd,
23:44
like, what's going on, where's you know, where's cult of personality?
23:48
And right? But ever it was like you could tell it was like,
23:51
we're going to do what we want to do here, and we hope
23:53
that you follow us. And I think they've had a loyal following, you
23:56
know, all right up until this day. But that's the chance is that
24:00
they took. And one of my all time favorite Living Color songs is Broken
24:03
Hearts from Vivid and Vernon told you that Love Rears its Ugly Head is a
24:07
companion song to Broken Hearts. Can you share the story? Here's another great
24:11
Greg Drew story. Greg again Corey's vocal course. He's got to start about
24:17
a phone message from his girlfriend and it's tape to Corey's mic stand. Yes,
24:22
now I love that story too. Um. Yeah, so love Rears
24:26
is ugly Head. Yeah. So for Vernon, this was you know the
24:30
same woman who he falls in love with you first broken broken Hearts is the
24:36
is the ending, right and Lover's as ugly Head is the beginning. But
24:40
for Corey to get into the mindset of singing the song, um, Greg
24:45
Drew decided to use a little psychology. And apparently there was you know,
24:52
a young woman who was interesting, you know, I guess they were dating
24:56
but perhaps wanted to be a little more serious than Corey wanted to be.
25:03
Yes, yes here yeah, And so you know, this was a different
25:11
time. So messages were you know, written on little message pads and left
25:15
for people and the the you know from the studio, and um, apparently
25:19
this young woman called Corey and then Greg gave the message to Corey, and
25:25
Corey you know kind of like, wasn't that interested? And then but Greg
25:29
held onto it and then what is time to seeing loveris and suckly ahead.
25:33
He taped the message to his vocal stand and uh, you know, his
25:37
little mic stand, and um, and Corey was like, Okay, I'm
25:41
ready to sing the song Now, which I thought was hilarious. I love
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it. Greg Drew, is he's the mastermind? Is he still does he
25:48
still work with Corey as not not now, no, um, not at
25:53
this moment, but he worked from with him for a while beyond um the
26:00
first few records you know, and some of the theater stuff that he did.
26:04
A voice is a tough thing, and particularly as you age, which
26:07
is one of the reasons also why I continue to be so impressed by Corey's
26:11
voice, because his voice right now sounds amazing. Yeah, and he's not
26:15
mentioned when they talk about the singers who can still sing. He should be
26:18
the one, although he's not as old as as you know, he's not.
26:22
He's out there with like the make Jaggers and the Rod Stewarts and all
26:25
that. But still he's he's got it. Yeah, he's got standing voice,
26:29
right, and that is one of the things that is hard to maintain
26:34
into your fifties and sixties and beyond. Right, So I do think again,
26:38
as I said, that foundation was helpful. But the thing with with
26:41
Corey, and I don't think this made it into the book either, was
26:45
um, you know, Corey always had a great voice, like a great
26:49
tone and a great sounding voice. But in the beginning, like when he
26:55
was playing gigs with Living Color, he would blow his voice out after like
27:03
a show, in part because you know, it's a rock band and they're
27:07
loud, and I think Vernon was particularly loud, and so he would do
27:15
the show and he would sound great, but then he couldn't sing for like
27:21
a week, and that wasn't going to work right. So that's one of
27:26
the things that prompted him not to make his voice sound better, but for
27:32
it to become stronger and for it to be something that he can sustain night
27:37
after night, a couple of times the night if he had to, over
27:41
a really long period of time. And so that's what that's what happened,
27:45
and that's you know, and because to sing the way he does, and
27:48
to sing over a very very loud rock band, that's not easy in order
27:56
to perform at that high level. The vocal coach a lot. The book
28:00
Down Rock Podcast will be back after this someone like you. Bassist Muzz Scullings,
28:07
he explained to you what was behind the word song for each chorse.
28:10
So the words are exactly the same, but he wanted them to have a
28:12
different meaning each time the listener hears it, can you expand on that?
28:17
What did he mean by that? Yeah, now that's a that's a good
28:21
question. Yeah, I mean, you know, he he wants the song
28:26
to be I mean, clearly it's about police brutality and the potential that gets
28:36
snuffed out when you know, young people are are murdered, you know,
28:41
before their time. And so he was really interested in having some ambiguity with
28:48
the song and allowing the audience to listen to that chorus and kind of think
28:55
about all of the different ways that's someone and and not only interpret what those
29:02
words mean, but also react to those words and decide a course of action
29:06
as a result of what's going on. And he never wanted to feed the
29:11
meaning to the listener, but he wanted the listener to contemplate right while listening,
29:18
Like, Okay, what is the best way to handle you know,
29:22
this assault on black people's bodies? Like what is the best way to handle
29:29
this? And what does it mean? It's never too late to change your
29:32
ways? Like what does that actually mean? It's never too late to change
29:36
your ways if you are somebody who's brutalizing people, It's never too late to
29:41
change your ways. If you are thinking about taking a course of action,
29:45
that's some sort of retribution that's violent. Yeah, like what is it like?
29:48
He just didn't want to tell the listener. He wanted the listener to
29:52
come up with that themselves. Now, some of the sonic approaches to the
29:59
song, like type and muzz scullings. Again we go back to him.
30:04
He went into detail in the book about how the guitar and the bass lines
30:10
were sounding identical, so as a result, the bass wouldn't be heard as
30:15
much. So he comes up with a solution. I'm going to read this
30:18
quote and this is I love this, he says. I use my Eventide
30:22
harmonizer H three thousand B and the TC Electronic twenty two ninety together got into
30:27
it. It's an amazing effects unit. Basically, the song was created with
30:32
five tracks of bass. In fact, most of the album has five tracks
30:34
of bass, two stereo effects, chorus, reverb, a little bit of
30:40
delay, and two amped signals, not stereoamp, but two separate bass amplifier
30:45
signals, each delayed enough milliseconds to create the house effect, which is when
30:51
you perceive that you're hearing stereo when it's not really there. But the brain
30:53
tricks itself. Wow. Yeah, I mean what was that experience, like
31:00
you interviewing the members type of stuff. These guys are amazing musicians, but
31:04
I'm thinking you had to be like, wow, this is some yes,
31:07
serious stuff here. Yeah. Now, um, any stand out quotes from
31:12
you regarding like the nuts and bolts of the music like that? No,
31:15
thank you, thank you for asking that question, because you know, I'm
31:18
not a musician, and I'm you know, I'm I'm I'm a writer and
31:23
um somebody who is a scholar of popular music studies and historic music history.
31:30
But I'm not a musician. So you know, I was very upfront about
31:34
that, and you know, so I kind of what the way I handled
31:38
it was, let like making it really clear that I wanted the band members
31:45
to share what it was that was important to them about the music and how
31:51
they wanted to share it. It was interesting because I did also interview ed
31:55
Stasium, the producer of the record, and Paul Hammingson Hammingson engineer, and
32:00
Dennis Steinman, Vernon's guitar tech, and so I had a lot of kind
32:07
of technical people that I was talking to. But at Stadium is somebody who
32:13
would say himself that he wasn't somebody who took a super super technical approach to
32:20
what he was doing. A lot of it was feel and he has just
32:22
like an incredible feel. Paul Hammingston as the engineer was a little more nuts
32:28
and bolts and technical when we were talking. Muzz Skillings was extremely technical when
32:32
we were talking, and that was what was value to him, Like,
32:36
that's what he really wanted to talk about the most, was the music and
32:38
the sounds and how he got the sounds Oology, you know, he really
32:43
wanted to talk about Oology, which is of course a really interesting little short
32:47
piece. Yeah, three instrumental pieces all together, yeah, and you know,
32:54
and all bass and just these incredible bass sounds and tones, and so
33:00
he really really wanted to talk about that, like that was what that was
33:05
what he was interested in in in discussing. So I was happy, happy
33:08
to do that and happy to ask questions and to make sure that I said
33:14
he was talking about and it was great. And I also, you know,
33:17
and in Vernon, by the way, I had to prompt him more
33:22
to talk about that stuff. That's not actually what Vernon's most interested in talking
33:24
about. He's really interested in talking about culture and the historical context of things
33:30
and the lyrics and the sounds. But he's not like, he wasn't as
33:36
interested in talking about the heavy technical aspects of what he did. I really
33:39
actually had to pull that out of him more. Wow, that's surprising.
33:43
Usually gets that's what they love talking about, at least for this book.
33:46
And you know, I'm not going to make a unilateral comment that he's not
33:51
interested in that in general, but for this book, he was really not
33:54
as focused on the heavily technical aspects of his playing, and he was much
33:59
more interested in talking about Yeah, like the people and his experiences and what
34:06
the song's mean and where he was from a historical context, or what was
34:13
going on with him when the songs were being made and when the band was
34:16
coming up, And yeah, he was. And he was also very very
34:20
forthcoming, as they all were, about his childhood. Kim Mack is our
34:24
guest. She's the author of the thirty three and a third book on Living
34:27
Colors, Times Up, which is out now. And by the way,
34:30
I didn't realize these guys are big Rush fans. To type was a nod
34:32
to their love of Rush, as is the following track Information Overload and Fight
34:38
The Fight very personal song for Corey. A quote he gave you, he
34:44
said, quote every aspect of my life has been in a struggle to change
34:46
the system. What are your thoughts on Corey as a lyricist, as an
34:52
artist, and what was your impression of him after interviewing him. Yeah,
34:55
I mean, you know, Corey is and somebody who had spent And I
35:04
think some of this didn't actually make it into the book either. It's either
35:07
short books. So one of the hardest things about writing this book, and
35:10
this is the this is my second book, and I've written a lot of
35:14
other short pieces, and I would say this is the most challenging thing I've
35:17
ever written for a whole number of reasons. But one of the hardest things
35:22
was just in all the interviews, I had about twenty hours of interview material,
35:27
and like, I don't even know how much made it in like,
35:30
not a whole lot comparatively so. But he you know, he talked about
35:36
growing up, you know, in an activist family and marching with you know,
35:39
family members and from a young age, and so for him, this
35:46
marrying of music and art and politics was not He didn't have to be sold
35:54
on that. You know that that just made a lot of sense to him
35:58
given how he was raised. And so yeah, I know he's an incredible
36:04
writer. I think, you know, you really see that with Times Up.
36:07
You know, that's just his I think, you know, just the
36:12
words behind this wake up call about the environment, you know, are great,
36:19
and he's also you know, just very serious minded, like really all
36:22
the members of Living Color. I mean, I think that's something that comes
36:25
through in this book, I hope is just you know, in all the
36:30
ways that they probably grew tired of having to talk about race and social justice
36:38
type issues and also their race in terms of the music they're playing. As
36:44
much as all of that must have been tiring, I really can't think of,
36:49
like for better equipped people to have done that work, because they were
36:54
just so good at it. You know, this again back to what I
36:58
was saying before about you know, they were again a band who was experiencing
37:04
commercial success, but they were experiencing this success personally at a time when black
37:10
people in New York City, in the United States in general, but in
37:15
New York City in particular, we're really having a hard time. I Mean,
37:17
it was you know, the time of trickle down economics and Reagan and
37:23
you know all of the war, the war on drug stuff that led to
37:27
mass incarceration. I mean, it was just you know, the crack epidemic.
37:30
I mean, there's just like a lot going on that was really rough
37:32
on black communities, and they were perfect at talking about this stuff and it
37:39
was necessary and important that they were there. So I think that Corey is,
37:45
you know, much like the rest of the band, like really really
37:49
thoughtful, obviously super you know, intelligent, but also just like not just
37:54
opinionated, but really a lot of their comments and thought and conversations around these
38:00
issues were informed, like, you know, with real like reading and you
38:07
know, solid educational um you know, underpinning, not just like random opinions.
38:14
You know, they were they were they were really speaking from both experience,
38:19
lived experience, and also education. And I almost forget too. He
38:23
was his a good actor, Yes, that was he Actually that was his
38:29
first career choice was acting yet yeah, but then music became you know,
38:34
his his although he's doing both at the same time. I remember he was
38:37
in his platoon. I think he's in yes, right, yeah, Solace
38:42
of You. That's probably my my favorite from the album, and he told
38:45
you it was influenced by South African music. Greg Drew. Here we go
38:50
with another Greg Drew story. You could write a whole book on Greg Drew.
38:52
He talked to you about Corey's vocals on the track and there's a moment
38:55
when Shanad O'Connor's nothing Compares to You video came on and that would influence Corey.
39:01
This is when he's taking another crack at the vocals. So this is
39:05
the second time around. Yeah, So I mean, you know, and
39:07
this is something that you know, again, the the original motivation behind working
39:15
with Greg was about you know, strengthening the voice and being able to have
39:21
it m be at full power over a sustained amount of time. But you
39:27
know, in time, I think Greg also was able to just you know,
39:31
help with songs, you know, like as they were being constructed and
39:37
you know, in Corey's contributions to the song and so with Solace of You,
39:43
you know, he had done a take that was that was good.
39:45
As Greg put it from his perspective, it was good, like it was
39:47
fine, but it wasn't like great, but it was good and he thought
39:52
it could be better and he was trying to express what it is that he
40:00
felt like needed to happen for the votes, for the vocals to kind of
40:04
open up, and he was watching MTV and you know then nothing Compares to
40:09
You video and the way he explained it to Corey was some singers, you
40:16
know, they're like it's like a like a hose that they're sprang out and
40:22
they're kind of I think what he means by that metaphor is, you know,
40:27
it's like the vocals are going out and they're kind of like more like
40:30
an assault or more like um, you know, perhaps even a distances the
40:36
audience a little bit, you know, but some vocalists bring you in and
40:42
it's like they're giving you a big hug. As the way he put it,
40:45
and Nothing Compares to You was that and he was basically seeing the Corey
40:50
that that's what you want to go for that right there and it connected.
40:53
It clicked. Corey did another take in it and it was beautiful, nailed
40:59
it. Yeah, And that Vernon told you that the last track on the
41:02
record is the most important song on the album and that's this is the Life.
41:07
Can you talk about why Vernon feels that way and also what Corey had
41:10
to say about his emotional connection to the song. I think, for for
41:15
Vernon, this song is important because of it's it's it's it's portability. You
41:22
know, it's something where I mean, it's my favorite song on the record,
41:25
and you know it I always feel like it's like a nice book in
41:30
So the way the record starts, of course is Times Up, which is
41:35
this like, you know, kind of loud wake up call about you know,
41:40
the environment. But we could also say it's a wake up call.
41:44
The whole album is called times Up, right, so it's just a wake
41:45
up call to all of these all of these different issues, right, and
41:49
all of the all of the things that we need to be thinking about as
41:52
humans, and um, this is the Life always feels like at the end
41:57
is kind of like a settling down of like, you know, okay,
42:01
now we're all together. Now, we're all listening. Now we're all paying
42:05
attention, and let's talk about you know, these things that make us all
42:10
human and connect us. And This is the Life is something that I feel
42:15
like is a very universal message of we have a path that we're walking down.
42:21
We are who we are. Yes, we can grow and we can
42:23
change, and we have some impact on you know what happens in our life,
42:29
but we also are in the bodies we're in, and we're in you
42:32
know, we have the you know, whatever circumstances we have or whatever personalities
42:38
we have, often those are not going to change that much, and so
42:42
it's kind of like, how do you accept who you are and the life
42:45
you have and love the life you have. Also what's so wonderful about that
42:51
song and why I think Vernon likes it so much too, is that it's
42:55
really speaking to these other universal things that are just going to happen. And
42:59
these were like young you know, when when Vivid came out, Vernon was
43:02
thirty, but everyone else in the band was like twenty four. You know,
43:06
he's like young people. But you know, eventually you're you know,
43:09
loved ones are going to die, you know, and you know, and
43:14
you know you're not gonna have all of the things that maybe you thought you
43:17
wanted, you know, at the end. You know, so it's like
43:20
you have to make peace with this life. And that song always has been
43:24
very meaningful to me personally also as somebody who's always been a bit of a
43:30
striver and just wanting things to kind of hurry up. And happen, and
43:35
that song has always kind of settled me down and gotten me through stuff.
43:38
And also the way Vernon put it, which I think is great, is
43:43
that that song for him is something that's like always there and always consistent,
43:49
and it's and it was there when the band was on the top. It
43:53
was there when, as he put it, the grand Parade moved on,
43:57
which I thought was of course typical really Quinn Vernon. And it was there,
44:02
you know, when the band loved each other, when the band was
44:06
fighting, and it was there when Greg Tate, his dear friend, was
44:10
there was alive. And also it's here still now that Greg Tate is not
44:15
with us anymore. So I think those are the reasons why. But then
44:19
you know, and then also Cory, we had had a conversation I didn't
44:23
make it into the book about our shared sense of alienation at times being rock
44:30
fans in white scenes, white rock scenes, and and I talked about,
44:37
you know, because I never, like, I don't know, I didn't
44:40
have my hair it colored a certain way, or I wasn't always I didn't
44:45
have like a uniform that I guess, and also my skin color. You
44:47
know, it was like a whole bunch of things and being you know,
44:51
a young girl too. I think it was like a lot of things where
44:53
people would always be surprised, like when they found that I liked rock,
44:55
Oh you don't look like you'd like rock kind of thing for like all these
45:00
reasons. And Corey also could relate to that, so that song also spoke
45:06
to him in this you know, accepting kind of the body you're in and
45:13
the things that might not be legible to somebody else, but it makes you
45:15
you. So. Yeah, they both I think found a lot of personal
45:22
resonances in that song. Yeah. I love that they recorded it in complete
45:28
darkness. Yeah, so next time you listen to that song, whoever's listening
45:31
now, imagine those things in complete darkness. Yeah, that's that's cool.
45:37
Producer Ed Stasium, He told you that Time's Up is truly the only masterpiece
45:42
that he ever worked on because of its fluency from beginning to end, how
45:45
the songs intertwine, and how the lyrical messages have not lost their relevance since
45:50
its release over thirty years ago. Great example is that last track, How
45:53
would you best describe this album to somebody maybe who hasn't heard it at all
45:59
or it's been a long time since SAVE listened to it, you know.
46:01
I think I would describe it as an album that if you listen to it
46:09
right now, in twenty twenty three, it sounds fresh. I mean every
46:13
time I listened to it, it doesn't feel dated to me. It doesn't
46:17
sound old. It sounds like it could have been made this year, in
46:24
part because of the I think the fluidity between the different categories of music.
46:31
I think artists do that more now than what was happening in the late eighties
46:37
or early nineties. So I would say this is a record that's going to
46:42
sound kind of familiar in some ways to you, and sonically it's not going
46:47
to be like, oh this is old or whatever. Also, I would
46:52
say it's just a fantastic record in terms of the level of musicianship, the
46:58
level of Corey vocals, and just the songs themselves. I think the songcraft
47:05
on all of them are you know. So I think it's like a consistently
47:08
strong record. I don't think there's a weak track on that record. And
47:14
then I would say from a lyrical standpoint, for better for worse, probably
47:19
for worse, so much of it again could have been written right now you
47:22
know, history is alive, that they teach you in school a fraudulent view
47:25
called the Golden Rule. I mean, you know, when I hear those
47:30
lyrics, I think about all of the kind of you know, panics around,
47:35
you know, in Case through twelve, around critical race theory and banning
47:37
books and all the stuff. It's like, you know, I think about
47:42
that when I hear that song Time's up. Yeah, Corey was sounding an
47:46
alarm, but now the environment is worse, you know, like we didn't
47:52
listen to the alarm. You know, information overload. It's kind of predicting
47:55
the chaos of the Internet and you know and social media. Yeah, this
48:00
is the life. You could also think about it in terms of social media
48:04
and you know what young people are kind of dealing with in terms of you
48:08
know, they've been studies about young girls in particular, and how detrimental the
48:15
internet has been for young teenage girls on their self esteem, on their feelings
48:21
about their bodies and their in their physical attractiveness. It's just been terrible.
48:25
So yeah, I think this is a record where I would say, for
48:29
somebody right now, we're young somebody right now. There's so many things on
48:34
there that you can listen to and get something out of even though it was
48:37
recorded more than thirty years ago. Do you know if they've played this album
48:42
and its entirety ever in concert, because that would be really cool. That's
48:45
a great question. I don't know the answer to that. They may have
48:49
when they had the tour, because I think they were touring like Staying.
48:52
You know, they just had the thirtieth anniversary of Staying this year, and
48:57
I don't know if they've played Staying in its entire already. But that's a
49:00
great question. I don't have the answer, but I could be surprised because
49:02
bands are doing that, which is a great idea. Yeah, and that
49:06
would be the perfect one to do because it's it's just love to hear that.
49:09
Yeah, timeless, timeless. Yeah, And I just I'm looking quickly
49:13
on Wikipedia. Apparently they are working on a new album hopefully. Is that
49:17
okay? So yeah, that'd be cool. They released Staying after that.
49:21
That was ninety three, Koaleidoscope two thousand and three. The Chair in the
49:27
Doorway, oh nine, that's the one I think that has Back in Black
49:30
on it. The cover of Back and Black. I think, yeah,
49:34
yeah, Chair in the Doorway might be the one. There's one they wrote
49:37
about nine to eleven which is so powerful, flying you know that one and
49:43
Shade twenty seventeen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to see some
49:47
new music from those guys. Well, the book is out now. It's
49:51
times up part of the thirty three and a third series. It's out through
49:53
Bloomsberry Books and available wherever books are sold. And where can people find you
49:58
online? Kim? Yeah, you can find me at kimberlymac dot com,
50:02
k I M b e r o y m ac k dot com. And
50:07
I'm just finishing up a book tour. I actually been on a national book
50:12
tour, mostly Midwest, but also I was in New York and Chicago.
50:15
I will be in Los Angeles on June twenty third at book Soup and and
50:22
then there's also a chance there'll be some other dates that are coming up in
50:27
in September. I'm hoping to possibly do something with Vernon, so we're talking
50:32
about that. So yeah, so you know, just go to my website
50:37
and you'll see what's up. Yeah. How nice is it to be part
50:39
of this series, the thirty three and a third series. Yeah, I'm
50:44
I'm thrilled. That was a bucket list thing for me for sure. I
50:47
can imagine. Yes, Kim, thank you so much. This was great.
50:51
Thank you, thank you again for having me. That's it. It's
51:02
in the box.