Latest / The Strategic Pause / What Do Organizations Get Right With Leadership?
Transcript
- Katrina Kennedy: Hello, my friends. Welcome to the strategic pause. This is episode 10. And this is the episode where we are going to explore what are organizations doing right when it comes to leadership. So Jill, I love this too. You spend a lot of time in organizations that are rolling out leadership programs. Jill Parish: episode 10. I love it. Katrina Kennedy: and in a variety of different ways. So just the, let's just answer the question ⁓ in a short form and then we'll dig in deeper. Yeah. So what are organizations doing right when it comes to rolling out leadership programs? Jill Parish: They do. ⁓ okay. well, first I would say if an organization is looking to invest in their people with leadership skills, I mean, that's number one thing they're doing right. There's, there's a lot of need for it. There's not a lot of investment in other areas of our life. For example, higher education, as far as leadership goes. So step one is an organization is willing to at least look at. investing in their folks in leadership skills. So, yay. mean, first of all, yay to any organization that is doing that. Truly, I want to give them a lot of accolades. You said quickly, so I don't know if I can answer this quickly, but I guess step. Katrina Kennedy: I knew what I was asking for, though. Jill Parish: Okay, yeah, I think step two would be getting some sort of expertise that had some sort of external view. ⁓ And we can dig into that if you want to. ⁓ Let me stop there and let me see what questions you have from there. How's that? Katrina Kennedy: Okay, okay, no, I think those are perfect. So the two things that they are actually investing in leadership and they are ⁓ getting some type of external expertise coming in. So they're not necessarily creating the program themselves. So you said an interesting thing and I think we need to highlight this. You mentioned that Jill Parish: Right. Right. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: people are not getting leadership development in higher education. So if people aren't, if organizations aren't investing in leadership and people aren't getting it through their educational journey, whatever that looks like, where are leaders getting their knowledge and skills to lead? Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that is the million dollar question. So the most often ⁓ reason I end up getting called in is because some variation of an organization saying we have a lot of people who were good at their XYZ technical role. And so they got promoted and now they're really sort of struggling in the supervisory role or managerial role. So that's probably the most common thing I hear. I hear it across every industry. Legitimately, it does not matter if you are an attorney, if you are an engineer, if you are a shelter worker at an animal shelter, it truly is pretty much the same. So. That's generally when I get called in. If there is nothing in the organization, the only possibility for that person is if they have a good manager or a good person they can watch and learn from, and they have that kind go-getter attitude that they want to learn more, they could potentially get the skills that way. So that's twofold, right? They have to A, have somebody that is really good that they have access to and B, have the attitude or aptitude that they want to get better and that they want to build those skills. And frankly, ⁓ sorry. Yes. Frankly, I mean, Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, and those are two kind of roll of the dice. No, no, no, go ahead. And frankly, go for it. Jill Parish: it's pretty uncommon to have really strong middle managers who understand how to act in that sort of mentor role so that they're not only managering, but managering, leading, but they're also showing people how to lead as well. So that is more rare than we would think. The other thing, And again, I could talk forever, so you're gonna maybe have to cut me off at some point. There's a lot of people who just don't even recognize that leading others is a skill that needs to be built or that can be built. So maybe they don't have a good manager. Maybe they do have an aptitude for developing themselves, but if they don't even recognize that's really a skill that they need to invest in and get better in, again. that's gonna have a rough go. Katrina Kennedy: So there are a lot of parts I'm hearing and one of those big ones feels like there's a large element of self-awareness. And if you don't have that self-awareness, you don't have a good manager as your example, you don't have maybe time, resources, wherewithal to do the exploration on your own. Jill Parish: Yes. Yes. Katrina Kennedy: So organizations are really like leaving it up to kind of the roll of the dice. Like, we're going to try our best. Jill Parish: Yep, absolutely. Katrina Kennedy: And so there's a whole cascading effect, I would think, in organizations. Like if you don't have good leaders, then you're not gonna have good leaders. So that's where that expertise comes in. So let's talk about the organizations that you have worked with that you think are doing it best. Because anybody, as we know, can bring in a training. Anybody can go, know, there are lots of organizations that offer leadership training. What's happening in those that are really getting the most impact out of their investment? Jill Parish: Yep. Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the things I think is really helpful is, is investing in this before the ship is going down. So not waiting until there's a huge crisis in order to say, Hey, you know, let's, let's work with our folks here and try to increase their leadership skills or whatnot. So I would say that's one of the first things is being aware that there's, there's some need for skill development before things are. really terrible and on fire. And the next thing, the reason I say, you know, get an external perspective is not because there aren't really phenomenal people inside organizations that know this stuff. And there are, and I was one for many years, I was an internal leadership development facilitator within a large organization. So I don't mean to say that those folks cannot build a program, cannot facilitate, they can. I think the challenge comes is when we are in an organization, we have kind of a sheltered view of what the organization is, does, looks like. And we tend to have a little bit of, ⁓ lose the ability maybe to kind of see the bigger picture and like what out, what is out there in the rest of the world. And so I think when you get somebody who is working with multiple organizations, They are seeing the trends and they're seeing what's going on and they're understanding, you know, a different perspective and how to bring that into this organization and what might work and what might not work. And so the best combination is somebody strong internally and an external partner. So an organization that's like, okay, go do this now. Great. Like develop our leaders. ⁓ while I'm up for a challenge, that's going to be much more difficult than an organization that says, we have whoever, Raquel here, who's a really strong internal organizational development consultant who's going to work side by side with you. And that's really powerful. ⁓ The next thing of, and then I'll let you talk because I know. The next thing I would say, you thought you were going to get a word in edgewise. Katrina Kennedy: You Jill Parish: is looking broader and so saying, okay, we have this deficit or we think our leaders can be better. And if that is the case, what would that help us as an organization do? So is that we want to build more widgets? Is it we want to increase engagement? Is it we want to sell more, whatever it is? How can our leaders being better move us towards the direction of whatever it is our organization wants to do? Now I will pause. Katrina Kennedy: I just first of all have to say like my learning and development heart is happy because when we can tie something to an actual outcome in the organization, it always is going to be more successful. We are not just like doing this because it is the flavor of the month, which I think if we were to talk about the organizations where it doesn't go well, they're doing it because somebody else over here did it. ⁓ Jill Parish: You Yeah. Yeah. right Hmm. Right, right. Katrina Kennedy: I will never forget one of my first, first, first years and years ago ⁓ jobs as a facilitator. was doing a strategic planning retreat for an organization, a great organization. I loved working with them, had that partnership that you talked about, worked really closely with them. And, you know, in the nonprofit world at the time, everybody talks and their competitor found out that I, Jill Parish: Mmm. Katrina Kennedy: I had done the facilitation of their retreat. And so they reached out to me and said, will you facilitate our retreat? And I was like, sure. And it was such a different experience because they didn't want a partner. They just wanted to copy and paste and get the inside scoop, which you're not going to give. So you really do need that internal partner. Jill Parish: Okay. Mmm, yeah, right, right, yeah, yeah, right. Katrina Kennedy: someone who can speak the language, can tie it, give you some credibility. ⁓ And then you, as the external facilitator, external expert, you help support that internal person in the conversations that really probably aren't fair for them to have. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, totally. ⁓ And they have a window that I would never get as an external person. So I was on a client meeting a couple of weeks ago and somebody said, ⁓ Our folks are really tired of hearing the word collaboration. It's everywhere. They're tired of it. And I'm like, that's super helpful, right? Because that's something I would never know as an external person. And yet I use the word collaboration all the time. And so I would have the potential to lose them in the very beginning, just by using that one simple word. And so that's really why that partnership becomes incredibly helpful. And then to your point, Katrina Kennedy: Great. Jill Parish: you know, when they're trying to move something forward in their organization, I can be a resource for them and to, you know, help them, back them up and what they're trying to move forward. So it's. It's pretty powerful when it's done well. And I'm very, very fortunate. And I've some of my favorite people I've started at NAP partnership, like they were originally clients or their clients right now. And we've become pretty close just because you're working together a lot and you really are. It really is sorry organization. It's a great collaboration, right? It's really great to have that relationship. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. I was, I'm curious and every organization has a different budget. have different requirements, but, let's talk about. Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Katrina Kennedy: what the commitment looks like. Because I, I, I, we both have probably had the organizations that have reached out to us, whether it was, you know, training trainers in my world or, you know, training leaders in your world. You know, some organizations that are like, we've got 90 minutes, let's get this done. You know, versus, you know, a longer, larger program. So what's kind of the, what have you found is like the ideal? What's that sweet spot? Jill Parish: Yeah. ⁓ so when I, when I left UC Davis, they gave me a shirt that said it depends with my name on it as my quote, because I say it depends more often than anything. ⁓ to your point, every truly, every client has different needs, different budgets, different availability. ⁓ Katrina Kennedy: Ha you Jill Parish: Sometimes I have clients who are like, want to do nine full day sessions in a row. And I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And sometimes I have clients who are like, we're thinking about 20 minutes twice a year and that should do it. Right. and so the, the kind of the art is figuring out, you know, they have real schedule constraints, they have real budget constraints, but I also don't want them to spend money on something that's not going to actually get any ROI. So. Katrina Kennedy: Please do. You Jill Parish: in a perfect world, I'm probably doing eight half day sessions spread over about six months. That's my, that's my probably perfect ideal world. Now, of course that's going to depend, right? What are we looking at? But if an organization is like, I want to do a basic leadership development program, that's probably where I'm at because it's longitudinal. So I have the ability or we have the ability to drip the content and we absolutely do because we know that for retention, we need to hear things multiple times and we need to hear them in different contexts. So we need to see things in this slide deck and we need to see it in this context. So we need to role play with it here. And so having that period of time sort of spread out allows us to do that. ⁓ But it's not so long that they're like, who are you again? And what did we do last time? And why are we here? And who's this guy next to me? Back at UC Davis, I ran a two-year program, but it was like two years and six sessions. And by the second year, they're like, I have any idea what we did in the beginning. And they couldn't tell me anything. So that's way too long. ⁓ So six months, eight sessions, that's my dream. Katrina Kennedy: That's your dream. So let's dream some more. Because I'm imagining. Yeah, I know you do. So I am also imagining. There's this, I'm gonna age them, this young, up and coming future leader who's listening right now. Jill Parish: This is my dream about. Okay, I like dreaming. Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Hello, future leader. Katrina Kennedy: Okay, which odds are probably low. I've seen the demographic of our podcast, but hello, future leader. We're here for you. Jill Parish: Don't tell them! ⁓ Okay, young future leader. Katrina Kennedy: And, and they were like, okay, I don't have young future leader. I don't have all of the things that Katrina and Jill have mentioned. What would be the key topics in those eight half days that you would cover? I know again, it depends. I've read the t-shirt. What? But Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, yeah. I'll have to wear it next time. Yeah. Yeah. I was literally about to say it depends without even being ironic. Katrina Kennedy: Generically, what would those be? I beat you to it. ⁓ Jill Parish: So, yeah. I don't even know how to answer this without saying, I can't answer this without saying it depends. So there are a few different ways we can look at this. How's that? Katrina Kennedy: Perfect. I didn't- I wasn't sure if we would laugh this episode, but I guess it's just built in. We just do. Jill Parish: ⁓ yeah, it's built in. It's built in. We could start with a program that looks at sort of self-awareness. So leading self and then moving towards leading others and then moving towards leading teams and then moving towards leading an organization. So that's one kind of path that I work with. And that would look maybe like we start with some sort of assessment. ⁓ personality assessment, disc, Myers-Briggs, CliftonStrengths, what have those, although I've learned about the Enneagram recently. ⁓ Then we, I I do love CliftonStrengths. That's another episode. could, ⁓ gosh, I could talk about that all day too. ⁓ And then we might look at, yeah, might be the first time people see us argue. ⁓ Katrina Kennedy: stay with CliftonStrengths. But that's another episode! as could I. Jill Parish: Then we look at emotional intelligence ⁓ and there may be looking at some sort of, okay, know, building trust with others. And then maybe we talk about conflict and then we may move into some sort of strategic thinking. We may move into accountability, ⁓ which you and I have talked about. ⁓ We don't use the word feedback anymore because it's like a bad word. So accountability and how do you talk through that? It may look like coaching, advisory, mentoring. And then we may move it into a commitment to results or change, organizational change, something along those lines. A lot of what I do is based on Patrick Lincione's books. I'm a big Patrick Lincione fan. Katrina Kennedy: And for those who don't know that he wrote the five dysfunctions of a team. Jill Parish: So. Five dysfunctions of a team. Yeah. And then he has the five behaviors of high performing teams. So I find that framework to be very easy to kind of interpret and understand. And it hits with pretty much any industry. so, so sometimes we'll do more focused around that if we're talking just more about teams and less around leading yourself. ⁓ So all of that to say, depends. I would say that probably the most requested topic I get is conflict. ⁓ But as you know, you really can't have conflict without trust. So you can't really start at conflict. You have to start before conflict. But that's probably what I get requested most. Katrina Kennedy: That was going to be my next question because as I was taught years ago by the work of Peter Block that the presenting problem is never the problem. ⁓ I think it's easy if I had, well, I almost do have a dollar for every time somebody said it's team building. ⁓ Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Right, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Go to your impurements and then call me. Yes. Back the truck up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Katrina Kennedy: You know, we need team building. It's like, no, you don't need team building. Like, you don't even have a team. what? Exactly, exactly. This is one more time where we back the truck up, right? We'll make sure that we link to that episode for those of you who are like, I don't understand Back the Truck Up. ⁓ I love it. I love it. So I love the idea of starting with self-awareness because I think anything that we do when it requires interaction with other people starts there. ⁓ Jill Parish: Yeah, what does this mean? Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: Okay, so now selfishly, because you know, I wrote a book on reflection, learning that last just, you know, small plug. The yellow one. ⁓ I just, I just was ⁓ a guest on for a book club. Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. Let's talk about reflection. I have the yellow one. Katrina Kennedy: that invited me to have a conversation with them about the book. They were finishing Learning That Last and they called it the Yellow Bible. Yeah, but I feel like I can't say that at very many places out loud. So why am I saying it here? I don't know. Maybe we'll delete that part. ⁓ Jill Parish: Fun. Yeah, yeah, so just say it on a podcast where anybody can listen. But we'll keep it between ourselves. Don't worry. Don't say anything. Katrina Kennedy: It goes out into the world. And next episode I'll be sharing my social security number. There we go! Jill Parish: You and all the hate mail. Katrina Kennedy: probably out there already anywhere. That's right. The hate mail goes to Jill. All goes to Jill. ⁓ So we talked about, yeah, okay. So reflection, I did bring that up. So I should probably tie that in to my whole point. How do you weave reflection and that the importance of reflection for leaders through your programs? Jill Parish: Okay, so reflection. You One of my favorite Katrina Kennedy-isms is actually preflection. And that is something I did not do until I met you. So you are fully responsible for preflection. actually, it's funny we were just talking about conflict. I think preflection works incredibly well when I'm teaching and facilitating conflict. Because it's essentially, hey, Katrina Kennedy: Yay. Jill Parish: You know, conflict is one of those things that it really sort of depends on what you've grown up with and what your past is, how you show up to conflict. And that's not every leadership development skill, but conflict definitely is one of those. so using preflection, and I just have some very general questions and it's introverted time and you can just write. And it really, it's a time to think about, okay, when I even say the word conflict, what does that bring up? for you, is it bring up fear? Does it bring up annoyance? Does it bring up joy? don't know, whatever that comes. So that is definitely one of my favorite things I've incorporated as some preflection. ⁓ And then the other thing is, I mean, we do reflection at the end of every session and we ask them to tie it to something that they've learned prior. So. reflect on today, think about what we've done, how could you connect that to something else that we've done? ⁓ And so that's one piece. The other thing is, generally the last session, well, no, I take it back. The other piece is in the middle of every program, I do about 45 minutes of review and reflection on everything that we've done in the past. We have all of the different frameworks and they think about them and they think about and they usually get some to assign and like how have you used that? How could you use that? Yada, yada. And then the last session of every class is almost entirely reflection, ⁓ just in different formats. ⁓ And some of it's group reflection and some of it's introverted reflection and some of it's right on flip charts and some of it's staying in a small circle and. Katrina Kennedy: guys. Jill Parish: very different, but really the whole idea is giving them time to like, I'm not cramming any more content in, we're done with content. How can you think about what we've done and how can you take that forward? Because otherwise this was probably a really enjoyable time, but we want it to actually be a useful time for you and your organization. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. And I brought it up just not because I wrote a book about it, although, okay, self-serving a little bit, but it's such an important piece of any learning and especially for leaders. And I think we often don't, we don't emphasize that. And I think if we're practicing it in training as a skill, then they can transfer that. Jill Parish: Like a little bit, yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: into the workplace because it's going to be a really hard thing in the moment day to day to take that pause and and to think about what have I experienced and then tie it to to ⁓ what I'm going to do. I really think, you know, as as people are listening, I hope they're seeing how important the Jill Parish: Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: know, a longitudinal program becomes because I'm, you know, people go back to work, they get to try out the thing and they get to come back and have those conversations. They could probably read books on all of this. They probably could take a LinkedIn learning workshop on it and you watch it. And I think that one of the things that every organization who is is taking, making this investment Jill Parish: Yeah. Yes. Sure. Katrina Kennedy: One of the things they're getting is also creating a stronger organization by having everybody together. Yeah. Jill Parish: Totally, And I always say, you I cannot take credit. can only take credit for like a tiny portion of the learning, right? In these programs, because if you really watch and you really listen, an unbelievable amount of learning happens from participant to participant. And, and probably I don't want to say it's the more important learning, but it's very important learning. And that's not just a fun thing that's happened when, when that is, when that is orchestrated, it's really powerful. And so to hear. you from this part and you from this part ⁓ learning from each other. And then one of my favorite things is, you know, I hear like, ⁓ yeah, we worked on this together because I knew him from the program and so I knew to call him. And ⁓ Katrina Kennedy: Yes. Jill Parish: A shout out to Aaron Laurel. He's the city manager at city of West Sacramento. When we started this formal cohort program, he was very clear that part of his investment was truly to have an easier way for people to build relationships across the city. And he wanted this to be really, that to be a really important part of the program. And I just think that's really, that's very forward thinking because a lot of leaders that's They're like, ⁓ that's going to happen also. And he was very clear like, no, no, no, like that is what we want to be doing with this. And, it man, it sure has, it sure has. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. And, and I would guess if we were going to track that and connect it to, you know, conflict, even customer service satisfaction, you know, we probably can come up with like 10 different piece of data points and be able to show that a leadership program helps improve all of them. Yeah. Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, fully. mean, I truly think it does help the, know, whoever your organization is serving, it helps them for your organizational associates to know each other, that it helps their service, however you want to look at that. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, I think we forget. I think it's easy to forget in trying to get the work done, how difficult it actually is to bring a group of people together. and have them like all kind of moving in the same direction, supporting people in the same way. And I think that's where the work that that you do, the work that I do, really, the work that we do, really, really makes that happen together, collaboratively in a partnership. Jill Parish: Yeah, together. Yeah, together, collaboratively, in a partnership. We're like getting to know each other across the organization, just like right now. Katrina Kennedy: Well, Jill, thank you for a lovely conversation on what leaders, what organizations are doing well to make leadership work. So I appreciate you. You're welcome. Jill Parish: you I love it. Thank you. And I am truly, truly inspired every time I get to work with a new organization who really is willing to invest in their people. So if you're listening to this and you're an organization that has invested in your people, I appreciate you. And I think you're doing great things. So thank you. And thanks Katrina for interviewing me. Katrina Kennedy: You're welcome. You're welcome. Awesome. I will see you next time. Jill Parish: Alright, see you later!