Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 123 - Adam Mendelsohn - CEO Vivani Medical

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Episode 123 - Adam Mendelsohn - CEO Vivani Medical · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:06
  Welcome back to another episode of The Bio Hub, a podcast
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  brought to you by Avetics Talent Solutions.
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  Today I'm joined by Doctor Adam Mendelson, cofounder and CEO of
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  Vivani Medical. Adam's journey is a fascinating
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  one, from earning his PhD in bioengineering at UCSF and UC
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  Berkeley to Co founding Nano Precision Medical and now
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  leading Vivani following its merger in 2022.
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  At Vivani, Adam and his team are pioneering long term subdermal
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  drug implants designed to transform treatment for chronic
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  diseases like obesity and diabetes.
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  We talk about Vivani science, their mission, what's happening
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  right now and what it takes to build a biotech company through
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  today's market. Pleasure to have you, Adam.
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  How are you? I'm doing great, Max, and it's
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  really wonderful to be with you. Amazing.
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  Yeah, we obviously met at Bio. So this is Adam's second time on
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  the Bio hub, this time virtually.
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  Honored to be back. Yeah, it's great.
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  We can get a little bit more into the weeds as well about
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  your journey and what you've been doing.
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  So let's just start with that. Like what's your story and what
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  led you to Vivani and this mission?
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  It's a great question. And I think that from a very
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  young age, I had the opportunity to to become exposed to the
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  concept of developing new medical products and I think I
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  caught the bug. I knew that that's something
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  that I wanted to continue to do in some way, shape or form.
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  I did certainly didn't foresee me doing it in exactly the way
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  that that I am at the moment. But it's goes back to when I was
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  in high school and I had the opportunity to intern at a
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  medical device company called Mini Med, which at the time was,
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  I think it may still have been a private company.
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  I think it may have gone public at around that time and and
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  subsequently got got acquired for a few billion dollars by
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  Medtronic and is now actually being spun back out as
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  Medtronic's diabetes company, also to be called Mini Med.
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  So it's kind of full circle. But the company was working on
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  insulin pumps and glucose sensing technologies, and I had
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  the opportunity to see what a team of people that were focused
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  on innovating and developing a product that would solve an
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  unmet need of how that operated, how motivated the people were to
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  be doing their job, how their mind was in the right place.
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  You know, these these developments are difficult and
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  challenging. And I think that as a result, it
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  attracts people that are in it for the right reasons there.
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  There's not going to be a quick, you know, in six months, you're
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  going to develop something that's going to gain user
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  traction and you can have an exit in nine months.
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  That doesn't really happen in this industry.
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  So the people that choose to do this are are really their hearts
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  are in the right places. I then went on in part as a
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  result to study sciences, physics and and I I actually did
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  a piano performance major also, but that ended up not being my
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  career. Oh.
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  Amazing. Physics was the the the path,
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  the path that I thought would would best arm me with the
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  knowledge and the and the capabilities at addressing any
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  sort of development challenge. You know, physics is kind of the
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  foundation foundational science of a lot of the other sciences.
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  And you can. You can.
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  Pivot to many other specific areas with that sort of a broad
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  foundation. And I was at UCLA where I did my
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  undergrad. And during that time I, you
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  know, explored multiple different possible ways of
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  spending my life. I I did, I did.
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  I spent some time. Doing plasma physics research.
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  I spent a summer. At at.
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  Jet Propulsion Laboratory, JPL. And then I also spent some
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  summers with the same group that I had interned with at Mini Med.
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  They were at a different company now.
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  Developing implatable drug delivery technologies and that's
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  where I ended up landing after by my undergrad, spending a
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  couple of years working as an engineer developing, you know.
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  Components within these long term.
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  Implatable drug delivery pumps and but while.
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  While I was. There I realized that.
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  The approach and and there is one connection.
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  Between Mini Med and the company that I worked with and one of
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  the people that I've looked. To for inspiration throughout my
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  life. And that's an individual named
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  Al Man or Alfred E Man. This was a legendary medical
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  device entrepreneur who had founded these companies.
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  That I mentioned with. Who?
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  Who? I had the.
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  Opportunity. To get to know personally
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  because my father had been involved with organizing
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  financings for his companies. And he became a very successful
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  medical device entrepreneur working on products such as
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  insulin delivery for diabetes, cochlear implants for providing
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  hearing to deaf people, second sight medical products to
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  provide vision to people with profound blindness.
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  And he was very prolific in what he was able to accomplish, and
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  that definitely was. One of the guiding.
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  Guiding stars for me as I, as I developed at this company that
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  he had founded, I realized that we were working on and kind of,
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  it was definitely solving an unmet need, but it was in an
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  incremental way over what had been done before that.
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  And I worked with another individual who had had a
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  biomedical engineering PhD, which inspired me to go back and
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  do a PhD program, primarily in order to become aware of all of
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  the new technologies that were being developed, because I knew
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  I didn't want to become a professor or do research long
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  term. I wanted to come.
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  Back into the startup, you know, world developing new products,
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  but that would give me the time to really contribute to some
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  avenue of research, to understand how that research is
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  done at a deep level. And then also become aware of
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  everything that is being developed to try to make a more,
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  a less incremental and more transformational contribution
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  to, to the field. And while I was at the PhD
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  program, which I did at UCSF and and UC Berkeley, I involved
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  myself in all of the entrepreneurial organizations
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  across both campuses, participated in business plan
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  competitions. That's where my 2 Co founders of
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  Nano Precision Medical who were PhD lab mates of mine, you know,
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  we worked together, we ended up winning the UC Berkeley business
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  plan competition, international competition in Hong Kong.
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  And, and that's what gave us the confidence to start the company
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  once we finished the the PhD and the rest is history.
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  It's been, you know, a long journey to go from working in
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  really what was called the basement or the garage.
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  The QB 3 is the organization that facilitated our initial
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  start. And 1, you know, we had a couple
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  of desks and one bench, you know, in the shared room at the
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  basement of the bioengineering building on UC Berkeley campus.
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  And slowly but surely tinkering with and developing this novel
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  drug delivery technology. And now many years later, having
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  successfully tested it in humans earlier this year and, you know,
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  excited about what we're doing with it going forward.
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  Yeah, I love the old story, in Vivani story.
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  I think it's really cool. From basement to where you are
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  now. Just the context for people who
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  don't know Bhavani, like who are you guys?
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  What are you doing? Yes, so, so we're working on
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  miniature subdermal implants that go under the skin that can
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  provide many months of therapy after a single administration.
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  These implants are being initially focused on the GLP,
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  one class of drugs which people have all probably heard of
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  Ozempic and Wegovi and Anjaro and Zepbound.
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  These are really big, very successful brands that have
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  their primary indications are in obesity or for chronic weight
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  management or type 2 diabetes. There are also other indications
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  that they have been receiving and are being evaluated for, but
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  the, the this class of drug is really transformational as far
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  as the ability to to provide compelling amounts of weight
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  loss in, in an acceptably, although still suboptimal
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  tolerable manner. And that's what has enabled this
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  transformation in obesity, you know, therapeutics.
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  I again, this is all become very mainstream now.
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  I think, you know, when I, when we were earlier in our
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  development and only thinking about the diabetes application,
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  I would have to tell people what a GLP one was.
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  I don't really have to do that anymore.
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  It's it's, it's pretty commonplace, but one of the big
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  problems is, you know, and this is not just the case for GLP one
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  drugs, but for really any chronic disease treatment is a
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  lot of people don't end up taking the medicine as
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  prescribed. So these incredible benefits and
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  advantages that these drugs are capable of that they've
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  demonstrated in clinical studies don't end up translating.
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  So in the real world, the general population doesn't
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  receive the benefits. And there are many reasons for
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  this, but one of the main reasons is medication non
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  adherence, you know, which is at even for really easy to take,
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  you know, pills, you know, that that can be taken with without
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  food. Certainly for injectables, it's
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  less than 50%, you know, generally Speaking of people
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  that actually take the medicine as prescribed on a regular
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  basis. So there's a lot of efficacy
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  that's left on the table In the case of GLP ones, not taking
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  medicine regularly also can result in more fluctuations in
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  the blood levels because when you miss a dose, the blood
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  levels go down and then it comes back up when you take a dose.
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  And it's it. These fluctuations are are what
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  are believed to be responsible for the gastrointestinal side
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  effects, which is the biggest complaint associated with this
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  drug class nausea, vomiting, you know, you know, diarrhea and
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  things like that. So, So what we're hoping is to
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  be able to one, provide a, a much more convenient solution
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  for people that can essentially set it and forget it for the
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  duration of, of, of the of the implant treatment.
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  And then also at the same time addressing providing people with
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  more effective treatment than they would if they had been
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  missing doses and potentially more tolerable treatment as
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  well. So really excited about this in
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  the GLP one class, also recognizing that it is a
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  platform technology that while we're, you know, initially
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  testing it out for this drug class, we think could be could
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  be applied more broadly. And we look forward to doing
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  that, you know, in the years to come.
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  Yeah, that's interesting. And that's kind of around my
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  next question, which is we're talking obesity and diabetes.
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  Why? Why did he originally choose
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  these areas? Yeah, so the originally we
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  chose. It was diabetes.
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  GLP ones were first approved for type 2.
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  Diabetes. This was long before the.
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  Realization that at higher doses they can provide compelling.
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  Weight loss and even. Just thinking about type 2
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  diabetes, the you know, it's, it's actually even a little bit
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  more. Clear what the consequences are
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  of non adherence in type 2 diabetes the uncontrolled blood.
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  Sugar for extended periods of time has very clear
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  consequences. Both in terms of health outcomes
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  and and. Cost effectiveness for payers
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  and that was really all we were focused on initially and and the
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  reason was your type 2 diabetes is, is a disease which
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  progresses without symptoms, right.
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  So people don't realize that their disease is getting worse
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  unless they. Go in and they get a blood test
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  and they check their. Glycosylated hemoglobin and and
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  see the numbers rising. So the motivation to adhere to
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  treatment that your doctor recommends is is even lower than
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  it is in the. Case of symptomatic.
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  Diseases. So the kind of how we saw the
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  stakeholders, you know, being interested and and supporting
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  the future adoption of an implant in this disease area
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  was. Compelling to us, the drugs were
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  also. Sufficiently potent that we
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  could fit a. Meaningful duration of treatment
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  into an implant small enough that.
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  We expected patients to. Accept and be willing to
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  receive. And all of those kind of went
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  into the decision to look at GLP one which was not.
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  Our first application, our first application back in the business
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  plan competition days was. In a disease it was in
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  hepatitis. C but with a molecule that
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  called interferon alpha. And this is maybe a a story of
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  of kind of company for, you know, evolution because
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  companies pivot and another drug came on the market that that.
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  Gilead had acquired from a company called Pharmacet that
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  cured hepatitis C was an easy to take pill and made interferon
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  Alpha no longer something that would be interesting to use in
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  the case of hepatitis C. So we it was no longer.
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  So we pivoted from hepatitis C to type 2 diabetes.
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  And that's just what happens in these companies.
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  We have to stay nimble, we have to stay flexible.
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  But it's been GLP one ever since.
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  And we were thinking about this, you know, long before GLP One's,
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  you know, broke out the way that they did and that the way that
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  they are now. So it's really exciting to see
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  kind of as the story evolves, the opportunity looks even more
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  attractive than it than it had before.
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  And that that that's why we were, we've been focused on this
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  area. Yeah, that's a funny story from
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  the Hep C But you're right. Like you have to be nimble.
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  Like you just don't know. These things take such a long
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  time and what's happening right now at Vivani and what you most
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  excited about? Yeah.
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  So we are we just. Finished our first clinical
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  study with the technology. Earlier this year.
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  We had been working our lead program until very recently was
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  with the GLP one. Drug called Xenotide, but we had
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  already had in our pipeline for the last year or so semaglutide.
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  I think Xenotide was the first GLP one to ever receive an
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  approved indication. The the product names were
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  Bydurian and Byetta and that's what we had started to to to
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  work on with our technology. The clinical study was
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  successful. It was demonstrated safety,
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  tolerability, encouraging performance that was indicative
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  of the potential for long term durable, you know, encouraging
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  release in humans, which was which was terrific to see.
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  But at the same time as we announced the results of that
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  study, we also demonstrated feasibility of the technology
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  with semi glutide and the the difference is although they're
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  both GLP one agonists, Semaglutide has already been
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  established to demonstrate compelling weight loss in
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  humans. The xenotide products had only
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  received an indication for type 2 diabetes.
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  We believe that at higher doses it would produce compelling
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  weight loss as well. But but there's no question
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  about Semaglutide's ability to do that and AstraZeneca, which
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  owns the two xenotide products in the market because those
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  products weren't selling commercially discontinued
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  manufacturing and marketing of those products, which means that
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  they wouldn't be available for us to use as a comparator in a
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  future clinical study. So with all of those kind of
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  factors combined, we decided now's the time to prioritize our
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  semi glutide implant, which we had.
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  We've now shown seven months of about 20% weight loss after a
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  single implant in animal studies and we're rapidly advancing that
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  semi glutide implant program into clinical development.
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  We expect in the first half of next year to initiate the first
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  clinical study, but because of the success in the first in
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  human study with our nanoportal that's what we call it
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  technology with xenotide. We are in parallel preparing for
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  a second phase two study with the semaglutide implant so that
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  it could be ready to initiate shortly after results of the
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  first phase one study that you know in the first part of next
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  year we expect to be able to initiate.
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  It's also a short study, so we think it should be completed
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  relatively quickly before we get to the bigger efficacy oriented
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  dose ranging phase two study that we're marching kind of as
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  fast as we can towards as we speak.
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  So that's really what we're mostly excited about is.
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  Advancing the the semiglutide implant.
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  And you know, thinking, you know about the phase.
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  One study as a DE risking opportunity for the phase two
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  just to confirm. That as we change the API from
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  Xenotide to Semiglutide, we still get the expected
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  performance. But really it's that phase two
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  study that we think could be could be transformational,
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  really demonstrating the efficacy of our product in
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  humans for a multi month period of time with a drug that is is
• 17:40
  very well established and accepted and associated with
• 17:43
  products that sell 10s of billions of dollars.
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  Addressing what we see are, you know, some of the biggest unmet
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  needs associated with these products, namely medication
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  adherence, you know, possibly tolerability and you know, also
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  providing a, a more convenient option for for those people that
• 18:01
  would simply prefer to not have to remember to take something on
• 18:06
  a on a very frequent basis. Yeah, it's super exciting what
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  you guys are doing this. I know you've, you've got to
• 18:13
  where you are now, but like, do you feel like this is a point
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  where you've got the most traction during your, your
• 18:18
  growth? I, I think, I think that yes, I,
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  I think that each step along the way we've.
• 18:23
  Overcome obstacles and each each time we've done that the path.
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  Forward has been clearer. Than it had been before and and
• 18:33
  now is no different from before, right So.
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  We. Yeah, I think that.
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  The the momentum, I think the the.
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  Cadence of these. Announcements since our first
• 18:44
  clinical study completed just in August to now has been has been
• 18:50
  frequent and the the. Pace of our progress has has,
• 18:56
  you know, felt like it's really accelerating.
• 18:58
  We're we're now really. In some cases, this, this next,
• 19:03
  this phase one study, we're going to do a semaglutide.
• 19:05
  Well, we've done a phase one study.
• 19:06
  With xenotide, so we're not doing it for.
• 19:09
  The first time anymore, but the manufacturing, which is a big
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  part of what we're doing. A lot of our internal work is
• 19:17
  really on manufacturing process development because it's a, it's
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  a new material, you know, no one's made this at scale in a
• 19:25
  way that conforms to GMP before, you know, so we've had to, to
• 19:28
  pioneer that and, and, but, but we've done that already, right.
• 19:32
  So, so there's more to do. There's, there's, there's
• 19:35
  certainly improvements to make as we proceed, but it, it
• 19:39
  definitely feels a little bit different than it has before.
• 19:44
  And you know, I think as we get into 2026, we get through these
• 19:48
  clinical studies, it'll hopefully just continue to be
• 19:51
  more and more of that. It's awesome.
• 19:53
  And we talked about this a little bit the last time we
• 19:56
  spoke, but how tough financing in this market is and we just
• 20:00
  talk about like from way and growth strategy and how it works
• 20:05
  in this environment. Yeah.
• 20:06
  So it it's it's. Been a difficult overall.
• 20:10
  You know, funding. Environment and biotech
• 20:11
  certainly in early stage, you know, pre revenue companies such
• 20:14
  as ourselves, if you look at kind of a macro level from 2021,
• 20:20
  you know. All the way to, to now, you
• 20:23
  know, certainly when interest rates started to to increase,
• 20:27
  when we had zero interest rates, there was this big boom and then
• 20:30
  when interest rates started to increase, you know.
• 20:34
  Definitely across the sector. It's been, it's been very
• 20:36
  challenging. We, we've been fortunate.
• 20:41
  You know, the, the merger that we went through, I think it was
• 20:45
  about 3 years ago now, you know? Had some capital associated.
• 20:50
  With it, which enabled us to sustain our development for a
• 20:52
  period. Of time we were able to do a a
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  15. $1,000,000 Round with. An external investor a year, a
• 20:59
  year and a half ago and then we. Have been able to organize with
• 21:03
  some, some insiders that are very committed, you know the
• 21:06
  financing that we need to to proceed.
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  So we've been able to weather the storm.
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  That a lot of our peers have have suffered from, and I know
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  many. Very worthy companies that.
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  Haven't been able. To make it, you know, and not
• 21:19
  because their technology or products aren't worthy, it's
• 21:22
  just been challenging. To access the capital, you know
• 21:26
  I the the the hope. Right now, of course, this is
• 21:29
  what people have talked about. Over the last couple.
• 21:30
  Of years and has. Not yet come to pass, so we'll
• 21:32
  see if it comes to pass this time.
• 21:34
  The hope right now is that, you know, interest rates are
• 21:37
  starting to come down. There's a very, very gigantic
• 21:40
  wall of cash that's sitting on the sidelines.
• 21:42
  It has been earning, you know, attractive interest in a, you
• 21:46
  know, as safe a a manner as is possible.
• 21:49
  And as that calculus shifts, then the that that cash will be
• 21:52
  looking. For a new home.
• 21:53
  And you know, hopefully. You know companies in our.
• 21:57
  Kind of peer group will be the beneficiary of that, at least to
• 21:59
  some extent. At a macro level, I think that
• 22:02
  for us, because we've been in one of the sectors that has
• 22:07
  still received attention, you know, the the GOP 1 space, it's
• 22:13
  helped US, you know, convinced as an example, even our inside
• 22:16
  investors to, to continue supporting, you know, but you
• 22:21
  know, a lot of the oxygen has been sucked up with AI and
• 22:24
  crypto. And so that's something that we
• 22:27
  have to deal with. Do some of the investment banks
• 22:29
  that we deal with that traditionally serve companies
• 22:32
  like ourselves have have done a lot of deals in the crypto space
• 22:36
  because you know, you know, public companies that have
• 22:40
  otherwise not performed as well as they hoped to become
• 22:43
  opportunities to have these crypto treasury strategies.
• 22:46
  And it's totally outside of the biotech landscape.
• 22:48
  But these companies have done really well and the markets have
• 22:50
  reacted really well to that. And so a lot of the oxygen has
• 22:55
  been consumed there. Again, I think specialist
• 22:58
  investors who are are, are, are going to be focused in biotech.
• 23:04
  It's the generalists that we need to come back in order to
• 23:07
  really buoy the sector and, and help help all boats.
• 23:12
  So it's been tough. We've been able to weather the
• 23:14
  storm. I, I think we have a good chance
• 23:17
  of being able to continue to weather that storm.
• 23:19
  And hopefully as things improve in the kind of macro environment
• 23:23
  to support companies with our characteristics, it'll only be
• 23:26
  helpful in the year to come. But, you know, I, I, I, I don't
• 23:30
  pretend to be able to predict, you know what that's going to
• 23:34
  look like. You know, everyone that's made
• 23:37
  that prediction over the last couple of years has been wrong
• 23:39
  thus far. So hopefully one day they'll
• 23:41
  turn out to be right and and we'll be in a better place.
• 23:44
  Yeah, maybe that's. I think you, you raised some
• 23:46
  interesting points there, You know, like investors have been
• 23:49
  conservative and therefore the money's been sought getting
• 23:52
  interest. And yeah, it only takes one or
• 23:56
  two to then you know the IT all to fall and you don't know
• 24:01
  what's going to what's going to 'cause that like you see
• 24:05
  companies like LB Pharma coming out and doing an IPO after, was
• 24:09
  it 7-8 months of no one doing 1? Maybe Matt White will follow by
• 24:14
  some release that maybe they have.
• 24:17
  But yeah, you see the IPO market open, there's some positivity
• 24:22
  there. And therefore then private
• 24:23
  fundraising goes up. And yeah, there's some
• 24:26
  interesting points there for sure.
• 24:30
  Just generally like you, you guys have got to a really good
• 24:33
  place and you continuing to to look to the future and and do
• 24:37
  really well. What What advice do you give to
• 24:40
  founders and leaders trying to build through through these
• 24:43
  tough considered conditions? It's a great question.
• 24:48
  I think that there is an instinct for certainly a first
• 24:52
  time founder to think about development from the perspective
• 24:57
  of how can I most efficiently realize the potential value of
• 25:02
  what we're working on. And if the resources were
• 25:06
  infinitely available, then that would be the way to go, right?
• 25:10
  If you could have a billion dollars today, then you could
• 25:14
  efficiently get to your result. And in many cases like that's
• 25:19
  what the venture capital like a model looks like, right?
• 25:22
  If you just throw resources at it and you, you go quickly and
• 25:25
  if you fail, well then you're not in a good situation often
• 25:29
  based on the terms of these deals, but you have the
• 25:33
  opportunity to kind of realize the value quickly.
• 25:35
  But in, in tough times, what I would encourage people to think,
• 25:39
  think about is to try to be a little bit more patient and to
• 25:43
  realize that that surviving, you know, maybe more critical than,
• 25:49
  you know, having the chance at getting rich really fast, you
• 25:53
  know, and, and well, what that I think inevitably, inevitably
• 25:58
  means is that you're going to, you might develop less
• 26:00
  efficiently than you would have liked to develop.
• 26:04
  But sometimes if, if the resources aren't there or you or
• 26:08
  you think that's a gamble that's not worth taking because it does
• 26:11
  come along with a lot of baggage if you if you go that route
• 26:14
  then. You, you, you.
• 26:16
  You think about getting to the next milestone and and and even
• 26:19
  if it. Takes you longer than you'd
• 26:21
  like. And that enabling you to get to
• 26:25
  the milestone after that. And continually de risking, you
• 26:27
  know, at the. End you might end up spending
• 26:29
  more money and taking. More time than you would have.
• 26:31
  If you were able to do it all at once upfront.
• 26:33
  But that's just not realistic or feasible.
• 26:37
  So to think about, OK, how do I think about survival and, and
• 26:43
  organizing the development plan, focusing on the areas that are
• 26:46
  actually really most important right now.
• 26:48
  And maybe only and then getting the team to recognize that
• 26:52
  although we might not be advancing as rapidly as we would
• 26:56
  have liked that this is maybe optimizing our long term success
• 27:02
  equation. And I think that's the mindset
• 27:06
  that you know, you know, it would make sense for founders to
• 27:09
  think about in the context of a resource constrained
• 27:13
  environment, I think. That's a really good point.
• 27:15
  I mean, I know it's very different from what I do to you
• 27:18
  do, but we we always talk about if we can thrive in this
• 27:22
  environment, then imagine what we're going to do in when the
• 27:25
  market does turn. And if you guys it's it's if we
• 27:28
  can survive through this, then we can survive through anything.
• 27:31
  Yeah. And I, I remember it's quite
• 27:33
  ironic now, but people all the way through 20 through end of 23
• 27:37
  to 24, people used to say to me like it's just survive till 25
• 27:42
  and then we'll. We'll be there and.
• 27:44
  Obviously now it's September of 25 and it's it's still
• 27:47
  surviving, but the premise is still the same, right?
• 27:51
  Like you, you, you survive through this.
• 27:53
  You survive anything. And then you can even thrive
• 27:55
  When, when, when the market does turn.
• 27:58
  So I think that's really good advice.
• 27:59
  Yeah. And then I just want to finish
• 28:01
  on our final question as well, which is the same that we ask in
• 28:04
  every podcast. If you could have dinner with
• 28:06
  any scientist or innovator, past or present, who would it be and
• 28:10
  why? Well.
• 28:11
  I'm going to try to quickly. Give you 2 answers.
• 28:13
  Because. Because one would be I mentioned
• 28:16
  earlier in this conversation. The name Al Man, who was a
• 28:20
  legendary medical device entrepreneur and I did have the
• 28:24
  honor to get to know him when I was very young.
• 28:27
  He passed away many, many years ago and before I had the
• 28:31
  experiences that I have had since.
• 28:34
  So I, I would, I would love to have, have the opportunity to,
• 28:39
  to have dinner with him today so that I could discuss everything
• 28:44
  I've learned since and obtain any advice that he has.
• 28:48
  He, he was, so I think I mentioned the word prolific, but
• 28:54
  he, but he had this combination of, of an innovative creative
• 28:57
  mind and the ability to organize and execute on a plan and get
• 29:01
  other members of the team to be able to align to that vision and
• 29:06
  cooperate towards its execution and realization.
• 29:10
  And it's that sort of combination that I, I see in
• 29:14
  innovators generally that I admire and that I aspire to, to,
• 29:18
  to, to, to be like myself. And then the other part of the
• 29:21
  other answer to that question, because I, I did, I never had
• 29:24
  the opportunity to meet Steve Jobs, But, but he's someone that
• 29:29
  I have read about and, and, and you know, you know, not
• 29:34
  necessarily admire all the personal, personal
• 29:36
  characteristics. But again, it's a similar
• 29:39
  ability to be creative and innovative and be able to
• 29:43
  articulate that vision in a way that gets other people to want
• 29:46
  to come on board and carry out a vision.
• 29:49
  And to, and I think in, in both cases, in AL's case and in in
• 29:53
  Steve Jobs's case, and I think Apple once had the look, the
• 29:57
  slogan think different. It really was not following the.
• 30:01
  Crowd it was having ideas that were different.
• 30:05
  Than what the world had. Embraced at the time and it's
• 30:11
  the combination with having that idea, having the conviction to
• 30:15
  see it through and then ultimately being proven correct.
• 30:18
  Lots of people have the conviction around ideas that.
• 30:21
  Turn out not to be. Correct as far as when they get
• 30:23
  tested in the market, but but that combination is, is, is so?
• 30:28
  Powerful and is it is just. Challenging to do, particularly
• 30:34
  when you're in in both their cases and in my.
• 30:36
  Case we we can't really find out whether.
• 30:40
  The user and the customer is going to.
• 30:43
  Is going to adopt it until you've already spent a lot of
• 30:46
  time and money developing the product.
• 30:48
  You know, we can't release a prototype app and see if we're
• 30:52
  getting traction before we can raise the funding to, you know,
• 30:55
  make a mature product out of it. You have to just, you have to
• 30:59
  get, you have to be in the mind of the customer and convince
• 31:03
  investors to support your vision and then ultimately be proven
• 31:08
  correct that you your. Vision was right, even though it
• 31:11
  was different from what most other people were were working
• 31:14
  on. And I guess.
• 31:15
  How they were able to. Do that successfully or why they
• 31:19
  think they were able to do that successfully, that those are the
• 31:21
  questions that I, I would ask him if there's anything I could
• 31:24
  learn that could help. Me, you know, ultimately.
• 31:27
  Be successful with that too. That's what I'd be seeking to
• 31:30
  get. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:31
  Love those answers. Yeah, amazing.
• 31:34
  Thank you so much for coming on, Adam.
• 31:35
  It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Max.
• 31:37
  Thank you for having me. Please everyone like and
• 31:39
  subscribe to the Bio Hub. It's been brought to you by
• 31:42
  Avetix. And thank you so much again,
• 31:44
  Adam. Thank you.
• 31:45
  Take care.