Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Barbie & Ken Killers, Part 2

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The Barbie & Ken Killers, Part 2 · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of The Barbie and Ken Killers.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm Nicole and I'm Ben and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: and Grim and Drew Grime podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Morning audience listeners question.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Is what's up, guys?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Welcome.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Booze is present because we need we need booze for
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: this case.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It's a wild one.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: And I did say in the last episode I needed whiskey.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not drinking whiskey strictly because because it's still hot
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: as balls and I need a cold beer.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: A cold beer. You're not drinking White Claws.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm drinking cold beer from Smithers Smithers Brewing Fun.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: It's their new cloud Waters with Beer. I saw it
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the liquor store and I was like, I'm trying it
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: and at my first sip I like it good.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I'm glad.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyways, after that.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Plug, yeah, not sponsored or anything not sponsored by So yeah,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: we're going to jump back into it as a little recap.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I guess we were talking about Paul Bernardo and Carla.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Hello home, whoa Carla? I can't even speak.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, Nicole's had one. She's drunk.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is okay. Could you imagine if I was
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: like shouldar trying to do a podcast.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: We should do that one day drunk wicked and great.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, well I thought that would be fun back in
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the day, but now that we've like started this second,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: If I would want to back in the day a
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: whole like five months that we first started the podcast,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: So I think we should do that one day drunk
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: wickening grim.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe maybe, maybe maybe we should.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: We'll put up a story and see what people think.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: For sure they're gonna want it, but it might be
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: ever disaster.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I think would be. That's the best part.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I'll have to do commentary because, like lots of times, if
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I'm too drunk, I can't read.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, I will be so screwed. I'll be the same.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be a ship show if we do it.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: But I'm totally down for it.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. So yeah, we're talking about Paul, and we're talking
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: about Carla, and we're talking about how their pieces of
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: shit cutting right to it, cutting right to it. We
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: went through like the Scarborough rapes and then we just
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: stopped at We've actually was quite a ship place to stop.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Sorry about that pipes, but how they were going to
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: their next victim who was going to beat Tammy Homolko.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I keep saying the last name wrong, so just bear
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: with me. Names are hard, And Carla was basically offering
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: her little sister's virginity.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the biggest piece of thing you could get Christmas present. Yeah,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Merry Christmas to my hobby. You can bang my sister
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: like that's without her consented. That's really fucked. You don't
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: get that. You can't do that.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I know it's it's just fucked up. It's fucked.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: These people are so messed up.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, I basically had dropped hit off saying
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: that the next victim was Tammy, so to start us off.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: This didn't necessarily come out of left field, though, okay,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: because although he was engaged, he as in Paul to Carla.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Paul would flirt constantly with her young sister Tammy. His
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: obsession with her would grow on the daily.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Really, and how old is she? She's like fourteen fifteen fifteen.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: He would peer into her window and enter into her
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: room to master while sheet while she's your face.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: That's fucking disgusting.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: You're just like a pauled. I couldn't even get through.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be able to look at you, Carla,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: helping him gain access to her sisters, right the fuck?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this case it just goes downhill from when
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I already fucking present. Earlier in July, Paul took Tammy
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: across the border to get beer for a party, which,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: like that didn't make any sense to me, because like
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: he could have gotten beer in Canada for her, and
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: like she was young, so like and the drinking age
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: over there is older. Anyway, I was just like whatever. Later,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: telling her fiance that they got drunk and made out that.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: All right, I feel really gross listening to this, but okay,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: keep going.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Oh just wait, I just kind of read this next line. Okay.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Carla would also role play her sister Oh in bed
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: with Paul Oh wearing his wearing her sister's clothes, saying
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: her name was Tammy and that she was fifteen years
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: old and I'm your virgin.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: That is why what? No, yeah, no, that's that's a
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: whole new kind of fucked up.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Just a bit. It's a little fucked.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: You are enjoying putting me through this. I think I.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Actually, okay, I put so much frickin' work into this one.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: This this podcast, so I'm like almost kind of like, oh,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be over.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: And get my life back until next one. You have
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: to reach it.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But then it's also like I knew that you
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: would just cringe at so many things, and it's kind
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: of fun to watch. Okay, this part doesn't make a
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: lot of sense to me, with Carla offering Tammy's virginity
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: as a Christmas gift, but I was like, maybe this
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: was just their first attempt at it. But one night,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Carla laced Tammy's spaghetti sauce with crushed vol volume vallium
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: vallium valium she had stolen from her employee at the
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Martindale Animal Clinic. She served it to her sister, who
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: soon lost consciousness. Paul then raped or maybe just like
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulted Tammy while Carla watched, because Tammy woke up
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: about a minute later. So the valium wasn't.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Super strong enough for potent enough.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, So like I guess I don't know if that
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: was first attemp or maybe the very tempted, but really
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: like it wasn't long. So then on December twenty third,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, this is six months before Paul and Carla
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: were going to get married. Oh god, which is like
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: kind of fucked up.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole thing is kind of fucked up.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: My back is already hurting. This is going to be
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: a long ride. Carla had stole the anesthetic agent and like,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: there's some medical things, so just bear with me. Halothane
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: halathane from the clinic. They administered sleeping pills to the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: fifteen year old in a rub rub rumen eggnog cocktail.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: You like that.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I love rummen eggnog.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Without without the sleeping pills, right.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean sometimes I want to get the
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: nap in.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: So and when Tammy lost consciousness, they undressed her and
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Carla applied a Hall of Fame soaked cloth to her
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: sister's nose and mouth. With Tammy's parents sleeping upstairs, Carla
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: and Paul videotaped themselves raping her in the basement.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: They videoed it too.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're really into that.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Actually, So her sister was not necessarily just involved in
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: the rape. She actually partook in the rape.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. There was even times where I think that
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: she did things, but I didn't really dive into that.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Let something, she's eating something off the floor, what are
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: you doing, ripley, ripley, what you've got? Did you find
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: a bug or something it's gone whatever it was, or no,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know, there's some thing over there.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: It's really a bug. Probably, So at one point Tammy
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: began to vomit. They tried to revive her, and once
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: the evidence was hidden, like Tammy being dressed and in
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: her bedroom, they called nine one one. A few hours later,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Tammy was pronounced dead at the Saint Catherine's General Hospital.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Oh no, they killed her. Shit, really, despite their odd
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: behavior of vacuuming and washing laundry in the middle of
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: the night and Tammy having a nasty like it was nasty.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I saw a picture chemical burn on her face. The
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: coroner and the family accepted Paul and Carla's story are
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: the official cause of Tammy's death. Death was accidental accidental
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: choking on vomit after consumption of alcohol.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: That's oh my god.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Like the burn was horrific on her face and I
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: don't don't even have it in here, but they their
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: lie or something was that while they're trying to like
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: save her. It was carpet burn.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, there is a big difference between carpet burn
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and chemical burn.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's honestly just it blows my mind that
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: they didn't check into that, Like that's crazy.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: No kidding, what kind of corner is this? Were they
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: just like going down to the corner of like who
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: knows where downtown being like, hey, yeah, someone to look
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: at a dead body, and they're like some dudes at
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: trench coat. Yo, I got your back, man.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: We've kind of been over that before though too lot
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: somes if they're if it's not like super suspicious, Like
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: it's like they don't dive in.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: You know, a chemical burn on the face of someone
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: who just died of exphyxiation is super suspicious.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I would think.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: So, whether she actually died of exphyxiation or it was
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the drug overdose regardless.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like I think that she was puking, they
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: probably didn't notice, Like they had this cloth up to
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: her mouth and then she like choked it at on
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: her vomit.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Jeez.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So Paul and Carla moved out of the Hamoko house
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: shortly after to allow the parents to grieve, Carla apparently
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: being quite annoyed that they were taking so long to
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: get over it.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Are you fucking serious?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: No? Not or I am okay. I was like, oh,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you're like, okay, She's not that bad then, so she
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: was annoyed that she was annoyed because like her wedding
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: was approaching, so she wanted like all the attention to
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: be on her. And then they, the parents even were
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: thinking that she should postpone her wedding because just this
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: traumatic event just happened, like her Brigand's sister died, and
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: she was like basically like, get the fuck over it.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: What the frig you know, like, seriously, what a piece
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: of work? Ah, I want to call her the C word.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I know, I want to say it. I can I
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: say it? This?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, moving on, I love you. Paul's next rape
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: would be on April sixth, nineteen ninety one, committing his
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: twelfth rape, raping a fourteen year old girl in Saint
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Catharine's but staying away from his like regular emo. He
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: attacked the fourteen year old in the morning rather than
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: late at night, and it did not occur near us. Stop.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, So he's evolving, like we discussed last time.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So then on June seventh, nineteen ninety one, Carla
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: invited a fifteen year old girl she had befriended at
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: a pet shop years earlier over for a girl's night
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: member she used to work at like a pets yea, right,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to refer to this girl as Jane
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Doe after just.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Because she's underage, is that right?
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: You'll find out Okay. After an evening of shopping and dining,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Carla began to feed Jane Doe alcohol laced with helcy
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: in Helcian used to treat insomnia.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: When the girl lost consciousness, Carla called Paul to tell
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: her that his surprise virgin wedding gift was ready.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: What the fuck? Like, what the fuck is.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Isn't that just like unimaginable that you're like your gifts
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: to someone is like a freaking young person that you've
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: drugged and that is a virgin and you're gonna let
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: your spouse right.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my wedding gift to you, I got you a
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: replica Cinderella shoe, Yeah, I really.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I got you a gun, which I guess it kind
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: of weird, but.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: A hunting rifle, yes, for the record, not just like hey,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: here's a nine mel go cap. Some asses like no.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Paul videotape Carla raping the girl before he took over
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: vaginally and anally penetrating her. The next morning, Jane Doe
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: was nauseous but thought that her vomiting was from drinking
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: alcohol for the first time and did not realize that
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: she had been sexually assaulted.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: What she was sexually she was nauseous from being sexual assaulted,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: well from drinking.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Like, remember they were feeding her lots of alcohol.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: That okay, okay, okay. I was like, wait, so she.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Thought she was just sick from that, okay, but it
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: was probably also it had to do I'm sure with
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: like drinking, but then also like the drug that was
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: in there, and then she was sore too, But like
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I think she just thought it.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Was from booze. Yeah, I don't know, first time boozer,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't know what to expect to mean.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: In August, the same girl was invited back to their
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: home to spend the night and was once again drugged
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: and raped. At one point, Carla called nine one one
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: as Jane Doe had appeared to stop breathe stop breathing,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: but called back a few minutes later to say that
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: everything is actually all right, and the ambulance was recalled
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: without following up. Jane Doe did survive.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: She did good.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean she's underage, so and she survived,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: so they're just referring to her chin fair enough, fair enough,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I mean kind of sad, like I'm sure she's still
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: out there and like she she had no idea. She
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: thought she was just going to a friend's post to
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: hang out and later has to find out that she
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: was actually.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Like rap rap twice. Yeah, fuck no, thank you, I
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: don't I'm never going to go to a friend's house again.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Someone's like, hey, you want to come over and fucking
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: play watch the hockey game or something. Yeah, no, I
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: want my sphincter intact. Thank you.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is making you going to be
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: like a hermitting.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Probably this entire podcast, we're talking about people going out
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: and like killing people and just crawl like the bedroom strangler,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: crawling in windows at night.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I know even like, oh, I don't even
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: think I should say this, but we've been leaving like
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: one window open at night. That's like kind of bothersome
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: to me. And I think I've asked you a couple
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: of times, so okay, and you're always kitchen. Yeah, but
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: then if you weren't tell them. That would not be
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: fucking open. There's no way.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, we do have dogs that would
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: definitely alert us.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: They would alert us. I don't know if they would
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: do anything.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know how it goes when I wake
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: up and I hear some strange noises.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you're not home, right.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I've been home. Yeah, I'll break some teeth
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: in at least I like to think I would, but
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I probably would just die, you would know.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, So next up, because we're not quite done yet,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: would be Leslie Mahaffey. On June fifteenth, nineteen ninety one,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Paul was in Burlington to steal license plates and came
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: across Leslie. She was a fourteen year old girl, and
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: just to do the math for you, Paul would have
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: been twenty seven at that time. Fox sake Like that's nasty, Yeah,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: like nasty.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: That's basically double her age.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like disgusting. Leslie missed her curfew after attending a
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: friend's wake and was locked out of her house, which
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that's sad. I mean, okay, that wake was
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: earlier in the day and then they were just like
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: she was kind of at a celebration, and I think
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: she was kind of like not she was not. She
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: had some issues and her parents like locked her out,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: but I mean, god, they probably yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Shit, I don't want to hear what's coming up.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: But because also she had phoned a friend too to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: see if she could sleep there, but then the friend
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: was like, no, it's not like a good idea. It's
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: really late, like my mom might get mad, and so
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: like Leslie was on her own and then have terrible
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: look luck.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: She ran into Paul across this dick weed.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: So Paul, coming across Leslie on the street, approached her
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: saying that he wanted to break into a neighbor's house. Leslie,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: being unfazed by this, was more concerned if Paul had
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: any cigarettes.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Really, that's that's her question.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I know, I would feel like, you're out.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Alone with some strange dude and he's like, suck you
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: want to?
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that something was at that age, especially if you're
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: like going through something, you probably think that you're rule in.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: The world, right, I guess Yeah, when.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I was dumb as a kid, I can tell you
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: that when Paul led her to his car to get
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the cigarettes, I'm assuming he blindfolded her, forced her into
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: his car, and proceeded to drive her home.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, I needed a breath there. Paul and Carla, Okay,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: actually I didn't throw this in there, but it's so
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: fucked up. It's like, okay, Carl, I think was like
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: sleeping and in the morning was like all pissy that
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: he had this girl there. And you want to know
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the reason why she was actually pissy? Why is because
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I guess the night before Paul had served him in
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Leslie's champagne, in their nice champagne glasses, like they're special ones,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and so she was pissed off that.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: But not the fact that he just kidnapped this young
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: fu girl and brought her home to rape while she's sleeping.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: She eventually just came around and came part of it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: These guys are fucked up, Like I can't understand. All right, Okay,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Moving on.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Paul and Carla then once again videotape themselves torturing and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: sexually abusing Leslie while they listened to Bob Marley and
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: David Bowie.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: At one point, all right, what they're sitting here torturing
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: and sexually assaulting this girl while they're playing songs like
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: every little thing right, like what that like.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Like this, wait till this, this next line, like this
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: next line is like wow Okay. At one point, Paul
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: praised Leslie, saying that she was doing a good job,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: a damned good job, and that the next two hours
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: would determine her fate. Right now, her scoring was perfect.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: What the fuck does that even mean?
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: That's nasty?
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Hey wow.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: The assault escalated, with Leslie crying out in pain, begging
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Paul to stop as he was sodomizing her and her
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: hands were bound with twine. Leslie's fate was sealed later
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: when she mentioned to Paul that her blindfold seemed to
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: be slipping down. This single signaled to Paul and Carla
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the possibility that she could identify them if she lived.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: The following day, Leslie was killed.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: These people make me fucking sick.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And it's almost like God, if she
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: didn't say something about her blindfold, like would she have lived?
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: But probably not, But her blindfold would have fell down.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: If it's slipping, it's going to keep slipping, it's going
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: to fall down, and they would see She would see
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: them for sure, and that would see her fate even
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: more so. This way she rolled the dice, maybe they
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: would fix it and it's okay, But they didn't take that.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: They didn't let her take the chance.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: So a little glimpse into the future too. Paul claimed
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Carla fed her a lethal dose of hallsint halsane. I
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: think I might be saying that wrong, helse On.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: It was the thing for insolmia, I think. And Carla
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: claimed that Paul strangled Leslie. So they have different different
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: stories there.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Also in the future they kind of turn on each
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: other a bit.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be a little glimpse, A little glimpse.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: They a little bit of kara at least.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: They then proceeded to hold on to Leslie's dead body
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: in their basement until after they hosted Carla's family over
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: for dinner, at which point they then disposed of the
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: evidence by dismembering Leslie and encasing her remains in cement. Keeping.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: The receipts would be held against Paul later as he
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: purchased a dozen bags of the cement at a hardware store.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Why did he keep the receipt That's the dumbest thing
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: he kept.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Other weird shit, Well, I mean they're fucking videotape in
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: the ship.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know what they're concerned about getting caught like
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the Rodney I'll.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Call a case. One of the things, like the dating
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: game killer.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: One of the things he had that convicted him was
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: a fucking receipt.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that would probably I keep receipts. So
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: I'm fucked.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do not. I'm bad at that.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: So, using his grandfather father saw to dismember Leslie, Paula
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: and Carla made a number of trips to Lake Gibson
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: to dump Leslie's remains, leaving the heaviest block, which weighed
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: about two hundred pounds, near the shore as they didn't
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: have the ability to sink it. It was found a
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks later on Carla and Paul's wedding day.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Don't dull they So they didn't even.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Dispose the body properly, not really, like I mean, they
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: fucked up, Like that's two hundred pounds, Like what were
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: they thinking? Yeah, no shit, and so yeah, they couldn't
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: they couldn't put it deep enough and stuff, and so
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: they just left it on the shore, all right.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Of course, someone's gonna find it.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so the next victim would be Christian French.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: How many victims are there?
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I think I think this might be the last one,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to scroll and lose my spot.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Paul and Carla were driving through. I'm pretty sure it
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: is Saint Catherine's looking for a potential next victim, you know,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: just strolling around when God, I would be going like
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: ice creamers.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I was just about to say, go and get some
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: ice cream.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: You drive out teenager when they okay, I mean.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: You could probably get someone under age with an ice
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: cream truck. Combine the two. I don't know, you want
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: to get the creepy Peto van? Maybe?
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Okay. As they passed Holy Cross Secondary School,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: a Catholic high school, they spotted fifteen year old Christian
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Kristin making her way home. They pulled into a nearby
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: parking lot and Carla got out of the car, approaching
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: her with a map in hand, pretending to meet assistance.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like, okay, I'm actually a super bitch. Actually
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: if people like approach me. And I think it's from
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: just listening to true crime, because lots of times it's
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: like sketch and well, no, the majority of time it's
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: not sketch, but it can be sketch. And I'm can
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: you just like keep your distance away.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: From me, place your hand out like excuse that, just
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: like stop, do not come any closer.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: So as Kristin looked at the map, Paul attacked her
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: from behind, forcing her into the front seat of the car.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: From the back seat, Carla subdued her by pulling her hair. Kristen,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: taking the same route home from school every day and
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: arriving home at generally the same time each day, was
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: reported missing very soon after the abduction.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Good good, Good.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Her parents convinced that something bad had happened within I
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: thought you're drinking something.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Funey, I might burp because of the beers, some leaning
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: away the microphone. Sorry.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Within twenty four hours, the Niagara Regional Police Service assembled
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: a team searching Christian's root and found several witnesses who
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: had actually seen the abduction from different locations. Her shoe
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: was also recovered from the parking lot, which definitely showed
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: the seriousness of the of the adduction.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: One you lose the spot I did getting too distracted
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: with me getting this because you're.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Moving around a lot like just sit there.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I leaned away from the mic for a second and
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: then I like just reached down for a pencil, and
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: you're just like the whole world's ending.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. So over the Easter weekend, Paul and Carla videotape
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: themselves torturing, raping, and sodomizing this girl, forcing her to
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: drink large amounts of alcohol and submit to Paul. They
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: never blindfolding blindfolded her, so they intended to kill her
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: all along. Her nude body was found on April thirtieth,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two in a ditch in Burlington. Paul and
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Carla had washed her body and cut off her hair
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: to like impede identification and yeat. As far as we know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Christian French would be their last victim, hopefully, But well,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: I mean I touch on this later. I think there's
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: like so many.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: More generally with serial killers, there's they.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Don't they don't admit to every single one, like do
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: they really no?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And just yeah, yeah, yeah, there's of course a bigger
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: rap sheet.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: So if Paul hadn't already compromised his future, he did
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: even more so that summer when Carla would turn into
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: his literal punching big oh shit, severely beating her many times,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: causing people to notice in January, and I just mean
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that because like that's going to help her in court. Right.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you grated that, but I'm I did.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I'm disappointed.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I got it a note take in Remember that pencil
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I said I was reaching for I'm writing this day.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, but lots of times like you do throw out
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: subtle hints and I don't get them. So now I'm
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: just like, oh, maybe Ben doesn't get it.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I got it. I appreciate it. Thanks, thanks for letting
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: me know. I appreciate it.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: You got my back, and you're right. Of nineteen ninety three,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Carla's parents would intervene and persuade her to take refuge
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: in the home of one of her sisters, her sister
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Laurie's friend's house, whose husband was a police officer. Chargers
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: were filed against Paul and he was arrested but later released.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Of course, they're always fucking later released every goddamn story.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's already been like, like I already mentioned
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: it one I think once, I think in yesterday's episode,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: but there was other times too, like I could have.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: This case could probably be like five episodes. But there
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: was other times where like police would chat with him
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: and he just always got away with it because he
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: was like a charmer.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: I guess right, And it's like I go like five
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: over the speed limit and I get a speeding ticket
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and can't talk my way out of it.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Well, honestly, I would be not guilty of something and
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: look guilty of something. It's like, is how I would
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I think what happened to me?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like like when you get pulled over by
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the cops and then it's like when they're slowly walking
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: up to the vehicle from behind you, you're all of
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: a sudden, like shit, do I have a key blow
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: of cocaine in my glovebox? I don't even do drugs,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: and you're just like panic like all this random stuff
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: like maybe I have a dead body in my trunk.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I hope he doesn't search the trunk.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I know, I hope that he doesn't look around. I
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: might know something like right.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe someone left a joint behind or something like who knows,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I wasn't drinking today, was I Like?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: All this sort of shit goes through your head.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I know then shortly after this, and this is twenty
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: six months after Paul originally submitted his DNA sample. Remember
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: that DNA sample, the pool of a.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Sample, the whole pool of samples.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Police were informed that it was a match of the
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Scarboro rapist and immediately placed Paul under twenty four hour surveillance.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: So it took them two years to identify that sam.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, well they just kept Okay. One thing is
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: they stopped right, the scar rape stopped when he moved,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: and so that almost even put them even more on
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: the back burner because they're like, oh, they're not really
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: happening now.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Still, but I'm like, that's bad. So they requested an
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: interview with Carla on February ninth, nineteen ninety three. Despite
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: hearing their suspicions about Paul, Carla only focused on his
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: abuse of her. Later that night, being worried, she told
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: her aunt and uncle that Paul was the Scarborough rapist
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: and that her and Paul Paul were involved in the
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: rape and murder of Leslie and Christian, and that the
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: rapes were videotaped, were recorded on videotape.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: So she just up and admitted it all.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: She's telling her family. Yeah, well, I mean.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: That's that's admitting it, but like, yeah to someone at.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Least, Yeah, she's admitting it. But you'll see she doesn't
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: admit it really well.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: She goes back in her word in court. Well, no
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: official statements and stuff or what.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Carla got herself a good lawyer, George Walker. Here we go,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: and this is funny. She apparently knew. It's not funny. Actually,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: she apparently knew knew him because she cared for her
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: his cancer, his dalmatian that had cancer. So that's actually
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: not funny. I'm not sure who said that. George realized
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: that Carla was not necessary the innocent victim of Paul
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: as she had painted herself to be, but he did
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: not fully understand what exactly her rule had been in
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: the crimes and seek some kind of and wanted to
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: seek some kind of immunity for her. On February seventeenth,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Paul was arrested in conjunction with both the Scarborough rapes
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: and the murders of Leslie and Christian, with the search
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: weren't obtained because his link to the murders was weak,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the warrant was limited.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: How is it weak? What do you mean, how is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: his link to the murders?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And they had think not the so they were not
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: weak to the rapes. But they didn't have a lot
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: of edible so the search weren't was mostly like on
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the grounds that he was just the Scarborough rapist and
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: didn't murder these two girls.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Well, search weren't still allows them to search as ship
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: for stuff.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Well okay, well I'm about I was about to get in.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, I was.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: About to say everything the warrant was limited, and then
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I was going to say how it was limited, okay
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: before you had your little hissy.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I want to know this shit.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: No evidence which was not expected and documented in the
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: warrant could be removed from the premises, and all videotapes
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: found by police had to be viewed in the house.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Damage had to be kept to a minimum. Police could
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: not tear down walls looking for videotapes. That was what
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: it was limited to.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Were the fucking tapes in the walls.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: So an extension extensive library of books and videos on
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: sexual deviation, porn and serial killers was found, as well
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: as a written description from Paul of every one of
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the Scarborough rapes. Unfortunately, the only home videotape found was
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: a brief segment of Carla performing oral sex on Jane
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Doe that.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, so the tapes were in the fucking walls, weren't.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: They, yeah, or the ceiling or something. Yeah. Shortly after that,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: George George Walker, which was Carla's lawyer, and Murray Siegel
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Sigel I don't know who was a plea bargain specialist
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: for the Attorney General, informed Carla that the government was
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: offering her a plea bargain. She would get twelve years
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: in prison and be eligible for parole in as little
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: as three years with good behavior. The government even agreed
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: to content contact the parole Board on Carla's behalf, pointing
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: out to them the importance of her testimony against Paul.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: In exchange for this, Carla would agree to tell the
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: absolute truth about her involvement in the crimes and everything
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: she knew about them. Carla obviously agreed unconditionally, and she.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Doesn't tell the truth spoiler alert. I'm sure I don't know.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: She maybe does, but she also plays, She also.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Makes her she downplays her involvement.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: She's a victim in her eyes, she's.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: A victim of Paul, which I did kind of say
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: that in the other episode. I felt bad for her
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: because she's just so like taken by this dude that
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: she's willing to do everything.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's actively took in and like I also
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: feel like she had the opportunity to leave him.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, she is partly a victim. However, yes,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: she is also a fucking predator, a rapist her I know.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he's a charmer.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Would she have done those things if it weren't for him,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Probably not, So that is where I think she is
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: a victim. However, she's still a fucking piece of shit
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: because she did it all too. She was involved.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, so this next part is a bit of a
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: tear jerker. In March, Carla would be checked into psychiatric
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: hospital for assessment. She also eventually got up the courage
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: to write a very important letter. Do you have any
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: idea who the letter would.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Be to her sister?
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Her parents?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Oh? I thought it was gonna be like a beyond
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: the grave letter sort of thing.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, And it said, dear Mom, Dad, and Laurie, this
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: is the hardest letter I'll ever have to write, and
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: you'll probably all hate me once you read it. I've
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: kept this inside myself for so long, and I just
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: can't lie to you anymore. Both Paul and I are
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: responsible for Tammy's death. I could like almost cry. Paul
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: was in love with her and wanted to have sex
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: with her. He wanted me to help him. He wanted
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: me to get sleeping pills from work to drug her.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: He threatened me and physically and emotionally abused me when
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I refused. No words I can say can make you
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: understand what he put me through. So stupidly, I agreed
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: to do as he said, but something, maybe the combination
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of drugs and the food she ate that night, caused
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: her to vomit. I tried so hard to save her.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I am I'm so sorry, but my words, but no
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: words I can say, can bring her back. I would
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: gladly give my life for her. I don't expect you
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to ever forgive me, for I will never forgive myself.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Carla xo XO. Wow, isn't that really fucking sad?
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: That's heartbreaking?
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Like it actually like makes me feel more sweaty. And
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: it's not just because we're in a heat wave, because
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: it's so sad, Like, it's so sad it's so sad.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Drink some of your white claw might help take the
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: sweatiness away. But no, definitely, that's that's straight from the heart.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: That's that's serious. And she's definitely feeling some not resentment
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: to her family or even necessarily towards fucking what's his nat, Paul,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: but a lot towards herself for what she did rightfully.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: So, but then also she is just like she's smart, right,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: and I think that she was she actually writing that
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: letter from the heart or was it like trying to
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: make the letter seem like she's a good person that
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: just got caught up in something potentially, I don't know.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't even nearly necessarily have to write
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: a letter to her family really if she didn't want to.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So Carla doesn't forgive her for what she did.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: She's still a piece of shit, you know, like just brutal.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Carla's trial began on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: her psychiatric report helping to set the stage for the
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: plea bargain deal. It concluded that Carla knew what was happening,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: but she felt totally helpless and unable to act in
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: her own defense. Or anyone else's defense. She was, in
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: my opinion, like the psychiatric report, paralyzed with fear and
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: the state, and in that state became obedient and self serving.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Have a question, Apparently you do, because your hand's been raised,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: and I was like, hold on, hold on.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: So did she write that letter before her psychiatric evaluation
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: in the report for her plea deal?
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Do I know that?
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Because if she did, then I think it most likely
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: was a ploy to better her position.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: I feel like, well, she wrote it before she was
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: in court, then yeah, it.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Was most likely upon in her scheme, because as far
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: as I'm concerned, because there's there's two ways I see it.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Either A she and I do think she is partly
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: a victim in this whole thing. So either A she
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: is showing she's a victim and showing she is, though
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: still a piece of shit, still part human. Or B
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: she has no emotions about it and she's trying to
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: fucking play the system and get some fucking benefit out
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: One of those well, because something I had even not said,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I forgot to actually mention it. But like there was
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: some jealousy too with her sister, right, Oh yeah, because
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: like Paul was flirting with her, and then I think
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: her sister kind of liked it and was even like
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: I'm younger and prettier and stuff, and so I could
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: see it there was like some resentment there. But then
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I also don't know, I don't think that when they
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: did that and when they were taking planning to take
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: her virginity, that they didn't plan to kill her. And honestly,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Paul was actually mad for a long time at Carla
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: that he killed her because he like that she killed her.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, but also they were pissed off at
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Carla's parents were not getting over it soon enough for
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: the wedding.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Well Carla was yeah.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So clearly she doesn't have much remorse.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I know, I don't know. I know, like when at
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: the end we can talk about it, and I feel
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: like I, in the sense could feel bad for Carla,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: But I also don't think that she's as victim as
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: she came across, and in my opinion.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think so either. I do you think there's
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: she's still partly a victim, but she's wholly responsible.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Still, well yeah, because like without her meeting him, I
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: don't know if she would have been criminal. So the
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: trial ended with the media only being allowed to report
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: on a few details of the case so that the
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: jury pool that would be selected for Paul's trial would
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: not be tainted by information they heard prior to his trial.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Expecting a public oak cry over the plea bargain, Murray,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: who was the plea bargain specialist, chose to make a statement,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: why not a greater penalty in light of the horrendous facts?
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Without her, the true state of affairs might never be
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: known again. Guilty plea is the traditional hallmark of remorse.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Her age, her lack of criminal record, the abuse and
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the influence of her husband, and her somewhat secondary role
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: were factors. She's unlikely to reoffend. Carla left the trial
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: after receiving the greed upon sentence and prepared herself for
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: what was sure to be an ordeal, the trial of
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: her husband Paul.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Unlikely to re offend, Yeah, that doesn't mean you should
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: be fucking forgiven or let out in public. Yeah you
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: can still go fucking kill someone just because you're unlikely
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: to fuck off.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like just because you're unlikely too. You did
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: all this bad shit and should you just be living
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a life like people who haven't done that ship exactly.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: It's like I just killed and raped, like or evolved
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: in raping and killing combination of like twelve people. Yeah,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I served a couple of years. Now let's go get
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: white Claws and have some fucking hot dogs out of Costco.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Like what the fuck?
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: No, well she had to, like I mean I mentioned
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: at the end when she had kids. Yeah, those kids
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: are gonna fuck. They could listen to this podcast one
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: day and be like, Wow, that's my mom.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Your mom did some bad shit, really bad shit.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: So this is this is interesting. The trial of Paul
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: wouldn't start until May of nineteen ninety five, mainly due
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: to the fact, Oh sorry, the.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Fact should have leaned away from the mic. If you
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: get a burp.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think I burped. It was just like a
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: weird I don't know, a.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Weird what out of body experience.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it was.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Death.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: He almost died, Okay, So mainly due to the fact
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: that Paul had placed his lawyer Ken in a very
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: difficult ethical situation. Oh, Paul had told Ken where to
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: get the videotapes, or to where the videotapes were, and
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: to get them.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, so he's all like, get them and destroy them
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: for me, get rid of the evidence.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, motherfucker, believing that by doing this they would never
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: get into the hands of the prosecutors. However, Carla had
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: made these videotapes known to the prosecutors, so eventually the
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: pressure was too much and Ken withdrew from the case.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: And he still had the videotapes and he handed them
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: over to Paul's next law John Rosen, who quickly turned
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: them in good. So Carla's plea bargain was especially criticized
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: by many Canadians because of this. The videotapes were withheld
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: for seventeen months and considered critical evidence. Well no prosecutors
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: said they would never have agreed to the plea bargain
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: if they had seen those tapes, because she was very
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: much so active. Ken Murray Murray, that's the lawyer, the
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: original lawyer of Paul, was later acquitted of obstruction of
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: justice and faced a disciplinary hearing by the Laws Society
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: of Upper Canada.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: I was waiting to hear something. He was yeah, good, good.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Like I mean Paul played him though, like he kind
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: of played him because he was like wanting to defend
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: his his what would you call that, what would you
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: call their relafe? Yeah? I think but then if he
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: turned those in, like he wouldn't definitely like the case
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: would have been fucked basically, right.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: But he's also a human. Yeah, he's now defending what
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: he's guaranteed to know that someone who's fucking murdered and raped.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: He has the evidence to show that, and he's still
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: going to defend that.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: I'm at least glad that he's at least stepped back
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: and passed the.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Tapes on he realized, I mean, it took him a
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: way too long, but he realized.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: He didn't do the right thing, but he didn't do
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the wrong thing. Yeah, you know what I mean.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, with the videotapes as critical pieces of evidence,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Paul faced two counts of first agree murder, murder murder,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: two counts of aggravated sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: two counts of kidnapping, and one count of performing an
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: indignity on a human body. And I'm not going to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: go into a lot of detail here. Yeah, please don't, well,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: like just what the case is.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, Okay, I thought you were taking talk.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: He's fucked we already know that with the videos and
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Carla testifying, the prosecutors had some very powerful evidence to
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: convict Paul of the charges, and the defense would attack
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Carla's credibility with the goal of showing that she was
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: not the victim she portrayed herself to be, but a
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: willing participant, regardless of the degree of Carla's guilt or innocence.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: On September first, nineteen ninety five, Paul was convicted on
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: all the charges against him regarding the kidnappings, rapes and
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: murders of Leslie. Makes say it wrong again, No, but I.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Was just wanting to mock you again. I was really
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: waiting for that chance her again.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: So rapes and murders of Leslie and Kristen. He also
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: faced trials and the death of Tammy and the serial
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: rapes of the rapes of Scarborough. Sentenced to life in
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: prison without parole for at least twenty five years. He
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: was designated a dangerous offender, making him very unlikely to
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: ever be released.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Very unlikely.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: It should be well unlikely, very likely he will still
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: in there.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Good. He's fucking rotten there. He's getting sodomized by some
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: like really big dude.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I didn't even put that on there. Like he
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: was always secluded because I think isn't it that people
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: who rape, especially like rape children basically like they don't
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: have a fun time in prison do that?
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, they generally end up beaten and killed.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was always secluded, but there was odd times,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: like I think there was an attack on him when
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: he was like coming back from the shower, or like
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a mob one time started trying to get at him.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't like rainbows in there for him good.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Since being in prison, he has also admitted to even
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: more sexual assaults of course, and there's a lengthly list
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: of other potential victims, including a rape that occurred in Hawaii. Well,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: the couple was honeymoon honeymooning there, Jesus, So they raped
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: someone while they were of honeymooning, which I think is
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: so fucked no kidding. Paul became eligible for day parol
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, in full parole in twenty eighteen, but
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: he was denied good. His next parole hearing took place
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: on June twenty second, twenty twenty one.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: So just a couple days ago.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: So this case like was just in the news. It
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: took only one hour of deliberation, but the judge for
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: his application was turned down. A fuck you, Paul, the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: judge turned his application down. As for Carla, she had
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: to serve her full twelve years, which is good. She
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: never did get like the parole after three years. I
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: think because of stuff that came up with like the
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: videos and stuff, they like realized they can probably fucked
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: up with her. So they did make her stay the
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: whole twelve years, which is good. But she was released
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: from prison in two thousand and five and she now
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: goes by the name of Leanne Borderless something like that,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: and is married with two children. And she keeps getting
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: like being in places and then like being discovered. I think, yeah,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: so they like move around a lot. Right now, they're
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: in Oh my gosh, saw a buried the valley field
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: or something, and it's a city in southwestern Quebec. She
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: didn't actually live in Canada for a period, like she
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: was in the Caribbean and stuff. But they came back the.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Caribbean or Caribbean. It's like tomato tomato.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know actually which one now.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Some people say one, some say the other. Like pirates
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: of the Caribbean or Pirates.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Of the Caribbean, Caribbean Caribbean. I would probably say, yeah,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: and this is just an interesting tidbit too that might
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: make you like, feo, Carla's better, but you know, the
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: like psychopath checklist or the score you can get. Yeah,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: so Paul's were thirty five out of forty and Carla
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: was five out of forty. Huh, I actually want to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: take it. What happened to my score? To high?
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: It'd be like, holy would be surprised.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: What do you mean You wouldn't be surprised.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: You're generally really good at tests. You'd get a good score.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: I'd want to try to get a good score. So yeah,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: there you have it.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Well, those people are are trash. What's her name now,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Leslie or something? Which one Carla's new name, oh.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Leanne Leanne. Yeah. So if there's a Leanne that you
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: know living in southwestern Quebec, you maybe might want to
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: ask her a couple questions.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, be like do you rape those people?
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I wouldn't want her to be my neighbor.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: But then there was people that said that she was
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: actually like a pretty good neighbor, like quiet, She's probably
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: quiet as.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Fuck, probably keeps to herself as best as she can,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I would imagine.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: So you're like, I feel like your almost team Carla
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: not being manipulated quite badly by Paul, aren't you.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Oh no, she was one hundredercent kuilty. She was definitely
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: she did it on her own free will.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: And you think she should have got more than twelve years?
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. I think the only way Paul
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: really manipulated her. I'm sure she was abused to some degree,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: but I think the only way that he really manipulated
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: her in the way she was a victim is she
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: just loved him and just did what. Yeah, like she
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: feelings is what got her in it.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: After being beaten and stuff. She stayed for some time
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: like that last summer. Basically, yeah, she did divorce.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Him, well, even before any beatings or abuse came, Like
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: when they were first getting together in stuff and he
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: first brought up the whole prospect of like fucking raping
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: people and stuff, and she's like, oh, that's cool.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I know, that's that's on cool, Like she could have
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: ran for the hill.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's on her because that's her feet. I
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: understand she's getting like physically abused mentally abused later on,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: and that's some serious trap shit that it's really hard
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: to get out of. That's on Paul. But shit where
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: she's just like, oh that's cool. Nah, that's on you.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: You are a victim there more so well not that
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: she's not a victim of abuse, she is abuse, but yeah,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: getting roped in is the love factor. The honeymoon stage
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: is what roped her in.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: And I mean I think more influ Like I learned
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: so much and there's even things that I left out
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: because I didn't want this to be like five hours long,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: but something that came back, Like Paul was good at
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: charming and manipulating people even when he was in prison.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: At one point he almost got married to someone. Fuck
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: like you might you could look up that article or whatever,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: and I don't think it actually happened. And this person
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: was like an educated person. I mean Carlo was smart too,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: but like she literally believed that he was like he
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: made her believe that he was innocent. Wow, Like so
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: I mean he had he had some power, he had
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: some charm to him for sure.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: Well he's hopefully in he rot forever and hopefully Laura Leslie,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: what was her fucking name again, the new one. Yes,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: you don't remember it either.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: No, because I don't care about her she is.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: I'm terrible with names.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Will I was going to say Leanne was the only.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Reason I'm wanting to say her name multiple times is
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: because I want to fucking out her.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Leanne bordialis b O R D E l A. I S.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: There you go, her being out. I hope that she
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: keeps getting found out, and I hope that she has
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: to keep moving, and I hope that she has to
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: keep hiding.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also don't think that she's going to
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: ever make like another stink.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: She better not.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I would be surprised if she ever came up again.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: She better fucking not. So anyway, that's that well done
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: your first two parter.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I get myself in to. I think that's why I
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: was putting this case all getting around. Thank you, Thank you.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: It's fine.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Well here, cheers for that two parter.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Cheers, and I can drink my white claw ye and make.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Sure you guys come back for the next episode and
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: make sure.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: You stay wicked.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I know