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CrimeCon Live: ‘Making a Murderer’ DA Ken Kratz & detective Tom Fassbender · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:04
Speaker 1: Making a Murderer? Is Stephen Avery guilty or innocent? The
0:09
Speaker 1: Netflix documentary Making a Murderer follows the real life case
0:13
Speaker 1: of Stephen Avery, but it may be missing key evidence
0:16
Speaker 1: that tells you what kind of tunnel vision they had.
0:19
Speaker 1: Avery is serving a life sentence for the two thousand
0:21
Speaker 1: five murder of photographer Teresa Habbak. This is Crime Stories
0:25
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Stephen Avery's attorney looks to get a
0:28
Speaker 1: new trial for her client. Kathleen Zellner lays out six
0:32
Speaker 1: reasons why she believes Stephen Avery deserves a new trial.
0:35
Speaker 1: Factors include the prosecutor's handling of the case, specifically mentioning
0:40
Speaker 1: Ken Kratz, accusing him of withholding evidence from the defense
0:44
Speaker 1: crusa Habbak was targeted by Steven every Zellner also points
0:48
Speaker 1: to an ex boyfriend of Hallbox, suggesting he is the
0:50
Speaker 1: one responsible for killing her. Stephen Avery Innocent or guilty.
0:57
Speaker 1: I remember when a young girl, beautiful, short brown hair,
1:03
Speaker 1: big brown eyes, was just a missing person and we
1:09
Speaker 1: highlighted it on my show on CNN's h l in.
1:14
Speaker 1: Little did I know that was the beginning of a
1:17
Speaker 1: case that would have reverberations even now that girl, Teresa Hallback,
1:25
Speaker 1: her killer, Stephen Avery. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime
1:30
Speaker 1: Stories and we are podcasting live from Crime Con two thousand.
1:35
Speaker 1: Who or as my twins go, they don't even know
1:42
Speaker 1: what they're doing. They go, they don't even know what
1:46
Speaker 1: that means, and they'll go, it's so funny, oh man.
1:52
Speaker 1: And when I think about them, I think about Teresa
1:54
Speaker 1: Hallback's family. Okay, what would you do? You pour all
2:01
Speaker 1: your life, all your hopes, all your dreams, all your
2:05
Speaker 1: energy in that right, Renee? How many times have you
2:07
Speaker 1: come over to our house even though she is a
2:09
Speaker 1: defense lawyer, and I'm doing homework, I mean the floor
2:13
Speaker 1: making a project. Oh trouble, big trouble. Yeah. I can't
2:18
Speaker 1: believe they give them that kind of project to the
2:19
Speaker 1: third grade. I was doing that as a senior in
2:21
Speaker 1: high school, like I've certainly mastered the staple gun in
2:25
Speaker 1: the hot glue thanks to their third grade teacher. And
2:29
Speaker 1: then they're just taken and brutally, brutally raped and murdered
2:38
Speaker 1: with me today, the lead investigator on the Stephen Avery case,
2:42
Speaker 1: Tom Fastbender, also with me, the creator of Up and Vanished,
2:49
Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay with me veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell out
2:55
Speaker 1: of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and of course Alan the Duke
2:59
Speaker 1: Duke with his radio voice straight from his posh pad
3:03
Speaker 1: penthouse in l A. I want to talk about Stephen
3:09
Speaker 1: Avery because at the launch of Crime Con two thousand
3:14
Speaker 1: seventeen here in Indianapolis, we learn that there is a
3:19
Speaker 1: brand new, high paid lawyer, well known, high profile that
3:26
Speaker 1: has written written a one thousand page plus defense brief
3:32
Speaker 1: claiming out of the blue that Teresa Halbacks ex boyfriend
3:39
Speaker 1: is the real killer. Okay, let me just tell you
3:42
Speaker 1: something that's not true, that is not true, because let's
3:47
Speaker 1: how much sense does that make, Tom because we know
3:52
Speaker 1: and this is by Stephen Avery's and that Stephen Avery
3:56
Speaker 1: is the focus of Netflix. And I sure don't want
3:59
Speaker 1: to make them it at me, but they probably already
4:01
Speaker 1: are Netflix making a murder suggesting after thousands of hours
4:08
Speaker 1: of videoing, thousands of hours of videoing, they cobble it
4:14
Speaker 1: together to make it look like Stephen Avery is innocent
4:18
Speaker 1: and that is just killing me. And what do you
4:21
Speaker 1: think her Toresa Hallback's family is feeling about all this.
4:25
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend for a moment, let's suspend our disbelief
4:29
Speaker 1: if the ex boyfriend had killed her. On Stephen Avery's
4:34
Speaker 1: words to me, I interviewed him on TV when she
4:38
Speaker 1: was just missing. He told me, Stephen Avery told me
4:42
Speaker 1: Theresa Hallback came to his auto salvage yard business that day,
4:48
Speaker 1: that she took the pictures and left. Okay, he told
4:52
Speaker 1: me that to my face. I was going easy because
4:57
Speaker 1: I didn't want him just to get up and leave
4:58
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show, you know, I wanted
5:01
Speaker 1: at least ask him some questions. So I asked him,
5:04
Speaker 1: you know what, hippen blah blah blah blah. And then
5:07
Speaker 1: I get to him, like, now, let me understand something.
5:10
Speaker 1: Her car is found at the edge of your auto
5:13
Speaker 1: salvage lot, hidden under Like was it plywood and trees?
5:17
Speaker 1: What was it? Hidden trees? Branches? He goes that's right.
5:23
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's a coincidence that her car is
5:28
Speaker 1: found on your lot. He goes, yeah, I was framed.
5:31
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, so they found the car fairly quickly.
5:35
Speaker 1: So the way your lot is such because I looked
5:38
Speaker 1: it up, is situated. To get in your lot, don't
5:41
Speaker 1: you have to pass your office. He goes, uh huh,
5:44
Speaker 1: and I'm like, didn't you just tell me that you
5:47
Speaker 1: were in the office the whole day and you never
5:49
Speaker 1: saw anybody come in. That's the only way in and out.
5:55
Speaker 1: Then he started backing off and getting all be fuddled.
5:57
Speaker 1: He remember now he told me that she came and
6:00
Speaker 1: took the pictures. But then he's got we've got him
6:05
Speaker 1: star sixty seven himself where you hide your phone number?
6:08
Speaker 1: Calling her number, and then what I think, after she's dead,
6:14
Speaker 1: he leaves the message and correct me if I got
6:15
Speaker 1: it wrong. He leaves a message saying, hey, this is
6:18
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. Why didn't you show up? Well, he didn't
6:22
Speaker 1: leave a message. What he did do he called the number.
6:26
Speaker 1: He did not use the star sixty seven feature on
6:28
Speaker 1: the call after she had been abducted already after two
6:32
Speaker 1: thirty quarter to three, when Teresa was seen at the
6:36
Speaker 1: residence by his nephew walking to his Stephen Avery's house.
6:41
Speaker 1: Well then later about four thirty, he makes that call
6:44
Speaker 1: without Star sixty seven because he wants it to be
6:47
Speaker 1: seen and that we believe it was an alibi call. Okay,
6:51
Speaker 1: So him telling me one story is completely opposite, and
6:56
Speaker 1: that happened often early on where Stephen made and told
6:59
Speaker 1: different stories. What were some of the stories with me?
7:02
Speaker 1: Is Tom Fastbander the lead detective on the Steve Avery case? Okay?
7:08
Speaker 1: Which Netflix has? You know? No offense made people believe
7:14
Speaker 1: that the prosecutor set out to get the wrong person.
7:17
Speaker 1: Why what joy is it and getting the wrong person
7:20
Speaker 1: behind bars when the right person is walking free and
7:24
Speaker 1: you have an innocent person behind bars. So tell me
7:28
Speaker 1: how the whole thing went down? Tom, Well, initially on
7:31
Speaker 1: that day, this was Halloween two thousand five, Stephen Avery
7:35
Speaker 1: meekes a call to auto trader where Teresa worked, not
7:38
Speaker 1: using Star sixty seven. Not using Star sixty seven, he
7:41
Speaker 1: calls the the office auto trader. He asks Auto Traders
7:45
Speaker 1: send out the same girl that had been there before.
7:48
Speaker 1: He provides a different name beyond not his own name.
7:52
Speaker 1: We whoa, whoa, I didn't know that, or I forgot it.
7:55
Speaker 1: I know so much about the case, I forgot it. Okay,
7:58
Speaker 1: So so we used the fake name. Well, it was
8:00
Speaker 1: actually his sister's name. Beyond a bar beyond he uses
8:04
Speaker 1: her name for a van that she owned that he
8:07
Speaker 1: allegedly is going to sell. What we later learned that
8:10
Speaker 1: was Barbaraly didn't want that van sold, so start thinking
8:14
Speaker 1: about this. He also provides her phone number, not his
8:17
Speaker 1: phone number. And there was the van was the van
8:21
Speaker 1: and a lot. The the van was outside of between
8:24
Speaker 1: their houses, so he didn't he wouldn't give his own name.
8:27
Speaker 1: He wouldn't give his own and he gave her phone number.
8:32
Speaker 1: And the people at auto Trader said, the one that
8:35
Speaker 1: took the call said, he talked funny, like he was
8:38
Speaker 1: trying to disguise a voice. She couldn't tell whether it
8:41
Speaker 1: was a man or a woman. Why is he doing
8:45
Speaker 1: this now? This is before she comes, This is before
8:49
Speaker 1: she comes, and isn't it true Tom, that she did
8:51
Speaker 1: not want to go, that she had been out there
8:54
Speaker 1: for auto Trader before and she thought it was creepy.
8:57
Speaker 1: She felt he was creepy um because he had come
9:00
Speaker 1: to the door with a towel on only. Oh lord, okay,
9:05
Speaker 1: very um revealing guys, Please don't do that, and it
9:10
Speaker 1: does not make the impression you think it does. Okay,
9:13
Speaker 1: go ahead, and I want to care she I actually
9:17
Speaker 1: went to the host and he pointed to pictures on
9:20
Speaker 1: the wall of females and said, someday you're going to
9:22
Speaker 1: be on their wall. According to what Teresa told her
9:26
Speaker 1: co workers at Donald Treger UM, So, yeah, she felt
9:30
Speaker 1: these a little creepy. She didn't seem to think he
9:34
Speaker 1: would do anything, but yeah, you know, I was just
9:37
Speaker 1: talking to her name about this earlier. Um Sometimes and
9:41
Speaker 1: when I look back on the things that I have done,
9:43
Speaker 1: looking back, I'm like, why did I do that? That
9:46
Speaker 1: was so stupid And I didn't think anything about it
9:50
Speaker 1: at the time. And even with those feelings, she went ahead,
9:54
Speaker 1: probably didn't want to lose her job and goes out
9:56
Speaker 1: to take the pictures at his salvage lot. Okay, then
9:59
Speaker 1: what happ What do we know? Then? What we know
10:02
Speaker 1: is that she got there about two thirty quarter to three,
10:05
Speaker 1: somewhere in that vicinity. And prior to that, just prior
10:10
Speaker 1: to that, stephen Aby makes the two phone calls to
10:14
Speaker 1: her cell phone and uh, he's a Star sixty seven
10:18
Speaker 1: does not make contact. Okay, So at least I got
10:20
Speaker 1: that part right. You were right he was making her
10:23
Speaker 1: calls to her on Star sixty seven. Why his His
10:27
Speaker 1: explanation was to find out where she was or to
10:29
Speaker 1: confirm whether she was coming, But she didn't answer. Why
10:32
Speaker 1: did the Star sixty seven time. I'm not sure. My
10:35
Speaker 1: theory is he was so worked up in anticipation of
10:39
Speaker 1: her being there that the last time I used Star
10:42
Speaker 1: sixty seven time, my husband refused to answer cell phone.
10:45
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're fighting about something to do with the twins. Oh,
10:48
Speaker 1: he gave John David a melitonin last night. He's nine,
10:55
Speaker 1: so you're gonna end up on the Nancy Grade Show.
11:00
Speaker 1: So he wouldn't answer the phone. I'm like, mmmmm a
11:03
Speaker 1: Star sixties seven and he picked up. But I'm like, ah, hey,
11:09
Speaker 1: I'm up anyway. So why I mean, I know I'm projecting,
11:14
Speaker 1: but why do you use Star sixty seven to hide
11:16
Speaker 1: your number if not for some ulterior motive? Right, Okay,
11:21
Speaker 1: So he calls her twice. Did she pick up? She
11:24
Speaker 1: didn't to to our knowledge, she did not pick up. Okay.
11:26
Speaker 1: Then what happened? Well, then she gets there, she does
11:30
Speaker 1: her job, takes a picture of the van, and she's
11:34
Speaker 1: not seen again except by Bobby Dassy, his nephew who
11:38
Speaker 1: lives right next door. I thought it was Brendon Dassey.
11:41
Speaker 1: This is Bobby. This is Bobby. Wasn't involved in this, okay,
11:47
Speaker 1: But there is a very important information from a family
11:49
Speaker 1: member who works third shift. He gets up to go hunting.
11:53
Speaker 1: He looks out the window and he sees Teresa and
11:57
Speaker 1: Teresa taking pictures of this van. No, it's it, And
12:00
Speaker 1: then he sees Teresa walking to Stephen Averys trailer right
12:04
Speaker 1: next door. He goes back in the house, gets his
12:07
Speaker 1: hunting stuff on, he leaves, and when he leaves, Teresa's
12:10
Speaker 1: car is there, and Teresa is not around, and Stephen
12:13
Speaker 1: Avery is not around, and he leaves and go hunting.
12:16
Speaker 1: When he comes home later, the car is not there,
12:19
Speaker 1: and other people don't The time of the day was
12:21
Speaker 1: that that he observed Teresa there about two thirty quarter
12:24
Speaker 1: to three. When is she reported missing? She's reported missing
12:30
Speaker 1: on November three, Thursday, and this happened on October thirty one,
12:35
Speaker 1: so she's reported missing three days later, all right, and
12:41
Speaker 1: her car is found on his lot? Correct? Okay, let
12:44
Speaker 1: me ask about that night and the fire pit. Okay,
12:48
Speaker 1: So Avery, Stephen Avery, I don't understand this, okay. And
12:53
Speaker 1: I grew up in the country. I did not know
12:55
Speaker 1: anybody that had a firehole in the backyard. When we's
12:59
Speaker 1: a fire pit, what is that basically was a mound
13:02
Speaker 1: of dirt that he had taken like a skid ster
13:05
Speaker 1: with a front end, scoop on it and scooped out
13:07
Speaker 1: a big section of the dirt in the middle. That's
13:10
Speaker 1: where they would have fires. Why fires? For what bonfires get?
13:15
Speaker 1: The kids? Are the nephews over and people stand around it?
13:18
Speaker 1: Are you serious, Wisconsin? I know, I know. I grew
13:21
Speaker 1: up in the middle of nowhere. Let me tell you something.
13:23
Speaker 1: I mean, we drew grew up on a red dirt
13:25
Speaker 1: road and my grandfather dug the well and our water
13:27
Speaker 1: would be red. Okay, But can anybody attest to having
13:33
Speaker 1: bonfires in his backyard? Yes, they've had previous, Okay, fine,
13:37
Speaker 1: all right, they have fires. So he's got a fire pit,
13:40
Speaker 1: which is a hole in the dirt. Is it true, Tom,
13:45
Speaker 1: that family or relatives or friends saw Stephen Avery tending
13:52
Speaker 1: stirring a fire in the fire pit in the backyard
13:57
Speaker 1: the day Teresa Holbat was at the him Nancy. It
14:01
Speaker 1: is true. Both witnesses family told us about a large
14:06
Speaker 1: bonfire in that backyard. Steen seeing Stephen back there tending
14:12
Speaker 1: and watching the fire, and also seeing another person believed
14:14
Speaker 1: to be Brendan Dassy out there with him. Who and
14:18
Speaker 1: I recall interviewing or talking to someone that saw him
14:26
Speaker 1: tending the fire pit. And I think it was the
14:30
Speaker 1: girlfriend of a relative that saw him back there. Yes,
14:37
Speaker 1: that would have been a sister in law. I believe
14:40
Speaker 1: I saw the fire, didn't didn't go down fire enough
14:43
Speaker 1: to see him. And also his sister's boyfriend saw that
14:46
Speaker 1: that Okay, yes, and these then would be friends and
14:52
Speaker 1: family saw Stephen a Re tending the fire pit that night,
14:57
Speaker 1: both the fire and tending the fire pit being out there.
15:00
Speaker 1: And this is the reason I'm asking, is it true
15:04
Speaker 1: that in the fire pit were found the studs off
15:09
Speaker 1: her daisy fluentis jens and what parts of her body
15:13
Speaker 1: like teeth, bone that didn't burn? That is true, Nancy,
15:19
Speaker 1: the she she was wearing daisy flentis jeans. We believe
15:23
Speaker 1: five of these studs of the six on those genes
15:26
Speaker 1: we recovered, and that fire pit is along with her creamens. Unfortunately,
15:32
Speaker 1: what part of her could you actually get out of
15:34
Speaker 1: the fire. We had a forensic anthropologist do that exam
15:38
Speaker 1: and she found representative samples bones from every part of
15:42
Speaker 1: her body. Do you remember when I would do Arson's
15:47
Speaker 1: And they are so hard because first you have to
15:50
Speaker 1: prove a crime actually happened, that it wasn't an accident,
15:53
Speaker 1: and then you have to go from there and put
15:55
Speaker 1: it back together. Those are hard cases. Yeah, that's very
16:00
Speaker 1: hard to prove the case swin remains or eat the
16:03
Speaker 1: evidence has been burned. Okay, So we've got bones, We've
16:08
Speaker 1: got studs off her pants in the fire. Her bones
16:12
Speaker 1: in the fire, twenty five year old girl. Now this
16:17
Speaker 1: is something I always report on it, but I want
16:20
Speaker 1: to ask you about it. Her car had he is
16:24
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery's DNA on her car that was hidden back
16:29
Speaker 1: at the back of the lot. Is that right, Yes, Nancy,
16:31
Speaker 1: that's correct. There were four areas in her car, inside
16:34
Speaker 1: her car that had his blood, which he denied ever
16:38
Speaker 1: being in the car, that is, And so there are
16:41
Speaker 1: four different areas imported that he denied it. Because if
16:44
Speaker 1: it's innocent, I lie about it. Okay, I didn't mean interrupt.
16:48
Speaker 1: Go ahead. Where are the four areas in front of
16:50
Speaker 1: the car, between the seats and also by the ignition switch.
16:54
Speaker 1: And this is a really big point. I thought that
16:56
Speaker 1: was sweat d NA, This was blood blood. Let me
16:59
Speaker 1: write it now, Okay, go ahead, by the ignition switch
17:03
Speaker 1: where you would put the key in there was a
17:05
Speaker 1: swipe pattern of blood, and that means you have an
17:08
Speaker 1: active bleeder who is swiping making contact with that surface.
17:13
Speaker 1: And if you look at where we later found an
17:15
Speaker 1: injury on his middle finger, right hand, a cut that
17:19
Speaker 1: that was fairly recent. And if you look at where
17:22
Speaker 1: that cut was and you put the key in that
17:24
Speaker 1: ignition switch and you turn it, it lines up almost
17:27
Speaker 1: perfectly with that swipe of blood on the plastic. But
17:31
Speaker 1: let me understand. So you put the key and you
17:33
Speaker 1: turn it, and you're saying the blood was like that,
17:35
Speaker 1: it would swipe along the plasts. How are the cops
17:39
Speaker 1: going to plant that? I mean, it's just like when
17:41
Speaker 1: o J said they planted the dance. Yes, the cops
17:45
Speaker 1: screwed up in o J. Fine, but that does not
17:48
Speaker 1: mean Simpson didn't do it. Both things can be true here.
17:53
Speaker 1: I didn't know that intricate piece of evidence that the
17:57
Speaker 1: blood was in the swish and then turning the key.
18:01
Speaker 1: He turned the key, his finger came in contact with
18:04
Speaker 1: the plastic next to the ignition and swiped a pattern
18:08
Speaker 1: of blood. That is some good police work to find
18:11
Speaker 1: that little bit of blood in that pattern, and to
18:15
Speaker 1: find those uh studs and all of that that he
18:20
Speaker 1: was burning. Did he have tires in the burning tires?
18:23
Speaker 1: He burned tires, He burned a car seat, he burned wood.
18:27
Speaker 1: Obviously he actually burned her clothes and that fire, bedding,
18:32
Speaker 1: et cetera. Where Okay, So there was blood between the seats. Uh,
18:37
Speaker 1: there was blood between the two front seats. There's blood
18:39
Speaker 1: in the second roll of the seats is a rap
18:41
Speaker 1: four small suv right Uh near the I guess you
18:47
Speaker 1: were call the door panel. When the doors opened. At
18:49
Speaker 1: that panel there there was drops. Now again indicative of
18:54
Speaker 1: an active bleeder. You may open the door and he
18:57
Speaker 1: drops on the inside of that got annal their rocker
19:01
Speaker 1: panel on what you call it um so you get
19:04
Speaker 1: you're getting different patterns that are very indictive of an
19:08
Speaker 1: active bleeder. And if a police officer is going to
19:10
Speaker 1: do this, there's put some blood in there, right, but
19:13
Speaker 1: these are indicative of an active bleeder actually being in
19:15
Speaker 1: that car. And then in the back storage area there
19:19
Speaker 1: was some I believe I'm not sure, but I believe
19:23
Speaker 1: there was some blood back there. And there was a
19:25
Speaker 1: bullet in the garage with Teresa Hallback's DNA on its correct,
19:30
Speaker 1: that's correct. Nancy I'm gonna pause and thank are awesome
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20:51
Speaker 1: Here he is King Kratz speak of the devil and
20:54
Speaker 1: his amp shall soon appear, Ill John, Let's take questions.
21:02
Speaker 1: Guys who asked the question you're not going to hear
21:05
Speaker 1: from the lead investigator a whole lot Okay, in the
21:09
Speaker 1: back yeah, hold on, let me repeat it. We have
21:23
Speaker 1: a lady in the bat here, everybody. We're at Crime
21:26
Speaker 1: Con two thousand seventeen. We are with Tom who or
21:33
Speaker 1: I love it when they do that little because you
21:36
Speaker 1: know they don't even know what that means? What does
21:38
Speaker 1: it mean? I don't know did we did we ever
21:41
Speaker 1: know what it meant? Does that mean? Race? The roof
21:44
Speaker 1: is falling, raised the roof kind of thing, and then
21:46
Speaker 1: they run around, they'll get out of the bathtub. Does
21:49
Speaker 1: anyone still do that besides your twins? I don't know where.
21:53
Speaker 1: I don't think so anyway. Okay, So now we have
21:56
Speaker 1: it from Paine Lindsay and from his posh penthouse pad
22:01
Speaker 1: in l A telling me what that little thing? Okay
22:04
Speaker 1: with me? Tom Fastbender and now Ken Cross both on
22:07
Speaker 1: this case. I bet you're having a back flip with
22:11
Speaker 1: this new motion that's been filed trying to respond to that. Well,
22:15
Speaker 1: that's not something I ever will respond to, and I
22:17
Speaker 1: don't think I probably should. It's not not something that,
22:21
Speaker 1: uh that I need to to weigh in. It's obviously
22:24
Speaker 1: very troubling to see the kind of allegations that were made.
22:27
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've talked about. I'm sorry for coming
22:29
Speaker 1: in late, but happy to answer any questions to have
22:31
Speaker 1: her sure. Um okay, So the question of the bat
22:34
Speaker 1: from the lady is why didn't he crushed down the car?
22:40
Speaker 1: Okay me before I go to the expert. Probably because
22:44
Speaker 1: he knew the cops are watching him and he didn't
22:48
Speaker 1: have to go get it and take it to a
22:50
Speaker 1: facility unless he could crush them there. Could he crush
22:52
Speaker 1: the cars there? Tom, Yes, I don't know why, but
22:56
Speaker 1: that would kind of give it away, huh if they
22:58
Speaker 1: found it crushed pace, I don't know why. What do
23:01
Speaker 1: you think what happened is the week prior to that
23:04
Speaker 1: or there about Stephen actually went down to the pit
23:08
Speaker 1: and crush some cars in that car crushing car crusher
23:11
Speaker 1: makes a car crushed car sandwich. There's about six of
23:14
Speaker 1: them in there. He crushed two or three. Our belief
23:17
Speaker 1: as he was preparing for this and he was, you know,
23:21
Speaker 1: by all means going to crush this car. Brendan told
23:23
Speaker 1: us that that was his intent. That was a good question.
23:27
Speaker 1: Think of this. The the our Salva yard is a
23:30
Speaker 1: business and it's operating for business. So he takes the
23:32
Speaker 1: car down here, he hides it on Monday night. If
23:35
Speaker 1: he goes down there starts crushing this thing. This is
23:37
Speaker 1: a big diesel type car crushing. People are gonna hear that.
23:39
Speaker 1: They're gonna know stuff's going on. But wait a minute,
23:42
Speaker 1: they would probably have heard it all the time anyway,
23:45
Speaker 1: and not thought a thing about it. By people, I'm saying,
23:47
Speaker 1: probably more his his brother's stuff on there wondering why
23:51
Speaker 1: Stevens down there crushing cars. But no, he did not,
23:55
Speaker 1: not a lot. It was. It was mainly the owner
23:57
Speaker 1: of the car crusher that did the crushing. But why
24:00
Speaker 1: do you think he was about to crush the car?
24:03
Speaker 1: Well number one, number one he indicated that to Brenda
24:06
Speaker 1: number two. He put that car right in the vicinity
24:09
Speaker 1: of the car crusher to make it easy to get
24:11
Speaker 1: to that car crusher, and he couldn't do it during
24:15
Speaker 1: the week. Then the cars are then that she's reported missing,
24:18
Speaker 1: and there's all these search teams out there. There's an
24:20
Speaker 1: airplane flying over checking things out. He's not gonna mess
24:23
Speaker 1: around there and he doesn't want to do it. Well.
24:25
Speaker 1: The business is open the weekend, the family goes up
24:28
Speaker 1: in northern Wisconsin to the cottage. Everyone clears out their
24:33
Speaker 1: clothes from noon Saturday to Monday. We have a telephone
24:37
Speaker 1: call where he indicates that he's thinking about coming back
24:40
Speaker 1: from the cabin up north on Saturday. Our belief is
24:42
Speaker 1: that's when he was going to go back when no
24:44
Speaker 1: one is around, and crushed the car. And he didn't
24:47
Speaker 1: get a chance because the car was found Saturday morning.
24:50
Speaker 1: And you know, another thing on the outside looking in,
24:54
Speaker 1: how many times the criminals say, oh, if I had
24:58
Speaker 1: just X looking back, he probably thinks I should have
25:04
Speaker 1: done it, like three o'clock in the morning one night.
25:06
Speaker 1: Why didn't I do it? But he had a plan
25:10
Speaker 1: and his own plan messed him up. I hadn't thought
25:12
Speaker 1: of that. And see, there's a pretty good opportunity that
25:16
Speaker 1: if you did crush the car, and everybody think about this, Uh,
25:19
Speaker 1: we probably wouldn't have fun in the car. If you
25:21
Speaker 1: don't find the car, we don't get the search warrant.
25:24
Speaker 1: If you don't get the search warrant, he gets away
25:25
Speaker 1: with the murder. So that's how close this case came
25:28
Speaker 1: to us never having it solved. Absolutely, Yes, ma'am admissioned
25:34
Speaker 1: that during the bonfire, in addition to her made there's
25:38
Speaker 1: a car seat, there's some times in there, right. Do
25:41
Speaker 1: you think that he always burned higher? Does that just?
25:45
Speaker 1: I know that when people are having I guess bonfires
25:48
Speaker 1: in their backyard, they they smell awful. She We've got
25:56
Speaker 1: a question about why would he burn are the tires?
26:01
Speaker 1: I think to get what to take away from the body.
26:04
Speaker 1: The more stuff you could throw on there, it would
26:06
Speaker 1: all burn down and be harder to find the body.
26:08
Speaker 1: But White, let's go ahead, Tom. Being in an auto
26:11
Speaker 1: salvage yard, it wasn't uncommon that they may burn tires occasionally.
26:16
Speaker 1: That night he did burn tires. That's verified through witness accounts.
26:20
Speaker 1: Tires burn hot, very hot, and they stink and they
26:25
Speaker 1: stink and a lot of smoke and they have some
26:29
Speaker 1: length to their burn. And we actually had our arson investigator,
26:33
Speaker 1: who's an expert in that area, testify to that about
26:35
Speaker 1: the that that would be an excellent fuel to burn
26:39
Speaker 1: what he burned. Also, the car seat has has that
26:43
Speaker 1: foam that that is also a very hot burning fuel,
26:47
Speaker 1: so the fuel was absolutely ideal for the job that
26:50
Speaker 1: he was doing. Yes, ma'am, Well there was the bullet,
26:58
Speaker 1: and the question is how did she die? Is that
27:01
Speaker 1: your question? I don't think so, because there was the
27:06
Speaker 1: bullet found in the garage with her DNA on it.
27:08
Speaker 1: And according to Dascy, the nephew who now there have
27:13
Speaker 1: been troubles with his conviction because it is now claimed
27:17
Speaker 1: he had a low i Q, which some of his
27:19
Speaker 1: tests showed he had a medium range i Q, and
27:22
Speaker 1: that he was tricked into giving a confession. I didn't
27:25
Speaker 1: seem very smart though, so I'm just that's what I
27:30
Speaker 1: got just from watching from watching him, So he's not smart.
27:34
Speaker 1: What does that mean? He can't kill somebody? I don't know.
27:36
Speaker 1: I think that it would make you think twice about
27:38
Speaker 1: his confession. I'm not saying that, did you go to
27:42
Speaker 1: law skill pack? No, but I can I can tell
27:46
Speaker 1: when someone's uh smart or not smart. Okay, I'm sorry,
27:49
Speaker 1: but I don't see. This is a disclaimer in the
27:51
Speaker 1: constitution said all the people that pay lindsay said they're
27:55
Speaker 1: not smart can't be prosecuted from her. You're correct, that's
27:58
Speaker 1: actually is actually a question for you guys. More so,
28:01
Speaker 1: let's keep she's the one that asked the question, and
28:07
Speaker 1: it's going somewhere. Did she die from a gunshot wound? Yes,
28:12
Speaker 1: she died from a gunshot wound. Uh. Of the fragments
28:15
Speaker 1: that were found in the fire, there were skeletal or
28:19
Speaker 1: cranial pieces. Our friendsic anthropologists found two bullet entrance wounds
28:24
Speaker 1: in pieces of those uh, those cranial bones indicative of
28:28
Speaker 1: entry wounds of of a bullet. We found the bullets
28:32
Speaker 1: or a bullet in the garage. I don't know if
28:34
Speaker 1: that's the exact bullet that went through it. Did it did,
28:39
Speaker 1: but we don't know if it's it went that's the
28:40
Speaker 1: exact bullet that went through the skullar and too other
28:42
Speaker 1: soft tissues or whatever got it. And I think importantly
28:46
Speaker 1: we never claimed that the bullet that was recovered was
28:49
Speaker 1: one of the two that went through the skull. Probably
28:52
Speaker 1: not as a matter of fact, because it as those
28:55
Speaker 1: of you know, twenty two caliburn ballistics, a bullet kind
28:59
Speaker 1: of rattles around on once it goes into a skull,
29:01
Speaker 1: and so that's why it likely would have remained inside
29:05
Speaker 1: and likely wouldn't have been the bullet that was recovered
29:08
Speaker 1: in the back that probably went through soft tissue. Although
29:10
Speaker 1: a DNA of Teresa went on there, probably not at
29:14
Speaker 1: one of the skull of UH projectiles UH. Nor did
29:19
Speaker 1: we ever claim that, despite what ms Elner putting in
29:22
Speaker 1: her brief a couple of days ago. So that's I
29:24
Speaker 1: think an important So here's my question. If you're on
29:26
Speaker 1: the jury, that's how you get bogged down and the
29:30
Speaker 1: the intricacies of the case. This is what I need
29:33
Speaker 1: to know. A bullet but to raise the Hallbocks, d
29:37
Speaker 1: n A is in Avery's garage and her body has
29:44
Speaker 1: been incinerated. She's dead, burned dead. So this was done
29:48
Speaker 1: before she was burned. And I don't care if it
29:50
Speaker 1: went through her brain or where it went through. I
29:52
Speaker 1: know she's dead and there's a bullet with her DNA
29:55
Speaker 1: on it. But Dassy, in his statement which I have
29:59
Speaker 1: watched some of it's on most of us on video,
30:02
Speaker 1: I think, said that Stephen Avery either tied or chained
30:08
Speaker 1: her to a bit, cut off her hair, raped her
30:13
Speaker 1: as she's chained there, then made Dascy rape her. According
30:18
Speaker 1: to Dacy, he was forced and then Avery shot her
30:24
Speaker 1: dead and he looked away. Where is Renee still in here?
30:30
Speaker 1: Renee stand up? How many times have I prosecuted cases
30:33
Speaker 1: where at that exact crucial moment, like the shitty my
30:37
Speaker 1: chief witness looked away? Why would you look away at
30:41
Speaker 1: that moment because they don't want to testify it. So
30:47
Speaker 1: when I heard he looked away at the moment, that
30:51
Speaker 1: one moment, I didn't believe that. But that is what
30:55
Speaker 1: Teresa endured before her death. This was a very traumatic
30:59
Speaker 1: event for this young man. He didn't want to go there,
31:02
Speaker 1: and he actually talked about when he was younger, the
31:06
Speaker 1: family had to kill a family cat and he had, uh,
31:10
Speaker 1: you know, he couldn't launch that. He couldn't see that,
31:13
Speaker 1: and that was very traumatic to him. So when we
31:16
Speaker 1: asked him, did you didn't have trouble raping her tom
31:20
Speaker 1: chained to a bed? No? I may excuse me, but no, no,
31:24
Speaker 1: he didn't. Okay, So I don't want to traumatize Brendan
31:28
Speaker 1: Dacy any further. But he did rate Teresa hallback as
31:32
Speaker 1: she was chained to a bed, and I was that right?
31:35
Speaker 1: That's correct? Okay, question MC there in the bat Let
31:47
Speaker 1: me repeat, A gentleman in the bat wants to know,
31:50
Speaker 1: is that the third confession where he talked about shooting
31:55
Speaker 1: that's a good question. Yes, well that that's a good question. Uh,
32:01
Speaker 1: we don't have enough time to talk about the whole
32:03
Speaker 1: interviews and all of the interviews. He's trying to pin
32:05
Speaker 1: you down, but suggests that you fan it to him,
32:10
Speaker 1: and if if you did just that is not unconstitutional.
32:15
Speaker 1: I don't like it. But when somebody just sits there
32:19
Speaker 1: and go, finally, did you shoot her in the head?
32:22
Speaker 1: Didn't you? And you're waiting for an answer, I mean
32:26
Speaker 1: I could hear myself saying something like that. Is somebody
32:29
Speaker 1: wouldn't answer me. Well, the question what he's talking about
32:33
Speaker 1: is we asked several times what else happened to her?
32:37
Speaker 1: What else happened to something with the head? And he
32:40
Speaker 1: talked about cutting her neck, he talked about punching her
32:43
Speaker 1: and Steven's not him, but Stephen strangling her. And then
32:47
Speaker 1: my partner asked, well, all right, who shot her in
32:50
Speaker 1: the head? Okay, he had every right and opportunity to
32:58
Speaker 1: say I don't know, or or nobody I didn't. What
33:03
Speaker 1: did he respond to that? Almost immediately he did? Stephen,
33:07
Speaker 1: he did. And then when asked to elaborate on that
33:10
Speaker 1: he said he shot her with his twenty two. And
33:14
Speaker 1: the point here is that twenty two, that bullet we
33:17
Speaker 1: found forensically matched up with Steven Averso which was above
33:21
Speaker 1: his headboard in his bedroom, which is where Brendan told
33:25
Speaker 1: us that twenty two was the statements he made before
33:29
Speaker 1: the shooting in the head question. Only Brendan knows whether
33:33
Speaker 1: those are true. We did not feed him them statements.
33:37
Speaker 1: We just kept asking what happened? Something happened to her head.
33:41
Speaker 1: We didn't say, did this happen to her head? He
33:44
Speaker 1: told us I cut her neck, I punched or he
33:46
Speaker 1: punched her, et cetera. You know what, I want to
33:49
Speaker 1: honor what he's saying there in the back, Sir, Could
33:52
Speaker 1: you stand back up again? Because when you say the
33:55
Speaker 1: Netflix documentary, it looks so real. And I would have
34:05
Speaker 1: questions too if I didn't already know what I knew.
34:09
Speaker 1: You know, if I didn't already know about the case
34:11
Speaker 1: and had not investigated the case and talked to Avery himself,
34:17
Speaker 1: I might have gotten taken in hook line and Sinker.
34:20
Speaker 1: So tell me what are you trying to ask? Do
34:23
Speaker 1: you think Brendan Dacy was forced to give and I
34:27
Speaker 1: don't care. I don't care the answer. Do you think
34:29
Speaker 1: it was forced to give a confession? Yes, I agree
34:45
Speaker 1: with you. You know you are with you some time,
34:57
Speaker 1: right da. I want to finish here what he's saying. Okay,
35:09
Speaker 1: so let me ask you this. I agree. Wait a minute,
35:15
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question. So do you
35:18
Speaker 1: believe Avery is guilty? Okay? Let me ask you about this.
35:24
Speaker 1: Do you think Dascy raped Haulback? I don't know. I
35:33
Speaker 1: don't think Dascy shot her, and I don't think Dascy
35:36
Speaker 1: strangled her. I just don't. I don't know why. It's
35:40
Speaker 1: just gut feeling, but I do think he raped her
35:44
Speaker 1: because the way he said it was kind of like
35:46
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do it, but he made me
35:48
Speaker 1: do it. Why would Stephen involve printing at all? I
35:52
Speaker 1: don't know what this is to you, guys? Why do
35:55
Speaker 1: you think I'm gonna come back to you? Why do
35:57
Speaker 1: you think that that's confusing to me? To him? You
36:01
Speaker 1: don't hard to answer that question. Why would he involve?
36:04
Speaker 1: If you had to answer that question, why would Stephen
36:07
Speaker 1: do that? Yeah, this is the courtroom. If you would
36:12
Speaker 1: just what's your best hypothesis? I think he wanted a
36:15
Speaker 1: partner in crime. I think he wanted someone there. And
36:18
Speaker 1: why do you choose Brendan? Maybe he didn't have anybody else,
36:22
Speaker 1: Maybe both Dukes wasn't available. Maybe why why not Brendon?
36:28
Speaker 1: Because Brendan was easily manipulated and then easily convinced. Brendan
36:34
Speaker 1: was easily manipulated. Yes by him, that could be true.
36:38
Speaker 1: Pain lindsay that he is easily manipulated. But he could
36:42
Speaker 1: be manipulated and have rape to raise the hall back.
36:48
Speaker 1: Those could both be true. For the record, I think
36:51
Speaker 1: that Stephen is guilty. I'm just questioning Brendan's guilt. I
36:54
Speaker 1: think that he raped Hern did not kill her. And
36:57
Speaker 1: I think the fact that he was there but he
37:00
Speaker 1: got a jail for he went jail for murder because
37:04
Speaker 1: that is a felony murder. If I can weigh in
37:07
Speaker 1: on this, hey the hey do you thank you? Oh yeah,
37:11
Speaker 1: the prosecutor? Okay, Brendan was there and he helped. Those
37:18
Speaker 1: are the two putting it down into lay terms. Those
37:21
Speaker 1: are the two elements of piping and party to the crime.
37:24
Speaker 1: Was he there and did he help? Okay? And so
37:28
Speaker 1: in the Brendan Dascy prosecution, which is a separate prosecution
37:31
Speaker 1: from Avery. And by the way, most of you know
37:33
Speaker 1: that Brendan's statement was never used in the Steven every case,
37:36
Speaker 1: never presented at all, never even even brought that in
37:41
Speaker 1: Avery was convicted mostly on the forensic evidence, which was
37:45
Speaker 1: really compelling, So there wasn't any reason to do that. Well,
37:49
Speaker 1: we we tried to make a deal with Brendan. We
37:52
Speaker 1: tried to and because of of Brendan's Fifth Amendment rights
37:55
Speaker 1: against self incrimination, we either had to make a deal
37:58
Speaker 1: with him give him some kind of immunity, which we
37:59
Speaker 1: were willing to do. Uh. And Brendan rejected our last
38:04
Speaker 1: plea offer. We offered Brendon fifteen years in prison, which
38:09
Speaker 1: was he'd be out in about three years from now,
38:10
Speaker 1: by the way, and it wasn't Brendan who turned it down.
38:13
Speaker 1: Wasn't even his attorney who told him to turn it down.
38:16
Speaker 1: It was his grandfather who called him and said, you
38:18
Speaker 1: have to reject that plea bargain, not so much because
38:21
Speaker 1: what it does to your case, but because it hurts
38:25
Speaker 1: Steven's case, because it's going to hurt his chances of
38:29
Speaker 1: an acquittal. Uh. And we want you Brendan to go
38:32
Speaker 1: to We want you to go to trial on the
38:36
Speaker 1: first green intentional homicide. Even if you're convicted, it's better
38:40
Speaker 1: off for Stephen if you do that. Can you imagine
38:42
Speaker 1: a developmentally disabled sixteen year old who needs the support
38:46
Speaker 1: of his family members and the advice he gets is
38:50
Speaker 1: and talking about him being developmentally disabled, which he is,
38:55
Speaker 1: which he may be. I think, why aren't we talking
38:59
Speaker 1: about out the raped dead girl. I'm telling you because
39:03
Speaker 1: because it impacted his decision making. All right, it wasn't
39:08
Speaker 1: because of his behavior what he was convicted for, but
39:12
Speaker 1: after that, what was it? In a nutshell, Brendan Dacy
39:17
Speaker 1: involved himself in in the rape. I'm very convinced that
39:20
Speaker 1: he he convinced or excuse me, that that he raped Teresa.
39:24
Speaker 1: He also carried her out to the garage, participated, not
39:30
Speaker 1: in an active way, but participated in her death. They
39:33
Speaker 1: threw her in the back of her own, uh the
39:35
Speaker 1: own cargo area of her vehicle. And before they decided together,
39:39
Speaker 1: that is, Brendan and Stephen decided together that it was
39:42
Speaker 1: better to burn her than it was to put her
39:44
Speaker 1: in the pond. They were gonna put her body in
39:46
Speaker 1: the pond. They didn't think there was enough water in
39:48
Speaker 1: the pond, and so they made a joint decision, or
39:51
Speaker 1: at least a decision to burn the body. Brendan was
39:54
Speaker 1: involved throughout there was he the moving force. No, wol
39:57
Speaker 1: Brendan Dasky had done this himself. No, he's a sixty
40:00
Speaker 1: year old kid who likes playing video games. We've got
40:02
Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for Brendan Dascy. But after offering
40:05
Speaker 1: Brendan a fifteen year deal, after he turned it down
40:09
Speaker 1: and said prove it, go to trial, our hands were
40:11
Speaker 1: tied to Nancy and we had nothing left at that point.
40:15
Speaker 1: Then to go to trial, to convict him of his
40:19
Speaker 1: involvement and to leave it up to the judge what
40:21
Speaker 1: the the sentence was going to be. We never thought
40:23
Speaker 1: he should get life imprisonment. He didn't, but we were
40:27
Speaker 1: still upset and and today are still upset with the
40:30
Speaker 1: kind of advice that he got, which was really I
40:32
Speaker 1: think a disservice to that six year Right up here
40:34
Speaker 1: was the question, I'm sorry, what now? Okay? The question
40:52
Speaker 1: is why do I think Brandon was not coerced into
40:57
Speaker 1: having sex with Tory saw It. I think that Brendan
41:10
Speaker 1: Dascy raped Tersea Hallback. Okay, there's yeah, Okay. Apparently Tersea
41:31
Speaker 1: Hallback Tom was begging, please don't do this. Teresa Hollowaf
41:37
Speaker 1: was begging for life, crying, screaming. So I mean, yeah, well,
41:48
Speaker 1: he's a sixteen year old guy that watches TV, that
41:52
Speaker 1: plays video games, that is in school. I think he
41:56
Speaker 1: was still in school. Correct, he was still in school
41:59
Speaker 1: and he was operating. He had a couple of classes,
42:01
Speaker 1: one or two classes there were she's chained up, begging
42:07
Speaker 1: and crying to live. Um, I don't think that's having
42:12
Speaker 1: sex with somebody. I think that's raping them. Those of
42:15
Speaker 1: you that attended yesterday's session got to see Brendan Dacy
42:20
Speaker 1: in his own words, say that it was Stephen Avery
42:24
Speaker 1: that said, why don't you go ahead and have sex
42:26
Speaker 1: with her? And here's the troubling part. But this is
42:29
Speaker 1: this is where I'm going though. He said do it
42:31
Speaker 1: for me. You meagine an uncle saying that to a
42:34
Speaker 1: sixteen year old, I want you to do it for me.
42:37
Speaker 1: That might go to your your question before Nancy about
42:39
Speaker 1: trying to get him involved. You know, once he gets
42:42
Speaker 1: Brendan involved, he buys his silence, right, he buys his
42:46
Speaker 1: silence from that, Brendan Dacy made these statements um to
42:52
Speaker 1: law enforcement, and I'm jumping around here a little bit,
42:54
Speaker 1: but made these statements to law enforcement without the kind
42:56
Speaker 1: of coercion that you see. He made six difference patements
43:00
Speaker 1: to law enforcement. You saw snippets of one of them
43:03
Speaker 1: in making a Murderer. So unless you see the whole
43:05
Speaker 1: body of what it was that he said, including some
43:08
Speaker 1: of the clips that we showed yesterday, you're gonna come
43:11
Speaker 1: away with making a murderer with that same opinion. Well,
43:13
Speaker 1: they all the same statements or they all different. There
43:16
Speaker 1: were differences in all the statements. The important part was
43:19
Speaker 1: from the first statement on he clearly was lying in
43:22
Speaker 1: the first statement witness interview, not a suspect interview, clearly
43:27
Speaker 1: lying and clearly trying to protect Stephen. Second interview, he
43:30
Speaker 1: tells the truth about a few things. Clearly is lying
43:34
Speaker 1: about other things which we know from witness statements and
43:36
Speaker 1: physical evidence. Clearly still protecting Stephen Avery. Clearly something is
43:42
Speaker 1: bothering him physically, you can see it eyes, his reactions, everything.
43:47
Speaker 1: How do you know what the truth was is hurting him?
43:50
Speaker 1: How do I know that it's true? Well, here's an example.
43:53
Speaker 1: First statement, he denies a fire that week. We know
43:57
Speaker 1: there was a fire, We know he was by the fire, right, okay.
44:00
Speaker 1: Second interview he admits to a fire, but chooses to
44:04
Speaker 1: stay away from Monday Halloween and says it might have
44:06
Speaker 1: been Thursday or Wednesday. Third interview at the school, he
44:11
Speaker 1: starts admitting that he was out by the fire, now
44:14
Speaker 1: admits to it that it's Halloween, admits that he helped
44:18
Speaker 1: with the fire and saw body parts. Fourth interview at
44:21
Speaker 1: the at the resort, he finally admits to helping clean
44:25
Speaker 1: up using gasoline, paint, thinner and bleach in the garage
44:30
Speaker 1: and getting bleach on his pants, which we find and collaborate.
44:34
Speaker 1: So each interview, and it's important to recognize they were
44:37
Speaker 1: all witness interviews. We didn't treat him as a suspect.
44:39
Speaker 1: Even the start of the third day or the March
44:42
Speaker 1: first interview. We didn't think he was a suspect. We
44:45
Speaker 1: didn't think he was actively involved. We just thought he
44:48
Speaker 1: knew more. Why did we go March first or to
44:50
Speaker 1: the school, because we had indications that he was hurting,
44:53
Speaker 1: he was crying, he was losing weight. Something was bothering
44:56
Speaker 1: this boy. He was told he told his cousin about
45:01
Speaker 1: bad things about body parts, about the worry about blood
45:04
Speaker 1: coming up through concrete, uh, stuff like that, and that
45:07
Speaker 1: garage floor had cracks in it. Concrete garage floor. These
45:11
Speaker 1: are the things that we're leading us to keep talking
45:14
Speaker 1: to him in the knowledge that he was intentionally lying
45:18
Speaker 1: and intentionally not telling us the truth about stuff and
45:20
Speaker 1: probably protecting Stephen. Within fifteen minutes approximately of that interview
45:25
Speaker 1: on March one, he pretty much blows us away and
45:30
Speaker 1: tells us that he participated in the rape of of
45:34
Speaker 1: Teresa Halbach. We didn't feed him that. We were asking
45:38
Speaker 1: him questions about what happened. You know, you got into
45:40
Speaker 1: the trailer, what you do next, what'd you do next?
45:42
Speaker 1: What did he make you do? He saw her down there, Stephen,
45:46
Speaker 1: then I just can put it do it for me?
45:50
Speaker 1: She what it feels like. Brendan later an interview admits
45:53
Speaker 1: when asked, why did you do this? Because I wanted
45:57
Speaker 1: to see what it feels like. There's a lot of
46:01
Speaker 1: detail that Brendan provided in his interview that I don't
46:04
Speaker 1: know what. Yeah, I could not come up with that
46:06
Speaker 1: if I if I was lying, impossible. It was very
46:09
Speaker 1: indicative memory of something that he had been through. You know,
46:14
Speaker 1: when I would interview witnesses and was investigating a case,
46:19
Speaker 1: when somebody's lying, their story is not rich with detail,
46:25
Speaker 1: like I wanted to see what it felt like, I
46:29
Speaker 1: mean the details that Brendan Dacy put in there. And
46:32
Speaker 1: again my big concern is Stephen Avery. I do believe
46:37
Speaker 1: that Brendan Dacy has a very has a low i
46:41
Speaker 1: Q and I think that he was duped and used,
46:47
Speaker 1: But I still believe he raped Therese the hallback and
46:51
Speaker 1: I don't think he killed her, but I think he
46:54
Speaker 1: was part and parcel and did everything that he just said.
47:00
Speaker 1: This is why the truthfulness of statements or whether it
47:03
Speaker 1: ought to be believed is left to a jury to
47:05
Speaker 1: twelve people looking at that, because the richness of detail
47:08
Speaker 1: that that Nancy's talking about is what we're talking about
47:11
Speaker 1: answers like I wanted to know what it felt like,
47:14
Speaker 1: or that you were at yesterday's talk, you got to
47:17
Speaker 1: hear Brendan say I'm not old enough to have a
47:21
Speaker 1: kid yet. Well, think about that as naive as that is,
47:26
Speaker 1: all right, and and the level of sophistication being as
47:29
Speaker 1: low as it is, that rings true, Folks, that's the
47:32
Speaker 1: kind of thing that a jury watched. Jury got to
47:34
Speaker 1: see the entire three hour confession of Brendan Dascy. They
47:38
Speaker 1: got to hear details like that, I'm not old enough
47:42
Speaker 1: to have a kid yet. That's the kind of thing
47:44
Speaker 1: that a sixteen year old who is feeling bad about
47:47
Speaker 1: what happened but also doesn't have the sophistication that adults do,
47:51
Speaker 1: and sure as heck, isn't something that the officers are
47:55
Speaker 1: feeding to him. He came up with all that his own.
47:57
Speaker 1: Coming up on the next episode of Crime Story with
48:00
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, we turned to Up and Vanished podcast creator
48:04
Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay for discussion about the Terra Grinstead murder investigation.
48:09
Speaker 1: We promise it becomes heated and Stephen Avery, prosecutor Ken Kratz,
48:13
Speaker 1: and investigator Tom fast Vender are still with us for more.
48:17
Speaker 1: Will post episode two of our live Crime con edition
48:21
Speaker 1: of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Tuesday and again. If
48:25
Speaker 1: you're not there when a fire starts, who will be
48:28
Speaker 1: there to save your home with? Simply save home security
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Speaker 1: your smoke detectors, immediately alert emergency services at the first
48:37
Speaker 1: sign of a fire. Get timber sent off your system. Today,
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Speaker 1: it's simply safe dot com slash nancy. That's simply safe
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Speaker 1: dot com slash Nancy. I'm Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off,
48:51
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,