Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Grace in the Dark: Living in the Darkness

Transcript

Grace in the Dark: Living in the Darkness · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright here along with John Burgess,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Deep Grace Diving Podcast,
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  SPEAKER_01: our fourth and final podcast on this little mini-series called Grace in the Dark.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to be talking today about living in the dark based on the book,
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  SPEAKER_01: Learning to Walk in the Dark by Barbara Brown Taylor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so far we have looked at We've talked about darkness in the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about Jesus in the midst of the darkness.
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  SPEAKER_01: We talked last week about dark emotions.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today, we're going to try to tie it all up.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so what does it mean to live in the dark?
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  SPEAKER_01: And where does grace exist in the dark?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I'd start with a story.
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  SPEAKER_01: I use this in one of my recent Substack articles,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to tweak it just a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jan passed away, it'd be six months ago now.
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  SPEAKER_01: And about a month after she died, we did her Celebration of Life ceremony.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was amazing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And a woman came up to me afterwards,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I had done the Celebration of Life service for her husband,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think about a year prior,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe just a few months prior, I don't quite remember the timing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And she gave me a hug and she said, now you know.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now you know.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what I wrote in my article was that I've done a lot of funerals as a pastor,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I always had,
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  SPEAKER_01: and this isn't maybe true for all pastors,
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  SPEAKER_01: but for me,
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  SPEAKER_01: a certain sort of emotional distance from the funerals,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially if it was a funeral of a spouse or a child,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I just didn't want to go there.
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  SPEAKER_01: I needed to sort of Keep my perspective.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like the doctor who's always got to give bad news to his patients
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  SPEAKER_01: or her patients.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that they don't care.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they're not compassionate.
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  SPEAKER_01: But after a while,
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  SPEAKER_01: you have to have a sort of an emotional boundary or you just get sucked into it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember at times I would say to people,
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine what that must be like for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've had people say that to me now.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine what it's like.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I always say to them, if I know them well, don't even try.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's worse than you can imagine.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's no reason to go down that rabbit hole.
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  SPEAKER_01: Don't even try.
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  SPEAKER_01: The only way you can know what that kind of grief is like is to go through it yourself.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know it when you go through it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so my point is in telling that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that 2000 years ago, God and the person Jesus climbed into utter darkness.
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  SPEAKER_01: It started in Gethsemane, where Jesus sweat drops of blood.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was in such stress that his whole body was reacting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in the darkness of the night, he was arrested.
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  SPEAKER_01: For the next 24 hours, he was on trial, never got any sleep, and then was nailed to a cross.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at about three o'clock in the afternoon,
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  SPEAKER_01: darkness literally and figuratively covered the hill of Golgotha.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus was in the dark and felt that God forsaken us and said,
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  SPEAKER_01: my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And then a few moments later, was able to say, Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus went through it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And my point is, now he knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now God knows what it's like to go through our darkness.
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  SPEAKER_01: God is not a God who is unacquainted with our grief.
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  SPEAKER_01: God is not a God who is out there somewhere like the Force,
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  SPEAKER_01: who doesn't get it, who can remain sort of impartial.
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  SPEAKER_01: God chose because God loves us to climb into the darkness, and now God knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows what it's like to grieve.
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows what it's like to experience God-forsakenness.
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows what it's like to hurt, to be depressed.
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows what it's like to have the dark night of the soul.
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what God also knows is that on the other side of darkness, there's always hope.
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  SPEAKER_01: Darkness doesn't have the final word, but it doesn't mean that darkness is bad.
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  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that darkness is where we shouldn't be,
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  SPEAKER_01: because God meets us there in the darkness.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now God knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that can make all the difference.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't stop the darkness from coming.
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  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily cure the depression or the sadness or the grief.
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  SPEAKER_01: But now God knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when that woman said to me, now you know, she wasn't being mean about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: She was able to say that out of love because she knew what I now know.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's a pretty exclusive club that nobody wants to be a part of.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's the Widow Club.
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  SPEAKER_01: And she knew what I now knew.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was her way of saying, it's very different than you thought, wasn't it?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's dark.
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  SPEAKER_01: But God has been meeting me there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the dark and the grief is not foreign territory for God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And nothing can separate us, neither death nor life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Neither the darkness or the light can separate us from God's love.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to start with that as a way of kind
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  SPEAKER_01: of summarizing what we've been talking about,
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  SPEAKER_01: God knows,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then just talk a little bit about how do we navigate life when life gets dark?
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  SPEAKER_01: And no magic formulas,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I think maybe both of us could talk a little bit about some of the things
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  SPEAKER_01: that we do to kind of get through those dark times.
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  SPEAKER_01: John, if you were talking to a buddy who's going through darkness and they'd say,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay, how do I meet God there?
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is always the question, can I meet God there?
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's no simple answer for that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what things might you say to someone who's living in the dark?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think one of the things
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  SPEAKER_00: that has occurred to me lately is just this idea
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  SPEAKER_00: that We all want God to be with us.
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  SPEAKER_00: We want that comfort.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that part of that is just how we're built.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're just built to innately desire the comfort of God in the midst of darkness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that keeps rolling over in my heart is just this idea
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  SPEAKER_00: that God's presence is not reliant on me feeling his presence.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or what somebody said much more beautifully to me,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is God's presence comes as a promise, not a feeling.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's been really
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  SPEAKER_00: important for me to kind of continue in my own life
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  SPEAKER_00: to just kind of work on is because the problem, Tim,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that If you're crying out for God and you feel like he's not there,
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  SPEAKER_00: then immediately you start believing that you are crying incorrectly,
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  SPEAKER_00: that it's my fault
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  SPEAKER_01: that he's not
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  SPEAKER_00: there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's been that this idea that he's with me,
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  SPEAKER_00: regardless of whether I feel like he's with me,
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  SPEAKER_00: that that's part of his promise has been really important.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and God's silence does not mean God's absence.
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  SPEAKER_01: God's absence isn't based on my feelings, it's based on God's promise.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: knowing God knows helps a lot,
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  SPEAKER_01: but also knowing we have a symbol that stands in the center of history called
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  SPEAKER_01: a cross that says that this is where God meets us.
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  SPEAKER_01: God meets us in the cross.
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  SPEAKER_01: God meets us in The darkness, God meets us in our suffering.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's where God is found.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we like to think that God is always in the sun's sunrise,
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  SPEAKER_01: always in the beautiful flowers, the gentle whisper in the trees.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but this is what sets the story of Christianity apart from everything else is
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  SPEAKER_01: that this is a God who enters into that deep human experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: And God meets us there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the darkness is not a curse.
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  SPEAKER_01: The darkness is not our fault.
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  SPEAKER_01: The darkness is simply a part of the rhythm of life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all of creation knows this.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's light.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's darkness.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's life.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's death.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's life after death.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's a rhythm that's sort of created into the universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we as human beings always want to fight it.
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  SPEAKER_01: We just want to be in the light.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there's a darkness that comes, and could it be that God is there?
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  SPEAKER_01: As Jesus said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And then a few moments later, into your hands I commit my spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't feeling God's presence in that moment,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he had a promise from his father that God was there regardless of how he felt in
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  SPEAKER_01: the moment, that God was there in the darkness.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: this this topic also lends itself to the biggest question probably asked
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  SPEAKER_00: by humanity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And certainly it's a question we've talked about on this podcast before.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's just, you know, if God loves me, why not just take this pain away?
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  SPEAKER_00: And this this friend you're asking me about, you know, who do I give advice to?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I do some I do some ministry with college students as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sooner or later that the question is, Why doesn't the loving God just take it away?
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's a tough question.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are very good and interesting answers to that question that are
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  SPEAKER_00: in no way comforting to the person asking the question.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing that in the end, when you're in the dark, you don't need an answer.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need a person.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's an old story about a little boy who was trying to fall asleep
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  SPEAKER_01: and he was scared of the dark and he yelled out across the hallway to his parents,
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  SPEAKER_01: Mommy, Daddy, I'm scared.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be scared, honey.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're right across the hallway from you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mommy and Daddy, I'm scared.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be scared, honey.
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  SPEAKER_01: God's there with you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't need God in here.
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  SPEAKER_01: I need someone with skin on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what the incarnation is all about.
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  SPEAKER_01: We need God's presence.
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  SPEAKER_01: We need someone with skin on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we would like to have some answers.
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  SPEAKER_01: Would it have helped me to know why cancer took Jan's life?
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  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, but really in the end, she still died.
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  SPEAKER_01: So answers can only bring you so far.
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  SPEAKER_01: In the end, what you need is God's presence.
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  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you don't even see that presence until you're three,
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  SPEAKER_01: four months out and you look back and say,
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  SPEAKER_01: man, I don't think I would have got through that without God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just living on the promise.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we'll talk a little bit about some rhythms that we can participate in that sort
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  SPEAKER_01: of keep us focused.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a scripture that says,
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  SPEAKER_01: God will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are stayed on him.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's good psychology for one thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, where we put our minds is where our emotions can sometimes go.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when you're in the dark, it's easy to get distracted from God.
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  SPEAKER_01: You got all those questions, all the what ifs, you got the fears.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did I do something wrong?
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  SPEAKER_01: Why doesn't God take this away?
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  SPEAKER_01: And again,
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  SPEAKER_01: in those times,
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Jesus on the cross,
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  SPEAKER_01: he didn't need an answer to my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
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  SPEAKER_01: There was no answer that he could have been given at that moment
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  SPEAKER_01: that would have made him feel any better.
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  SPEAKER_01: The only answer that made him feel better was the presence of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he was able to just sort of fall into the hands of a gracious God.
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  SPEAKER_01: Who knows if he was sure for sure that God would catch him,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there was the promise of the Father, and that's where Life was found.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things I've been learning,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mentioned that this book,
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  SPEAKER_01: Learning to Walk in the Dark by Barbara Brown Taylor was recommended to me by
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  SPEAKER_01: a therapist.
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  SPEAKER_01: He also recommended to me a book called Falling Upward by Richard Rohr.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Richard Rohr,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is a book about moving from the first half of your life,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is all about order and building things and preparing And then the second half
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  SPEAKER_01: of life is really just about surrender.
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  SPEAKER_01: You've done all the work.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he said,
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  SPEAKER_01: and a lot of times that transition from first half of life to second half
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  SPEAKER_01: of life will happen with some sort of loss, grief, trauma.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, well, okay, maybe I'm there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I am finding, I am finding that there are not necessarily answers.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's only surrender and trust.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that is where, yes,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are certain beliefs that come with that,
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  SPEAKER_01: belief that God will be faithful, belief in the cross.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I can believe it all I want.
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  SPEAKER_01: In the end, I got to just surrender to it and trust that God is there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then that perfect peace, which I haven't found it to be perfect yet, but it's there.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Scripture says perfect love casts out all fear.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of just sitting in the presence of that love and feeling the fear
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  SPEAKER_01: and just letting the fear do what it's going to do until it burns itself out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that love that purifies.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of my prayers every night is, God, take this grief.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take it back again because I want it.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: just use whatever fire to take out all the burnout,
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  SPEAKER_01: all the stuff that isn't love in this grief.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll sort of take it back.
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  SPEAKER_01: Henry Nowen has wrote this,
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  SPEAKER_01: trust that one day love will have conquered enough of you that even
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  SPEAKER_01: the most fearful part will allow love to cast out fear.
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  SPEAKER_01: Trust that one day love will have conquered enough of you That even
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  SPEAKER_01: the most fearful part will allow love to cast out fear.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the promise of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And trust here isn't necessarily something I do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Trust is really surrender, let go.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think part of living in the dark is letting Jesus just take us by the hand and lead us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And trust that he sees and knows where he's going.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because when you're in the dark, you surely don't see that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the feelings that you're feeling in the dark, I would tell this friend, they're all okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like whatever you're going through is okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the- John, that's such good advice because it's amazing how when you say to a feeling,
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  SPEAKER_01: like anxiety, for example, you know what, it's okay that you're here.
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  SPEAKER_01: It loses its power.
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  SPEAKER_01: The power comes from resisting it, being afraid of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm not afraid of it anymore, it's okay that you're here.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's normal.
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  SPEAKER_01: I, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I miss my wife or I,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, I'm scared for my, this test coming up, but it's okay that you're here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, then it doesn't seem to have the power.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that was a great insight.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the
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  SPEAKER_00: The quick response we often have as Christians,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is absolutely true,
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  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
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  SPEAKER_00: is let's take this thing that in the dark you're wrestling with,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're challenged with, and let's let God wrestle with it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's let him take that on.
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  SPEAKER_00: And God asks for that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've got to tell you, I'm really bad at that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am happy to give it to him for A minute and a half until things aren't going
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  SPEAKER_00: the way I think they should go.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I got to,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, take this back, obviously, because this is not working out for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I'm the only person like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think that too is okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like that kind of struggle, wrestling.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes we hear sermons and so on that chide us a bit for not trusting enough,
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  SPEAKER_01: but God doesn't chide us for that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, God God knows that we're complicated human beings because God made us complicated.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have these rational minds that want answers.
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  SPEAKER_01: God's okay with that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have these rational minds, some of us more than others, that want to fix things.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, God made me that way.
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  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes real wisdom in life comes with recognizing that I can't fix it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's not always easy to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's why surrender is so hard.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've shared the story before about the woman who's on the beach
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: and she starts yelling because her son is drowning.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the lifeguard comes and stands right next to her on the beach and he's watching.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't dive in.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't do anything.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's just watching and she's screaming at him, get in there.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's dying.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's drowning and he doesn't do anything.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden the boy just seems to give up and starts to fall Deep into the water.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then immediately the lifeguard jumps out, swims out and saves him.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the mother's relieved, of course, and angry.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, why did you wait so long to save him?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: He could have drowned.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, as long as he was trying to save himself, he would have drowned both of us.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until he gave up that I was able to save him.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so he was just doing what's normal, natural human stuff.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're drowning, man.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to fight to keep ourselves afloat.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But at some point, it's about letting go.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not easy.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So at the risk... Go ahead, John.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Tim, what a moment of darkness that is, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: For the child in the pool and the mother.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I would assume some darkness for the lifeguard, too.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's got to be painful seconds waiting and waiting
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: and waiting.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, if God knows, now God knows.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine how heartbreaking it is for God to sort of have to say, look, this is life.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: All of it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's got death.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's got resurrection.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's got light.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's got darkness.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I ache to see you go through it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: But this is just what life does.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like any parent.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: My heart aches when my kids go through stuff, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: When my grandkids go through stuff, I want to protect them.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes if I step in and protect them, they're not going to grow and learn, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you've got to go through the dark,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: you've got to stub your toe,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: you've got to break your arm to learn that there are things
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: that wisdom says maybe do differently next time.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I always want to be really careful.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's my guard dogs barking.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be really careful.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want to share some of the things that I've been doing in this period of grief
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: that may or may not be helpful.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to say I'm holding myself up as a model by any stretch of the imagination.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But these are some things that I've done.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And these are some things that I have been encouraged to do.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And these are,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think these are practices or rhythms that have some history behind them in
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: the Christian church.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we're all wired differently.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just remember that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I tend to be a guy who's a bit more disciplined in my life, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Some people aren't as disciplined.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: But so even before Jan died, there were certain rhythms that I lived with.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those rhythms was to exercise regularly.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're able,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: when you're going through darkness,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: even if it's not exercising,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: going to the club or running a marathon, get out into nature.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Go for a walk.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: My massage therapist says, go outside when the sun is coming up.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Don't look straight at the sun,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: but just kind of look off to the side without sunglasses and let
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: the sun just bring some healing to you.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Stand on the ground barefoot.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's something about creation that gives us energy.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Get outside.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Breathe the air.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Get into the trees and breathe in some life.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Move your body because a moving body helps process emotions.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: That barefoot on the ground, that's a thing, I think, now.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tim, I think that's a big thing.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I live in Colorado,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: so I think maybe I get more of it around me than most, but that's a thing now.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Grounding, something like that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Grounding, grounding.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there's research about this, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to give you anything that's just tree hugging stuff,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: although apparently even hugging trees is good for us.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But look,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: if God created creation,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Then you would expect that it would be healing for us and it would be good for us
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: to be outdoors.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a regular habit of part of my exercise for me is getting outside,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: walking, riding my bike.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: People can't see the screen, but obviously I work out a lot.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many of you watch Reacher on Amazon Prime, but he's a big, strong guy.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: People often call me Reacher.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's embarrassing.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: We all carry our own burdens here, Tim.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I am diligent in my sleep.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: I really try hard to get a regular pattern of sleeping.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I finally,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: after all these years,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: since 1988,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've wrestled with anxiety, and finally, I went on medications to help me.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And wow, what a gift that's been.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: My friend Michael Gurian kept telling me, you need to be on some medications.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: They are a gift.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Stop fighting it.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, it's just helped me balance.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was afraid it's going to make me sort of numb to life.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: None of that happened.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: It just took away the really anxious highs that anxiety can give you.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: even for my mental health, I, I, I'm taking some really low dose medications.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I, and I mentioned that my wife,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Jan took stuff for depression for much of her adult life and it saved her life.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so, uh, sleeping.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And of course my sleep is better now that I'm on medications.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was always good.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, um, I had a couple of months after Jan died where it was harder to sleep.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I try to eat healthy.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if Dairy Queen burgers and ice cream and root beer counts as healthy.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, only if you have them every day, I think.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then I'm all right.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I try to eat pretty healthy.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then I have changed my And maybe people will be more interested in this,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: but that other stuff I think is highly spiritual.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Being outside for walks, that's sacred.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's being out in God's creation.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I use that time to pray.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then when my prayer time is done, I use the rest of it to listen to Harry Potter.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: But so I sort of... Tim,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: before you move on,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's worth mentioning that you don't You don't live next to a forest.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're in suburban America.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say getting outside,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's not just,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: don't picture that like Tim with a hat on and a staff is walking through
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: the mountains.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm walking, I'm walking the streets of the suburbs, but we do have trails out along the canals.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I get a bit away from traffic.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And my point being, that counts.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: That counts.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're outside.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're breathing air.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're hearing the birds chirp.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's all good.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: My prayer life has always been healthy but hit and miss.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm out riding my bike or I'm out walking,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: that's when I try to have my prayer time and I've gotten better at that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then after breakfast, because I'm retired, I can do this.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I go into my bedroom.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll read a little devotional book.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading through the Bible.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'll read those chapters.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I will do some sort of mindfulness exercise, kind of breathing or whatever to relax.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have been listening.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have various artists, and I will listen either to
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: All to Jesus I Surrender, which is an old hymn, or an old hymn, My Jesus I Love Thee.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why I've started listening to that is because Jan had written it down
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: in one of her journals.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can take me 15 to 20 to 30 minutes, depending on.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it just centers me for the day.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then at night before I go to bed,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will do a little bit more reading from another book.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I'll read some stuff just for the fun of it.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: British mystery, you know, nothing like a good murder to put you to sleep at night.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I will do it all happens in the UK.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you're safe.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I, I do another,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: uh, meditation, uh, mindfulness thing, a breathing thing, and then I'll go into bed.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I will have Alexa play,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have like four or five different versions of this, It Is Well With My Soul.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the song Jan wanted at her funeral.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I've listened to that song almost every night for the last three months as kind
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: of the last thing before I go to bed.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm changing that up a little bit.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Last night I listened to Holy, Holy, Holy, which is an old hymn that I love.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: But those kinds of things for me,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Help me process my emotions because our emotions need movement.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: They need quiet.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: They need time to sit with them.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And just through the music and reading and meditations,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: it reminds me,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: God will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are stayed on him.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It puts my mind on him.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that doesn't mean that I always experience immediate peace,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: but the rhythm of it
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: begins to build sort of that substance in your soul that starts
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: to hold you.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when you start to feel yourself drowning,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: you say, okay, wait,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to go back and breathe a little bit,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: or I'm going to say a quick prayer.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to cast all my cares onto Jesus, whatever it might mean.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the rhythms,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: and I heard someone once say that when you do like 10 minutes of just breathing
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: and focusing on your breathing,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's like putting money in the bank and you're just building up residual,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: you're building up muscles that will help you deal with some of those darker times
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: of life,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: which we probably should stop calling them dark because they can be sources
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: of great
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: They feel dark and scary.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: what we've been learning over the past two or three,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: three episodes of the podcast is that there's some,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: there's some uncomfortable beauty that comes out of it as well.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well said, uncomfortable beauty.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we've said this before,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm always concerned about those folks that just happen to stumble
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: on this particular episode.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly one of the things that both you and I have found some understanding
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: and healing and peace through is by seeking out a therapist
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: that can help us process emotions,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: understand things that seems to be a way that God has really entered into.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, entered into my life from time to time.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also you had said to me, Tim, that,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: that for a while you were also,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: uh, praying through Psalm 23 as kind of a nightly thing.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I still do that too.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'll, I'll, um, just do a little version of it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Jesus, you're my shepherd.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have everything I need.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so tonight,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I pray that you would guide me,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: help me lie down in those green pastures of grace beside those quiet waters
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: of peace, restore my soul, and I'll just walk through some of that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I still do that almost every night in one way, shape,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: or form to sort of let that and it as well with my soul be kind of the last things
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: that my mind is hearing before I hopefully drift off to sleep.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had read Psalm 23 before the terrorist attacks on 9-11,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: but it was the first thing I heard in response to the terrorist attacks on 9-11,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: which was it always stuck with me.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just one of those times in life where you remember where you were, all that sort of thing.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing I wish I wouldn't have taken away was that that was the Psalm for
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: an event like that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I did myself a disservice because it's the psalm for when you feel like you're
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: in the darkness and you want to remind yourself of what God's promises are.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: the crucial part there is even though I walk through the valley of the shadow
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: of death.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So think of a dark ravine.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I won't fear the fear.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because what?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're with me.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And for those who don't understand the image there,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: you're on this kind of narrow path in a dark ravine.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if the sheep fall off, it's not good for the sheep.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the shepherd has the shepherd's rod and he will tap the sheep on a shoulder.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: If they're going too far to the left, he'll tap them on the shoulder.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: If they're going too far to the right, tap the sheep on the shoulder to keep them on the path.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if they do fall,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's got the shepherd's crooks, the staff that lifts them and puts them back on.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't have to be afraid.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: The good shepherd's going to get us through the darkness.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is, the good shepherd is there in the darkness.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you brought that up.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's one of the great Psalms.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: In the darkness, the valley of the shadow of death.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I change that a little bit as I go through the valley of the shadow of grief.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever your valley of shadow of, depression, anxiety, Test coming up.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: The good shepherd is there to lead you and guide you.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're not alone.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: it may not seem like enough, but when you just keep reminding yourself, God knows.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: God knows.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: God gets it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: God's been there.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: God is there.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: That begins to get into your soul.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: But and I think the reason why I shared a little bit about my daily process is
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: because it's easy for us to find ourselves in the darkness and just throw up
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: a prayer, say, Jesus, get me out of this.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of forget about Jesus.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we spend, you know, you reference this.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: We spend the rest of the time trying to fight our way out of it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where these sort of sacred disciplines become important for us.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: They shape us.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Disciplines shape us.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: God uses them to shape us,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: to shape our hearts,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: our minds,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: to sort of keep our perspective on Jesus, because that's where our peace is.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a, again, my therapist, I see two therapists, that's how deep in grief I've been.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, look, there is only this present moment.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is where Jesus is right in the moment right now.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're afraid,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's either you're afraid of what happened in the past or what's going to happen in
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: the future.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And look, Jesus is going to meet you in the future.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's no doubt about that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is there in the past.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: But right now for you, there's just you and Jesus in the present.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we And these spiritual disciplines can help us sort of remember that.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: That, yeah, this is the moment right now.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is the moment.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, there's a little anxiety right now in this moment.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there should be because this is really tough.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: But this is the moment.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is here with me.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the more we can spend time,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is for us,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: reminding ourselves of that promise,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: the more we're going to see God in the darkness and it's going to be okay.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: If it were that easy, huh?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, that's comforting.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what I keep thinking is what you are encouraging us to take a look
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: at is this rhythm that you're in and this rhythm where each of your sort
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: of drum beats in that rhythm invites Jesus in a little bit,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a little different way, a little bit.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I am And maybe some people are more like me.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: If I have a rid of if I have a scheduled rhythm by day three,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is the most boring rhythm ever.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: So what I try to do is have some of those elements.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: But then I sort of pick and choose through the day.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: I do two, five and seven.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next day I do something else and then try not
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: to beat myself up too much if I miss a day or something.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's You know,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: some of us were raised in really liturgical churches,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: where every single Sunday, it was the same thing.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: You said the same words, you sang the same songs, and sometimes it would get kind of boring.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: But as I got older, I realized actually those, the sameness is what brought the comfort.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And no matter what I was going through,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I could go to church on Sunday and we were going to stand here
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: and we were going to sing this here and we were going to say this here.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there was something comforting about the security and the rhythm of that.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But some of us are wired for a little bit more variety in our lives.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up pastoring a church for 41 years that used contemporary liturgies
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: to mix it up every week.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the order of service was always the same, but the music might be different and so on.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, God's a God of variety.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you just sort of play to how you're wired.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think for all of us, we all have rhythms.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us are just more aware of them than others.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the rhythm that's going to help you stay connected to Jesus
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: or help you see that Jesus is connected to you?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact of the matter is we all live the same rhythm.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's called night.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's called day.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's called night.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's called day.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's called fall and then winter and then spring and then summer.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are certain rhythms that we all live because we were created to live by rhythms.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever that rhythm is going to be for you,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: those are the rhythms that God can use to remind us that as dark as it is,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: we're not alone.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, all right.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Our hope is that next week,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Our good friend Terry Summers will be back with us,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: and we will be able to chat with her
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: about her experience doing Les Miserables playing Mrs. Tenardier.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And John, I'm going to turn the music on, so I'm going to allow you to take us out.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Grace Diving Podcast.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're super glad that you're with us.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you like it, share it with your friends and your family, and we'll see you next week.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, everyone.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: All right.