Latest / Identity at the Center / #416 - European Identity and Cloud Conference 2026 Preview with Warwick Ashford

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#416 - European Identity and Cloud Conference 2026 Preview with Warwick Ashford · Identity at the Center

0:04
This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity of the
0:11
Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
0:13
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:15
Oh, not so bad yourself. Good.
0:17
I've been reading up on this plod mythos.
0:20
I'm, I'm wondering, have you read about it?
0:23
And I mean, look, I don't have really any hot takes except, you
0:27
know, what's in the news, but it's interesting to see that the
0:32
AI kind of frontier models is what they're calling it, that
0:37
they're kind of like going after cybersecurity software and
0:41
cybersecurity capabilities now. So I mean, that's quite the
0:46
disruptor, don't you think? I think it can be.
0:50
I'm not sure how real some of it is or not because it's really
0:53
kind of been closely held. But I think maybe that's part of
0:56
the name mythos. It's mythical until it becomes
0:59
real. But certainly it seems to be
1:01
like if if it really is being held back because of security
1:04
concerns and the fact that it is able to find things either they
1:08
have people haven't found yet or whatever it may be.
1:12
I mean, that's just the word we live in now.
1:15
Yeah, yeah. I wonder if like finding bugs is
1:19
really the, I mean, it's definitely a key capability, but
1:22
I mean, cybersecurity is much more.
1:24
But I think that the scare is like, OK, well, this is where
1:29
it's at now. Where's it going to be 2-3 years
1:31
down the road? That's.
1:32
What I've been saying right now as the point in time, this is
1:36
the least capable any of these tools will be and they will just
1:39
continue to become more and more capable.
1:41
Now I have changed my wording. I'm not saying good or bad
1:43
anymore, I'm just saying capability wise this is the
1:47
least capable it'll ever be. Right as it becomes more capable
1:51
it could become more bad as I guess the implication of you
1:55
change or more good fright you're leaving the option open.
2:00
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm going to try and stay optimistic.
2:02
But and and, and I and I think it's well known, Jim, at this
2:05
point, right? You're kind of like the the
2:07
Debbie Downer sometimes on the show.
2:10
But I will say yes is capable. It will continue to get more
2:14
capable. That will open up new doors for
2:17
both positive and negative things.
2:18
And we'll deal with it the same way that, you know, the Internet
2:22
did indoor plumbing, did electricity, horses and
2:25
carriages versus cars, right? Things like that.
2:28
Yeah, hopefully we don't have a big stink coming up.
2:33
Hopefully not I, I don't know how I'm going to segue into
2:37
conferences after big stink. I guess to kind of kick back the
2:40
4th. The 4th wall here is you.
2:42
You mentioned before we hit recording that you were watching
2:45
a documentary and something. I'm going to let you take it
2:48
because. Yeah. 1858 In 1858 in London
2:53
there was an event called the Big Stink.
2:55
At the time, indoor plumbing wasn't as much a thing and they
2:59
were pumping all the human waste right into the river teams.
3:05
There was also all the farm run off and all the tanneries and
3:10
all the industrial waste was also going into the river and
3:14
people were also drinking from that water.
3:17
It just sounds like it's pretty awful toilets and sewage.
3:22
Modern sewage systems are a blessing that we take for
3:26
granted. Indeed, and if you have
3:29
questions or comments, I would urge you to connect with Jim on
3:32
LinkedIn. Send him a message or something
3:35
around that topic, I'm sure you would appreciate it.
3:37
Right, Jim. Look, all these things you can
3:40
learn about using AI prompt or by going to YouTube and watching
3:46
a video that someone created or they had an AI create.
3:50
Yeah, this is true. Like I said, this is the most
3:53
least capable of things have been.
3:55
You can learn anything about anything pretty much anywhere on
3:59
the Internet at this point. You know, one of the things that
4:02
I'm interested in learning more about as a perfect professional
4:05
Segway is the EIC conference that you and I are going to be
4:08
at later this this year. We're hitting up in May, it's
4:12
May 19th, the 22nd. We do have a discount code, so
4:15
hopefully people are taking advantage of that.
4:16
It is ID, AC-25, MKO, we'll have that on our website as well.
4:22
So IDAC, podcast.com. If you just Scroll down a little
4:24
bit, you'll see all the different, different discount
4:26
codes we have. But we'll get forward to being
4:28
in Berlin for the second time, Jim.
4:30
Yeah, I know. And one thing I would recommend
4:33
is if people are going show up a day early, go to the identity
4:37
event. If you're not following
4:39
Espenbago already, you somebody to follow or connect with on
4:43
LinkedIn and you'll certainly see the announcement for when
4:48
registration is available. Go out and register.
4:51
It's a free event. You show up and have a beer and
4:54
meet your fellow identity practitioner professionals.
4:58
Yeah, it's kind of like, I think typically like a pay your own
5:00
way, buy your own beer, right? Things like that that they kind
5:03
of shun away from like corporate sponsorships and things like
5:05
that. But you and I watched the one
5:07
last year right on the river there and it was awesome.
5:10
We broke our camera did did kind of a a live recording there and
5:14
you know, from the picnic tables, I don't remember the
5:16
name of the place, but it was pretty cool.
5:17
And I'm sure we'll find another good spot to maybe do that again
5:19
this year. Yeah, You know, for my money,
5:22
like turning on the cameras actually made it more fun.
5:25
Wasn't like making it into a work thing.
5:27
It was just like conversations. And I think that's every podcast
5:31
we do is it's meant to be a conversation, not a
5:34
presentation. And so that's what I think it's
5:38
going to be great talking with board work today.
5:39
He's very conversational, very much a a friend of the show.
5:44
And do you want to go ahead and introduce him?
5:47
Yeah, you've already kind of have started it, but yeah,
5:48
Warrick Ashford, he's joining us today.
5:51
He's a senior analyst at Cooper Coal.
5:52
Last year, he was the MC. We're going to find out if he's
5:54
going to reprise his role again this year.
5:56
Welcome back to the SHOW WORK. Thanks very much, Jeff and Jim,
6:01
very interesting and entertaining to hear your intro
6:04
there. And I quite like your, your
6:06
analogy because for, for me with, with cybersecurity is very
6:09
much like that. You know, I think Roald Dahl
6:11
describes in one of his autobiographical books about how
6:14
his sister was very badly injured when she went through
6:17
the front window of their car. Because in those days they
6:20
didn't, you know, they had one of the very first cars their
6:22
family did apparently. And there, there was no such
6:25
thing as safety glass. I think that's very much the way
6:27
the cybersecurity industry has always been is like we wait for
6:30
people to get cut and then we go, oh, maybe we should fix
6:32
that. Yeah, I feel like that's almost
6:35
like human nature. It's like, all right, let's you
6:37
know. OK, so this bad thing happened,
6:39
or maybe sometimes it takes multiple times, unfortunately,
6:41
for bad things to happen. And then we decided to do
6:43
something about it. I'm not going to ask you your
6:46
origin story because we already did that last time.
6:48
So for people to learn more about work and kind of how we
6:50
got into the space, go back episode 338.
6:53
That was March of 2025. So it's been about a year, but
6:57
let's start with the last year work.
6:59
What have you been up to? All thoughts, A lot of the work
7:03
that I've been doing is being on a leadership compass on manage
7:07
detection and response. So that's kind of more on the
7:09
security side of things. But it's one of the reports that
7:13
I really enjoy doing because it's an interesting market and
7:16
it seems to be growing and evolving quickly because I think
7:19
just most organisations just aren't able to cope with this
7:22
kind of always on cybersecurity team keeping, keeping tabs on
7:27
everything that's going on in the neighborhood.
7:28
And I think that, you know, there's managed detection
7:33
response is, is, is playing an increasing role there.
7:36
And, and I think it will continue to do so because you
7:39
speak to some CC sees those and you know, they go, oh, like I'll
7:42
never, I'll never let anything happen outside my control and my
7:46
purview and so on. But the fact is there's just,
7:48
you know, if you look at the legislation that's happening and
7:50
the rate that technology is evolving as you've talking
7:54
alluding to earlier, especially now we're, you know, this whole
7:57
new AI area era, you know, I just think most organizations
8:01
just don't have the resources to to cope with that.
8:04
And so you just need to bow to the economies of scale.
8:10
So yeah, so that's that's kind of, I've been spending a lot of
8:12
time around on that. And you know, that doesn't it,
8:16
it, it part of the that evolution includes the
8:18
increasing focus on identity, things like activity recording,
8:23
which relates to accountability. But in terms of security and
8:27
identity, I guess the most relevant, relevant things I've
8:30
been working on include a Leadership Compass on secure
8:34
remote access or SRA for OT and ICS, which has been a lot of
8:39
fun. And I've done a couple of white
8:43
papers on 3rd, a third party access governance, TPAG,
8:48
another, another acronym to add to our things.
8:52
And that's really interesting because I think what what sets
8:55
SRA for OT and ICS apart from kind of general purpose remote
8:59
access solutions is kind of the need to accommodate legacy
9:03
hardware, proprietary protocols and control system architectures
9:09
that lack native security controls such as authentication
9:13
that don't have encryption or audit logging.
9:15
So, yeah. And organizations also under
9:18
pressure to comply with regulations such as it's E i.e.
9:22
EC and it's 62443 and then Merck SIP in the US and of course, the
9:28
E US, there's two directives. So, yeah.
9:31
So that's kind of where I've been, I've been focused for the
9:34
past year or so. So only a couple of things.
9:39
What are some of the major trends that you've seen?
9:40
Like is it is it just AI is just kind of consuming everything?
9:43
But are there other areas maybe that are, you know, shifts
9:46
trends that are kind of adjusting the way you look at or
9:49
shape where you put your attention?
9:51
Yeah, well, I mean, obviously AI is good is a big part of the
9:54
conversation and and people need to be aware of it.
9:57
But I think the work that I've done around SRA and TPAG has
10:00
been fun because it's kind of helped me to understand how
10:03
identity is becoming the control plane of modern cybersecurity.
10:09
So I've been putting some attention on that and written
10:12
some advisory notes around that, and perhaps we can talk about
10:15
that a bit later as well. Work.
10:16
Let's talk about the EIC. First off, what does EIC stand
10:20
for? As second off, are there any
10:22
central themes or narratives that are pulling the conference
10:26
together this year? Yeah, EIC is one of those kind
10:29
of interesting acronyms because it started off as the European
10:32
Identity Conference and and then along came this whole cloud era
10:37
and everybody, it was all about cloud.
10:39
AI hadn't happened yet, so everyone was talking about
10:41
cloud. Cloud was the hot, the hot
10:43
topic. So it was it, it, it evolved
10:46
into the European Identity and Cloud Conference.
10:49
But for reasons best line to the organisers at that time, they
10:53
retained, they retained the acronym EIC.
10:57
So that's where that's where we we've gone, we've gone forward.
11:01
Yeah, you asked about the themes we have.
11:03
The tag line that we opted for this year is Digital Digital
11:06
Trust through Intelligent identity.
11:10
And basically this was just to emphasize the idea of digital
11:13
trust because ultimately I think that's what it's really all
11:16
about. It's, it's really about trust.
11:18
It's, that's, that's what's necessary for digital businesses
11:21
to work effectively and efficiently.
11:24
And I think it's going to be one of the key areas of focus.
11:28
And then intelligent identity, it's, that's a nod to the
11:31
application of AI in the identity field.
11:34
And on the flip side of that is dealing with Agentech identity.
11:39
And those are kind of going to be also two key, key areas of
11:42
focus at the IC. Yeah.
11:45
And you mentioned the the whole idea of identity and trust and I
11:51
really think that the the addition of machines and
11:55
artificial intelligence, which we talked about in the previous
11:58
set of questions, how's that evolving versus previous years?
12:03
I mean, it feels like the past year has been a quantum leap,
12:07
but I know we were talking about these things last year, so.
12:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right, you described that.
12:13
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
12:14
You know, these things have been touched on in previous years,
12:17
but I think it's definitely moved up a notch in the past
12:20
years. You said, and you know, this is
12:24
reflected in topic areas such as we've got a block on identity
12:29
threat detection and response and kind of another hot acronym
12:34
ITDR on Wednesday afternoon and Friday morning.
12:37
We, we kind of, we had so much response in the call for, for
12:41
speakers to this topic. So we're going to be looking on
12:44
Wednesday and Friday, we're going to be looking at how
12:46
organisations are moving from traditional IAM to ITDR, at the
12:52
role of AI in security, obviously, and at how service
12:56
accounts and application identities can be abused in ways
12:59
that are hard to detect. And how most privileged access
13:04
is still out of control for that reason.
13:05
And, and how to spot identity compromise.
13:09
And there's a panel discussion on how to operate,
13:11
operationalise ITDR. And then of course, the other block that
13:16
that I think is, is going to be is relevant here is the
13:19
trustworthy AI and autonomous identity decisioning, which is
13:24
going to be on Thursday morning. And that's looking at how AI
13:27
actually gets used in identity systems today.
13:31
So we, you know, and we've been spending a lot of time talking
13:33
about it theoretically, but I think, you know, what's going to
13:36
be good at EIC this year is it's kind of looking at how it
13:38
actually is being used and the need to verify not only
13:42
identity, but also purpose in the context of, you know, the
13:47
purpose of, of, of, of AI and, and the, the, and the failure
13:51
models in AI identity management.
13:54
So you know, what happens when things go wrong.
13:55
Have you got a, a kind of a fail safe plan?
13:58
And there'll also be a panel discussion on machines with
14:02
identities securing AI agents and synthetic actors.
14:07
Another great term that we're coming to to try and grapple
14:10
with. And this is looking at the risks
14:12
and and opportunities of agent driven interactions and how to
14:17
prepare IAM architecture for AI native actors.
14:22
And there's even an A workshop on non human and agentic AI
14:27
identity, which is going to be aimed at exploring emerging
14:31
standards, modern identity architectures and practical
14:35
frameworks for establishing trust is that word again and
14:39
enforcing control access across autonomous identity ecosystems.
14:44
So quite a lot there around around those 22 areas.
14:49
Yeah, you mentioned the workshop there.
14:51
So what is the difference between a workshop and a
14:54
session? Well, sessions are, are kind of
14:56
usually presentations where you, you've got somebody who stands
14:59
up and runs you through 20 minutes of their insights and
15:03
there's a small opportunity to ask questions at the end.
15:06
Whereas workshops are far more practically oriented.
15:10
Often, you know, those, the, the people conducting the workshops
15:13
will give people practical tasks to carry out or just there's a
15:17
lot more participation. So it's it's kind of as more
15:20
interactive than you did say in a session.
15:22
So those will help pre conference and those will be on
15:27
Tuesday morning. Yeah, I'm sure people love
15:30
getting a combination of the two.
15:32
One of the things you mentioned earlier was intelligence as
15:37
well. I was wondering if you were
15:39
going to start talking about this identity visibility,
15:43
intelligence platform concept. But I think intelligence and
15:48
visibility are a big theme that you see in the industry outside
15:53
of, I think AI and machines take all of the the take all of the,
16:02
you know, air out of the room or if they get all the attention.
16:07
But there are other reasons that people go to these conferences,
16:10
right? A lot of times they're not quite
16:13
there yet and they're still trying to lay the groundwork,
16:16
whether it's identity, governance, privilege, access
16:21
management, even authentication. So does the conference kind of
16:24
take that into account? And is this intelligence and
16:28
visibility? Is that kind of a bridge between
16:30
the two? It's kind of the modern edition
16:34
of some of these like things that we've been talking about
16:37
for over a decade. Well, I, I think, you know, we,
16:40
we like to say anyway that EIC is an opportunity for like
16:45
minded people to just talk about the, the issues that they're
16:48
facing. I think that that's the the
16:50
value of this conference is that there is a lot of opportunity
16:54
for networking over lunches and in between.
16:58
It's not, it's not, I like to think it's not as frenetic as
17:01
perhaps other conferences as that you guys have experienced
17:05
it. So, you know, correct me if you
17:07
think I'm wrong, but I'm very biased in this view.
17:10
But the way the way we've designed it is, is kind of that
17:12
there is a lot of time to be able to just talk to people and
17:16
and compare notes and say, well, you know, this is what we're
17:19
trying. What are you trying?
17:20
Well, you know, what do you how are you dealing with this?
17:22
And, and, and we like to think that that's kind of where the
17:25
magic really happens. So obviously being on the agenda
17:27
team, I'm very focused on the content and presentations and
17:30
all that kind of thing. But I mean, yeah, we we like to
17:32
to think anyway that the the kind of the magic and what keeps
17:36
people coming back year after year is just the opportunity to
17:39
meet as a community and not not to be just rushing around.
17:43
You know, it's a really, it's a fairly contained venue, I think,
17:47
and it's just plenty of opportunity there just collect
17:49
to to network and with your peers and, and look at the
17:53
things that everyone's that everyone's grappling with.
17:57
You know, you mentioned the word frenetic and you know, that is
18:01
like the perfect word because, you know, Jim and I go to a lot
18:03
of conferences and a lot of them are pretty frenetic for us.
18:07
We're running around, we're trying to do a live episodes.
18:09
Sometimes we're on the agenda doing, you know, game shows or
18:11
whatever. And you know, it's just, it's
18:13
very busy. But having gone now to EIC last
18:17
year for the first time, I was telling everybody like this is a
18:20
great conference, even if you are, you know, in the US and
18:25
you're coming over there. And like Jim and I were for the
18:27
first time, you get exposure to a lot of international themes
18:30
that we just don't see typically here in the US.
18:32
And so I think it's a perfect kind of combination of
18:35
conferences and like when I think about sort of like the
18:37
main conference circuit for me every year, it's, you know, now
18:41
it's EIC and then it's Identiverse and then it's kind
18:43
of Gartner's I am thing, you know, later in the year, at
18:46
least for the US and it's 3 very different audiences.
18:49
And the way that I've described it to people and I'm work.
18:51
I'm curious to hear if you, if, if this resonates with you is
18:54
EIC is kind of like where the big thinkers are.
18:58
Here's where the direction of the industry is going, you know,
19:01
whatever it may be from an identity security perspective
19:04
and sort of everything around, you know, identity ideniverse
19:08
tends to be like the doers and the practitioners, the people
19:11
who are like doing things. Lots of vendors as well with
19:14
solutions to solve all your identity problems.
19:16
And then I see kind of Gartner at the end of the year is sort
19:18
of like the executive conference.
19:20
How do you get funding buy in, at least for the US, you know,
19:24
to do the things that the big thinkers and the doers want to
19:27
do and translate to an executive.
19:29
And I'm curious if does that make sense, like from those
19:32
three different sort of viewpoints?
19:34
Yeah, absolutely. And it's actually very
19:36
heartwarming to hear you say that.
19:37
Thank you very much. Because that's kind of what has
19:40
been the ethos of of EIC. I mean, I've, I've only been
19:45
with cooping a coal for I think roughly 6 years now, but I've
19:50
been attending EIC in, in my previous life as as a
19:54
cybersecurity journalist. I've, I've been to about 15.
19:58
So I kind of have seen the evolution of the years and I've
20:01
kind of got into the whole way of it.
20:03
And that's why I enjoy working on the agenda team is because I
20:06
feel like I have a fairly good understanding of, of what makes
20:09
it different. And, and those are the things
20:11
that we try, which we try to engineer in and, and that we
20:15
like to think that people come back each year for.
20:17
So, you know, while we were kind of not.
20:20
Stuck in one way of doing things and that we try to kind of move
20:24
it on each year and to kind of make it as, as, as relevant as
20:28
possible and updated as much as possible and, and to try new
20:32
things. I think that's at that at its
20:34
core with what we're trying to preserve.
20:36
And yeah, it's, it's great to hear that that's your
20:39
perspective of it because that's kind of what we're going for.
20:42
I think Jeff, yeah, I think Jeff summarizes it the way I see it
20:46
as well. I would add on to what I think I
20:50
felt at the EIC last year was two things.
20:54
One is obviously a very much more compliance driven and
20:59
privacy driven. Maybe it's use cases that people
21:03
are trying to solve, but I think it's kind of a tone.
21:07
I think the other tone was less of a vendor solution approach to
21:17
solving identity use cases and more of like a open architecture
21:22
or you know, I think the big theme that I took away from last
21:25
year was the identity fabric. And if you look at the identity
21:30
fabric is there's generations of, of I am tools that are in
21:36
your environment and you need to make them work together, right?
21:40
There's not going to be a RIP and replace.
21:42
There's not going to be a consolidation down to a single
21:46
vendor. I do think that is the the magic
21:51
wand that people try to wave in the US, having worked in the US
21:55
for over 20 years in IT and and information security.
22:00
It's always like, what are the tools?
22:03
What are the vendors that are going to stand behind us and
22:06
give us a product that's going to solve all or most of our
22:10
needs. I would have this few different
22:13
other products plugging in. I think that's changing somewhat
22:17
because I mean in the identity space, it's just so many new
22:21
vendors who are creating solutions that are great.
22:26
They're they're above and beyond what you can get from package
22:30
solutions. But then you start to see
22:32
consolidation where they're small companies get absorbed in
22:36
other words, get bought out by bigger companies than they just
22:39
added to their portfolio. So I think, I guess the summary
22:43
is that I think the US approach is more of a a product focused
22:48
approach, but I was picking up in Europe is it's more of an
22:51
architecture or an open, yeah, open architecture texture
22:56
approach, something like identity fabric.
22:59
You know, I mean, we, we like to think that again, EIC brings
23:02
together, as you say, kind of the, the, the, the kind of
23:05
people who are, who are shaping the way things are, are, are pan
23:09
out. And you know, the identity
23:13
fabric is again, one of the workshops.
23:15
It's one of the workshops this year, which will be which
23:18
cooping a coal will be presenting.
23:20
So, you know, if anyone's interested in how they can
23:23
assess their maturity in the whole IAM space and how, as you
23:27
said, they can make what they have work for them and where
23:30
they need to, how they need to identify the gaps where they
23:32
need to go, then, then probably that workshop is a good workshop
23:35
for them to attend. But yeah.
23:39
Well, I'm looking forward to really the entire conference.
23:41
I will, you know, for the for the layman person in me, I had a
23:45
lot of and moments that last year, which, you know, hopefully
23:51
that translates well across, you know, video and audio.
23:53
But you know, I saw his goes like it really kind of got me
23:55
thinking a lot of a lot of different things, you know,
23:58
based on what was presented. I'll tell you, the highlight for
24:00
me was you mentioning the podcast is kind of like your
24:02
opening salvo and the fact that some people actually clapped and
24:06
knew who we were was amazing. So thank you for all that
24:09
support on it. Appreciate it.
24:10
Yeah, well, although you know, as it's the European identity
24:13
and Cloud conference, we we're trying to be as international as
24:16
possible and we're getting more and more international content
24:19
as the years go by. And yeah, so I think, you know,
24:23
it would be wrong to to go all that's not for me, that's that's
24:27
kind of for a European audience because I think it's relevant to
24:30
anyone working in the space. So, you know, hopefully people
24:33
won't be put off by that, but I think the European perspective
24:35
also helps because, you know, it just because of the way the
24:40
legislation is in the European context and just where the
24:44
government's working, it can help to use sort of, as you say,
24:50
spark ideas and draw parallels and so on.
24:53
So yeah. I I always say, you know, a good
24:56
identity person is a well-rounded identity person.
24:58
You know, obviously well-rounded identity, but also the world at
25:01
large and different cybersecurity and regulations
25:03
and things. We are a identity is global,
25:06
right? It can't just be myopic and be
25:07
just one specific area. So I think more ideas is good.
25:11
I'm curious from like a theming perspective this year, if you
25:15
know are there, I'm going to assume AI is going to kind of be
25:19
a big theme, but is, are there other things that you expect to
25:22
kind of like dominate sort of where things are at today from
25:26
an identities perspective? It's not so much like somatic,
25:29
but I mean this year's EIC keynotes, if we look at those,
25:32
they focus on how identity is becoming the foundation of
25:35
digital business, because I think that's also one of the
25:37
things that that EIC is is kind of stands out for what is
25:42
different about? It's kind of looking more at at
25:44
how to enable business, how business, you know, how from the
25:47
business point perspective. So here we're we're looking at,
25:50
you know, identity becoming the foundation of digital business
25:53
in the age of IAI. And you know, obviously expect
25:56
an emphasis on agentic and non human identities and how to
26:00
establish trust governance, You know, where we as keeping a
26:03
coal, I'll pick on governance and security and machine driven
26:07
ecosystems is also going to be a spotlight on digital
26:11
sovereignty. Obviously being European and
26:14
government LED identity initiatives including E wallets
26:17
of course, and national identity frameworks.
26:20
Also at the growing role of standards as you mentioned in
26:23
compliance and certification. The keynotes also cover identity
26:28
centric cybersecurity from quantum threats to zero trust
26:32
and identity fabrics. As we've already mentioned in
26:35
the opening keynote, as always, is going to be Martin keeping
26:38
you the distinguished analysts and our Co founder.
26:41
He's going to be talking. His topic is from workforce to
26:44
everything, the next chapter of identity, security and
26:47
governance. So that'll be his bit of crystal
26:51
ball gazing there. And then he's going to be joined
26:54
by the one on the Eve mallet and privacy advocate Max Schrenz for
27:01
a panel discussion entitled consents Journey from annoying
27:06
to meaningful. Can just hear Eve saying that
27:09
actually. And can tech actually eliminate
27:12
cookie consent boxes? So I think that's going to be
27:14
pretty fun. And digital identity and
27:17
cybersecurity policy expert Lucas Elvis.
27:20
Now, this is one that I was particularly involved in.
27:24
He's going to be speaking on the agentic state.
27:27
What next for digital government?
27:29
And I, I, I'm really looking forward to this because he is,
27:34
he's from Estonia and he's currently being seconded as an
27:38
advisor to the Ministry of Digital Transformation in
27:40
Ukraine on questions of AI and digital transformation.
27:44
So yeah, I think his presentation will probably be
27:47
very good, but I mean, again, he's going to be on site and so
27:50
anyone who wants to talk to him about his experiences will be
27:53
able to to access him there. So I think that's one.
27:56
I think that's one. If you were to ask me one thing
27:58
that you're really looking forward to, I think that's
28:01
that's probably my highlight, highlight.
28:04
And then as you mentioned, we've got kind of movers and shakers.
28:07
We've got AI policy advisor at the European Parliament, Kai
28:10
Zenner. He's spoken at ERC before and
28:12
he'll be looking at the question, will AI in Europe
28:16
succeed with GDPR and change. So yeah, I think that's also
28:22
going to be interesting because you've got the EU Data Act is
28:25
aimed at sort of opening up access to connected device and
28:29
service data and driving interoperability by common data
28:33
spaces. But this is potentially at odds
28:34
with the GDPR which is going no, no, no, no.
28:38
So he's asking, you know, can can this form of form an enforce
28:42
and share path that avoids rewriting GDPRS, right.
28:45
That could be quite interesting because it's within the EU.
28:49
And then Florin Koptel will be there.
28:51
He's AEU, digital identity and business wallets expert, and
28:55
he'll be speaking on EU business wallets, shaping the future of
28:58
digital identity in Europe. And I think that could be
29:02
interesting for you audiences all around the world.
29:05
And then another one that I'm looking forward to, we're going
29:08
to have John Piert, who is the Chief Executive of the Let Me
29:11
Get This Right Office for Digital Identities and
29:13
Attributes in the UK Department of Science, Innovation and Tech.
29:17
My goodness. Anyway, he's going to be talking
29:19
from framework to function. This is all about EU KS approach
29:23
to delivering trusted digital identity at scale.
29:26
So I think, you know, the UK is kind of very special when it
29:30
comes to identity. They're very, they tend to be
29:33
very circumspect about what, what they, you know, but the
29:36
idea of national ideas that are kind of a bit of an anathema
29:39
here. So this this session, I think is
29:42
going to be interesting and it's going to be aimed at exploring
29:45
the technology standards and assurance mechanisms that can
29:49
now underpin trust in the UK market.
29:51
So like, you know, we can do it here, then eventually anybody
29:54
can do it kind of thing. Yeah.
29:57
So there's kind of a lot to, it's like there's a lot to to to
30:01
look forward to. This is kind of these are just
30:04
the acting baking rights. Oh, yeah.
30:06
Joni Brennan's coming this year. We, we, she must start.
30:08
We wouldn't have a last year. She's coming this year, which
30:12
you, as you may or may not know, she's the president of the
30:14
Digital ID and Authentication Council of Canada.
30:17
I think Canada has always had a a pretty good perspective on on
30:21
identity and she's chosen the topic sovereign by design.
30:25
So this is kind of talking about parallel paths to digital trust
30:29
and identity and a world that isn't waiting.
30:31
So helping Keen to know what she's envisaging there.
30:36
He's also coming back to talk about the identity collision in
30:41
the C-Suite. I wasn't sure what this was all
30:42
about, but kind of how explanatory notes are the hidden
30:45
conflicts inside executive teams and why identity professionals
30:50
feel the impact first. So that sounds like it could be
30:53
pretty interesting. And then we've also got digital
30:57
identity and trust framework expert Elizabeth Garber, who I'm
31:00
sure you're very familiar with. And she's going to be speaking
31:03
on identity and a changed United States, which could be pretty
31:08
interesting. She's being a bit guarded about
31:12
exactly what what she'll be discussing, but I think that
31:14
that will be an interesting 1. And there'll also be keynotes on
31:19
when models run the business risk trust and and the new AI
31:23
identity economy. And then also we're getting a
31:28
perspective from the we build consortium on on their kind of
31:32
forays into the wallet world. And then also our guys panel of
31:41
discussion by the keeping a coal analysts and advisors.
31:44
We're going to be talking about how to succeed in IAM under
31:48
constant change. So yeah, a lot.
31:52
And that that's just a one. I mean, there's so many good
31:57
conversations taking place and you know, it's sometimes tough
32:00
to like hit them all. I know we talk about being there
32:02
in person but can't if I'm remote.
32:04
Can I stream some of this content as well?
32:06
Yeah. I think, I mean this is kind of
32:08
an artifact from COVID, which means that we record all the
32:12
sessions now. So I mean, that has the, the
32:14
double, the double benefit or triple benefit of the fact that
32:19
A, you don't have to make those horrible decisions.
32:22
You know, to me that's one of the worst things about
32:24
conferences. You sit there with the agenda,
32:26
you think, well, this looks good, this looks good, this also
32:29
looks good. Which one do I take a bet on?
32:32
And then you rush off to that, that particular venue, you kind
32:36
of squeeze your way in, you get a seat if you're lucky.
32:39
And then within the 1st 5 minutes you go, oh, no, I made
32:41
the wrong decision. Oh, no horror.
32:44
I should have gone to one of the others, but the great thing
32:47
about the IC is because everything is recorded, it just
32:50
means that you don't have to make those decisions.
32:53
You can like you can decide, okay, I want to perhaps meet
32:56
this person. We'll see what they like in
32:58
person, but you know that you're not going to miss anything
33:01
because you can always catch it up.
33:03
And if you've got a full ticket, then you've always you've got
33:07
access afterwards. So you can even go and watch
33:10
things again. And it's all like, I remember
33:12
all you can share, you can share with your colleagues and say, I
33:14
had this really great talk at the eici think it would benefit
33:19
you or the team or whatever. And and then you can you still
33:21
have access to to the content afterwards.
33:24
So thanks COVID it it it it's kind of resulted in that.
33:29
And I think, I mean, I, I'm not aware of other conferences that
33:33
do that, but I think it's fairly unusual that you can, you know,
33:37
you can watch things back and watch all the content given,
33:42
given time, time and opportunity.
33:43
I mean, even if you're running late on the day and you're stuck
33:46
in your hotel room for whatever reason, you can catch the
33:49
beginning or whatever, you know. So I think that's it's kind of
33:52
one of the the things that I like to think is is pretty good
33:56
about the EIC and that you wouldn't get at other
33:58
conferences. I mean, I do appreciate it
34:00
because I, it, it, it solves that dilemma of I, I need to be
34:04
in five places at once and I can't be in any of them.
34:07
So being able to catch, catch, catch content later is
34:10
fantastic. I would highly encourage any,
34:12
any conference to, you know, pick that up.
34:14
I know there's cost associated with it, but I think it's worth
34:16
it. You're part of the, you know,
34:19
the, the, the council, right, That looks at the different
34:22
content coming in. I'm curious if there's something
34:24
like, is there under something under the radar, something
34:27
that's like you've got your ions like Bandit, you know, I really
34:30
hope people look at this kind of hidden gem that you think that
34:33
might be out there. Yeah, it was quite tricky this
34:35
year. There were, there were areas
34:37
that we hoped there would be more on that there wasn't.
34:40
But as you say there are. There were things that that, you
34:43
know, we got content on that we weren't expecting.
34:45
I mean, I think the one of the things that I'd like to mention
34:49
here is there's a block on quantum safe identity.
34:53
So on Thursday afternoon, this is kind of looking at the risk
34:56
of making the wrong decisions today about architecture
35:00
priorities and investments. It's looking at the need to
35:03
start thinking now about things like cryptography, legacy
35:07
protocols and how they will mitigate the quantum safe
35:12
approaches. And there's a parallel
35:14
discussion on what organizations should change before the next
35:18
budget cycle. So this is focusing on concrete
35:21
decisions around cryptography, identity architecture, tokens,
35:26
certificates, and 3rd party dependencies.
35:29
And so I think overall, this block looks at what needs to be
35:32
fixed in your identity stack right now.
35:35
And you know, so you're not exposed later because I think,
35:38
you know, most people agree that while it this is not a problem
35:41
right now, it will soon become and you need to start planning.
35:45
And I think as far as the other emerging topics are concerned,
35:49
look out for sessions on identity for non human and
35:52
identic systems, identity and constrained or disconnected
35:57
environments. I think there's one particular
35:59
presentation that kind of looks at it in the military context.
36:03
And of course identity is a foundation for everything.
36:06
And Martin's keynote and yeah, so I think those are going to be
36:10
the, the, the, the sort of important things to to try and
36:13
hit. So work, I wanted to get into
36:17
some of the, you know, logistics of the conference.
36:20
And 1st I'll say that you go to ouridacpodcast.com website,
36:25
we've got a link to register directly to go in and register.
36:29
And we've got a discount code worth 25% off your passes for
36:33
EIC. But I wanted to get some sense
36:37
of, OK, where is the conference? Like The Who, what, when and
36:40
where, how many people can attend?
36:43
Where is the conference? When is the conference?
36:46
Stuff like that. OK, Well, I I think this is
36:51
actually the 20th year since the founding of the conference, but
36:55
this is the 19th 1:00 because we obviously missed one thanks to
36:58
COVID. So this is the the 19th 1:00 and
37:03
it's it's principally aimed at identity and cloud
37:06
professionals. Obviously it's in the title, but
37:08
this includes CIOs, Czos, industry leaders and peers to
37:13
come and learn. And as we, we've been talking
37:16
about, discuss and expand connections, it's making all the
37:19
right connections and growing influence in the digital
37:22
identity and and cloud computing world.
37:25
I think if you mentioned it, where it's 19 to 22 May and it's
37:29
at the Berlin Congress Center, which is near Alexander Platts.
37:32
So if anyone's been watching Hijack on on on Apple TV, you
37:40
will be familiar with that area. I really enjoy it because Oh
37:43
yeah, I've been there, I've been there.
37:44
And so and obviously online as as we've been discussing, we're
37:50
expecting in total with both physical and, and virtual about
37:53
kind of 1500. That's sort of the, the level we
37:56
called. Well, we just got around that
37:58
last year. So I hope we're hoping to kind
38:00
of match that. Again, they're around 250
38:03
speakers give or take, because we keep on sort of acquiring
38:07
people even now like everyone's going like him.
38:09
Oh, like I should be speaking at the AIC And they're like, dude,
38:12
the the call for speakers opened like a year ago.
38:15
But hey, anyway. And, and that's kind of about
38:18
200 sessions. But I mean, you know, that
38:20
sounds a lot. But as we've been saying, you
38:22
don't have to make all the decisions.
38:24
Then day one, we've got 13 K keynote sessions.
38:26
That's kind of big keynote day setting all the, the, the, the
38:29
sort of themes and tones and so on, plus the workshops that we
38:32
mentioned. And then the two kind of middle
38:34
days, they've got 9 keynote sessions +5 parallel streams.
38:38
So this is where potentially you're going to have to make a
38:40
decision, but it's more too serious.
38:42
And the, the five streams that we've chosen this year are
38:46
future of identity and decentralization.
38:49
So I mean, that's kind of, you know, core to to EIC and then
38:54
the, the content that I enjoy the most, the real world
38:57
identity use cases. And this is just looking at what
39:00
companies are actually doing in the real world.
39:03
Then we've got a stream on enterprise IAM and the
39:06
infrastructure that's just going to be so obviously looking at
39:08
the, the whole AI thing in that context.
39:11
And then the the importance area of governance, privacy and
39:15
compliance and finally emerging tech and identity fabrics.
39:19
So yeah, so that you mentioned identity fabrics earlier.
39:22
And so they, you know that that is kind of a whole stream that's
39:24
going to be looking at those kinds of things.
39:26
And the 4th, the 4th day is they're only just keynotes or
39:30
six keynote sessions, but we're also having the five parallel
39:33
streams on on those days too. So but yeah, in and as far as
39:39
highlights are concerned, we've got BMW going to be speaking
39:42
about their digital IAM governance, which is cool.
39:47
And sticking with with auto manufacturers.
39:51
We've got lessons learned migrating a legacy on Prem Pam
39:56
environment into a modern cloud native solution at
39:59
Mercedes-Benz. And then we've got a fun session
40:03
from Dean Sachs. I'm sure you know him well
40:07
called breaking glass restoring my digital life.
40:10
This is kind of he's going to be looking at what you what'll it
40:13
take to restore your digital identity or digital life if you
40:17
if you were to lose all your devices at once.
40:20
I think that could be 1 not to miss.
40:23
And then we're also, we'll also have a session on how not to on
40:28
board as a relying party, lessons learned and common
40:31
mistakes from the German EUDI Wallet sandbox ecosystem.
40:36
So yeah. Yeah, you mentioned a lot of
40:39
speakers from the US and and Canada mentioned Jody.
40:43
You mentioned Eve, you just mentioned Dean.
40:46
By the way, Eve is coming out with your books going to be
40:49
released in a couple of weeks probably by the time this
40:52
episode it goes out, it's like 2 weeks out.
40:56
And I think that's going to be. So in addition to all those
41:00
fantastic European based speakers, you've also got a lot
41:04
of people coming in from North America really looking forward
41:07
to it. And I'm just interested like,
41:10
and I think I knew the answer to this, but 1500 attendees on site
41:16
and virtual 250 speakers, 250 sessions.
41:21
Like how do you keep the quality?
41:23
How do you make this year better than last year?
41:26
And where I was going to say I think under the answer, shout
41:30
out to Marina Cordash. She is the person who's been,
41:36
you know, coordinating. Jeff and I are going to be
41:38
recording a few podcasts on site.
41:40
Marina is the the person who I think there's a lot more
41:44
coordinating than we see, but she's been coordinating with us.
41:48
I I got to imagine there's a lot of behind the scenes happening
41:52
here. Oh, absolutely.
41:53
I mean, you know, we have a whole events team that's kind of
41:56
dedicated to this. So you know that they're,
41:59
they're, they're, they're, this is our flagship event.
42:02
And so a lot of time and resources goes, goes into this,
42:06
but we're just hoping that, you know, like having organised it
42:09
around the, the five streams that it's kind of more or less
42:11
logical. I mean, it's quite, it's quite a
42:14
kind of a puzzle to try and work out, you know, where, where we
42:17
think the most people are going to be and what size the rooms
42:20
are and all that kind of thing. But I mean, we work it work as a
42:22
greater expanded team and hopefully we've, we've got it
42:25
right this year. I mean, we've, we've taken
42:27
feedback from last year and try to kind of improve.
42:30
That's what we try to do every year.
42:32
So hopefully that will help. And we've tried to design it in
42:36
blocks. So we kind of where, you know,
42:39
topic will be introduced and like to try and move from the
42:41
general to the specific way possible.
42:45
And I think the 20 minute format also helps, you know, it's kind
42:48
of short, it's sharp, it's focused.
42:50
You know, we get lots of thing, oh, Kyle, I have 30 minutes,
42:52
Kyle, I have 40 minutes or Gee, an hour would be really great.
42:56
And they don't think, well, people's attention spans are not
42:59
that, that long anyway. And, and, you know, so at least
43:01
we, we try to kind of get as much kind of different content.
43:05
And, and by keeping it in the 20 minute format, that just means
43:08
that it's, it's kind of, it's, it's succinct and it's, it's
43:11
focused and people aren't just going rambling on.
43:13
And we hope that it just encourages the speakers to kind
43:17
of just lay out what's really important.
43:20
And, and what can I say as a member of the agenda team, these
43:24
sessions have been carefully created.
43:25
So hopefully that'll ensure the quality.
43:28
And yeah, so. Let me ask you more of a
43:33
philosophical question because I I've seen this trend of identity
43:37
and security sort of blending over the last few years.
43:40
And you know, I want to know what you think drives that.
43:44
But I also want to ask a question.
43:47
Does this bug you as a much as it bugs me?
43:50
The phrase that identity is the new perimeter.
43:54
Like to me, I'm so tired of hearing about that because I've
43:57
been hearing about that for, I feel like 5 years, six years,
43:59
seven years, and it's been there.
44:02
And so if you're just now realizing that identity is the
44:05
new perimeter, it's like, OK, it has been.
44:09
But I hear that so often and it just, you know, maybe it's just
44:12
me and I just, you know, grinds my gears a little bit every time
44:15
I hear identity is a new perimeter.
44:17
But I'm curious what your take is on this sort of convergence
44:19
between identity and just security at large.
44:23
I think identity is the new premature was it was kind of
44:26
like a shorthand that we all developed, wasn't it?
44:29
Because I mean, we kind of all knew what we were talking about.
44:31
And I think for me now this year really is, is kind of that's
44:34
where my thinking is gone now. Whereas I'm seeing identity more
44:38
as kind of that control plane where you know, it, it, it, but
44:42
rather than talking of it as a, as a perimeter and at last year
44:46
or in previous years, previous two years, I think we had
44:51
security as a, as a discrete stream, but we just realized
44:57
that security is really so identity and security are so
45:02
intertwined that it's, it's quite it's, it's silly to to
45:06
kind of separate them out in a way.
45:08
So what we've done with the five streams this year is to kind of
45:11
just have the security related content appear in context where
45:15
it kind of makes the most sense. So as I was saying earlier, we
45:19
go from the kind of general to the specific we're going from,
45:22
you know, saying laying out the kind of this is the area of
45:24
discussion then, and this is how how security fits into it.
45:28
And this is, you know, how This is why it's relevant here.
45:30
So I think that that approach is, is possibly, I mean, we're
45:35
hoping it's going to make more sense than stripping it out as,
45:37
as a kind of discreet stream. And hopefully it'll just make
45:41
make sense to people to have that content in the right place
45:45
and in the right context and, you know, that kind of thing.
45:48
And yeah, I saw some discussion around, I think Eve was weighing
45:51
in saying she was also irritated by it.
45:52
So you're not alone, not alone. Well, I'm a good company if he
45:57
was also irritated by it. But I also now think about it,
45:59
it's like, OK, you know, I just kind of got out of my soapbox
46:02
there for for a minute and shot it sort of like get off my lawn,
46:05
right, So to speak. You know, maybe it is that, you
46:08
know, I'm too close to identity and people are maybe not
46:13
identity experts and they are now discovering it for whatever
46:17
that means, right. For the first time.
46:18
Maybe they were, you know, in a different area of security and
46:23
identity wasn't part of their day job as much, even though
46:26
it's kind of everywhere, but maybe it's not their core focus.
46:28
And so I have to kind of remind myself that people are still
46:32
discovering identity. But when I when I what bothers
46:35
me most is when I hear people at the executive level, the
46:38
C-Suite, CSO's, CIO's that are just now discovering that
46:43
identity is the new perimeter. It's the same thing.
46:46
You just, it's the same thing you just said, Jeff, because
46:49
they think there are CSO's who really haven't spent time doing
46:53
identity and they're serious people.
46:56
They're great at what they do, but this is a new area for them.
46:59
So hearing this is like it takes some time to absorb because if
47:04
you focus all your time on building perimeters of security
47:08
tools and someone comes along and says identity is a new
47:11
perimeter, you have to hear it enough times because at first
47:15
you want to reject it. OK.
47:20
I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right,
47:22
though. I think, you know, that that
47:23
that because this is something that we work with and the kind
47:26
of connections are so obvious. And to us, it is maybe not
47:30
something where where the kind of leadership has been.
47:33
And you know, fortunately now I think it's great that this
47:36
awareness does seem to be to be growing.
47:38
And hopefully those who attend EIC will, you know, they they'll
47:42
have their aha moment too, where they'll go.
47:45
Oh yeah, yeah, this is kind of why, why haven't I seen it
47:48
before? Because I think once you've seen
47:50
it, you see it. But you know, maybe because
47:52
that's not your day job, you you may not see it.
47:55
You just kind of see security as being about other things and,
48:00
and, and identity is just kind of being kind of tangential.
48:04
But it's, you know, as we know it, security is at the centre.
48:09
I mean, identity is at the, you know, identity is at the end,
48:12
security is at the centre, so. Well, obviously we're in, we're
48:14
in the right place for that. That's that's why we call it
48:16
that. Yeah, I'll look, I'll get off my
48:18
soapbox and stop yelling, you know, get off my lawn, right?
48:21
Those types of things. It's just, I don't know what it
48:23
is. Like I said, it just kind of
48:24
personally irks me. It's like it's been here for a
48:27
while. Like, come on, catch up.
48:29
Like where we're at. OK, let's let's change topics
48:34
and let's get into things that we do on the side.
48:37
I asked you what you do for fun when you're not, you know, being
48:41
MC extraordinaire and analyst extraordinaire with with KC.
48:46
You mentioned theater and so I want to hear what maybe you're
48:49
like most memorable theater moment is either and it can be
48:53
anything, right? It can be positive, it could be
48:54
negative. It can be like that was kind of
48:57
interesting or weird or fun or sad or whatever.
49:00
Maybe. So I'm curious like what's your
49:01
favorite or most memorable theater moment?
49:05
Yeah, that's actually quite difficult because I think every
49:09
time I go to the theatre, it is kind of, I find it, I find it a
49:12
kind of a visceral experience and I find it very kind of
49:15
emotional experience because it kind of takes you places where
49:19
you you kind of maybe not expecting to go.
49:21
It makes you, you know, look very much like, yeah, I see
49:23
conferences kind of makes you see things in a different way or
49:26
kind of see a different things from a different perspective or
49:29
kind of just feel things. And, you know, it's kind of in a
49:32
way that film doesn't, you know, it communicates like on a basic
49:38
level. And my my confession about I
49:41
tend to try and sit like quite near the front row.
49:44
So I'm sort of wait, you know, I like to be where you can, you
49:47
can literally see the spit bubbles and, you know, you can
49:50
just make that connection. And yeah, I mean, I think Tom
49:55
Stoppard's Leopoldstadt was called an amazing thing.
49:59
You know, kind of the whole, it's an amazing play and it, it
50:04
takes you through several generations of, of kind of the
50:07
Jewish community in Vienna that that's an amazing play.
50:13
I think musical theatre is what I enjoy the most, but I like I
50:17
like it to be meaningful stuff. So I think my favorite All time
50:22
is Lame is Rob, because that's based on what I think is a
50:26
stunning Victor Hugo novel. And what I particularly
50:31
appreciate about it is how the P how those have created the show,
50:38
have translated the Hugo's text into music and song.
50:45
And it just that whole process fascinates me of translating
50:48
something that's brilliant in, in and of itself into something
50:52
else and kind of making it just even more special.
50:55
And, you know, it's something that's different, but it's it's
50:58
kind of special. So that's also, you know,
51:00
whether the other my favorite shows is Sunday in the Park with
51:04
George, which is about the the artist George Ceran, about his,
51:09
his creative process. And I, I saw the the painting
51:13
the Grande Jot in Chicago when I was there a couple of years ago.
51:16
And I mean, when you come, you know, I've seen hundreds of
51:19
prints of this, this painting, but to come face to face with
51:22
this painting was just quite, quite emotional moment, you
51:25
know, and, and it really, it reminded me of the the show.
51:28
And so that's why, in fact, next weekend I'm going to be going to
51:30
see your show about the, the kind of creative process of
51:34
Monet. So we'll see how that compares
51:37
with, with the Seraphi. But yeah, a lot of people go,
51:41
oh, my musical theater, that's kind of rubbish.
51:42
But I think there are kind of levels and, and, and, and I
51:49
think shows like Les Mis have got that gravitas and that's
51:52
sort of a universal human story that that goes beyond kind of
51:56
just boy meets girl kind of musicals that that we kind of
51:59
tend to know. Yeah.
52:03
I don't have a ton of experience with theater, but I'll tell you
52:05
my my favorite before Jim, I tell yours is or you tell yours.
52:09
My wife and I went to London last year, maybe a couple years
52:13
ago at this point, and we saw a comedy of errors at the Globe
52:17
Theatre. And it's probably a touristy
52:21
thing to do, but it was such a great experience, like being
52:25
there and, and paying extra for the cushion on the seat, right?
52:28
Things like that. But being there and being, you
52:31
know, amongst the players of the, of the show and having
52:36
them, you know, talk through things and see that and, and
52:38
seeing the spit bubbles. And maybe there is a, a
52:41
correlation between the, the, the frequency of spit bubbles
52:45
and the quality of actor. I'm not quite sure.
52:47
But it was such a great experience.
52:49
And it's not something that I normally seek out because I'm
52:52
more of a, you know, sit in the comfort of my own home, watch it
52:56
on my, you know, giant TV and surround sound.
52:58
But there is something to be said to be in the location and
53:02
having people who are passionate about that craft put on a really
53:06
good show. And obviously it helps when the
53:07
content is is also good and relevant.
53:10
And the fact that, you know, we saw a comedy of errors and the
53:12
fact that it was written like 405 hundred years ago at this
53:16
point, you know, plus, and that there's still relevance to it is
53:20
shocking in my, in my view. Yeah, no, I it, it's, it's true.
53:23
And I, I think the risk I've been watching the Netflix series
53:30
the spy. And as you say, it's just, you
53:34
know, you kind of look at how things that are about times gone
53:38
by and it just how you know it, it, it, it brings home that how
53:43
the human condition is the human condition and the way we react.
53:47
So you know, that the kind of the spies kind of Mossad in a
53:50
previous era to now. But you can see, you can almost
53:53
kind of see how those those tensions are still here and how
53:56
they're translated in the situation that we're
53:58
experiencing in the world today. Is this, no matter how much
54:02
things change, and I think this is true in cybersecurity,
54:04
because I have this my favorite saying in cybersecurity is
54:07
nothing. There's nothing new under the
54:08
sun. You know, whatever you say, Oh,
54:09
have you seen this latest attack?
54:10
But when you drill down at the end of the day, it's, it's
54:12
something that we've seen before.
54:14
It's that's why it gives me this whole thing about that.
54:16
There's nothing new under the sun.
54:18
He's like, what has been before will be again.
54:21
And, and, and, you know, that's why I find cybersecurity
54:24
fascinating is because basically it's the, it's just kind of
54:27
reinvents itself. But it's, it's not, it's not
54:30
new, you know, like we just, you know what?
54:34
The way people have been deceiving each other, the way
54:36
we've been gaming each other, It's, it's the same.
54:39
It's just that maybe the tools change, but and, and that the
54:43
time changes. But if there is nothing new
54:45
under the sun. And that's why I think it's so
54:47
great about Shakespeare is, is that, you know, he was able to
54:51
identify this human condition and those human traits and kind
54:55
of the way people interact with each other and how we scam each
54:58
other and whatever. And, and just kind of put it
55:01
into the most amazing verse and prose and stuff.
55:04
And, and as you say, it kind of translate, it transcends time
55:07
and and cultural, that kind of stuff.
55:09
So yeah, pretty good. So I'm going to talk about my
55:12
experience with it. I went to two Broadway shows and
55:16
they were both, I think, around the same year.
55:20
I agree with Jeff, like the whole experience, like going
55:23
after dinner and then going to a show I thought was fantastic.
55:27
I think I picked the wrong shows to go to.
55:29
Oh no. So well, I didn't even pick.
55:32
So the first one that I was going to tell you was the show
55:36
Wicked, which became a movie. And I saw it before the movie
55:40
was released. But I just thought like, this is
55:45
not a show. My thoughts, Even though you
55:48
could pick up on things that kids wouldn't get right?
55:50
Because we've seen The Wizard of Oz and you know the backdrop and
55:54
I don't know how many people who are kids today have seen The
55:57
Wizard of Oz, but it was like a school trip because there were
56:03
half of the audience were children who were I think on the
56:05
school trip. And I was like, OK, well, this
56:09
wasn't the best show to go to. And I think the movie is
56:14
probably better than the show. This is where my hot takes are
56:18
going to get us a ton of hate because the other show that I
56:21
saw was Book of Mormon. And I also didn't like that.
56:26
And the reason I didn't like that was I thought that they
56:29
were making fun of Mormons. And I'm not a Mormon.
56:33
I don't have any like really close friends who are Mormons,
56:37
but I'm just not into making fun of people based on their
56:41
religion or, you know, their race or gender or whatever.
56:46
And so I just didn't like the show, and I felt like getting up
56:52
and leaving before it was. Even over oh God, you, you, you
56:55
wound me you wound me very deeply because one show I have
56:59
seen on Broadway was was wicked. I, I kind of, I managed to get
57:04
an ticket and at the, the moment where she says for the first
57:10
time in my life, I felt and the audience was anticipating the
57:14
word wicked. And clearly most of the people
57:16
who, who were in that audience had been before and knew it
57:19
really well. And when she said the word
57:21
wicked, I mean this, the whole, the whole kind of just exploded.
57:24
And to me, it's a very American musical because I've seen it in
57:27
London and it just doesn't work because the, the, the words like
57:30
popular doesn't, you know, you did just as popular doesn't
57:34
rhyme, rhyme correctly. But thing with, well, thing with
57:37
wicked, it's a, it's a palenessist, right?
57:39
So it's, it's a story that's been written over.
57:41
And I think there is just so much in there about prejudice
57:45
and, and kind of how people is people are conditioned to hate
57:49
things without really understanding why they should
57:51
hate things. And it's kind of it's all about
57:54
free speech and, and all that kind of there's just so much in
57:57
the gym and you need, you need, you need to look at it again.
58:00
And I think the show is way, way, way better than the films.
58:03
Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, so yeah, you you
58:05
wouldn't wait to work. One of the other ones I've seen
58:08
is Wicked. I saw at the Chicago Theatre, so
58:10
not on Broadway, but it was fantastic.
58:13
Yeah, it was great. I spoke with Idina Menzel and
58:17
Kristin Shire with So You Know I.
58:19
Mean I just show it. Off I mean it's just like, you
58:21
know, like, but to me that just was well, The thing is I said to
58:24
the concierge, look, I've got one night.
58:25
I just want to see a show on Broadway.
58:27
Go and see this nothing. Well, you know, was it a buzz?
58:29
Not for me said just trust me, go.
58:30
And it kind of, I think that was probably the answer I should
58:34
have given beginning, but I'm glad that I didn't because now,
58:36
Jim. That's how.
58:38
Here's how I think people who have made it to this point in
58:41
the show. If he's got a.
58:42
Strong opinion go to the YouTube whether you're watching on
58:47
YouTube or listen go to the YouTube and post a comment and
58:51
say who's right, who's wrong and you know keep it nice but my.
58:58
Guess is you're going to be in the minority gym but I don't
59:00
know. If you're going to be consenting
59:02
for. Our audience?
59:02
Who knows? Les mis I'm I got it on my list
59:06
OK. Next next time, next time you're
59:08
in London, make sure that you can see.
59:11
It and next year we'll have feedback for EIC and maybe all
59:17
have seen it at that point and we can discuss.
59:21
Jim, was dinner good at least, I mean.
59:23
Dinner. Dinner in New York City, around
59:25
Broadway. Wonderful.
59:27
What do you have? I don't remember.
59:32
I don't remember my last bad meal in New York City, though.
59:35
Yeah, New York has got great food, every great food.
59:38
All right, So we found a lighter way to to to pop off at the end.
59:40
So appreciate that. We do have, you know, like as
59:44
Jim mentioned, discounts to attend EIC this year.
59:47
So go to our website, idcpodcast.com, Scroll down,
59:50
grab that code, let's see what else we'll have.
59:53
Links in our show notes to connect with work as well as
59:56
some of the research he mentioned again, as well as the
59:58
link to EIC itself where people learn more about that.
1:00:02
Links for Jim and I to connect with us on LinkedIn.
1:00:05
Send us messages. Whether you agree or disagree on
1:00:08
whatever has been said here on any topic is always welcome and
1:00:12
work. Looking forward to giving you
1:00:14
the official fist bump of gratitude when I see you in
1:00:16
Berlin and. About looking forward to that
1:00:18
too. Yeah.
1:00:19
And so we'll go ahead and leave it there for this week.
1:00:22
Thanks everybody for watching and or listening and we'll talk
1:00:24
with you all in the next one. You've been listening to
1:00:29
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
1:00:33
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
1:00:37
But in the meantime, hit the website at
1:00:40
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
1:00:46
the Center.