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081 How Do I Build Relationships In The Industry? · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Join us each episode as we tackle the questions you are asking about a career in software development, understanding the industry, and new technology.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just starting out or you want to grow stronger as a developer, this is the place to get your questions answered.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's your host, expert developer and online educator, Tim Corey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do I build relationships in the industry?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And are relationships really necessary?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about this question in today's episode of Dev Questions.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with the simple one.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Are relationships necessary?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Nope, they're not.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you can be a developer, you can be a successful developer, and build no relationships, or at least not intentionally.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: That can definitely be the case.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, probably the majority of developers seem to operate this way.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, our industry tends to be very much a what um uh Scott Hansman calls uh black hole developers.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: The idea that you're just never seen or heard from, you're just assumed to be there since there's something there.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the work's getting done by somebody, but yet you're not online, you're not talking to other developers, you're not out in the community, you're not blogging or on Twitter or on YouTube or wherever else.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not necessary that you that you focus on building relationships in the industry.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: However, that's not the only question you should ask.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: The next question is: would it be valuable to build relationships in the industry?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is absolutely.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason why it's valuable is because the fact that it will open doors that you don't even know are there, let alone have access to open yourself.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to learn new things, you're going to grow as a developer, you're going to have a better big picture idea of where things are.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: You will have a better opportunity to help bring other developers into your company, and you will have a better opportunity to go to a different company if you have relationships.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about how do you build relationships with other software developers in the community?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this can be difficult for some people.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that, but I think it's important for all developers to work through and get over that just I can't, and start working on how do I do this in a way that suits me, but at the same time, maybe pushes me a little bit outside of my normal comfort zone.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, hang out with your fellow employees.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you work at a company where there are other developers, hang out with them, have lunch with them, talk with them outside of just in meetings or at work about work stuff.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Try and hang out and spend a little more time with them around work and see if you can't start building those relationships where you're not just coworkers, but you're friends.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: This can be pretty natural for some people.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And really, for most people, at least being friendly with your coworkers is a pretty common thing, hopefully.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you want to build those relationships because your coworkers will not always be at your company.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Your coworkers may leave, or you may leave.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what happens is just naturally, as you move from company to company or as your coworkers do the same thing, you will start to build relationships that network out and branch out into other areas in your area and even other areas across the country or across the globe as your friends move away.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this will allow you to start building that relationship pretty or that network pretty easily and pretty low pressure.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're just getting to know your fellow employees.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And by doing that, again, you're gonna build your skills because you know what?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know everything about your job.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Even if the new intern comes in, build a relationship with that person because you may learn something that you didn't know from that intern.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in the other way around, you will be able to impart knowledge to that intern that they didn't know.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you will help them, you will benefit them, and they will benefit you.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that relationship will be mutually beneficial, it will be something that you can both carry on throughout your careers and hopefully impact both your careers and help both of you move forward faster.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one way is to hang out with your fellow employees.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Number two is join a user group.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are user groups across the planet, so find the closest one.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's nothing that is within physical distance of you, meaning, hey, it's more than four hours trip or more than three hours away, wherever your limit is for travel for a usually once a month meeting, um, try and make that a pretty big area.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can't find something within, say, two hours that you can attend, then look for a virtual uh user group.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, as we're still in the COVID times, yeah, it's more difficult in some ways to join a local group that is meeting because of the fact that a lot of groups aren't meeting, but you can join virtual groups.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, virtual groups aren't as good as the uh in-person groups because the fact that the the networking that happens is a little bit more stilted, people a little bit more um they're they pop in, pop out a little bit more, they're not quite as there when they are there, they're more distracted and other things.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can, if at all possible, do things in person.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: But either way, join a group and start getting to know your fellow group members.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: This may be um difficult at times, but here you do volunteer, do something, anything, where maybe you stack chairs at the end of the group, maybe you clean up afterwards, maybe you go pick the pizza up beforehand, maybe you, you know, whatever it is to help the group out, that will raise your uh visibility with other people, where they can see you more like more easily, and they recognize you and see you helping out, and you become more visible to the people, and that leads to easier conversations.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: So join a user group, get to know people, start learning from those other developers, ask them stories, ask them for their stories.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Say, hey, you know, where do you work?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's the most challenging thing you come across?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's the funniest situation you've ever had at work?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Those kind of questions bring out stories of people that you can you can laugh with, that you can um enjoy, that you can be, you know, on your the edge of your seat talking about where they feel heard, they feel listened to, they feel like you actually care.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you do.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as you do that and you start having those conversations back and forth, you will learn a lot about the industry.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: You'll learn a lot about the person, you'll learn a lot about the different companies they've worked for and the situations they've been in.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And just that will grow your abilities and grow your knowledge and grow your uh understanding of how to do things.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it will also, again, build that relationship that can grow over time and hopefully become something that might benefit you and might benefit them as well.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, down the road, when you are you know working in a company, your boss says, Hey, we need to hire a SQL developer.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you've already talked to three different SQL developers and are friends with them and understand what they do, you could say, Hey, boss, I know of Mary, Bill, and Sue.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: All three of those are great SQL developers from what I've heard.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I tell you what, when I ask them to see if they're interested in switching jobs.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe, you know, Sue is out of a job right now.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You want me to reach out to her and see if she'd like to apply.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And now you've kind of elevated yourself in your boss's eyes because you know people, and that can be really beneficial for a boss.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You've also made your boss's life easier, and you've made your friends' life a lot easier because now they've bypassed the apply with a thousand other people and get treated like everybody else.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: You've now helped them get right to your boss, and your boss says, Hey, you come recommended by you know, by Tim.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can be a great way to help you, help your boss, help your current situation, help your friend.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then it can happen the opposite way as well, where you're the friend being helped by somebody else.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So join a group is another great way to encourage that networking.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Number three is consistently interact with specific developers online.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: The idea here is that okay, maybe you you're not around other developers, maybe you can't find developers in your area, maybe you're only in a virtual user group and you're trying.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: But another way you can do this is to interact with specific developers online.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you a story here.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, you know, or hopefully you know, I run a YouTube channel.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And on my YouTube channel, we have people who comment on every video.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Not the same people, but I have consistent people and I know them by name.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And in our company meetings, we have discussions where we name people and say, hey, this person brought up this point the other day, and we should think about that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes through, they are known by me because of the fact that they interact consistently on my videos.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell you what, when I open up a position for a web developer, I know of a couple of people who were consistently known to me on YouTube who applied.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that did not get them to the front of the line necessarily, but at the same time, it did elevate their resume to maybe uh more time with me.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was more interested to see more details about the resume.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't as quick with their resume in their portfolio because I wanted to understand more about where they were at.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in some ways, it did put them to the the top of the the first grouping.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I will tell you, I did not hire any of those people, but that doesn't mean they didn't get a little bit of special treatment because I knew them.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And while I treated everyone fairly, it didn't mean I didn't spend a lot of time looking at that person.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I could probably tell you what was the things that was were holding that person back, those people back.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I could tell you, okay, these are the things, and I went through hundreds of resumes and portfolios.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do not remember the vast majority, but I remember those people.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So just having interacted with me on YouTube got them a closer look.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's still up to you again when it comes to actually getting the job to be qualified to put your best foot forward and so on.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it did get them a closer look just by commenting consistently on my YouTube videos.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you are on Twitter and as a developer, you probably should be on Twitter because Twitter seems to be the most used uh social media platform for developers.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's other platforms, you could argue that like Reddit is a is one, well, yeah, yes and no.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't call Reddit social media, I would call it something different, but um, you know, of the Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, so on, Twitter is the one that is most common for developers.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Even LinkedIn isn't as important as Twitter is when it comes to developers.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I would be there and interact with a few different, not every, but a few different developers on there and just be known.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Be known where you are having good commentary about what they're saying.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you ask good questions or you follow up with, hey, I tried what you said and hear the results.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Have good interactions with people because then you are known to them.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe even you're helping out with their content a little bit because then you're helping them, and they when they're saying, Hey, I'm looking for this, they might think of you.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another way you can use your online interactions with social media to at least become known to other developers, if not also gain more influence or more ability to ask for things like, Hey, would you mind reviewing my resume?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or hey, would you mind, you know, looking over this thing I built based upon what you did?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you're not going to always be successful in that arena because the fact that everyone's time is limited.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't do personal code reviews, I don't do mentorships, I don't do one-on-one stuff anymore.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't have a time.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I will have small interactions with people.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I will notice people that continually and beneficially interact with my content.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you can still become known even if you don't get specific benefits, you might get uh more nebulous or more um occasional benefits out of those relationships.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, number four, so that's number three.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Number four is if you get the opportunity to go to a conference, first of all, do go to the conference, but then don't make the mistake of showing up right on time, going just to sessions, and then leaving in between sessions or you know, just working on your laptop.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Spend time in the halls.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I tell you what, the halls of a conference are more important than any session you'll attend.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why the virtual conference has been somewhat detrimental to the industry.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I know we've had to do that, and I am not at all protesting that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I understand the limitations that conferences have had with bringing lots of people together in a small space, but virtual conferences are not the same as physical conferences, just the sessions themselves are not enough.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And really, virtually meeting people is not the same.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Even having an in-the-hall conversation channel online, it's not the same.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have the opportunity to physically go to a conference, make sure that you hang out in the halls as much as possible talking to people.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just meet people.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you have to, go up to the snack table and stand next to somebody getting snacks too, and just say, hey, I'm I'm Tim.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you do for a living?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, start simple.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Have those conversations.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: If if you can't do that, or if you you know you you're full of cookies, then go sit in a chair that's near other people and introduce yourself.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes time for lunch, try to pick a table that already has people at it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Introduce yourself, listen to the conversation.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it can be awkward at times, but build start interacting with people, build a relationship.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you've had interactions with a person on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, wherever online, and you know they're at the conference and you see them, maybe eat lunch with them, introduce yourself, say, hey, I I love it when people introduce themselves to me because you know what?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have time during my normal everyday work week to do one-on-one stuff.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: But doesn't mean I don't want to.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love to talk to people, I love to interact one-on-one.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I'm in a spot where I have the time, having that one-one interaction is awesome.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you saw me at a conference, if you saw me where I was doing something where I have time, I'm sitting here, sitting there, you know, eating lunch or I'm standing at the cookie table or whatever, come introduce yourself.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Say hi.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And those kind of interactions will, again, deepen the relationship, allow for maybe more one-one advice or um help that that otherwise you couldn't get.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So those in-the-hall conversations can be huge.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's number four.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Number five is contribute to open source projects.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is making yourself known, but it's also about making yourself useful.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: The amount of people who use open source projects far eclipses the amount of people willing to work on open source projects.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Far eclipses.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea of someone showing up and saying, How can I help?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or, hey, I can't do much, but can I help you document?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, I built this little tool to help you out, or I fixed this one bug, or I fixed this documentation, or I added more documentation, I made this clearer, those kind of things help a project out.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and that in turn makes you known.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: It elevates you out of that crowd of everyone's the same, that those dark matter developers, and it elevates you into the light.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: It shows that you're a real person, an individual, and that people see you as you.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And again, them of you meet people at conferences when you maybe if you've you know grown a larger position, you might meet those people and say, Hey, do you want to work for me?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you reach out to them and say, Hey, I saw you have an opening and a position.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind if I applied?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and get that personal introduction.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of ways that can benefit you, but you're also benefiting somebody else as well by contributing, not just taking from open source.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the five ways that I see to build relationships and network in the industry.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: But there is one more, more specific thing that people ask about, and that is how do I get a mentor?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And this question goes with this idea of networking, but at the same time, it goes a little deeper than that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to talk a little bit about mentorship because there is some more depth here that we need to talk through.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, mentorship does not have to mean one-on-one.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the idea that is mentorship is just one-on-one, you're not gonna find as many people to mentor as that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so maybe broaden your definition of that and say, hey, who could I learn from?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: That could be just, for example, I have YouTube videos, I don't have time to mentor one-on-one, but you could learn from me, you could listen to what the advice I give and take that advice.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty close to a full mentorship.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a full mentorship, but it's close where you're getting advice, you're taking the advice, you're changing and improving based upon that advice.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe focus on that, where you, for the most part, get information from and advice from people online, a few specific people you pick out, and then you grow through that.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it can just mean learning under someone.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you really need to have or want to have that one-on-one relationship, and that those relationships are great.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just demand it from people, okay, don't just expect it from people.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: A one-on-one mentorship takes time, okay.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It so, for example, I hired a an intro, an entry-level web developer.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I said was, I will mentor you into the web developer that that I want.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: That takes a lot of time, and quite frankly, I haven't had all the time I've needed to do that mentorship just for one person.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, imagine how many people want to be mentored by me.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's just no way.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: If I can't mentor my one paid employee who's paid to be around when I'm available, then I really can't do a hundred people.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So don't expect that just because you like a person's teaching, you've learned under them, you've grown through them, don't expect that you can then just ask for and receive a one-on-one mentorship from them.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you get that, that's amazing.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Be very, very thankful for that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Be very, very appreciative of that.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say that don't go into asking for those relationships without expecting to pay for it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You are asking a lot from a person, expect to pay for it, offer to pay for it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even if out of the goodness of their heart, they say nope, you don't have to pay anything for it, which is awesome.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Those people are great.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but even if they say that, make sure you've offered.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because you want to show honor.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: You want to show that I know that your time is valuable.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know that that investment has taken time for you to learn and for you to pass it on to me is incredibly valuable to me.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, I want to show how valuable it is by what I offer you.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, on the flip side, if you have grown in the industry, if you have progressed beyond your hello world application, mentor somebody else.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, help somebody else along, build up somebody else.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't ask for someone else to mentor you to build you up to make you better without also being willing to do the same thing for someone else.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I would encourage you before you start asking for other people to help you, make sure you're giving back to somebody else.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my advice.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's my advice on mentorship.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: We may go into mentorship in more depth later, but I want to at least point that out because it is related to the idea of how do I network and build network relationships in the industry.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Dev Questions.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a question about being a developer, check out the podcast version of this or the YouTube video series on this dev question series, because probably a video already or a podcast episode already that answers that question.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, the two are the same: the podcast and the video.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: The difference is I'm on video on YouTube, I'm just on audio in the podcast.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: So check out both, uh, whichever way works best for you.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: As always, I am Tim Corey.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tim is committed to making it easier for you to become a developer.
• 24:28
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• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can also send your questions to questions at IamTimCorey.com.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember, you are too smart and your time too valuable to waste it making all the mistakes Tim did.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcorey.com and enroll in the course.