Latest / BBQ Therapy / #47 Ardie Davis aka Remus Powers | The BBQ Pioneer Who Helped Shape the Industry

Transcript

#47 Ardie Davis aka Remus Powers | The BBQ Pioneer Who Helped Shape the Industry · BBQ Therapy

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And the guy said the best wine is the wine you like, and turned
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out that guy owns the winery. Anyway.
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I thought that story applies to barbecue too.
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It's so I tell people the best barbecue is the BBQ you like.
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You can start a real argument in Memphis or in Kansas City.
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Who does the best barbecue? So we were pretty arrogant to
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say America's best. But it's a catchy title so I
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will tell people best barbecue is a BBQ you like.
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Exactly, that's definitely true because if you grew up on burnt
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BBQ, that might be what you used to barbecue.
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Barbecue, BBQ, BBQ, BBQ. Ever notice how the sound of
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sizzling meat and the smell of smoke can silence the noise of
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the world? Now that's BBQ therapy.
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If the fire moves you like, subscribe, share, and help
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spread the message because growth, like good BBQ, takes
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time and patience. Welcome to your therapy session.
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Welcome to the BBQ Therapy podcast.
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My name is Tavis Bryant and today we're joined by a true
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legend, the historian, storyteller, and the judge who
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shaped the way we see BBQ today. He's an author of More Than 10
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books and a KCBS certified master judge.
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And the man behind the famous Diddy Wah Diddy Sauce contest,
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the one and only Artie Remus Powers Davis.
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Welcome to the show. I got one rule.
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Make yourself at home and speak freely.
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Thank you and as if your audience is watching.
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This is totally unrehearsed, so I hope you'll edit in it out
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anything stupid that I say. It's OK.
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All right. We're going to start off from
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back at the beginning. From what I read, you were born
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in Oklahoma, correct? That's right.
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Yeah. Oklahoma City all.
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Right. And back then you were born in
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41, so growing up, what was the BBQ scene around that time?
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We I was started on 7th Street right near the Murrah building
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that was bombed in this famous Murrah building.
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And then we my dad was a car painter.
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He started as a body man. He was shocked.
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We moved out to the outskirts of Oklahoma City.
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At the time we had a gravel Rd. in front of the house and there
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was a BBQ place a block away and we could get what would probably
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be called a sloppy Joe now. It was baptized in pulled pork
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or full beef depending on what was available.
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You get that sandwich and a bun and a bag of potato chips and an
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RC cola for 1/4. Oh.
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Wow, that's how long ago it was. So that was just a block away.
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And then, of course, my dad liked to barbecue.
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He had to work until noon on Saturday, so he built his own
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BBQ pit. We bought it brick by brick and
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went to the, there was a place in Oklahoma City that made
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bricks. So we, my mother and I would go
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there and whatever we could afford, we'd buy the the bricks
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and they also had the fire bricks.
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So when he was ready for those, we got those.
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He wore that out just having neighborhood parties and with
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relatives and neighbors and it was mostly grilling steaks and
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stuff because he, as I said, he his only day off was Sunday and
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he, he had Saturday afternoon and Sunday.
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That was it. So he taught me using that pit.
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And then when that wore out, he got a Weber kettle and then he
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actually started some slow smoking BBQ.
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That's how I've learned. That's what I used today, just a
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Weber kettle. And I've asked these guys with
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thousands of dollars worth of equipment at contests, what
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would you do if you didn't have much money?
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And they said get a Weber kettle and it works.
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Yeah, it's definitely. True, the winner of Memphis in
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May. The first one, she just used a
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wash tub with a screen on top and she won the whole thing.
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Memphis in May downtown. Oh, wow, yeah, I read about
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that. It was cool, yeah.
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Talking about Lincoln, she's a legend.
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Exactly, using what you had and making it work.
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That's why people try to downplay what people cook on.
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But it's about knowing how to cook and not what you're
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cooking. Is that's right?
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Yeah. At A&R in Memphis, there's a an
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Elvis Presley Blvd. That's the only one I go to is
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slogan up on the wall that says anybody can put heat to the
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meat. Only a few can BBQ.
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I like that. That's definitely true.
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So you've lived through the full evolution of the BBQ culture.
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When did your love of BBQ first begin?
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When you got hooked? Was it watching the parties or
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did it catch on later on? Is from childhood on that what
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got me involved in BBQ contests and such was when we moved to
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Kansas City, I moved there from New York City.
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I was we've lived in New York City for 06 or seven years.
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It is in the 60's, the late 60s and it was quite, a quite an
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experience. I loved it.
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I worked at a YMCA downtown, 34th and 9th Ave.
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Some we had a babysitting pool and some friends from the
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babysitting pool in New York came to visit us in Kansas City.
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They thought Man, Kansas City, they were true New Yorkers.
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They thought, yeah, Cowboys and Indians and planes and all that.
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So they were impressed with how hilly it is and how much
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greenery there is and how much good BBQ there is.
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The first question the the guy asked me was, have you been to
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Arthur Bryant's? So I had never heard of Arthur
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Bryant's. Turns out now his granddaughter
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lives near me, Renetta Mckendra, and we're good neighbors and
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friends. So anyway, that's a long,
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another long story. We went to Arthur Bryant's with
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him, and I was hooked. That was when Mr. Bryant was
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alive, and he was always at the establishment when he was alive.
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In fact, he lived right upstairs there.
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One August in 1984, I got the idea to I was reading Good Food
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by Jane and Michael Stern and I thought I'll never be able to
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travel like they do and write about places where they eat.
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But they talked about 84 different BBQ places, I think 80
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some. I decided I'll just write to
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those places and see if I can get their sauce and get an idea
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of what their BBQ may be like. It wasn't wouldn't be the meat,
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but it would be the sauce. So I started doing that and then
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it dawned on me, why don't I make a contest of it?
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I was listening to Roy Cooter's Paradise and Lunch album.
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He was singing Blind Blake's song Diddy Wah Diddy.
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I thought, man, that's a great name for a BBQ sauce contest, so
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I decided I'd call it the Ditty Wah Ditty BBQ sauce contest.
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I spelled it with DS instead of TS and Ry Cooter sings that a
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lot like Blind Blake sings that. I have both versions recorded.
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I have some friends who live in Missouri told us about a guy
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named Paul Kirk that they thought lived in Roland Park,
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where I live. They said he would be a good
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judge. He's a BBQ guy.
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He gave me his phone number and so I called him and Paul Kirk
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showed up and with his wife Jessica, and that got me
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started. He was, they judged and it was a
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we had more than 100 sauces. I went all over Kansas City
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getting sauces and got a bunch in the mail from different
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places. My brother-in-law happened to be
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in town. He's ACPA, so I enlisted him to
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be the Comptroller and he did that.
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It was a huge job and it evolved from there.
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It got its own legs eventually after several years of hard work
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and good volunteers, including Paul Kirk.
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I barbecued the meat for that contest and I didn't season
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anything because I wanted the sauce to do the talking and I
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don't know, I thought it was good BBQ.
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Paul. Paul volunteered after that to
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be the head of Kitmaster. He would laugh at that, but and
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we lost him unfortunately not long ago, but last.
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But he and I became good friends and he's taught me a lot about
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Kansas City BBQ and how to do it.
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And I was his Gopher in some of his classes.
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So I like to channel what Paul taught me.
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He was always saying, I'll document it, write it down what
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you did. So if you did a good job, you'll
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be able to repeat it. I'm really bad about this.
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I don't know. I got that's that got me started
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that then tending fires at Memphis in May 1 year.
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Staying up all night tending fires taught me this is hard
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work. I really admire the cooks who do
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this to compete and it takes a special person to do that.
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I decided these judges, they get to sleep all night and go to the
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contest, eat this good stuff. So I think I'll take that on.
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That's what I did and then I got involved with BBQ Society.
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And but it's just if like Ben and Jerry said with their
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business motto, if it isn't fun, why do it?
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And it's been a lot of fun, still is.
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But I admire what you're doing trying to attract more people
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into the passion and therapy of BBQ.
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I'm trying to do that as well as speak to there's a lot of people
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that people don't even know about, so I'm trying to get a
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lot of the history also because it's lost.
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And that's right. We don't know about it, but I'm
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going to talk about that a little later, but when you
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started the sauce card, how long did it take you to gather all
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those sauces together? Oh, I started in August and I
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had the contest in October and sauces were still coming in, so
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oh wow, it took a few months. Because technology went the
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same. Yeah, yeah.
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When I take on a project, I'm both feet in the and involved.
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And let's get into the your persona, Remus Powers.
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What inspired the outfit, the name and what did it allow you
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to express to the BBQ culture? OK, if you haven't detected,
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people don't believe me, but I'm extremely shy and my dad was
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even worse, said. And I decided I was going to try
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to do something to cure that because it was a real burden for
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him. So anybody who can wear a Remus
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Powers outfit, a Derby hat and a apron with rib bones on it and
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Remus Powers PHB Doctor BBQ philosophy.
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I'm a philosophy major, by the way.
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I do love philosophy. I, I append that name in
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college. My wife, who's my wife now, we
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met in college and I decided to write some poems to her, which I
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would now call doggerel because I admire real poets too.
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I was terrible at it, but it worked.
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I did some love poems for her and I went under the pen named
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Remus Powers. Remus from the Uncle Remus
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stories. That really fascinated me in
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childhood. I know the Disney version of
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Song of the South gets a lot of Flack because of the Uncle Remus
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in that. But when you look at the real
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Uncle Remus as portrayed by Joel Chandler Harris, I have a lot in
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common with him. I haven't obviously never met
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him. I've been to the Wren's Nest
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where he lived in Atlanta. I told Jim Achmoody, who was on
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the board at the time, that I want to see where Harris wrote
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and I want to see the room where he died, and I got to see both
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of those. Anyway, there's the brew rabbit
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stories are universal every any. I think most people can identify
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with the trickster in the rabbit brew rabbit in the IT was a code
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for what to do, how to handle being oppressed, and one of the
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directors of the Wren's Nest, Harris's home, wrote a an essay
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once it's online about everything you know about Uncle
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remus is wrong and the Disney stereotype is what causes that
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'cause that essay. One thing that really impressed
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me is Briar Rabbit does what I call briar patch Tai Chi He
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figures out what the enemy or what the people who want to be
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him in can, what motivates them, and then he uses that to gain
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his freedom from them. In the case of the briar patch,
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he said don't throw me in there. You can BBQ me, you can skin me,
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you can do whatever you want. Don't throw me in that briar
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patch 'cause they, he knew that's what they wanted.
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They wanted to hurt him as the most that they could and
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throwing him in the briar patch was, he wanted them to think was
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the worst. So sure enough, that's what he
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got. And he laughed when they did it.
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He said this was my home. Thanks a lot.
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And another story that Uncle Remus himself in the books that
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Harris listened carefully to the dialect of the former enslaved
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people that that lived or came past the plantation where he was
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raised, he was illegitimate. I don't think anybody's
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illegitimate regardless of their heritage.
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And in fact, my grandfather in the Ozarks of Missouri was
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called a wood sculpt because he didn't have a quote legitimate
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father. So I could relate to Harris in
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that respect too. And I long story anyway, the
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story I want to tell is Uncle Remus would do teaching moments
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with the son of the plantation owner in the stories.
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And one of them the son looked at Uncle Remus's palms of his
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hands and he said, hey, your palms look just like mine.
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And Uncle Remus chuckled and he said, well sure.
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Didn't you know that we all come from Africa and your ancestors
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used to be the same color as I am?
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And the little boy thought that was funny, but it was really he
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if when you study anthropology, you find out that was true, we
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all started in Africa, that is. And it was a way that Uncle
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Remus was subversive to the he was teaching the young the
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truth. And I like that.
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That's a good name and good concept that you came with
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'cause you actually just didn't make it up.
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You had thought behind it. Young Powers happened to be the
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mechanic where my dad worked in a Lincoln Mercury shop that was
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near the Murrah building. In fact, one of the axles or the
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axle from the truck that exploded landed in the alley
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where my dad worked. My dad was retired at the time.
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But anyway, he was Powers and he had the wire rim glasses and he
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was cool guy like James Dean. And I thought, and I want to be
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like Powers when I grow up. And my dad said, I think you're
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going to go to college. I I don't want you to have to
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make a living like this. And he hired me one summer after
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a hailstorm in Oklahoma City, After measuring a Lincoln
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Continental with a piece of sandpaper several times over, I
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decided my dad was right. Do something besides make a
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living that way. But that's my story.
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That's how I put the two together, Remus and Powers.
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That's a good story. I'm a philosopher.
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So the American Royal, they contacted you about the sauce
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contest. How did you?
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Was the American Royal really big like it is now back?
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Then it wasn't as big, but it was big.
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I set my date in October. At that time, the American Royal
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was in November. So I set my date for the sauce
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contest so it wouldn't conflict with the meat contest.
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And sure enough, they got tired of the cold weather in November
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at that time and they changed their date to my date.
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So I called the Royal and I said I explained the problem and they
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said you need to talk to Jack K. He's head of the he's chairing
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the BBQ contest. So I called the Jack K and we
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met at an apple place and had ribs and talked for an hour or
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so. And after that we decided let's
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just marry the sauce contest with the meat contest.
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So we shook hands on it and I recruited volunteers for several
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years and the first year at the Royal it was called the Didi Wah
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Didi. And then I think they thought
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that sounded too serious that this is my joke.
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So they changed it to the American Royal and now it's the
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American Royal World Series of BBQ sauce and rub contest.
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We we added rubs later. We even had base at the Royal,
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but now it's sauces and rubs, so it had to get its own legs
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because it's a lot of work it takes.
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We had Price Waterhouse Coopers for a while doing the
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comptroller's. Young Cpas would come with their
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laptops and do the comptrolling and we had people spinning
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basically almost all night pouring sauces into containers
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that were numbered instead of marked.
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So it was blind judging. And in fact, Joe Mcguff, who was
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the sports editor at the Kansas City Star, he was one of my
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judges when the contest was at Crown Center.
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Oh, by the way, my wife said this is too much trouble for our
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little house. You've got to find a where to do
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this. So we did it at the Prairie
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Center one year, the second year, and after that we did it
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for the Multiple Sclerosis Society.
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And that was a Crown Center, and Joe Mcguff was a judge there.
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So he said these cups you're using, that's not healthy, you
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need to have some squeeze bottles.
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So we ever since then, we've used squeeze bottles.
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Thanks to Joe Mcguff. He later became editor of The
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Star. And now he's gone, of course.
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But that's one problem with being born in 1941 you had.
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You see a lot of people come and go.
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But you've seen the whole history of barbecue and where
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wood is and where it is now. For that, and I'm grateful for
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you, you're doing a good job. I'm trying to started with the
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creation of the KCBS. Were you there at the beginning
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when they thought about putting? Yeah, I was a charter member.
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I wasn't one of the first 5 or 6 who joined, but Paul Kirk was.
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He was on the first board and then I became a charter member,
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one of the 1st 25, and then I became a board member later for
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several terms. And so I was there basically at
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the beginning. I knew Gary Wells and Carolyn
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Wells is still a friend. We're writing a 40th anniversary
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cookbook for the BBQ Society, and Paul Kirk was actually
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helping with that. And I told Carolyn and Paul this
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is going to be our swan song. And of course, Paul honored the
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guy that he is. He starts singing too early, so
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he's gone. But I can channel a lot of his.
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I have other recipes that he did for books that we didn't get
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published. And I I can channel him when
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we're writing. Yeah.
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Yeah. Paul was in charge of the
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marketing committee when he was on the board and he said we
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need, I think he was impressed with Memphis and May's judging
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certification. He said we need to do that with
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KCBS. So why don't you propose
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something? So I wrote this big proposal
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about at the time I thought being judging 30 contests would
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be a big deal. You could be a master judge.
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They've since added other requirements, cooking with a
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team, and that I think that's a good requirement.
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So I did the proposal and the board accepted it and it just
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sat there. Nothing happened after that.
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And so Ed Royce called me, said he was on the board at the time.
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He said let's put a curriculum together and let's get this
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thing rolling. I credit Ed with getting us
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started with writing. He came over to my house and we
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sat in the kitchen at the counter and worked out that
23:02
curriculum. And of course, it's been revised
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since then, but we started the whole certification program
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right, just right near the Patty over the Diddy Waddy was born.
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All right, so you're a certified master judge entitled it very
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few hold. Can you break down what that
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means as far as? And now when you write the
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rules, right now, you have to judge at least 30 contests.
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There's a book where the representative, they call them
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contest Rep or the sponsor or anyone involved officially with
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the contest, they can sign your book saying that you judged that
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contest. You have to do at least 30
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contests. You have to cook, shadow a cook
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team. And right now, as far as I know,
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that's it. There's a test that you take and
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a course that you take. It's for several hours, but
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that's where they review the rules and you actually eat some
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real BBQ. Each of the four meat
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categories. And there's a few trick
24:10
questions and a few trick presentations to see if you're
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paying attention. And then you explain why you'd
24:19
rated something the way you did that kind of stuff.
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It's a interactive hands on course and after you pass that
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you're a certified BBQ judge. So I, I don't say it's the only
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way I've judged in Houston. I really like how they have more
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longer point scan and in the case of BS we just go from zero
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to 9. They go up, gosh, 15 or 20 on
24:47
some categories and they judge aroma 'cause you can't taste if
24:52
you can't smell. And so you smell it first and
24:55
you judge the aroma. Make sure you smell a little bit
24:58
of Hickory smoke or in Texas Mesquite or whatever, post oak,
25:03
whatever they're using. But you should smell some smoke
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and then you judge that you rate it on aroma.
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So that's one thing I love about the Houston style.
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And I don't know if the other contests in Texas use that or if
25:20
they if it's exclusive to the world champion contest in
25:25
Houston. But I'm also certified with
25:30
Memphis in May and the Memphis BBQ Association.
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They they all, I'm not a I'm not dogmatic about it.
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I don't know what Memphis. They say hold your hand up if
25:45
you're KCBS certified and then if you do, then they say forget
25:49
everything they told you. We don't do that in Kansas City.
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We're more inclusive and accepting of if you love BBQ,
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you're our people. When you're sitting at a judging
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table, what separates an average entry from an unforgettable 1?
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That's in the oath I wrote and I say you will judge subjectively
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and objectively. Objective is limited to is it
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the right kind of meat? Is it presented correctly
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according to KCBS rules, that kind of thing.
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The objective rules, the answering your question, it's
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really a subjective thing and it's it doesn't have that.
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Wow, I want a kiss of smoke. I have friends who want really
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boatload of smoke. I'd call it.
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And to me that makes it's you can smoke it too much to the
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point that it's bitter. I don't like bitter BBQ.
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I like to kiss a smoke. I like to know that it was
26:59
barbecued. There's three-way three styles
27:03
of BBQ. There's kissed or there's naked.
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First, it's unseasoned and that's the real test of a a BBQ
27:12
the cook anyway, if they can cook it unseasoned and it's
27:15
good, then that's got the wow factor.
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It can be kissed with BBQ sauce or it can be baptized in BBQ
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sauce. And to me, it's a meat contest.
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So I I like to taste the meat. I don't want the sauce to
27:32
overpower the meat. So an ideal entry for me, and
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judges vary by this, would be I can taste that it's barbecued,
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it's tender, it's easy to chew and it's got that wow factor.
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It makes my mouth sing. And we eat some saltines and
27:54
take a sip of water between judging and it's a hands on
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thing to pick up the rib and eat it and taste it and pull the
28:03
meat. If it's brisket, it's basically
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what it's all about it. If it's that good, it gets a
28:11
nine. I'm pretty lenient with
28:15
presentation. If it fits the objective
28:17
standards, I'll give it an 8 or a nine.
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It's the taste and the tenderness that are important,
28:26
the most important. Oh.
28:28
Yeah, definitely. Do you know around how many
28:31
competitions you judge to date? I stopped counting I it's been
28:37
really been going on 40 years. I judged Jack Daniels for I
28:43
wasn't at the first one, but I judged for 33 years there and
28:50
promised to go back to the 40th anniversary.
28:53
It'll be in three years and I want to give the oath.
28:56
I always gave the oath. Now my grandson Zachary is
29:00
giving the oath. I told him you have to memorize
29:03
it cause but contests, if somebody's not there who's
29:08
memorized it, they read the oath and I said, but you've got to
29:13
memorize it and say it from memory and it's not that
29:17
difficult. So he did a good job last year
29:20
and he's all excited about going this year.
29:23
And this year I'm not there. I'm writing a thing about Plato,
29:27
the philosopher who could time travel, and I think it's 4200
29:34
years or so. And his spirit is there at the
29:38
Jack this weekend, along with the spirits of all those people
29:43
who have been there or who wish they had been there.
29:47
And now I call us free spirits, and they're spirits now.
29:53
It's just, it's my friend who worked with Hallmark.
29:58
He says, well, you're into science fiction.
30:00
It's fun. So the actual spirits probably
30:05
outnumber the number of judges there.
30:07
I can just think of all kinds of people that I've met through the
30:12
years who are gone now. Unfortunately, Paul Kirk's going
30:16
to be there in spirit, but his wife and his daughter Aaron will
30:20
be there. He taught her a lot about BBQ.
30:24
Yeah, he was a legend. Let's talk about this.
30:27
This is one of the main points I wanted to bring up that I stayed
30:31
before they got like in sports, if I wanted to see stats, I can
30:37
go look at anybody's stats going all the way back.
30:39
But when it comes to barbecue, it only goes back a certain year
30:45
and then it just non existent and you have to go by word of
30:48
mouth. What are your thoughts on that?
30:51
Where we're unable to see where some of the other legends, we're
30:56
not able to see where some of the other legends what they did
31:01
and can't compare them to what we see today.
31:06
Yeah, yeah. And today is it's becoming very
31:09
different as even BBQ restaurants who they used to be
31:14
brick pits and there's evolved to that.
31:18
Now they're using stainless steel ovens and high tech stuff
31:23
and it works. Given the volume and the
31:26
popularity of BBQ, you have to do that.
31:29
But I was glad to see Rodney Scott still does his whole hog
31:34
all night long and he's there attending it.
31:38
And that's the old style that I admire.
31:42
Old style to us, I have postcards of and you've, I'm
31:47
sure you've seen pictures of when there would be a community
31:51
BBQ, they would just dig a trench or several trenches in
31:54
the ground, put grade over the trench and put coals first.
32:00
They'd put coals in the trench and then BBQ that way.
32:05
And they're all just all styles. I guess there's a little bit of
32:09
our condo material, but a lot of it's just we have to imagine.
32:15
What did they do? Yeah, I like to say that
32:18
barbecuers were the original philosophers 'cause they used to
32:22
sit around the campfire doing live fire BBQ with the meat of
32:27
the day. That from their hunt, talking
32:30
about the meaning of life and other philosophical questions.
32:35
That's where we got the expression.
32:36
I have a bone to pick with you. That's my story.
32:41
Somebody asked me is that true? And I said no, but it sounds
32:46
good. Because there's so many people
32:48
that we don't know about, like Donnie Teal back in the day and
32:53
when Paul Kirk and them used to compete, but we have no stats to
32:56
look up and see scores and what competitions they won and stuff
33:01
like that. Were there anybody back then
33:03
that you, because you've been through a lot that compares the
33:07
people like Darren Worth and Brad Lightinger and Travis Clark
33:12
that were back then that we may not know about?
33:16
I think you know about most of them, like the one that is the
33:20
most conscientious about repeating what he does and is
33:26
familiar with the science of BBQ.
33:29
I'd say Tuffy Stone is one of those.
33:32
Chris Slowly is another he he's he experiences.
33:38
They both experience contest style and restaurant style
33:42
'cause I really admire people like who who do both Footsie
33:48
Tomonets is another my, I guess you'd say heroin.
33:53
She she doesn't even use a thermometer.
33:55
She just puts her hand on the pit.
33:57
She can tell whether it's the right temperature and I love her
34:01
BBQ and her beans she just makes from scratch.
34:06
I told her that the one time I was there in person I get to see
34:11
her every year as at the American Royal and I told her
34:17
how much I love those beans and she got an old pickle jar and
34:20
filled it with her beans and said here take these.
34:23
So I took them and Paul wanted me to share them and
34:28
unfortunately they were gone by the time he was ready for them.
34:33
So that's when we were traveling all over Texas at the time and.
34:40
When it come to competition BBQ, what do you think was what was
34:43
your greatest moment in competition BBQ?
34:47
Oh gosh, it's hard to say. It's a lot of it is memorable.
34:52
Every contest is memorable in its own way.
34:56
I really liked how Memphis and they would originally when it
35:03
was in Tom Lee Park and it was volunteers Mike Cannon set the
35:10
basically the infrastructure of the contest.
35:13
Mike died this I think a year or two ago.
35:18
They had a reception for the judges at the Orpheum Theatre, I
35:23
think downtown, and they had local food restaurants cater the
35:30
event and they welcomed all the judges, gave them a little bit
35:34
of orientation. Judging at that was memorable.
35:40
Jack Daniels is another. They treat people well there.
35:47
You get a bag full of swag and the local product.
35:52
As they say, there's always a bottle of the local product in
35:54
the swag bag and you get the Jack Daniels experience there.
36:03
I'd say the Jack Daniels Memphis in May.
36:08
The American Royal. Those 3 stand out in my mind is
36:13
and it's hard to save what year was the best because they're all
36:17
good in their own way. I I do miss that the American
36:22
Royal. I miss the West Bottoms
36:24
environment where the American Royal is now.
36:28
And then eventually they're moving to out near the
36:32
racetrack, the Legends area. But on the West Bottoms, I could
36:39
actually go to each team and socialize for a little bit.
36:45
It's so big now with up to 500 teams, but I can't do that and
36:53
my legs are it's a lot of walking.
36:56
And I have to admit when you're 80 going on 84, you slow down a
37:01
little bit. So fortunately they'll they have
37:05
golf carts. So I'll ask them, I'll see who's
37:08
there and I say I've got to see BBQ Shoguns from Japan.
37:13
They take me there and see them and see other Chris Lilly and
37:19
Tuffy Stone make a point of seeing them.
37:24
Don McLemore was is Chris's father-in-law.
37:27
Sometimes he's with him. So it's they're all and then the
37:33
smaller contest. This last Saturday I was at
37:36
Gladstone. They had a smoke fest and as
37:41
meat's becoming so expensive, they just limited the 8:00 to
37:46
1:00 category ribs. And they said that they had
37:51
steak too. Rib eye, that's expensive.
37:56
So I think next year they might switch to chicken because that's
37:59
cheapest. And to me, the true test of a
38:03
barbecuer is you can take the cheapest, toughest meat and make
38:09
it give it that wow quality. That's always the test for me.
38:13
If you can't BBQ with the cheapest toughest meat and make
38:18
it delicious, you you haven't mastered it yet.
38:22
But unfortunately in the contest they're trying to up their game
38:28
so they'll buy prime quality and Wagyu or some fancy marbled
38:34
meat. Maybe that works for them, but
38:36
to me that's not a not the true test of a BBQ.
38:41
But. Definitely, I agree with that
38:43
100% and it took the fun out of the competition wise because if
38:47
somebody can't afford to meet it's not fair.
38:51
But if everybody's on level playground and getting regular
38:53
meat, then we can see who's the best cook.
38:56
That's exactly. And KCBS used to, We had spring
39:01
training before there was there were very many contests and
39:06
you'd pay at the same price and you'd get the same kind of meat.
39:12
Every team would get the same type of meat.
39:15
That's how it should. Be I agree.
39:17
OK, let's switch over to your books.
39:20
You've authored more than 10 books on BBQ.
39:23
What first drew you to capturing barbecue and writing?
39:29
I like to write for one thing. That's where like Joel Chandler
39:33
Harris said, the other guy takes over when I write and then when
39:38
I when you write, you can do that.
39:40
You're anonymous, so to speak. But actually what got me into
39:46
book writing was I was asked to do it.
39:51
Karen Adler who does the local food or BBQ Book broker I would
39:58
say. She had what she called the Pig
40:02
Out publications and she said why don't you do a primer on
40:06
Kansas City BBQ. So I said OK I'll do it.
40:10
So I wrote that was my first book, the Kansas City BBQ Primer
40:16
or something like that and I did it under the title Remus Powers
40:20
PHB. And then this guy named Dennis
40:25
Hayes out in Oakland, CA with 10 Speed Press called.
40:30
He said we're doing a great BBQ sauce book, how about you write
40:35
it? I said OK, and so I did that and
40:40
that I just got all kinds of sauces that way.
40:45
And what I've learned, there were times when I thought, why
40:49
did I say yes to this? Because there's so many tomato
40:54
based sauces and to write something unique about each one
40:59
was a real challenge. So I read Anne Lamott.
41:03
She has a really good book. She's very irreverent writer,
41:07
but I admire her style. She wrote a book called Bird by
41:11
Bird and it's based, The title is based on her brother who put
41:17
off writing an essay on birds until the day before it was due.
41:23
And he went to his dad and he said, dad, I've got this term
41:29
paper project I've got to do on birds and I haven't even
41:33
started. And the dad said, son, you just
41:36
do it bird by bird. And I decided I'm going to do
41:40
this book sauce by sauce. And I got it done.
41:45
And then after every book I've done, some somebody has said
41:51
called me and said, would you do this book?
41:52
So I don't if it's about BBQ, I can't say no.
42:00
But I did learn in writing about America's best barbecue.
42:06
A friend who was a doctor research researcher at the
42:11
University of Kansas, he told me a story.
42:15
He was a World War 2 pilot. And he said we had a reunion of
42:19
the pilots in France and it was at a winery and I'm not into
42:24
wine. He said that people were
42:26
sampling the wines of this winery.
42:29
He was standing off to the side and this guy walked up to him.
42:33
They got acquainted a little bit.
42:35
And Stan, my friend, said, I can tell you know something about
42:39
wine. Tell me what?
42:41
How do I know what's the best wine?
42:44
And the guy said the best wine is the wine you like, and turned
42:49
out that guy owns the winery. Anyway.
42:55
I thought that story applies to barbecue too.
42:59
It's so I tell people the best barbecue is the BBQ you like.
43:04
You can start a real argument in Memphis or in Kansas City.
43:08
Who does the best barbecue? So we were pretty arrogant to
43:12
say America's best. But it's a catchy title so I
43:18
will tell people best barbecue is a BBQ you like.
43:22
Exactly. That's definitely true, because
43:23
if you grew up on burnt BBQ, that might be what you used to.
43:26
Yeah, that's. Right.
43:28
That's right. Yeah.
43:30
So you did a lot of collabs with Paul Kirk and some books.
43:33
What made your friendship and collaboration so special?
43:37
He reminded me of my grandpa in a lot of ways.
43:40
He's real gruff on the outside and just tender hearted on the
43:46
inside. You wouldn't know it.
43:47
I in fact he was astonished one time when I told him all people
43:52
are intimidated by you. And he said he really said why?
43:58
And I said, I guess you know so much, you've got this
44:02
reputation. And he just couldn't comprehend
44:06
how anybody would be intimidated by him because if you got to
44:10
know him, he's he was just a very tender hearted guy.
44:14
And he had his own style of philanthropy.
44:17
He would feed the homeless on Saturdays here in Kansas City.
44:21
He was a chef, certified working chef.
44:24
And he would cook up some BBQ or big pots of soup and go down.
44:30
There's a park right next to Crown Center and a lot of
44:34
homeless people live there. And he they'd just be ton word
44:39
got around. Lots of people would come and
44:42
eat his food. So that and we travelled a lot
44:49
together writing books and it was a good partnership.
44:54
I regret that. Like I said, he started singing
44:57
too soon. I'd call him up.
44:59
I'd say Paul, you're too ornery to die.
45:01
And he'd just chuckle. He had to pass away.
45:07
That's the life cycle. We didn't.
45:08
We know what's going to happen to all of us.
45:10
But he left behind a good legacy, so he definitely will be
45:13
remembered. Yeah.
45:16
And you? How long have you been writing
45:18
for the BBQ News magazine? How did they get started?
45:21
Oh, that Carolyn Wells started it as a newsletter.
45:26
I think she mimmographed it back in the day when you they had the
45:30
mimmograph machines. I can still smell that ink that
45:35
they used then it then they hired Bunny Tuttle to be an
45:39
editor for the newspaper. So I've been writing, gosh,
45:46
almost 40 years for the bull sheet and people say what do
45:50
they pay? They pay nothing.
45:53
It's just in the same with the BBQ news.
45:55
I've met Doc Gillis and Joe Phelps at Memphis in May 1 year,
46:00
they were starting the BBQ news and they said say we sure
46:04
appreciate you, would you write some articles for us?
46:07
And I said sure, I'll do it. Been doing it ever since.
46:13
And our society, our culture is so monetized and people ask me,
46:18
especially younger people, what do you get paid for that?
46:21
And I say nothing. And with books, it's a labor of
46:25
love. Unless you're a big name, you
46:28
just don't make much on royalties.
46:32
But you do it because you want to share.
46:34
And that's, and again, if it's if it isn't fun, why do it?
46:40
If you like to write and you like to share, then you're in
46:45
the right place. Doesn't matter whether you get
46:48
make a lot of money from it or not.
46:50
And I subscribe. I've been subscribing for a
46:52
while now and I live in Georgia. That's a great state.
46:55
I love Georgia. I do too.
46:58
I do have to say they're a little bit on the hogwatism
47:01
scale. Not at least I think in Georgia
47:06
you can BBQ more than hogs, but in the Carolinas if it's not
47:11
hog, it's not BBQ. So I call them Hormatus.
47:17
Yeah, we little old you wrote an article in the BBQ News
47:21
magazine. It was the art and science of
47:24
BBQ. Can you break that down as far
47:26
as what do you see as art and what do you see as science when
47:30
it comes to barbecue? Glad you asked because I'm still
47:35
searching for the answers. The art.
47:38
The art is the intangible part, and that's when you see artful
47:46
barbecue and you taste it and you've found it.
47:50
The science. I have real issues with calling
47:54
anything the science of BBQ when there are so many variables like
47:58
the weather, the background of the cook, the local culture, the
48:06
available, the type of meat, the quality of meat that you can
48:09
get. There's so many variables it
48:13
it's really hard to to make it as science.
48:16
Now meathead really admire what he's done with the calling it
48:22
the science of BBQ, hiring a guy with a physics degree and doing
48:27
tests and everything. But again, you could follow any
48:31
recipe in his books or any book, any cookbook and get the same.
48:37
You won't get the same result. That is that the person who did
48:44
the recipe got it. There's a guy in Florida who,
48:49
gosh, what's his name? At my age, there's so much up
48:52
here that I'll think of the name anyway, he said.
48:55
It's intangible, said I put love in my barbecue and nobody can do
49:02
it the the way I do it 'cause they can't love it the way I do.
49:06
And so I'd say if it's a science, it's a very inexact
49:13
science. Paul was always telling me, as I
49:16
mentioned, write it down, document it.
49:20
That's one step toward making it a science.
49:23
Tuffy Stone would probably agree.
49:26
Write it down, keep a journal. And I think that's good advice,
49:30
but don't count on it being the same.
49:34
Even following exactly the way you did it, it would be
49:38
disappointing. And then some cooks will tell
49:41
me, man, I turned in the worst chicken I've ever cooked, Turns
49:46
out it gets a blue ribbon in the 1st place.
49:49
And the same with beans or brisket or ribs.
49:55
They'll say man, I turned in the worst I've ever cooked, Turns
49:58
out it won grand champion. If you can say they could say
50:04
this was my worst year of cooking.
50:06
They ended up being grand champion, so you never know.
50:10
Yeah, it's definitely true. I tell people, just don't try to
50:16
second second guess the judges just do it the way that fits
50:21
your standards and they like it or they don't, and if you're
50:26
lucky, you win. That's true.
50:31
We started doing a magic Hickory nut ritual.
50:36
Reach team that is competing gets a magic Hickory nut and I
50:41
started with I they were just blank nuts that I would marinate
50:46
in Jack Daniels and Kansas City water and dry them out.
50:51
I would say to them and I'd put some BBQ seasonings, some sauce
50:56
and some rub. Just give it a little smell.
51:01
I would tell the teams I put all the magic I can into this.
51:04
Now it's up to you to to add to the magic.
51:07
And if you got the magic nut, we'll see you on the award
51:10
stage. And Denny Mike, who in Maine
51:16
helped us do the nuts one year and he said, why don't you put
51:19
the logo on these nuts. So ever since then, that was
51:24
years ago, the nut, each nut has the contest logo on it.
51:29
And since I, I don't say retired, I've rewired.
51:35
I don't travel much anymore locally I do.
51:40
But in terms of flying and all that stuff, I'll do that again
51:45
for the Jack, assuming I'm here for another 3 or 4 years that
51:52
now where was I? Where was I going with that
51:55
anyway, Oh, the magic nuts. We've done the the since I
52:00
retired from that, I found a fellow barbecuer who would
52:05
continue the tradition of the burning of regrets on Friday
52:08
night. I'll tell you that story and the
52:12
magic Hickory nuts. That's only at the Jack Daniels.
52:15
You could get these nuts and I tell people these are good luck
52:19
nuts forever for As for as long as you have that nut, you take
52:24
good care of it and it'll take good care of you.
52:27
And magic is a intangible anyway, so that tradition
52:34
continues. It has the Brian Nowatney is the
52:37
person who took it on. James Reynolds, who used to be a
52:42
security guard at the Jack Daniels Distillery.
52:46
He and his wife, Wanda, harvest the nuts.
52:50
And at a secret location. I can't tell you where it is,
52:54
but I can tell you it's in Tennessee.
52:58
They're really, he called me this morning.
53:00
He said we found, we harvested 200 nuts for next year and he
53:06
finds really good ones. And you had to be there.
53:09
I could go on and on about Hickory nuts, but it takes 20
53:12
years before a Hickory nut tree. This, these are shag bark
53:16
Hickory nuts before it even starts to produce nuts.
53:20
So they are very special nuts and they're hard to crack, but
53:25
they're in the pecan family. Anyway.
53:28
We do that and then the burning of regrets.
53:31
Paul used to help with that. I got the idea from the burning
53:37
of the Old Man of Bloom in New Mexico, I believe, and I
53:42
proposed that to Tana Shoop, who was head of the Jack Daniels BBQ
53:46
at the time. Then she changed her back to her
53:49
maiden name and a friendsly I said let's do this burning of
53:55
regrets in a pig and I made a paper mache pig to burn and she
54:01
said that is the ugliest pig I've ever seen.
54:05
She talked to Tony Stone who had a welding shop, a metal
54:11
workshop. He designed a metal pig and we
54:17
said what can we call it? Jasper Jasper happens to be the
54:22
real Jack Daniels first name, Jasper Newton Daniel.
54:25
I don't know where he got the name Jack, but people called
54:30
Jack and so this pig is named Jasper and I've always thought
54:36
maybe he regretted that name. So that's perfect name for this
54:40
pig. So anyway, Paul's name is going
54:43
into the pig this year, along with others that we miss.
54:47
And anybody can telepath their regrets.
54:50
This Friday night we burn that pig and you can telepath your
54:56
regrets into that pig's belly. It's a metal pig.
55:00
We'll toss it on the fire, count as 0 from 10 to 0.
55:05
And I invite anyone, a lot of people, if you ask them in
55:09
person, what's your write down your regret?
55:12
It's confidential. We'll put it in the pig and burn
55:15
it. They'll say I don't have any
55:16
regrets. I don't know anybody who's lived
55:19
a life without some regrets. Give it some thought.
55:23
You come up with some. And what is that scene online?
55:26
Greece House University. I had the honor of meeting Mr.
55:31
Bryant in person when he was alive, and he was very humble
55:36
guy. And I read somewhere that he
55:39
took fame as a grain of salt. Calvin Trillin wrote about his
55:44
restaurant was the world's best restaurant and all that, and he
55:49
said it's just a grease house. So that's where the name comes
55:53
from, Grease House University, and I thought that was a great
55:58
one. Yeah, it is a.
56:00
Good example, I bought a bottle of sauce from him his last day
56:05
on earth he made change out of his pocket.
56:09
He gave me a pen to promote his BBQ restaurant that had a
56:14
Hereford steer in in a liquid in the handle of the pen.
56:21
So I gave that to my brother-in-law who was passing
56:27
through town, and he said that was the greatest honor that he
56:31
had given. All the awards he'd won from
56:35
computers, and he was in the computer business, and he still
56:40
has that figure. Fortunately, somebody gave me
56:44
one that she had been given, so I have one here.
56:51
OK, it was cool. The all these BBQ guys, they can
56:59
talk forever. This is history we don't get to
57:06
hear too often. BBQ has always been about more
57:09
than just food. How do you see it continuing to
57:12
shape the community and the culture in the years ahead?
57:16
From what I read, it's culturally it's a big deal now.
57:20
Like $4 billion. More than $4 billion will be
57:25
spent on BBQ cookers just this year.
57:28
Oh wow. 74% of Americans will grill at least once.
57:33
Now we're I include grilling as part of BBQ.
57:38
If you're cooking with fire, you're barbecuing and that's
57:42
mostly burgers, hot dogs, sausage, chicken, that kind of
57:47
thing. 74% of Americans will do that.
57:51
So we're talking millions of people who cook some barbecue in
57:56
their own. To me, the grilling is a gateway
57:59
drug to the low and slow method of bigger cuts of meat, brisket
58:06
and even ribs. To do them, it's going to take
58:09
some time. In Memphis, they do the baby
58:12
backs, grill them fast and they're good.
58:17
So the trick is in terms of competition BBQ, how do we
58:23
attract them to that? And that happens to be the
58:26
subject of my next Bull Sheet article.
58:30
And I'm calling it a bold idea. I've been reading about
58:33
artificial intelligence, quote UN quote algorithms and all
58:38
that. And it's we have to get in step
58:41
with the current culture and it's and start attracting
58:44
younger people into the passion and the therapy of BBQ.
58:48
Sure. And we've got a TikTok is a big
58:51
deal. I'm a dinosaur when it comes to
58:54
social media. And so when my grandkids keep me
58:58
up to date, my, our granddaughter was doing 6767, I
59:02
said, what's that? And they said I had to look it
59:06
up. It's meaningless.
59:07
It's a TikTok star who he sings a song in 6-7 cadence.
59:15
So whatever that means. Not a musician, but love you and
59:21
all the kids. One of my grandsons is a student
59:24
teacher now in elementary education.
59:27
He's in his senior year at college KU, and he said his
59:32
kindergarteners are even saying 6-7.
59:35
And they all chuckle. If you do that, it's a whole
59:40
different culture. We had to figure out how to
59:43
attract the younger ones into the passion and the therapy of
59:48
BBQ. We'll see a lot of changes I
59:52
think in the future because as I say, meat prices are going up.
59:57
The Good Food Institute is they're passionate about having
1:00:03
lab produced meat. Or plant based meat, Who knows.
1:00:09
We can only guess what the future is going to be like.
1:00:13
Robotic kitchens now, and I don't think you can.
1:00:18
Robot judges teach a robot the rules.
1:00:21
But there's that wow factor that you can't.
1:00:25
A robot can't know that. That's for me.
1:00:27
Humans, we have judgement and we have the intelligence.
1:00:33
Artificial intelligence is great at scanning everything that's
1:00:37
been that's available online, answering our questions.
1:00:41
It's great. If you have a question, just ask
1:00:44
Siri. You don't have to have it
1:00:47
memorized, but we had to be in step with the today's culture,
1:00:54
and I think once people taste it, once somebody competes and
1:00:59
gets a ribbon, they're hooked. Exactly, that's why they need to
1:01:03
push kids queue and all that other.
1:01:06
You have to hook them in there because if when they're a kid,
1:01:10
when you win something, it's going to hook you when you're a
1:01:13
kid. That's right, that's right,
1:01:15
that's exactly right. And glad you mentioned that
1:01:19
because that I really applaud those who get kids involved and
1:01:23
teach them. And barbecue will do the rest.
1:01:27
So I'm a advocate for just the BBQ community and getting the
1:01:30
word out and just having more things for the community.
1:01:35
Even the community to come out to a competition is just have
1:01:38
stuff for the community to bring them out and not just have a
1:01:42
contest where there's just cooks out there where they'll have
1:01:45
other stuff for the kids and family to come out.
1:01:48
That's important, and I hope more and more contests get that
1:01:53
attitude, make it fun, make it something that attracts people.
1:01:58
And yeah. Everybody loves BBQ, so yeah, it
1:02:04
brings community. Taste it, you're cooked.
1:02:08
All right, that's all the questions I have.
1:02:09
I got a quick game I'm going to play with you and then I get you
1:02:11
out of here. College basketball, they have a
1:02:14
tournament bracket. So I made a tournament bracket
1:02:16
with 16 meats that you cook on the grill.
1:02:19
And I'm going to give you each match up and just tell me which
1:02:21
one that you prefer to eat. All right, let's see who the
1:02:24
winner. First matchup is Lamb versus
1:02:27
Brisket. Brisket.
1:02:30
I love lamb ribs in particular, and the older sheep.
1:02:35
The oldest boy here in Kansas City used to do what he called
1:02:39
lamb breast so good he baptized it with his sauce.
1:02:44
But you could still taste the meat.
1:02:46
But in terms of lamb or brisket, if I had to choose, I'd choose
1:02:51
brisket. All right, next match up is
1:02:53
smoked ham versus sausage. Sausage cause ham, commercial
1:03:01
ham has been slow smoked. Now if you take the raw smoked
1:03:06
uncold smoked ham and BBQ it, that'd be a real.
1:03:12
I would choose that because it's like the pork shoulder and I've
1:03:16
done the ham that way and it's delicious.
1:03:20
OK. Next match up is smoked Turkey
1:03:22
versus beef ribs. Beef ribs are wonderful.
1:03:29
I love beef ribs. I also love smoked Turkey, but
1:03:33
if I had to choose, I'd choose the rib.
1:03:35
Beef ribs. All right, next match up is BBQ
1:03:38
shrimp versus hamburger. I'm biased about it.
1:03:43
I love shrimp, but I would have to say hamburgers.
1:03:46
They're my therapy on Saturday. It's a long story, but I had to
1:03:52
have a hamburger every Saturday. Oh wow.
1:03:54
All right. Next match up is pork chop
1:03:58
versus smoked chicken. Smoked chicken and the pork chop
1:04:04
is anything is it grilled or? Yeah, it's grilled.
1:04:09
Anything on the grill? Yeah.
1:04:11
I just, I have to say smoked chicken because I'm going to get
1:04:15
more BBQ flavor. All right, smoked Bologna versus
1:04:19
pork ribs. You're talking to an Okie Kali,
1:04:25
obviously ribs. But I'm glad you said Bologna
1:04:30
because in Oklahoma we'd say you know what you're talking about.
1:04:33
Because if you said Bologna or something like that, you, you
1:04:37
couldn't be trusted. But we do a lot.
1:04:40
We do a lot of BBQ Bologna there.
1:04:45
You'll find it in restaurants and even in Texas.
1:04:49
The Bologna all. Right next 1 is hot dog versus
1:04:52
pork belly. Well, pork belly for sure.
1:04:59
All right, next match up is steak versus burnt ends.
1:05:05
Well if it's real burn insurance I would choose the burnt
1:05:09
insurance. What I'm seeing in a lot of
1:05:11
restaurants, due to demand, I can't knock the proprietors or
1:05:17
beef cubes that they're calling burnt ends.
1:05:22
Calvin Trillin called them burnt edges and they used to be free
1:05:26
at Arthur Bryant. She'd just reach in rather than
1:05:29
trimming the brisket, trimming the brisket and you could grab a
1:05:33
handful free that that was heaven.
1:05:38
And I'd still order beef and fries there after getting some
1:05:42
free burnt edges. All right, next round, brisket
1:05:46
versus sausage. Well, brisket, because I it's a
1:05:53
more, it's more predictable what that's going to taste like the
1:05:57
sausage, it's going to depend on who made it and who cooked it.
1:06:01
OK. Beef ribs versus hamburger.
1:06:05
I'd say in depends on the day of the week, but the beef ribs over
1:06:12
hamburgers, all right, and chicken versus pork ribs, Pork
1:06:18
ribs, OK. Pork belly versus burns.
1:06:22
Yeah, right. Yeah, OK, Pork.
1:06:27
Belly versus Bernie. Oh, you're getting.
1:06:29
Really. Yeah.
1:06:32
I'd say pork belly and again, it depends on who cooked it.
1:06:41
All right, because I've had so-called pork belly burning.
1:06:46
I didn't like them. Pork belly versus what?
1:06:52
Yeah, final four is brisket versus beef ribs.
1:06:56
Brisket cause yeah, just it's that's a tough choice, but
1:07:03
that's if I had to choose between them and do the brisket.
1:07:08
OK. And pork rib versus pork belly.
1:07:11
Golly, pork belly. Barbecued pork belly is just so
1:07:16
delicious. Yeah, and so are ribs, but those
1:07:22
are difficult choices. Exactly.
1:07:26
All right, final match. Up my move.
1:07:29
Brisket versus pork belly. Brisket versus pork belly.
1:07:34
Let's go over the brisket again. That's a tough choice.
1:07:40
Right, brisket is the winner. All right, Mr. Davis, your
1:07:44
therapy session is over. If you have anybody anything to
1:07:47
promote or any shout outs, you can do that at this time.
1:07:51
OK, the stay tuned for the 40th Anniversary BBQ Society
1:07:56
Cookbook. Kansas City BBQ Society.
1:07:59
It's probably going to be out in 2027.
1:08:01
The way things are going, I can blame it on Paul now that he's
1:08:05
gone. We had a meeting with the
1:08:09
publisher yesterday and reorganized the book and
1:08:12
everything. So I think we'll have it done in
1:08:16
this January. But publication, it's a
1:08:20
publishing is a jungle. It's likely to be 2027 before it
1:08:24
sees print. By then maybe my estate can or
1:08:29
whatever we've made have gone to my grandkids college.
1:08:33
So my share, but divide it three ways and it's a labor of love.
1:08:41
Definitely, definitely. I hope people will enjoy it, I
1:08:44
think they will. We will definitely there's.
1:08:48
Recipes and there's a lot of sidebars that some trivia, some
1:08:52
stories, what's entertaining. Oh yeah, I definitely appreciate
1:08:58
you coming on the show and sharing your time and your
1:09:00
stories and stuff like that on that time.
1:09:02
No problem. And we'll see everybody next
1:09:05
episode. We just wrapped up another
1:09:07
session of BBQ therapy. Remember, stay patient, stay
1:09:11
passionate and keep that fire burning.
1:09:13
Hit subscribe, share the good smoke, and pay the secretary on
1:09:17
your way out. Have a blessed day.