Latest / Unbox Yourself: Coming Out Later in Life with Samantha Fox® / Unboxing Deserving: What Happens When You're Done Being Useful
Transcript
- Samantha Fox: Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. hi and welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. I am very happy to have back my colleague and friend, Christine Vargo. From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, Christine and ⁓ I having a back and forth conversation sparked something in me that thought would be just interesting to do a deeper on. And so basically what happened was were kind of chatting back and forth, and Christine shared a reel with me. And the reel was it was Glenn and and Abby. Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory? sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. And the reel was basically Glenn sharing with Abby standing next to her that she ⁓ has been having a really tough two years. She's been really struggling, and that Abby has just ⁓ such an incredible cheerleader. And that she has helped her through this two years. I mean, I don't know that she's out of it, but she's just been there for her throughout the two years, really cheerleading her. you know, Glennon just had all of these things to say about Abby in general, just as a person and being so supportive, amazing for their kids, and you know, a lot of love to Abby. and was a little bit teary ⁓ in real. but she really say much. so that was basically the context of the real was just like, ⁓ my God, I have the most amazing person. I've been going through such a tough time for a number of years, and this person has been there to cheerlead me. ⁓ and so that was the And I think you had sent me ⁓ a text afterwards saying something like, it something like Christine Vargo, LCSW: You Samantha Fox: I thought I had this. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: And know that it's something that I deserve. I think that was the context of it. So, which is, know, all beautiful, like so, all all beautiful stuff. ⁓ And I some ⁓ interesting reaction to the that you sent, mainly initially because landed on me in a way where like Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Samantha Fox: I I just felt like wow, I don't like I can't locate that feeling in myself anywhere. That was the initial feeling that I had was like, wow, like I don't ever think that. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. you don't ever think you're deserving of that kind of relationship Samantha Fox: like th that thought does not ever it's never crossed mind. Let's say that. That thought has never crossed my mind. and so then I was like, ⁓ this is so interesting. Like, what is it that is the it feels like Chinese? ⁓ It's it's and and is that that feels so really foreign about this? Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Hmm. Samantha Fox: And then I was thinking a little bit more about just the word deserve. And I was kind of trying to unpack that a little bit and think like is something, like I do have like a some kind of a slight allergic reaction to the word. ⁓ Although do, feel that is a word, at least for me, that I use in certain ⁓ circumstances. Like I kind of think. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: We all deserve to treat each other with kindness and respect. there's no allergy whatsoever. I'm just like, yep, we deserve that. Like we as humans deserve to treat one another that way and to also receive that back. Right. ⁓ but then when comes to I started thinking about in terms of a relationship. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right. Yeah. Yep. Samantha Fox: And it's somehow that word, it wants to get knocked out of the sentence by other words, like was trying I was really trying to think this through. So, so I was thinking even now on the car ride, I was coming back from acupuncture, coming to meet you, and I was thinking, okay, you know, I deserve, I was trying practicing, I deserve. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah Samantha Fox: To meet a woman. I deserve a woman in a relationship who has done her work, ⁓ who can meet me where I am. deserve a woman who you is interested in being like sensually connected, and sexually connected, right? And wants to have fun with that. So I was like playing with like saying these things to myself and using the word deserve, and I was like, Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Samantha Fox: I don't know. I ⁓ I would say I both those things. And order be a relationship with somebody, I feel like need, like I need, if I'm gonna be in a relationship, I needed to be with someone who has done their work and who is able to communicate. ⁓ That's actually a need. It's not just a want. It's also a need. If I'm gonna be in a relationship, that need kicks in. But when I try to sub that out and bring the word, and I deserve that something happens for me ⁓ that makes it feel, I don't know, like foreign. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: so, ⁓ so I that just made me very curious, this idea. And I've certainly said to clients, you know, clients that I have that are divorced, that have been dating for a while, that are dating people that are really not aligned with where they are in life. And I've said, like you deserve someone who's on your level. Like, know, who's kind of where you are in life. Like you deserve to have a partner who can. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: kind of mirror and match that. So it's not like don't ever use the word. It somehow when it comes to ⁓ specific relational stuff, like a partner ⁓ who would be with me two years of I mean, I'm gonna say I've been through like two and a half difficult years. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: But like having somebody that would be there with me through that, like I deserve that. I can't find that. Like I don't have that. Christine Vargo, LCSW: ⁓ that's interesting. Because I think, you know, I guess for greater context, I have another, there's a ⁓ mentor I was working with years ago. And Abby and Glennon kind of first came on the scene, ⁓ I going through ⁓ kind another reckoning, another broken heart. And her reflection to me was like, you deserve an Abby. And so from the context of like, you know, how Abby and Glenn and, you know, and I think we've mentioned in our last episode that like, you know, they're kind of the exception to the role of like somebody who's coming out late in life and then finding their person and then it. So I think for me, when I, when I sent it and it's interesting because for me, it's like the felt sense of deserving when we're born with the need and deserving of love and belonging. And when we don't get that need met, where we develop our patterns or creative adjustments. And kind of ultimately what happens. And I think for me, it's like, I know I want to be in a relationship similarly, what you're talking about, with somebody who has done their work, who is not afraid show up, who knows what they want, who is in it for the hard. moments doesn't back down even when it does get hard. And I think that's what I see when I, you know, in witnessing that one clip with Abby and Glennon, it's like Glennon has gone through like, you know, more of her story, like eating disorder and like Abby's gone through her own grief around things. And I, what I understand, I don't know them at all, but what we see outside when they show us what they show us of their relationship two people who are willing to witness each other grow. And that's what I feel like I'm saying when I say I'm deserving of that. I think it's interesting because like there's a attachment dynamics I get ⁓ involved in. So deserving can equal or can be synonymous with self-worth. And so if you've grown up in ⁓ and your attachment style is anxious or disorganized. and you don't have a secure, like the secure attachment is going to be somebody who like knows that they are of everything they want. And they're solid in that. somebody who's more anxiously attached will not be able to say that. Samantha Fox: What about someone who's more avoidant? Christine Vargo, LCSW: I don't think somebody who's avoidant would be able to say it as well because they would also, know, their nervous system is going to kick in when things too overwhelming. And so it's like, or maybe language can be, I'm deserving of and autonomy. And so you can use it that way. I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean in pretty much all my relationships, been more avoidant one except for one relationship where that person was more avoidant than me and I became the pursuer and like the, you know, kind of like I want more. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. same. Samantha Fox: Yeah, okay. so I feel very strongly about deserving space and autonomy. ⁓ I don't have any problem saying that. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. And I think, I mean, I agree. think that that's maybe it's, it's, I want space and autonomy. I deserve space and autonomy as like a human being. And this is what I want. If you don't have that or if somebody like if what activates your avoidance is somebody's more anxious, then can kind of get into a conflict, I think around, well, I want to ask for space. I want to ask for, know, and then it's like if I'm asking for space and they're too ⁓ clingy, too Samantha Fox: Anxious. Yes. Christine Vargo, LCSW: then it becomes a question or a place to be curious about like, okay, what's a little alignment? What's like, what's being triggered? What's getting activated between these two nervous systems? Can we work together to try to figure it out? Are we going to throw in the towel because it feels too hard or I don't want to do the work in either direction, frankly, because if you're anxiously attached and you have somebody who's avoiding, who's pulling away, then it becomes a decision about like, Am I deserving of more? And then the is yes, I want more, then the person who's avoidant is going to... also probably align with that and say, yeah, you're deserving of. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. So I'm just looking up the definition of the word deserving. just because I think it's ⁓ and it's yeah, I mean it's interesting because Christine Vargo, LCSW: ⁓ yeah. helpful. Samantha Fox: I mean, I gr I agree with what you're saying and I've definitely relationships where when have gotten heated, I have asked for some space that we could talk about it when I'm not activated, because ⁓ I'm activated, other person's activated. To me, that's just pointless. Like why ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, agreed. Samantha Fox: Why try? Let's take some space. Like, I love you, I care about you. We're both activated. I'd like to, you know, come back to this when we've cooled down a little bit. And I've had people who have a hard time with that and get very anxious at that idea. What does this mean? What do you mean? Take space, where are you going? What's happening? Which is for me like very suffocating. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right. Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: And so so anyway, so I understand that part, but but I just wanna I just wanna ⁓ that the the says of ⁓ of the definitions of deserving is ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Right. Like, worthiness. Yeah. Samantha Fox: yeah. Worthiness, right. then another one is of one's ⁓ actions, or situation, qualified for or claiming have a reward. And then there's also like deserving of punishment, right? Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm Samantha Fox: so, d on your whether you're gonna either rewarded or punished. You're deserving of punishment, you're deserving of me pulling away, you're you know, or you're not deserving of ⁓ of this reward, let's say. Christine Vargo, LCSW: So there's like the condition, like, I guess it's like, you can also make the difference between like conditional love and unconditional love. So. Samantha Fox: Yeah, and maybe that's yeah, maybe that's maybe that's the thing that because like part of me wants to say, you know, I mean Abby and Glenn and you know, they have their relationship. They're eight years in, they're who who knows? Like who knows? Hopefully they'll make it if that makes the two of them really happy. ⁓ and they both have you know, a lot of their own history around difficult addictions ⁓ and ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Samantha Fox: struggles and whatnot, right? So, you know, we don't know what will happen long term, but there's a part of me that wants to say, like, with Glenn's struggles, you know, let's say they continue for like another six years. So struggles for two years, but she has like six more years going until she gets to some place. Like what is in it for Abby ⁓ for eight years ⁓ to cheerleading? Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm. Right. Well, it's certain. Right. And we could, know, we could if Abby was in the room with us, it would be like, well, how does it serve you to be this cheerleader for your wife? Right. And, you know, I imagine some of that answer if she's she comes across as like intuitive enough to know that like it makes her useful. And so I think it's not without. You know, like whatever she's she's going to do in whatever arena, whatever any of us do in any arena is in the service of us, whether we define it as positive or negative. So when we are in this place of, giving to our partner. You can say you deserve or like, to give you all of these things because you're deserving of somebody who wants to give you all of these things. and There's a part of me that wants to feel useful. And that's why I'm doing it. I don't think, yeah, yeah. That's what you're getting out of it. Samantha Fox: That's what you're getting. That's what you're getting. And and yeah. And so would it then be like that's what I deserve? I deserve to feel useful and and I'm getting that through this relationship. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Well, I think I wouldn't, interesting, because I don't think I would say I deserve to feel useful. I say, like the outcome me giving is that feel useful. And maybe that's of my conditioning. Maybe that's part of my attachment. Maybe that's part of like my own ego. Like, you know, it's maybe you've heard like we genuinely give unless we can genuinely receive. And so a lot of people struggle with receiving they don't feel deserving. And that's where the like the anxious attachment or disorganized attachment can come in. Right. It's like if I'm if I'm unworthy or if I'm like if my worthiness like an issue for me, then I'm going to. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: either go, I'm going to push away or I'm going to go against, I'm going to shut down. because it's rooted in shame. Yeah. So it's just, I think it's interesting to the question around deserving because if I am deserved, if I'm born with the need for love and belonging and to feel worthy and over time my attachment style is like, you Samantha Fox: Right. Christine Vargo, LCSW: is developed between zero and two and then solidified between zero and eight, then core wounds or the limiting beliefs that develop throughout whatever my experience is can lead me to feeling like I'm unworthy. Then in adult relationships, how does that manifest? does it, know, for example, if there's like, if grew up and my parents were like, didn't love me unconditionally, and I had to perform, then I have to perform in my adult relationships on some level, and I have to be perfect in some ways. And so... Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Christine Vargo, LCSW: then I really start to lean into like, well, if I'm not perfect and I'm not performing, then I'm not deserving. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Do you feel like the, you get us of like, you can say that to a client, like. you're deserving of exactly what you want or the kind of you want in any relationship. Is that something that's hard for you to acknowledge for yourself or you don't get the felt sense of deservingness? because of your avoidance. Samantha Fox: Yeah, I mean it's I feel like I deserve love in the world and connection and belonging. and I felt very I felt a lot you know, my parents did like the best unconditional love that they could, my mom did better than my dad. you know, but In the end, in his later years, he broke through know, the the conditioned and and was very loving ⁓ before he passed away. but you know, it's not that I don't feel like I am not deserving of love or connection, but I know. I guess there it's something about like the conditional piece for me I was having this same conversation about this same reel with a friend, and I had showed her the reel, and she said, I mean, her first comment was, What you know, ⁓ what's this for Abby? what's Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm. Samantha Fox: Happy getting for two years of being a cheerleader. And this was somebody who been, married for decades, came out in their 50s, literally sacrificed like decades of her life for other people. so she's kind of in this place where she's just I don't want to like Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: I don't really want to do that for another person. And I don't expect someone to do that for me either. Like I want us to be able to meet each other, but I want to have autonomy. you know, I want to be able to have my space and also share space. But like I was cheerleader for so years for so many people ⁓ and ⁓ and lost myself in that, know. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: like yes, I might have been very useful, but know, I lost so many years of my ⁓ own and you know, f ⁓ filling out because I was showing up for these people for so many decades, for my kids, for my husband, whatever. Like this is coming from this person. So I think for me it's it's more in the conditional. I think the word deserving, there's something, it's like ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Samantha Fox: I don't know, it's like if you're and it's so weird because in some places I'm okay with it, you know. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah, it's interesting. Samantha Fox: But it's but it's it's like even if we take it and we switch the word to worthy of, like I'm worthy of somebody who meets me where I am, but I have the same reaction to the word worthy of, you know, something about it, Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Samantha Fox: I can say I I want that and ⁓ I definitely need that. I think that there have been so many relationships that felt very unequal me, where I like I was giving and giving and giving and giving and helping and showing and doing. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Samantha Fox: with people who were not able to show up for me that way over and over, because they were bad people, but because they just hadn't done their work. I on one hand, Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: there's like there's some line of thought that's like, well, if I'm gonna have another partner, I deserve it to be somebody who could show up in that way. But even ⁓ then the word is just ⁓ standing a little you know, it's like standing at attention. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm hmm. Yeah. Does it feel like entitlement to you? Yeah. Samantha Fox: Kind of. It leans a little bit into like, like I'm entitled to that. And it's like, you know, look, if the universe wants to bring this person into my path, I'm going to be fucking psyched. You know, like, that would be awesome if that happens. But I don't know what's on my I don't know what I'm going to encounter. And I'm open to what I'm going to encounter. but History has shown me that this is not easy to find. It's not easy to find somebody who wants to meet you where you are. And where you are is having skills around communication, having done a lot of work. There's no perfection. I mean, I'm flawed for sure. You know, as a human, I also get reactive and activated, but I can at least say that and say, Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right. Samantha Fox: Let's do a timeout and come back to this. And you know, I have not found that with people. There's an avoidance, they don't want to come back to it, or they're so anxious they can't take the space. And I'm actually exhausted from all of that. ⁓ so yeah, think there is some like ⁓ some element some kind of like, well, I've done all the work and therefore I'm entitled to and deserve this person, but it's like Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: I don't know, I guess they're also that also leads me into this like expectation arena where I then feel like I have some expectation that somebody is gonna show up in that way, which I don't I do have an allergy to expectation. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Hmm, yeah. Yeah, I get that. Same. I think it's like in order for you to like dial in the people that you're meant to have in your life, you know, I used to always say, or my ex and I used to always say, like, we couldn't have met a day sooner than we did. We were vibrating at the exact moment that we needed to meet and we had our lived experience together and we had a great time. And so the learning and the lesson in that is is so much more valuable than I think anything else. It's like, this is what I was meant to learn. And so, I think maybe that's the deserving piece is like, I'm meant to learn these things on this path with these people that I dial in and when I've them and I know that I haven't met everyone that I'm going to meet in my lifetime because I'm still living and there's still people outside. I it's interesting because as you were talking, was remembering there's been moments where it's been really hard of like... trying to relate it back to like Abby and Glennon and Abby, I think the other thing in the context of that reel is like it was Abby's birthday. So Glennon was like giving her accolades and right. Samantha Fox: Accolades. Yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Had it been just another day of them having a different conversation and it wasn't necessarily Abby's birthday and she wasn't like trying to highlight what Abby means to her, maybe it would have come across differently. So I wanna offer that or acknowledge that. Or, and if there was another side of that conversation where Abby was doing the same towards Glennon, then maybe that would feel more in alignment with what I'm trying to say when I say, I know I... I felt like I had this and I know I want a relationship that's reciprocal. I want a relationship that's equal, where I don't feel like I'm giving too much. when I need space, I can take it. When she needs space, she can take it. And we're not in this place of like disorganized. Samantha Fox: Attachment. Right. that is like so valid and I'm totally with you the whole time because the word deserving didn't come in. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Attachment. Fair. Yeah. Samantha Fox: This is what you want. Like this is what you want. And and also maybe this is what you need. know, if if you're going to commit to your to another person and enter into another relationship, this is what you want. And some of these things you would need, or you you or you would just really want. Either way. ⁓ and it's like it's the part where it's like, I'm deserving of that Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: That's the piece that I have I I you know and again it's it's it might be it might be more connected to expectation than than anything else, even more than entitlement, because I really have a hard time with expectation. I think expectation is valid when you Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: A relationship, and you have put your needs and wants out there, and people have said, I can meet these needs and wants. And then that is a clear, like, okay, now I know that that's like a valid expectation for me. but but just a more broad general statement of like I'm ⁓ of person ⁓ when haven't even met that person and I don't. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right. Yeah. Samantha Fox: I don't even know if that person is out there. don't know. It's like I don't you know, some people might say, Well, that's manifesting. Like you're manif to say you're deserving of that is you know, you're manifesting it. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Maybe that's the pieces. you're in the other position of like, don't even know if this person is out there, is the energy that like, is there an openness to that energy or is it like, I'm just, ⁓ not gonna have the expectation that I'm gonna meet the person that I'm who's gonna be my life for the remainder of my life. I'm just gonna continue to meet. that's interesting because it's, If you're living from a place of wanting to manifest divine right relationship, then the I think the inner knowing is there. It's kind of like, I can name what I want for my business and I can have an idea and a path and a map to get there and I can trust and believe, yep, like I will always have parking. I have really good parking karma, right? And so if I live in the energy of parking karma, then... Samantha Fox: Yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: I know that the person that I'm meant to be with or want to be out there, want to be with is out there. I just don't know where she, I don't know where she is. I don't know what her face looks like. I don't know what her name is, but she's out there. So trusting and believing in that. And then maybe that's the piece or that's how I'm design, I'm using deserving in that context of like, yep. Like I. I know I'm living abundantly. I know I am an abundant human being. know that there's, I would rather live from an abundant mindset than one of fear and lack and anxiety. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Yeah. and is there a space of like open to person out there that's gonna meet me where I am, and that's gonna be an amazing connection whenever we shall and I don't know when gonna So until that happens six months or five from now. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right. Samantha Fox: You know, I'm not gonna live in any anxiety ⁓ lack, but I'm gonna live in a space of just giving all that could want from that person and need. I'm gonna live a space where ⁓ I'm doing that myself and I'm also like calling on my community to feed ⁓ me and whatever practices are to feed me. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: because you know, because I don't know when this person that ⁓ ⁓ know that there is this person out there, but I have no idea when I'm gonna bump into them. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Right, yes, exactly. And I think that's the important point is, and all of this is like, if you're deserving, like to go back to it, it's like, I'm deserving of the kind of love that I wanna offer somebody, but I'm also gonna do all the work that I can, all the things that you just named to give that to myself. And the more I do that, the more grounded I am in myself, the more I can stay with myself in relationship. And so... Samantha Fox: Yes. Christine Vargo, LCSW: If I'm in the practice already of knowing what I'm deserving of and I know if I meet somebody, I lean more into discernment when I meet people because then it's like, okay, like I'm going to be more vigilant, not hypervigilant, but vigilant about what they're showing me, how they're showing up, what they're saying, how they're behaving, all of these things and how your body is responding. Yes, 100%. Yes. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Yes. Your body is responding. Yeah. that's where I think at least for me, ⁓ I ignored some of those signs, because I'm guessing for you too, you know, we're healers we're therapists and we work with people, we have so much empathy. ⁓ Christine Vargo, LCSW: so much. Samantha Fox: so much empathy and so like you know somebody can be disorganized and bordering abusive and I really like how they got be that way and why they are that way and have so much empathy compassion whatever the backlash is of that that it's actually having on Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: my myself, I can put that to the side while I'm being very compassionate and empathic to their trauma. know, and and at the end of the day, that that actually doesn't really serve me. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Right. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. Or it serves you to be useful. Samantha Fox: Not anymore. I am done. I am done with being useful. Like I don't I seriously don't want to be useful. I want to be loving and I want to be kind and I want to be generous and I want to be present. I don't want to be useful anymore. I have I have done usefulness for 25 years. Christine Vargo, LCSW: exactly. Same. ⁓ that nodding, yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's a huge lesson. I was so useful and I was getting so much out of it. So when I wasn't useful, I had to really mourn and grieve. all the things about that. And it's so stealth. It's so stealth because it's so deep. It's so conditioned. It's like, because we're taught that like, you know, you're such a, like to your episode the other day when you were talking about like the good woman, he was like, she's such a good woman, right? She does all these things for everyone else. ⁓ And it's a. Samantha Fox: Program. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Christine Vargo, LCSW: deeply, deeply conditioned thing to unpack. And so I always, I always talk to my clients about like, you're, literally shallowing out decades of grooved, deep conditioning when you're doing this work. So it's like, it's a practice. It's not, I'm going to stop doing this or I'm going to stop, I'm going to stop this being useful. You first, you have to acknowledge that you're being useful and it's, it's useful for you to like, over give. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: And if you're not doing that, you're not even that awareness. Like I was so burned out. I wasn't even tapped into what was happening for me. then it just builds in builds in like reactivity. It builds in not being able show up those same ways that you want to or the ways that you initially wanted to when you first met. ⁓ so I think time, that's where things start to devolve in relationships with People, you know, happens with my clients all the time of like, you know, we were on the same page. were on the same team. And then slowly over time, that's when people start to separate and they go in their corners and then they can't see past their face. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Samantha Fox: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you entertaining my ⁓ around the word deserving ⁓ I think it's brought up some interesting topics. but I really love how ⁓ when goes into worthiness ⁓ and how worthiness very melts into for me like martyrdom ⁓ and misogyny. Christine Vargo, LCSW: You Mm-hmm. Samantha Fox: in terms of like what what women's roles ⁓ and how women ⁓ worthy and useful, that I think that there might be something, yeah, might be something about it the deserving is tied to like a worthiness, I think I have an allergy to worthiness ⁓ because of tied to what it means for women to be worthy. And I'm just like Christine Vargo, LCSW: No. Mmm. Samantha Fox: Fuck that. You know? I'm happy to show up as a as a parent and give my kids everything I can and show up as a partner, but like I am not adhering to any of the scripts of a good woman anymore. You know what I mean? Like I I don't want I I am not her. I am not gonna be useful for somebody else's good, you know? ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, same. Yeah, and we could talk about the limerence angle showing like limerence and anxious attachment, that's like the fantasy of finally being chosen. Right. And, you know, if this person, this unattainable person chooses me, then I must be worth something and therefore deserving or like Samantha Fox: Yes. Yes. Yes. Christine Vargo, LCSW: This self abandonment piece is like. People who grow up feeling undeserving don't typically seek out relationships that reinforce their worthiness. Samantha Fox: Yep. Christine Vargo, LCSW: And so they seek out relationships that confirm what their body already knows, what's already familiar. So if I am growing up in the belief that I'm not worthy of unconditional love and like the love is coming at me these conditional ways or I have to be performing or, you know, like I've said before, but like, it's like, how do I find a partner who's going to give me unconditional and How can I sit with that and sit with the discomfort of that calm. And, know, I think that's a super interesting beast because, you know, we often, think, don't stress enough, or at least I try to stress all the time with my clients is like, sitting with the discomfort of calm is part of the practice of like, telling your nervous system, showing your nervous system, hey, I can have this experience of being in a relationship that doesn't have, you know, the chaotic energy that even was, the intensity that felt like intimacy in the beginning. that was a huge lesson for me is trying to understand like what that was for myself of like, why do I want it to be this passionate thing all the time? And Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Christine Vargo, LCSW: I really had to do a lot of like searching about like, what's that about for me? It's like my nervous system is trying to like. Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Get what it knows. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Yes. Yeah. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Super interesting. Samantha Fox: Yes, always interesting. Thank you for entertaining my curiosities here. ⁓ yeah, can you tell people just where to find you? Christine Vargo, LCSW: You're welcome. Thank you. Yes, you can find me at Christine Vargo psychotherapy on Instagram or the real poetic paradox on Instagram also. One is my therapy page. The other one's my coaching page, although I post across both of them the same things or tick tock the real poetic paradox or my website is also the real poetic paradox. Samantha Fox: Awesome. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yes, and I'm actually filling three groups, ⁓ bimonthly groups. One in the afternoon on Thursdays, another one's in the afternoon on Tuesdays, and then I have an evening group happening on Thursdays, all specifically queer women who are struggling with limerence, self-abandonment, and anxious avoiding attachment. Samantha Fox: Amazing. Important work. Thank you so much. Christine Vargo, LCSW: Yeah. Yes. Yes, yes. Thank you. Samantha Fox: All right, Christine. Talk to you soon. I'm sure we'll hop on for another one. Christine Vargo, LCSW: thank you.