Latest / Curious Cat - where science & supernatural collide / Liminal Astrology (and other tangents) with Sam the Sky Guy

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Liminal Astrology (and other tangents) with Sam the Sky Guy · Curious Cat - where science & supernatural collide

0:34
SPEAKER_01: We're laughing already.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't even know how to introduce you.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: This is my friend Sam, the Sky Guy.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: And you heard him in our AI season.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: He did the birth charts for me and Jesse, and it was so intriguing.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: But we've only gotten to know him better through the years.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just so glad we were already catching up pre-recording about summer.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: And we started slipping into our own liminal spaces about words.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like you read the sky, yes, but you there's so much more to you than that.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: So shut up, Jen.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Introduce yourself.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: Keep talking, keep talking.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, more words, more liminality.
1:22
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I go by Sam, Sky Guy.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm on Substack, and you probably know a little bit about me from like Jen said, Jen and Jesse's uh podcast, Curious Cat, and uh some follow-ups with that.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: I've also been on the Rachel White podcast, uh Totem Readings, um, did my own podcast, which I call in retrospect the Mooncast.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: So, yes, astrology is one of my things, correct?
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it sure is.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like you are you there's a lot of places.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I shouldn't like project, but it seems like when you get into something, you get curious about something, you kind of dive in and uh kind of all in.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: And then if we need a movie review, it's of course Gen Sam.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: You're referring to what we were doing over the summer, um, the uh the sorting events.
2:14
SPEAKER_03: I love those.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Jesse, aka Billy Purgatory and I were doing these uh sorting events based based on Rachel White's book at that.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: The business of Wu.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: Business of Wu promoting it.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that was fun to kind of just play with this idea of let's take our magical archetypes and see who's who in our cast of characters here.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I loved when you guys would go off the rails a bit with the guests too, because it just they were such interesting, fun conversations.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, you met um my old crow friend.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's not old, but Monique Pliakis and her husband, they came on for the dual sorting um one time.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: What a superb couple, what a superb pair of human beings, really.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: So shout out to Monique as well.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: I did one of her um hypnotherapy sessions, and it was, in a word, profound.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: Highly recommended.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Um goosebumps all over my body.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Buckle, buckle your seat belts because it's the real deal.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: It is.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And on top of it, what I love about what she's doing.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: So I'll put links to her practice in the show notes, is she doesn't just take your money and run.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: She's like, you need to see if you can even go under with my voice.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And so she will send you little samples and you have to see if it's your vibe.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: She's like, I'm not for everybody.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, chocolate isn't for everybody.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm not for everybody.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And I love the transparency of it.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's not this like money grab for her, it's a calling.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: And it is so empowering.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: And she is always available too after the fact to go.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Do you have questions, follow-up questions?
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Do you need anything else from me?
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to do some reading to give you more clarity?
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, she is she's something special.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: And and she and her husband are amazing parents as well.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Like they're really conscientious about everything, the way that they're like raising them up.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: It's um, they're just such an inspiration.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're wonderful people.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: So shout out to them and uh definitely check out Monique's work.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: She's on Substack as well.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she is.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so she does her offerings there, and she, I think she has two accounts.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: Um they have their uh home record podcast account and then Monique Innerstandings.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Inner standings, yeah, which is again check all these folks out, they're great.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to tell us the details, but what what was the session?
4:45
SPEAKER_01: I did like with her, just to full transparency, I did a um uh like kind of healing your inner child, and it ended up being a past life thing for me because she kept saying, Go back to the origin of your first trauma.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: And we went so far back that it went the lifetime before this one.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, whoops, it's like you went too far on the expressway.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: You're like going down and then you pass your exit, and you're like, wow, I'm in another state.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: I was.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: I was even another gender.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: I was just like this really tall miner in tunnels below Mount Shasta, like yeah, uh mining for copper.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: So what was the what what which one did you do?
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Did you do the dragon one or meet your dragon?
5:33
SPEAKER_02: So so what I did was what she calls into the void.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to go in and do something that was ambiguous.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, I, as you know, have been reading the sky and looking at my own future and um seeing and feeling and other things, experiencing other things about what was coming, uh, starting with my solar return.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: So I had a fix on what was coming, I thought, and and has been correct so far.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: And I knew the kind of approach I had to take for this for this solar year.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: And so that was the perfect like next step into okay, I need to do this because that's the next step.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: So it's like I almost felt that, well, not almost, I actually felt that I had to meet Monique for that reason.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that opened up this experience that again, in a word profound.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: And I really would love to talk about it in detail, though the end, the point of the ending was that you're not supposed to.
6:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that to be like cool or facetious.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: It was on in no uncertain terms.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: It was like, this is for you.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: And if you just blurt it out, you're gonna kill the spirit of the thing.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes when people cast magic, they feel like the most important step is to forget that they cast the magic, put the intention out there because you're supposed to act as though it's already in play, it's already happened, it's already been given to you.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: So you're supposed to sort of forget it and um set it and forget it.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Or in Rachel White's words on socials, post and ghost.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is some people's um feeling about magic.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know how I feel about that.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: I feel like uh the most deep, I think it's very personal to each person.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: But when you are received, you receive a message in a sacred space like that, then that is important to listen to them because they're telling you, please, we want you to stay within the lines because we want this to be what happens next.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, so when I was in the salt cave, um, I guess it was this spring with my neighbor Terry.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: She dragged me to a thing in the salt caves.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: And we had experiences, and I specifically asked my guides, is it okay to talk about that?
8:01
SPEAKER_01: And they were like, don't get into the specifics of other people's um kind of journey if it's like intimate.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, you can talk about your own thing that happened.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, it's just part of it because there's actually something there for somebody else to get from it, or maybe to broaden themselves and maybe give something like that a try.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like your coy language, which isn't being coy, but being respectful of your um journey and what happened to you during that session, it actually is the best kind of teaser too for anybody that's kind of uninterested and feels like there's something else that they want to do that they might need or they're seeking.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the thing.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, not everyone is supposed to have a public mission or have a public mission all the time.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you have to know yourself if you're gonna do magic or anything like this.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: And you need to be like, I think, a grounded, stable person before you approach this stuff and have something to go back to, some kind of stable foundation practice, a way of self-care, of grounding and kind of reintegrating because uh a heavy download which you can experience doing this stuff can take a very long time and a lot of energy and wherewithal to digest.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: And so it's not necessarily that you know it's scary.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just that it could be intense.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: And again, the information as such doesn't necessarily translate into this human, rational, sort of embodied place of then communicating it with words.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's not information as such, it's not data per se.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: It's literally an experience that cannot be put into words in a very real sense.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: So there's so many different angles with which to view this, and again, it's not being coy, but yeah, um, Monique is a great gentle guide.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: She will be very careful and respectful with you.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: It's completely voluntary what happens to you.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I felt I just implicitly trust her.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: So and it it she's definitely got the X factor.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: I've said this before, whatever it is that allows her to do this, and it goes, I think, beyond technique and training, although those are necessary, but she has the X factor that makes it happen.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I agree.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing, she has she comes with like um, she's a multidimensional healer because she also has other things in her back pocket.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: So if she sees that there's um maybe something that needs healed, she also can um, you know, sometimes her guides are like, maybe it's Reiki, maybe it's this, maybe it's that.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: And they can nudge her and she has the toolbox to kind of help.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: And then, um, but then she like, you know, I think you have to be pretty damn humble to say, I'm not for everybody.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm not taking your money till you give me a try.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's exactly the kind of person that you want to go to for something like this.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So I know it's just it's just a blazing on our friend Monique.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're fans.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean we're fans.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're fans, we're fans of our life.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: She she kind of really um, I don't know, I think she shines in the liminal space.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: She she and I bonded the very first season of my podcast.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: She wrote me this really heartfelt note after listening to, I think it was me and my friend Karen Rontowski.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh she and she was like, I just feel like we're connected.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: And the minute I read her words, I'm like, where have you been?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: I've been waiting for you to show up in my life.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And we have been bosom friends ever since then.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And she really we our relationship is so in the liminal space.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I will be drinking coffee, I will see two crows, they interact in a certain way.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I am supposed to reach out to Monique and see if she's okay.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, school started and the pressure's on, or whatever the thing is.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: And she'll do the same thing with me.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: She's like, she'll leave me an audio message and just say, Oh my God, girl, you know, whatever.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: So um I just feel so blessed.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like I could wrap it up, mothball this baby, and I've gotten the icing on the cake of this podcast, just meeting her.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: So everything else is just icing.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: It's it's exciting, this aspect um of the virtual world of meeting the right people at the right time.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of enabling that connection.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: So I think, I mean, for your listeners or anyone curious, the best use of this platform in this space is making those connections.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: Like if you are genuine and if you are genuinely engaging with the genuine people, um, the connections will happen.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to like force it, you don't have to try super hard.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I agree.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: All the all the whatever, the other stuff.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting to me because today I've had a little bit of a journey just today of this having this thing that I've been thinking about astrology.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I think because you were coming on today, uh, the Pleiades, the Seven Sisters, and I wanted to talk to you about them.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: But I was thinking about how the first magic I really connected with was astrology, even though it's still a language that I'm not even at the 101 level of understanding it, but I'm intrigued by it.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: What I love about astrology is because it's not believe and believe harder, which is a lot of the dogma that you get from Western culture when you're talking about magic.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like somehow, if you believe and believe harder, it's going to be more successful.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: If it wasn't a success, it's because you weren't successful at executing it.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Where astrology is literally, let's take the moment in time.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: This is when you were born.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: This is where all the different the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars were in that moment, where you were and when you were born.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And then let's look at right now, where they are now and what challenges that might bring up, what um super, like if you play Mario Kart, the golden star where you're just like golden and impervious to everything, where those things could be.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not believe and believe harder.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: It's like read, read the stars, read the planets, read the celestial bodies, and learn the patterns that have always been there.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I find that so welcoming and well, I like that.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: And you know, believing harder doesn't work, it just doesn't.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: It's like an overcompensation for something.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: So it's actually, I like things that are impersonal.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: In other words, so so let's look of let's look at astrology as a clock.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: So it's a celestial clock.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: It's you know, sun o'clock somewhere, sometime, it's conjunction o'clock, which is uh let's say sun, moon conjunction, that's a new moon o'clock.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: There's a full moon o'clock, and these things are all different positions, and depending on the character of these bodies, their interaction, the time, the house they fall into, the sign, there's ideas about what this means.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: All right.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: So you can just look at that and read it.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: And if you're wrong, well, guess what?
15:34
SPEAKER_02: You're wrong.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of astrologers have been wrong, including recently.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: And and so I always needed to take it a step further.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: And you can do astrology like I described, just a bunch of rules and ideas, a language, what things mean, what should mean, and how to predict based on that, because astrology was largely used to predict.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: I always needed to take it a step farther, or further, actually.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm being the grammarian now.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Farther, it is pretty far.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: Farther is distance, further is abstract, right?
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, I I always like this stuff, it hit me and it just lit my imagination on fire.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't help but like live in this world.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it just seemed alive to me in a way that it just bothered me that I had to find the living experience of what this is.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: So that's what always attracted me.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: And there's space in there for that.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: There's planetary magic.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: You can work with the so-called gods, I call them celestials, that are represented by these spheres in the sky, um, including the sun, which is not, you know, it's not a planet.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: We circle the sun.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: It circles, you know.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's it you can you can take it literally as an ancient model, as a clock, as a pattern recognition system, as like a correlation indicator, or you can take it as a mystical path.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: That that door is there as well.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: So, what's magic like working with celestial bodies to do magic?
17:06
SPEAKER_01: What is that like?
17:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, there is a structure to it.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not saying that it's whatever you want it to be.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: It seems like it would be kind of it's not something probably you can do broad stroke rules on either, because isn't it inherently based on each of us as like our birth charts?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't that be important to how we do magic with something like a celestial body?
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, yes and no.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: So there's grimoirs like the Picatrix.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's an Arab grimoire, medieval Arab grimoire of astrological magic.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's got recipe and timing and all the stuff about when to do what and how to make talismans and amulets and do spells and so forth with specific planets.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Back then, this stuff wasn't distinct from science.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: It was science, it was how the world works.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, you just had to be careful to phrase things correctly, so then you didn't like insult the prevailing monotheism.
18:09
SPEAKER_03: So that makes sense.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: But nonetheless, these things existed within later in history within monotheisms like Islam and then later medieval Christianity, um, and so forth.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: So there's like recipes you can follow, and that's astrological magic.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: And then you can take into consideration, if you want to work directly with a planet, your own makeup, like you say, you know.
18:35
SPEAKER_02: So who's my chart ruler?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: Is it Mars?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: Is it Mercury?
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Is it Saturn?
18:40
SPEAKER_02: And that might make a difference in how you approach these things.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, also, if you have a stelium, if you have more than, let's say, three or more planets or points in a particular sign, that sign ruler becomes very strong, also, or that particular sign itself becomes song strong.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: If you have a sovereign planet in a sign, that planet, so if Mercury's and Gemini in your birth chart, or if Saturn's and Aquarius, right, those planets become extra strong because they're in their um home domain.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: Right.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: So there's all these considerations.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, it could be as rigorously structured as you want, or as use as you want.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying it's it's whatever you want.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: The way I think about it, it depends on the person.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: Like the way I approach these things, eventually, I found that my own approach to magic and this stuff aligned with some aspects of chaos magic, which is a very fluid way of taking different perspectives just because the point of it is to be this perspective for a week and be that perspective for a week.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that approach.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: That's so interesting.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: And that's belief used as a tool, not as an end in itself.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: Not that I have to believe harder, but I'm gonna take this belief system, even if it's atheism, and I'm gonna accept it as 100% true and operate as if and see what I get.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's so much belief.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: It feels almost like belief is the wrong word.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like just, and it's not wearing a costume, it's more that sounds too topical, but it's like I'm just gonna go all in and kind of adopt is like a kind of thing.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm going to immerse myself in this immerse myself.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: That's the word as fact.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to do my operations according to this and live like this, so and see what the results are.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: So it's not like do whatever you want, it's it's it's the fluidity and the flexibility of your consciousness and your worldview that allows you to I love this.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like being a scientist and doing an experiment in a way, exactly.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: And you are doing it on yourself.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: So have there been times that you've said, okay, I'm going to, you know, embody the this specific thing, and then you by the end of it, you went, I couldn't get rid of that quick enough.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: It just, you know, have you ever had that experience with your experiments?
21:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, well, it's like um, it's more so that okay, for me, it's like I'm okay having multiple contradictory worldviews at the same time.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: That you know that's unique, right?
21:27
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's pretty cool.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think about it.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, on any in in any given situation, I can be an atheist, I can be a magician, I can be a Buddhist, I can be a nihilist.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: It it doesn't matter.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: Like it, it's like one of those things.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: And I can talk about how my birth chart explains that, but I think that'd be kind of boring because I want to talk about the broader topic of what this might mean.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Where someone, I mean, a magician who's very Aquarian or Saturnian, they would very much into rules, lineage, order.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Structure and you know what's allowed and what's not allowed.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: My ultimate motto is to each their own magic.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: Now go out there and figure it out for yourself.
22:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: No one's going to hold your hand and tell you what you're supposed to do, and no one's going to protect you from your own mistakes.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: That's the hard thing about magic is that you are ultimately responsible for yourself.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: And you're responsible beyond that for everything that you do.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Nothing is going to forgive you and make it okay and take away the bad stuff and get you a no.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: That's a different game.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: That's more like a theistic game where you're hoping and groveling and praying and believing harder and begging for mercy and forgiveness.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: That's not the game we're playing here.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: Now, as a chaos magician, you can do that.
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: You can adopt that belief just for a week and then try that and then try to be a theurgist and try to do like deistic magic or something, theurgy with you know Christian magic.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: You can do that.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: And the question is now is the fun.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: It's it's like punk rock magic in a way.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: But that's that's I'm I'm painting a couple of different pictures.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Some of what I think I do aligns with chaos magic.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna say that I'm definitively a chaos magician.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying that I've just explored stuff as I saw necessary or kind of fell into.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: I picked up what I picked up and dropped off what I dropped off.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And everybody has that opportunity.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: I love that because too much of right now, uh I'm still hearing it.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like I've seen this pattern for the last year of gatekeepers, gatekeepers, gatekeepers.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: And it and I love this because the access is as free as people's imaginations can take them, their own deep dives into, you know, reading some of these um Gnostic texts that light their fire, and then just, I am my own experiment.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna just see what this is like and and take notes in a journal in your own grimoire.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I love this, I love this very much.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: We need more of this approach.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: And and the also I have to say one other thing is like the personal accountability and having personal responsibility with your magic.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I think we could even take out the with your magic.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: It's just guess what?
24:22
SPEAKER_01: This may be a video game, a simulation, a this, a that.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: We're responsible for ourselves and let's just be grown-ups and be responsible for our own thing.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: That would that would clean up so much bullshit in the world.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, uh, gatekeepers are fine, they'll repel the right people.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: In other words, so like yeah, and and you know what it's so and if and if you really want it, if it's really yours, no gatekeeper can stop you.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Excellent point.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: So take all this out of the equation, my philosophy, and just get after whatever the hell it is you think is yours, and you'll know if it's yours or not.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: You'll know eventually.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: I was listening to a podcast today, and he had been told that uh really good um some somehow he's Aries.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, he had a lot of mercury in his his sun sign.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: So he was uh guided that he was I wear a mercury-based ring on my finger and it just like seared his skin red.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, What does that mean?
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Does that you know, what does that mean?
25:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, but we're all looking for those things.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the person he was asking that question of has to read his whole chart to kind of understand, to just make an educated guess about that.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Because like you were talking about talismans, like my talisman, what I might want is so different than what you would want.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: What I would want now is in a talisman is different than I might want six months from now, too.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's just you really, I think that we have to have our thumb on our own pulse, is basically kind of what you're saying.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's my path, you know.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm I don't buy talismans from other people or uh, you know, do you make them yourselves?
26:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, talisman making is something I've rarely done, a couple of times maybe, but there's also an idea, it gets more abstract, like okay, so what is a spell versus what is a sigil?
26:25
SPEAKER_02: You can lay out cards in a certain fashion to make it into a sigil as part of your ritual.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: You can construct a ritual, and you can actually choreograph your behaviors that seem really normal from the outside to actually be specific steps toward a ritual.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is where the chaos magic comes in.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like you're again, this is I'm talking about my own experience.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not writing this book on chaos magic for telling people.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: So it's like if if you can if you can master your own consciousness, you've mastered your magical world, your magical temple.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: That's really what it comes down to.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: So when you're in your temple, which really is your consciousness, you don't need a physical space.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: You might need one in some operations, you might want one.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: But if you're really a magician worth your salt, you can be just sitting in your chair and you can do a thing right then and right there.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: And no one would know the difference.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm I'm am I answering your questions or am I?
27:19
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: I think you are obviously going around in circles.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: I can't tell.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: You are totally you totally are answering my questions because it all comes out down to our personal free will, our own personal, like our sovereignty, which is inherent, which I actually think is again, it may be something that's like, yeah, yeah, whatever to you, because it's just so a part of what you're doing right now and and have been doing for a long time.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: But for a lot of people, it kind of blows their mind because that's the thing that I think a lot of the noise you were talking about keeps people from really being aware of, is that we don't need, I think of Nacho Libre.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: If anybody knows that Jack Black movie, you don't need the stretchy pants and the boots, you can just do it.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: You don't sometimes it helps.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: I I mean make it like there's no either or it's yes and well, and know yourself because, like I, you know, I I do like sometimes having certain things because it marks the beginning of um, you know, clearing and cleansing my space before I'm gonna do something.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And then um at the end, it kind of closes off what I've opened up by doing that.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And I like to have the physical things sometimes.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to have all the things, but I do find that I'm more open now than I was even two years ago to saying, okay, I'm taking a bath.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: This is a really powerful place to cast this spell.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And I will do that because water, I really resonate with it.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it's so easy here in Seattle because I'm so connected to water here.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And I've built up these muscles from being in Colorado because I was so far away from water.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: I came back and I'm just like, I feel like Chris the rock with all these like spiritual muscles because I was out of my element there and I I can't wait to get back there.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: That's a huge point, Jennifer.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: That there are energetic places that are right and wrong for people.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna say that you should never go to a place that isn't your ideal element.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: It's just that, well, you have to be flexible as a person because and life, but but there are you know, there are places that are naturally charged and better for you, for the individual.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: In lieu of that, then you can use the thingy stuff, the ritual stuff, yeah, the physical stuff to like kind of create that elemental charge for yourself, someplace like that's yours in a small space that might not be ideal or perfect, but it's close enough.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: And again, for me, it's like does this get you there?
29:57
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like spiritual foreplay.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Does this does this game get your psyche to the right place into the magical space?
30:05
SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes I've been at work, like when I was working, you know, in a in a physical location, and I would just, and this is I was it was an intense environment, super busy, but I had to get something done.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: And I was allowed to, I'm not gonna say I did this, I was allowed to get my head into this certain sort of space where then everything lined up and I knew exactly okay, now if I go now, it's all gonna work out.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and it did.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: And this just one silly example.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, I think it's a resonance.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: In in one sense, control is an illusion.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: So magic is like, are you getting your consciousness to line up with the doors that are gonna be open, but you can't see otherwise?
30:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Right?
30:56
SPEAKER_02: That's one thing, or are you opening doors?
30:58
SPEAKER_02: I dare you to answer that question definitively.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, here's a little anecdote, but um, I mean, I don't know who can relate that's listening, but you're like, I have 15 minutes and I need 30.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna slow down the clock.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And you look at your clock and you're like, you're gonna give me 30 minutes.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you'll be 10 minutes through that thing, and you're like, ah, I have so much time on my hands.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: You are manipulating time.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: We're all able to do this kind of thing.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: And like the magic that you were talking about, I think that there's also an element of beginner's luck with some of it because once we do it once, we kind of overthink it, maybe.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I've done that, I'm guilty of that.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: Or it's a teaser, it's like, yeah, there's more there, and then it then then like the door gets closed on you, kind of like Doctor Strange when he goes and meets the uh the ancient one and she shows him all this multiverse stuff, and then she kicks him out.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: She's no, you're too arrogant, get the F out.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And then he But she knew it's there now.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can't unsee it.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Pick, you know, pick your analogy.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's wild, it's a wild ride.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: It is.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: Um to be to be fair, yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think people should understand that.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm having this conversation, and I'm someone who's been doing something weird and to whom something weird has been happening since I was a kid.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: So I've had no choice but to see and experience this stuff and then go after the stuff that spoke the language that made sense to me.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: So, like when I was a kid, I was getting books on astral projection, psychic powers, meditation.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: I was trying to do this.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Where?
32:42
SPEAKER_01: What libraries were you finding?
32:44
SPEAKER_02: I was going to Walden books and finding, I was going to the psychic section.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: It didn't matter if I was in the fantasy section, the psychic section, or the computer section.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: It was all the same to me.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: I get lost in bookstores.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, Wow, you can leave your body.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: Let me try that.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's this thing called meditation.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: I want to try that.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: And and and it just so this is me as a kid, and you can imagine over the years, I've been doing crazy shit my whole life.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: This is not someone who's never done this stuff.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: If they sit down for 20 minutes and meditate, it might blow their mind for years.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's that's the seriousness of okay, like take whatever you take from this, take this one thing.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna do the stuff, take it really slow and simple.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, a tiny spark can start a massive fire.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: So just yeah, you know, if you can just sit with your thoughts for five minutes a day, twice a day, once in the morning, and once in the evening, that's maybe when you're brushing your teeth.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying literally, like if you want to do magic, start by saying, Can I sit with my thoughts and concentrate on my breathing for five minutes?
33:53
SPEAKER_02: Twice a day.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: And if you can level that up to 20 minutes, twice a day in a few months, then maybe you can probably do this stuff.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: Or if you can't, you can at least have meditation.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: And you might not even want to do magic after you establish that because the stuff that that alone will open up might be so amazing that why do I want to bother with magic?
34:12
SPEAKER_02: I can just sit, concentrate on my breath, and go into this amazing state or contact or have this other benefit in my life that everyone says I'm calmer, I'm nicer, I get things I want because I'm asking the right way.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: So this stuff can unfold in such a plethora of ways.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sure can.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: It's funny because I was in eastern Washington growing up and I remember I didn't have the bookstores that we had little bookstores, we had used bookstores, and because I had a big brother that loved comic books, that was kind of a place that I found some magic in.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, if somebody imagined this, there must be a grain of truth to it.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: So I always felt like there was something there.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: But I specifically remember being about five years old, and I the library in Richland, Washington, had this fountain around it.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And you could walk along this, you weren't supposed to, but I walked along this little curb around it, and I was holding the best book I'd ever found in my life, which was Harold and the Purple Crayon.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Because to me, I was like, it just tickled my imagination of like, there are secrets in this book.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: This is real.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: He's taking a crayon and making worlds happen.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And I and I was so immersed in this book as I'm walking around this fountain that of course I fell in the fountain, I ruined the book, my mom had to pay for the book, which meant I got to bring the book home with me.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: That was magic unfolding right in front of you.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Like right there.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: And that's the thing.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: This stuff unfolds in ways that you wouldn't expect.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: That's the whole point.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Because the way you're expecting stuff to unfold isn't working.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Duh.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, something crazy has to happen.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: Like you have to drop a book in a fountain and get your mom angry at you and get what you're pissed at you.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Or maybe you're supposed to have that accident or trip and fall, and maybe something more drastic.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: The universe unfolds in crazy ways.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying be reckless.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying, you know, just that how about just wake up and if everything were working conventionally, why do we need magic?
36:25
SPEAKER_02: That's such a good point.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: We wouldn't, we wouldn't keep trying.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: And for centuries and centuries and centuries, people have been trying to um change what, and I think what it comes down to is we feel like so much is not in our control.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: So maybe magic is a way to break out of that control that other people have on us.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: But really good point.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: That's that's that's right in your wheelhouse with the whole AI stuff.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: I know you guys are kind of yeah, that's in the rearview mirror at this point.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: But it's true.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: But think about the encroachment and the increasing encroachment into our lives by AI, by algorithms, by feeds, and what we're supposed to know and what we're supposed to say.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: It's like, come on.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: I I was just talking to somebody today, um, actually, it was yesterday, um, one of my very oldest friends, and I was walking around, we were forest bathing together, and uh she said, I have to get off Substack for a while.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: She had to cull all of our subscriptions.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: She said, Because there's a fine line we talked about between it inspiring you to be creative and take time to do these things, and then it's like shaming you.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: There's a fine line of like, how are they having the time to post every day that they make this stuff every day?
37:48
SPEAKER_01: And and then it becomes a thing of like it's defeatist.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Why would I bother?
37:53
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, I I she got to that point and she said I had to just kind of pull a bunch of subscriptions and just really keep it down to maybe some words, you know, people that were writing some things that got me thinking.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, every once in a while, they would post because I just felt like an after failure.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: If you just go fall into that consumption rut of I'm gonna open Substack and consume something, it's like it's glut.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: It's just total glut.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's probably every social media feed.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, every you could you could put anything in there.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: I took I took like the second half of the summer off from Substack and it was wonderful.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: Nothing against my Substack friends or you know, subscribers or anything.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just like listen, I can't first of all, if somebody has something new to say every other day, something is very wrong.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: Like you so right.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: So again, I'm not into publishing cycles, and I'm not necessarily judging people whose livelihood depends on it because that's your business.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna judge that.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: I want a paycheck, they want a paycheck.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: I guess, but thank goodness that that's not my paycheck.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: So I do my everyday thing so I can live my life.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: And Substack for me is something that I should want to do.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: So if I'm not wanting to do it, it's nothing personal, it's just I don't want to do it, and that's that should be okay, which is like that.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: I think that most of us would want that for their you know, for their personal life.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I want to do something, I won't do it.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: If I do want to do something, I'll do it.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: That's pretty cool.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: A job is something else, anyway.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: It totally is.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, it was interesting because I asked my friend, I said, what did you feel every time you hit unsubscribe?
39:27
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, it was palatable.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: I felt guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: I and I said, I did the same thing because we often will be going through parallel um experiences, and then we come together and we're like, okay, that's the and I and she goes, Why'd you ask that question?
39:46
SPEAKER_01: I said, Because I just did this a few days ago, and people that I really love and respect and respect their work, they were they unsubscribe to me.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: And I'm and I thought, okay, I'm sorry it offended you that I unsubscribed, but I just it was too much noise, and I do want to have a little bit of a toe dip in there every once in a while, but it was just too much.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I did.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: I said I I not only felt guilty too, that's why I asked the question, but also I felt like shit when they were like, oh, now we're gonna unsubscribe to you.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I need to follow it up with the email of like, I really love your stuff.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: I believe By the way, I've unsubscribed because X, Y, and Z.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: That's what I want to say.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: I want a form blender of like, honestly, I just was in a place where I couldn't deal with this shit right now, and it wasn't not shit.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: I must have been it's cool because you can be a hermit now.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: I am being a hermit right now by not being on Substack.
40:42
SPEAKER_02: You can have a normal life, but then be this weird person that lives in a cave because you don't have any subscribers.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: When you unsubscribe, you're like, ah, fuck this, I'm leaving civilization.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like the best freedom about that.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Is such a freedom, though.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I want to be a mountain troll again.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: God damn it.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: I want to be on a mountain troll back in uh Colorado soon enough to be a mountain troll and where I can't hurt people accidentally.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm so sorry.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: I can't imagine you accidentally hurting people.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know, I guess whatever.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: We all we all can, I suppose.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: But I'm just having this vision of Jen Hoates like walking around tough guy, tough gal.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it happens.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, wait, but I did, I have legit questions for you.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead, go ahead.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna because the Pleiades, oh, the Pleiades.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Now they have been a big part of my like subconscious the last, I don't know, month maybe they keep coming up for me.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, Pleiades.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: All I knew about the Pleiades is they are a um grouping of stars that they used to be an eye test.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: That's what I this is all I know, which could be bullshit.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: And it's like I can count sometimes.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: I can count eight of them, but usually it's more like six or seven.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: And then I then I today I went into this rut where it's like it used to be the naked eye could see seven.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Very clearly, a lot of the stories, like every civilization has a myth about the Pleiades, the sisters there that were like chased or entrapped or hunted.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: And there were seven.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: And then about a hundred thousand years ago was the last time people could see with their naked eye seven, and now there's six, but there's really a lot more than that.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: So I come to you a blank slate, a blank dry erase board, not knowing anything, or maybe knowing stuff that's stupid.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, full full disclosure, uh, what you're talking about enters into the realm of fixed stars.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and I don't I don't work with the fixed stars.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: If thanks for clearing that up.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: If something doesn't if something doesn't call like in the same way that I don't work with Chiron, I don't work with that, you know, that particular point.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do work with Lilith, Black Moon Lilith.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: I really want to talk about Black Moon Lilith too.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: But I don't, you know, I don't work, I I work with you know, with with the with the eclipse nodes.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, that's depending on who you asked, that could be very dangerous, risky work.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying you should people should work with the eclipse nodes, um, especially the south node, that could be really, really hairy.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: But um really so yes, what I'm saying is I don't work with fixed stars, they don't call to me.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: They like so like I'm very pragmatic in the sense that if something talks back or if something like I I need to interact with a thing.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: If the thing is not gonna interact with me, why am I gonna you know waste my time with it?
43:42
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, not that I don't think they're important, right?
43:44
SPEAKER_02: It's just I'm I'm kind of busy with other stuff.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: And and and they they haven't particularly called to me.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: So uh if they when when and if they do, I'll pursue that.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: The I mean the information's out there.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, I should just read, read, read in jest and see what
44:00
SPEAKER_02: But the fixed stars, if I if I gotta correct the the Pleiades are, I think a point between like late Taurus and early Gemini by degree.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: So like something 28 Taurus and zero degrees Gemini, they're a cluster in there.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: Again, fixed stars are not.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I mean, I know of them, and I don't want to say more and you know fair enough.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: We're letting that go.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Pleiades.
44:24
SPEAKER_02: Your friend, I listened to your friend Pete's uh podcast.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: I think he works with he works with fixed stars, I believe.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: I know he's the one I should ask about Pleiades.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: Probably you're asking the wrong astrologer.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: He's so he's uh you guys should be friends, but he is so funny because he will say things and then he'll dance on the fine line, and then he's trying to be, you know, PG for the podcast.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: And then afterwards, I'm like, when you said that the that you work with like you know, the goddesses first thing in the morning when you wake up, I'm like, Are you doing sex magic?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And he says just laughs.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: He turns red and he goes, I didn't want to say it on your podcast.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes he seems he seems like a really great guy.
45:03
SPEAKER_02: And again, you're gonna find cool people in this forum that are doing interesting things, and you know, it's like I don't know why we have this vision that one person should know everything, like the arch wizard that night.
45:17
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's all Hollywood crap, you know.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: I feel like the closest to that is probably Rachel White.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, well, she she is like her mind is like an encyclopedia.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, she has the Akashic Records.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: She's the she's the Gemini in disguise.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: She's like pretending to be cancer, but she's really Gemini in disguise.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, anyway, explain so much.
45:38
SPEAKER_02: So, like there's there's you know, people that have that encyclopedic or kind of bent on like the researching the facts and getting the structure and the hierarchy and where this belongs and that belongs.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: And and there's people like more like me that are kind of like gardeners and just explorers.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't care about the big picture.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't want to know the big picture necessarily.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: If it comes to me, fine.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: But I'm I just love being lost in the haunted forest.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Like this is like I'm being as literal as I can be using a metaphor.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: I love, in fact, I have a little shack that's in a haunted forest and it's in a clearing.
46:12
SPEAKER_02: And this, this, this, this haunted forest.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: If you can get through it and find my shack, I might help you out.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: If my open sign is on and a fire split, and you bring me a beer.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, like run.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's so funny is we're I feel like we're so different in that way.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Because here's me, I want to learn a thing so that I can help other people learn a thing.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, here's my light, here's my light, here's my light.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, I can show you the way.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Do you want out of your little your little cabin?
46:44
SPEAKER_01: Are you ready?
46:44
SPEAKER_02: And you're like, I'm I'm dousing my flame.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying, shit, there's people on the trail.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: Put the fire out.
46:50
unknown: Yeah.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Blow away the smoke.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: Like they will let them.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, seriously, that's that's kind of like a character that I play.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you know, um, in all seriousness, if I ever do a second season of my podcast, yes, um, I want to get away from the astrology per se and like interview like specific practitioners that are doing like out there stuff.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: They aren't like official, they aren't polished, they aren't like, you know, part of some order, or they might be, I don't know.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: But if if they're if they're like genuine people doing something that like maybe they're just not known that well, right, or they just have a specific take on a subject that's like unique or yeah, refreshing, I would love to do that, you know.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I will have links to your um what you want people to reach out to you with in the show notes.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: And so if anybody, if that spoke to anybody, they're like, I didn't even know about this thing, but I was doing this thing, and then I found out there's a name for this thing.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: You might be perfect, and you might be one of the people that help Sam to go, you know what?
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I want to have a season too.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, that'd be an interesting conversation, yeah.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, I have a handful of ideas about who I would invite, and this is just like a dream upon a speculation upon a maybe.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's a little more substantial than a part.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: It just it smells a lot nicer.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: That's because we have Rachel's tinctures that uh make it smell so good.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so please.
48:21
SPEAKER_02: All right, ask questions.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: Black Lilith, black Lilith, Black Moon Lilith.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: So black moon, you hear about Lilith even in celestially as having like three faces.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I don't even understand that.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Is there an asteroid named Lilith or something?
48:38
SPEAKER_01: It's not just Black Moon Lilith, which I need you to describe to me.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: Black moon Lilith is what I'm talking about.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: And black moon Lilith is a mathematical point in the same way that the nodes are mathematical points, and I'll talk about that.
48:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: So black moon Lilith is the calculation of the moon's farthest position from the earth.
48:59
SPEAKER_02: So it's like wherever the moon might be, yeah, Black Moon Lilith is gonna be the farthest point from the earth.
49:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a mathematical, it's hypothetical.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't exist as a solid object, yeah.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: So she's an idea.
49:14
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love this.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: There's different interpretations of her, for example, she's the place where somebody has repressed something or feels shame about something, the guilty pleasure or not so guilty pleasure.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I generally think of her as um, so to play off an idea, and I'm not referencing specific myths, I'm just saying to play off the idea of a feminine force that cannot be tamed.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Now, interpret that however way you wish.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: She's kind of outside of order and structure, she doesn't belong to some kind of hierarchy.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: Her sole purpose, as I see, is to destabilize and upend every order, every hierarchy, every system.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: So she's not containable.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and in in that sense, she's like pure yin, pure chaos.
50:01
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: And so how we might experience that, for example, is in our chart.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: Lilith might be, let's say, Lilith is in the place where you are enjoying things, supposed to enjoy things.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: Yet there's just repression and guilt there.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: So, like, why?
50:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, why is there this point of complete repression of what it is you you feel is so destabilizing and so rebellious, right?
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Some people though, they might just be have no problem with that sense of rebellion and chaos.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: And so it's like maybe want to turn that a little bit down or because they could become almost addicted to it, I feel like.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: So um, I don't take that particular point as something that is necessarily good or bad.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: None of them I take that way.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: But Lilith can be challenging because again, I see her as the untamable, untamable, unrepressible feminine form.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: She will come out, she will destabilize, she will rebel, she will cause some kind of disruption somewhere.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: And the way I've conceptualized this further is that you would see from an opposite sign some kind of attempt to compensate for that up and that kind of that kind of push.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: So, can you give an example to the listeners of that?
51:15
SPEAKER_02: So I wrote an article about this on Substaff.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I talked about when Lilith transited Scorpio, and then so I interpreted that in terms of what that mean for Scorpio, what that would mean for Scorpio.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: And then I also interpreted what that would mean for uh pushback from Taurus, and so that's all out there, and you know, it's a fun article.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'll I'll take it off the paywall for for for when this when this pops out.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: That'd be nice.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: And you know, on that note, I put myself behind a paywall largely to protect it from AI and like you know, fake accounts that are just like trying to grab stuff, you know.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: Totally are right.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've given my friends and you know people that have engaged with me meaningfully like free um subscriptions, you know.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: So if I missed you, let me know.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: I I can't remember everything.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so anyway, that's out there.
52:06
SPEAKER_02: And so like think about little so Lilith and Scorpio would be using Scorpionic energy, right?
52:12
SPEAKER_02: To unleash like libido, sex, aggression, things that Scorpio wants to keep under wraps and under control.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: And then Taurus on the other side of the horizon is saying, no, not death and all the stuff, but life and hardiness and my stuff, pleasure, and enjoyment, and nothing fucks with me, right?
52:33
SPEAKER_02: So uh so there's this interesting dynamic that you could interpret using Lilith and the opposing sign, whereas where are shadows and projections coming out and what's trying to compensate for them, you know.
52:45
SPEAKER_02: So you can look at Lilith in your birth chart where that might be happening and look at the opposite sign.
52:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then you can look at Lilith in transit.
52:53
SPEAKER_02: And I believe she's in Sagittarius now, if I'm not mistaken.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Wow, I'm Sagittarius.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: So is she the kind, is this the kind of energy or is she the kind of force that, okay, I'm I'm gonna go ahead and give you hints to what is weak, what I'm unleashing, and then I'm gonna get more dramatic if you don't get it in the subtler form, and I'm gonna get less and less subtle.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: It's something in you that's demanding expression.
53:22
SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, the more you the more you repress and push it back, the harder it's gonna push back, like June said, and I kind of agree the that which you resist persists.
53:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, but if her transit is activated, like that stuff, that shit's gonna haunt you like hard.
53:39
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's gonna throw up shadows at you, things you're gonna project onto others that you don't like about yourself from that sign in that house, whatever that might be.
53:48
SPEAKER_02: If it's work related, that might be about your coworkers, your boss, whatever.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: If it's in if it's in your if it's in your seventh house, you're gonna start shadow boxing your your your your your spouse.
54:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh God.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:02
SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
54:03
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a it's a it's a fun and interesting sort of energy.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh and again, I started working with her when I felt the transit hit me.
54:13
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like, what is this?
54:15
SPEAKER_02: And I opened up the sky and I'm like, oh, welcome, Lilith.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: That's what's happening.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is what's happening.
54:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing, though.
54:28
SPEAKER_01: I I love, I actually, that's where I've been connecting.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: And uh it goes back to conversations that I've had with Pete, but I've I didn't realize how deeply I'd been connecting with these very fierce goddesses that won't be tamed.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: But their, you know, their message uh, you know, the Morgan being one of the main ones, but Hecate was, oh my God, she like I feel like together with Pete during the last conversation we had with him, we invoked her and she cut away so fast, made my head spin.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: And I and he goes, Hey, and then in DMs, in TikTok in DMs, he says, Hey, yo, my guide said, Are you good?
55:10
SPEAKER_01: Because um, I'm supposed to remind you, you have always stood in your own power and you're good with that, right?
55:15
SPEAKER_01: And I went, Hecate cut away some shit for me a lot.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, I told you she worked fast.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: I said, I just I didn't expect that fast.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: Did you talk more about what happened, or is that too uh private?
55:28
SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I think that's probably off.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: I would tell you off uh mic for a man.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: But you know, but the Morgan I could talk about because the Morgan's like uh she was really clear with me.
55:40
SPEAKER_01: She said, Um, because I was really intrigued by her, even when I was buying the book.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: Did I tell you because I was in a Denver store, magic store, and the young man said, She's no shit.
55:50
SPEAKER_01: Do you are you sure you want to buy this book, lady?
55:53
SPEAKER_02: It's like a movie where the kids go in to buy a book on and the person on the counter is like, oh it's an 80s trope.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: Dude, I'm like, Are we in the Goonies?
56:03
SPEAKER_01: So I said, I've I've already been working with her for the last year.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, You have?
56:08
SPEAKER_01: And it was all of a sudden, it's like just hearing that.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: I swear chest hairs just exploded from his chest.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: And he went, What?
56:15
SPEAKER_01: And I went, Yeah.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: So I just didn't even know her name.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: And um, I don't know, she told me to look at her other faces, so I need to understand.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just been reading this book, and in this book was this passage that really hit me over the head like an anvil.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Everybody associates me with war because that's what they're looking for.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: Let's go scorched earth, let's use the human carcasses as our shields.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: But once their bellies are full of blood, they'll see another face of me.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I keep telling her, so all my prayers to her were, My belly is full of blood.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: I want to see other faces of you.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: And she put me in these situations that you just can't make this shit up, where like I'm I'm walking on a trail and a woman's stopping me and she's like, Are you going the Morrison formation?
57:02
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yep, I sure that's where I'm headed today.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: And she goes, There is a gigantic snake.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: I think he's dying on that trail.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how what gashed him, but he's dying.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: And I went, Oh, fuck.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: And so I had a moment because we were right at the fork and and the fork, fork tongue, snakes, the morgan.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't make this shit up.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the signs line up.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: It does.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: And then, and so I could have taken the journey to do the Red Rocks trail and and not encountered the snake, but I knew I've been on this journey with the Morgan and I'm like, I don't know, but I think I need to be there to help this snake cross over if a snake needs that, or just be there to witness it.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: And I decided to go up the trail and I uh was bawling.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: I realized that this snake had probably seen me hiking this trail how many times and recessed into the the cracks of a boulder just because it's like people, people are scary and bad.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: And um, but it had witnessed me and we had a relationship and this land had this guardian in the snake.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: And and now I'm starting to cry again too.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: And but I'm like, I need to be someone needs to cry for the snake, someone needs to be there to um help it cross over and say, I'm sorry to the land for what just happened to you, and maybe start figuring out how the land is gonna say, I I can we're nothing will be the same as that snake, but we're gonna fill the void.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, but those like that was the Morgan.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: And so she's teaching me that after the battle is fought, everybody romanticizes war and battling, but it's after the battle that it gets really to me very interesting with the Morgan because she's like, What are we gonna build now?
58:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what you know, now we have the carnage, so what are we gonna do with the dead?
59:01
SPEAKER_01: And then what are we gonna build now?
59:04
SPEAKER_01: And that's the question.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: So much of society seems to be so focused on the burn it down what's here right now.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, politically.
59:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, the fantasy might be that that's easy.
59:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, we get that's like, yeah, we're and of course everyone's the winner in their own head.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: So but but she's taught me that it's like that's actually where the real work begins, and we need to really be purposeful.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's been an interesting journey with the Morrigan.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: Um fascinating.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, just to your point about Hecate, I think it's important to remember that these things aren't real, whether they're an aspect of your higher self or your consciousness or some deep thing, or then actual other entity or non-human intelligence, that that leaves that you know, you can work that out or or not.
59:52
SPEAKER_02: Um when these things do show up, it's can be it can be very unsettling.
59:58
SPEAKER_02: And so back to my point that you need some kind of stable practice and grounding and yeah, resilience to be yes to really do this stuff.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_02: And if you're kind of maybe fortunate or unfortunate to be talented, that first time might be very lucky.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, Sam, I told you I'd leave you to an hour um with the listeners.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: So is where do you want him to find you?
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: Do you want him to find you?
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: Did we talk about liminality?
1:00:27
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I could keep going.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: The whole thing was liminal.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like it definitely was liminal.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, is there any other liminal stuff you wanted to talk about?
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: We were talking about how words are liminal before we hit record.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, everything's liminal.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean everything, yeah.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: There is no non-liminal thing.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: That's the did you did you watch back rooms when you're I did not watch back rooms, no?
1:00:49
unknown: What?
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I was on the fence, I was on the fence about it.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: I heard I ended up I ended up seeing Odyssey, which I said I wouldn't, but I ended up seeing the Odyssey, which I have not, I haven't seen the Odyssey.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: I stand corrected, it did not suck.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay, it was okay awesome.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: And I also saw I also saw Spider-Man uh which no spoilers very liminal character.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_02: If yeah, very if you see Spider-Man uh brand new day, I think it's called anyway, no spoilers.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_02: But um Odyssey wasn't liminal so much, I don't think.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: Um it was I think it was very different.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_02: But to answer your question, I think the paradox is that there is no like liminal versus non-liminal.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_02: Everything is liminal.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_02: So are you I agree?
1:01:33
SPEAKER_02: Where are you spending most of your time?
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: And can you help it?
1:01:36
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's the question.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, if you think about the things all around us, I remember when um the uh just a couple things.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: First, first thing, I know I bag on Zach Baggins a lot.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, my listeners know.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: I think part of it is because I usually have 20 Zach Baggins from Ghost Adventures that are following me, the fake Zacs on um Twitter and other socials.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: But what some of the things that he says are based in he is doing some research.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: And I do research too, and like the stone tape theory being that sometimes rooms, spaces, places will have echoes of things, and you happen to be there to bear witness to them.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, like residual hauntings and stuff, right?
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's like memorized, like stone tape being that it was a surface that that memory, that that time, that moment was like impressed into the surroundings, and you happen to be there when the tape plays again or it's repeating constantly.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: So um during that deep dive with stone tape, I got into the thing of everything's energy, and everything is moving all the time, nothing is actually stationary.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: And I was having a conversation with my eldest, and it's like to try to stay the same, even as a human being, is actually the hardest thing that you could probably ever endeavor to do.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: We are constantly changing, everything around us is changing, and we're energy that's like we are liminal.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_01: We are, and what I love it's not spoiling anything, but one thing I think it's very worth watching backrooms, even if you just go to the YouTube videos that originally um spurred it on, um, were the original creations of it, because it it's something is so unsettlingly familiar about some of these places that people have created in these movies.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: And it I think that the thing that really hit was when there's versions of it where the place is trying to remember the person, like the stone tape theory kind of, and it's it's it's playing the recording back, but it's a little bit different every time.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: So the eyes are just of the person are a little bit different.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: So there's another set above here and another set.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's crazy, yeah, another set above here.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: But it resonated with me because it just goes back to the stone tape theory for me.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like I think that we everything that we're doing is casting ripples all the time.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that it goes back to accountability for my energy and I bring these things, you know, to a space.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, my daughters and I making jokes about it's awkward when we realize we made our own poltergeist at the old house, you know, the thing that we were terrified of, we actually created.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_02: So that's a chaos magic idea in some ways, like you know, creating a servitor, um, a thought form that does things for you, and that eventually it just the stronger it gets, it takes on its own like existence.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_01: And don't you think gin could be that?
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could be that generationally, I mean, we all have a we have a history with gin, don't we?
1:05:03
SPEAKER_02: We we we have had a gin and tonic uh here and there, haven't we?
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, yeah.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: So the oh I all right.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_02: So I I can get technical, but I don't want to.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to get like I don't want to.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_02: Don't make me don't make me get technical and nerdy sounding.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna take me out of my shack.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_02: Make me hold up scrolls and shit.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do that.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, I don't want to do really what what you know, like your agenda, but uh to liminal.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: I have no agenda.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: So here's my what we started talking about was that words are liminal because they're not things in and of themselves.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_02: They're I mean, we use sound waves, but we don't have to use sound waves to express them.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_02: You can be blind and experience words, you can be deaf and experience words, right?
1:05:52
SPEAKER_02: You can read them, you can feel them through braille, you can see the symbols, and they represent other things.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_02: And yet, as Verbal creatures, right?
1:06:02
SPEAKER_02: Words are like, I mean, hey, writers make their living off of words, things that don't exist.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_02: And fiction writers are telling lies that people love.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_02: And yet with lies, we can tell the truth.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_02: And the truth can be constructed in such a way to have a double meaning and embed a lie.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_02: And so words are liminal and words are mercurial.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_02: I have to shout out to Mercury today.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_02: It's Wednesday.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: Mercury's Day.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: So a liminal day for anyone who's thinking about liminality.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_02: Mercury would be one of the gods or celestials that you might want to work with if you are so inclined for liminality.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_02: Be careful.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say that.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_01: Should we be careful working with Mercury?
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: And um, are there people that are more like they're more hardwired with their birth charts, maybe to have more um easy success with Mercury?
1:06:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and yes, yes.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_02: So uh I think the most well, everyone has a Mercury sign, everyone has a moon sign, everyone has a Mars sign, everyone has right, and depending on the rules, these things are either like either neutral or not like neutral in terms of good or bad, but like they're either like not particularly characterized or activated, or they're very activated, or they're somehow forced to behave atypically.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, they could be your chart ruler, they could be the ruler of so the ruler of your ascendant is one gateway, like one in principle, easier or more naturally to work with celestial.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_02: So let's say your um rising sign is Scorpio, then Mars would be like the ruler of your chart.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_02: If you have a Mars in Aries, Mars is naturally activated and strong.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_02: So working with Mars isn't necessarily to make Mars stronger, it's more like to attenuate and refine Mars in that particular placement.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: But again, depends on the house and what you're I mean, in a in a war situation, you don't want to attenuate Mars and Aries.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: You want Mars and Aries on full blast.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_02: So it depends on the situation, depends on the person, depends on what you feel like you need, and you will be corrected if you if they care enough to work with you, they're not bad, they're not evil, they're not gonna necessarily like hurt you or get get you into deals you can't get out of.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_02: But you if they agree to work with you, if you ask permission and respectfully approach them and they say yes, you'll get feedback.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: Um and it won't be subtle.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I haven't felt it to be subtle.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_02: That's what that was the feeling I was getting.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_02: But depends on what you call subtle.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: So I I can I can close my eyes and I can see things and hear things, and it's pretty erratic, but with ritual, it can be focused.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_02: And so um it depends on how you experience what we're calling the liminal.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, Venus is gentler in principle to work with, but again, you want to be careful about the balance of Venus, so excess with Venus or Jupiter isn't great.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_02: Back to my attempt to circumlocutive attempt to answer your question, but not be geeky or nerdy.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, so so we have the chart ruler, which is the the ruler of your ascendant.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_02: We have a sovereign planet.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, if you have a fallen planet, right?
1:09:30
SPEAKER_02: So if you have a uh a planet that's fallen or exiled, um, I wouldn't work with them directly until you get your bearings on the whole celestial magic, planetary magic thing first, and then start to approach them and see if you can so-called like uh do like rehabilitation with that planet to kind of understand why and how they're fallen or exiled and how they want to work.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: Like if the moon's in Capricorn, moon in Capricorn is an exiled planet, and so she she can't do typical lunar things there.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_02: She has to, in principle, she has to obey the rules of Capricorn, which are opposite to her nature, right?
1:10:10
SPEAKER_02: So, how do you approach that?
1:10:11
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I explore this in some ways on my mooncast.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_02: Um anyway, it's complicated, yeah.
1:10:19
SPEAKER_02: But when you understand the language, it's not so complicated.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: So if you want if you want hints, I'm here for it.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_02: And I'm here myself.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_02: But you know, if you can pull me out of my shack for a f a few minutes, oh uh it's illuminating stuff.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it truly is.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_02: It would be, I'm not gonna, there's no one size fits all answer here.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_02: I don't work that way.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_02: No, um, so I would look at your chart and then take a listen to what your particular interest or problem is and why you even want to do this in the first place, and then we can work out a syllabus.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: People are always but Mercury comes with such stigma, they'll say, Mercury is in retrograde, uh, you know, and blame every that's what I feel like.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: I thank you for just confirming what my gut was saying.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_02: So much just that's just internet memes, really.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_02: So retrogrades.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, let me let me be let me be more more serious.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, retrogrades used to bother ancient astrologers because something is moving in a way it's not supposed to.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_02: Like, why is this wanderer?
1:11:15
SPEAKER_02: Because they didn't refer to them as so planet means wanderer, they saw them as wanderers in the sky, and there's these forces wandering in the sky, and they seem to go in this pattern, and then all of a sudden they just stop and they go backwards, and then now they go forward again, right?
1:11:33
SPEAKER_02: So it was disturbing to them, it was disturbing, they were terrified of retrogrades, it meant bad things, like oh my god, what's actually happening if you want to think about it orbitally is that we're catching up to the planet, or that planet's catching up to us.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_02: So as you pass a car, it seems to slow down, stop, and then go backwards, right?
1:11:54
SPEAKER_02: But the cars, the two cars are still in motion.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_02: Same thing with the planets.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_02: We're catching up, or they're catching up to us around this racetrack around the sun.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_02: And from a geo, from our point of view, everything is from our point of view in astrology, from our point of view, uh, here on Earth, this tiny puny little speck of blue and green.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, it looks like the planet is slowing down, stopping, and going backwards, and that would tweak them out.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_02: What's happening is we're getting closer in physical space, we're getting closer to the planet.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_02: So you could interpret that as an intensification of mercury.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it could be an opportunity.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_01: I see opportunity in that.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: And and so Mercury is the god or goddess, gender ambivalent.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you're if first of all, if you're a mercury heavy person, right?
1:12:41
SPEAKER_02: If you're kind of dominated by Mercury, you can really use that um to communicate better, to write better, to send letters, to really pull the wool over some people if you want to.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_02: She's ambivalent or or she's not moral in that sense.
1:12:54
SPEAKER_02: So tricks, magic, communication, writing.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, you can do all sorts of things with Mercury's favor that would seem impossible.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_02: So you can use a retrograde as an intensification of the planet.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_02: If you want to be all dour about it, fine.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_02: So this is like some kind of omen, and there are astrologers that would read that.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_02: But as a planetary magician, I don't necessarily worry about that.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: Although I might take into consideration the quality of a retrograde, because a retrograde points to something in the past and the planet returning to the previous sign in some cases.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_02: So, what's like the revisit here?
1:13:30
SPEAKER_02: If Mercury goes from Pisces back to Aquarius and then pops back in.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_02: So, like she's revisiting Aquarius for something.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_02: Did I leave something there?
1:13:40
SPEAKER_02: Am I supposed to do something with Aquarius in my chart?
1:13:43
SPEAKER_02: Or is there something in the current chart of the moment where I'm doing the spell where Aquarius is relevant, right?
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: For this retrograde.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_02: So there's all different kinds of considerations like that.
1:13:54
SPEAKER_02: And let me add something else to make it more confusing.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_02: If you do this stuff long enough, right, you'll start doing things and you say, Hey, that was Mercurial.
1:14:04
SPEAKER_02: You'll pop open the planetary hour calculator, and guess what?
1:14:07
SPEAKER_02: It's the hour of Mercury when you did it.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_02: And that's just, yeah, yeah.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, I'll give another example.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_02: One night I was meditating and um I suddenly saw a wolf just walk up to me, right?
1:14:22
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, afterwards, I'm like, what happened?
1:14:25
SPEAKER_02: Pop open my planetary calculator, our cal, and it was the hour of Mars.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_02: And the a wolf is a symbol of Mars, one of.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_02: And I had done a ritual to Mars earlier.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_02: So it's like these things happen, okay?
1:14:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they they happen, they're real enough to me, as real as anything else.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, what was your question again?
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, just about Mercury that this little space in Mercury, but that actually reminded me, okay, a couple things, because um, so it are the colors of Mercury, are they like silvery black, gray?
1:14:58
SPEAKER_01: What are the colors of Mercury that you associate with Mercury?
1:15:02
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, you can use like, well, here's the chaos magic bit.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_02: If you've trained yourself to associate like purple or orange with mercury, let's say more orange, I would say, if it was a golden dawn system.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_02: Um Mercury is a shapeshifter as I understand her.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_02: She's a trickster, shapeshifter.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_02: You you won't know necessarily that it's her.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, or by by how she looks, she can take any form she wants.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: So um that's the hard part with so Mercury's the most versatile, the most change changeling type of uh in celestial, you'll encounter.
1:15:44
SPEAKER_02: Saturn, I go with black and gray.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_02: Jupiter is gonna be like um, you know, blue and purple.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: I would think that's more Jupiter's like the rich regal colors, purple, right?
1:15:55
SPEAKER_02: Mars is red, unambiguously red, maybe leaning toward brown for Mars and Capricorn, um, more orangey for Mars and Aries.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh, let's take a look.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_02: So moon is gonna be silvery, dewy colored, like silver.
1:16:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the sun is gold, obviously, right?
1:16:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, what am I missing here?
1:16:14
SPEAKER_02: Earth is well, we don't really, I don't do planet work with Earth.
1:16:18
SPEAKER_02: We're here, yeah.
1:16:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, Jupiter.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_02: So Saturn, black, gray, Jupiter, purple, Mars red, Venus is green.
1:16:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, Venus is like the kind of greenish, but but but I more so than colors, I experience them as form and sound.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_01: What I feel like most people don't.
1:16:40
SPEAKER_01: That's something you have to develop.
1:16:42
SPEAKER_01: You have to be open to it.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_01: And if you if you've endeavor to, you know, work with them, maybe if you're working deciding to work with them, they say yes, okay, fine.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_01: I picture it if you've ever seen Harry Potter, when Harry Potter bows and Buckbeak bows back to him.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_01: That's how the the celestial body is like acknowledging it.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we do it one thing at a time because it could be different for every single person.
1:17:12
SPEAKER_02: So, right, I think that's a good point.
1:17:14
SPEAKER_02: Everyone's different.
1:17:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's why I'm reluctant to give structure.
1:17:21
SPEAKER_02: And you'll have to figure out if it's you know who's who's working with you.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it is I find it to be collaborative.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, nothing is ever forced, and it's not like I don't have to believe harder, and I don't, I don't know.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_01: There's such freedom to that, and I'm so sick of that dogma.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_01: I had something happen not this morning, but the morning before.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_01: It was like between 3 and 5 a.m.
1:17:47
SPEAKER_01: on the West Coast, and clear as anything, I heard mom.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_01: And it was just such a happy mom.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was a boy, a little boy, and I have two grown-up daughters.
1:18:01
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't, and I went, that's interesting.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_01: So I made a note of it in my journal, and I know something was excited to found had had found me that was excited, and the energy was all like golden white light.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_01: So there's something that I'll be working with soon or have been, and I didn't know, but I get to have a formal introduction.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm interested.
1:18:28
SPEAKER_02: Colors are hard because there's official, quote unquote, official charts of like colors and planetary associations, stones, incense, colors, jewels, the whole bit, right?
1:18:39
SPEAKER_01: That's the same with angels.
1:18:40
SPEAKER_01: People with work with angels, they say, Oh, Jaffiel is pink or this and that.
1:18:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I don't even get the same gender as other people when I'm working with angels.
1:18:49
SPEAKER_02: I don't I have to be empirical with this stuff.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_02: So if I do something according to a planetary ritual, so like the planetary day, the planetary hour, um, the way I understand how I ritualize things.
1:19:03
SPEAKER_02: And if something responds to me, I don't care what the color is.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm not worried about that at that point.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_02: I just have to verify what I'm getting with respect to the ritual that I did.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it would surprise me, for example, if I were doing a ritual with Saturn and something purple showed up.
1:19:20
SPEAKER_02: Like I've and for me, it'll be remarkable on a couple of fronts.
1:19:24
SPEAKER_02: I don't see colors like that when I do rituals necessarily.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:19:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, and if I do, it matches what I expect.
1:19:30
SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't know if that's just me psyching myself into it, but if I'm trying to approach Saturn and I just keep seeing being overwhelmed by purple, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_02: Maybe Jupiter's showing up.
1:19:43
SPEAKER_02: I'll need to look at things and say, what's going on?
1:19:46
SPEAKER_02: What am I got?
1:19:47
SPEAKER_02: What have I got wrong here?
1:19:48
SPEAKER_02: Am I did they did I calculate my time?
1:19:50
SPEAKER_02: Is there some some other thing I didn't account for happening upstairs?
1:19:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_02: Hasn't happened yet.
1:19:56
SPEAKER_02: Um I think it'd be kind of playful.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_02: He's black and gray.
1:20:01
unknown: Wow.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
1:20:04
SPEAKER_01: And the collective, I think, experiences Saturn as black.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, people talk about the Kabbalah stone at Mecca as being um, you know, a physical manifestation of Saturn.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
1:20:17
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that interesting?
1:20:18
SPEAKER_01: I have a Shangite uh cube and I always hold it and it always reminds me of Saturn.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_01: It it's very fierce and it clears and cleanses and grounds me like that.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_01: I just pick it up and it's done.
1:20:30
SPEAKER_01: The work is done.
1:20:31
SPEAKER_01: Usually I have it next to me, but I don't today.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, yeah.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_02: So if you have like a talisman of Saturn or something that's like safer in a sense to work with, or some kind of object that's imbued with Saturnian energy as opposed to working directly with these things.
1:20:46
SPEAKER_02: So again, I'm a little crazy.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of like I said, I when it comes to this domain, I'm a little fearless and crazy.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_02: I've been through a lot, so I kind of know myself.
1:20:57
SPEAKER_02: Our general audience, right?
1:20:59
SPEAKER_02: They might not so approach very gingerly and maybe start working with something simple like the moon.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_02: So the moon in my podcast, my whole idea was that the moon is a very accessible gateway to the liminal because everybody has a moon sign and it's a primary luminary, like the sun.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_02: So the sun and the moon are two luminaries.
1:21:20
SPEAKER_02: The moon is the light, is the night luminary.
1:21:23
SPEAKER_02: So if you have a if you're born before sunrise, right?
1:21:27
SPEAKER_02: If you're born after sunset and before sunrise, you have a night chart.
1:21:31
SPEAKER_02: The moon is your primary luminary.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, or if your moon sign is someplace strong, like Cancer or Taurus, or even someplace neutral, and you have a night chart.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_02: Starting with the moon is perfectly fine, right?
1:21:44
SPEAKER_02: You can start with the sun.
1:21:45
SPEAKER_02: The sun is very obvious, but it's so conscious.
1:21:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so conscious that it kind of, you know.
1:21:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've worked with the sun before, but it's not something that I approach often.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh doesn't I don't feel I need to.
1:21:59
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not shit talking the sun.
1:22:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, um, I have a night chart, I'm extra lunar, I am extra introverted.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_02: So this stuff, yeah, I follow my own makeup in that sense.
1:22:10
SPEAKER_02: But you could start with the moon or something like gentle, like Venus.
1:22:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:22:15
SPEAKER_02: Um tender.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_01: I always think of Venus as tender energy.
1:22:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:22:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:22:20
SPEAKER_02: That that might be easier in some ways, but if you have a very martial chart, Mars might be more accessible.
1:22:26
SPEAKER_02: And that could be where you're more comfortable working with, starting at work.
1:22:30
SPEAKER_01: Um interesting.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, you know, when this comes out, it'll be the end of September, early October.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_01: But this last weekend was September what?
1:22:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm going backward.
1:22:45
SPEAKER_02: Sixth was Sunday, seventh was Labor Day, fifth was Saturday.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_01: And I on Saturday, I had two women in my life pass away that were like they were like um, you know, like surrogate mothers in my life.
1:22:59
SPEAKER_01: I had a mom have a stepmom.
1:23:01
SPEAKER_01: I love them so much, but they were like different kinds of role models, they were different kinds of cheerleaders in my life, and they both passed away on the other side of the state within hours of each other.
1:23:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:23:16
SPEAKER_02: I uh it's just that's just I'm sorry for your loss.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've just been thinking about them, but um, but also the gifts, and it just reminds me, they they remind me that um sometimes the best reflection that like kids will get growing up is not necessarily from their parents.
1:23:36
SPEAKER_01: I always tell my kids, it's like there's there's gonna be people that come into your lives and they did.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: I I said this when they were younger, and they see you better than you see yourselves.
1:23:46
SPEAKER_01: They see other things in you and go ahead and believe them.
1:23:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's what these women were for me.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_01: Just go ahead and believe them.
1:23:54
SPEAKER_01: And um, and then you find that you become that that they already had as their reflection back to you.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so it was just kind of a weird weekend of a lot of people deciding in my my experience in this part of Washington, deciding to kind of be done with this human experience for right now in this way, in this body.
1:24:18
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, maybe I can do other things in other ways.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_01: And um, after they both passed, and again, I'm not their closest family, but I'd been thinking about both of them all day and really glad that both of their suffering was done.
1:24:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, on the wall in my bathroom were these two rainbows, and I could not find a source for them.
1:24:41
SPEAKER_01: But they weren't your, you think of a rainbow in an arc, you know, typically.
1:24:46
SPEAKER_01: These were just two straight beams of rainbow.
1:24:50
SPEAKER_01: And um, to me, it just felt like they were both saying, we're here, but we're also still on earth.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're in the celestial, we're still on earth.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like it felt very north-south to me, a very clear uh message to me.
1:25:05
SPEAKER_01: It's like we're not only okay, we're actually plugged into all of it all at once.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting.
1:25:13
SPEAKER_02: Where do where do we go really?
1:25:14
SPEAKER_02: I mean, where do we come from and where do we go?
1:25:18
SPEAKER_02: Where do we go?
1:25:18
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I mean, do we really is there really anywhere else to go?
1:25:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh I hope so.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I but I mean in terms of I think so.
1:25:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so yeah, we're embodied here.
1:25:28
SPEAKER_02: We're in these like lumpy, you know, walls of meat suits, meat suits awkward.
1:25:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and yet you can have experiences that are way outside of that.
1:25:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:25:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I don't know where is there really anywhere?
1:25:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, isn't everything all here?
1:25:43
SPEAKER_02: I guess it is.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_01: I I mean that I'm of that school, I'm of that belief, and I'm of I'm I think that one of the contracts, it's like one of those old spiritual rules that you hear is that if you decided to be in this life, the the deal was that you were supposed to forget all of your other lifetimes, all of all of all of what you are, and that you are everything and you're a part of everything.
1:26:09
SPEAKER_01: That was part of the contract.
1:26:11
SPEAKER_01: And I actually don't buy into that.
1:26:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I call bullshit on that now, more and more the older I get.
1:26:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, I actually think that that is something that we're indoctrinated into.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_01: I think there is something to be said for if I had all of the lives in my brain rattling around from my past lives, it might make me a little bananas.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_01: It might make it a little hard to have the conversation I'm having with you if they're all talking in my head at the same time and wanting to ask you questions.
1:26:40
SPEAKER_02: So I think that this human form, from what I've experienced of these things, this human form just can't take it.
1:26:46
SPEAKER_01: That yes, it almost, yeah, it it's too fragile a vessel for that.
1:26:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really is.
1:26:53
SPEAKER_01: Um so what happened to you as a kid?
1:26:56
SPEAKER_01: That that do you remember that very you you said something happened to you when you're a kid, a child, really early days.
1:27:05
SPEAKER_02: Like I mean, a very early.
1:27:06
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember like the earliest thing or one of them?
1:27:09
SPEAKER_02: Um Well, I I have experiences that I don't have language for.
1:27:18
SPEAKER_02: And I I I mean, honestly, like I would get excited at the prospect of there being ghosts or or what I would call dreams at that point.
1:27:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, some of them were nightmares, some of them were dreams, but they felt very real to me.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_02: And there were things I experienced while I was awake that don't make sense to me, I don't have words for.
1:27:37
SPEAKER_02: And there's swaths of my childhood I don't remember.
1:27:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is before, this is before the actual really like like physically scary stuff started to happen.
1:27:49
SPEAKER_02: Um and I'm not talking about woo stuff now, like actual, like frightening situational environmental stuff.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_02: Um but it despite Despite all that, you know, again, I was always attracted to this stuff.
1:28:04
SPEAKER_02: I could not say that this something was happening, things were happening.
1:28:08
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have words for eventually.
1:28:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I knew witches were real.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_02: I just knew it.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_02: There was a part of me that knew, like, there's this thing called a witch, and she's real.
1:28:17
SPEAKER_02: And so there was also family rumors about people in my family that had certain gifts.
1:28:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, so and and and they they were demonstrated to me once in a very unambiguous way.
1:28:30
SPEAKER_02: So stuff like that.
1:28:32
SPEAKER_02: And and I'm I'm less than eight when this is happening.
1:28:36
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot for that age group.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_02: So um, but I guess so yeah, I I I'm not saying you have to go through this to do this stuff either, right?
1:28:48
SPEAKER_02: So again, like you you said it best.
1:28:50
SPEAKER_02: You you said the key to everything, Jen.
1:28:53
SPEAKER_02: Know thyself.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_02: That's like the plaque over the Delphic Oracle, right?
1:28:59
SPEAKER_02: It's in the matrix, it's like the hinge of the movie, and it's there for a reason.
1:29:04
SPEAKER_02: You start this magical path with know thyself.
1:29:07
SPEAKER_02: And if magic does anything for you, it should be at the end to know thyself.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_02: If that's not what you're getting out of this, what the fuck are you doing?
1:29:16
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:29:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is tangential, and I might be opening up.
1:29:21
SPEAKER_02: You know who you're talking to, right?
1:29:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean Pandora's box.
1:29:25
SPEAKER_01: But did you ever get tested for the gate program?
1:29:30
SPEAKER_01: In your school.
1:29:31
SPEAKER_02: I've heard you guys talk about this.
1:29:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I really wanted to ask you specifically about that.
1:29:36
SPEAKER_02: So I think I remember having an IQ test like out of nowhere.
1:29:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:29:42
SPEAKER_02: And but I had just gotten the chicken pox and I came back and I was a real mess and I scored poorly on it.
1:29:49
SPEAKER_02: And my um, my guidance counselor, I think I was like, I don't know, this must have been like late middle school or early high school.
1:29:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:29:59
SPEAKER_02: My guidance counselor pulls me out afterwards and she goes, I happen to know your IQ is a lot higher than this.
1:30:06
SPEAKER_02: So something is something, what was going on?
1:30:09
SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, I had the chicken pox, I was sick, I don't know.
1:30:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and not that I put any stock in IQ or anything like that.
1:30:15
SPEAKER_02: Right, nothing.
1:30:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't really believe in I don't really believe I'll be really mean.
1:30:20
SPEAKER_02: I don't believe in the educational system.
1:30:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah, there's that.
1:30:24
SPEAKER_02: I don't believe in IQ tests, I don't believe in intelligence, I don't believe in the education system.
1:30:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh but your guidance counsel counselor knew well enough that like you were the kind of person that maybe you would test well or something.
1:30:35
SPEAKER_02: That's the only thing that I remember.
1:30:37
SPEAKER_02: But we had these like like pullout programs.
1:30:40
SPEAKER_01: Did you have pullout programs on any of no?
1:30:42
SPEAKER_02: We had scoliosis tests.
1:30:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was so weird.
1:30:46
SPEAKER_01: When Jesse brought that up, they were obsessed with our spines.
1:30:50
SPEAKER_01: That was weird.
1:30:50
SPEAKER_01: Why?
1:30:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but I remember when my girls uh turned to middle school age because you know, I'm like, I'm just this kid, and they make you take off your shirt for to show your back, and you have to bend your back over in front of all your peers.
1:31:05
SPEAKER_01: And I said, You don't have to do that.
1:31:07
SPEAKER_01: If they tell you you have to do that, you tell them uh no.
1:31:10
SPEAKER_01: And they were like, they looked at me like I was crazy because their schools never even thought about doing that.
1:31:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was my favorite.
1:31:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm being a knucklehead now, but my favorite was watching that film Reading, Writing, and Reefer.
1:31:23
SPEAKER_02: There was this documentary we had to watch on how bad marijuana was, and it was like the best thing in the world.
1:31:30
SPEAKER_01: Wait, it's already on YouTube.
1:31:32
SPEAKER_01: What is it called?
1:31:32
SPEAKER_02: Reading, I think it was called Reading, Writing, and Reefer.
1:31:36
SPEAKER_02: And it was it was like interviewing all these stoner kids, and they were having problems in their lives.
1:31:42
SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, half the class was getting baked.
1:31:49
SPEAKER_02: Good times.
1:31:50
SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
1:31:51
SPEAKER_02: Gen X is so cool.
1:31:52
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I I love our generation.
1:31:54
SPEAKER_02: I know, I know we get some flack, and I'm not trying to be like that guy.
1:31:58
SPEAKER_02: I just we just like had this the most weird combination of things growing up.
1:32:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, I had a moment where I I like I had so I was a chubby middle schooler, and I had this rainbow arc shirt that had three quarter sleeves because somehow I thought that was slimming, and it the rainbow just extenuated accentuated my extra weight around the middle.
1:32:23
SPEAKER_01: And I remember like going around and trying to get money because all of the pop stars were singing a song and we were gonna bring Christmas to to Africa, and then I remember I had a moment a few years ago and went, isn't most of Africa Muslim?
1:32:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, what the fuck were we doing?
1:32:43
SPEAKER_01: And why were Sting like and all of them singing for this?
1:32:47
SPEAKER_01: It's like for this Christmas.
1:32:49
SPEAKER_01: Do they know it's Christmas at all?
1:32:51
SPEAKER_01: Do they that was the song?
1:32:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like, and I was like, Do they know it's Christmas?
1:32:55
SPEAKER_01: I need to raise my own.
1:32:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, do they care that it's Christmas?
1:32:57
SPEAKER_01: Do they really even care?
1:32:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now I'm like, dude, that wasn't even their fucking religion mostly.
1:33:03
SPEAKER_01: What were we doing?
1:33:04
SPEAKER_01: But our hearts were in the right no, we wanted to save the world, right?
1:33:08
SPEAKER_02: We were supposed to save the world and do the right thing.
1:33:11
SPEAKER_01: We really did, and I I stand by that.
1:33:13
SPEAKER_01: I love being a kid in the 80s, I do so.
1:33:16
SPEAKER_02: The tricky thing with Mercury is tangent, yes, please.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_02: She or he or they are are harmonize impossible dualities.
1:33:25
SPEAKER_02: So, like they're gender ambivalent, their form is ambivalent, they could be male with female, female with male, male with male, female with female, doesn't matter, right?
1:33:34
SPEAKER_02: And and they will express duality in such a way that we cannot force it to be one or the other.
1:33:40
SPEAKER_01: I love this.
1:33:41
SPEAKER_01: I actually love Mercury energy then because I Well, you have a Gemini Rising.
1:33:46
SPEAKER_02: I've I've done your I've done your thing.
1:33:48
SPEAKER_02: You have oh my god, Mercury is your chart ruler.
1:33:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, no wonder because it's literally that's why I have this season of the liminal space, is because I feel like the real magic, if there is any set definition of what magic is, it is it is living, it's like this kind of plasma that exists between these two dualities that we're told that nothing exists between.
1:34:15
SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
1:34:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that plasma ball in the middle is really the juicy stuff, and that's really what I'm going after now.
1:34:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm like that's highly mercurial, and mercurial is the god of magic, you know.
1:34:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's one of their offices.
1:34:31
SPEAKER_02: So language, communication, writing, you're that.
1:34:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh wow.
1:34:37
SPEAKER_02: And you know, she she is also a goddess of magic and the able to in her uh earthy form when she rules Virgo, she's much more um into the underworld and going being able to go down into the underworld and bringing things back and at will going into that dark places and coming back with unrestrained.
1:34:57
SPEAKER_02: Like I also I was laughing about this during the eclipse.
1:35:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was laughing about this during the eclipse.
1:35:02
SPEAKER_02: I was driving when we were driving home, I was altered.
1:35:07
SPEAKER_02: I was in the passenger seat, and I'm looking up at the moon, and I'm like, Yeah, everyone's talking about how the lunar eclipse and this and that with Virgo, but actually, Mercury's their sovereign, and she's like, I'm gonna fuck with all of you and bring back stuff that you thought was you were gonna get rid of with this eclipse, and all this other stuff.
1:35:30
SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking about this, and all this stuff from my past was coming up, and I was having a great time with it, you know.
1:35:37
SPEAKER_02: If you just like it's just funny as hell because people writing about this stuff, it's like teenagers talking about sex, and I'm not yes, there's like a there's an astrology that is like really just teenagers talking about sex, yeah, and there's the lived experience of like what does this eclipse really mean for me?
1:35:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, not the whole world because no one can really say that.
1:36:00
SPEAKER_02: No, not this country because no one can really say that, but what does it mean for me?
1:36:05
SPEAKER_02: And that to me is so exciting, so meaningful, and that's like yes, this is it, this is what I'm supposed to do.
1:36:14
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, sorry, I'm getting I love that so much because the picture I had in my head is basically you you spend a weekend with your partner cleaning out your house, giving away five carloads of stuff to the goodwill, and then you come back to your house and it's all there in your house again.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
1:36:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, what the did I imagine that we did that?
1:36:35
SPEAKER_02: Like, rang right back, right?
1:36:37
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:36:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like I I'm and then you're like going around touching your things, going, I'm glad I didn't give this away.
1:36:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank God this is back.
1:36:46
SPEAKER_01: I have something new I want to do with it.
1:36:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if if if Mercury, I mean Mercury can do that in a very real sense, bring back something super valuable for you that you might have lost, or it was taken from you, or like taken to the underworld, you thought it was dead and gone, and she can resurrect it and bring it back, yeah, just like that, just as quickly as she could take it away.
1:37:07
SPEAKER_01: And and and she comes with this, like because of the absence of the time away from the old thing or the old stuff or the old trope or the old storyline, you can come back to it and you can have a new perspective on it.
1:37:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I talk about the two women that died um on Saturday, and I wanted to be respectful of the family and not put it out there, the names as I was, you know, because I was called not to.
1:37:33
SPEAKER_01: But um I wanted to say what they meant to me.
1:37:37
SPEAKER_01: But in that piece, this old part of myself was like, and where was my mother?
1:37:41
SPEAKER_01: Because they always were at the things.
1:37:44
SPEAKER_01: And then I that, but the but I had had this experience over the last couple of weeks of like, my mother was trying, she was a single mom trying to keep our heads above water.
1:37:55
SPEAKER_01: God bless her for being out there working her ass off.
1:37:58
SPEAKER_01: And God bless her if she decided to have a beer with her co-workers afterward instead of going to my award ceremony.
1:38:05
SPEAKER_01: The universe provided it filled in the gaps, it provided the people to be my cheerleaders during those times.
1:38:13
SPEAKER_01: So my mom could be the person she had to be to keep our heads above water.
1:38:17
SPEAKER_01: And it was such a different thing.
1:38:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like I felt this sloughing off of this old timeline of like, I'm not a fucking victim.
1:38:24
SPEAKER_01: The universe was constantly giving me more than what I needed in every situation.
1:38:30
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that's true for everybody, but I was able to have this perspective shift in the matter of minutes as I was writing it because I wrote down a sentence and I went, that's not how I feel.
1:38:41
SPEAKER_01: How when did I feel like that?
1:38:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm realizing if you had asked me last week, I would have said I felt that way about my mom not being there.
1:38:48
SPEAKER_01: And then today it's like, that's not me.
1:38:51
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't even fit who I am or who I how I see my mom anymore.
1:38:55
SPEAKER_02: That that changeability, that flexibility, that sudden perspective change that's very mercurial.
1:39:00
SPEAKER_02: Thoughts are governed by mercury.
1:39:02
SPEAKER_02: And I this just came to me.
1:39:03
SPEAKER_02: What?
1:39:04
SPEAKER_02: If anyone who's a tarot reader, just do an experiment, okay?
1:39:08
SPEAKER_02: Do you do your card readings the way you usually do?
1:39:12
SPEAKER_02: Then start doing your card readings only on Wednesdays or on Saturday night and after, and invoke Mercury, light a candle, light some incense, read the Orphic hymn to Mercury, ask them to preside over the reading and then do your reading.
1:39:31
SPEAKER_02: Now do that a couple of weeks one way, a couple of weeks the other way, then compare notes.
1:39:35
SPEAKER_02: Take good notes and judge for yourself the difference.
1:39:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but you said something I don't understand.
1:39:43
SPEAKER_01: My blonde self.
1:39:44
SPEAKER_01: The or the yeah, the Orphic Mercury.
1:39:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if you want to do something traditional, you can search online for the Orphic hymn to Mercury.
1:39:53
SPEAKER_01: Orphic hymn to Mercury.
1:39:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll put it in the show notes.
1:39:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:39:58
SPEAKER_02: So you want to do this anytime Wednesday?
1:40:01
SPEAKER_01: When anytime Wednesday or Saturday.
1:40:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so starting at sunrise on Wednesday, not before sunrise.
1:40:07
SPEAKER_02: So sunrise Wednesday all the way into um before sunrise on Thursday.
1:40:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:40:16
SPEAKER_02: So you can do got it, or you can as a second, you can do Saturday night after sunset before sunrise Sunday.
1:40:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, got it.
1:40:26
SPEAKER_02: So planetary hours and days don't work by midnights, they work by sunrise to sunrise.
1:40:31
SPEAKER_01: This is such a fun experience.
1:40:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then let us know how it goes.
1:40:35
SPEAKER_01: Like hit us up and let us know how it goes.
1:40:37
SPEAKER_01: You can email the show or you can uh go straight to Sam and let us know.
1:40:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm curious.
1:40:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it might be different, it might not be.
1:40:45
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to like, you know, just observe for yourself as objectively as you can.
1:40:49
SPEAKER_02: It's all in extreme.
1:40:50
SPEAKER_02: Tarot readings are different.
1:40:51
SPEAKER_02: And why am I saying that?
1:40:52
SPEAKER_02: Mercury as a god, goddess is of magic, also governs tarot cards.
1:40:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:40:59
SPEAKER_02: Because tarot is also yes, right.
1:41:01
SPEAKER_02: So of course.
1:41:02
SPEAKER_01: Um oh, this is so I think that we've left people with a lot of beautiful, happy, and believe it or not, I'm gonna say fucking hopeful stuff here.
1:41:13
SPEAKER_01: It's like the if we hold gently this life, whatever it is, and and look at it playfully with curiosity as an experiment, and um, you know, and that we're learning just about ourselves.
1:41:27
SPEAKER_01: We're thinking about what is over our threshold, those words over our threshold.
1:41:31
SPEAKER_01: Does it bring us closer to learning more about ourselves?
1:41:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, then I think we need to do more of it.
1:41:37
SPEAKER_01: I heard today that a pendulum, I was always like, why won't a pendulum work for me?
1:41:42
SPEAKER_01: I had a block with pendulums, but then I heard something today, and it's like, it's just a great way for your micro movements of your subconscious, they're giving you an answer.
1:41:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's um what it shows more um obviously in a more exaggerated fashion on the end of a pendulum.
1:42:03
SPEAKER_01: And it made it feel like, oh, I had fear associated with a pendulum for some reason, and it's gone.
1:42:09
SPEAKER_01: So I love this playful aspect to tarot because all there are people that have a stigma with tarot.
1:42:15
SPEAKER_01: I love it, I love the cards, I don't know how to read it, but I really love this.
1:42:20
SPEAKER_01: So I love this approach that we're giving people and let us know how it goes, guys.
1:42:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it would be really fascinating to see how that goes and then correlate it if you want to take it to the next level.
1:42:32
SPEAKER_02: Where is Mercury in my birth chart?
1:42:34
SPEAKER_01: And does that have any but they should they should they do after they do their experiment and just see oh, it does correlate or they it doesn't?
1:42:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, get some data first and then do your pattern matching, yeah.
1:42:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, but the idea is to do a ritual, ask Mercury to preside over the reading and then afterwards thank them.
1:42:55
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to banish or anything like that unless you want to.
1:42:57
SPEAKER_02: You're not calling anything dark or you know demonic.
1:43:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:43:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, if you if I mean if I mean Mercury is your thoughts, so uh yeah, you're not gonna get away from her.
1:43:10
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:43:11
SPEAKER_01: And I love it so much.
1:43:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, thanks so much for sharing such time with us and um promise you'll come back anytime.
1:43:19
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you want a tangential conversation that starts out here and goes there, and God knows where else in the middle, I'm here for it.
1:43:27
SPEAKER_02: You managed to pull me out of my haunted shack in the forest.
1:43:31
SPEAKER_02: So just congratulations.
1:43:32
SPEAKER_01: Because look how bright the light is behind me.
1:43:35
SPEAKER_01: There's actually a lake behind me, and all you can see is this sun, sun, sun.
1:43:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's see.
1:43:41
SPEAKER_02: What time is it?
1:43:41
SPEAKER_02: Let's see Seattle.
1:43:43
SPEAKER_01: It's 5 55 in Seattle.
1:43:46
SPEAKER_02: Oh, nice.
1:43:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:43:48
SPEAKER_02: We started this conversation, what, 7 p.m.
1:43:51
SPEAKER_02: my time?
1:43:51
SPEAKER_02: That was the hour of Mars.
1:43:54
SPEAKER_02: We went through the sun.
1:43:55
SPEAKER_02: Now we're ending in the hour of Venus by me.
1:43:57
SPEAKER_01: By Vita.
1:43:58
SPEAKER_02: By you though.
1:43:59
SPEAKER_02: Let's see where you are.
1:44:01
SPEAKER_02: Seattle, that's three hours difference.
1:44:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:44:05
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so we started at 4 p.m., which was the hour of the moon.
1:44:12
SPEAKER_02: Run through the hour of Jupiter, and we're ending in the hour of Saturn.
1:44:16
SPEAKER_02: Very interesting.
1:44:18
SPEAKER_03: What?
1:44:18
SPEAKER_02: But this whole day, this whole day was presided over by Mercury.
1:44:22
SPEAKER_02: If you want to use planetary days, so that's why I said do Wednesdays or Saturday night where Mercury's a night ruler.
1:44:28
SPEAKER_01: And let us know, guys.
1:44:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm we're not, I'm not joking.
1:44:32
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
1:44:33
SPEAKER_01: Even if you go, you skip over me and go straight to Sam and give him the goods.
1:44:37
SPEAKER_01: I want to hear.
1:44:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, tag me.
1:44:38
SPEAKER_01: I gotta know.
1:44:40
SPEAKER_02: I promise I don't bite.
1:44:41
SPEAKER_01: Um all right, Sam.
1:44:44
SPEAKER_01: Love you.
1:44:45
SPEAKER_02: Love you as well.
1:44:46
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
1:44:47
SPEAKER_02: Talk soon.
1:44:47
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
1:44:48
unknown: Bye.