Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Suitcases and Signing Bonuses

Transcript

Suitcases and Signing Bonuses · Rosters to Rings Podcast

0:04
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to rings everyone. I am Ryan McDonough,
0:08
Speaker 1: joined as always by Thad Levine. That we're approaching Christmas,
0:12
Speaker 1: only a week or so away. At this point, there's
0:15
Speaker 1: a lot going on in the sports world. The San
0:17
Speaker 1: Antonio Spurs and New York Knicks played on Tuesday night
0:21
Speaker 1: in the NBA Cup. That was won by the New
0:23
Speaker 1: York Knicks, which probably means that they'll losing the first
0:25
Speaker 1: round of the playoffs, because that's what happened the last
0:27
Speaker 1: two winners of the NBA Cup. Michigan is looking for
0:30
Speaker 1: a new head football coach after the unfortunate scandal involving
0:34
Speaker 1: Sharon Moore. I'm sure you read and heard about that
0:36
Speaker 1: last week. That saga is ongoing in Michigan. And then
0:40
Speaker 1: the college football playoffs get started this weekend. Teams five
0:43
Speaker 1: through twelve play, the top four seeds get buys and
0:47
Speaker 1: then wait, the winner of these eight teams, the four
0:49
Speaker 1: winners of the games this weekend. But that where all
0:52
Speaker 1: want to start. We'll get into the NBA later in
0:54
Speaker 1: the show. We have listener questions from producer Wyatt, which
0:58
Speaker 1: has become a fan favorite. At least if you Whyatt
1:00
Speaker 1: as a fan too. It's a favorite of his. I
1:01
Speaker 1: don't know if it's a favorite to the listeners, but that
1:03
Speaker 1: where I want to start the show is Major League Baseball,
1:07
Speaker 1: because you know, we had the Winter meetings, the season
1:10
Speaker 1: is over, obviously, the Dodgers are champions, the off seasons
1:13
Speaker 1: in full swing, and if you look up and it's Christmas,
1:16
Speaker 1: and I know you know this better than anybody within
1:18
Speaker 1: almost three decades of MLB experience, the spring training is
1:22
Speaker 1: not that far away. Pitchers and catchers report relatively quickly
1:25
Speaker 1: after the new year, and then we go again into
1:26
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty six MLB seasons. So that where I
1:29
Speaker 1: want to start with you is take us inside a
1:32
Speaker 1: front office this time of year. What are presidents, general
1:35
Speaker 1: managers and the guys who work for them doing and
1:37
Speaker 1: working on to try to get ready for spring training?
1:41
Speaker 2: And Ryan, great to see you. I think we touched
1:43
Speaker 2: upon a few elements of this, but I thought it
1:44
Speaker 2: would be fun just to go through kind of a
1:46
Speaker 2: step by step process of what's going on in last episode,
1:50
Speaker 2: and I think we'll get into it later in your segment.
1:53
Speaker 2: We talked about the importance of December fifteenth and the
1:56
Speaker 2: NBA and relative to that opening up some tradeoff Well,
2:00
Speaker 2: I think December twenty fifth is a big date in
2:03
Speaker 2: Major League Baseball. A lot of guys want to have
2:05
Speaker 2: a home by then when they are going to dinner
2:08
Speaker 2: or the holiday dinner. They want to be able to
2:09
Speaker 2: answer the question where are you playing next year? And
2:11
Speaker 2: so you're starting to see more teams move, more players sign,
2:15
Speaker 2: more trades being made. So let me just take you
2:18
Speaker 2: through what's going on behind the scenes from my experience
2:21
Speaker 2: in Major League Baseball front offices of the first step
2:24
Speaker 2: is trying to do as objective an assessment as to
2:27
Speaker 2: where you are based upon your strength to your roster
2:29
Speaker 2: and some of the tools that fans can use to
2:32
Speaker 2: follow along. Every team has their own internal system, but
2:35
Speaker 2: fans can go to fangraps. There's a link called the
2:38
Speaker 2: depth Charts. It gives an assessment of a player by
2:42
Speaker 2: player assessment of how strong their roster is. It updates
2:46
Speaker 2: with every signing, every trade that is made. It projects
2:49
Speaker 2: how many innings pitched, every pitcher will have, every plate
2:52
Speaker 2: appearance a guy will have. It signs award of that player,
2:56
Speaker 2: which aggregates up to a team. And as we've mentioned past,
3:00
Speaker 2: if your team aggregates to about forty to forty five
3:02
Speaker 2: war in total. You're typically a ninety plus win team
3:06
Speaker 2: and you're going to be a playoff contending team. And
3:08
Speaker 2: generally speaking, if you're trying to calculate war, you add
3:11
Speaker 2: forty eight wins to your team's war total. That gets
3:15
Speaker 2: you to about the projected number of wins. Now, of course,
3:18
Speaker 2: there's give or take every single year. So you first
3:20
Speaker 2: ground yourself and where you think you are competitively as
3:23
Speaker 2: a roster. But then you assess what does the rest
3:26
Speaker 2: of your division look like from a competition standpoint, what
3:28
Speaker 2: does the wildcard race look like in your league? And
3:31
Speaker 2: then what is the league strength? And so from then
3:34
Speaker 2: you try to assess how much ground would we need
3:37
Speaker 2: to make up to become a playoff contender or a
3:39
Speaker 2: force when you get into the playoffs. I think then
3:42
Speaker 2: from that point you really try to look at where
3:45
Speaker 2: are we deficient, Where are our needs, what are our surpluses?
3:48
Speaker 2: Where do we lack depth? Because Ryan, as you know,
3:51
Speaker 2: you can't get through the season just with your starting
3:53
Speaker 2: roster or just with your initial group of players that
3:55
Speaker 2: you put together. You got to have like lines of
3:58
Speaker 2: defense behind that in order to build a roster that
4:00
Speaker 2: can sustain a championship caliber run throughout a course of
4:04
Speaker 2: a whole season, ideally into the playoffs.
4:06
Speaker 1: So that, in addition to evaluating what you already have
4:09
Speaker 1: as a team, take us into the thought process behind
4:12
Speaker 1: what you need as a team. The two things I
4:14
Speaker 1: think we hear the most about. The thing we hear
4:16
Speaker 1: most about as fans are free agent signings and trades,
4:20
Speaker 1: in both of which you are happening this time of year.
4:22
Speaker 1: So how to front office balances that and take us
4:25
Speaker 1: behind the curtain what are they actively working on right
4:27
Speaker 1: now looking at both of those options. You've said it before.
4:30
Speaker 1: Free agency can be a bit easier if the owner
4:32
Speaker 1: is willing to spend, but sometimes you can get caught
4:34
Speaker 1: up in the throw of chase from my experience, and
4:36
Speaker 1: end up overpaying guys because by definition, the guy that
4:39
Speaker 1: gets paid the most usually goes to that team. So
4:41
Speaker 1: how do you balance that between the trade market, which
4:43
Speaker 1: obviously has a cost with what's going back in return
4:46
Speaker 1: to bring in a new player or multiple players to
4:48
Speaker 1: your club.
4:50
Speaker 2: Well, I think if fans want to follow along with
4:52
Speaker 2: what front officers are doing, give or take their two
4:54
Speaker 2: tools out there. As I mentioned, one is that fan
4:57
Speaker 2: Grass in their depth charts, it gives you an assessment
4:59
Speaker 2: of where you're strong work your week. Sot tube is
5:01
Speaker 2: based on reference MLB Summary page. You can click on
5:04
Speaker 2: that and understand really where you stack a position by
5:07
Speaker 2: position within the league, within the major leagues, and so
5:10
Speaker 2: you can really get a sense of what the team's
5:12
Speaker 2: needs are there. So then what is happening is you're
5:15
Speaker 2: ultimately trying to create a prioritize list of all the
5:18
Speaker 2: trade and free agent assets out there that can help
5:21
Speaker 2: address your needs, help improve your team. And the best
5:24
Speaker 2: way to do that you've got to get on the
5:26
Speaker 2: phone and talk to twenty nine other clubs. And what
5:28
Speaker 2: most runt offices are doing today, they're dividing that responsibility
5:31
Speaker 2: between three, four or five people. Each person may have
5:35
Speaker 2: anywhere between six to ten teams. They're managing those relationships
5:38
Speaker 2: as best they can. They're staying in constant contact with
5:41
Speaker 2: those teams, and they're trying to assess where may there
5:44
Speaker 2: be fits where our needs aligned with your surpluses and
5:47
Speaker 2: vice versa, who is open to making trades. Similarly, you've
5:51
Speaker 2: got to get on the phone with all the agents
5:52
Speaker 2: who represent players that may fit your needs, and then
5:55
Speaker 2: you start putting a list of prioritized players together. And
5:58
Speaker 2: then once you've kind of done that, then you start
6:01
Speaker 2: putting together what is the acquisition costs to acquire those players.
6:06
Speaker 2: So now you have your list of the priority of
6:07
Speaker 2: who would help us the most. But now we need
6:09
Speaker 2: to understand what the cost is. And from a trade standpoint,
6:13
Speaker 2: usually in baseball, that's measured in surplus value. So what
6:16
Speaker 2: is the future value of the prospects I'm trading to
6:19
Speaker 2: get now ready major league players? What is the reasonable
6:21
Speaker 2: amount of war I can expect for those players and
6:23
Speaker 2: the time in which we would have them, And then
6:25
Speaker 2: there's a net number that comes out of that. Are
6:27
Speaker 2: we overpaying, are we underpaying, or are we paying whatever
6:30
Speaker 2: is appropriate? But we put that number up on the
6:32
Speaker 2: board next to the prioritized list of that guy's name. Similarly,
6:36
Speaker 2: we're going out in the free agent market. We've talked
6:38
Speaker 2: about this in episodes past. We want to pay somewhere
6:42
Speaker 2: between six and twelve million dollars per unit of war
6:45
Speaker 2: based upon what our payroll size is. We now understand
6:48
Speaker 2: from the agents what's going to take to sign those
6:50
Speaker 2: free agents. Now, all of a sudden, I think we
6:53
Speaker 2: have to reconfigure our board to understand, Okay, what is
6:56
Speaker 2: the acquisition cost of these players juxtaposed against the cost
7:00
Speaker 2: associated with acquiring them and the impact we think they're
7:02
Speaker 2: going to have on our team. So now we're kind
7:04
Speaker 2: of repeating these constant, constantly repeating these steps of talking
7:09
Speaker 2: to teams, talking to agents, understanding what the updated, the
7:13
Speaker 2: most up to date acquisition costs to these players. We're
7:16
Speaker 2: then circling back with our internal systems to understand what
7:19
Speaker 2: is the projection of how this team, how the player
7:22
Speaker 2: could impact us. That list is constantly then evolving. It's
7:26
Speaker 2: it is, it's something that we're working on almost on
7:29
Speaker 2: a daily basis. Typically the senior decision maker has a
7:32
Speaker 2: big board in his office. These are whether that's it's
7:35
Speaker 2: you know, ink on a board or whether it's magnets.
7:37
Speaker 2: These are moving constantly as we get you know, information
7:41
Speaker 2: that is updated on a daily conversation by conversation basis.
7:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ed, you mentioned a lot about war and kind
7:47
Speaker 1: of the quantifiable aspects of trading for players and signing
7:51
Speaker 1: free agent players. Tell us a little bit more about
7:54
Speaker 1: how all thirty teams view that. Is it a straight
7:56
Speaker 1: line number imagine some teams maybe rely on it more
7:59
Speaker 1: than others. Are there any old school gms or presidents
8:02
Speaker 1: who kind of throw that out the window and go
8:03
Speaker 1: where they're gut or say, you know, I know the
8:05
Speaker 1: guy didn't play as well recently, but that's because of
8:07
Speaker 1: he's been injured or whatever the case may be. You know,
8:10
Speaker 1: take us inside kind of the range of is every
8:13
Speaker 1: team using more similarly with that, or do different teams
8:15
Speaker 1: kind of wait that differently, or or there's something that
8:17
Speaker 1: really don't wait at that heavily at all.
8:20
Speaker 2: Not to put all out of pressure on White, but
8:21
Speaker 2: that was an excellent question there, Ryan, Yeah, So the
8:25
Speaker 2: answer is everyone is slightly nuanced in this. We all
8:28
Speaker 2: have internal systems. I referenced some of the public systems
8:30
Speaker 2: that fans can go look at and review, but everyone
8:33
Speaker 2: has an internal system and those internal systems are driven
8:36
Speaker 2: by and large on your scouting reports, which will be
8:39
Speaker 2: individualized to every team out there. Some things are a
8:42
Speaker 2: little bit more normalized medical information, statistical information, biometric data, video.
8:48
Speaker 2: Your assessment of the makeup of those players will be
8:52
Speaker 2: by each club will be very unique and very distinct
8:55
Speaker 2: and different. So each team is valuing players a little
8:57
Speaker 2: bit differently. One thing I will say observationally is every
9:01
Speaker 2: team likes their players more than any other team does,
9:04
Speaker 2: because keep in mind, your system told you to go
9:07
Speaker 2: out and get those players, so your system really likes
9:09
Speaker 2: those players. So then once you acquire them, your system
9:12
Speaker 2: is always bullish on your team's performance. So as much
9:15
Speaker 2: as we see those numbers publicly, we use them because
9:18
Speaker 2: I think crowdsourcing is very valuable to understand and to
9:21
Speaker 2: kind of ground us. But by and large, almost every
9:24
Speaker 2: team expects to do slightly better than what those projections
9:27
Speaker 2: suggests because we put together rosters that our systems inherently
9:31
Speaker 2: really love. And that is one of the challenges of
9:33
Speaker 2: making trades ran and I don't know if this applies
9:35
Speaker 2: to the NBA, is by and large you always like
9:38
Speaker 2: your players more than the industry does like your players,
9:41
Speaker 2: and so you lose a touch of objectivity. A longtime
9:45
Speaker 2: scout named Don Welke unfortunately passed away, but was a
9:48
Speaker 2: mentor of mine. He always said, the biggest measure of
9:51
Speaker 2: the value of players what the rest of the league
9:54
Speaker 2: will tell you he's worth, not necessarily what your staff
9:57
Speaker 2: will tell you it's worth. I don't know is that
9:59
Speaker 2: applicable as well in the NBA ryan where you tend
10:01
Speaker 2: to fall in love with your own players because you're
10:03
Speaker 2: using your own models to acquire those players.
10:06
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that especially with the younger players, the prospects, the
10:10
Speaker 1: guys you drafted either this year over the past couple
10:12
Speaker 1: of years. Maybe they haven't panned out yet. But we
10:16
Speaker 1: tell this to players all the time, especially young guys
10:18
Speaker 1: who may have some issues, may get frustrated that they're
10:21
Speaker 1: not getting the opportunity or role that they thought they
10:23
Speaker 1: would have. That is, nobody's going to love you like
10:26
Speaker 1: your parents do right as a child. Nobody's going to
10:29
Speaker 1: love you from an organizational perspective as much as the
10:31
Speaker 1: team that drafts you and develops you and puts the
10:34
Speaker 1: time into that. So yeah, one of the challenges with
10:36
Speaker 1: making trades, especially if you're looking at young prospects, is
10:39
Speaker 1: if you asked all thirty NBA channel managers right now,
10:42
Speaker 1: they'll say, well, we like our young players. Well, you
10:44
Speaker 1: and I could sit there objectively and say, well, yeah,
10:47
Speaker 1: these couple teams should, but you know a handful of
10:49
Speaker 1: them they're decent, And then this grouping is these guys
10:51
Speaker 1: are terrible. They should not like their young players. But
10:53
Speaker 1: that's the reality of it. You know, we all overweight.
10:56
Speaker 1: So I think that's where objective external analysis comes in,
10:59
Speaker 1: that being able to look at it soberly. Because you're right,
11:02
Speaker 1: the value each of the thirty NBA teams puts on
11:05
Speaker 1: their own player, especially the young guys, is higher generally
11:08
Speaker 1: than the other twenty nine teams. And now that I
11:10
Speaker 1: want to get into negotiating strategy with you, and let's
11:13
Speaker 1: look at this two different ways. Let's start with a
11:15
Speaker 1: free agent negotiating strategy if you're a major league baseball
11:18
Speaker 1: general manager this time of year. You mentioned that Christmas
11:21
Speaker 1: can be a deadline of sorts that is important to
11:24
Speaker 1: certain players, but not all players. And then we have,
11:27
Speaker 1: obviously coming back with spring training in February. What are
11:30
Speaker 1: some of the different negotiating strategies and how did you
11:33
Speaker 1: weigh you know, when it's time to make an aggressive
11:35
Speaker 1: offer and try to close a deal, versus giving a
11:38
Speaker 1: guy a little more time to let a deal breathe
11:40
Speaker 1: see if the price comes down, and see if he
11:42
Speaker 1: comes back to you on your terms.
11:44
Speaker 2: I feel as if so much of professional sports is
11:47
Speaker 2: talent evaluation, and when we conventionally say that we think
11:50
Speaker 2: of looking at three starting pitchers and evaluating their fastball,
11:54
Speaker 2: their curveball, their ability to pitch deep into games. But
11:57
Speaker 2: for front office people, you're constantly evaluating the people negotiate with.
12:01
Speaker 2: So I would keep a book on every agent in
12:03
Speaker 2: the game, every other team's executive, so I would have
12:06
Speaker 2: an understanding of what their negotiation styles have been in
12:09
Speaker 2: the past. That that's not a perfect indicator of how
12:11
Speaker 2: they're going to behave in the future. But my goal
12:13
Speaker 2: was always to have the next negotiation be more smooth,
12:16
Speaker 2: more efficient than the last one, because my goal was
12:19
Speaker 2: always was to deliver a win win. You know, I
12:23
Speaker 2: was a big believer in Ron Shapiro was one of
12:25
Speaker 2: my mentors, and he wrote several books on how to
12:30
Speaker 2: negotiate effectively, but he was in the power of nice.
12:33
Speaker 2: He really stressed the value of the merits of listening
12:36
Speaker 2: and trying to deliver value to the other side, even
12:39
Speaker 2: sometimes when it doesn't have a lot of value to you.
12:42
Speaker 2: But the only way you can accomplish that, I think
12:44
Speaker 2: is really listening, trying to hear out what their needs are,
12:47
Speaker 2: and trying to deliver as best you can to them
12:49
Speaker 2: as possible. So some of the things I always employed
12:51
Speaker 2: when I negotiated. I always had a second person in
12:54
Speaker 2: the room when I was negotiating, and I did this
12:56
Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons. My goals were to be
12:59
Speaker 2: as accurate and comprehensive in my understanding of what the
13:02
Speaker 2: other side was seeking. Secondarily, I was trying to develop
13:05
Speaker 2: staff members. So if I had this wealth of experience
13:09
Speaker 2: of negotiating with people, I wanted to give other people
13:11
Speaker 2: exposure to that, maybe when they weren't on the hot
13:13
Speaker 2: seat of actually having to conduct that negotiation. So I
13:16
Speaker 2: asked them to sit and take notes. But more than
13:19
Speaker 2: that was I found that sometimes when you're involved in
13:21
Speaker 2: a negotiation, you're always teeing up your next counterpoint to
13:25
Speaker 2: what the person had said, so sometimes you may miss
13:27
Speaker 2: some subtleties. So I asked the person, hey, listen, listen
13:30
Speaker 2: for tones, listen for intonations. Sometimes you get off the
13:33
Speaker 2: phone and the person has said one thing, but maybe
13:36
Speaker 2: they meant something else, and so they may say, hey,
13:38
Speaker 2: we don't see a deal here. But maybe the second
13:41
Speaker 2: person who's listening says, well, wait, they paused before they
13:43
Speaker 2: said that. I bet you if we came back to
13:45
Speaker 2: them and delivered some of these things that we said
13:46
Speaker 2: we maybe couldn't deliver, but BOYD bring value to them,
13:49
Speaker 2: maybe they'd come back to the table and want to
13:52
Speaker 2: sign with us. So I think there was always value
13:54
Speaker 2: in staff development and bringing another set of ears into
13:57
Speaker 2: the room. But it was also to really enhance your
13:59
Speaker 2: chances of being accurate in those negotiations, So that was
14:03
Speaker 2: kind of where I started. I also was a person
14:05
Speaker 2: who I think a lot of people in negotiations are
14:09
Speaker 2: really reluctant to sharing any information. They view information as
14:13
Speaker 2: the currency of these negotiations. They want to acquire as
14:16
Speaker 2: much information. They want you to say as much as possible,
14:19
Speaker 2: but they don't want to yield anything. I kind of
14:21
Speaker 2: operated differently. My goal was to try to figure out
14:23
Speaker 2: ways to get deals done. So I always wanted to
14:26
Speaker 2: start from a place of we're operating in the band
14:29
Speaker 2: of fair. If you accepted the deal that I presented
14:31
Speaker 2: at the outset, you wouldn't be embarrassed. No one would
14:34
Speaker 2: be saying this was one of the worst deals of
14:36
Speaker 2: all time. No one's losing their jobs over it. It
14:38
Speaker 2: was a fair deal. Ultimately, it would probably be on
14:40
Speaker 2: the club side of fair to start with, admittedly, but
14:43
Speaker 2: I never tried to make an offer that if you accepted,
14:46
Speaker 2: you would be embarrassed or humiliated. And I think a
14:48
Speaker 2: lot of people errantly negotiate against the backdrop of well,
14:51
Speaker 2: it didn't hurt for me to ask, And I always
14:53
Speaker 2: said to them, what doesn't hurt is provided that you
14:55
Speaker 2: don't care about your integrity, because it did hurt your
14:58
Speaker 2: integrity with me. Now in the future, when I negotiate
15:00
Speaker 2: with you, I'm going to take into consideration that you're
15:03
Speaker 2: going to take one shot at totally taking advantage of me.
15:05
Speaker 2: And I don't know how you felt in negotiations, Ryan,
15:07
Speaker 2: I never wanted to be that guy, neither on on
15:10
Speaker 2: either end of it. I didn't want to be the
15:12
Speaker 2: person ever known for taking advantage of people, but I
15:14
Speaker 2: certainly didn't want to be taken advantage of in the negotiation.
15:17
Speaker 2: It would alter how I handled conversations with that person
15:20
Speaker 2: in the future.
15:22
Speaker 1: No question about it. It also alters how much information
15:25
Speaker 1: or how little information you share. If you feel like
15:27
Speaker 1: the person on the other end is just fishing, they're
15:29
Speaker 1: on a fishing expedition, They're not serious about doing a
15:32
Speaker 1: deal unless it's the proverbial deal that no one would
15:36
Speaker 1: do from your side and everyone would do from their site.
15:38
Speaker 1: You know, it's that unbalanced and yes, so that was
15:40
Speaker 1: a great lesson for me as a young executive. You know,
15:43
Speaker 1: some guys on the staff in Boston would say, well,
15:46
Speaker 1: we have to call this so you never know what
15:47
Speaker 1: the other team's going to say, and Danny Aing's obviously
15:49
Speaker 1: one of the best executives in all the sports, would say, yes,
15:52
Speaker 1: we don't, we don't need to call that in. In fact,
15:54
Speaker 1: I'm not going to call it in. I would so
15:56
Speaker 1: if you want to call it in just to have
15:58
Speaker 1: them say no, you can do that, that's fine, but
16:00
Speaker 1: I would not recommend that because we know what they're
16:01
Speaker 1: going to say and you're trying to embarrass somebody. So
16:03
Speaker 1: that always stuck with me, and one of the things
16:06
Speaker 1: I tried to do that was be pretty direct in
16:09
Speaker 1: terms of, hey, here's what we're looking to do, here's
16:11
Speaker 1: what we're interested in. As you mentioned, everybody has different styles.
16:14
Speaker 1: I got a little bit frustrated by the guys who
16:16
Speaker 1: were somewhat cryptic, you know, speaking general generalities and wouldn't
16:20
Speaker 1: directly answer, hey, here's our roster, who do you like
16:23
Speaker 1: or do you like this guy? Yes or no. You're
16:24
Speaker 1: not going to offend me if you say, now we
16:26
Speaker 1: don't like that guy, he's not for us, or if
16:28
Speaker 1: you say, we really like that guy, we'll look at
16:30
Speaker 1: it more and see if there's a deal to be had.
16:32
Speaker 1: So I always think that directness was helpful, and I
16:35
Speaker 1: completely agree with what you said. People who didn't share
16:38
Speaker 1: a whole lot it was like, well, is this just
16:41
Speaker 1: them kind of checking the box or trying to gather
16:43
Speaker 1: information to go back to their group to you know,
16:45
Speaker 1: gossip about it. Those were the guys who, frankly, when
16:48
Speaker 1: there are twenty nine other teams to deal with, their
16:50
Speaker 1: calls get returned later, right, and if you see them
16:53
Speaker 1: their number pop up on color ID, may not answer
16:55
Speaker 1: it because you know, again, your reputations everything in terms
16:58
Speaker 1: of these negotiations. So the guys who were honest direct said, hey,
17:02
Speaker 1: here's what we're looking to do. You know, if it
17:04
Speaker 1: made sense, we jump on it. If not, you know,
17:07
Speaker 1: I tried to give them a quick lean anyway. If
17:09
Speaker 1: not a direct answer, hey that's you know, maybe there's
17:11
Speaker 1: something there, or yeah, now we're not you know, we're
17:13
Speaker 1: not going to waste your time. Because that's another thing
17:15
Speaker 1: that some of these teams do. Unfortunately, it's try to
17:19
Speaker 1: almost run out the clock sometimes, especially if you're a
17:21
Speaker 1: competitor when they don't have anything. We've seen this on
17:23
Speaker 1: draft night, guys would call about a trade. We said, now,
17:26
Speaker 1: we're not going to do that, and they said, well,
17:28
Speaker 1: who are you taking or can we stay on the
17:29
Speaker 1: phone until you pick? Said no, we're not no. Sorry,
17:32
Speaker 1: you know, we said there's no deal. We're going to
17:35
Speaker 1: kind of move on from this and focus on our business.
17:37
Speaker 1: You know, unless you call back with something better, there's
17:39
Speaker 1: nothing to discuss. So let's now let's get into you
17:43
Speaker 1: mentioned the agent negotiation strategy on the team negotiation strategy
17:47
Speaker 1: with specific teams and individuals. I don't know how general
17:51
Speaker 1: or specific you want to be talking about guys or franchises,
17:53
Speaker 1: but from your vast experience in MLB, what was that like?
17:57
Speaker 1: What was maybe a little bit different this time because
18:01
Speaker 1: unlike a player and an agent who could just sign
18:03
Speaker 1: at any time and if you have the money, you
18:04
Speaker 1: can you can go pay them a team you know
18:07
Speaker 1: obviously had there are multiple parties that have to agree.
18:10
Speaker 1: President GM probably the owner needs to be on board there.
18:13
Speaker 1: I think you know a lot of people don't realize
18:14
Speaker 1: how many people in most sports have to sign off
18:16
Speaker 1: on a decision, especially a big decision in Major League
18:19
Speaker 1: Baseball or NBA. So if you could take us inside
18:21
Speaker 1: that as well, what are the conversations like with the
18:24
Speaker 1: other twenty nine teams this time of year when you're
18:26
Speaker 1: working at MLB?
18:27
Speaker 2: Well, right, I think you just sit on a lot
18:29
Speaker 2: of profiles, and those persist all through baseball where you know,
18:34
Speaker 2: you know, we are fundamentally pursuing the best players we
18:37
Speaker 2: can to try to improve our team. That said, when
18:39
Speaker 2: you have two teams that have players that are comparable,
18:43
Speaker 2: you are calling the guy who is more straightforward with you,
18:46
Speaker 2: who is more likely to get a deal done and
18:48
Speaker 2: not make it such an arduous, you know, kind of
18:50
Speaker 2: tooth pulling process. And so I think there's a lot
18:53
Speaker 2: of different profiles in Major League Baseball. I'll name a
18:56
Speaker 2: few people without disparaging them. But you know you have
19:00
Speaker 2: the person who is the low anchor person, the person
19:02
Speaker 2: who calls you, expresses interest in your player and then
19:06
Speaker 2: proceeds to take the next five minutes totally destroying the
19:09
Speaker 2: value of your player. And you're like, wait a minute,
19:11
Speaker 2: didn't you call on my guy like, if you don't like.
19:13
Speaker 1: Him, you don't have to pursue him.
19:14
Speaker 2: But it's almost like he immediately says, I have interests,
19:17
Speaker 2: but I now want to do a Jedi mind trick
19:20
Speaker 2: on you that you should ask for much less because
19:22
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you all about his flaws. I
19:25
Speaker 2: usually would tune that out and just write down a
19:28
Speaker 2: note that this person has more interest than what they're expressing,
19:31
Speaker 2: but we're also probably not getting a deal done with
19:33
Speaker 2: this type of person. I never succumb to the notion
19:37
Speaker 2: of like the low anchor, where they make you a
19:39
Speaker 2: ridiculously low ball offer and then just expect you not
19:42
Speaker 2: to accept that, but that you're going to eventually accept
19:45
Speaker 2: something far below what you thought. I think that takes
19:48
Speaker 2: into account that I'm a big dummy, and I never
19:50
Speaker 2: aspired to be a big dummy. I also felt as
19:53
Speaker 2: if not to bring in like a carp carpentry is saying,
19:57
Speaker 2: but I think it's important to have people around you
19:59
Speaker 2: to make sure you know. The old adage is measure twice,
20:02
Speaker 2: cut once, and I think you need to people around
20:04
Speaker 2: you to make sure you're not just not measuring at
20:06
Speaker 2: all and you're diving into a deal. Usually those are
20:09
Speaker 2: the types of deals where we think, in the moment,
20:11
Speaker 2: this is a quote no brainer, and I think those
20:14
Speaker 2: are traps. You know, there's no such thing as a
20:16
Speaker 2: no brainer, because if it's a no brainer, you're implying
20:19
Speaker 2: that the other person is relatively incompetent in what they're doing.
20:22
Speaker 2: I've always found if it's a no brainer, make sure
20:25
Speaker 2: it's not a no brainer, because it's so lopsided against you.
20:28
Speaker 2: Maybe we're missing something dramatic. So that's a scenario where
20:31
Speaker 2: you're risking not measuring at all and just starting to cut.
20:34
Speaker 2: You need to have people in your inner circle who say, WHOA, WHOA,
20:37
Speaker 2: we need to think about this. If it's a no brainer,
20:40
Speaker 2: maybe we're miscalculating who's going to fall apart on this one.
20:44
Speaker 2: Two is I think you should never measure more than
20:47
Speaker 2: like three times. If you're doing that, you've made a decision.
20:50
Speaker 1: You've passed.
20:51
Speaker 2: Now go spend your time more productively on something else.
20:53
Speaker 2: If you just don't feel the deal is right, it's
20:56
Speaker 2: okay to say you're not doing it, But I think
20:58
Speaker 2: continuing to be labor the point and spending a good
21:01
Speaker 2: time after bad is not a good way to spend
21:04
Speaker 2: your time focus on the next deal at hand. So
21:06
Speaker 2: I've always felt like you should be somewhere in between
21:08
Speaker 2: those two. But I'm going to talk about a few
21:10
Speaker 2: key negotiators, guys like you said, are there any old
21:13
Speaker 2: school guys still out there in baseball? And there are.
21:16
Speaker 2: Dave Dombrowski, who is the longtime general manager in the game,
21:20
Speaker 2: will be a Hall of Famer. He is now at
21:22
Speaker 2: the helm of the Philadelphia Affilies. He is a guy
21:25
Speaker 2: who calls you and tells you exactly who you he
21:27
Speaker 2: has interest in. Furthermore to that, he tells you exactly
21:30
Speaker 2: what he's prepared to trade to get them, and there's
21:33
Speaker 2: almost no deviation from that. It's not presented quite as
21:37
Speaker 2: a take it.
21:37
Speaker 1: Or leave it.
21:38
Speaker 2: There's probably like a little play in the deal, but
21:41
Speaker 2: there's not dramatic play. What we all want to do
21:43
Speaker 2: is to assume whatever someone's first offer is, they would
21:46
Speaker 2: either if they're trying to acquired, they would do a
21:48
Speaker 2: lot more, or if they're trying to sell, they do
21:50
Speaker 2: a lot less. In Dave's case, he's presenting to pretty
21:53
Speaker 2: close to eighty five to ninety five percent of what
21:55
Speaker 2: he's prepared to do. It's up to you to determine
21:57
Speaker 2: whether you would do it. So he was probably the
22:00
Speaker 2: most straightforward guy. AJ Preller, who's probably one of the
22:03
Speaker 2: most prolific traders in Major League Baseball, approaches things a
22:07
Speaker 2: little bit differently. If AJ reaches out to you, you
22:09
Speaker 2: know he has interest in his players, in your players.
22:12
Speaker 2: That is furthermore to having interest in your players. He
22:15
Speaker 2: will break down your farm system better than you can
22:17
Speaker 2: break down your farm system. He is undoubinitely going to
22:19
Speaker 2: bring up a player or two that you're scratching your
22:21
Speaker 2: head and you're wondering, who the heck is that guy
22:23
Speaker 2: that he just talked about. But he has prepped out
22:25
Speaker 2: your whole farm system. He knows exactly what he's prepared
22:28
Speaker 2: to do. But when he calls you, you're on the
22:30
Speaker 2: clock with him. If he is not calling you and
22:33
Speaker 2: you're having to call him, you're unlikely to get a
22:35
Speaker 2: deal done with him. But if he's on the phone
22:37
Speaker 2: with you, you've got a chance of getting a deal
22:39
Speaker 2: done because he's prioritizing your players above everybody else.
22:42
Speaker 1: Really interesting that one quick team, and then we'll get
22:45
Speaker 1: into the NBA trade season as well. The New York
22:48
Speaker 1: Mets to me as I evaluate the entire league, I
22:50
Speaker 1: think they're fascinating. Projected to have a good roster last
22:54
Speaker 1: year when close to one hundred games they underperformed. Take
22:57
Speaker 1: us inside the New York Mets. What this Steve Cohen,
23:00
Speaker 1: the owner and David Stearns the GM, what are they
23:03
Speaker 1: looking at this offseason?
23:05
Speaker 2: I think this is a fascinating team ran on so
23:08
Speaker 2: many fronts. So, as you mentioned, they end up finishing
23:10
Speaker 2: eighty three and seventy nine last year, effectively getting eliminated
23:13
Speaker 2: from the playoffs in the last day of the season.
23:15
Speaker 2: They actually had the same record as the Cincinnati Reds
23:18
Speaker 2: who got in, but they end up thirteen games behind
23:20
Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Phillies, which certainly was not where they were
23:23
Speaker 2: shooting for. As you referenced earlier, As we look at
23:26
Speaker 2: projections heading into this offseason, they're viewed as having the
23:30
Speaker 2: sixth best roster in the game and really interestingly behind
23:34
Speaker 2: only the Braves. In the analyst, they're tied effectively with
23:37
Speaker 2: the Phillies heading into the season, So they're projected to
23:39
Speaker 2: have about a forty four war roster, which, as we
23:42
Speaker 2: just discussed previously, maps to about a ninety two win season.
23:46
Speaker 2: But that's pretty exciting for them, except for the fact
23:48
Speaker 2: that they also were mapped to actually have a ninety
23:51
Speaker 2: four win season this year and only had eighty three wins.
23:53
Speaker 2: So let's take a look at what's going on with
23:55
Speaker 2: this roster and why maybe we should be taking the
23:58
Speaker 2: under on those ninety two wins as it's currently constituted,
24:02
Speaker 2: they are actively doing things.
24:04
Speaker 1: They signed a.
24:04
Speaker 2: Player today to add to their or their terms with
24:08
Speaker 2: Luke Weaver to build out their bullpens up. They're not
24:11
Speaker 2: done by any means, but as they're currently constituted, there
24:14
Speaker 2: are a few reasons why I would consider taking the
24:16
Speaker 2: under on them. If you look at their position player team,
24:18
Speaker 2: which is currently ranked second only behind the Los Angeles
24:21
Speaker 2: Dodgers in terms of sheer talent. Most of that talent
24:24
Speaker 2: is tied up in their top four players, and that's
24:28
Speaker 2: Wan Soto, who's one of the best players in the game,
24:30
Speaker 2: Francisco Lindor. Both those guys are projected to be in
24:33
Speaker 2: the top ten of position players in next year's entire
24:36
Speaker 2: major leagues. It's rounded out by their superstar young catcher Alvarez.
24:40
Speaker 2: They went out and got Marcus Semion as the second baseman,
24:43
Speaker 2: but those guys. Those four guys are accounting for close
24:46
Speaker 2: to fifty eight to sixty percent of their total war
24:49
Speaker 2: just as a quartet. It reminds me a little bit
24:52
Speaker 2: of what the Los Angeles Angels had been doing over
24:54
Speaker 2: the years, where Mike Trout, combinations of Otani, Rendon Vernon
24:59
Speaker 2: Wells were accounting for such a large percentage of their team,
25:02
Speaker 2: but they then complemented the rest of the team with
25:05
Speaker 2: what were like average to slightly below average players across
25:08
Speaker 2: the board. So one cost for concern for me is
25:10
Speaker 2: a real imbalance in the strength of their team, which
25:13
Speaker 2: is their position player unit. On the other side of
25:15
Speaker 2: the coin, their pitching is projected to be sixteenth best
25:18
Speaker 2: in the game, so that is concerning. So their teams
25:21
Speaker 2: getting to forty four war the offensive side is carrying
25:24
Speaker 2: the lion's share of that, so they're imbalanced in that regard,
25:27
Speaker 2: and then the offense itself is imbalanced. So I think
25:30
Speaker 2: they've got some work to do here now. The good news,
25:33
Speaker 2: such as it is, in terms of being a frontline payroll,
25:36
Speaker 2: last year they were the second highest payroll from a
25:38
Speaker 2: tax standpoint. Their payroll was about three hundred and forty
25:41
Speaker 2: one million, second only to the Dodgers, they paid close
25:44
Speaker 2: to one hundred million dollars eighty six million dollars in
25:47
Speaker 2: the tax. They were one hundred million dollars over the
25:49
Speaker 2: text right now they said at about two hundred ninety six
25:52
Speaker 2: and a half million, so by if they just stick
25:54
Speaker 2: with their last year payroll numbers, they would have forty
25:57
Speaker 2: four and a half million dollars left to spend. The
26:00
Speaker 2: needs seem to be very clear to me. It's pitching,
26:03
Speaker 2: and one of the things to consider here. David Sterns,
26:06
Speaker 2: who is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent
26:09
Speaker 2: pragmatic gms in the game, has always been reluctant to
26:12
Speaker 2: sign pitchers in their thirties to deals longer than three years.
26:15
Speaker 2: They've done a masterful job with reclamation projects with guys
26:18
Speaker 2: like Sean Manea, David Peterson, Clay Holmes, but they haven't
26:22
Speaker 2: necessarily invested in those frontline starters who demand frontline contracts.
26:28
Speaker 2: But will things change right now? I don't know the
26:30
Speaker 2: answer to that. Time is yet to be told. On
26:33
Speaker 2: that there are a number of starting pitchers out there
26:35
Speaker 2: that could certainly help the Mets, but for the reasons
26:37
Speaker 2: we just discussed the slight imbalance in their offense, and
26:41
Speaker 2: right now how much they're pitching lags behind their offense
26:44
Speaker 2: would lead me to take the under on those ninety
26:47
Speaker 2: two wins, which was exactly what happened this year when
26:49
Speaker 2: they were projected to win ninety four one to eighty three.
26:52
Speaker 2: But I think there's a lot of offseason left. David
26:55
Speaker 2: and his group is extremely intelligent. My guess is they're
26:57
Speaker 2: going to try to close those gaps. They could go
26:59
Speaker 2: out didn't really acquire anybody outside of those four positions,
27:02
Speaker 2: which is shortstop, right field, second base, and catcher.
27:06
Speaker 1: They could go cart.
27:08
Speaker 2: Anybody to help their team, and anybody in the starting
27:10
Speaker 2: rotation would help that team immensely realize the real their potential,
27:15
Speaker 2: which is being a playoff contending team and a force
27:18
Speaker 2: in October.
27:20
Speaker 1: Well, we know that in the New York market, with
27:22
Speaker 1: the wealthiest owner in Major League Baseball and Steve Cohen,
27:24
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure at that You and I
27:26
Speaker 1: know that the Mets can't afford to have a collapse
27:28
Speaker 1: next season like they did that last year when everything
27:31
Speaker 1: looked great and then they fell apart in September, missed
27:34
Speaker 1: the postseason. We're going to come back on the other
27:36
Speaker 1: side and get into the NBA trade season that just
27:39
Speaker 1: expertly broke down the MLB trade season. Coincidentally, the NBA
27:43
Speaker 1: trade season is going on right now as well. The
27:46
Speaker 1: NBA's aggregation deadline came and went what does that mean?
27:49
Speaker 1: We'll explain right after this stick with us fourth at Levine.
27:52
Speaker 1: I'm Ryan McDonald. We'll be back on the other side
27:54
Speaker 1: of rosters durings.
28:05
Speaker 2: Welcome back to rosterst rings alongside Ryan McDonough. I am
28:08
Speaker 2: Thad Levine. Ryan, we're putting you on the hot seat now.
28:11
Speaker 2: And you know one other topic I'd love to get
28:13
Speaker 2: your thoughts on down the line here is that I
28:15
Speaker 2: saw the Commissioner Silver also talked about the potential of
28:19
Speaker 2: expansion both domestic and international in the NBA.
28:22
Speaker 1: So add that toep to.
28:23
Speaker 2: The list of topics you brought up at the outset
28:25
Speaker 2: that we have to get to here in short order.
28:28
Speaker 2: But before we get there, I would like to get
28:30
Speaker 2: your perception what goes on in the front office in
28:33
Speaker 2: the NBA. How different how similar is it to some
28:36
Speaker 2: of the things that I portrayed in Major League Baseball.
28:38
Speaker 2: But take take the listener behind the scenes as you
28:41
Speaker 2: guys are entering trade season, which is going on right
28:44
Speaker 2: now in the NBA. What's going on in the front office.
28:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, the first couple of days of this week, THAD,
28:50
Speaker 1: December fifteenth and sixteenth were big days and the NBA.
28:53
Speaker 1: As I mentioned in last week's episode, December fifteenth was
28:57
Speaker 1: the date that a vast majority of players who signed
28:59
Speaker 1: is free just this past offseason were eligible to be traded.
29:03
Speaker 1: To keep an eye on potential deals anytime now between
29:06
Speaker 1: today and the trade deadline, which is on February fifth
29:09
Speaker 1: in the NBA, Tuesday December sixteenth was also an important DAYAD.
29:14
Speaker 1: That's what I reference before the break as far as
29:16
Speaker 1: the aggregation deadline, and what that means is players who
29:19
Speaker 1: were traded prior to that date could be aggregated or
29:23
Speaker 1: combined to use a different term with other players to
29:26
Speaker 1: make a bigger deal prior to the February trade deadline.
29:30
Speaker 1: And that's important because you think of last year FAD,
29:33
Speaker 1: the Golden State Warriors were underperforming to start the year.
29:37
Speaker 1: The Brooklyn Nets were playing a bunch of young players
29:39
Speaker 1: not necessarily trying to win as many games as possible,
29:42
Speaker 1: So on the aggregation deadline day last year, the Golden
29:45
Speaker 1: State Warriors went out and got Dennis Shreuder, a solid
29:47
Speaker 1: point guard. He's been a starter, he's been a backup
29:50
Speaker 1: in his career. He played okay in Golden State. This
29:53
Speaker 1: team was still underperforming. But then at the deadline fad
29:56
Speaker 1: they used Dennis Shrewders contracted Golden State. They ailed up
30:00
Speaker 1: the money and as you know, the salary matching rules
30:02
Speaker 1: are very important in the NBA. So the you Shrewders contract,
30:06
Speaker 1: who was making think about fifteen million on an expiring deal,
30:08
Speaker 1: stacked that with some other contracts. Keep in mind Jimmy
30:11
Speaker 1: Butler is a max player on the Miami Heat. And
30:13
Speaker 1: then they made a bigger deal. So Shrewter was only
30:16
Speaker 1: passing through Golden State. That I hope he rented and
30:19
Speaker 1: didn't buy a place in the less than two months
30:21
Speaker 1: he was in San Francisco, but he was rerouted and
30:23
Speaker 1: that was a bigger deal. And Van Tract Shooter eventually
30:26
Speaker 1: ended up in Detroit in a multi team deal. So
30:29
Speaker 1: there weren't any blockbuster deals on Tuesday, or even minor
30:32
Speaker 1: deals that would pour ten bigger deals down the road.
30:35
Speaker 1: But that's it. So now we're well into the trade window.
30:39
Speaker 1: The only players who are not eligible to be traded
30:41
Speaker 1: at that were guys who re signed with their current
30:43
Speaker 1: team this offseason and got a greater than twenty percent raise.
30:47
Speaker 1: It's a little bit complex, but I just bring it
30:49
Speaker 1: up because talking about Golden State, Jonathan Kaming is a
30:52
Speaker 1: guy you're going to hear a lot about in the
30:53
Speaker 1: trade market. As the group in Golden State, led by
30:56
Speaker 1: Joe Lake of the owner and Mike Dunleaby, the GM
30:59
Speaker 1: try to do whatever they can to give the best
31:01
Speaker 1: shooter in NBA history, Stephen Curry and the Hall of
31:04
Speaker 1: Famer Draymond Green and the other Hall of Famer Jimmy Butler,
31:06
Speaker 1: maybe one more chance to win that. So keep an
31:08
Speaker 1: eye on Golden State. But keep in mind Jonathan Kmendi
31:11
Speaker 1: his trade windows pretty tight this year that he could
31:13
Speaker 1: only be traded between January fifteenth and the trade deadline,
31:16
Speaker 1: which is a three pm on February fifth.
31:19
Speaker 2: And that's fascinating, right because that's a team that you
31:22
Speaker 2: have to have on your watch list because they seem
31:25
Speaker 2: to be needing to push chips in the roster is
31:29
Speaker 2: currently constituted, seems to have a few holes, but also
31:31
Speaker 2: they have the aging core there which has somehow continued
31:35
Speaker 2: to eke out for competitive seasons year after year, but
31:39
Speaker 2: maybe that window is starting to close. And I'm just
31:41
Speaker 2: curious as we shift the conversation here, what tools are
31:44
Speaker 2: you guys using to evaluate talent and assess kind of
31:47
Speaker 2: where the team is and where their needs are and
31:49
Speaker 2: how they're going to approach other teams.
31:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, similar to MLB, there are a number of different
31:55
Speaker 1: tools at your disposal during the season. The first is
31:58
Speaker 1: in person scouting. You have youruators going out watching other
32:01
Speaker 1: NBA teams in person. A lot of that is for
32:04
Speaker 1: intel and information gathering. That especially with some of the
32:07
Speaker 1: veterans who are maybe more established as far as what
32:10
Speaker 1: they can do as a player. But you know, nobody's
32:12
Speaker 1: calling you on your couch saying, hey, this guy's completely healthy,
32:16
Speaker 1: or he's really beat up, or you know he's doing
32:19
Speaker 1: great in the locker room, his leadership and mentorship has
32:21
Speaker 1: been fantastic, or the opposite of that. Right, you have
32:23
Speaker 1: to go get that information. You have to find it yourself.
32:26
Speaker 1: Nobody is bringing it to you as a franchise. You're
32:28
Speaker 1: also combining that with the video scouting. We've talked about
32:31
Speaker 1: the sophistication of video tools, including recently we met John D.
32:35
Speaker 1: Filippo on talking about you know how you can go
32:37
Speaker 1: on your computer and watch a breakdown of just about
32:39
Speaker 1: any player in any game in any different situation. I
32:43
Speaker 1: think that's common now across football, baseball, and in the NBA.
32:47
Speaker 1: You have a ton of information with that. So you're
32:50
Speaker 1: doing those couple of things, and then you know you're
32:52
Speaker 1: compiling medical information. That one's a little bit trickier because
32:55
Speaker 1: you have the hippo laws, the medical privacy laws, and
32:58
Speaker 1: teams are very guarded with that, especially as a negative,
33:01
Speaker 1: because one, they don't want you to know if their
33:02
Speaker 1: players quote unquote damage goods. Two that they really don't
33:06
Speaker 1: want to get sued if that information got out there.
33:08
Speaker 1: You know, that would be disastrous to the team and
33:10
Speaker 1: the player and impact not only his current market but
33:12
Speaker 1: maybe his future market as a free agent in trades
33:15
Speaker 1: and all that. So you're doing all that, and then
33:17
Speaker 1: one of the things that's a little bit delicate that
33:20
Speaker 1: because your roster's still playing, the games are still going on,
33:23
Speaker 1: is how much time do you spend discussing potential deals
33:26
Speaker 1: and players you may be able to acquire with your
33:29
Speaker 1: coaching staff, especially your head coach. You know, certain coaches
33:32
Speaker 1: are more involved than others in the NBA, as you
33:35
Speaker 1: can imagine, it's probably the same in MLB. Coaches are
33:38
Speaker 1: more involved in terms of trades and free agent signings
33:41
Speaker 1: with players they know versus looking at the draft because
33:43
Speaker 1: they don't you generally have time to watch a bunch
33:45
Speaker 1: of college basketball or guys overseas. But you know, if
33:48
Speaker 1: they're coaching NBA and watching NBA games every night and
33:51
Speaker 1: have been doing that for years or decades, they're generally
33:53
Speaker 1: pretty familiar with the NBA personnel and have some strong
33:56
Speaker 1: opinions and maybe you know, able to get some intel
33:58
Speaker 1: and information you're not as easy, easily able to gather
34:02
Speaker 1: as a front office. So that's it. That and and
34:03
Speaker 1: the final step in the NBA, and this is, you know,
34:06
Speaker 1: something a little bit. It's always been done, but I
34:08
Speaker 1: think there's a little more emphasis on it now in
34:10
Speaker 1: the player empowerment error era. Excuse me. That's that is
34:14
Speaker 1: going to your players, especially your best players, your stars,
34:17
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, if we could get this guy, you know,
34:19
Speaker 1: what do you think? What do you think of this player?
34:21
Speaker 1: Or what do we need? Is there a type of
34:23
Speaker 1: player we need? You know, the franchises usually give players
34:27
Speaker 1: that level of ownership, especially if they're an all time
34:29
Speaker 1: great player. So you'd have to imagine that, you know,
34:32
Speaker 1: Rob Polinka with Lakers is doing something, he's running it
34:35
Speaker 1: by probably Lebron James and Luka Donsich. I just mentioned
34:37
Speaker 1: Mike dun leeby junior in Golden State. I'd be surprised
34:40
Speaker 1: if he does anything without at least running it past
34:42
Speaker 1: Steph Curry, maybe Draymond Green, Steve Kerr. So that's it.
34:46
Speaker 1: That But that's a that's a balance obviously, because you
34:48
Speaker 1: don't want to float anything out there if you're not
34:51
Speaker 1: likely to be able to do it. So when do
34:53
Speaker 1: you go to your player star players? When do you
34:54
Speaker 1: go to your head coach to get their opinion? I
34:56
Speaker 1: think each team looks at that a little bit differently,
34:59
Speaker 1: you know, right.
34:59
Speaker 2: I think that's a really intriguing point you just brought
35:02
Speaker 2: up there, because it's a really delicate process. I found
35:05
Speaker 2: in my career. One of the challenges approaching your senior
35:08
Speaker 2: leadership and asking those questions or maybe it's a player
35:10
Speaker 2: who played with that player in the past and you
35:12
Speaker 2: want to get some information, is players don't tend to
35:15
Speaker 2: be perfectly objective, not necessarily about how they assess the players,
35:19
Speaker 2: which they may have some lack of objectivity there, but
35:23
Speaker 2: more about how you make decisions. But what I have
35:25
Speaker 2: found is I've made some mistakes in my past when
35:28
Speaker 2: I asked a player, what do you think of that guy?
35:29
Speaker 2: And then maybe we don't go acquire that player even
35:32
Speaker 2: though he wanted us to do it. They don't realize
35:34
Speaker 2: that we're talking to eight to ten other people and
35:37
Speaker 2: getting their opinions as well. They just think whetherever you
35:39
Speaker 2: ask them, you're going to go do it, and then
35:41
Speaker 2: they feel disenfranchised. So I don't know if you had
35:44
Speaker 2: a way to approach it, but I think I was
35:46
Speaker 2: all naive in the front end of my career that
35:48
Speaker 2: you could just ask them and have them be one
35:50
Speaker 2: of the resources. Instead, what I found to be more
35:52
Speaker 2: successful in the future is really explaining to them this
35:55
Speaker 2: is the process of how we're going to make the decision,
35:57
Speaker 2: this is how you fit into it.
35:58
Speaker 1: Are you comfortable and if.
36:01
Speaker 2: You are understanding that, we may or may not go
36:03
Speaker 2: with your decision, but we will hear you out and
36:05
Speaker 2: we are going to factor in what you have to say.
36:07
Speaker 2: But we're not necessarily taking it as a gospel and
36:09
Speaker 2: absolutely doing everything you direct us to do.
36:13
Speaker 1: That's a great point that because you never want something
36:15
Speaker 1: that should be a positive a front office going to
36:18
Speaker 1: a player and asking his opinion to turn into a
36:20
Speaker 1: negative thing because the player thinks you're just doing it
36:22
Speaker 1: to appease them and you weren't really listening to what
36:24
Speaker 1: they said. Anyways. I think you know, most current players obviously,
36:27
Speaker 1: if they've never been executives, they don't realize how hard
36:29
Speaker 1: some of these deals are to finalize and how many
36:32
Speaker 1: different parties need to be involved and sign off on
36:34
Speaker 1: it and all that needs to go right for a
36:36
Speaker 1: deal to get consummated. And then the other point I
36:38
Speaker 1: make that is, I think all of us and our
36:40
Speaker 1: listeners have people that we really enjoy being around, hanging
36:43
Speaker 1: out with, socially, whatever. Doesn't necessarily mean they'd be great
36:46
Speaker 1: co workers to work with us. So we've seen that
36:48
Speaker 1: happen too, where players are you know, kind of cool,
36:51
Speaker 1: somebody is their buddy from they played au ball together,
36:53
Speaker 1: high school ball, or you know, just have a good relationship,
36:56
Speaker 1: and then when the player comes to your franchise and
36:58
Speaker 1: if he is actually on your team, I said well,
37:00
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I didn't realize my role would be
37:02
Speaker 1: impacted like this, and now that ends leads to some
37:05
Speaker 1: tension and some friction. So those are things you have
37:08
Speaker 1: to factor in as an executive. I want to think
37:10
Speaker 1: that that I should mention because it's going on right now,
37:14
Speaker 1: and this is a little bit unusual, but right before
37:16
Speaker 1: Christmas in the NBA, there is the G League Winter
37:19
Speaker 1: Showcase that begins on Friday in Orlando, and what that
37:22
Speaker 1: means is all thirty teams will be in attendance. So
37:25
Speaker 1: in addition to doing their own internal evaluation and having
37:28
Speaker 1: conversations just among the team itself, they're meeting with and
37:32
Speaker 1: interacting with the other twenty nine teams down there. As
37:35
Speaker 1: you know. I guess similar in MLB, a lot of
37:37
Speaker 1: that is done by the phone. Sometimes it's done by
37:39
Speaker 1: the phone even if the groups are in the same
37:40
Speaker 1: hotel or in close proximity. But this is a way
37:43
Speaker 1: to you know, maybe peel somebody off to the side.
37:45
Speaker 1: You meet in a hotel suite and say, hey, look,
37:47
Speaker 1: let's talk about this. Here's what we're looking to do,
37:50
Speaker 1: or you know, what are you guys looking to do,
37:52
Speaker 1: and they'll be you know, maybe not any deals directly
37:54
Speaker 1: they come out of it that, but there'll be a
37:55
Speaker 1: lot of information gathered about what the other twenty nine
37:58
Speaker 1: teams are doing that when the executive go back home
38:01
Speaker 1: just before Christmas, they'll have a pretty good feel, or
38:03
Speaker 1: they should have a pretty good feel what the other
38:05
Speaker 1: twenty nine teams are looking at as we approach the
38:07
Speaker 1: trade deadline.
38:09
Speaker 2: Ryan, one thing that always comes back to me is
38:12
Speaker 2: Greg Anthony's evergreen commentary head which is, I think from
38:15
Speaker 2: an executive standpoint, we are really focused on adding talent
38:18
Speaker 2: to our clubhouse, our locker room. Whereas he was saying,
38:22
Speaker 2: is one of the star players on the team, He's
38:23
Speaker 2: looking as to how the player fits in culturally and
38:27
Speaker 2: from a scheme standpoint, And I think that's great perspective
38:30
Speaker 2: to understand and the balancing of it's not just a
38:33
Speaker 2: matter of acquiring talent, it's acquiring talent that fits within
38:36
Speaker 2: your scheme, will enhance your scheme and potentially also enhance
38:39
Speaker 2: your culture. So I'd love to hear Ryan Moore and
38:42
Speaker 2: you tease us a little bit in the first segment,
38:44
Speaker 2: but what was your negotiation style, Like how did you
38:46
Speaker 2: approach other teams other agents along the way, How did
38:50
Speaker 2: you characterize what was your standing report on you as
38:52
Speaker 2: a negotiator.
38:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tried to be pretty direct that I also
38:57
Speaker 1: enjoy the conversational aspects of it. I had a hard
39:01
Speaker 1: time with the guys who were more maybe c I
39:03
Speaker 1: a like who didn't want to share anything, you know,
39:05
Speaker 1: one word answers a lot of silence. You know, I
39:08
Speaker 1: figured we had a lot to do, so let's get
39:10
Speaker 1: right to the point about you know, why we're why
39:12
Speaker 1: we're here, and you know, keep it keep it light,
39:14
Speaker 1: but also keep it moving in terms of, you know,
39:16
Speaker 1: we're interested in these guys. I always thought that the
39:19
Speaker 1: second best answer to yes, like that, would you do
39:22
Speaker 1: this deal? Yeah? Or you know, we'll take a look
39:23
Speaker 1: at it was a quick note, you know, because the
39:25
Speaker 1: ones that frustrateed me were the ones that kind of
39:28
Speaker 1: keep you on the line. Oh, we'll put it up
39:29
Speaker 1: on our board, we'll talk about it. You know, some
39:31
Speaker 1: of the cliche answers we get in pro sports were
39:34
Speaker 1: it's something that you can't completely eliminate, but in your mind,
39:37
Speaker 1: you're saying, well, this is not likely to get consummated.
39:39
Speaker 1: Just give me a direct answer, or do you think
39:41
Speaker 1: there's something here or not, so we If not, we'll
39:43
Speaker 1: move on. That's fine. But you know, you never wanted
39:45
Speaker 1: to leave anybody twisting in the wind, and I tried
39:48
Speaker 1: not to do that as an executive, and then with
39:51
Speaker 1: the agents in the NBA, frankly, I mean, those guys
39:53
Speaker 1: do have a lot of power, a lot of control.
39:56
Speaker 1: You know. One of the challenges is trying to gauge
39:58
Speaker 1: if we make an aggressive trade to bring a player
40:00
Speaker 1: into our franchise. In particular, you know, keep in mind, Fad,
40:03
Speaker 1: that's the thing that the veteran players do not control.
40:06
Speaker 1: Right they sign a contract, they can control where they
40:08
Speaker 1: sign as a free agent. They do not control who
40:10
Speaker 1: they get traded to. So one of the challenges in
40:13
Speaker 1: the NBA is if you're going to be aggressive and push,
40:15
Speaker 1: especially talented young prospects, draft picks a lot of chips
40:18
Speaker 1: into the center of the table. The last thing you'd
40:20
Speaker 1: want to do is ac chore a guy and then
40:22
Speaker 1: have him be unhappy and say I don't like it here.
40:25
Speaker 1: Some teams have done that. In fact, I got some
40:28
Speaker 1: attention this week when you know the quotes came out
40:31
Speaker 1: about I think, as Fred van Vlief said about Kawhi
40:33
Speaker 1: Leonard that Kawi came in Toronto after he got traded
40:37
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen from the Spurs to the Raptors and said,
40:40
Speaker 1: I don't know why they traded for him not going
40:42
Speaker 1: to be here. Well, that was the exception of the
40:43
Speaker 1: rule that because Kawhi was so good and the Raptors
40:45
Speaker 1: won their first and only championship in franchise history. I
40:48
Speaker 1: think Messaiu, Jerry and Bobby Webster, the guys who did
40:51
Speaker 1: that deal in Toronto, would absolutely do it again because
40:53
Speaker 1: they have a championship. But there are other times that
40:56
Speaker 1: where it hasn't nearly worked out as well, where a
40:58
Speaker 1: player you know, pretty quickly says, look, I don't know
41:00
Speaker 1: why you guys did this. I was either happier in
41:03
Speaker 1: my previous spot or I want to go here, And
41:05
Speaker 1: then you're dealing from a position of weakness. Right going forward,
41:08
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to get the best performance out
41:10
Speaker 1: of the player. Yeah, it would be embarrassing to retrade
41:12
Speaker 1: the player, and then you'd get probably pennies on the
41:14
Speaker 1: dollar given what you just give up to get them.
41:16
Speaker 1: So that's where you know the conversations. You have to
41:19
Speaker 1: be a little bit careful about it. But with the agents,
41:21
Speaker 1: and then really your pro personnel team and department trying
41:24
Speaker 1: to gather as much information as they can. I think
41:27
Speaker 1: that's extremely important in the NBA, especially if you're going
41:30
Speaker 1: to make a super aggressive move.
41:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes that all makes perfect sense. I'm also
41:37
Speaker 2: HARKing up what you said there, Ryan about how the
41:39
Speaker 2: next best thing to a yes is a no. I
41:41
Speaker 2: don't know if you would attest to the same, but
41:43
Speaker 2: I just found the vast majority of the negotiation, so
41:46
Speaker 2: whether it was an agent about a free agent or
41:48
Speaker 2: a team about a trade, at some point the other side,
41:50
Speaker 2: especially those people as you reference to, were kind of
41:53
Speaker 2: operating in the CIA mode. They would at some point say, well,
41:58
Speaker 2: there's nothing for us to talk about here, no more negotiation.
42:01
Speaker 2: I always found that's when I dug my heels in,
42:04
Speaker 2: and so often the deals that I got done, I
42:06
Speaker 2: actually had to negotiate both sides at some point I
42:08
Speaker 2: had to bring them back to the table. But I
42:10
Speaker 2: think those CIA negotiators believe that they're not going to
42:13
Speaker 2: get the best offer from you until they demonstrate to
42:15
Speaker 2: you that they're willing to walk away from the table.
42:18
Speaker 2: I never took that as the impetus for me to
42:20
Speaker 2: offer more, but rather to try to bring them back
42:22
Speaker 2: to the table and see if we could get them
42:24
Speaker 2: talking about something else.
42:26
Speaker 1: But ran.
42:26
Speaker 2: One of the things that I've always found so fascinating
42:28
Speaker 2: about the NBA, I wish Major League Baseball could do
42:30
Speaker 2: this is the ability to trade draft picks. And I
42:33
Speaker 2: just would like share a little bit of strategy behind this.
42:35
Speaker 2: When was that most prevalent, and what were the restrictions
42:39
Speaker 2: behind that, And what was your strategy in terms of
42:42
Speaker 2: when you would include high draft picks and when you
42:44
Speaker 2: were trying to acquire them. What type of talent were
42:46
Speaker 2: you looking for in exchange.
42:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, a number of good questions there that and like
42:51
Speaker 1: a lot of things, this goes in cycles and waves
42:54
Speaker 1: in the NBA. In twenty thirteen, I had just left
42:57
Speaker 1: the Celtics front office. I was the job about a
43:00
Speaker 1: month at GM of the Phoenix Suns and the Boston Celtics,
43:03
Speaker 1: led by Danny Ainge, traded a couple Hall of famers
43:06
Speaker 1: and Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce, along with Jason Terry
43:08
Speaker 1: to the Brooklyn Nets. They got a bunch of draft
43:11
Speaker 1: picks and swap rights and things back. The Brooklyn Nets
43:14
Speaker 1: looked like a super team on paper, thad, but they
43:16
Speaker 1: were old and underperforming, some similarities to this year's a
43:20
Speaker 1: Clippers team. In fact, Brooklyn at that point had a
43:22
Speaker 1: much better record than the Clippers team did. But but
43:24
Speaker 1: I bring that up that because the Celtics led by
43:26
Speaker 1: Angels brilliance, they really reaped the benefit of that for years.
43:29
Speaker 1: Those three picks essentially turned into Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown,
43:33
Speaker 1: and Kyrie Irving. And so I bring it up that
43:35
Speaker 1: way because after that there was a period of time
43:38
Speaker 1: where it was very difficult to trade four first round picks,
43:42
Speaker 1: especially unprotected first round picks, which obviously theoretically could be
43:45
Speaker 1: the number one pick in the draft. And then that
43:48
Speaker 1: all changed again that you know, it goes again, It
43:50
Speaker 1: goes in waves and cycles. In twenty nineteen when the
43:54
Speaker 1: La Clippers, I'm not trying to pick on them, but
43:56
Speaker 1: they did what they did to get Kawhi Leonard, who said, well,
43:59
Speaker 1: I'll signed with you guys if you can go get
44:01
Speaker 1: Paul George from the okac Thunder and the Thunder and
44:03
Speaker 1: not want to trade Paul George. So basically the Clippers
44:06
Speaker 1: made a godfather offer to the Oklahoma City Thunder because
44:10
Speaker 1: in their minds that they were getting two players, two
44:12
Speaker 1: stars and Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. So they put
44:15
Speaker 1: shape builds of Alexander, a bunch of draft picks, a
44:17
Speaker 1: bunch of swaps into OKC. Sam Prestian company obviously took
44:21
Speaker 1: their lumps in OKAC. In the short term, Clippers look
44:24
Speaker 1: like a legitimate championship contender, and we know that how
44:27
Speaker 1: the scales have shifted since then. OKAC is the potential dynasty.
44:31
Speaker 1: The Clippers are a complete mess. OKAC still has their
44:34
Speaker 1: first round pick, So for me, it's it's something where
44:38
Speaker 1: the short term draft picks are a lot easier engaged
44:41
Speaker 1: than long term. Right Like, if we were talking to
44:44
Speaker 1: an NBA team right now, then they'll know or have
44:47
Speaker 1: a good feel for who's going to be in the
44:48
Speaker 1: twenty twenty sixth draft. This is a historically good draft,
44:51
Speaker 1: so picks at the top of this draft really are
44:53
Speaker 1: valued highly by teams and it's a more quantifiable asset
44:57
Speaker 1: that versus Now, let's talk about a twenty t twenty
45:00
Speaker 1: nine first round pick. Well, now we're talking about you know,
45:03
Speaker 1: potentially projecting kids who are fourteen or fifteen years old
45:06
Speaker 1: at the moment four or five years from now that
45:08
Speaker 1: that's a harder balance. So so teams historically are more
45:12
Speaker 1: aggressive as far as trading picks that could be really
45:15
Speaker 1: good in the future, you know, and some of that
45:17
Speaker 1: frankly that as human nature as you know as well.
45:20
Speaker 1: If this works out, great, If it doesn't work out,
45:23
Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to be here four or five
45:24
Speaker 1: years from now when when those bills come due on
45:26
Speaker 1: those future picks. So for me, you know, if you're
45:29
Speaker 1: a rebuilding team like Brooklyn, like Washington, you're looking at,
45:33
Speaker 1: you know, younger players, draft picks, your veterans are available,
45:38
Speaker 1: Versus if you're a contending team or think you're a
45:41
Speaker 1: contending team, you know, you know, maybe you're more willing
45:43
Speaker 1: to part with some of those young players and draft
45:45
Speaker 1: picks to give your team, you know, one last shot
45:47
Speaker 1: to go for it or you know, to get whatever
45:49
Speaker 1: your goals are, because you know that's not always to
45:51
Speaker 1: win the championship and maybe just get into the playoffs
45:54
Speaker 1: and start to climb the ladder from there. So that's
45:56
Speaker 1: kind of the breakdown you'll see. And I think, you know,
45:58
Speaker 1: especially in the Eastern Conference this year, to me, there's
46:00
Speaker 1: some pretty obvious teams that are going to be buyers,
46:02
Speaker 1: some teams that are going to be sellers, and then
46:04
Speaker 1: some teams that I think object to people like you
46:06
Speaker 1: and I think should be buyers of sellers who will
46:08
Speaker 1: do the opposite. But that's why this is fun, right,
46:10
Speaker 1: everybody can have different opinions on where their team lies
46:13
Speaker 1: and where it could possibly end up.
46:14
Speaker 2: Well, Ryan, I would love to dive into some of
46:16
Speaker 2: those buyer sellers, and maybe some of the swing teams
46:19
Speaker 2: as you assess it. One other observation I'd have in
46:22
Speaker 2: terms of the wealth of draft picks that are traded,
46:26
Speaker 2: I imagine at some point it becomes pretty concerning from
46:28
Speaker 2: an ownership standpoint, because if you're the Clippers and I'm
46:32
Speaker 2: reading about the Milwaukee Bucks and they're one of these
46:35
Speaker 2: swing teams, but they're also bereft of first round selections,
46:39
Speaker 2: if you then have to make a change with your
46:41
Speaker 2: general manager and bring in a new general manager. While
46:43
Speaker 2: I do understand there are only thirty of these jobs,
46:45
Speaker 2: it has to be pretty unappealing walking into a situation
46:48
Speaker 2: where you may not have a first round pick for
46:50
Speaker 2: the next four seasons and you have an aging roster.
46:53
Speaker 2: It's hard to understand exactly how you're going to dig
46:55
Speaker 2: out of this. And we talked about this in our
46:57
Speaker 2: previous episode about this notion of like rebuild, bilding after rebuilding,
47:01
Speaker 2: there's only so many years you can wallow in with
47:05
Speaker 2: a really poor winning percentage before you're kind of assigned
47:08
Speaker 2: to that winning percentage and you're going to be swapped out.
47:11
Speaker 2: So these have got to be assets and resources that
47:14
Speaker 2: have damning effects today but also may really limit your
47:17
Speaker 2: ability to attract talent at the front office level, let
47:20
Speaker 2: alone on the court in the future. But let's dive
47:23
Speaker 2: into some of these buyers and sellers. Who's in the
47:26
Speaker 2: top of your list as teams that you're keeping your
47:28
Speaker 2: eye on here over the next six weeks.
47:32
Speaker 1: I'll start with the Eastern Conference that I think a
47:34
Speaker 1: couple of the buyers are obvious given how open the
47:37
Speaker 1: East is with the injury to Jason Tatum and Boston
47:40
Speaker 1: Tyres Halliburton in Indiana obviously the pacer defending Eastern Conference champions.
47:45
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the two teams that were projected to
47:47
Speaker 1: be the top two who still may be the top
47:49
Speaker 1: two thad at the end of the day. Start with
47:51
Speaker 1: the Cleveland Cavaliers very disappointing. As you know, we did
47:54
Speaker 1: the preseason show. I predicted them to play in the
47:57
Speaker 1: NBA Finals. Out of the East, they're only fifteen twelve.
48:01
Speaker 1: There's seventh in the Eastern Conference that's in playoff play
48:04
Speaker 1: in range. I thought they'd be one of the top
48:05
Speaker 1: two teams in the conference. But the good news is
48:07
Speaker 1: what I just said, there's still an opportunity for them
48:10
Speaker 1: to move up. They've had some injuries, notably to Darius
48:13
Speaker 1: Garland and Jared Allen. They lost Ty Jerome, who had
48:16
Speaker 1: a terrific year off the bench. He was a sixth
48:19
Speaker 1: Man of the Year candidate a year ago. But this
48:21
Speaker 1: is a talented team that I think. This is a
48:22
Speaker 1: team that is underachieved. I bet they'll play better going.
48:26
Speaker 1: They may need to make a move or too, but
48:27
Speaker 1: to me, they're pretty obvious buyer, especially given how open
48:30
Speaker 1: the Eastern Conference is. And then the team that recently
48:33
Speaker 1: won the NBA Cup, the New York Knicks, eighteen and seven,
48:36
Speaker 1: second in the East, trailing only to Detroit Pistons. Detroit
48:40
Speaker 1: Pistons have had a magical start to the year. They're
48:42
Speaker 1: way ahead of schedule, but they are young and So
48:44
Speaker 1: how will they hold up in the playoffs with the
48:46
Speaker 1: young team. Kate Cunningham looks like a superstar. But I
48:49
Speaker 1: think if you're in New York that this is your time.
48:51
Speaker 1: You've been building for this, You've been patient. You beat
48:54
Speaker 1: the mighty Boston Celtics last year before falling to the
48:57
Speaker 1: Indiana Pacers in the conference final. You made a coach changed,
49:00
Speaker 1: it was controversial, with Tom Thibodeaux going out Mike Brown
49:03
Speaker 1: coming in. There's never going to be a better opportunity
49:06
Speaker 1: to win the Eastern Conference and play for an NBA
49:08
Speaker 1: championship if you're the New York Knicks. So those are
49:10
Speaker 1: two of the teams that stand out to me. New
49:13
Speaker 1: York's played up to my expectations. Cleveland's played below my expectations,
49:17
Speaker 1: but I still think that means they'll be aggressive over
49:19
Speaker 1: the next month and a half.
49:20
Speaker 3: Well.
49:21
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, aside from the kiss the death of
49:23
Speaker 2: winning the Cup, the Knicks have really seemed to be
49:25
Speaker 2: pulling it together right now and maybe getting healthy at
49:28
Speaker 2: the right time, which was an issue for them down
49:30
Speaker 2: the stretch last year. How about in the Western Conference, Ryan,
49:33
Speaker 2: how do you feel it's shaping out West?
49:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the West. You have one team ahead of
49:38
Speaker 1: the pack, not only in the conference but in the league,
49:40
Speaker 1: and that's Oklahoma City. We've talked a lot about the
49:42
Speaker 1: thunders brilliance in historical dominance throughout this yow. They just
49:46
Speaker 1: lost their second game of the year the other night,
49:48
Speaker 1: but they're way ahead of the pack. And so then
49:50
Speaker 1: the challenge becomes, as you know, if there's a historically
49:53
Speaker 1: good team and you're also a very good team, is
49:55
Speaker 1: this the right time to make an aggressive move or
49:57
Speaker 1: would what it makes sense to wait a year or so.
50:00
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okayse's young enough where it looks like
50:02
Speaker 1: they're going to be good or should be good for
50:03
Speaker 1: a long time. But let's look at two teams just
50:05
Speaker 1: behind the Thunder in the standings. The Denver Nuggets stad
50:08
Speaker 1: nineteen and six, second in the Western Conference. The Kola
50:11
Speaker 1: Jokic again continues to put up video game numbers averaging
50:16
Speaker 1: about a triple double, his efficiencies off the charts. You know,
50:19
Speaker 1: you and I can debate who the best player is.
50:21
Speaker 1: If you go to any guy or woman who's doing
50:23
Speaker 1: analytics for NBA team now to say that there's no debate,
50:25
Speaker 1: it's Nicolai. You look at his numbers. This is historically good,
50:28
Speaker 1: not just this year, but over a five or six
50:30
Speaker 1: year period. He is in his early thirties now that so,
50:33
Speaker 1: how long does that championship windows stay open? I think
50:36
Speaker 1: Denver's new front office has done a nice job, you know,
50:38
Speaker 1: putting a solid team or very good team around Jokich.
50:41
Speaker 1: But still, is there a way for them to bridge
50:43
Speaker 1: the gap between them and Okac where they could really
50:45
Speaker 1: push and potentially beat the Thunder in a playoff series.
50:48
Speaker 1: Keep in mind that those two teams won seven games
50:50
Speaker 1: in the playoffs last year and see me, Denver broke
50:53
Speaker 1: down Aaron Gordon's hamstring, he got it out in the
50:56
Speaker 1: final game, but they were not completely healthy. Could a
50:59
Speaker 1: healthy and deep Denver team beat Okac in a playoff
51:01
Speaker 1: series this year? I think that's certainly possible. And then
51:04
Speaker 1: the LA Lakers eighteen and seven, they're five and a
51:07
Speaker 1: half games back of Okac, third in the West. We
51:10
Speaker 1: know what Luka Donsich has done. He's in better shape,
51:12
Speaker 1: he's playing great. We know Austin Reeves has been a
51:14
Speaker 1: revelation that and one of the things that's interesting with
51:18
Speaker 1: Reeves is he's going to be an unrestricted free agent
51:20
Speaker 1: and the way he's playing, he should be an All
51:22
Speaker 1: Star this year. There's going to be a ton of
51:23
Speaker 1: money available in the marketplace for him. So if you
51:27
Speaker 1: have Lebron, James Luka, Donca, Johnstin Reeves and Reeves may leave,
51:31
Speaker 1: he may resign obviously, but you know, are you more aggressive?
51:34
Speaker 1: I think would think that's the case for Rob Lincoln Company.
51:36
Speaker 1: So that's it for me that those two teams keep
51:39
Speaker 1: an eye on them, but also keep in mind that
51:41
Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to be reckless about it.
51:43
Speaker 1: In my opinion, they shouldn't be reckless because okaysee looks
51:46
Speaker 1: so good and impenetrable now that they have, you know,
51:49
Speaker 1: not only the championship from a year ago, but the
51:51
Speaker 1: historical point differential, the talent, the depth and as we
51:54
Speaker 1: know that they've won a lot of these games, some
51:56
Speaker 1: without Chet Holmgren, some without Isaiah Hartenstein, the Thunder, that
52:00
Speaker 1: kind of talent depth where I don't say it doesn't
52:02
Speaker 1: matter who's on the court, but Jalen Williams was out
52:04
Speaker 1: for a while, they kept winning. Other than Jay Guilde Alexander,
52:07
Speaker 1: if they're relatively healthy, they're going to be a prohibitive
52:09
Speaker 1: favorite to win the championship.
52:11
Speaker 2: Well, right, I think that's an interesting tie that binds
52:14
Speaker 2: those three teams together. Two is they're obviously exceptionally talented.
52:17
Speaker 2: They've been extremely successful. They also have had key injuries.
52:21
Speaker 2: You know, Lebron's missed a lot of time. Aaron Gordon
52:23
Speaker 2: is missing time again right now. You could argue that's
52:26
Speaker 2: a benefit if they're able to keep winning games at
52:28
Speaker 2: this level but also kind of rest some of their
52:31
Speaker 2: superstar players and manage their workloads. Unintentionally of course, but
52:35
Speaker 2: you take advantage of the time the guys on the
52:38
Speaker 2: injured list. You know, you're going to look up at
52:39
Speaker 2: the end of the year. Lebron will have an appropriate
52:41
Speaker 2: amount of amendments, so too, maybe Aaron Gordon, those guys
52:44
Speaker 2: you mentioned o case you are really young. But nonetheless
52:47
Speaker 2: they also will be rested. That's going to be really
52:49
Speaker 2: concerning to the rest of the division when they've played
52:52
Speaker 2: very few games those three teams with their starting five
52:55
Speaker 2: that they're going to have to face if they face
52:57
Speaker 2: those teams in the playoffs, in their sitting in the
53:01
Speaker 2: number one, two, and three spots in the West. But
53:03
Speaker 2: let's shift our attention a little bit to the sellers.
53:05
Speaker 2: Give us one or two sellers in the East and West.
53:07
Speaker 2: Who are you keeping your eye on as teams that
53:09
Speaker 2: if you were a GM you would be calling right
53:11
Speaker 2: now to see if you could acquire some of their talent.
53:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, for the sellers, you go to the bottom of
53:15
Speaker 1: the standings. Let's start in the East. AD the Washington Wizards.
53:19
Speaker 1: They have Chris Middleton, who they acquired from Milwaukee, played
53:22
Speaker 1: a huge role on that twenty twenty one title team
53:24
Speaker 1: with the Bucks. There are some knee concerns with Middleton. Thad,
53:27
Speaker 1: he's missed some time to be interested, that's what the
53:30
Speaker 1: other twenty nine teams are doing right now. We talked
53:32
Speaker 1: about it earlier, but evaluating the health of players. If
53:34
Speaker 1: we get this guy, is he healthy? Frankly, that is
53:37
Speaker 1: he not playing as much because Washington is a young,
53:39
Speaker 1: rebuilding team who's not trying to maximize winning and they're
53:42
Speaker 1: trying to maximize development. So if Middleton is rested, you know,
53:46
Speaker 1: can he give us the last third of the season
53:47
Speaker 1: in the playoffs and stay relatively healthy. But him and
53:50
Speaker 1: instance CG. McCollum in particular, having a pretty good year
53:53
Speaker 1: in Washington. Quietly, they're both thirty four years old, so
53:55
Speaker 1: that's more for a contending team. We need the piece.
53:58
Speaker 1: Brooklyn seven and eighteen. Michael Porter Junior and Nick Claxton
54:02
Speaker 1: are twenty six and twenty seven years old in their prime. Thad.
54:05
Speaker 1: Those guys would help some teams if you need a
54:07
Speaker 1: score and wing or a center. So I look at
54:09
Speaker 1: those two in the East and then in the West,
54:11
Speaker 1: two teams who hope not to be in this position,
54:14
Speaker 1: the New Orleans Pelicans last in the West. Teams will
54:17
Speaker 1: call about their talented young wings like Trey Murphy and
54:19
Speaker 1: Herbert Jones. I don't think they'll trade those guys. I
54:22
Speaker 1: don't think they should trade those guys. But the wildcard
54:24
Speaker 1: that and the question they're going to have to answer
54:26
Speaker 1: at some point in New Orleans that keeps lingering. What
54:29
Speaker 1: to do with Zion Williamson Again, Zion's hurt this year,
54:32
Speaker 1: He's only played in eleven of the first twenty seven games.
54:34
Speaker 1: I think that's probably a better deal to do in
54:36
Speaker 1: the offseason, that, especially given his diminished trade value. And
54:39
Speaker 1: then Sacramento, they had new front office in Sacramento, Doug
54:42
Speaker 1: Christy got named as the permanent head coach. They're six
54:46
Speaker 1: and twenty they have a lot of veterans that in
54:49
Speaker 1: Demato Simonis, zach Lavine and DeMar de Rozan who have
54:52
Speaker 1: been All Stars, been very good players in the league.
54:54
Speaker 1: And one thing to keep in mind that I know
54:55
Speaker 1: you know this, but for our listeners, when there's a
54:57
Speaker 1: new front office who did not necessarily acquire those guys,
55:00
Speaker 1: they're probably not as loyal to them as it's not
55:03
Speaker 1: really on them to make it work at least whether
55:05
Speaker 1: that's fair or not. That's how executives sometimes look at
55:08
Speaker 1: these jobs. So I'd expect Sacramento to be maybe the
55:11
Speaker 1: most active team and the most likely team that to
55:14
Speaker 1: make a deal. Let me put it this way, I'd
55:16
Speaker 1: be surprised if all three of those guys, sa Bonis,
55:18
Speaker 1: Levigne and DeRozan are on the King's roster after the
55:21
Speaker 1: trade deadline.
55:23
Speaker 2: Ryan, when I moved from Texas to Minnesota, I got
55:27
Speaker 2: several calls from GM's friends of mine who gave me
55:30
Speaker 2: trade proposals that would have gotten me fired within forty
55:32
Speaker 2: eight hours of.
55:33
Speaker 1: Being named the GM of the Twins.
55:35
Speaker 2: So I can relate entirely to what you're talking about,
55:38
Speaker 2: but all joking aside. When there was a new GM
55:40
Speaker 2: named you would get on the phone with him and
55:42
Speaker 2: understand who of the players he's acquired or inherited, I
55:46
Speaker 2: should say, is he linked to versus who he's not,
55:48
Speaker 2: And maybe there are opportunities to make some deals. But
55:51
Speaker 2: you know, Sacramento was a team that was a contender
55:53
Speaker 2: not that many years ago as a playoff you know,
55:56
Speaker 2: consideration team. It's amazing how these things have been flow
55:59
Speaker 2: especially in the extremely competitive Western Conference. Who are a
56:04
Speaker 2: few teams that you think could go either way based
56:06
Speaker 2: upon how they play in the upcoming week's rant.
56:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll give you one in each conference that in
56:10
Speaker 1: the West, the Golden State Warriors. We talked about them
56:12
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier, but at thirteen and fourteen, eighth
56:15
Speaker 1: in the West, that's in play and range. They're underperforming.
56:18
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler hasn't played as well, but again with the
56:21
Speaker 1: great Steph Curry that keep in mind what he's done
56:23
Speaker 1: for that franchise, not only with the four championships, but
56:26
Speaker 1: if you're Joe lakeup the owner, that you're the most
56:28
Speaker 1: valuable franchise now in the NBA. You have a brand
56:30
Speaker 1: new arena. Steph Curry is you know there are several
56:33
Speaker 1: reasons for that, but Steph Curry is the main reason
56:35
Speaker 1: in my opinion, So do you feel like you owe
56:36
Speaker 1: it to him one more time, even if it's not prudent,
56:38
Speaker 1: even if they look a mile away from OKC, to
56:40
Speaker 1: try to give him one last run at a championship.
56:43
Speaker 1: And then the most interesting team in the entire league
56:45
Speaker 1: that I think, not just to me, but a lot
56:47
Speaker 1: of NBA insiders is the Boston Celtics. We heard throughout
56:51
Speaker 1: the offseason this is going to be a gap year
56:53
Speaker 1: for the Celtics. Jason Tatum had the horrific injury the
56:56
Speaker 1: torn achilles when he went down against the New York
56:58
Speaker 1: Knicks in the Eastern Conference semi five Donalds a year ago.
57:01
Speaker 1: People just assume, so he's going to be out for
57:03
Speaker 1: the year. Next year, he's going to miss the entire
57:05
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, twenty six season. With that, we're not
57:08
Speaker 1: even at Christmas yet, and their videos of him in
57:10
Speaker 1: Boston running, jumping, cutting, dunking. And by the way, the
57:14
Speaker 1: Celtics at fifteen eleven, they're fourth in the Eastern Conference.
57:17
Speaker 1: So if Jason Tatum plays that we talked about how
57:20
Speaker 1: open the Eastern Conferences, this team is right on the
57:23
Speaker 1: cusp of contention again. So the question for Brad Stevens
57:26
Speaker 1: in their front office, who's as good as any in
57:28
Speaker 1: the league. Their front line's not good enough. They've lost
57:31
Speaker 1: Chris stafsportzingis Al Horford, Robert Williams in recent years. Can
57:36
Speaker 1: they go out and add a frontline player that I'm
57:38
Speaker 1: gonna let you in a secret. Those guys who were
57:39
Speaker 1: seven foot can dribble, pass and shoot and rebound. It
57:41
Speaker 1: hard to find, so it's not easy to do that.
57:44
Speaker 1: But as I look at it, if Tatum returns in particular,
57:47
Speaker 1: and he's anywhere close to what he was before, their
57:49
Speaker 1: perimeter is good good enough. Their back court's good enough,
57:52
Speaker 1: their front court is not. So that's that's a challenge
57:55
Speaker 1: for Stevens a company. With one eye, they're watching Tatum,
57:58
Speaker 1: engaging you know, how likely as you to return and
58:01
Speaker 1: how good will he be if he plays, And then
58:03
Speaker 1: on the other hand, they're evaluating front line saying is
58:04
Speaker 1: this really the time to be aggressive or should we
58:07
Speaker 1: wait one more year, get Tatum completely healthy and then
58:10
Speaker 1: try to upgrade our roster next offseason.
58:13
Speaker 2: And Ryan, I think what you're talking about here too
58:15
Speaker 2: is the fact that we have all this information at
58:18
Speaker 2: our disposal. We have all these plans that we put
58:20
Speaker 2: in place. I'm guessing that the Celtics though this was
58:23
Speaker 2: not a rebuilding year but a retooling year based upon
58:25
Speaker 2: the trades they made this offseason. They wanted to get
58:27
Speaker 2: a little bit more nimble under the cap and they
58:30
Speaker 2: get some assets for the future. Now, all of a sudden,
58:32
Speaker 2: they may have to pivot, their star player may come
58:35
Speaker 2: back early, and they're in more contention than they probably
58:37
Speaker 2: ever thought. They weren't thinking they were going to be
58:39
Speaker 2: buyers at the deadline. I'm assuming this year. So having
58:43
Speaker 2: the ability to be nimble is part of the art
58:46
Speaker 2: form I think of decision making in the front office. Well,
58:49
Speaker 2: Ronnie did an extremely tremendous job here breaking down the
58:53
Speaker 2: NBA in the trade situation. You set an extraordinarily high
58:57
Speaker 2: bar for producer Wyat. He claims he's gonna Fosbury flop
59:01
Speaker 2: over it. On the other side of the s break,
59:03
Speaker 2: stay with us here for listener questions on Rosters to Rings.
59:16
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings has always I'm with
59:19
Speaker 2: Ryan McDonough. We are excited to bring in producer Wyatt.
59:23
Speaker 2: He's sharpening his fangs right to sink him into our
59:26
Speaker 2: jugulars with some listener questions. He was a little chapped
59:29
Speaker 2: off by the fact that I referenced Dick Fosbury, who
59:32
Speaker 2: only predated Ryan's birth by forty two years. Here we
59:36
Speaker 2: go listener questions with producer Wyatt.
59:39
Speaker 3: Thank you that, Thank you for always keeping me on
59:41
Speaker 3: my toes. Last week it was I was sharpening my knives,
59:44
Speaker 3: and this week I'm I'm sharpening some things. So I
59:47
Speaker 3: love it.
59:48
Speaker 1: Uh.
59:49
Speaker 3: First question we got from Ryan Giffens. This is the
59:52
Speaker 3: second question he submitted, so shout out to Ryan, but
59:57
Speaker 3: you can answer this one. Ryan wants to no. Is
1:00:00
Speaker 3: there ever a time when a general manager or president
1:00:03
Speaker 3: of baseball operations will work solo on a trade or
1:00:07
Speaker 3: pursuit of a free agent? Or is everything done as
1:00:10
Speaker 3: a team or group of people that the GM trusts.
1:00:14
Speaker 2: I think it's a great question, right. I think in
1:00:16
Speaker 2: today's day and age, there are very few gms who
1:00:18
Speaker 2: are operating independent of an inner circle. Now, some teams
1:00:23
Speaker 2: dms have an inner circle that maybe one or two
1:00:25
Speaker 2: other people. Some have like more of a consensus building
1:00:28
Speaker 2: operation where they have seven to ten people and they
1:00:31
Speaker 2: bounce everything off of that group. So oftentimes there are
1:00:35
Speaker 2: gms out there who we talked about it earlier in
1:00:37
Speaker 2: this episode, usually have four to five negotiators per team.
1:00:41
Speaker 2: Some teams really only have one or two. We talked
1:00:44
Speaker 2: about it earlier. Aj Preller Dave Dombrowski are two gms
1:00:47
Speaker 2: notorious for running point on the line share of the negotiations.
1:00:52
Speaker 2: That said, I do think they take things back to
1:00:54
Speaker 2: the room, They have significant conversations. They have a lot
1:00:57
Speaker 2: of counselors who are weighing in before they allultimately make decisions.
1:01:01
Speaker 2: They're doing most of the negotiations, but in most from
1:01:04
Speaker 2: offices cases, there are a lot of different negotiators and
1:01:07
Speaker 2: there's an inner circle that is comprised of at least
1:01:09
Speaker 2: three eight to I'd say eight to ten people who
1:01:11
Speaker 2: are advising the executive decision maker.
1:01:15
Speaker 1: Ninety nine percent of the time the NBA and its
1:01:17
Speaker 1: teams operate the way you just mentioned that with a group,
1:01:21
Speaker 1: I'd say the one percent of the time it doesn't.
1:01:23
Speaker 1: Is what happened like with the La Lakers and the
1:01:26
Speaker 1: Luka Doncis trade with the Dallas Mavericks. It was so sensitive.
1:01:29
Speaker 1: Obviously it benefited the Lakers. It really harmed the Dallas Mavericks.
1:01:33
Speaker 1: But because of who Luca is, because of who Anthony
1:01:35
Speaker 1: Davis is. You know, that's not one fad that, in
1:01:39
Speaker 1: my opinion, you need your personnel scouts to say, okay,
1:01:41
Speaker 1: tell me about Anthony Davis, what can he do on
1:01:43
Speaker 1: the basketball court or Luka Doncich. It's more questions about motivation, conditioning,
1:01:50
Speaker 1: medical records, things like that, and then ultimately an ownership decision.
1:01:53
Speaker 1: So that one seemed extremely tight between the MAVs NGM,
1:01:58
Speaker 1: Nico Harrison and their owner Patrick DeMont on one side,
1:02:01
Speaker 1: and then with the Lakers Rob Polinka, their GM and
1:02:03
Speaker 1: Genie Buss on the other side. That seemed almost like
1:02:05
Speaker 1: a four person conversation. Thad, that's a little bit unusual
1:02:08
Speaker 1: though that happens, you know, maybe once every handful of
1:02:11
Speaker 1: years in the MBA. Most of the time it is
1:02:13
Speaker 1: a group decision and you have at least a handful
1:02:16
Speaker 1: of people you bounce ideas off of, and then ultimately
1:02:19
Speaker 1: it has to get signed off on by the majority owner.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: You may not need somebody to break down Anthony Davis,
1:02:25
Speaker 2: but you may need the guys from the scene in
1:02:27
Speaker 2: airplane movement or everyone's knocking a little sense into on
1:02:30
Speaker 2: that deal. Tend to make sure you don't misstep. And
1:02:33
Speaker 2: you know, that's a perfect example of when you're not
1:02:35
Speaker 2: really leaning into your conciliaries, sometimes we do make short
1:02:39
Speaker 2: sighted decisions. They're there for a reason. They're a sounding board,
1:02:42
Speaker 2: they're a check and balance. They're very valuable to the process.
1:02:45
Speaker 3: All right. Next, questions from Jake in Cincinnati after hearing
1:02:51
Speaker 3: Joe Burrow's comments the last few weeks. How does a
1:02:54
Speaker 3: GM handle a player who may not be fully happy
1:02:58
Speaker 3: with the direction of the team. I don't know if
1:03:00
Speaker 3: you guys saw it, but you know Joe Burrow said
1:03:02
Speaker 3: something along the lines of if he's not having fun,
1:03:04
Speaker 3: then what am I doing it for? It's what he
1:03:08
Speaker 3: had said a few weeks ago.
1:03:09
Speaker 1: Yeah. I live close to Cincinnati. My son's a big
1:03:12
Speaker 1: Bengals fan, so we follow the team closely. It's been
1:03:15
Speaker 1: a tough year for the Bengals, starting with the Joe
1:03:17
Speaker 1: Burrow injury. Trey Hendrickson, their star pass rusher, has been
1:03:21
Speaker 1: injured as well. That's a tough one that for me
1:03:24
Speaker 1: because I think the most valuable position in all of sports.
1:03:28
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this a little, including with John
1:03:30
Speaker 1: d Vlippo, who had on last week expert offensive coordinator,
1:03:33
Speaker 1: a quarterback developer in the NBA, NFL and in college
1:03:37
Speaker 1: at the highest levels. You know, that position is so
1:03:39
Speaker 1: valuable that and the tough thing is if I'm a
1:03:42
Speaker 1: Cincinnati Bengals fan or the owner or an executive, you know,
1:03:46
Speaker 1: those guys don't come around too often, right. You can
1:03:49
Speaker 1: swamp out players at other positions, maybe give a little
1:03:52
Speaker 1: for financial reasons whatever, you know, other giving, actually giving
1:03:57
Speaker 1: in other areas, but not at the quarterback position when
1:03:59
Speaker 1: you have a franchise guy who's in his prime. So yeah,
1:04:02
Speaker 1: I would, you know, see if there's anything we can
1:04:05
Speaker 1: do to make it work. If I'm with the Bengals,
1:04:07
Speaker 1: they have talented receivers led by Jamar Chase and T Higgins.
1:04:11
Speaker 1: Certainly not a football guru, but to me, it seems
1:04:13
Speaker 1: like their offensive line hasn't been good enough in recent years.
1:04:16
Speaker 1: That was a concern coming into the season, and I think,
1:04:19
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to say that that may have
1:04:20
Speaker 1: led to the injury to Joe Burrow, but that for me,
1:04:23
Speaker 1: there's some guys who, you know, if they're just pretty
1:04:26
Speaker 1: good players or especially subpar players, it's easier to move
1:04:28
Speaker 1: on from boy that franchise quarterback in the NFL, especially
1:04:32
Speaker 1: if he's still got a lot of gas left in
1:04:33
Speaker 1: the tank, which I think Joe Burrow does if healthy.
1:04:36
Speaker 1: That would be one of the most difficult players for
1:04:38
Speaker 1: me to ever trade. Yeah, Ron, I think he broke
1:04:41
Speaker 1: it down perfectly.
1:04:41
Speaker 2: I think the one thing I just would add is
1:04:44
Speaker 2: as valuable as the quarterback is and probably the most
1:04:46
Speaker 2: valuable position in all professional sports, they're also the most
1:04:49
Speaker 2: likely to have a microphone thrust in front of their face.
1:04:53
Speaker 2: If they win, they're interviewed after the game. If they lose,
1:04:56
Speaker 2: their interviewed after the game, there's really no reprieve. So
1:04:59
Speaker 2: I think what we're also seeing here in Joe Burrow's
1:05:01
Speaker 2: commentary is he's a human being, you know, and these
1:05:04
Speaker 2: guys are human beings, and they have emotional responses from
1:05:07
Speaker 2: time to time. And he's put on a good face
1:05:09
Speaker 2: for as long as he possibly can, and he just
1:05:11
Speaker 2: needed a little bit of an outlet. Do I think
1:05:13
Speaker 2: he's going to get back on the horse and being
1:05:15
Speaker 2: an extremely productive quarterback in the league, I absolutely do.
1:05:19
Speaker 2: I think he's one of the most fun guys to
1:05:20
Speaker 2: watch play. He's a gunslinger, and as you know, disadvantage
1:05:25
Speaker 2: as they've been in so many games, they have a
1:05:27
Speaker 2: chance to win as long as he's under center. I
1:05:30
Speaker 2: don't think that's going to change. But I think what
1:05:31
Speaker 2: we see here is just the immense pressures of these positions,
1:05:35
Speaker 2: and if you put a microphone in front of these
1:05:37
Speaker 2: guys faces at all times, at some point they're going
1:05:40
Speaker 2: to show a little bit of a crack. I think
1:05:41
Speaker 2: maybe the more remarkable thing here is that he hadn't
1:05:44
Speaker 2: shown it earlier.
1:05:45
Speaker 3: Good stuff, all right. Next question is from Mark Ryan.
1:05:49
Speaker 3: Do you have a take on the fubating stigma around
1:05:52
Speaker 3: OKAC and do you think it's fair. I don't know
1:05:56
Speaker 3: if you saw Victor wemen Yama's comments after he beat
1:06:00
Speaker 3: the Thunder in the NBA Cup said saying, how the
1:06:02
Speaker 3: Spurs play ethical basketball, But that's clearly been a discussion
1:06:08
Speaker 3: around the league this season so far.
1:06:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of become a catchphrase among diehard NBA fans,
1:06:14
Speaker 1: that ethical basketball. You know, they just thought that there's
1:06:17
Speaker 1: a right way and a wrong way to play the game.
1:06:20
Speaker 1: You know, I don't have a problem with what Shake
1:06:22
Speaker 1: Gilders Alexander does. I've always been a big fan of
1:06:25
Speaker 1: him as a player, and going back to the twenty
1:06:26
Speaker 1: eighteen draft, when you know, I wanted to acquire him
1:06:29
Speaker 1: on draft night when I was GM of the Sun.
1:06:30
Speaker 1: So I don't have an issue with it. Frankly, I
1:06:33
Speaker 1: had more of an issue with what James Harden did
1:06:35
Speaker 1: when he was in Houston when he drive the lane,
1:06:38
Speaker 1: extend both arms, and I thought he was seeking defenders
1:06:41
Speaker 1: to try to get their arms on top of his
1:06:43
Speaker 1: and then kind of rip through and go to the
1:06:45
Speaker 1: free throw line. I thought that was more obvious and
1:06:47
Speaker 1: kind of more gaining the system, so to speak. We
1:06:50
Speaker 1: know what Houston did with the analytical advantage they created.
1:06:54
Speaker 1: Harden would also look to initiate contact on three point shots,
1:06:58
Speaker 1: and then I thought a lot of it was flopped
1:07:00
Speaker 1: and that was actually the most damaging play in the
1:07:02
Speaker 1: game for the opponent. If you foul a good three
1:07:05
Speaker 1: point shooter, that the points per possession, you know, it's
1:07:07
Speaker 1: like like two point four to two point seven points
1:07:10
Speaker 1: per possession, which is hugely advantage, especially if you have
1:07:13
Speaker 1: a great pre throw, lighter shooter like James Harden going
1:07:16
Speaker 1: to line for three. So, you know, so I had
1:07:18
Speaker 1: more of an issue with that, But maybe it's you know,
1:07:22
Speaker 1: because I'm a fan of Shay the way he plays,
1:07:24
Speaker 1: he's a bigger guard. I think that's what a lot
1:07:26
Speaker 1: of people don't realize about Sga, because he's so smooth.
1:07:29
Speaker 1: He's about six foot six, he's very well put together.
1:07:32
Speaker 1: He initiates a lot of contact. So I think the
1:07:35
Speaker 1: only critician that I may agree with a little bit
1:07:37
Speaker 1: that is that Shae initiates a lot of contact. He
1:07:41
Speaker 1: tends to get the benefits of the whistle. I think
1:07:43
Speaker 1: if you ask the other twenty nine teams, they would
1:07:45
Speaker 1: say defensively, the Thunder are by far the most physical
1:07:48
Speaker 1: defensive team, So if the whistle's not balanced on both ends,
1:07:51
Speaker 1: I have somewhat of an issue with that. But again,
1:07:53
Speaker 1: shake Gills, Alexander. I'm such a fan of his game.
1:07:56
Speaker 1: He can isolate against just about anybody and go get
1:07:58
Speaker 1: a great shot if not bucket, and you know, I
1:08:02
Speaker 1: enjoy watching play fat. Frankly, I'm a little bit surprised
1:08:04
Speaker 1: that he's not a bigger star nationally and internationally than
1:08:08
Speaker 1: he is given how well he is played.
1:08:10
Speaker 3: All right. Next one is from Ernie that although it
1:08:14
Speaker 3: is early, who sticks out to you as early winners
1:08:17
Speaker 3: and or losers of the trade deadline so far, and
1:08:20
Speaker 3: to recap so far, some big moves that have been made.
1:08:24
Speaker 3: You know, you had the Mets losing the Lonzo to
1:08:26
Speaker 3: the Orioles and Diaz to the Dodgers, but they just
1:08:29
Speaker 3: signed Luke Weaver while we were recording, and they've got
1:08:32
Speaker 3: Devin Williams. You had Schwarber go back to the Phillies,
1:08:35
Speaker 3: and you know that you covered extensively. Don't cease to
1:08:39
Speaker 3: the Blue Jays.
1:08:40
Speaker 2: But I think what we want to do in professional
1:08:42
Speaker 2: sports is annoint winners and losers of trade and free agencycles,
1:08:46
Speaker 2: and usually it's heavily linked to who's been the most active.
1:08:50
Speaker 2: I also would tell you that there's a very very
1:08:52
Speaker 2: low correlation to activity in the offseason and winning in
1:08:56
Speaker 2: the regular season. So I'm not going to fall into
1:08:58
Speaker 2: the trap of necessarily just citing all the teams that
1:09:01
Speaker 2: have been very active. One thing I do want to
1:09:03
Speaker 2: say about the Mets, we didn't cover in the segment earlier.
1:09:07
Speaker 2: You just referenced it. Why at the fact that they've
1:09:09
Speaker 2: lost a number of really marquee players Edwin Diaz, Pied Alonzo,
1:09:12
Speaker 2: guys who had been stalwarts of theirs. They also traded
1:09:15
Speaker 2: Brandon Nemo to the Texas Rangers, and I think that's
1:09:19
Speaker 2: leaving the Mets fans feeling a level of concern that
1:09:23
Speaker 2: they're losing some of their superstars. I would tell you
1:09:25
Speaker 2: from a front office perspective, and maybe just the right
1:09:28
Speaker 2: time to lose those three players, because while they've been excellent,
1:09:31
Speaker 2: they're also in an aging process right now where there's
1:09:34
Speaker 2: a chance where they've played their best baseball for the
1:09:36
Speaker 2: New York Mets. The New York Mets fans may have
1:09:38
Speaker 2: seen the best of best seasons of few of those guys.
1:09:42
Speaker 2: Not to say that they can't perform well in the future,
1:09:44
Speaker 2: but maybe it wasn't the perfect right time to invest three,
1:09:47
Speaker 2: four or five years in their future. So I think
1:09:50
Speaker 2: as much as the fans are bemoaning losing those three guys,
1:09:54
Speaker 2: I wonder out loud if their fun office is as much.
1:09:57
Speaker 2: They're looking to reallocate those funds, get a little bit more,
1:10:00
Speaker 2: get a little bit more nimble. Now, it's yet to
1:10:01
Speaker 2: be determined whether they're going to do that, So I'm
1:10:04
Speaker 2: going to stay on the sidelines on this one and
1:10:06
Speaker 2: say the winner and loser of the offseason is yet
1:10:08
Speaker 2: to be determined, but I wouldn't be surprised if it
1:10:10
Speaker 2: ends up being a team that really isn't exceptionally active.
1:10:13
Speaker 2: A team I'm keeping my eye on right now. The
1:10:15
Speaker 2: Detroit Tigers have subtly rebuilt their whole bullpen, the back
1:10:18
Speaker 2: end of their bullpen, with some really interesting signings. They've
1:10:21
Speaker 2: brought back Finnegan, They're bringing in ken Lee Jansen, and
1:10:24
Speaker 2: the guy that I'm really keeping an eye on is
1:10:26
Speaker 2: Tarik Skooble, the two time cy Young Award winner. If
1:10:30
Speaker 2: they hold on to them, that, in a weird way,
1:10:32
Speaker 2: maybe one of the biggest acquisitions of the whole offseason,
1:10:35
Speaker 2: because I think everyone's assuming they're going to trade them.
1:10:38
Speaker 2: Everyone's assuming Milwaukee's going to trade Freddie Peralta. Those are
1:10:41
Speaker 2: two bona fide aces in the game. If those teams
1:10:43
Speaker 2: retain them, those will be great acquisitions for them, and
1:10:46
Speaker 2: they didn't have to do anything to acquire them. If
1:10:49
Speaker 2: they trade them, they're going to get an exceptional wealth
1:10:51
Speaker 2: of talent in return. Those are two players I'm very
1:10:53
Speaker 2: interested to see if they stay put or if they're
1:10:56
Speaker 2: going to be on the move.
1:10:57
Speaker 3: All right, last question, This one's for Ryan from Daniel,
1:11:03
Speaker 3: what are your thoughts on the Heat having to deal
1:11:06
Speaker 3: with Terry Rogier's contract and what do you think Adam
1:11:09
Speaker 3: Silver should do in this situation? And for some added context,
1:11:14
Speaker 3: the Heat traded a first round pick for Rogier in
1:11:17
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. They have said that they were unaware
1:11:20
Speaker 3: of the gambling accusations when they traded for him, and
1:11:23
Speaker 3: he also has a twenty six point six million dollar
1:11:25
Speaker 3: cap hit this season.
1:11:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a fascinating one and a difficult one
1:11:30
Speaker 1: and a question that frankly, Adam Silver kind of punted
1:11:32
Speaker 1: on this week when he was at the NBA Cup
1:11:34
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas and asked about it. You know, he
1:11:37
Speaker 1: said it's unprecedented and that the league really doesn't have
1:11:40
Speaker 1: a good answer. I think that the tough thing in
1:11:43
Speaker 1: situations like this is you go back to what did
1:11:47
Speaker 1: Charlotte know at the time of the trade and what
1:11:50
Speaker 1: were they required or not required to disclose, right, because
1:11:53
Speaker 1: there are rules in these leagues about you know, what
1:11:56
Speaker 1: you have to disclose, especially from a medical perspective. We've
1:11:59
Speaker 1: seen some issues among teams I think across sports where
1:12:02
Speaker 1: teams did not disclose what they should have medically, and
1:12:04
Speaker 1: then the deal gets unwound, or you know, a team
1:12:07
Speaker 1: thinks the other team should have been more forthcoming about
1:12:10
Speaker 1: a player's medical issues. That was the case recently this
1:12:12
Speaker 1: past trade deadline in the NBA, with Mark Williams going
1:12:15
Speaker 1: from Charlotte to the Lakers and then going back to
1:12:17
Speaker 1: Charlotte after the trade was rescinded post trade deadline. This
1:12:22
Speaker 1: is a tough one, Thad, because it's you're involving you know,
1:12:25
Speaker 1: the FBI, you're involving law enforcement, You're involving things that
1:12:29
Speaker 1: are outside the jurisdiction of the n b A the NBA,
1:12:32
Speaker 1: I think, you know, to to defend them a little bit,
1:12:36
Speaker 1: they investigated some of the stuff initially before the FBA
1:12:40
Speaker 1: came out with the claims against terror Zier, Damon Jones,
1:12:44
Speaker 1: and Chelsey Billups. The NBA said, well, you know, we
1:12:46
Speaker 1: looked into it, but we couldn't find anything. But you know,
1:12:49
Speaker 1: we don't have the right to subpoena people and we
1:12:51
Speaker 1: can't you know, we don't have the resources that the
1:12:53
Speaker 1: FBI or some of these law enforcement agencies do. So
1:12:56
Speaker 1: this is a tough one that I do understand why
1:12:59
Speaker 1: the NBA is not ruling anything prematurely yes, it is
1:13:02
Speaker 1: disadvantage in the Miami Heat, There's no question about that.
1:13:05
Speaker 1: But that as you know, what these leagues are really
1:13:06
Speaker 1: worried about is precedent, where if something is pending or
1:13:10
Speaker 1: unsettled at that point, the leagues really do not want
1:13:13
Speaker 1: to jump in midstream and make a ruling that would
1:13:15
Speaker 1: maybe in this case benefit Miami or maybe disadvantage Charlotte.
1:13:18
Speaker 1: They want to let this thing play out. Unfortunately, it
1:13:21
Speaker 1: looks like this thing is going to play out that
1:13:23
Speaker 1: you know, throughout the NBA season very likely passed the
1:13:25
Speaker 1: trade deadline in February fifth, maybe even pass the end
1:13:27
Speaker 1: of the regular season in April. So that hurts Miami,
1:13:30
Speaker 1: there's no question about it. But frankly, that terror Zier
1:13:33
Speaker 1: hadn't played very well in a Heat uniform anyways. It's
1:13:35
Speaker 1: not like they're taking off the court an extremely high performer.
1:13:38
Speaker 1: He had been a disappointment since Miami acquired him. So, yes,
1:13:42
Speaker 1: I understand Miami's frustration and I totally get it, But
1:13:45
Speaker 1: I also understand why the league's not jumping in midstream
1:13:47
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, you know, you need to do this
1:13:49
Speaker 1: or that to make the situation right and rectify what's
1:13:53
Speaker 1: gone on with the Miami Heat.
1:13:55
Speaker 2: I think it's a great question from Daniel, and I
1:13:57
Speaker 2: think these are the instances where the rule books that
1:14:00
Speaker 2: these leagues put forth are exhaustive, but there's always something
1:14:04
Speaker 2: they're not projecting to have happened, and they're somewhat beholden.
1:14:08
Speaker 2: And you know, as you mentioned, Ryan, especially when federal
1:14:11
Speaker 2: investigations are involved, their hands are tied in a lot
1:14:13
Speaker 2: of these regards. It seems very elementary that they should
1:14:16
Speaker 2: step in and maybe help out the Miami Heat and
1:14:18
Speaker 2: undue parts of that deal per se. But really there's
1:14:22
Speaker 2: stipulations that are put in place two that they have
1:14:25
Speaker 2: to follow. They can't violate those things, so they're a
1:14:27
Speaker 2: little bit in a position where their hands are tied.
1:14:29
Speaker 2: I will say in my baseball career, this happened both
1:14:32
Speaker 2: ways to teams that I represented. One time, there was
1:14:36
Speaker 2: a player that had been accused of using performance enhancing drugs.
1:14:41
Speaker 2: He was part of the process where he was basically
1:14:46
Speaker 2: contesting it, and we thought he was going to be absolved.
1:14:50
Speaker 2: We had an opportunity to trade him. We called the
1:14:52
Speaker 2: league and said can we proceed? They said no, They
1:14:55
Speaker 2: said we shouldn't. And that was one of those cases
1:14:56
Speaker 2: where do you ask for forgiveness or you asked for permission,
1:15:01
Speaker 2: or you beg for forgiveness, And we looked back and said,
1:15:03
Speaker 2: maybe we should have done that a different sequence. And likewise,
1:15:06
Speaker 2: we acquired a player who ultimately then subsequently did get
1:15:09
Speaker 2: popped four using a recreational drug and was suspended. He
1:15:13
Speaker 2: was also grieving it at the time and trying to
1:15:16
Speaker 2: get it overturned. He did not prevail. We were not
1:15:19
Speaker 2: informed at the time. So in one instance we tried
1:15:21
Speaker 2: to do the right thing and talking to the league
1:15:23
Speaker 2: in the end, so we weren't allowed to make a deal.
1:15:25
Speaker 2: That player was ultimately absolved, he was not convicted of
1:15:28
Speaker 2: using a performance enhancing drug. And then on the other side,
1:15:31
Speaker 2: we acquired a player we ultimately lost his services for
1:15:34
Speaker 2: an extended period of time for something that the league
1:15:36
Speaker 2: knew what was going on, but that the league wasn't
1:15:39
Speaker 2: consulted in that situation. So I think the league's hands
1:15:41
Speaker 2: are tied in these instances a little bit more frequently
1:15:44
Speaker 2: than we as fans realize, and.
1:15:47
Speaker 1: As I look at this situation, to summarize, comes back
1:15:49
Speaker 1: to what did Charlotte know, What should they have known?
1:15:53
Speaker 1: And more to the point, what were they required or
1:15:55
Speaker 1: not required to disclose to Miami if they knew anything?
1:15:58
Speaker 1: And then what should my Miami I have known even
1:16:00
Speaker 1: if Charlotte did not disclose it. We talked earlier in
1:16:03
Speaker 1: the show about the personnel and intel gathering machines these
1:16:06
Speaker 1: teams have. Miami is one of the best in the
1:16:08
Speaker 1: business of that, you know, should they have known about this?
1:16:10
Speaker 1: Could they have known about this? That's why where it's
1:16:13
Speaker 1: very difficult to sit in the commissioner seats sometimes that
1:16:15
Speaker 1: as we know with Adam Silver, Rob Manfred and others,
1:16:18
Speaker 1: the reason they get paid a lot of money. Sometimes
1:16:20
Speaker 1: there are no easy answers doing the jobs at that level.
1:16:23
Speaker 1: I really enjoy today's show. He is stad Levine for
1:16:26
Speaker 1: producer Wyatt. I am Ryan McDonough. Come back and join us.
1:16:29
Speaker 1: We have a special Rosters to Rings early next week.
1:16:31
Speaker 1: We're going to try to get it out for you
1:16:33
Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the week. Maybe Monday night
1:16:35
Speaker 1: or sometime Tuesday is the goal. We know the holidays
1:16:38
Speaker 1: coming up, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day late next week, so
1:16:40
Speaker 1: we're going to get you a special Rosters to Rings
1:16:42
Speaker 1: our last show of this year. Tune in again early
1:16:45
Speaker 1: next week, and every week right here, right here, on
1:16:47
Speaker 1: rosters to ringk