Latest / The You Project / #1785 Out of Hell - Mick Hall (Part 1)

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#1785 Out of Hell - Mick Hall (Part 1) · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment the show.
0:02
Speaker 1: Mick Hall, Bloody Mick Hall. Where the fuck has he been?
0:06
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him for a while. That's not true.
0:08
Speaker 1: I saw him the other day, but I haven't seen
0:10
Speaker 1: him here at the You Project typ Central for quite
0:15
Speaker 1: a while. Now. I would guess in our career of
0:17
Speaker 1: almost or our life journey as a podcast of almost
0:22
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred episodes, you've been on maybe seven eight? What
0:29
Speaker 1: do you think?
0:30
Speaker 2: I think somewhere between eight and ten, Craig.
0:34
Speaker 1: You've been on a while, so that's about well, let's
0:37
Speaker 1: say it's nine. That's once every two hundred episodes. So
0:40
Speaker 1: it's not like webisode one. We're not flogging you. No,
0:45
Speaker 1: that was Nathan Burke when I was episode two. There
0:49
Speaker 1: you go, There you go. You fucking you were a
0:51
Speaker 1: pioneer with the U Project. You were a podcasting Do
0:56
Speaker 1: you remember back in the day, Versie II, mik go
1:01
Speaker 1: remember back in the day. I could be wrong, but
1:03
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure we started twenty eighteen. I mean, that's seven,
1:08
Speaker 1: might have even been seven, and I should fucking know.
1:12
Speaker 1: I could just look it up, but fuck it. But
1:15
Speaker 1: even then, I mean podcasts weren't new, but they were.
1:22
Speaker 1: They'd been around for a while and probably half of
1:25
Speaker 1: the population had heard them. But I mean, every man
1:29
Speaker 1: in these dogs got a podcast, now, haven't they?
1:32
Speaker 2: I reckon? But I remember when you first started and
1:35
Speaker 2: you were talking to me about it. I thought, Jean,
1:38
Speaker 2: that's a great idea. I'd never heard of it, and
1:43
Speaker 2: I've never listened to a podcast, and you asked me
1:46
Speaker 2: to come and be a guest on yours, and I
1:50
Speaker 2: had no idea what I was in for, but it was.
1:52
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's amazing come a long way.
1:56
Speaker 1: Well it's yeah, I mean peaks and trust dude. But
1:59
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny how when you when you start
2:03
Speaker 1: something that you don't really know what you're doing, but
2:08
Speaker 1: you're passionate. Right, It's like, maybe even we'll talk about
2:11
Speaker 1: you and boxing, right, because that's been a journey for
2:13
Speaker 1: you and probably about the same length of journey as
2:17
Speaker 1: that you project. But like, obviously i'd come from doing
2:21
Speaker 1: quite a bit of radio, and you and I did
2:23
Speaker 1: some radio together, and I've done a bit of Telly,
2:25
Speaker 1: and I've been in front of a lot of people,
2:28
Speaker 1: but like a live audiences and all that stuff. But
2:32
Speaker 1: you know, when you think, oh, podcasts are not radio
2:35
Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter what we talk about. There's no producer,
2:39
Speaker 1: there's no editing per se, there's no station idea, there's
2:44
Speaker 1: no time checks, there's no weather updates, there's no fucking
2:47
Speaker 1: traffic reports. It's not like people don't realize. I mean
2:51
Speaker 1: probably where you and I worked on sen it's a
2:54
Speaker 1: bit more there's a bit more freedom than a lot
2:58
Speaker 1: of radio because it's all talk music. But even with that,
3:03
Speaker 1: you know, you come out of the news and it's
3:05
Speaker 1: six minutes past, and you've got to go at six
3:07
Speaker 1: minutes past, and you know you've got about fourteen minutes
3:11
Speaker 1: to talk, and then you've got to throw to an
3:12
Speaker 1: ad and then then you've got to come out of that.
3:14
Speaker 1: And so there's all of these constraints and kind of
3:17
Speaker 1: rules and REGs around. But like you and I literally
3:21
Speaker 1: could go all right, as we're recording this, it's two
3:24
Speaker 1: five on a Saturday. We could wrap it up at
3:26
Speaker 1: two thirty, or we could talk till six, like it
3:29
Speaker 1: doesn't you know.
3:30
Speaker 2: What I mean exactly? Yeah, I love it. I love it.
3:33
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of it. We can flow it on.
3:36
Speaker 1: Do you know what I think is a parallel between
3:40
Speaker 1: you and me, Like we had quite different upbringings, but
3:44
Speaker 1: in some ways, and I mean this with the most respect,
3:49
Speaker 1: neither you and I were inherently geniuses or fucking super
3:53
Speaker 1: gifted athletes or I mean, you're very smart in your
3:56
Speaker 1: own way. I truly think that. I mean you built,
3:59
Speaker 1: you built multiple businesses, you made a bit of dough,
4:01
Speaker 1: You've you've you've just figured shit out, right, You've got
4:04
Speaker 1: you've got your own unique kind of intelligence, which you've
4:07
Speaker 1: made work very well for you. Right. But you know,
4:12
Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than you, but not too much
4:14
Speaker 1: older than you, and we were both kind of kids
4:19
Speaker 1: that didn't really totally fit in. Like I was never
4:22
Speaker 1: one of the popular kids. I know you always felt
4:25
Speaker 1: like a bit left out. There's probably a few similarities, right.
4:30
Speaker 2: There are heaps of similarities there, you know. And one
4:35
Speaker 2: of the things I love about just to stay on
4:37
Speaker 2: the podcast then for a second. One of the things
4:40
Speaker 2: I love about the podcasting is that there's what we've
4:43
Speaker 2: come into this today with you with no structure at all,
4:47
Speaker 2: And I love that because this could go anywhere, and
4:52
Speaker 2: it's a bit edgy, it's a bit we've got to
4:54
Speaker 2: be creative but natural, and I love that and I've
4:59
Speaker 2: found that to be the way with business that works
5:03
Speaker 2: for me and also with sporting endeavors I need. I
5:07
Speaker 2: haven't always had a definite structured plan. I've known where
5:12
Speaker 2: I've wanted to head, and I've had to invent the
5:16
Speaker 2: way as I go, and I love it when it
5:19
Speaker 2: works like that for me. That just works with my
5:21
Speaker 2: creative personality, with the way that I like to move
5:25
Speaker 2: and groove, and very much so I see that in
5:28
Speaker 2: you too, create.
5:30
Speaker 1: Do you know there's a real yeah, mate, there's a
5:32
Speaker 1: real there's a real kind of important idea around intelligence,
5:39
Speaker 1: and that is that I'm probably putting you and me
5:43
Speaker 1: I'm better still here to make that.
5:45
Speaker 2: Well.
5:46
Speaker 1: What I mean is, I mean, we know, we know
5:48
Speaker 1: what traditional intelligence is IQ. You know, like you sit
5:52
Speaker 1: and you do the test and you get a score.
5:54
Speaker 1: But then there's something to be said for real life
5:58
Speaker 1: problem solving, adaptability, figuring shit out, working through the fucking
6:07
Speaker 1: nightmares and the bullshit and being able to come out
6:10
Speaker 1: the other side, you know. And then and it's not
6:13
Speaker 1: to say one is better than the other or that
6:16
Speaker 1: is that's the winner over there, and this is the
6:19
Speaker 1: poor cousin. But I went to school with lots of
6:23
Speaker 1: people that when I was at school, I looked at
6:25
Speaker 1: them and I went, that motherfucker is so smart, Like
6:27
Speaker 1: he just he studies for three minutes and gets one hundred.
6:31
Speaker 1: I start for three hours and scrape through right on
6:35
Speaker 1: the same test or five hours. Or when I first
6:38
Speaker 1: went to Monash to start a peach, I felt like
6:42
Speaker 1: a fucking wombat sitting in a cubicle. I'm like, oh
6:45
Speaker 1: my god, how dumb am I? Because I'm around all
6:48
Speaker 1: these genuinely academically and intellectually very bright people, and they
6:54
Speaker 1: are right. But also like some of those people, you
6:58
Speaker 1: throw them a ball and it hits them in the face,
7:00
Speaker 1: you know, or you hand them a crying baby and
7:04
Speaker 1: they haven't melted out. Or you ask them to do
7:07
Speaker 1: a presentation without any slides or any graphs or any charts,
7:12
Speaker 1: and they they're fucked. They don't know what to do.
7:15
Speaker 1: And it's not to say better, worse, good or bad.
7:17
Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, I think intelligence is somewhat context
7:25
Speaker 1: and situation dependent, you know.
7:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree, And I think that for me,
7:34
Speaker 2: intelligence is about well, for me, it's been about understanding
7:38
Speaker 2: myself because if I know, if I'm trying to be
7:44
Speaker 2: somebody I'm not, and I have done that many, many
7:46
Speaker 2: times and a lot throughout my journey, I've tried to
7:49
Speaker 2: be somebody that I'm not and I can't do it.
7:52
Speaker 2: I've tried to fit into somebody else's mold and live
7:58
Speaker 2: in a particular way, and it just doesn't work me.
8:00
Speaker 2: So I've had to find, for want of a bit
8:03
Speaker 2: of a term, what works for me. You know, that
8:07
Speaker 2: I can get through life kind of in my terminology legally, So.
8:14
Speaker 1: That wasn't always the case.
8:16
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't always the case. You know, I've needed
8:18
Speaker 2: to find a way that I can be me that
8:21
Speaker 2: I can you know, survive, not to survive, but thrive
8:25
Speaker 2: and to be able to maneuver enjoy my life and
8:28
Speaker 2: to live in a way that fits with my personality.
8:33
Speaker 2: And also, you know, it helps that helps me to
8:37
Speaker 2: live in a way that fits with my way of learning,
8:41
Speaker 2: my way of enjoying and experiencing and all that sort
8:46
Speaker 2: of stuff. And it's taken a long time for me
8:49
Speaker 2: to be able to come to a point in my
8:52
Speaker 2: life where I think that you know, I'm at about
8:55
Speaker 2: that point now where I'm largely able to do that.
8:58
Speaker 2: Of course I'm not Saint Michael, so yeah, the on
9:03
Speaker 2: the beam one hundred percent of the time. But I'm
9:06
Speaker 2: you know, I largely I found a way that works
9:09
Speaker 2: for me, where I can develop and become the best
9:15
Speaker 2: version of myself in a way that fits me, and
9:19
Speaker 2: it works. Well.
9:19
Speaker 1: I love them, and I think that's well, that in
9:22
Speaker 1: itself is a kind of intelligence. You know. It's like,
9:25
Speaker 1: I've spoken many times about this, and some people throw
9:28
Speaker 1: the academic system under the bus and teachers under the bus.
9:31
Speaker 1: I actually think teachers, and I'm not just saying this
9:33
Speaker 1: because I've got friends who are teachers, I think, considering
9:37
Speaker 1: what they have to work with, teachers are fucking brilliant
9:40
Speaker 1: because you know, the system is the system. You can't
9:44
Speaker 1: make it up. Like you know, if you're a teacher,
9:47
Speaker 1: you work in the Victorian system, and there are certain
9:50
Speaker 1: boxes that need to be ticked and you need to
9:52
Speaker 1: work within certain boundaries. And that's that's all good. But
9:55
Speaker 1: think about this, I'd be by the way, I'd be
9:57
Speaker 1: a terrible teacher. People people have always said me, oh,
10:00
Speaker 1: you'd make a great teacher. I'm like, no, I'm too
10:02
Speaker 1: fucking impatient. And I hate playing in someone else's sandbox.
10:06
Speaker 1: It's like, I just want to make up my own
10:08
Speaker 1: fucking rules, right, I'd be terrible. But think about what
10:11
Speaker 1: a normal classroom teacher has in twenty twenty five. Is like,
10:17
Speaker 1: all right, Michael, well you're the teacher. Here's your thirty
10:20
Speaker 1: students with thirty personalities, thirty different backgrounds, thirty different learning styles,
10:28
Speaker 1: and you're going to teach them essentially to this syllabus,
10:31
Speaker 1: which is kind of teaching them all the same shit
10:33
Speaker 1: on the same day in the same room.
10:36
Speaker 2: You know.
10:36
Speaker 1: It's like, that's hard because what a particular kind of
10:42
Speaker 1: teaching or a kind of lesson or a kind of
10:44
Speaker 1: communication will work optimally or close to optimally for some kids,
10:49
Speaker 1: but it will be fucking terrible for others. But nonetheless,
10:51
Speaker 1: that's the practical reality because we don't have thirty Craigs
10:55
Speaker 1: in the room or thirty Michaels in the room. We
10:58
Speaker 1: have a myriad of different people, you know, So I
11:01
Speaker 1: think back to your point of learning. How you know,
11:07
Speaker 1: I think outside of school. So let's set school aside
11:10
Speaker 1: for a moment. And this is coming from someone who's
11:13
Speaker 1: spent way too long at UNI, right, But I actually
11:16
Speaker 1: think the best learning and the most valuable learning happens
11:19
Speaker 1: not at school. We need school, for sure, we need it,
11:23
Speaker 1: but the real learning and the real growth for a
11:25
Speaker 1: lot of us I should say not everyone, of course,
11:28
Speaker 1: because academics it's different. And for a lot of people
11:31
Speaker 1: the best years of their life for school. But I
11:33
Speaker 1: think generally speaking, for many of us anyway, the real
11:38
Speaker 1: life lessons and the relationship lessons and the how do
11:41
Speaker 1: I adapt and be better? And how do I deal
11:43
Speaker 1: with bullshit and discomfort and how do I solve problems
11:46
Speaker 1: in real time? I mean, that's stuff that you have
11:51
Speaker 1: to learn just in the moment. It's like it's like
11:55
Speaker 1: if I do a workshop on resilience and one hundred
11:58
Speaker 1: people rock up online, that doesn't make them resilient. That
12:02
Speaker 1: just means they've heard some theory about What makes them
12:06
Speaker 1: resilient is when they get off the call and then
12:09
Speaker 1: they step out into life and they start dealing with
12:12
Speaker 1: shit and they apply some of the principles perhaps we
12:15
Speaker 1: spoke about. Then they start to get some results. They
12:17
Speaker 1: fall down, they get up, They do that one hundred times,
12:19
Speaker 1: Bibody Bobby Boo. A year later, they're more resilient because
12:23
Speaker 1: they've done the fucking work right.
12:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent, absolutely, one hundred percent. For me,
12:28
Speaker 2: I found I found school for me, just for me personally.
12:34
Speaker 2: I found it completely useless. I'm really sort of It
12:40
Speaker 2: was very little that I took out of school. But
12:44
Speaker 2: for me, life has been the best teacher. But you know,
12:46
Speaker 2: I went to a different type of school and it
12:48
Speaker 2: wasn't the kind of school didn't want many people to
12:50
Speaker 2: go to. Yeah, and you know, my life was in addiction.
12:55
Speaker 2: I found that to be you know, the biggest build
12:58
Speaker 2: of resilience if you can make it through addiction and
13:00
Speaker 2: make it through anything, but the way you know, to
13:04
Speaker 2: to live a life where you've had just I guess
13:08
Speaker 2: you know, sort of loss of hope after loss of hope,
13:10
Speaker 2: after loss of hope, but you still find a way
13:12
Speaker 2: to keep putting one foot in front of the other,
13:16
Speaker 2: keep trying to claw your way out, and then finally
13:19
Speaker 2: you get your way out, which I did. That was
13:23
Speaker 2: the best, you know, that was the best sort of
13:26
Speaker 2: learning for me. And it didn't stick straight away though.
13:29
Speaker 2: Like I've I've been in recovery you know, from addiction.
13:34
Speaker 2: So if I stay in recovery for another week, Craig,
13:37
Speaker 2: I've been twenty four years clean and sober, and that
13:40
Speaker 2: just thanks mate, That just blows my mind. Right, So
13:43
Speaker 2: it completely blows my mind. But the learnings from what
13:48
Speaker 2: I went through, even in my past as a as
13:51
Speaker 2: a person who was addicted, in terrible trouble financially, you know,
13:57
Speaker 2: in prison, you know, all that sort of stuff. You know,
14:02
Speaker 2: the lessons from all of that are still being realized
14:04
Speaker 2: and and and appreciated and discovered now, you know, twenty
14:11
Speaker 2: four years down the track, I'm still discovering more and
14:14
Speaker 2: more and more and that and and I'm able to
14:18
Speaker 2: use some of the traits that I thought I was
14:21
Speaker 2: a waste of space back then, and I wasn't. But
14:25
Speaker 2: but some of those, you know, some of that character
14:29
Speaker 2: that was locked inside of me to help get me
14:32
Speaker 2: through those desperate times in my life, have now become
14:35
Speaker 2: beautiful assets that I can draw on now and and
14:40
Speaker 2: and they matter, you know, they matter a lot because
14:43
Speaker 2: it helps me, I guess, navigate life and be true
14:50
Speaker 2: to myself. Now. It's when i'm it's when i'm ignoring
14:53
Speaker 2: that stuff that I move off you know, I move
14:58
Speaker 2: off my being, off my center, and I start trying
15:01
Speaker 2: to be something else or someone else, and nothing works
15:05
Speaker 2: well when I do that, I just need to try
15:07
Speaker 2: and be me. And that's all good to say to someone, Hey,
15:11
Speaker 2: just be yourself, but what does that actually mean? Well,
15:15
Speaker 2: you need to know who you are first before you
15:17
Speaker 2: can be yourself. And that's and I don't know another
15:21
Speaker 2: way of discovering that, to be honest, just for me personally,
15:24
Speaker 2: I don't know another way of discovering that unless I'm
15:27
Speaker 2: going through my own troubles and I discover who I am.
15:30
Speaker 2: And you know, boxing for instance, you know, if people
15:35
Speaker 2: don't if people listening don't know, I'm a boxer and
15:38
Speaker 2: I compete. And it's been quite a journey of that
15:42
Speaker 2: very thing, discovering who I am. But it's not until
15:45
Speaker 2: I've been in difficult circumstances in the boxing ring and
15:50
Speaker 2: put under enormous pressure where yeah, I am in danger,
15:55
Speaker 2: I could get hurt that I've been able to discover
15:59
Speaker 2: who I am. I am, who am I really am?
16:02
Speaker 2: I like boxing reveals who you are, you know what?
16:08
Speaker 2: The reveals parts of my character? Am I going to
16:11
Speaker 2: you know, throw the dummy out of the cop? Am
16:13
Speaker 2: I going to crack the ships? Am I going to
16:15
Speaker 2: lose my ship. Am I going to stay controlled emotionally?
16:19
Speaker 2: Am I going to withdraw? Or am I going to
16:23
Speaker 2: you know? Am I going to be able to act
16:27
Speaker 2: and strategize and work my way through a problem. So
16:32
Speaker 2: so this sort of stuff, you know, it's just it's greeting.
16:35
Speaker 2: I love this about the boxing. I love this about life,
16:39
Speaker 2: and I love this about my past that I'm able
16:42
Speaker 2: to discover who I am and have it revealed to
16:45
Speaker 2: me and then I can work on it. And sometimes
16:48
Speaker 2: what I see about me I don't like, I'm not
16:52
Speaker 2: happy with. But that's okay too because when I see that,
16:56
Speaker 2: I can do something about it.
16:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent, mate. I mean, if you never
17:02
Speaker 1: see anything about you that you don't like, you're a
17:04
Speaker 1: complete fucking narcissist.
17:08
Speaker 2: That's a problem, you know, Like I think.
17:11
Speaker 1: And for those who don't have not met in Inverted
17:14
Speaker 1: Commas Mick before. He has a very interesting background. A
17:20
Speaker 1: part of that involved time in prison. I should say
17:23
Speaker 1: times in prison, But like I reckon, if you can
17:28
Speaker 1: come out, I don't know, right, but I know you
17:31
Speaker 1: and I know and I've spoken in prisons, but I
17:34
Speaker 1: don't understand prison of course, anything the way that you
17:37
Speaker 1: would and do. But it seems to me that if
17:42
Speaker 1: you can go into prison, survive for years in prison,
17:47
Speaker 1: and come out and you're not completely fucked up, that's
17:50
Speaker 1: my asterisk. But if you can come out somewhat intact
17:55
Speaker 1: and then genuinely go, not pretend, genuinely go, I actually
18:01
Speaker 1: want to live a good life and do good things,
18:03
Speaker 1: and I actually I don't want to be a crook anymore.
18:06
Speaker 1: I don't want a criminal behavior anymore. I want to
18:09
Speaker 1: change my thinking, habits, lifestyle reality. I think that if
18:14
Speaker 1: you can get through prison and deal with the adversity
18:17
Speaker 1: and the discomfort and the uncertainty and the pain and
18:21
Speaker 1: the bullshit, that must be like a daily fucking thing
18:25
Speaker 1: hanging over your head for years, then stepping outside as
18:30
Speaker 1: long as you can self regulate and not use and
18:33
Speaker 1: not pick up and not drink. I mean, it definitely
18:37
Speaker 1: wouldn't be easier, but it must be fucking easier than prison.
18:42
Speaker 2: It definitely is. It definitely is easier than prison. There
18:46
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that. It's interesting though, you know,
18:50
Speaker 2: because like we sort of talk about prison and we say,
18:54
Speaker 2: you know, if you can get through that, you can
18:55
Speaker 2: get through anything. But it's not just the prison. That's
18:58
Speaker 2: what led up to prison, that's the whole life that
19:00
Speaker 2: was before that that took a person there. Yes, prison's hard, Yes,
19:05
Speaker 2: it's it's shit, you know, and it's it's a real
19:09
Speaker 2: problem if you start to like prison, because then you're
19:11
Speaker 2: really cooked.
19:13
Speaker 1: Right, But how many people start to like prison? I mean,
19:17
Speaker 1: I know there's no but I'd never thought of that
19:20
Speaker 1: till you said that, But I guess some people must be.
19:23
Speaker 1: So what's the word conditioned or institutionalized where there may
19:29
Speaker 1: be even more comfortable in there than out of there.
19:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. That happens quite often. And I mean,
19:36
Speaker 2: you know, let's face it, you go to prison, you've
19:38
Speaker 2: got a roof over your head, you've got three meals
19:40
Speaker 2: a day, and you've got people you know, so you know,
19:44
Speaker 2: so it can become very very comfortable, and people obviously
19:48
Speaker 2: become you know, it's shit madness as far as I'm
19:51
Speaker 2: concerned in prison, But people become very very comfortable in that.
19:56
Speaker 2: And look, I can you know, I didn't become comfortable
20:00
Speaker 2: in prison like that, but I did become comfortable in institutions.
20:04
Speaker 2: So I did a lot of rehabs. I went to
20:07
Speaker 2: over thirty rehabs and detops as. By the time I
20:10
Speaker 2: was twenty five, I was in I'd been hospitalized a
20:14
Speaker 2: few times. I'd also done some psychiatric admissions. And it's crazy,
20:21
Speaker 2: you know. You know sometimes I can walk into it,
20:23
Speaker 2: even to a hospital now to go and visit someone,
20:27
Speaker 2: and there's some little stick part inside and me, he goes, oh,
20:32
Speaker 2: I remember this, This is comfortable being in here. Wow,
20:36
Speaker 2: there's a sick little part that wouldn't mind doing a
20:38
Speaker 2: thing really yeah, great.
20:42
Speaker 1: Wow, what's the attract or what's the Yeah, what's the
20:46
Speaker 1: subconscious attraction to doing a couple of weeks in hospital?
20:52
Speaker 2: It's just just an escape, you know, like it's sort
20:56
Speaker 2: of it's the ultimate escape. There's no there's no requirement
21:01
Speaker 2: for any responsibility whatsoever. And as an addict, as all
21:05
Speaker 2: addicts are, we're escape artists. I want to take responsibility
21:10
Speaker 2: for anything, anything at all, so and we want to
21:15
Speaker 2: hit the escape button, whether that's through drinking, using drugs, hospitalization, legitimate,
21:22
Speaker 2: legitimately pull out of life with no consequences. That's the
21:27
Speaker 2: ultimate for an addict, you know.
21:30
Speaker 1: And that's so interesting. I just wrote that down. Addicts
21:35
Speaker 1: are escape artists. I've known you. For a long time,
21:38
Speaker 1: I've never heard that, and I bet a bunch of
21:41
Speaker 1: our listeners went, oh, that's good. I like that.
21:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, what what?
21:47
Speaker 1: Okay? This is something I've never asked you. But obviously,
21:52
Speaker 1: addictions bad, destructive, we know all of that. But for you,
21:57
Speaker 1: what good or what? What's some thing positive that came
22:01
Speaker 1: out of addiction? Obviously the addiction itself is bad? But
22:06
Speaker 1: is there anything good that came out of it for you?
22:10
Speaker 2: I see that everything good came out of it. For me.
22:13
Speaker 2: I mean I don't see yes. Of course, you know.
22:17
Speaker 2: What happened in my life was tragic and it was terrible,
22:19
Speaker 2: and I did really bad things, and I you know,
22:23
Speaker 2: and I've got very very hurt and lots of people
22:26
Speaker 2: were hurt. Of course, you know, I'm not I'd love
22:30
Speaker 2: to be able to change that, and I can't change it.
22:33
Speaker 2: So let's just put that out there. But that you know,
22:38
Speaker 2: I went through what I went through, and it's made
22:41
Speaker 2: me who I am today. How could I hate that?
22:45
Speaker 2: I don't hate that. But it's only because I've been
22:48
Speaker 2: able to turn it around, you know, Like, the only
22:51
Speaker 2: reason I can say that is because I have turned
22:53
Speaker 2: my life around. I'm not that person anymore. It's helped
22:56
Speaker 2: me develop into the person that I'm meant to be,
23:00
Speaker 2: which is the person that doesn't do that shit anymore.
23:02
Speaker 2: I don't hurt people like that anymore. I don't hurt me.
23:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
23:07
Speaker 2: It's helped me. Ah, It's given me something to bring
23:14
Speaker 2: to the table in that it helps me help other people.
23:19
Speaker 2: My experiences that I went through are valuable experiences because
23:24
Speaker 2: now when I come across someone that's going through anything
23:27
Speaker 2: remotely similar to what I've been through, guess what, I've
23:30
Speaker 2: got the wisdom and the ability to help that person
23:34
Speaker 2: because not only have I been through what they've been through,
23:37
Speaker 2: but I've made it out and I've changed.
23:41
Speaker 1: And sorry, sorry, gone, no, just I was just going to.
23:45
Speaker 2: Say, and I can help them navigate their way through it.
23:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I love the way that you approach
23:53
Speaker 1: because I've heard you speak a lot about this, and
23:56
Speaker 1: we did a little bit of work together for a
23:57
Speaker 1: while in this space. Obviously you're the guru. I'm not,
24:02
Speaker 1: but I love the way that you like your approach
24:06
Speaker 1: and the way that you I don't know, whatever you
24:09
Speaker 1: call it counsel mentor work with people, it's it's the
24:14
Speaker 1: opposite of cookie cutter. Like when I hear you talking,
24:18
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like anyone's in a program. I mean
24:22
Speaker 1: they are, but it's like you're up the front, just
24:25
Speaker 1: banging on like the fucking buff ed that you are.
24:29
Speaker 1: And I think the fact that you come from that
24:32
Speaker 1: you look like you look. He looks like fucking the
24:36
Speaker 1: full on criminal everyone he was but he's not anymore.
24:39
Speaker 1: But he still looks like one. God bless him, heads
24:42
Speaker 1: toe in tats. But you know, because you look like
24:45
Speaker 1: a rough ed But what comes out of your mouth
24:47
Speaker 1: is not that Like what comes out of your mouth
24:50
Speaker 1: is real life. His stories is a bit of wisdom,
24:53
Speaker 1: is a bit of swearing. I think that you know that,
24:57
Speaker 1: coupled with your you know, your your backstory, your life,
25:01
Speaker 1: I think that makes people who might not be receptive to,
25:08
Speaker 1: you know, the expert, the academic expert walking in. I
25:12
Speaker 1: think that makes you way more relatable. But also it
25:17
Speaker 1: probably makes them more receptive to the message because not
25:22
Speaker 1: even the message, the message is good, but because of
25:24
Speaker 1: who you are.
25:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it brings brings weight, and it brings clout, and
25:29
Speaker 2: it does with people that are going through problems. There
25:33
Speaker 2: could be any audience but yeah, when someone's actually I mean,
25:36
Speaker 2: I just find that inspiring from anybody, from anybody who's
25:40
Speaker 2: actually been through severe troubles in their life and then
25:44
Speaker 2: put their hand up and said, hey this and I've
25:46
Speaker 2: made some massive mistakes here. I need you know, I
25:49
Speaker 2: need help, And they ask the help and they turn
25:51
Speaker 2: their life around. They genuinely turn their life around them.
25:53
Speaker 2: And that inspires me. That hooks me in straight away,
25:58
Speaker 2: and I guess people can consense that that's what's happened
26:02
Speaker 2: for me. Yeah, and I love that. And again that's
26:06
Speaker 2: about my pastor also playing a positive role in who
26:11
Speaker 2: I am today because it helps me connect with people
26:14
Speaker 2: really really quickly. It's funny how many people I work
26:16
Speaker 2: with that are trying to recover from addiction. And some
26:20
Speaker 2: of the people that I talk with or that I
26:22
Speaker 2: try and help, they say to me, holy fuck, in
26:27
Speaker 2: one hour, I've learnt more from you and connected more
26:32
Speaker 2: from you than I have with my psychiatrist that I've
26:34
Speaker 2: been seeing for the last three years. Yeah, and it's
26:38
Speaker 2: not once or twice. I hear here pretty much every
26:41
Speaker 2: week all the time, and it's because I've been there,
26:48
Speaker 2: but I've genuinely found a way out too, So it's sometimes,
26:53
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes there's people getting around that have found
26:59
Speaker 2: some recovery and that's good, and they might have a
27:02
Speaker 2: year or two years clean and sober, which is absolutely amazing,
27:05
Speaker 2: it's fantastic, but they don't have the clout yet. They
27:09
Speaker 2: haven't been through significant troubles in their sobriety and had
27:13
Speaker 2: to navigate their way through it without hitting the escape button.
27:18
Speaker 2: Because remembering that adds where the kings and queens of
27:22
Speaker 2: the escape button, we're always looking for the eject the
27:25
Speaker 2: eject button or the eject hatch. We're always looking for it.
27:30
Speaker 2: It's just an inbuilt reaction and to go through, to
27:34
Speaker 2: go through life. And I've been through all types of
27:37
Speaker 2: things in my life in my sobriety life, all types
27:41
Speaker 2: of troubles and good times, and I've found a way
27:46
Speaker 2: to navigate all of that. Take responsibility for myself. So
27:51
Speaker 2: cease being a victim. You know, once I got called,
27:56
Speaker 2: once I got called on a podcast. I can't remember
27:59
Speaker 2: who's a what and I wouldn't say anyway, but I
28:01
Speaker 2: got called an addiction survivor. Well, fuck me, I really
28:08
Speaker 2: vomited everywhere because I just cannot cop that term. I'm
28:13
Speaker 2: not an addiction survivor. That me saying that says I'm
28:16
Speaker 2: a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm empowered. I took
28:21
Speaker 2: responsibility for something that was wrong within me. Okay, addiction
28:26
Speaker 2: is an illness, but I took responsibility for it and
28:31
Speaker 2: treated it. That's different to being I'm a survivor. I'm
28:35
Speaker 2: just lucky to No, I'm not. I admitted there was
28:39
Speaker 2: a problem, I got to help, and I saw it
28:44
Speaker 2: through and I still see it through.
28:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, how many people get how many people get put
28:49
Speaker 1: in front of you or meet with you, potentially dragged
28:54
Speaker 1: thereby a loved one who they've got a problem that
28:58
Speaker 1: they won't admit they've or a problem.
29:01
Speaker 2: Heaps Well over fifty percent of people get dragged in
29:06
Speaker 2: front of me. Yeah, in that way, but that's okay,
29:09
Speaker 2: because look, we've all got to start somewhere and maybe
29:13
Speaker 2: maybe you know in that moment that person isn't quite
29:17
Speaker 2: ready to completely admit complete defeat yet, but it's the
29:21
Speaker 2: beginning of it. It's got to start somewhere. And when
29:24
Speaker 2: someone is dragged in front of me, So fifty percent
29:26
Speaker 2: of people get dragged in front of me and you
29:28
Speaker 2: know they've it's kind of like, well, you know, they've
29:31
Speaker 2: been cornered circumstance. There's not always a loved one or
29:34
Speaker 2: a parent. Sometimes life just corners us. And there's very
29:38
Speaker 2: few people that get up one day and go, oh,
29:42
Speaker 2: you know what, I might knit down to the local
29:44
Speaker 2: rehab and better myself and better the world.
29:47
Speaker 1: Right.
29:48
Speaker 2: That just doesn't fucking happen. People don't get up one
29:50
Speaker 2: day and go, I'm going to make some more positive
29:53
Speaker 2: life decisions. I'm going to kick this habit. Yeah, rubbish
29:57
Speaker 2: doesn't happen. People come see help when they're fucked, when
30:05
Speaker 2: their life has fucking blown up, and if they don't
30:09
Speaker 2: realize it's fucking blown up yet, mom and dad or
30:13
Speaker 2: the missus does yeh, Megan fuck? And so they get
30:18
Speaker 2: someone to come and sit in front of me, and
30:21
Speaker 2: then I, hopefully eloquently point out to them, Tiger, you're fucked. Yeah,
30:30
Speaker 2: you likee A's fucked. People don't come to see help
30:34
Speaker 2: for addiction because everything's going good.
30:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, does it take. I mean, I've heard
30:40
Speaker 1: you talk before about but by the way, everyone, I'm
30:44
Speaker 1: moving forward with this chat with Mick today on the
30:46
Speaker 1: assumption that about seventy or eighty percent of you haven't
30:50
Speaker 1: met Mick, or if you have yet, if you haven't
30:54
Speaker 1: memorized everything he said the last chat. So if some
30:57
Speaker 1: of this is familiar, I apologize. But I many times
31:03
Speaker 1: I've heard you say, you know people or something like this.
31:05
Speaker 1: People have got to hit rock bottom, and so I
31:09
Speaker 1: guess that's when people, you know. The thing about addiction
31:13
Speaker 1: to a point is when you're using and you're in
31:16
Speaker 1: the middle of it. Albeit from an overall perspective, it's diabolical,
31:21
Speaker 1: But in the moment, when you're actually using and high
31:23
Speaker 1: or drunk or whatever, it's fucking amazing right in the moment.
31:28
Speaker 2: It can be although the latest stages of addiction, and
31:32
Speaker 2: that can be the later years. Yeah, it's not amazing
31:35
Speaker 2: even when you are. It's not working anymore. It's not
31:38
Speaker 2: doing right, right, doing what it's meant to be doing.
31:41
Speaker 2: But we're stuck in it. We're stuck.
31:43
Speaker 1: Is that because your receptors downregulate and when you used
31:47
Speaker 1: to take X you get high. Now you take five
31:51
Speaker 1: X to get the same effect, and then you take
31:53
Speaker 1: is it? Why? Why is it not working? Is it
31:56
Speaker 1: because your body just doesn't respond the same or what
31:58
Speaker 1: is that?
32:00
Speaker 2: It's a few different components. So one of the components
32:02
Speaker 2: is the dopamine. Your body can't your brain can't even
32:06
Speaker 2: artificially produce the amount of dopamine. That's quite because really,
32:11
Speaker 2: if we broke addiction down, and most people when they
32:14
Speaker 2: come to see me, they go, I'm an ice addict,
32:16
Speaker 2: or I'm an alcoholic, or I'm a gambler, or I'm
32:18
Speaker 2: a sex addict, I actually don't give a fuck, right
32:22
Speaker 2: because the act out or the substance is just a
32:27
Speaker 2: symptom what we're really addicted to, if you really want
32:31
Speaker 2: to break it down, we're really addicted to dopamine. These
32:35
Speaker 2: substances are just a particular trigger that triggers the right
32:40
Speaker 2: amount of dopamine that releases all this dopamine in our brain,
32:44
Speaker 2: and it is so euphoric that it medicates our thinking.
32:49
Speaker 2: It stops our obsessive thinking, and it pushes down all
32:53
Speaker 2: our emotions and we become just absolutely caught in this moment.
32:57
Speaker 2: So when you first start using drinking and you have
33:00
Speaker 2: your drug a choice, you get the dump of dopamine
33:03
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, Oh my fucking god, everything's wonderful.
33:07
Speaker 2: I love everyone. It's like the guy's got the guy
33:09
Speaker 2: at the pub that's got family at home on a
33:13
Speaker 2: beautiful night, and I walk into the pub and have
33:16
Speaker 2: the first drink or have the first couple of pots,
33:19
Speaker 2: and next thing you know, oh my fucking god, I
33:21
Speaker 2: love this, so fuck going home. I'm going to go
33:23
Speaker 2: home to the missus. I'm going to stay here and
33:25
Speaker 2: drink with this old bloke in the bar. And by
33:27
Speaker 2: the way, old bloke, I fucking love you. I'll go
33:30
Speaker 2: to fucking war with you, all right. Meanwhile, I've got
33:34
Speaker 2: a missus and kids at hand. I couldn't give a
33:36
Speaker 2: shit that are waiting for me because I'm in la
33:39
Speaker 2: la land, because dopamine has absolutely flooded my brain and
33:45
Speaker 2: I'm in bliss. None never wanted to end. So what
33:48
Speaker 2: happens is their brains can't continually produce that for decades
33:53
Speaker 2: upon decades, and so we keep drinking and using all
33:57
Speaker 2: these substances and doing different things. It might be porn,
34:01
Speaker 2: it might be relationships, that might be whatever it is,
34:05
Speaker 2: doing all of these behaviors to try and get that
34:07
Speaker 2: dopamine hit, and it's just not doing the job anymore.
34:10
Speaker 2: It's not medicating our thinking, and it's not suppressing our emotions.
34:15
Speaker 2: Which that's scape. That's essentially what the escape button does
34:18
Speaker 2: gets us out of dealing with that or acknowledging that stuff.
34:23
Speaker 2: And so, but also what happens in later years is
34:27
Speaker 2: that all of the consequences of our drinking, using, punting,
34:31
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, have all culminated over years, and
34:36
Speaker 2: we've been suppressed suppressing it for the years. So we
34:38
Speaker 2: end up with all this baggage, and the baggage piles
34:42
Speaker 2: up so high, and the dopamine level comes down so
34:46
Speaker 2: low that it won't medicate any of it, and it
34:49
Speaker 2: all starts to spill out the top, and that's when
34:51
Speaker 2: people start to get suicidal, homicidal, you know, other psychiatric issues.
35:05
Speaker 2: So all of that stuff happens because of that, and
35:10
Speaker 2: it's a terrible place to be. And you know what,
35:15
Speaker 2: like treating addiction or helping somebody with addiction then stopping using, drinking, punting,
35:22
Speaker 2: whatever it is, that's wonderful. It has to happen, But
35:27
Speaker 2: that's not how you treat addiction. That doesn't fix the problem.
35:31
Speaker 2: All that does is place a person on the platform
35:34
Speaker 2: where we can address the problem. Because remember this one
35:38
Speaker 2: crazy boy, addiction comes in people that doesn't come in bottles. Yeah,
35:43
Speaker 2: addiction comes in people, and you can put the bottle down,
35:48
Speaker 2: you can put everything down with the addiction still in
35:50
Speaker 2: the person. And if it's not treated, we're going to
35:54
Speaker 2: look for the escape button again. And what's the escape button?
35:57
Speaker 2: Anything that can make me escape line life, anything that
36:01
Speaker 2: can trigger that dopamine hit the right amount of dopamine
36:06
Speaker 2: that allows me to medicate everything again. And that's why
36:11
Speaker 2: people move. They change their drug of choice. They can say, yeah,
36:14
Speaker 2: I was addicted to alcohol, but I'm good now, but
36:17
Speaker 2: I'm on the bonds every night, yeah right right, Or no, no,
36:21
Speaker 2: I've stopped drinking, but you know now I'm down the
36:23
Speaker 2: pokings and I don't drink, but I'll put your money
36:25
Speaker 2: in the pokies.
36:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:29
Speaker 2: Or it just shifts and changes. So we call it
36:31
Speaker 2: swapping the wig for the bitch, all right, and we're
36:34
Speaker 2: just the bitch and shape shifts because the person's only
36:38
Speaker 2: looking at treating the symptom. They're only looking at treating
36:41
Speaker 2: the substance it's taking that that's not treating the problem.
36:47
Speaker 1: I get a team. I'm just interrupting me and Mick
36:50
Speaker 1: because we were we were quite verbose for quite a while.
36:55
Speaker 1: So I've decided to separate this into part one and
36:58
Speaker 1: part two. We'll be back to my Bura with the
37:00
Speaker 1: rest of the conversation. I hope you're enjoying it.