Latest / Voyage Clinics Podcast / How to Build Emotional Intelligence | Jarom Ball on Feeling, Healing, and Connection

Transcript

How to Build Emotional Intelligence | Jarom Ball on Feeling, Healing, and Connection · Voyage Clinics Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to the Voyage Clinics Podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Dr. John Sanders, family physician and friend
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: of the community. Today, I just made that up, that
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: was awesome.
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: You're welcome.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Today, we're gonna be talking about emotional wellness and introducing
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine, Jaron Ball.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: He's a member of our team now at Voyage Clinics.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: We've been friends for a while and the opportunity came
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: up to maybe take him on and join our forces.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: He's got a huge heart and he loves to help
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: people grow in their emotional and mental wellness states. And yeah,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: we just want to welcome Jerem. Thank you Jerem for
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: joining our team and welcome to the podcast. This is
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: our second podcast.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: This is our second podcast.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to do this as like an introduction
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: to you, to our clients, our patients, and then also
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: to our community. You've been in our community for a while.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: How long have you lived in kind of the Utah
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: County area?
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: So I moved here in 2001 to go to BYU. Cool.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: And just kind of been here ever since. Yeah.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Awesome, man. And tell us about your journey into mental
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: wellness and where you're at now, what your credentials are,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and kind of tell us about your service offering.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. So, I mean.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: When I turned 30, the idea of becoming a therapist
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: had never even crossed my mind, you know? And so
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: it's interesting, you know, kind of going through my own
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: mental health journey through my 30s and having that, you know,
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: kind of shape me and help me kind of find this.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: I got into therapy just through my own journey, my
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: own struggles with mental health. realized that I've kind of
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: always been a therapist, always been everybody's therapist. People have
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: always come to me to talk about stuff, you know?
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: So I used to be a special ed teacher and
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: probably two or three times a week, people would like
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: teachers and staff would come up to me and be like, Hey,
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: are you busy after school? And I'd be like, nah.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: And they'd be like, can I come by? Totally. You know,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: and so we'd sit there at my desk and we'd
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: talk for like an hour. And like, I realized when
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: I was in school, like, oh, I was being a therapist.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Like I was literally, they were coming to me with
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: their problems and I was helping them solve them. And
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: so as a therapist, I, um, you know, I work
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: with all populations. I, uh, really enjoy getting to know people,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: like really getting to, to connect with people.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: And I find that when I'm able to connect with somebody,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: we're able to leverage that connection into some serious growth
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and progress. I work with all different kinds of issues.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Trauma is my favorite thing to work with, but I
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: work with depression and anxiety and OCD and all the
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: different things.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And coaching people up just in general too. I
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: think often we think that we, you know, I got
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: to have a big problem to see a therapist. And
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: so I'd love to kind of get into that space
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: just a little bit. But before that, I want to
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: hear about your journey as a special ed teacher. So
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: tell us about that. You worked in kind of special
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: needs and did that for a while.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: It's actually a much longer story that I won't tell
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: the whole thing.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I was all through college.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I worked with people with disabilities and I loved it.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: And that's what I wanted to do the rest of
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: my life was work with people with disabilities. Um, so
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: I became a special ed teacher. I did that for
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: three years and I loved it and I would have
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: done it for the rest of my life. But, um,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: my daughter was born. So like three years into my
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: special ed career, my daughter was born with Down syndrome. Oh, um,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: Which was wild.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I thought it predated.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: No, man. Wow.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: And so, like, it was this weird thing where, like,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I can't even really describe what the feeling was. But
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: it was just kind of like, this is complete. And
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: it wasn't like, I can't do this at home and
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: at school. It was nothing like that. It was just
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: kind of like this complete, this sense of completion. Um,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: and that's, that's actually how I eventually became a therapist because,
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: you know, from that point, you know, I, it took
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: me two years, something like that. Um, and I was
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: just kind of underemployed and just kind of bounced around
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: doing different things. I started working at a drug rehab
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: and then. it was at the drug rehab where therapists
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: started coming up to me pretty quickly, like probably within
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: a week. And they were like, Hey, have you ever
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: thought about becoming a therapist? Uh, and I was like, no.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: And they're like, well, you're really good, you know? Anyway. Oh,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: but you wanted to hear more about the, uh, being
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: a special ed teacher. Yeah. Like it was amazing. It
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: was the, so I worked at a school called Dan
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Peterson school. kind of the highest acuity kids in the
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: entire district were, we had them. I, you know, lots
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: of kids in wheelchairs, you know, we're talking kind of
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: two to three year old functioning level, lots of diapers
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: to change, briefs to change and stuff like that. And
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: it was just, it was amazing. I did lots of,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: you know, kids who would, get really angry, you know,
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: I would do lots of wrestling with kids to protect
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: them from themselves and, and protect other people from them
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: and stuff.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Well, what a beautiful journey, man. What a beautiful journey.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: And I think you and I are similar in quite
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: a few ways and, you know, the kind of disarming
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: presence and very nonjudgmental and very open. And, um, you're
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: so easy to talk to and easy to open up to. And,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I think it's a sacred, special calling to be in
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: these healing spaces, these emotional, mental, physical wellness spaces as
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: we're in. And I'm glad that some of those folks
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: at that rehab center kind of nudged you in that
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: direction because you've got beautiful talent there. And it sounds
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: like it was part of your own personal healing journey
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: as well to kind of discover parts in yourself and
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: kind of figure things out and And you were late
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: to this profession later, like non-traditional, they call that, right?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Non-traditional student. But how cool is that, you know, to
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: be able to do that? I want to talk about
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: like your favorite spaces. How, if someone were to want
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: to engage with Jerram, what are some of the things
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: that you could help with?
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: You mentioned.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: A niche in trauma, but then there's also like lower
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: acuity things, anxiety, depression. coaching and mental wellness, there's a
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: lot of stigma around mental wellness. And at Voyage Clinics,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: we kind of dissolve a whole bunch of stigma and
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of dogma in the healthcare industry by
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: just doing things different.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: And it's beautiful.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: And I love the way Voyage does things.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so good.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I love it. So because we have such a unique
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: kind of relationship with our clients and with our community,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: we can really.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: we can do.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Things that don't necessarily have to play the same game
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: as the insurance game, right? And for instance, like someone
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: might be struggling with a communication skill. Like you just,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: my wife and I don't talk very well. Every time
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: we talk, we get defensive and we suck at it
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: and we end up fighting and it's dumb. And so
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I would love some help in that space. let's just
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: speak to just that. Like there's no ICD-10 code. There's
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: no diagnosis with that crap. It's just like, gosh, I'm
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: like not showing up well. And I don't know what
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: it is, but there's something there. And, and maybe as a,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: as a husband or even as a, as a spouse
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: or his wife, we, we come in and we're just like, Jerem,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: help me do better.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's kind of a top
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: down approach and a bottom up approach to um to
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: this kind of stuff uh top down approach is kind
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: of addressing the symptoms right that's skills work that's uh
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: you know emotional management strategies that's you know just just
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: developing um the ability to manage.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: The problem yeah right yeah some folks just lack the
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: communication skills they don't know like hey, one person decides
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: to be the sender, one is the receiver, and the restater,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: and kind of like just fundamentals, 101 of communication. So
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: that's the top-down, kind of like brain, like heady, but
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: also very important, like to have those skills.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: It's even understanding what communication problems are. Like it's this
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: blanket statement that people just kind of throw at relationship issues, right?
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: And so like, especially with... Some of my young men
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: that I work with, it's kind of literally just teaching
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: them what communication is. It's not just saying, hey, I'm
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: going to go hang out with my friends. right? It's
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: actually sharing what is happening underneath, right? And, you know,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: obviously that's kind of deeper communication, but it's kind of
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: foreseeing how our partner is going to react to something
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: and choosing a proactive method of addressing it. Right? Before
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: it's a problem instead of after it's a problem. And so, yeah,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: a lot of it is just teaching what communication is
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: and then just some communication strategies. Right? Even things as
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: simple as, you know, text your spouse three times a
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: day type of thing.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Connect. Totally.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: It's all about connection. Cool. Bottom-up approach is more let's
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: get underneath the issue. Like, let's kind of... Dig out
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: the foundation of how you actually connect with the world
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: and see if there are termites in there. See if
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: there are, you know, see if there are, you know,
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: water damage or anything in the foundation. See what the
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: problem is that is getting in the way.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Can you give me an example of that? Because I
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: can think of a couple, like, perhaps in a communication scenario,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: we have an undertone to our conversation. our own self,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: maybe a verbal dialogue or a nonverbal dialogue that we
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: keep on uttering nonverbally in our heart that maybe we're
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: not enough. And so when someone, when we show up
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: to communicate, if there's any degree of conflict to that communication,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: then it's hugely defensive, big stonewalling and like, screw you.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: So it's like under the Whoa, the way I showed up.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Trying to understand how it is that the person got
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: to be that way in the first place, right? Because that's,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: you know, skills work is great. It's very important, you know?
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: But in terms of actually creating change, you know, like
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: skills work, it has to be maintained, right? It has
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: to be something that's practiced. It has to be something that,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: you know, like, and just like anything else, you know, unless...
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: you're really doing it purposefully with a lot of commitment
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: for a few weeks, it's probably not going to stick.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: But when we dig underneath everything, we're able to, yeah,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: like you're saying, okay, what does show up for you
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: when you try to communicate? Is it shame? Is it resentment?
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: What are the millions of things that... could be coming up,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: what is coming up for you? Yeah, lots of times
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: it is shame, right? It's how am I going to
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: be perceived in this conversation? How am I going to be,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: you know, am I going to lose connection?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Basically.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and recognizing that there's emotions underneath the emotions. As
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: we try to communicate and there's rage and defensiveness and
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: anger and all these things, Those are primary emotions. There's
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: often secondary stuff underneath that that actually comes from a
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: different space that we might not even see.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And I mean, Dr. Robison is a friend of mine, Reid.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: He's a psychiatrist. And we spoke about one phrase he
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: likes to say is... Triggers are friends to be followed.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: And so if we're, if we're in this communication pattern
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: and we're getting this trigger and often we don't even
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: know what triggers are, like maybe we can, maybe we
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: can frame out a couple of those, but like one
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: would be like just anger.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I'm like super angry. And then I get really defensive.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Well, those are triggers. And why did we get triggered
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: in that sense? Well, let's, let's follow that back and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: let's try to find where that came from. I think
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: we're all in our own beautiful emotional intelligence journey. And
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I would say we're all beautifully broken. We all have parts,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: parts and pieces that sometimes we are not completely cognizant of.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: It sounds like the work that we were talking about,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: which was like more skills work is like more head work,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: more head space. It's almost like cognitive behavioral therapy. It's
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: kind of like, it's maybe like, um, thinker brain, right?
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: It's like your prefrontal cortex or cerebral cortex thinker, like
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: analyze and, you know, skills and practicing and you get better,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: et cetera.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: And that's really cool and that's important.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: But underneath that is the heart work that you're talking about.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Some of the deeper spaces that those triggers come from
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that we don't always see their origin of that might
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: affect the way that we show up in our relationships.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Totally. Well, and that gets us into emotion.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And the emotion and the way emotion affects all of this.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Right. What is an emotion? Right. It's this signal that
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: is sent out to the body. Right. To the body,
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: not to the mind. It's the signal that's sent out
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: to the body to say something's wrong. Protect you. Yeah.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Something's off.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Well, something is happening.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Sure. Right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Something could be wrong. Something could be very right. Yeah.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Right. And we experience it as this sensation in the body.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: The problem is, is then our mind gets involved because
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: our mind is supposed to interpret it and say, oh, okay,
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: this sensation, I get this sensation when I see a scorpion, right?
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: So next time I feel this sensation, I'm going to
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: have this automatic reaction. Maybe it's to a scorpion, you know,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: but either way, it's not going to feel good, right?
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: And So a lot of emotional intelligence is just being
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: able to tune into your own body and be like, okay,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: what is happening? And keeping the mind out of it, right?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Being more curious about it. And so that's another thing
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: that I do a lot is I actually teach people
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: how to tune into their bodies. Because if you're able
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: to recognize some consistent thing, say you're communicating with your wife,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: And you guys just have this breakdown around the dishes, right?
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Just hypothetical.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: That happens every night.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: Sure. No, I'm just kidding. So, like, chances are you're
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: receiving the same sensations every time, right? Your body is
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: reacting to it in the same exact way just about
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: every time. And your mind is coming in and interpreting
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: that to whatever story you have, right? And it will
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: keep that same story. And it will use the evidence
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: that is built up to kind of almost like a
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: flashing light. Hey, this is the problem. This is the problem.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: This is the problem. But if we can become more
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: aware of, okay, it's just a sensation, right? All of
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: a sudden... And if we can get curious with that
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: sensation instead of automatically trying to understand the sensation or
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: do something with the sensation, like, it takes about 90
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: seconds for that sensation to get processed and, you know,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: released from the body. And babies are a great example
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: of that. They don't get in their mind about whatever
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: it is that they're feeling. Right? They feel it. They
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: express it. And when they're done, they're done.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. Right? If we could just be like babies again. Like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: there is so much that gets in the way with
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: our minds.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And the way that we start to overthink and triple
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: think and, yeah, we really mess things.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: Up with our emotions and our minds. Do you have,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I want to circle back to this because I think
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: this is so, so important.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: How do we get back to being babies?
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know that it's possible, obviously, but maybe there's
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: a way that we can more beautifully collaborate with our
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: egos and our default mode networks and the way that
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: we show up.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And maybe there's a better.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: a higher degree of emotional intelligence that we can recognize when,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: holy crap, I'm overthinking this. And it's really making me
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: feel bad. And I need to take a breath. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I just need to go for a walk and breathe
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: through this for a minute and recognize maybe I'm triggered.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And then do some work with somebody like you to
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: kind of figure out why I got so triggered about
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that thing. But I guess that is the essence of
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: emotional intelligence.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, it is. But like, again, how
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: do you actually achieve it? How do you actually improve
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: in it? And that is, you know, the big question.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: And there are different modalities that say this is the
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: way to do it. Truth is, is that there are
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: a million different ways to achieve emotional intelligence, right? Because
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: there are a million different ways to experience emotions. Our
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: problem really comes when our mind gets involved and says, oh,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: I don't like that. We're not going to feel it.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: We're not going to acknowledge it. We're just going to
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: move on. That's a real problem. What is that called?
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Just pushing it away? I mean, avoidance.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Avoidance.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: A lot of guys do this. I probably did this
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: for years. As doctors, we're surviving in the trenches. I
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: think as doctors, you are taught to do that.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: And we don't honestly have a ton of bandwidth.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Like, somebody dies.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And you're there yeah and you you have a bunch
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: of things to do around that death and pronouncing the
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: death and then processing and then writing up the paperwork
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: and there's a whole bunch of stuff.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: And to really emotionally.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And this is after working on the person who died.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: This is after. For a while. Compressions. This is after.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah. A really quite a traumatic thing for you.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: But we don't look at it. We push it away.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And then, and then at some point we got to
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: kind of look at that eventually. I think, I mean,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: I've done some really heavy processing in the last few
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: years and it's been really, really satisfying to like, actually
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: feel some of those moments and go back to them
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: and be like, oh, that was important to feel.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: That was important.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: And I missed it.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: And I didn't get that opportunity.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I want to speak to the guy thing, because I
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: think in general, women speak the language of emotions beautifully
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: in general. And that's, I hate to make generalizations.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: So real quick, before we get into that, let me
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: share just a few thoughts that are here. The first is,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: The feminine is expressive. It is expression oriented. It is
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: process oriented. The masculine is outcome oriented.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: I don't care how you get it done. Just get
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: it done. Yeah. Whereas the feminine is very much, okay,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: what is the journey of getting the thing done?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Cool. Right.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: It's that way with sex. It's that way with careers.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: It's that way in so many different things.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And so I'm not even talking gender here. I'm just
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: talking about masculine and feminine. On top of that, you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: just the different ways that we interact with emotion, right?
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Since men are so outcome-oriented, we're much more likely to
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: just push it down because whatever's happening in the process
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter. The outcome is the only thing that matters.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Get the job done. But the problem with just kind
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: of pushing it down, not acknowledging it, and this is,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: you know... You're the research prof. You could probably find
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: some research about this. But like... Like... That emotion. That
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: unexpressed emotion. After you have a patient die. Right? Because
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: it's going to be traumatic. It is a human being.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: And with how loving you are. With how much you
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: care about people. Of course it's going to be traumatic
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: for you.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of energy in that. That experience. Right?
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: that unexpressed energy has to go somewhere and it goes
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: into the body. Like I am convinced that so much
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: of the chronic pain, so much of the chronic injuries,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: just so many of the physical things that you see
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: patients for are really more tied to unexpressed emotion.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: The body keeps the score.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a bunch of books about this and
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Even epigenetics, the study of why a genome starts to
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: produce a protein that then causes breast cancer in this person,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: but not that person. They both had the same genes.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of it has to
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: do with this. I think being good at feeling and allowing...
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: allowing emotions to come to you, to pass through you
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and not holding onto them and definitely not squirreling them away.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Certainly.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: But like, just hold it and stay in that season
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: of that emotion. And it's hard, but just look at
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: it and be in it, breathe through it and then
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: be done with it.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: There's finality to it.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I did hospice for four years where I
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: was able to help a lot of families, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: help family members die.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: And.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: Well, in many ways, you're acting as a death doula.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: In hospice.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: If you're doing your job.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: With heart, at least.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I like that you said doula, because there were two
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: times in my career that were the most raw and beautiful,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: and that was birth, because I delivered babies for about
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: a decade. And then.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: death and.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Both of those have so many similarities well and they're
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: so sacred so sacred yeah both of them are so
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: stinking sacred yeah yeah but one is joyous and the
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: other one is traumatic you know i think they're both
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: joyous honestly they're just they're both traumatic and they're both
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: joyous because they're both really hard yeah both of them
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: yeah really beautiful and hard um I'm glad we got
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: onto those moments. I think as guys, sometimes we have
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a propensity and I think it's modeling from our parents
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: and our parents' parents, from some of the war generations
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: and some of the stuff that our parents' parents went through.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: And it's okay. It just means that they're more of
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: the rub some dirt on it and suck it up
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and don't be a pansy generation.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And that's okay.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: But there's a higher level of emotional intelligence that's also important.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: And that is being open and aware and curious that
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: it is okay for guys to feel shit and to
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: have pain and to cry and to suffer, but then
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: also to have tremendous joy and to laugh and to smile.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: And I think in this bottling up and pushing away
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: our emotion generations, we've created a model around masculinity that
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: is not very emotionally intelligent.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: And in fact, the model celebrates, uh, emotional unintelligence. Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: If you're a guy, so just talking to our listeners
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: and maybe some guys are out there listening to this, hopefully, um,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: What are some signs that maybe some of our clients
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: or some of our community could use some love in
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the emotional intelligence space in meeting with someone like you
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to just.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Talk about it?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Your background is in marriage and family therapy, but that
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: means you do not just relationship and all that, but
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: you do a whole bunch of other things too. You've
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: got skills in a whole bunch of areas, but. Arguably,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the reason why we're on this earth is really to
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: have relationships, have emotions. Like literally, an emotional intelligence is
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: like the key to all of that.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Well, and think about it. Like even emotions, the emotions
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: that come, we have a relationship with those, right? They're unwelcome.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: For the heavy emotions, for the painful emotions, they are
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: unwelcome relationships.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: We are not open to them.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: We're taught that.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: There's something wrong if it's affecting you. There's something wrong
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: if you can't just pull yourself up by the bootstraps
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: and just keep going. Yeah. There's something wrong with you.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: And that's great for the people who are built that way.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: You're talking epigenetics, right? I would say it's not great
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: for anybody. It works a lot better for people that
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: are built that way. For people like me, like that,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: it doesn't work at all. You know, I, I'm an
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: incredibly emotional human being. Um, I'm somebody that like, I
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: feel things deeply, like even like problematically, I feel things
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: so deeply. Um, and so, you know, it really is
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: about figuring out how to help people accept their where
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: they're at and accept that they do need to feel
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: it some more. So like, like, uh, my ex-wife, um,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: her and her family, they're, they're, they're people that, that
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: they just kind of move on, you know, something will
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: happen and they just kind of move on. And that
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: was always a hard thing for me because like, I
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: tried to move on. I tried to become one of
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: those people as I was in that family. And I'm
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: just not one of those people, you know, I'm somebody
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: that I have to feel it. I have to, uh,
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: process it. And, you know, to be able to do that,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: you have to have the safety, you know, the time,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: the space, the permission to be able to make that happen. And,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: you know, therapy is a great way to do that,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: but there's also a lot of personal time, you know,
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: alone time that you have to be choosing into feeling
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: things to be able to release whatever is coming, you know?
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: That's cool, man.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: What are some other ways that our clients might utilize
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: you and your skills and just kind of developing themselves
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and then their relationships and their lives? What are some
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: other ways?
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, the number one, like as a relationship therapist,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: the number one relationship that I worry about, that I
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: talk to people about is relationship with self. Relationship with
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: self is one of the least nourished things. relationships that
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: we have it is the least we're nourished for for
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: most of us we in fact we completely ignore it.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah probably not even recognize that we're doing it we're
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: just pushing everybody else's needs above our own and not
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: treating ourselves.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Treat yourself treat yourself um no if you come see
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: me like chances are in that first session i will
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: ask you about your relationship with yourself um because i
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: guarantee there's work to do do on it cool yeah
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: And quite frankly, just addressing that alleviates a lot of anxiety,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: alleviates a lot of depression. and alleviates a lot of
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: the kind of lower level, um, issues because, you know,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: are you always self condemning or are you always having
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: self compassion? Right. And if you're always self condemning, if
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: you always have this bully just beating the crap out
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: of you, um, Like, of course you're going to get depressed.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Of course you're going to have anxiety. Of course you're
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: going to use whatever went wrong in the past to,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: you know, extrapolate into a really terrible future, which is
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: depression and anxiety. And so, yeah, it is by far
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: one of the most effective ways that I have found
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: to be able to help people with, you know, I
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: guess non, like... trauma-inducing type of experiences.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: You know, I think having a healthy understanding of who
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: we are and our self-worth and maybe recognizing some of
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: those negative self-talk dialogues that we have been believing or
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: engaging in for years and years and years. And just
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: recognizing that they're there, that they're working on you, pushing
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: you toward anxiety or depression or any of those emotionally
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: dysregulated states and then just reframing them or I'm not
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: sure what you do in your magic, but somehow working
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: on that space and as you heal your relationship to
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: self and some of those self-talk dialogues and you're able
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: to nullify them, then you show up better for your
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: other relationships.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: So that makes sense to me.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Well, absolutely. Well, I mean, When you're a– there's something
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: called negative sentiment override. And consequently, there's also something called
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: positive sentiment override. And basically, negative sentiment override is no
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: matter what you do, you're getting it wrong. Right? What
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: people tend to develop in their relationship with themselves is
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: a very negative sentiment override.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Can't do anything right.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh. what is your mind attuned to? What is it
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: trying to catch? Well, if we're always being negative with ourselves,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: it is catching the evidence of what's wrong with us.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: It is, that is what it's looking for.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Uh, and it will find it.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Is this why gratitude journaling is, is super effective?
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: A million percent. Cause you just flip the tracks. Well, it's,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: it's not flipping the tracks. It's actually building the hardware.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Ooh. Right.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: Again, I, I, I don't know the studies or anything,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: but we have all these neural pathways that kind of
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: are attuned to finding the evidence of whatever it is
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: that we kind of tell ourselves a lot, right? And
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: the problem is that we don't have positive neural pathways.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: And so a gratitude journal, affirmations... things like that, they
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: do a good job of actually building that hardware, creating
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: those neural pathways that actually give you a fighting chance
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: to have a positive reaction, automatic reaction to whatever the
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: stimulus is, whatever the thing is that happened instead of
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: just an automatic reaction, an automatic negative reaction.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Dude, we have to build the neural pathways to positivity.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: So I have for a long time kept journals and
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And I often start my journal off the same way.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: And it says, today was a beautiful day. Love that.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't always beautiful because some days are rough.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And I might even pull in some of the rough, right?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I'll document some of the hard things. But I always
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: pull in the positive because there's always something to be
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: grateful for. And there's always some beauty in all of that.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: And as such, I'm pretty positive, pretty resilient. Yeah. And
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that I was just building those neural pathways.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I haven't journaled for a while, but maybe I should
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: start again.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, but you also live that way.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: You also live in a very positive way. Like, that's
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: one of the beautiful things about coming and seeing him
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: as a doc is that, like, you, I mean, that's
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: how your heart works. forward in your approach. It's such
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: a positive way. Like being your friend is fricking rad.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: It's the best. Cause like, because you don't just admire me.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: You tell me what you admire about me. And that
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: doesn't happen a lot, you know, um, maybe from mom
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: and dad, maybe from spouse, maybe from, you know, different,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: but not usually from friends and especially not from, from
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: guy friends.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: And so, yeah, it's this beautiful thing. And so, I mean, yeah,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: journaling will always help you. It will always help you.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: Expressing gratitude will always help you. Expressing admiration will always
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: help you. But it doesn't always have to be the
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: same thing. It's just getting those reps in of practicing
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: positivity instead of practicing negativity.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I love it. I'm excited for folks to, um, to
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: start engaging with you from our community, from in all
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: the ways you do a beautiful thing with this dancing
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: in your kitchen movement. Um, I I'd love to get
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: into that a little bit. I think we're getting a
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: little low on time, but, but let's just, let's touch
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: on that just briefly towards the end here. Um, you're
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: passionate about movement and the, and how movement can help
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: release emotions and help folks and stuff.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: And, I think it's a neat thing.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: It's definitely not therapy or anything, but maybe it is,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: you know, just in a different form and in a
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: different way and in a different outside boxes kind of format.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Certainly. Yeah. Well, first of all, I am thoroughly convinced
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: that dance is the most powerful medicine that we have.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: I'll just state that. I love dancing, by the way.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: Because we all have access to it.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Mostly Mexican dancing. No.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: But like it does so many different things. It challenges us.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: You're going to be uncomfortable if you're trying to express
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: something through dance.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Something that. So the reason why I do these these
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: videos with me dancing in the kitchen is I want
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: people dancing in the kitchen and your kitchen. And so
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: what it is, it's an invitation for you to give
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: yourself permission to move in the safety of your own
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: home where nobody's going to be seeing it. The thing
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: that I say often is be big for you. So
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: don't feel like you have to be Fred Astaire. Don't
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: feel like you have to actually know how to even dance.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: It's just about moving your body. So earlier you asked...
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: How can we all become more like babies? How can
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: we return to be like babies? And truth be told,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: it's play. It's being playful. Yeah. Right? Play continues to
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: be one of the most powerful resources we have to learn,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: to grow, and to problem solve.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And get outside the ego.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: You're just playing.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Because you're just playing.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: Well, how do we as adults play? You know? Dance
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: is by far one of the most accessible forms of
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: play that we have as adults.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: I was thinking pickleball, but dance is fine.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, but pickleball is more of a sport. Yeah.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: It is structured. Yeah. And the kind of play I'm
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: talking about is very unstructured. Right? And, you know, it
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: leads to things, you know, it leads to emotions. it
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: leads to all these different things. And that energy, again,
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: I talked about earlier that like, I'm just thoroughly convinced
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: that it's real energy that gets stuffed into the body.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: And that real energy, when, sorry, when there's an unexpressed emotion,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: there's real energy that gets stuffed into the body. And
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: the easiest way to unlock that energy is to move. Um,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: So I talk about the physical body, the mental body,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: and the heart body, the soul, the soul body. And ultimately,
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: most of the stuff in the mental health space, it
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: is a negotiation between the soul and the body. And
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: the mind is just getting in the way. It just
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: causes so many problems in that process. The body knows
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: what it needs. In order to release it, right? If
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: you've ever watched on YouTube or anything an animal that escapes,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: maybe it's a wildebeest that escapes a lion or something.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: What you'll see is you'll see it kind of lay
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: there for a while, but then it'll have this crazy
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: shaking and tremoring, right? It's a release of that energy, right?
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: We don't do that. Our body is trying to do that.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: It wants to release that energy. i'm i'm assuming that
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: you wouldn't be asleep on those nights when you would
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: have a traumatic death yeah right i i'm assuming that
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: those next few days were really rough for you yeah
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: physically mentally emotionally all the different ways and part of
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: it is is yeah you've got all this extra energy
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: in you that didn't get expressed Anyway, so again, the
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: question is how do you actually access any of that?
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is the big question in therapy in
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: general is how do you actually access the stuff that
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: needs to be worked on? Because the brain is really
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: good at fencing away the things that will help. I
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: could go into that for a while, but....
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: There's a documentary here, for sure.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of all the tribes and all the thousands
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: of years of dance and movement that has been integrated
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: into our societies.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And how in America.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm half Mexican and a lot of the
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Mexican cultures are all about these dances, corridos and cumbias
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: and all these, and they're part of their lives. They're
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: part of their weddings. They dance till three in the
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: morning and it is lovely. In Europe, they have different dances.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: In Russia, there's different folk dances to all the different
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: tribes and aboriginal people and minority groups in there. And
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Asia has all these things. And I think movement and
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: dance and processing emotions, there's a documentary there for you
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: Well, no, I'm already creating it. Oh, cool, cool. I
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: want to be the Anthony Bourdain of dance. Yeah, cool.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: For real. Well, that's awesome. Because dance is used.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: To express grief. It's used like, like, like culturally dance
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: in so many different places. It's used to express grief,
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: to express joy, to express achievement, to, to celebrate achievement,
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: to move on to the next phase of life. You know,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: dance is used in so many complex ways.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: It's beautiful. And it helps. Right. And so I went
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: to Zambia in 2007 to do some humanitarian work and,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: You know, I got to go to a funeral and like,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: they weren't necessarily specifically dancing, but these women, they were just,
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: these women, they were just like weeping and wailing and
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: rolling on the ground. It's this very, just not just
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: visceral thing, but this very kinetic thing, this very, very,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: very movement oriented thing. But at the end, I'm talking
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: marathon endurance here that these women had. Three or four
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: hours of just this weeping and wailing and everything. At
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: the end, a little bit of singing. You heard a
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: little bit of singing in there. And they came dancing
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: out in this really joyous, beautiful thing. And Kathy Headley,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: this beautiful woman that started this organization, she told us,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: that night she's like, they've had to become experts. So
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: this is 2007 when, you know, the anti-retrovirals weren't necessarily
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: online yet and fully online. Um, so Sub-Saharan Africa was
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: still just being crushed by HIV AIDS. Um, anyway, she
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: said they've had to become experts in grieving, you know,
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: cause they're going to have to do this again in
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: three weeks. Um, And I think there's something, there's a
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: really beautiful lesson there.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: That we as westernized humans have lost.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: You know, as we've lost the roots of our tribal cultures, right? Yeah.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Especially we as white people. And dance. We don't have it.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: And dance is a, dance, yeah. Maybe hip hop.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Maybe. Huh?
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Maybe hip hop.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Breakdance hip-hop.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: We've had some cool stuff. But I think the important thing, though, yeah,
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: is it's not necessarily about learning how to dance.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: Like, if you ever jump on a video with me,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: Thursday nights and Sunday nights at 10 p.m. Mountain on
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: TikTok Live.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Anyway.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: What's your tag sign? It's Kaladin-ish Kaladin. K-A-L-A-D-I-N-I-S-H. That's funny. Yeah. Kaladin. Yeah.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: You know who that is? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: I am Kaladin.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: I believe it.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Like, I am thoroughly convinced that Brandon Sanderson was following
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: me around when he created that character. Because, like, we
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: are the same human being in so many ways. He's
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: a little bit more broody than I am. But, like, yeah. Anyway.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: So....
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: In those videos, like I'm not teaching you how to dance.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not telling you to move your feet in a
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: certain way. What I'm saying is be big for you
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: and use the space that you have.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Feel it.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: Feel it.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: And whatever comes up, be brave, be courageous, allow it
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: to come up.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's going to be joyous and fun. Sometimes it's
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: going to freaking suck.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Um, because it's going to bring up something that you
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: don't want to feel that, that, that, That anger you
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: felt 10 years ago when your sister said that horrible
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: thing about you and you didn't express. When I say express,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: I don't mean like freak out at your sister, but
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: whatever expression of that emotion that needed to happen at
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: the time it didn't happen. Well, that movement can unlock
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: that feeling, that energy. And the beautiful thing is that
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: it doesn't just unlock it. It also processes and releases
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: it all at the same time.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Jerem, thank you so much. This was super cool.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: And I appreciate your candor and sharing with us your
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: skills and some of your passions and how you're passionate
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: about movement and dance and emotions and wellness. And yeah,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: for those listening, I hope you learned some cool things.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: And I hope you'll utilize Jerem. He's a great guy
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: and a good friend. And come in and check him
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: out at our clinic, voiceclinics.com. And he does all the things,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: emotional wellness, relationships, coaching, coaching. Just life things as well.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to start some groups as well.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, groups as well.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: In September, we're going to start some groups and they're
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: going to be really well, you know, affordable. Yeah. Very,
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: very affordable. And group work is great to be able
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: to kind of work on some things. Cool.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Jerem, thank you for coming on our podcast today.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Matt. This has been great. Thank you.