Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 42: What is the Connection Between Lust and Anger?

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42: What is the Connection Between Lust and Anger? · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey y'all, I'm excited to be catching up with you today.
0:02
So got a thought for you slash question.
0:06
So when we think about triggers and we think about sexually
0:09
acting out often what we're talking about is loneliness and
0:16
lust, but not so much anger. So we're going to be talking
0:21
about that a little bit more today.
0:22
And we brought along an expert welcome to Beyond the Facade
0:29
podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
0:31
I'm thrilled to have you join me in the space today.
0:33
What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
0:36
triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
0:39
Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
0:42
moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
0:44
commitment to self that reveals a rich connection and meaning
0:48
that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
0:50
time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
0:53
What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
0:56
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
0:59
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
1:02
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
1:04
immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
1:07
Let's get started. Welcome to the podcast,
1:12
everybody. I have Jean back.
1:14
And Jean, welcome back. Glad to have you.
1:16
Hey, thanks, Luke. Glad to be back.
1:18
Jean, I don't know. I think I've told you a little
1:20
bit, but that last podcast you did, it went over really well.
1:24
I don't know. Did I give you very much
1:26
feedback on that? You did a little bit, yeah.
1:29
OK, the people, the things that people really resonated with the
1:32
off top of my head was is this your ability to be able to get
1:35
vulnerable and share your sexual experiences and some some stuff
1:40
inside your history? And people are like, wow, he is
1:43
really open. And that was really helpful
1:45
because I think I was able to glean and probably lose some
1:49
shame just listening to Gene talk.
1:50
Do you have any response them for the men that said that kind
1:54
of thing? I just love that you could see
1:59
yourself in my story. And yes, just honor your
2:02
journey. Yeah, absolutely.
2:05
OK, so let's jump into the subject here for those of you
2:07
who don't know Jean. Jean is a coach here at Choose
2:10
Recovery Services. So he works with men.
2:12
He does a lot of what we call story work.
2:14
So you can go feel free to scroll back and look at some of
2:17
the previous podcast you did and jump onto our site and learn
2:21
more by checking out his profile.
2:23
Gene, anything you want to say about yourself for people that
2:24
don't know you? I just am humbled that you're
2:27
listening to us and yeah, I care deeply about this kind of work
2:31
and have a lot of respect for the listeners who are are really
2:35
taking their recovery seriously. I can tell you really love to
2:38
talk about yourself. You're like, can we just move on
2:42
to the subject loop? OK, let's do that.
2:46
And I'm the same way, Gene, one of the things I want to talk
2:49
about to set us up in this podcast for just a moment here
2:52
is we're going to talk about this word lust and also anger in
2:57
this, I think 3 day and a half to four out of our listeners out
3:02
of 10 are women and are they're the people that were been
3:05
betrayed. So just recognize this can be
3:07
really painful. And I want to have empathy
3:10
around that for the person that hurt my partner of in reality,
3:14
what actually happens inside of our brain, These cycles are
3:18
painful to listen to for both people.
3:21
So when we think about triggers and we think about sexually
3:24
acting out, loneliness comes up and lust comes up, but not so
3:29
much the anger piece. So I know you're passionate
3:31
about this gene. Do you want to kick this thing
3:33
off for us? Yeah, and perhaps I could start
3:36
us with a little bit of a story did to paint a picture.
3:40
So my wife and I, we like to do date nights and we switch off.
3:45
Who? Decides what we do for date
3:48
night and I decided we do an at home date night.
3:52
The kids are asleep and I decide to start practicing guitar to so
3:58
my wife and I could sing together and my wife's much
4:00
better at singing than me. So I get to be like like a
4:03
dancing with the stars or something.
4:04
Just like a novice who gets to sing with the Rockstar and I
4:07
really love it and she loves singing.
4:09
So I pick a song that I know she's going to love this song,
4:13
and I'm practicing it for an hour.
4:15
And we decide we're going to do date night at 99 PM and at 9 PMI
4:22
see she's still working on her computer.
4:23
And I say, hey, how much time do you need?
4:27
Oh, sorry honey, I'm almost done.
4:29
Just give me a little bit more time.
4:30
I'm almost done. OK, For me, that's good because
4:33
I'm not great at guitar. So this is more practice time
4:35
for me. So I just keep practicing guitar
4:37
and then a little bit more time passes and I say, hey, how are
4:42
you doing over there? She's still working on her
4:44
computer and oh, I'm, I've got the customer service person.
4:49
Sorry. They're putting me on hold and
4:51
they've transferred me twice. And really this will be wrapped
4:54
up soon. So I'm waiting.
4:56
But I'm like, OK, I'm like, I'm going to keep practicing guitar.
5:00
We're going to have a great duet.
5:01
It's going to be great. And then she comes, sits on the
5:05
couch. It's a close to our our bedtime
5:08
at this point. And she just looks at me and
5:10
says, I'm sorry, but if you're planning a song that we're going
5:14
to sing together, I just, I'm really not in the mood.
5:19
And my heart drops and I just say, OK.
5:26
And that's about all I could get out of my mouth.
5:31
And right here I kind of decide that day night is cancelled.
5:37
And my wife didn't want to cancel day night.
5:39
She said perhaps you could do something else, something
5:41
simple, maybe read in bed, do something together.
5:45
But I just canceled good day night.
5:48
I was so angry. And what was under that anger is
5:52
a disappointment because I had this fantasy about the we would
5:54
be singing this duet and this fantasy was now not going to
5:59
happen. And that made me angry.
6:00
So my wife was going to get no nothing from me, no goodness
6:04
from me, no love. And I was just very cold after
6:08
that. So here we can already see that
6:12
there's a fantasy of wanting something, but then as soon as I
6:16
don't get what I want, what's right there is anger.
6:20
And who's going to pay? My wife is going to pay.
6:24
And how am I going to pull it off that it's her fault?
6:28
Because it's her fault. She was on this, she was working
6:30
and she said 9:00 and then 45 minutes later she was still
6:35
working. So it was her fault that that
6:38
I'm angry. So she kind of deserves what
6:40
she's about to get, which is just nothing, nothing good for
6:42
me. Did you?
6:43
Are you levels of awareness around she deserves this?
6:47
Are you were you aware of what you're feeling?
6:51
Oh yes, it was probably not until hindsight that I could
6:54
actually identify just how much I was blaming her for my anger
6:59
and that I was withholding. It actually took a while for me
7:02
to be able to name that what I'm doing in this moment is a form
7:06
of relational violence where all of a sudden my wife still wants
7:11
to have date night. She still wants to spend time
7:13
together. But I'm so fixated on my fantasy
7:15
that I've been lusting for that I'm just pissed that I can't get
7:20
it. And I'm just going to screw it.
7:22
The nights over the nothing more will come from me.
7:25
And this actually is violent. And I named it as violence
7:28
because otherwise I I'm a minimizer.
7:30
And I would say, well, you know, yeah.
7:33
That was her. That was on her.
7:34
She decided to work late. Well, OK.
7:37
Can I highlight a couple things? Gene, Is that OK?
7:39
Yeah, yes. All right, so this started in
7:42
fantasy and you just said something.
7:45
You're like, I lusted after that fantasy, but the fantasy wasn't
7:48
sexual. Right.
7:50
It was more like a romantic relational fantasy.
7:55
So what do you how would you describe lust?
7:57
Because I think we're used to talking about lust that just
8:00
existing in sexuality. How would you define lust?
8:03
Yes. So I'm defining lust as a desire
8:08
that has become obsessive, possessive, consumptive, almost
8:14
like a fixation, that is is kind of rigid.
8:18
We lust over romance. We've lust over like a certain
8:24
kind of relationship. And in this case, I'm lusting
8:27
over a certain kind of date night.
8:29
And when things don't go my way, what's right there?
8:32
Lust is feeding into my anger. But I don't want to get us 2 off
8:36
track from where you're having us go today, Jean.
8:38
But we talked a lot about objectification.
8:41
So objectification was already taking place.
8:43
This is what's going to happen. This is how my wife's going to
8:46
respond. By the way, super cool.
8:48
You guys's dates night consists of a guitar and a duet.
8:51
I know it didn't happen that it is so much different than date
8:54
nights that I'm used to. I'll deal with that level of
8:57
shame. If you saw my strumming, it's
8:59
pretty subpar, but but I know that in hindsight, I wasn't
9:05
really being loving because if I was really being loving, then I
9:09
very quickly would have moved to be with my wife where she was
9:13
at. And OK, yes, let's do a
9:15
different date night. Let's do a spa day together or
9:20
I'll give you a massage or that would be loving.
9:23
But actually I can see that this is lost because when I don't get
9:27
my way, what I fantasized about I, I become totally
9:31
self-centered. Wow, So what was the environment
9:35
that needed to exist for that to happen to like how?
9:40
Why was it lust and not something else in that moment?
9:43
Yeah, it's, and it's such a good question, Luke, because when I
9:47
was preparing for date night, there was something very sweet
9:50
about it. That's.
9:52
What I was thinking. What a sweet gesture.
9:55
What? A sweet gesture.
9:56
And perhaps it is important to note that lust, it is, has to
10:02
grab onto something of a like a good desire.
10:06
So I had this really good desire on my heart where I wanted to
10:11
harmonize like literally with my wife.
10:14
But then there was a sort of perversion where when she didn't
10:20
want to do what I wanted, then all of a sudden I I fixated on
10:24
me. Yeah, which is not uncommon.
10:28
And I'm thinking about the last episode we released was around
10:31
ADHD, or at least a couple of them ago, and how that's a hyper
10:35
fixation. Like ADHD, you think somebody
10:38
couldn't focus with it, but there's hyper focus.
10:41
There's like this, the rest of the world doesn't exist, right?
10:45
It's hyper focus. And anyway, just draws me to
10:47
that. Yes.
10:49
You're drawing us to how in this case, I'm really hyper focused
10:54
on the fantasy and what I want, and I've lost sight of what's
10:59
actually my wife's desire. Because when you're in
11:01
relationship, you've got to dance with that.
11:04
Both of you have a desire. And is there a way to dance with
11:09
both desires? Yeah, Yep.
11:11
That makes sense. OK.
11:13
So tell us how this evolves, would you Gene?
11:17
Yes. So I got angry at my wife and
11:23
here I start to actually my lust starts to kick in.
11:29
So lust, you can see feeds into anger, but then anger feeds into
11:36
lust, which will then feedback into anger.
11:39
So if you can actually start to see the cycle, it's quite
11:42
vicious. In this case, my my lust starts
11:45
to kick in and I start to have more sexual fantasies.
11:48
But these are fantasies that I'm having with myself as almost
11:54
like a form of revenge against my wife so.
11:58
Can I jump in there? Yes.
12:00
And if you're about to do this, I'm sorry, but slow it down for
12:03
us. How do you go from anger to lust
12:05
again? What?
12:06
What happens? Yeah.
12:08
So in anger, if the anger is used vibrantly or aggressively
12:14
where you're really cutting off someone, especially if it's
12:16
you're cutting off your partner, all of a sudden you're going to
12:20
find yourself feeling empty. And even though your anger may
12:25
find some level of like, well, at least I got pay back.
12:29
You're now going to be alone and you're going to feel very
12:32
distant. And that all that emptiness and
12:35
deprivation will be the breeding gap ground to need to fantasize
12:39
because we fantasize about what we don't have.
12:40
So in this case, I'm like fantasizing about again, having
12:45
that connection, but there's anger that's underlining the
12:50
connection because I've cut off my my wife at this point.
12:55
There's this part gene where I'm distracted for a moment.
12:58
So if you could bear with me where you said cut off, it cut
13:04
my partner off. I want to also allow words to
13:07
exist. Like I wall off, like I shut
13:09
down, like I shut myself off because anger and cut off are
13:12
like almost aggressive in nature.
13:15
And I think about a lot of the people that I'm around don't
13:18
really come across as like aggressive and they don't see
13:21
themselves as aggressive. But cut off or walled off is
13:25
what we're talking about. Cut off in walled off are
13:28
interchangeable. And anger which flows from that
13:33
is technically just how would we define anger where it's, I don't
13:37
want to minimize the gene and make it less intense, but how
13:40
would somebody relate to it more?
13:42
So my question makes sense. Yeah, it does.
13:45
So the most common way that I will show anger and use it
13:50
against my wife is I will do that.
13:53
I'll create a wall. I'll simply withhold.
13:56
I'll withhold my honesty. I'll withhold my vulnerability
14:01
and transparency. Yep, no, Yep.
14:04
She just will not get anything from me.
14:05
I just won't be loving. I won't be kind.
14:08
I won't be empathetic. I just.
14:09
There'll be a wall. So you're describing that as
14:12
like anger in a response. Yes, all.
14:18
Right. Thanks.
14:18
Thanks for letting us slow that down there.
14:21
Yes, and and I would even name that walling off that
14:26
withholding is like an intentional wanting to suffocate
14:32
my wife. Like she will not breathe in any
14:35
of my love. Damn.
14:36
Punisher, Punisher. And I just do it in a way that
14:40
is kind of socially acceptable where I don't look very bad.
14:45
Like, I don't look like a bad husband for sure.
14:48
But really, in this moment, I'm being an incredibly bad husband.
14:53
I mean. It's extremely abusive because
14:57
like we think about I'm just going to go to the store that
14:59
you shared. You started with it, not me, but
15:02
you're you could come across as like such the victim here of
15:06
like, oh, I was trying to create a song in the duet and then I
15:09
shut her off and wall her off. And it's not my fault.
15:13
It's a very powerlessness to that.
15:16
That's what you've come across as.
15:18
But yeah, it's to punish and hurt the person that hurt me.
15:21
Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah.
15:24
We're going to take a quick break for a moment.
15:26
I want to let you know of some things that we have coming up at
15:28
Choose Recovery Services. At Choose Recovery we do a lot
15:32
of intensives, but there is one in particular that I am so
15:35
excited about. It is the rebuilding US
15:38
intensive and this is for couples who have been through
15:42
betrayal but have put in a lot of work and are ready to dive
15:46
into some deeper emotional work, but they feel like there's
15:51
something missing, that they need that extra support to take
15:54
their relationship to the next level.
15:56
So this intensive, it's going to be in Phoenix, AZ March 26th to
16:01
29th. So it'll be a gorgeous time of
16:03
year depending on where you're at in the world.
16:05
Come get some sunshine. What we'll be doing is we'll be
16:09
using tools from Emotionally Focused Therapy, doing the Hold
16:13
Me Tight workshop intermixed with lots of experiential
16:16
activities, things like drum making and rappelling and
16:23
different activities that are going to allow you an
16:28
opportunity to really see each other work together and come and
16:32
build something brand new. Because that's what we're doing
16:35
here is we're not trying to go back to the way the relationship
16:39
was. We're not trying to go back to
16:40
old patterns. No, we're trying to break those
16:43
patterns that weren't working and do something different and
16:46
get that deeper level of intimacy.
16:48
So if that's something that you would like in your relationship,
16:52
you can go to chooserecoveryservices.com under
16:55
intensives. You'll see the intensives for
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the whole year. But this one again is the
16:59
Rebuilding US intensive and you can come hang out with myself
17:03
and Hallie Roderick, Morgan Ellsworth and Luke Gordon.
17:06
It will be a small intimate group so you will get lots of
17:09
one-on-one support along with being able to connect with
17:13
others who are on the journey with you.
17:16
If you would like to join us, we would love to have you register
17:21
by February 28th. You can use the promo code
17:24
Rebuild US 500 and you'll get that $500 off again.
17:28
It's just through February 28th and cool thing about this.
17:33
We also have payment plans available if needed, which you
17:37
can reach out to info@chooserecoveryservices.com
17:40
to learn more. Let's get back to our episode.
17:44
So we have lust that feeds into anger, and then we have anger
17:48
that feeds into lust. So you really have to be paying
17:51
attention to both, both. Where there's lust, you really
17:54
got to look, well, where's the anger here?
17:55
And where there's anger, you got to be on the lookout for lust.
18:00
I remember during my young days, I had no friends in high school,
18:06
and this was a really tough time for me.
18:08
And I don't consider myself an angry person.
18:11
At many places in my life, I would say that I didn't even
18:15
have anger. But really that anger was just
18:17
so subtle and so pushed down that I just couldn't recognize
18:22
it as anger. But where I saw the anger was in
18:25
my sexual fantasies. And so I I have this a lot of
18:30
anger at my classmates in high school and I would actually have
18:34
fantasies where I would humiliate classmates in my
18:40
fantasy. So you can see here that anger
18:43
is creating the kind of breeding ground for lust.
18:48
Lustful fan. So good, so good is in so
18:54
important to recognize and I'm thinking about the type of
18:58
pornography that is often viewed.
19:01
So much of it involves a power dynamic, right?
19:04
Whether it's rape porn, lost porn, not lost porn, force porn,
19:09
those types of things, familial porn, family based porn where
19:13
somebody has influence over another person.
19:15
It's in the essence to get my needs met and in powerful ways
19:22
to take my power back. Yes.
19:24
And I think you put that so well, Luke, because if that is
19:27
the kind of porn you're watching it or fantasies that you're
19:30
having, this kind of violence kind of porn, you need to be
19:35
looking at anger. And if you're looking at anger,
19:38
you need to be looking at where do you feel utterly powerless
19:41
and helpless in your life? What if I don't?
19:44
What if I don't feel like I'm angry, Gene?
19:47
What if I don't? What?
19:48
I'm like, Yeah, I don't. I can't be anger, but I'm
19:51
watching stuff that literally is around power dynamics.
19:54
Is there any kind of prompt that we can give ourselves to open
19:58
that door like a little bit? Because it's kind of scary.
20:02
Yes, and as I said before, I didn't even consider myself an
20:05
angry person until it all started coming out and I
20:10
realized, Oh my goodness, I'm actually very angry person.
20:12
It's just was coming out in such subtle ways that I just never
20:16
thought of myself as an angry person.
20:18
But we all have anger, and I think you put it so well, Luke,
20:22
in a previous podcast about resentment, that it's so easy to
20:26
be in denial about our anger. But if it's coming out in
20:30
fantasy, that's your anger, and it's coming out sideways.
20:36
And that's where not to take away responsibility and just to
20:40
give some empathy to the betrayed partners that are
20:42
listening to this. That's why it's so important to
20:45
understand the person you're choosing to be relational with
20:49
of what their battle is. And not that you have
20:52
responsibility over it, but you have an understanding of the
20:55
work that will need to be done to create safety in that
20:57
relationship. Because if they don't have
20:59
awareness over why the anger exists, how and why would it
21:03
get? Why would it change?
21:05
I think awareness around it is really important.
21:09
And the other piece to that is normalizing, but not condoning
21:15
or accepting power based dynamics in in sexual behavior.
21:20
I think a lot of people are going like, I'm so alone with
21:23
this. I'm really the only person that
21:26
people thinks a good guy that is involved with the content that
21:30
is based like we're talking about today.
21:33
Right. And it is so common and
21:36
sometimes not even the norm of what someone will watch like
21:40
they'll watch a lot of other kinds of porn.
21:43
But then there are times when they're really feeling that
21:46
powerlessness, where their anger just wants to come out in the
21:51
form of sexual fantasy. Yeah.
21:54
And it's so cool, I'll use this word because of how I feel about
21:58
the work. To be able to understand why you
22:00
watch what you watch and then all of a sudden have it taking
22:03
on new meaning. Like you said, I didn't know I
22:05
was angry until I actually started process stuff and I was
22:07
angry. I can't imagine what it was like
22:09
trying to get traction before that point.
22:11
Yes. And I think you put it well to
22:15
normalize, not condone necessarily as really what we're
22:20
looking at is someone who is dealing with powerlessness and
22:24
likely a vast amount of disappointment in their lives
22:28
and that disappointment needs to be grieved.
22:33
Oftentimes, anger will be right in the way of grief.
22:38
Wow, that was our last podcasting.
22:41
That's the one we did. I we did earlier.
22:44
You know, the last one that Choose Recovery Services
22:45
released was grief. Like it has to be a part of the
22:49
process. You can't move through it
22:50
without grieving that. Yes, so important, yeah.
22:54
OK. What's other parts of this
22:57
dynamic that we should know about Gene?
23:00
When we talk about anger, I think it's really important to
23:04
notate whether it's anger directed at your partner or
23:10
others, or is it anger directed at yourself.
23:14
And that's going to help us see where can you expect that your
23:19
lust is going to be moving. If you're, if you feel like it's
23:22
your partner, they've done something to make you angry, You
23:26
really got to be on the lookout for entitlement that you
23:29
actually feel some level of well, they, they're always the
23:32
one controlling our sex life. They've got all the power and I
23:37
have these needs and they don't care about my needs.
23:39
So all of a sudden we're moving into the entitlement to sexually
23:44
act out because I've got to get my needs met.
23:47
I need some excitement in my life and suddenly there's a form
23:51
of revenge that's happening against my partner because
23:56
they're the one that's controlling my needs and
24:00
blocking me from getting my needs met.
24:03
Blocking me from getting my needs met.
24:04
I can't get them met. They're in the way and if they
24:07
would only get out of the way or comply, then my needs would get
24:10
met. Yeah, they're powerless place.
24:13
Right. Yeah.
24:14
So how do you know the difference between I'm actually
24:16
feeling anger for myself versus I'm feeling anger for my
24:19
partner? How do you know the difference?
24:22
Yeah, you look at is there self hatred at play?
24:26
Is there an impulse to punish yourself?
24:29
And this for my sexually acting out history, this was very
24:32
common where I just really hated myself.
24:35
And it came out in my lust that my lust was largely driven by me
24:41
just feeling like this big puppy who was worthless and just
24:47
needed to be punished. So I would I have a story
24:52
actually where I'm a business partner and we were doing a
24:57
business together in college and I had so much excitement and joy
25:01
that came from this partnership. And we're sitting down at lunch
25:06
and he just looks at me and he knows that I'm going to not like
25:10
this, but he says I can't do it anymore.
25:13
I'm going to focus on a different business with a
25:16
different friend. And in that moment, and I just
25:20
said something like, Oh yeah, it's good, don't worry, really
25:23
just minimizing all my appointment.
25:26
But actually I'm so angry. And but I wasn't angry at him.
25:30
I was really just angry at myself, angry at myself for
25:34
being the guy who didn't get chosen for again being the guy
25:39
who the other person didn't want to be friends with.
25:42
And I really just felt like the other, whoever the other friend
25:45
is was just they were just there was more to them and that's why
25:50
he wanted to continue investing all his time and energy with
25:54
that friend, but not with me. So in myself loathing, I went
26:00
straight to porn. I just wanted to in some way
26:05
say, you know, no one cares anyways, what does it matter?
26:09
Screw it. Yes, it was really a form of
26:13
self hatred that drove me to porn and sexually acting out
26:17
compared to the entitlement. If you're at you, you're finding
26:21
your in anger at your partner. So this is something that you
26:25
really just got to be on the lookout for, the role of Shane
26:30
and Anger working together against yourself.
26:34
So highlight for us again, because I found that to be
26:36
really powerful. The problem with misplaced
26:39
anger, Why is it so problematic if it's misplaced?
26:43
Yeah, when anger is misplaced, it's it becomes so messy.
26:48
You're you all of a sudden are harming your partner and harming
26:54
yourself. And so if you're harming your
26:56
partner, you're just going to feel very lonely and isolated
27:00
and distant. And then if you're harming
27:02
yourself, then you're that shame will just viciously be consuming
27:08
you. So it, yeah, that anger has to
27:12
be discerned. We actually have to separate the
27:14
anger. And I say separate because
27:16
there's a lot of shaming of anger.
27:19
And a lot of people believe that they should not experience
27:22
anger, that if they act on their anger, it's always a bad thing.
27:27
But really, at Angers Core, there's a longing for the
27:31
restoration of justice, repairing what is broken.
27:36
So we can actually separate anger out into that.
27:40
There's a part of anger that actually is good.
27:44
I like to call it a righteous anger.
27:46
And this part of your anger, it wants to be your biggest
27:49
advocate that actually wants to advocate for your dignity, your
27:52
worth. So when you feel your dignity
27:54
being attacked, actually your anger is going to come out and
27:57
you'll often want to attack back.
27:59
But you got to recognize that actually your anger doesn't want
28:02
to kill off your partner. It wants to advocate for your
28:05
own dignity. And if you can do that, you can.
28:08
If you can allow your anger to advocate for your dignity, then
28:11
you can actually get back in connection and empathy with your
28:15
partner. What does that righteous anger
28:17
look like? How do you how are you
28:19
advocating for yourself? Because that sounds like scary
28:23
stuff to talk about. Because it's like, how do I show
28:26
up? Yeah.
28:27
What does right singer look like?
28:28
Can you give us examples? Yes, and, and it's such a a good
28:32
question because I'm not talking about being defensive.
28:35
There's actually a difference between advocating for your
28:37
dignity and defending yourself, which is really very common when
28:42
partners argue, and being defensive, usually not helpful,
28:46
but anger is like the emotion that is a catalyst for change.
28:51
So if you can actually use your anger, your anger wants to say
28:55
no to dysfunction. How it advocates for your worth
29:00
is simply it's wanting to fight for you.
29:04
So to see yourself as someone worthy to fight for may take
29:08
work. And quite frankly, you're going
29:10
to have to deal with your shame. And that will would be probably
29:15
a whole podcast series around shame and shame resilience.
29:18
But in this case, can you use your anger to say, actually, I
29:24
am angry that there's this dysfunctional dynamic in my
29:30
partnership. And if you can see that you
29:33
actually can join your partner's anger.
29:35
What's very common is for a betrayed partner, will will be
29:38
angry at the sexually acting out.
29:40
Can you actually join your partner and say, yeah, I'm angry
29:44
about that too, that that's a betrayal of myself when I
29:47
sexually act out and it's a betrayal of my partner?
29:51
We both need to be angry at this and to use that energy to say no
29:59
to the dysfunction. That's cool, this is game
30:04
changing. Like if you if you join with
30:08
your partner in anger, and I recognize that can feel like in
30:12
a moment that can feel like you're hurting yourself more by
30:15
not standing up for yourself and joining them, but that's not
30:18
really the case. I love it when people say anger
30:21
is like the bodyguard of another emotion.
30:23
It's something more more tender. And I think about giving anger
30:28
that voice. If I do it in a healthy Safeway,
30:32
it's actually taking good care of me because it's pointing out
30:34
something that really, really matters, that's really
30:37
important, that hasn't been addressed and isn't getting
30:39
addressed. So yeah, I love what you're
30:42
talking about. And I think that's so well put,
30:45
Luke, as often times when I give space to a client to allow their
30:50
anger to get that voice of what it's trying to fight for, often
30:55
times the anger will move aside and that other emotion will be
31:01
right there. And, and often times that client
31:03
will break down in tears as there's so much to grieve in the
31:07
vast amount of disappointment that they're experiencing.
31:11
You know what it reminds me of Anger.
31:13
Kind of reminds me of that. For Halloween last year, I did
31:18
that thing where I bought dry ice and I poured a pitcher of a
31:23
root beer and I put the dry ice in the root beer.
31:27
And then, but it was only like the pitcher was only like half
31:30
full. And then I put a lid on it and
31:33
all you could see was the dry, the, the fog or whatever you
31:37
call it, like right there at the top with the lid on it.
31:40
You couldn't tell there was any root beer in there.
31:42
And then when you let the lid off, then the fog kept coming,
31:46
but you could see the root beer now.
31:48
And I think about anger being that thing where there's
31:51
something really valuable underneath it, but you have to
31:53
take the lid off 1st and then you can see what's underneath
31:56
it. But if you leave it there, you
31:58
can. It's just going to be covering
31:59
up something that actually really matters.
32:02
But it draws attention to what actually matters anyway.
32:05
I had that visual in my mind as I listen to you talk about that.
32:08
Yes and it does really matter and I just want to acknowledge
32:14
the challenge with anger as it is such a dangerous emotion as
32:18
well and it has done so much harm.
32:21
So it can be so scary and and fear and anger are very related
32:26
emotions. So I just want to acknowledge
32:31
that and that we're really encouraging a listener to
32:37
separate the anger. So not just to indulge in the
32:41
anger which had, if you're not separating it, a sort of violent
32:47
desire to cut someone off. And that's often your partner.
32:51
But it's not what all the anger wants to do.
32:53
So can you actually separate it and keep the part that wants to
32:56
advocate for your dignity, advocate for your partner's
32:59
dignity too, and be a catalyst for the catalyst for change and
33:04
saying no to abuse, no to neglect, no to harm the in the
33:09
perpetuation of harm. So solid.
33:13
This has been really enlightening today.
33:15
Thank you so much for joining us again.
33:17
I really appreciate the message you always have to share and
33:21
your energy and what you deliver it.
33:23
And I know our listeners, I've gotten a lot of feedback from
33:26
them. They do too.
33:27
Any other closing thoughts, Jean?
33:29
I feel like this is messy work, whether you're in addiction
33:33
recovery or betrayal trauma recovery, it's such messy work.
33:37
So I just hope that whichever camp you're in, that you can
33:44
have some grace, that there will be messiness, that you'll be
33:47
messy, and that that's part of the process.
33:50
Yeah. And don't do it by yourself.
33:52
Please don't do it by yourself. Show open, show up in an
33:55
environment with somebody like Gene.
33:57
That stuff is to be let loose with somebody that's safe, that
34:01
creates that safety so it can look different.
34:03
I think often I wanted to do that on my own and couldn't,
34:07
couldn't, couldn't. So anyway, we're here to support
34:11
you. Thanks again, Gene.
34:13
Thank you, Luke. Hey guys, I am super excited to
34:17
talk to you about our latest intensive that we have coming
34:20
up. It's called Men's Journey to
34:21
Wholeness. Prior to this, many of you
34:23
attended Unmasked and Men's Journey to Wholeness is the next
34:27
level of recovery. It's more of phase two recovery.
34:31
It's a relationship with self so we can have a relationship with
34:33
others. You're welcome to join us in the
34:35
beautiful Spanish Fork area and we are going to be having this
34:39
on March 12th through the 14th. But let me tell you a little bit
34:42
about it. What's a three day intensive?
34:44
There's going to be a lot of transformational connection
34:47
going on. That's going to be the focus.
34:49
We're going to dive into the work.
34:51
We're open to all men. So whether you attended the
34:53
Unmasked intensive or not, it's OK.
34:56
But the focus is we're going to be building deeper relationship
34:59
with yourself. A lot of times men are trying to
35:04
kill that part of them that made these horrible choices.
35:07
They don't like that part of them.
35:09
We're going to identify that part of us and we're going to
35:13
allow us to see something that we haven't seen before.
35:17
We're going to learn about how your protective parts protect
35:20
and how they've shielded you from things and how they're
35:22
still shielding you from things. And we're going to release some
35:26
of those burdens. The principles are inspired by
35:29
the book No Bad Parts. There's going to be activities,
35:32
there's going to be experiential workshops, there's going to be
35:34
hands on exercises. There's going to be a lot of
35:37
guided support. There'll be a couple surprises.
35:40
You won't be sworn to secrecy, but it's going to be pretty fun
35:43
to see everybody engage in the type of activities we have
35:46
coming up for you. And let me tell you what a fair
35:49
outcome might be if you decide to do something like this.
35:53
By the end of the intensive, you're going to be able to
35:55
embrace a part of yourself that maybe you haven't before and
36:00
have some awareness around it. Much deeper connection with
36:03
yourself and removing some of those barriers to keep you
36:07
isolated. Also, unburden yourself from the
36:11
heaviness of the secrets. The secrets might be out there,
36:14
but the burden of sharing parts of you that you just don't feel
36:16
like you can share with other people.
36:18
We'll give you some direction on how to sign up.
36:20
Space is limited. I hate saying that.
36:23
Definitely want you to hurry to registration.
36:26
Reach out to us if you have questions.
36:27
We will give you more information about how to sign up
36:31
in the notes of this podcast and on our website.
36:34
Hopefully we can see you there. Are there times you feel
36:37
overwhelmed at the amount of resources and books available
36:40
for betrayal, trauma and addiction?
36:43
Do you ever wonder where to start?
36:45
Are you looking for a safe space to explore and process the
36:49
various aspects of recovery? I'm Rachel Strong Smith and I am
36:53
offering a group for women to come together to study and
36:58
discuss a specific recovery book written by a professional in
37:02
this field. This psycho educational group
37:05
will meet twice a month for a period of three months and be
37:08
filled with group insights about the book that we are reading.
37:12
As a social worker, I will facilitate the group by creating
37:16
a space to explore questions and conversations, perspectives and
37:21
applications of the reading. There are many rich sources of
37:24
information out there. Learning and growth are
37:27
strengthened in community. Let's discover how these many
37:31
resources can add to our life and the recovery process.
37:36
Head over to choose Recovery services.com For more
37:39
information and to sign up. I look forward to seeing you
37:42
there. Hey, thanks for joining us
37:46
today. If this is something that you
37:48
connected with, I'd love to meet with you more and talk about it.
37:51
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com or
37:55
check the show notes. And there what we can do is set
37:57
up a quick conversation needs. Thanks so much for listening to
38:00
Beyond the Facade where we unmask the authentic self.