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Anunnaki involvement in Majestic Twelve | Anunnaki Origins Podcast 037 · Anunnaki Origins Podcast

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I get people telling me I talk a lot about the Operation Majestic
0:04
12, the group set up by President Truman 1947 to deal
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with flying saucers after Roswell.
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And well, surely those guys list the 12 members would have told
0:15
their wives. I said you got to be kidding.
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I never told my wife anything classified.
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First, it's against the rules and second, I can't control what
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she said. She might drop a word.
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Loose lips sink ships. That's an old World War 2 motto.
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What is yes and and secrets are kept all the time and for long
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times. A third area which is peculiar
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to my background, I worked on more cancelled government
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sponsored Advanced Research and development programs dealing
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with advanced propulsion than anybody.
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Not by choice anyway. You can't get here from there.
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That's the big argument from the ancient academics and fossilized
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physicists. And not on a bicycle.
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You know, Sure, it took Magellan's ship, He didn't make
1:05
it, but it took his ship three years to go around the world.
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That's a good amount of time, isn't it?
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No, the space station does it in like 92 minutes.
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Progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable
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way. The people who tell you you
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can't get here from there, Well, yeah.
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I mean, part of it is arrogance coupled with ignorance.
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There's a famous David Suskin was a talk show host in the
1:34
United States for many years. Bright guy, I got a call from
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his office. They want me to come to New York
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to do a show. I was living in California and
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send all kinds of goodies and get them a good skeptic.
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I said there aren't any, but here's how to reach Phillip
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class and to get Betty Hill and, and I, I got them everything
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they wanted. And while we're taping segments
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between segments, he says to me, I'm sitting next to him and he
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says, you know, I read the New York Times.
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I've seen nothing in there that says these things are real.
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And so the Susskind syndrome is I keep track of what's important
2:11
in the world. That's what I do.
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If this were true, it would be important, I don't doubt that.
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But if it were important, I would know about it and I don't,
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so it must not be. And I'm not going to waste my
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time finding out more about it. There's a built in attitude.
2:27
Don't bother me with the facts. My mind's made-up.
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And that's one of the basic rules for debunkers.
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Second is what the public doesn't know.
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I'm not going to tell them. Third is if you can't attack the
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data, attack the people. It's easier.
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And 4th, do your research by proclamation.
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Investigation is too much trouble.
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Nobody will know the difference anyway.
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So when one is aware of these little tricks of the trade, so
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to speak, it's easy to handle them.
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I've done debates. Seth Shastak of the SETI
3:01
Institute, and you know, I say SETI stands for Silly effort to
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investigate SETI, not Search for Extraterrestrial intelligence
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that we debated on Coast to Coast radio and I won.
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I got 57% of the vote. He got 33% and 10% said I don't
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know. Well, that's a good question.
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I debated at the Oxford University debating system and
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you know you can't get higher on the tree.
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Well, that's what they tell me. Well, my team got 60% of the
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vote. Our flying sauce is real, yes,
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said I and my companion. And so, yeah, I, I know what
3:45
you're saying. But the kicker here, well, I
3:49
started to say Doctor Michael Shermer is head of the Skeptic
3:51
Society. I got 80% of the vote with him
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because he didn't know anything. He, he started off with a
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foolish statement that the only reason that there are sightings
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you can't explain I that there are there's a residue effect
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whatever field you're in, in the paranormal, 5% of the cases
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don't have enough data for your reach a reasonable explanation.
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And I jumped right in and spoke rapidly because I didn't want to
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be interrupted. I said what you've just said is
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totally untrue. You know, largest study ever
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done for the United States Air Force Project Blue Book Special
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Report 1421 1/2% of the cases couldn't be explained completely
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separate from the 9.3% listed as insufficient information in the
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University of Colorado study, 30% of the 117 cases studied in
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detail could not be explained, according to a special UFO
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subcommittee established by the world's largest group of space
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scientists, the American Institute of Aeronautics and
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Astronautics. In the deck halls, the UFO
5:02
evidence, 18% of 4500 cases couldn't be explained.
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So from there it was downhill. In other words, you started off
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with a claim that simply wasn't true.
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And it was like Carl Sagan's comments that I mentioned
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earlier. He didn't give a reference, he
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didn't give a source. And one of the things that's
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interesting about the SETI literature is they never talk
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about the sources of information about flying saucers.
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You think they're interested in extraterrestrial intelligence?
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Only if it's out there and sending signals so they can
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justify their existence. They're listening well, that
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that's why the the I refer to five large scale scientific
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studies and I find that fewer than 2% of people in my audience
5:47
have read any of them. For example, United States
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Congress held hearings on my birthday, believe it or not, in
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1968. Testimony from six scientists in
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person, six more of us in writing.
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Only I was one of the latter group of 6, and I'm proud to say
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I'm the only one who didn't have a pile tire and deeper a PhD
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degree. I think I'm the only one who's
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still alive, as a matter of fact, because I was the youngest
6:15
guy. But I refer people to that and,
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for example, Doctor James E McDonald, a professor of
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physics, University of Arizona, his testimony is 71 pages long.
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Everything's listed on my website,
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triplew.stantonfriedman.com. Incidentally, Jim had 41
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excellent cases. He talked to over 500 witnesses.
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He had multiple witness radar visual cases, sightings by
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astronomers, sightings by pilots.
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So I try to direct people not to the tabloid newspapers, but to
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the solid reports. Like I say, congressional
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testimony is is pretty strong stuff.
7:00
And yeah, you're right. It it, it's a mess out there.
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There's all kinds of garbage out there.
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That's why you got to qualify the sources and that's what I
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tried to do. Then remember, I wasn't there in
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1947. Now I'm not that old.
7:16
I was the first to talk to Jesse.
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As a matter of fact, I was totally innocent.
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People say why did he call you? He didn't.
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I was doing a television program actually supposed to be
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interviewed 3 times in Baton Rouge, LA, to promote my lecture
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that night at Louisiana State University.
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And this is 1978. And I talked to the I'm supposed
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to do 3 interviews and I talked to the first two.
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And the third reporter was nowhere to be found.
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This is before cell phones, believe it or not.
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And so the the manager of the station has given me coffee.
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He's looking at his watch. He knew the people who brought
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me to the station and he knew I had other things to do.
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And out of the blue he said, you know, the guy you ought to talk
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to is Jesse Marcel. And brilliant investigator that
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I am, I said, who's he? Oh, well, he handled pieces of
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the wreckage of one of those saucers you're interested in
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when he was in the military. Yeah, Yeah, that's the way to
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put it. And he.
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I said, what do you know about him?
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I mean, that's a kind of shocking statement from a guy.
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There's nobody else around. He's not joking.
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He handled wreckage when he was in the military.
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What do you know about him? He lives over in Homo.
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I couldn't tell me anything. HOUMAI didn't know where Homo
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was. I was there later to talk to
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Jesse. Well, he's a great guy, Roald
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ham radio buddies. You really ought to talk to him.
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Another reporter showed up. I was busy the rest of the day.
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We had a great crowd that night. I was at the airport early the
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next day. So I thought let's let's give it
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a shot. Called information in Houma, LA,
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wherever it was and got a number for Jesse Marcel and he talked
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to me. I gave him the the station
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manager's name, Bill Allen, and explained that I had had a
9:04
clearance for 14 years and I was very interested in this subject
9:09
and so he told me a story. Well, I found out later Jesse
9:11
was one of the few who couldn't deny his involvement.
9:14
His picture was in newspapers. His name was all over the place.
9:17
I didn't know that at the time. You'll understand.
9:20
I didn't know anything about the Roswell incident.
9:23
And so he gave me some names of people.
9:26
He didn't have a precise date, but I shared that information
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with the colleague. And then a few months later, I'm
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in Bemidji, MN, everybody's favorite town, giving a talk at
9:38
college. And somebody came up to me
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afterward. Ever hear of a crash saucer in
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New Mexico? Well, yes, tell me some more.
9:46
And they told me the story, the Barney Barnett story out West of
9:51
Roswell. And then my my colleague Bill
9:55
Moore found a story in your English flying saucer review
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about an A well known English actor, Huey Green, who commented
10:05
in an article that while driving across the United States from
10:09
Los Angeles to Philadelphia, he heard on the radio about a crash
10:13
saucer in New Mexico. And he could pin down the date.
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It wasn't a trip you made very often and the roads were lousy,
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to be frank about it at that time.
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And he could pin down the date first week in July I.
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Have no idea Huey Green was, if this is the same Huey Green, He
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was very, very famous. He was a sort of Ed Sullivan
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character in the UK. He's he was Canadian, originally
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Canadian. Yeah, originally Canadian.
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Well, his son was living in Canada at the time, I believe,
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and that's how we got the date. OK, so going to the newspapers
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at the University of Minnesota, my colleague found the story
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early July, and headline stories gave us a lot of names in the
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next year and a half. And Bill and I tracked down 62
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people in conjunction with the case the old fashioned way, You
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know, we didn't have the Internet to go by.
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He spent a lot of money on phone calls.
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And sure, every once in a while I got lucky.
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I checked with editor and publisher.
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Oh, there's a newspaper in Roswell.
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What did I know? The Roswell Bailey Record
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called, asked for the editor from 1947.
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Long gone. What do you need?
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Well, I've got this article about a guy named Walter Howe.
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Taught his name is spelled four different ways in the newspapers
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I had before. I can finish this century.
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As always, Wife works here. What?
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Wow, that's how it happens though, isn't it?
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One connection leads to another and you can't do that online.
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No, no. And so I talked to the wife,
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talked to Walter. He was a great source of
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information. He was the public relations
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officer for the base, but he also had been a Bombardier
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during the war and had was a good enough 1.
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He was chosen to drop the instrument package at the time
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they set off the the 4th atomic bomb.
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Well, fifth, I guess it was you pick your best people to do that
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because without the instrument package just as Operation
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Crossroads in the Pacific in 1946.
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So Walter was more than 20 missions over Japan, outstanding
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reputation in town. I checked around and he gave us
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names and he had a base yearbook which was helpful.
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And so we worked very hard. Also, we had the name of the
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rancher and I called information in New Mexico and I said, I'm
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trying to find somebody last name Brazil, not a common name.
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BRAZEL. He was attempted as a rancher.
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And she says what city? I don't know.
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Southeastern New Mexico. Well, let's see.
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Oh, I do have one in Carrizozo. I said, is that in southeastern
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New Mexico? I didn't know, he said yes.
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Well, it turns out that was the rancher's son, and he had just
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gotten his phone two weeks earlier.
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That may sound strange to people, but New Mexico has a lot
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of land and not many people. And sometimes in life, things
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are brought to you. There's a thing called
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serendipity, you know, there's happenstance, serendipity.
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Things just fall into place. Well, sometimes you work hard,
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too. I was trying to check on,
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there's a famous picture of General Roger Ramey, head of the
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8th Air Force and at that time Colonel Thomas Jefferson Dubose,
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taken in Ramey's office with some phony wreckage.
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And I thought, you know, many of the World War 2 United States
13:48
officers, military officer after World War Two were West Point
13:52
grads because everybody else got out.
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You know, United States didn't have a big standing army back in
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the 30s, to say the least. And so I called West Point.
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I always like to look for people with unusual names.
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It makes it a lot easier to find them, frankly.
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Easier than Smith or Jones? Yeah, oh boy.
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And so I called West Point. Yes.
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I mean, Thomas Jefferson Dubose. Can't be a lot of them around.
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And yes, he's still alive and he is in Florida.
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They wouldn't tell me his exact address, but I'd located him.
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I called him, he was in his mid 80s, explained that I'd seen the
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picture and was very interested and I'd like to send him some
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background information. My parents were retired in
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Florida. I knew I'd be going down there
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to see them. Could I stop by?
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And he said yes. So I met with him in person,
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great old guy, he was sharp and say the least.
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And he told me his story and everybody else was dead and
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nobody's going to come back to him.
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You know, he went, was a retired general when I saw him, had
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loads of flying time, set up the Air Force search and rescue
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teams. So I met with them in person and
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standing 3 feet away from me, he tells me that he took the call
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from General Ramey's boss, General McMullen, giving him
15:21
three orders. I want you to This is after the
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press story went out. I want you to get the press off
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our back. I don't care how you do it.
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I want you to send some of that wreckage to Washington, which is
15:35
where McMullen was today with one of your Colonel couriers.
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And I want you never to say anything about the.
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That's in order. Do I need to put it in writing,
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Colonel? They knew each other, both W
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pointers incidentally. So the three elements shut this
15:52
thing up, get us, get us some of this material so we can see what
15:56
it is, and then continue the start of the cover.
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Do both have complained? I said look, when a two star
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general tells a Colonel what to do, this is right after the war,
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he does it. How high do you want me to jump?
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He doesn't say. Well, I don't think that's a
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good idea, General. Come on, you know, there's a
16:15
real world out there. So I found Dubose, I talked to
16:22
him, I met with them twice, as a matter of fact.
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And some of that's filmed and it's, we had to edit it a bit,
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but he talked about some of the women at the base.
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I won't go into that, but there is a entire DVD again on my
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website triplew.stantonfriedman.com
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which has first hand testimony from 20 some Roswell witnesses.
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And presumably the first question you asked is the one
16:51
that any, any layperson who with any interest in this would want
16:54
to ask. And that is, is all of this
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true? In other words, the assumption
16:59
that what happened there was not what we were told it was, is
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that the case? Is that true?
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Well, yeah, I I started right in from that question.
17:08
And was that wreckage that you're in the picture with the
17:14
real wreckage from the crash? No, it was not.
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You know, So what I'm saying is I went after the real people.
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I got information directly from them and then verified.
17:28
It's like with Jesse Marcel Senior, his pictures in the
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yearbook, He really was there. But remember what he was.
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And the noisy negativist don't mention this.
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He just happened to be the intelligence officer for the
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most elite military group in the entire world.
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I don't say that casually. And it held that distinction
17:51
because it was the only ones who had atomic bombs.
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They dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, two more
17:58
in Operation Crossroads. You know, there wasn't anybody
18:02
else who could claim that distinction.
18:04
They had high level security. Hand chosen officers is an
18:10
outstanding group. Now, the debunkers won't tell
18:12
you that. One of the biggest debunkers
18:15
said when asked on the radio program that we were both on
18:19
what happened at Roswell. Well, there's this PR guy who
18:23
made-up the story to get attention and I said you don't
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even know his name. Well, no, I said.
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I've had dinner with him out in restaurants and in his home.
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Walter Haut. Everybody who's read anything
18:36
serious about Roswell knows his name, as a matter of fact,
18:39
because it's in all the books. Nine years later, the same
18:44
debunker published an article in which he said an unknown PR guy
18:49
put out an unauthorized press release.
18:53
OK, total baloney. I had talked to Walter Howd
18:58
about his relationship with Colonel Blanchard, who was the
19:01
base commander. And incidentally, I've had
19:03
people say, oh, Blanchard, just a loose cannon.
19:06
He was head of the only atomic bombing group in the world, you
19:08
understand. But a loose cannon?
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Well. Let's get this clear.
19:11
He was the man who said that it was OK in the very early stages
19:15
to put the story that something weird had been found there.
19:18
He authorized it. He instructed Walter Howdt to
19:24
put out the press release and it wasn't he who retracted it, it
19:28
was his boss. So the interesting part of all
19:31
of this is the dynamic of how that worked in in those raw days
19:36
after the after the incident. He is somebody who says the
19:39
public have to know about this. So it goes out and goes out
19:41
through the media and then suddenly the brakes are slammed
19:44
on and everything is thrown into reverse gear.
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That's right. And and Blanchard, Did Blanchard
19:50
get punished for putting that out?
19:51
He got four more promotions. He became a four-star general,
19:57
which is a very high rank in the United States, and he was
20:02
actually vice chief of staff for the Air Force when he died of a
20:05
massive heart attack at the Pentagon.
20:08
He did his duty, didn't he? When he was told to keep his
20:10
mouth shut, he kept his mouth shut.
20:11
So he he did his duty. He wasn't a maverick.
20:15
No, and it's certainly not a loose cannon.
20:17
And along the way to that fourth star, he was in charge of
20:21
operations for the Strategic Air Command, which meant he had
20:24
thousands of nuclear warheads under his control.
20:28
You don't put loose cannon. All those high level promotions,
20:32
incidentally, have to be approved by Congress.
20:36
Once you get past the first general rank, it doesn't just
20:40
happen. In other words, you don't throw
20:42
darts at a dart board. Who am I going to make the head
20:44
of this side of the other thing? So what when I'm Of course the
20:48
debunkers never tell you that. Oh, just a loose cannon,
20:52
Colonel. Yeah, he went out to be a
20:54
four-star general. But after, after all of it
20:58
happened and after the brakes were put on and another story
21:00
was put out there, let's take the case of Blanchard.
21:04
What do? What do you believe?
21:06
What do you know that he believed after that?
21:08
What did he know in his heart after that, after he left the
21:10
service in subsequent years, the kind of thing that he would have
21:13
told his closest? Blanchard didn't leave the
21:15
service. He died in office.
21:16
Sorry. Yeah.
21:17
Well, after, you know, at the very end of his service period,
21:19
you said he died of a heart attack in office.
21:21
So, you know, at the very end of that, though, there must have
21:24
been a man who, unless he had incredible fortitude, intestinal
21:27
fortitude, who must have been somewhat troubled by those
21:30
events in any way, do you think? Well, I talked to his daughter.
21:36
I talked to his two sons. I talked to his first and second
21:39
wives. His daughter told me that he at
21:44
one point thought it might be Russian stuff because he was on
21:48
a jaunt with other military guys to Russia and the symbols made
21:53
him think Russian. They were strange symbols on
21:55
some of the wreckage. But his daughter told me that
22:04
she knew somebody at Los Alamos, and he had told her that they
22:09
were having a little problem with where do they charge the
22:13
work that went into analyzing the wreckage.
22:19
You know, how do we cover that up?
22:20
Kind of Los Alamos was a place where everything got covered up.
22:23
But. No.
22:25
And, and the, the, the whole mechanic of how that is
22:27
possible, how it's possible to keep the lid on something of
22:30
that scale is fascinating by itself, isn't it?
22:34
Well, yeah. And what people don't realize is
22:36
that often, well, I, I didn't tell anybody in England, you
22:40
know, that disinformation was very important during World War
22:43
2 to misdirect Hitler's attention to that the landing
22:48
would take place at Callas instead of at Normandy and all
22:51
the rest of that. You know, So misinformation is
22:57
part of the picture, disinformation.
23:00
But another part of the story of keeping things classified is
23:04
people on a high level recognize the need for it.
23:09
Top level Americans aren't stupid.
23:11
They, they don't think that, well, there can't be any spies
23:13
here. You know, everybody knows it's
23:17
an open society. There's spies all over the
23:19
place. And it's something we have to
23:23
take into account. Sometimes you can use it, but
23:27
keeping secrets. Look.
23:29
The lock aid program to develop the stealth aircraft cost $10
23:33
billion. It was done in secret over a 10
23:37
year period. Not a word in public.
23:40
The first American spy satellite was the Corona spy satellite.
23:45
They had 12 failures. Nobody heard about them.
23:48
The 13th 1 was a success in 1960, and it got more
23:52
information about Soviet military installations than all
23:56
of the U2 flights that had taken place before that.
24:01
The first public announcement about that was 30 years later.
24:07
So anybody who says it is impossible in a free society,
24:10
which we assume we have, many people assume perhaps it isn't
24:13
quite as free as all that. Anybody who says it isn't
24:16
possible to keep something like like that secret is completely
24:20
wrong because we have proof from other fields like the stealth
24:23
fighter. And as you said, these are the
24:25
projects. Well, as a matter of fact, it's
24:27
kind of interesting. A single number.
24:30
The Russian Post had an article within the past year about the
24:35
black budget for military intelligence in the United
24:39
States. That means a budget that doesn't
24:41
go through Congress as such. They said that for this past
24:45
year it was $52.6 billion. The three agencies primarily
24:52
involved were the CIA, the NSA and the NRO, National
24:58
Reconnaissance Office. And the NRO builds those big
25:03
expensive satellites can cost a billion dollars each.
25:06
You know, they can read the license plate and the cars in
25:09
the Kremlin parking lot, that kind of thing.
25:12
And that's a lot of secrecy. So what about the theory then,
25:17
Stan? That a lot of the stuff we see
25:18
in the sky and people report as UFOs is actually stuff that has
25:22
been developed by them using that budget.
25:25
We just simply don't know about it yet.
25:27
Well, that budget is the military intelligence budget.
25:31
The CIA planted a story and repeated it.
25:35
That most of the sightings, once they started flying the U2, the
25:41
SR-71, these other secret airplanes, most of them were
25:45
really reports of those and the government was glad.
25:47
Let's call them UFOs. That's a lie.
25:51
The number of sightings did not go up when those things started
25:54
flying. And whoever heard of AU 2 that
25:58
could land in the middle of nowhere and take off from there,
26:01
that could make right angle turns, that could fly silently,
26:04
that didn't have wings or a tail?
26:06
It it, it's a cover story. Let me give you an example of a
26:10
lie that is a big lie, but which was gotten away with for
26:16
decades. In 1955, Donald Quarles was the
26:21
secretary of the United States Air Force.
26:23
No higher authority in the Air Force and a big study had been
26:27
done. Biggest study ever done.
26:31
The actual name was Blue Book Special Report 14.
26:35
It was not mentioned in the press release that was put out
26:38
in October 1955. A quote quarrels is saying on
26:42
the basis of this study, we believe no objects such as those
26:46
properly described as flying saucers have overflown the
26:50
United States. Even the unknown 3% could have
26:56
been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions if more
27:00
complete observational data had been available.
27:04
That sounds pretty cut and dried.
27:06
It appeared in newspapers all over the world.
27:09
There's a little problem with it.
27:11
It's a total lie. They didn't give the title of
27:14
the study, Blue Book Special Report 14.
27:17
Surely some newsmen would have said, what do you mean 14?
27:19
When I went through 13, we've never heard of them.
27:21
They were all classified at the time.
27:24
Secondly, they didn't say who did the work, but tell Memorial
27:27
Institute in Columbus, OH a very well reflected research and
27:31
development firm. I had some dealings with them.
27:34
I know about them. So why would they produce a
27:36
report saying that? Do you think that they were
27:39
taught to come to that, to this? Is in the press release now.
27:43
They didn't show the report. So somebody report which?
27:48
I managed to get you find that the percentage of unknowns
27:51
wasn't 3%, it was 21 1/2 percent.
27:56
Which ties in with other data that you've seen.
27:58
So the problem is with whoever wrote the synopsis.
28:01
Well, what I'm saying is the Secretary of the Air Force lied
28:05
full force. Incidentally, the better the
28:09
quality of the sighting, the more likely to be unexplainable.
28:14
And the sightings for which they didn't have enough data. 9.3%
28:19
there was a lie. A lie.
28:21
A lie. And no newsmen, as far as I
28:25
could tell, question anything. So what?
28:28
To get back to what you asked, one way you keep secrets is
28:32
about lying skillfully. You know, I, I, I, I hate to say
28:39
that, but skillfully, yeah. Well, there was a politician
28:41
over here back in the 80s who came up with a great phrase to
28:44
be economical with the truth. Which?
28:48
Kind of fits a lot of circumstances, doesn't it?
28:51
Yes, it does. And the The thing is that
28:54
they're all, there was an announcement made the the NRO
28:58
that I mentioned. They had had a program with the
29:01
Boeing to try to improve the architecture, as they call it,
29:06
of those spy satellites. They spent $13 billion and they
29:11
cancelled the program because they didn't get what they
29:13
wanted. That's not small potatoes.
29:16
That's a lot of work, a lot of money, a lot of time.
29:20
Well, you guys have a perfect example of that in England, the
29:24
Enigma business, Bletchley Park had 12,000 people whose job it
29:30
was to intercept, decode, translate and very carefully
29:36
release German military communications on a strict need
29:39
to know basis. Now, I think when the war was
29:43
over, that was very important to the victory.
29:46
I would say it's nice to know when the Germans are going to be
29:48
from where they're flying their airplanes and all that sort of
29:50
thing. There was not a word in public
29:53
for 25 years after the war 12,000 but of course, but.
29:58
Of course there wasn't the technology then.
30:00
Well, let's let's park that for one second.
30:03
The biggest imperative there was the the fact that we had to keep
30:07
things secret because we were in the business of defeating
30:09
Hitler. And don't forget it was Touch
30:11
and Go 20. Five years after the war, there
30:13
wasn't a word in public about that great, incredible benefit
30:17
from breaking the codes. Well, there were people sworn to
30:20
secrecy working at Bletchley Park and they, they did, they,
30:23
they just like, just like people at Roswell, they did their duty.
30:27
That's right. What I'm trying to say is there
30:29
are people who do their duty who do keep their mouths shut.
30:33
Anybody who says you can't keep secrets doesn't understand the
30:36
situation. What about Jesse Marcel senior
30:40
of all the people in all this stuff that I would have liked to
30:43
have met and talked to and looked into the eyes of more
30:46
importantly, because that's how you can tell the eyes of the the
30:48
window, the mirror of the soul. How did he come across to you?
30:54
Very well, very well. He was a friendly guy.
30:57
When we made my movie UFOs Are Real, we went to Houma, LA, We
31:02
interviewed him, spent some time with him.
31:06
Of course, later I talked to his son and the rest of that.
31:08
I was very favorably impressed. He was very straight.
31:12
Look, you don't get to be the intelligence officer for the
31:15
only atomic bombing group in the world by being an idiot.
31:20
You know, people forget that you're being trusted with atomic
31:25
bombs. I've talked to people that he
31:28
briefed as intelligent. Or they would make simulated
31:31
missions. They'd fly a bunch of planes to
31:34
over New York, make sure they got there on time and all the
31:36
rest of that. And Jesse was a fine officer.
31:39
He was a major at the time. And what about his sense of
31:42
duty? I think that's the thing I would
31:44
have wanted to ask him about because his sense of duty, his
31:46
sense of duty, his sense of commitment to the service,
31:50
commitment to the United States Question.
31:51
About. That right, And that is why he
31:53
effectively allowed himself to become a fall guy for the whole
31:56
thing. Well, yes, he, he didn't have a
31:59
choice. You follow orders.
32:02
And, you know, and I once asked Jesse Marcel Junior, I said, why
32:10
didn't you guys keep any pieces of the wreckage that was on the
32:14
kitchen floor? He said, look, we're an Air
32:17
Force family. You just didn't do that.
32:24
You know it's the wrong thing to do.
32:25
It's very straightforward. And anybody who says, come on,
32:28
that everybody would have kept a peaceful hindsight is 2020.
32:32
You know you do at the time when you're under pressure, what you
32:34
do at the time. Well, that's right.
32:36
And remember again, this is right after the war.
32:41
You know, many Americans in particular, I don't know about
32:44
English, but the Englishman, but many Americans link war with,
32:48
say, the Vietnam War. Lots of protests, lots of
32:51
disquiet and negative attitudes and stuff.
32:55
World War 2 wasn't like that. We all got to pull together to
33:00
defeat Hitler and and Tojo and many Americans don't realize how
33:07
close we came to losing that war.
33:09
Well, us too, you know, we were very, very close if we hadn't
33:12
had the support of the US, and I know it's still a sole point
33:15
with some Brits, but you know, we needed the support of the US.
33:18
Otherwise there was a chance that we would, we would have
33:21
gone the way of, of Nazism. And you look at our Channel
33:23
Islands here, which are just our France, they were British.
33:27
We had to let them go during the war because of their proximity
33:30
to France. We couldn't defend them.
33:31
So the poor people there were under siege for the, the period
33:34
of the war that could so easily have happened to us.
33:39
So it was a very, very, very close thing.
33:42
Jesse Marcel senior, though, how did he, did he talk to you about
33:46
that? I presume he did.
33:47
How did he live with it? All assuming as many people do
33:50
assume, that he was a fall guy for it and was willing to do his
33:54
duty, of course, because that's what he was schooled in doing.
33:56
And as you say, the guy wasn't stupid.
33:58
He was a very intelligent guy, put in that position for a
34:02
variety of reasons, his abilities, his toughness, his
34:05
mental agility, all the rest of it.
34:07
But subsequently, how did he live with it?
34:12
I don't think he was happy about the situation.
34:16
That is, he knew they were covering up something of great
34:20
importance. But I think if I hadn't
34:23
contacted him, thanks. And incidentally, that station
34:27
manager, Bill Allen, I asked him years later, what did Jesse tell
34:32
you? He said he didn't tell me
34:35
anything. We were ham radio operators.
34:36
I asked him, I had seen the original article in the New
34:40
Orleans newspaper and I had asked him about it.
34:45
And he said I can't talk about that.
34:48
So he didn't tell him anything. It's just that he knew back at
34:52
that time. I, I don't know how it works in
34:54
England, but when he had stories about military people, they
34:57
often said where they were based, where, where they were
35:00
from, hometowns and all that sort of thing.
35:04
So the article had mentioned that he was from Houma and the
35:07
article in the Louisiana paper. And so there was the ID.
35:13
But Jesse had wasn't spilling his guts anywhere, his beans
35:18
anywhere. He got us started and then I
35:21
could check in newspapers and find other articles and like I
35:24
said, we found 62 people in a year and a half.
35:28
Which is an amazing piece of research.
35:29
But look, as I said when we started talking about him in
35:33
this segment, you can look into somebody's eyes and you can tell
35:37
where they're coming from, can't you?
35:39
Yes. Well, I was certainly never had
35:41
a qualm. That's not true.
35:44
Everybody I talked to, I would say, but I never had a qualm
35:50
about Jesse. I was quite satisfied when with
35:54
him in person and there was some phone conversations as well.
35:59
I and a couple of people who interviewed him afterward.
36:05
No, no qualms at all. This was a straight shooter.
36:09
I'm, I'm not saying he enjoyed the situation.
36:11
He didn't, he didn't glory in it.
36:14
He wasn't looking for glorification.
36:17
I'm a hero. Not at all.
36:21
He remember, As I said, here's one of the few people that
36:24
couldn't deny he was involved. This picture was in the papers.
36:27
His name was there. But no matter how tough you are
36:30
and how skilled you are, if somebody tells you that
36:33
something that you believe is the greatest story that mankind
36:36
has ever known breaks all around you, and then you're told to
36:40
tell the world it's weather balloons and it's nothing really
36:42
much to worry about. That's got to have some effect
36:45
on you at some level. Well, remember, he didn't do any
36:48
of the talking. After that, the attention was
36:51
shifted to General Ramey's office, which was over in Texas,
36:56
300 miles away. They didn't come back to Jesse.
36:59
He didn't talk to the press at the time.
37:01
His picture was taken in the office of General Ramey, But and
37:07
he was told not to say anything and he didn't.
37:10
And when he came back, he told his son who had handled some of
37:14
the wreckage that we don't talk about this, this now.
37:17
It's classified. It wasn't classified before.
37:19
Who knew what they were going to get into when they got out to
37:22
the crash site. So he was out of the limelight
37:27
entirely until after I made noises and books came out and so
37:32
forth. But that was in the early 80s by
37:34
that time. He died in 86, so you know, he,
37:39
he wasn't parading around, he wasn't getting drunk, anything
37:45
like that. He was a soldier doing his duty.
37:47
62 people you talked with, that's a lot of research, a lot
37:51
of shoe leather, as we used to say.
37:53
What is the most compelling thing that somebody said to you
37:56
in those interviews with 62 people?
37:59
Oh boy, there were an awful lot of.
38:02
Well, one of the ones after that was a guy who showed up.
38:07
We'd been trying to, we had a base yearbook, so we were
38:09
looking for people for many years, was a guy who wound up
38:14
coming to Roswell and his job was to go around and pick up
38:19
pieces of the wreckage. I was so impressed as he
38:22
described how out in the middle of nowhere, this is desert.
38:26
Now, you know, this isn't a Pretty Little forest or
38:28
anything. Hot, miserable desert.
38:32
Who is picking up pieces of the wreckage?
38:35
And he put them in a big, he called it a gunny sack on a big
38:43
dark brown cloth bag. And he said before it got to the
38:48
bottom, it would open up. And I just thought that was such
38:52
a neat way of putting it. You know, there were other
38:57
people who were on the plane who carried that original plane load
39:03
of wreckage to Texas and who was clear that they were on a
39:08
mission and they were told to shut their mouths and it was
39:10
very important. And all the rest of that.
39:13
You couldn't deny their sincerity, their care with which
39:18
they spoke. There are a whole bunch of those
39:22
people. I went.
39:24
I'd like Glenn Dennis, who was the undertaker in town.
39:28
Somebody mentioned that he might know something.
39:30
Yeah, this is the story that I was thought was apocryphal.
39:32
Of what? What?
39:33
Wasn't there an order of some small coffins?
39:36
Well, he's the guy who told the story, and I was the first to
39:39
hear it. Yeah, I I went at him in a
39:43
different way. I got his name from Walter.
39:45
How does somebody who might know something in town called him and
39:51
he wouldn't really tell me anything but I would you like me
39:56
to send you some background materials so you can see who I
39:58
am Yes. So I did I sent him some of my
40:01
papers and my background as a scientist and stuff.
40:03
He had a son who was a son-in-law who is a scientist
40:06
and so he was impressed with that.
40:08
When I went to Roswell to do or I was going went to Roswell to
40:14
do a television show. NBC had a show and I called
40:21
Glenn Dennis and. He was out on Billy the Kid Day
40:29
one day of the year where there's life where Billy the Kid
40:32
Day. Billy the Kid Day, OK?
40:34
Yeah, and I got a drive out from somebody who knew him and he's
40:38
telling me his story with a mariachi band in the background.
40:42
He's running the food service at the hotel there where the big
40:45
celebration was going on. And it, and it was funny.
40:49
I mean, when you listen to the tape, it was funny.
40:52
The gal who transcribed it and he's the one who told me about
40:56
the his taking the call from the, the hospital.
41:04
You know, there were, it was a good sized hospital.
41:07
There were a couple thousand people based at the place and a
41:09
lot of soldiers and women who gave birth and accidents and
41:13
other things. A busy place.
41:16
And he worked for the ambulance service and they had the
41:19
contract to do the ambulance stuff and work for the
41:23
undertaker, the local undertaker.
41:27
And, but they also did the ambulance service.
41:29
That's not uncommon in the West and, you know, hurts your big
41:33
vehicles. And, and he was the one who got
41:37
the call asking about the small bodies, small caskets and also
41:44
advice on how do you treat bodies that have been out in the
41:46
desert for a while. And his advice was dry ice.
41:50
It's very hot in Roswell today. It's probably 105°F.
41:55
It was the other day anyway. And so I got that conversation
42:02
straight from him. And then I met with him again
42:05
and got a little more information about the the
42:08
details. And one of the things you find,
42:10
incidentally, you probably know this is a news man, maybe better
42:14
than I do, that if you're talking about something that
42:16
happened a lot of years before, I find the first response is,
42:20
oh, Gee, this is so long ago. I don't remember anything about
42:23
that. Well, I keep talking, mention
42:26
names of the officers and so forth.
42:28
And after 5 minutes or so, the guy will say, oh, you know, did
42:33
you talk to Joe Smith? He was there at the time.
42:36
I remember him. And you know, after 10 minutes,
42:39
they the details come back. Well, it's all about handing
42:42
people. It's almost handing people back
42:44
little snapshots of stuff they've already told you because
42:48
they're aids to memory. And then as as you rightly say,
42:50
stuff comes tumbling out. Now, this undertaker, small
42:54
coffins, advice on how to preserve bodies that have been
42:58
out in the desert in the sun, because they decompose.
43:00
We dry ice is the way to do it. But was there anything more than
43:04
that circumstantial evidence that suggested that what was
43:07
being transported here was not from this planet?
43:10
I wouldn't say so. Well, what about those stories
43:14
of, of the, I've heard one story and maybe it's apocryphal.
43:17
You've, I'm sure you've heard this one of bodies being
43:21
transported by a couple of military guys, perhaps on the
43:23
first stage of their journey, put under some kind of tarpaulin
43:27
cover them being told not to look.
43:29
And of course one has a look and what does he see underneath?
43:32
Well, you know, you can guess. That was one of the airplane
43:35
crew member stories. And also Glenn also had the
43:40
story of the nurse that he talked to.
43:44
There was a nurse that he was seeing at the time at the base
43:49
and she told them that he he well, it goes back a little more
43:57
than that. He went to the base with an
43:59
airman who was injured, parked the ambulance outside, goes
44:04
inside, sees there's a big fuss going on and she he sees this
44:11
nurse that he knows. And she said you better get out
44:13
of here. You're, you're going to be in
44:14
trouble. He didn't know what that was all
44:16
about. He talked to her later.
44:19
He got threatened by the officers.
44:21
You know, get your tail out of here and don't you ever say
44:24
anything about what you've seen here.
44:26
He hadn't seen anything but he met with her for lunch at the
44:31
officers club and she told them that she was working there and
44:36
their stuff. 2 doctors came in and brought her with them into a
44:41
room where they were looking at a body and she said it smelled
44:46
to high heaven. Ugly, not from here.
44:51
And so he had this story from her.
44:54
When she said not from here, do we infer that that means not
44:58
from this planet or not from these these low this particular
45:01
location in the US? Definitely different, I mean
45:04
nurses are used to human anatomy after all, and it was different.
45:10
She even drew a picture for him of what the hand looked like.
45:14
So when you get a couple of people, an undertaker, a nurse,
45:18
couple of people connected with the vase saying things, well
45:21
that's one thing. When you get 62 people talking
45:23
with you and all of them put a little extra piece into the
45:26
jigsaw, you must have started to believe, yes, I'm really getting
45:30
somewhere here. Yes, yeah.
45:32
And I was a major contributor to the first book that came out,
45:36
The Roswell Incident by Mill, Bill Moore and Charles Berlitz,
45:40
language man Berlitz. And that got the ball rolling.
45:45
And then other people came forward.
45:47
This story's been going on ever since then.
45:49
I had no idea that that little sentence at the television
45:54
station was going to start me on a lifetime of Roswellianness.
45:58
And I was supposed to be in Roswell two weeks ago, had a
46:01
heart attack, just got in a way. How, you know, we didn't talk
46:04
about this, but you had a heart attack.
46:06
And, you know, if you have a heart attack at 50, it's one
46:10
thing. If you have a heart attack at 79
46:11
and now you're 80, it's quite another thing.
46:13
How are you, Stan? I'm doing fine.
46:15
I was never sick. I was bored in the hospital.
46:19
They did they put in two stents which work wonders.
46:24
I read 4 books because there was nothing else to do down there.
46:29
Had an echocardiogram and, you know, come back in four years
46:33
for the, that valve might need some help.
46:36
And, you know, I, I lucked out. I was in good health.
46:41
I, I had joined the gym about six months earlier and maybe
46:46
that's why I had the heart attack.
46:47
I don't know. Well, I mean, look, when these
46:50
things, when lightning strikes, when these things happen, they,
46:53
they just kind of happen. But the one thing the voice, the
46:56
the cube, we talked about radio at the beginning of this
46:58
conversation and sound, your voice communicates to me apart
47:03
from good health right now, total complete enthusiasm.
47:07
You're 80 years of age now. It sounds to me as if you're
47:10
going to keep doing this for as long as you can and as long as
47:14
you want to. And that's as far into the
47:16
future as we need to see. And I should add, both my
47:19
parents live to be 90s so that's my goal.
47:22
I'll quit at 90. I'll be looking let's not be
47:25
bacabra about this because you sound fine.
47:28
But you know, all of our, all of our lives are finite.
47:31
Are you making plans, Stan, to, to hand over the baton of the
47:34
work that you've done to somebody else?
47:37
Well, I I'm trying to get some local people to set up a museum
47:41
here and I'll turn over all my paperwork and journals and
47:45
magazines. I got an office full of stuff.
47:48
But I, I've got to say you sound.
47:51
And for anybody who wants to to inquire into it all, you know,
47:54
like me perhaps in the future or whoever comes after me doing
47:56
this stuff probably a lot better than I'm doing it, but you
47:59
sound. Pick up the the baton.
48:03
And run with it. I mean, you sound and you've all
48:05
this is the thing that communicates itself and always
48:08
did. And when I met you in person as
48:10
well, there's an energy about you that I think is like nuclear
48:15
power for you. You've got a little reactor
48:17
going on there. I think it within you.
48:19
Well, I hope so. I my enthusiasm.
48:22
If I didn't care about what I was doing, I wouldn't be doing
48:25
it. You know, you get to a certain
48:28
age and you can choose and people say when are you going to
48:30
retire? Then why should I retire my own
48:32
boss? I have no problems with my enjoy
48:36
what I'm doing as long as I'm healthy.
48:38
Let's talk again and listen, OK, from all of the listeners to
48:41
this show who I know will want to say this to you, Happy 80th
48:45
birthday and truly many happy returns.
48:49
Thank you so much, I will enjoy it.
48:52
And what will you be doing on the?
48:53
I know we're not speaking on specifically the day itself.
48:56
How will you spend the day? Well, my two daughters are
49:00
coming, one from the West Coast, one from the East Coast, and
49:04
we'll have the family. We'll be together and we'll have
49:06
dinner out and we're going to go look at an old historic train
49:11
station in Macadam, New Brunswick.
49:13
I've never been there and I wanted to see the place back
49:17
from the day when trains were kings.
49:20
Sounds like something from Back to the Future, doesn't it?
49:24
Standard Friedman pleasure to talk with you again.
49:26
And Stan, please come back on The Unexplained soon.
49:28
Take care.