Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Building a Baseball Organization - Part 1 with Dan O'Dowd

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Building a Baseball Organization - Part 1 with Dan O'Dowd · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings alongside Chet West. I'm
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: your host, Thad Levine. Today, we are joined by my
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: first boss, one of the singular biggest influences on my
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: life and my career, one of the most progressive minds
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: baseball has seen in this last era, and a very
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: good friend, Dan O'Dowd. Dan launched his career with the
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Orioles in 1983. When his mentor Hank Peters headed to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Cleveland in 87, our guest went with him, becoming an
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: essential architect of the Indians' 1990s powerhouse. Teaming up with
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: John Hart, the Indians captured five straight AL Central titles,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: two American League championships, setting a legendary streak of 455
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: consecutive sellouts. Becoming the third Rollins College graduate to become
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: a Major League General Manager, Dan took on the toughest
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: operational puzzle in sports, building a winner a mile high
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: as the GM of the Colorado Rockies from 1999 to 2014.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Dan orchestrated the iconic 2007 Rocktober World Series run that
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: saw the team win 21 of its last 22 games
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and another playoff berth in 2009. Along the way, he
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: remarkably launched the careers of 15 future Major League General Managers. Today,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: you know him as the leading front office analyst on
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball's network, delivering informative breakdowns of the draft,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: insights into trades and championship roster construction. Dan has partnered
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: with his son, Chris, as founders of WinReality, And off
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the field, he's husband to Jackie, dad to Lexi, Chris,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: and Jack, who, oh, by the way, is currently crushing
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: it in the Rockies system, posting a 966 OPS and
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: 22 home runs across three minor league levels. Dan, welcome
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to Rosters to Rings.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Wow, Thad.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: I didn't know there was 15 of you. Gosh almighty.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: That was pretty neat.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Dan, we'll do a roll call later. It's really impressive.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I did not know that, honestly. I appreciate that.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you this because no one else
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: is listening right now. I'll be on rosters to rings.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's fact, but I'm going to say,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I think that has to be a record in major
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: league baseball to have a family tree that is as
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: robust as that to have launched the careers of 15
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: general managers. And that's just in your stops in Cleveland
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and in Colorado. I wasn't able to trace back to Baltimore.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, in Baltimore, I was definitely a peon. So
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: I don't think I lost anybody, lost anybody's career. In Baltimore,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: it's questionable I was launching my own career in Baltimore,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: quite honestly.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: This is something that kind of mimics the George Seifert
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: coaching tree in the NFL or something. Those are big numbers, 15.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've been blessed to be around a lot
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: of good people.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Well, you've been blessed to put together great teams, and
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about that later. Dan, one
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of our traditions on Roster Syringes, we ask everyone who
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: comes on, the one tie that binds us all together
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: is our love for sports. How did you fall in
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: love with sports as a young man or as a kid?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Well, great question.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Uh, so if my dad was a, it was a
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: dairy farmer. We had a dairy business growing up called
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: O'Dowd's Dairy in Pinebrook, New Jersey, a small little suburban
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: town outside of about 30, 40 miles outside of George
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Washington Bridge, New York City. Um, not that we ever
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: visited that, that to my parents, that's, that'd be like
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: going to Mars growing up. And so, um, You know, Thad,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: it's crazy. You know, I just, I think the Lord
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: puts some things on your heart at a very young
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: age if you're really fortunate. The first game I ever played,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: I hit two home runs. And believe me, they were
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: home runs where there was no fences. So you hit
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: the ball and just ran completely until it was a
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: home run. But it seemed like that locked into me
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: just this incredible passion for the game of baseball.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: And it just never went away.
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  Speaker 3: I think I probably was, you know, 10 years old
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: at the time. And, but I bring up Odell's dairy
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  Speaker 3: cause my father was not a baseball player. I mean,
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: he never played catch with me cause it's just, he
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: couldn't do that. And my brother was an academic kid,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: you know, so he was like the smartest one in
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  Speaker 3: the family. It's just my brother and I. And so
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: something lit a fire on me and it just never
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: went away. And I think, I think my family thought
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: I was nuts all the time because I told them
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: I was going to pursue this as a career. And
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: they kept saying, well, you're never going to make any
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: money doing that. They were accurate for a long period
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: of time, by the way, with that assessment. Um, But
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  Speaker 3: it's funny how you fall into things when you're young
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  Speaker 3: and then they just stay with you the rest of
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: your life.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, Dan. We're going to spend the majority of
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: our time with you talking about the 2026 Major League
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Baseball season and the pending collective bargaining and what the
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: future holds for baseball. But I do want to hit
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: on a few pivotal moments of your career. Michael Wilbon
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: has famously said that You cannot truly appreciate a championship
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: until you've had your heart broken. Well, you and I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: both have had our heart broken on the grandest stage.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: We both got to the deciding game of a World Series,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: me in 2011, you in 1997. You guys, the Cleveland Indians,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: are playing against the Miami Marlins, I guess then the
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Florida Marlins, a series highlighted by, I believe, snow in
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Cleveland and sunshine in Florida. But you guys go back
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: to Florida.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: It's tied 3-3.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You're on the road. You have a lead 2-1 in
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: the ninth. Unfortunately, you do not prevail. They tie that
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: game in the ninth and then ultimately win in the
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: 11th inning. Can you take us behind the scenes? Who
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: were you sitting with at that time? How did the
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: group process what actually unfolded and how did that motivate
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: you guys in the offseason heading into 1998?
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what's unique about that team, it was like the
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: third iteration because, you know, like I think we were
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: at the forefront of the game of signing young players
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: to multi-year contracts. It was the only way to survive
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: in Cleveland. That's a really interesting story how that all
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: came about. So we were really proud of that club
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: because I don't think that was the most talented club
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: that we had in 1997 because we didn't have Kenny Lofton.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: It was Marquise Christen playing center field. Brian Giles was down.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: You know, all those young kids started now to matriculate
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: up into our big league club. I blame John Hart
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: for losing that series though, to this day, because like
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: there's a cardinal rule in the game that you don't
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: leave your seat to go change because you don't want
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: to get your suit.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Oh God.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm sitting with my wife in a box
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: with John's wife, Sandy and John. And, you know, we're
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: right next to the dugout and he gets up and
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: leaves and the in the top of the ninth inning,
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: and I go, Sandy, where is he going? He goes, well,
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: he doesn't want to ruin his suit, so he's going
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: to watch the end of the game in the clubhouse
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: and change. I look at Jackie, and I said, honestly,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: I could kill him right now, Jackie. Like, I literally
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: could kill him right now. So I'm blaming John Hart
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: for that. I'm joking when I say that, but there
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: is a cardinal rule about packing up the bats before
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: the game is over with, and he definitely packed up
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: the bats.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: That was a heartbreaking moment.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Loss.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: It really was. We had our chances.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: We actually hit some balls really well in that game
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: that just didn't find, you know, the grass. And I
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: think if we went to that league, Jose Mesa was great,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: but we lived on the edge.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: With him for the last half of the season.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: And so I can tell you, I was not comfortable
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: going into the ninth inning at all in that situation.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: And then once the ninth inning got away from us,
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  Speaker 3: it's really hard to win on the road in it.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: in extra innings, whether it's a regular season game or
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: a post-season game. So, you know, I was getting to
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: that point now, I wasn't very optimistic when we got
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: into extra innings. So afterwards that was devastating. I kind
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: of got upset at some people when I got back
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: on the bus, they were laughing. I'm not going to,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to name who they are, but they're
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: currently a president of a team in the American league.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: And I just said, you know, I just, cause they
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: were young. And I said, you realize how hard it
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: is to get to this point? Like it's, There's so
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: much good fortune to get to this point in time,
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  Speaker 3: and you may never get back here at any point
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: in time in your career. And that gentleman did and
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: got beat again in the seventh game last year in
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: the postseason. So I probably didn't handle that quite as
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: well as I should have, but I was very, very
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: emotional and distraught because so much energy. We took over
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: a Cleveland organization that was awful.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: It was terrible.
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  Speaker 3: And I was a really young farm director, and I
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: had just gotten my butt kicked the first three years
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  Speaker 3: in that job.
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  Speaker 2: And just to see the turnaround and get to.
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  Speaker 3: Where it was and just knowing how hard, knowing that
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: the Yankees in 98, we knew the Yankees were going
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: to be just incredible in 98. And they were just
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  Speaker 3: on that roll at that point in time to get
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: through them again. Because we got through them that year.
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  Speaker 3: To get through them again next year was going to
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  Speaker 3: be really difficult to do. So that was a really
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  Speaker 3: heartbreaking loss, as you know that. I mean, it's just,
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: it's a terrible feeling.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you're carrying the hopes of a fan base
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: on your shoulders, Dan. And in that moment, you feel
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: as if you've kind of let down that entire fan base.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: And you guys not only built a championship organization, you
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: had revitalized a city. I mean, the fact that, I mean,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: one of your biggest achievements in your career, which it's
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: not about a player, but it was about a 455
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: consecutive sellouts in Cleveland. If anyone's seen a game in
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Cleveland in the last decade, like the notion that they
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: had sold out 455 straight games, I mean, you transformed
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: the whole city. And to be able to deliver a championship,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: During that era when your team was just so exceptionally
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: dynamic for that, you know, at least five to six
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: year window, unfortunately, you guys get cut short in 1994
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: during the strike season. But for that, you would have
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: had another playoff run. It just seems as you look
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: back at that era, it was the most dominant offense
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: in the game. And I know John always used to
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: like to build the back end of the bullpen. Your
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: starting pitching was obviously very good. but that the offense
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: was the calling card. And I'll share a quick champagne
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: story with you. In game six of the 2011 World
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Series that we underwent, famously lost with the Texas Rangers
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: when I think at some point we had like a 97%
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: chance to win. We got into the clubhouse after the game.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: All the lockers were still taped off. They still had
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: the champagne. They were literally wheeling out of the room
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: as our players walked in. I know this was unintentional,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: but as much as you said when John left to
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: change his suit, you knew you were doomed. When I
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: saw our players walk by the cases of champagne, I
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: knew there was no way we were recovering from that
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: or unlikely to recover from that. It was just a
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: dagger through the heart to see that and see how
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: close you are to have it taken away.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: I look at it now as that, you know, I
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: do think winning is fleeting. You know, flags fly forever,
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: but interest doesn't. And the down part of winning is
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: you got to do it all over again. You know,
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: looking back at it now, I'm so grateful that I
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: got to experience that emotion. You know, you can go
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: through an entire lifetime and never experience that, you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: the type of emotional swings that sports provide. So, man,
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: I wish we would have won. That'd be a picture
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: behind me now would be of a World Series ring.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But ultimately, at the end of the day, I'm so
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: proud of what we accomplished there. And what a perfect
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: storm of everything coming together at the right time and great,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: great scouting and development that went on in that organization.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: It's one of the cruelest things of sports that finishing
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: in second place in a 30-team league is deemed as
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: the first loser, not as something that you should hold
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: your head high about. I think we should all hold
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: our head high about that. That's an exceptional accomplishment.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, to this day, I feel great about it.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: It was a fluke.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: We would have won, it might have been a fluke,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: and we lost, it might have been a fluke. So
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: I'm just very grateful to have gone through that experience.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: I can sympathize with Mr. Hart and the sport coat.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: In Chicago in 2003, I bought a round of victory
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: shots a little too early, and the Bartman fiasco unfolded
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: 30 seconds after we downed them. So we were at
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: a Chicago bar celebrating, and lo and behold, the worst
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: meltdown in baseball in the last 25 years.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: So, Chet, you were really the one responsible for them losing.
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they should have probably just came after me. They
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: should have probably came after me.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Poor Bartman.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: All right, folks, we're going to take a break here
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: real quick, but we will be back with Dan O'Dowd.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: On rosters to rings.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Okay, Dan, I'm going to take you forward a couple years.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: Let's go to the offseason in 99. You had some
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: success there with Cleveland, obviously, throughout the 90s. You become
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: the belle of the ball, as they say. You're courted
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: by a number of teams with general manager openings. You
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: interview with Seattle, Milwaukee, Colorado. Most people who interview for
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: a GM job never actually become a GM. Those who
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: do typically interview for several openings before winning a job. Sure,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: you are being recruited by three major league teams. What
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: drove you to the Rockies? What was it about that organization?
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Delusional optimism. It was kind of a process elimination.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, in a perfect world, I would have gone
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: to Seattle, but my My wife's mom was really ill
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: at the time, passed away not long after that. And
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I just didn't feel comfortable taking her that far across
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: the country. She grew up in a small little town
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: in Ohio, but Chuck Armstrong was really persistent. And Hank Peters,
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: who was my mentor in the game, was really pushing
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: me towards Seattle because of his relationship with Chuck. In reality,
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: in hindsight, I probably should have taken the Milwaukee job.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: It was something about, you know, having been in the
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: Midwest for, you know, 13, 14 years and wanting to
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: change and looking at the small market nature of the
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Brewers versus, you know, Colorado was a newer franchise and
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: it's sat on the four corners. You could see from
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: a market standpoint, it could explode. I had been a
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: director of player development with the Indians and we had
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: our AAA team in Colorado Springs. So I thought that
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: I had some familiarity with altitude baseball. it turns out
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't have any compared to what I went through.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: And so it was a really tough situation. I didn't
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: really want to leave the Indians. I had signed a
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: multi-year contract to stay in Cleveland. John was going to
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: become the president of the club. I was going to
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: become the GM. John then famously just flipped his switch
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: on me one day and said, I don't want to
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: do that. I really don't see myself as a president
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: of a club. I want to stay in the active
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: role as a GM, which I respected that, but I
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: was like, well, that's not very thoughtful as relates to me.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: But I think I was probably a little immature at
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: the time because I had a pretty good situation there
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: with a really long-term roots in the community and a
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: path to stay good for a long period of time.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that Dick and David Jacobs were going
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: to sell the team, even though they had taken it public.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't know soon after that they would look to
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: sell the team. So the Orioles called to ask permission
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: from me. I started my career there. And I'll digress
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: because this is kind of a funny story and I
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: can tell it now because Peter Angelos is no longer
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: with us.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I would never share it while he was alive. It
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be disrespectful.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: And so in 1998, I flew in while we were
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: playing the Yankees into Baltimore to interview on a Sunday morning.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: I knew it was my job to have. And his son, Louis,
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: picked me up at the airport, took me to his
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: law firm in downtown Baltimore, walked into his conference room.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: It's a hundred chairs, like It's gigantic where all the,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: they came in to have their master meetings. I sit
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: in one seat on the end of the boardroom. He
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: walks in, sits on the other side, like literally. So
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: I'm on one side, he's on the other side. We
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: need a megaphone and his son is sitting in the
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: middle of us. And for the first 30 minutes, all
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: he did was tell me exactly what needed to be
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: done with the club. And then he proceeded to not
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: say very kind things about the previous regime, as Pat Gillick,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: who I had tremendous respect for in the game. And
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: me being a little bit of the smart-ass Irishman I
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: actually am, he goes, well, you have any questions?
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: I said, yeah. How many partners do you have here?
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: And he looked at me and said, you really are
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: smart-ass because you know the answer to that before you asked.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: And the answer to that was zero.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: And the first 40 minutes of the discussion demonstrated why
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: he had no partners. And literally that ended the conversation.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: That ended the interview.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: Turned you off a little bit.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: No, he ended the interview.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: Oh, he just ended it. He ended it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I was done. He asked Louis to take me back
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: to the airport.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: Knowing that if I didn't get the job, the Indians
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: had already let me know they're going to let me go.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: And so the 99 season was a very, very interesting
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: year for me and my family. And some really interesting
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: things came out of that. But then you know, opportunities
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: started to come up in the game and, you know,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: we had had so much success.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: With the, with the Indians.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: I don't think I really took into fact Bud Seelig's
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: impact in the game to turn down the Brewers job.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: And in hindsight, I think that I probably could have
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: had a lot more success there because I wouldn't have
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: been dealing with the variety of altitude issues that completely
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: overwhelmed me the first three years into the job.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about those altitude issues.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: I'm curious. So you, You know, things broke the way
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: they did. Luckily, the Rockies got you for 15 years.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: You applied your creativity to turning perhaps the most formidable
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: challenge in all of professional sports was playing at altitude
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: into a competitive advantage. All we hear about is the
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: Coors Field game, the Coors Field game. You know, it's,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: you know, we hear about players averages away from Coors
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: at Coors. If we were around the clock to 99,
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: how would you approach tackling altitude knowing all that you
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: know now?
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I would have done is I
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: would have been more forceful. I interviewed on a platform
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: of what I did in Cleveland, or not I, but
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: what we did in Cleveland. And at that time, when
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: I took over the Rockies, there were, like I did
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: in Cleveland, there was very, Matt Holiday was there. There
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: just wasn't many players within the system. So I had
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: done all my analysis of their organization. So I went
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: in there and said, listen, we need to take a
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: step back here before we can take multiple steps forward.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: So let's take whatever, you know, assets that we have
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: at the big league level. So that was, uh, Vinny Castillo,
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Larry Walker, uh, wasn't Todd Helton, but it was Dante Pichette.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: It was a whole grouping of guys, Darrell Kyle.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: Um, and let's just turn those into multiple younger players
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: and then let's redo our drafting and development philosophy. And
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: let's try to do this over a significant period of
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: time and build an infrastructure until I can really get
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: my handle on like, what are we actually dealing with here? Well,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: when I got hired, I assumed that was going to
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: be the playbook. And about six months into the job,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Jerry McMorris, who Thad knows very well, walked in. Because
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: I had done this, what I called, we had done
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: this blueprint for success in Cleveland. It was a document.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: So I had done the same thing in Colorado. He
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: threw it on my desk and said, you know what?
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: We're not doing that. Our ticket sales are terrible. We
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: need to win and we need to win now. It
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: might have even been three months into it because we
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: still had the off season to try to play with.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: And so I think in hindsight, I would have not
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: moved off that position. I would have held firm, saying
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: that's not the basis of why you hired me. I'm
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: entering an area that I'm not comfortable. I don't know
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: if I'm good at doing this. I know I'm good
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: at doing that. And so starting out the gate, I
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: should have you know, just taken my time. Because as
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: soon as I traded Bichette and all those groupings, Vinny Castillo,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: I became the villain in Denver. And I never dug
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: out of that villain mode in Denver.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: And no one ever told me that.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: And so it's not like I got revolutionary guys back.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: I got guys back that were major league players because
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I couldn't take players back that were prospects. And so
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: I should have just, but Jimmy Leland had come to
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: me and said, this grouping's not gonna work, you gotta
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: blow it up and get rid of them. And so
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: I trusted Jimmy's judgment, but in reality I should have said, well, Jimmy,
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I trust your judgment, but since you're leaving, let me
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: just take a year of my own to figure out
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: what I should do and what I shouldn't do here.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: You know, that's a very valuable lesson I learned there.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: You know, I didn't get a chance to apply it
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: again anywhere else, but it's a very, very valuable lesson.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: I think if I was able to slow the roll
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: down a little bit, I would have realized a couple
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: different things. So what I thought was an issue with
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: pitching in Coors Field.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Was an issue.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: But what I didn't think was an issue in Coors
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Field was hitting on the road. That was a real issue.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: And so if I had my arms wrapped around both
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: of those issues, I would have focused our drafting and
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: development process from the get-go in a way different way
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: than I did when I took over the job. And
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: so how would I have arrived at it differently? I
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: would have definitely, if I could do it all over again,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: I would have approached pitching differently there than anybody's ever
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: approached pitching in the history of the game. And Thad
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Levine knows a gentleman named Bobby McClure who developed this
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: white paper called the piggyback pitching model. And that was,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Bobby did that before anybody else did that. That would
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: have worked there, but it would have had to been
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: done from a foundational standpoint of starting it out in
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: rookie ball and then a ball, then high a ball,
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: then double a ball and triple a ball. And because
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: you would have, you would have had access to more
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: pitching than you, than I ever had there. Pitching that
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: would have worked and it would have been interchangeable parts.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: From a hitting standpoint, I think I just would have
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: developed models around hitters that made high contact rates, controlled
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: the strike zone more, certainly would have enjoyed having some power,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: but I would have sacrificed a little bit more power
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: for guys that had those two qualities and were exceptionally
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: athletic to be able to play defense at a very
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: high level in the largest square footage ballpark in the
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: history of the game. So anyway, that's a long answer
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: to a very short question.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: No, it's I, have they figured it out yet? Have
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: they figured this pitching thing out yet?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: No, they haven't.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: But if that had gotten the job in Colorado, which
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: he should have, um, I would have worked real hard
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: to try to get him to understand that the definition
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: of insanity is trying to do the same thing, the
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: same way, uh, that they've always done that haven't worked. And, um,
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: But anyway, he might not have agreed with me, but
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: that's how I would have done it differently based upon
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: my living that experience.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Well, Dan, you've highlighted a lot there, not the least
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: of which is how vital the relationship is between the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: general manager and the owner. And how often sometimes when
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you change your plan, it's because it's directed by the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: owner and they've shifted the sand underneath your feet. And
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: for somebody who, you know, you were still a young
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: man at that time to stand up to the owner
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: and say, no, we're absolutely going to do it my way,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: not the way you're, you're projecting. It's tough to do
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: in the moment. There's immense pressure behind the scenes on
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: some of these roles.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: You know, I.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Moved my wife, two kids. We didn't have a third child.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: You know, I was worried about paying bills. I was
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: worried about real life issues. Um, I think the thing
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: that I miss Fred on ownership that I would do
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: a better job of, and I would advise young people
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: to do, um, you can't work for owners that have
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: a high degree of volatility in their personality. Because, you know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the most important quality that a GM and owner can
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: have is pain tolerance. Because the game creates incredible pain.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: And Cherry, I mean, you know, he's no longer with us.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: And I really, really, I really like Cherry, but He
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: was very volatile, and the game itself is set up
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: for volatility. It's such an emotional swing. Coors Field is
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: like you put that on steroids because of the swings
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: and just the games itself.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I wasn't mature.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: My emotional maturity at the time didn't take a step
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: back to recognize the characteristics of owners the way that
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: I should have because in Cleveland, I worked for a
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: very stable man. And both of them, Dick and David Jacob,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: they were mall developers. They were used to speculative development.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: They were very non-emotional people. They never got excited about
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: a win, never got excited about a loss. But in Baltimore,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: I worked forever. Bennett Williams and he was, and Larry Locchino,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: they were crazy. I was just too young at the
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: time to really wrap my arms around what that meant.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: But in Colorado, Jerry was just, you know, Dick is
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: way more unemotional than Jerry, but Jerry was the owner
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: for most of my career there at the beginning, and
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: he was crazy volatile. Whereas Bud Selig, I misread that
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: because he had no volatility because he had owned a team.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: He was a real baseball guy. He understood the ups
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: and downs and the ebbs and flows of the game
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: of baseball.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: Does that have more to do with it if the
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: owner understands the game versus is emotionally involved in having
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: that trophy piece?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the hardest thing for owners in the game,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: and it was hard for me too, I think it's
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: not that I was intellectually gifted, like Thad is intellectually gifted.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: I would say I had 50% of the intellectual gifts
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: that Thad have. But smart people in general, smart people
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: in general feel that their intellectual capabilities can problem solve anything.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: But that doesn't work in a game of baseball. It's
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: just too unpredictable. There's more shades of gray in the
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: game of baseball than black and white. So people that
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: have built successful businesses and have problem solved, and just
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: through the sure will of determination and perseverance and vision
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: and competitiveness, they created these great companies. So they just
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: feel like you can take those attributes and translate them
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: into running a baseball team when, I mean, those attributes are.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Still really, really important.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: But it's more important that you just realize that you've
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: got to accept the ebbs and flows and the unpredictable
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: nature of human beings trying to play a very, very
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: difficult game at the highest level every single day.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Dan, I think you said it just right, which is
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: these guys have been hyper successful in their lives, but
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: they almost have never been public figures. When you own
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: a baseball team, you're a public figure. And so as
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: a general manager who's taking one of these jobs, It
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: would sure be nice to know how they handle negative
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: publicity because typically that's when you show the character of
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: their stability. And when the fans come crashing down on them,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: they tend to walk right to your office and demand
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: change because they don't want to be made to look
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: bad in their communities where they built up all this
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: wealth and all this equity when now all of a
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: sudden the fans turn on them.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think that I interviewed the– I was
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: so anxious to get a job. I don't think I
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: interviewed the owner as much as he interviewed me. And
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I knew that I was in a real precarious situation.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: This is a great story, is that we overachieved in 2000.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: We went 82 and 80 and the team had never won.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: It was a really fun team to watch too. Very exciting,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: but I knew it wasn't a good team. It's just
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: a team that overachieved. And Jerry said, we're going to
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: go for it. I want you to sign the best
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: starting pitcher on the market. And I just... I just
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: got through. I said, Jerry, we don't have the money
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: to do that. You just told me that, you know,
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: he goes, well, I just want you to get me
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: a meeting. So at that time, Mike Hampton was the
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: guy who profiled for us the best because it was
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: almost 60% sinker ball rates. And at that time, since
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: we didn't really have the technology to measure the way
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: they do today, it was your measurements all based pretty
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: much on results and performance rather than pitch shaping and
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: things that are evident in today's game. So we had
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: a meeting with Mark Rogers, his agent, Buddy Bell, who's
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: the manager, myself, Jerry McMorris, and he hands Mark Rogers
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: a napkin at the meeting and says, just write your
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: offer and whatever it is, we're good to go.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: And Buddy Bell looks at me and says, do we
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: have this kind of money?
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: And it was a really hilarious moment. It may not
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: seem like that right now, but in the moment it
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: was like, I have no idea. Well, it turns out
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: we didn't have the money. We signed him, but as
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: soon as he didn't pitch well, we didn't have the money.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: So it's just interesting.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: The highlight of the Mike Hampton career was that he
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: won a silver slugger for the Colorado Rockies, I think,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: in his first year.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: And he made the all-star team that first year.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: It was a great hitting pitcher.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just to show how inclusive Dan was, at that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: time I was a glorified intern coach And I remember
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: when that signing took place, we met in the president's
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: office and everyone raised a glass of champagne. And then
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Hal Roth, who is the longtime CFO said, Hey, just
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: so everyone knows based upon what we just spent on him,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: unless we go to the world series, we're not going
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: to be able to make payroll at the end of
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the year. And I think we all kind of spit
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: our champagne back in our glasses and said, Oh, I
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: think we may have made a mistake here.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: It's one of those signings where you knew it wasn't
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: going to work no matter what it turns out, you know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: Mark Rogers begged to get out of there and you know, Creatively,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: we were able to get out of the contract.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: But it was at a price, cost us one pierre.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: But it just, Thad just said it well, it's just,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: there's so many dynamics that go into your career. Like,
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: you know, that first, that 2001 season, we had an
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: opportunity to make one of the trades, you know, and Thad,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: you had mentioned this to me in the notes you
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: had sent to me. Very rarely in your career do
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: you get a chance to make a trade that resets
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: the entire franchise. And Gord Ash, who was the general
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: manager at that time, Pat Gillick had left, handed over
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: to his long-term assistant, Gord Ash.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And they were on the, you know, they had been
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: good for years. They took a step back. They were
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: desperate to win.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Pedro Stasio was their guy. They loved Jose Jimenez, who
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: was our closer at the time. They had three young players.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Carpenter was a guy that, I mean, Holiday was a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: guy we wanted to get because he was a Colorado guy.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: They weren't going to trade Holiday, not even straight up
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: under any circumstance. But Because we pushed so hard on Holiday,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: he offered us Carpenter, Kelvin Escobar, and Vernon Wells for
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: those three guys. All young guys, not making any money.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: And Josh Burns, who was the assistant GM and I,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: went in to the office, Jerry's office at that time. And,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: you know, it was a trading deadline, made a proposal,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: gave through the scouting reports, told them this resets our franchise.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: This is like, we'll never get this kind of offer again. They,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: he and Dick was in there too, said, and Kelly
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: was in there too. And we'll get back to you.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: They came back to me and said, no, we're not
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: going to do the deal. I think Josh Burns at
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: that moment made a mind up he was leaving. He
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: never told me that, but I'm convinced to this day,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: you know, that's, that hit put him over the edge
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: because he said that You know, if you don't make
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: these kind of baseball trades, then you literally have no,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: you know, it's going to be a long time before
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: you're good again. So, you know, a lot of things
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: that happen in your career, you just don't have any
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: control over them.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: That was one of them.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Well, sometimes, Dan, you could say hindsight's 20-20 and we
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: thought that deal was good. We knew that deal was good.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: We knew that deal was good.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: We knew those players were excellent. They proved to be excellent.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: That would have transformed the organization. And it also gives
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you a greater appreciation for the job you're doing as
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: a general manager. When sometimes your hand is tied behind
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: your back, there's only so far you can go without
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: ownership approval. They do need to step in and support
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: your moves.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: It's tough to do. I'd let go of the anger
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: of that because at the end of the day, I mean,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I own a business now. And so I get it.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Whoever's writing the checks has the opportunity and the right
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: to determine what they want to do and don't want
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: to do. And until you're in a position where you
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: own a team, that just comes with part of the gig.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: But the unfortunate part is it goes, your wins and
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: losses go on your resume, but the stories don't behind it.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: And that's just what you have to live with in
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: your career.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why you come on Rosters to Rings. And
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: we've got one more story we want to tease out
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: of you before we dive into 2026. And that surrounds
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: one of the star players in your tenure with the Rockies,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Matt Holliday. So we talked about Rocktober 2007. The team
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: wins 21 of the last 22 games, including famously winning
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: an epic game against the San Diego Padres, then sweeping
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the both the Division Series against the Phillies and the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: CS against the Diamondbacks. And Matt Holliday, just to tease
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: everyone here a little bit, put up like some crazy
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: video game numbers. He has 36 home runs, 120 runs,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: 137 RBIs, 340, 405, 607. He leads the team with
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: 6.9 more. He finished as second in the NL MVP.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: He famously slides headfirst, skins his chin first, Not sure
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: if he ever touched home plate, but they never caught
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the ball. So he was called safe by Tim McClellan.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: You guys win. He also wins the MVP of the NLCS.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: But what fans may not know is that a couple
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: years prior to this, Dan, you had a very direct
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: conversation with Matt Holliday and his agent, Jot Hartley, that
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: changed the trajectory of his career and maybe even of
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: all of our careers because he had a choice to
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: make whether he was going to play baseball or do
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: something else. Can you share with the group here a
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: little bit of that conversation you had with Matt and John?
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I inherited Matt. So Pat Daugherty and
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: his group drafted Matt. So I got Matt and Matt
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: was a physically impressive guy. He was very crude in
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: the game of baseball and he had the football. He
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: was a tremendous high school football player in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: And he had opportunities.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: Broke all of Aikman's records.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: You know what's crazy about that?
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: He could throw a football like 60, 70 yards in
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: a year, but he had a below-average arm in baseball.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: I've never been able to correlate the both of that. Anyway,
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I felt like Matt had one foot in football and
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: one foot in baseball. And John, his agent, was driving
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: me crazy and wanted me to renegotiate what they signed
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: for to buy him out of football. And I just,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: out of principle, I just don't believe in doing that
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: because I think that never ends. Because to be great
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: at the game of baseball, you have to love it.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: You can't have passion for it. You have to love
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: it because it's not going to love you back very much.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: And so that basically was the conversation. Either you're in
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: or you're out. And if you're out, we love you.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: best to your career, but we're not going to play
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: this dance anymore. And we're going to move on as
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: an organization with or without you. I'm really glad he
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: decided to not, you know, walk away and play football
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: because I think he made a really, really good decision.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: You know, he blew out his elbow not long after
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: that and had to have Tommy John. And I was
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: slow with his development process. I made him spend two
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: years in AA, but then I didn't make him hardly
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: spend any time in AAA at all. And then he
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: got to the big leagues and the rest is history.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: But I think that hopefully taught, I mean, I don't
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: think he was real happy with me. To this day,
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: he probably doesn't even like me very much. But I
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: just felt like at the time, he was a great
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: player who was a little entitled because he was such
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: a tremendous athlete. And his father was very active. Tom
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: was a great baseball man, very active in his career.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: And we had to draw some lines in the sand here.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: It was just going to get blurred forever.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: But Dan, that's what I recall about it is that
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: We were on like the second or third off season
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: of them threatening that he was going to go back
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: to college because he had to make a choice there.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: He couldn't put that off forever. And I think until
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: you put it to him that he had to make
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: a decision, he was never 100% in either baseball or football.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: It was when he then decided to become 100% in
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: that he took off and his career never looked back.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I think but for you challenging him at that level,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I think he could have vacillated a little bit longer.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: And as you know, the game's tough enough when you're 100%
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: focused on it, when you're like, 75% focused on it.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: It's not going to allow you to excel at the
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: level you can. You afforded him a very difficult choice,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: but from that difficult choice, I think, came his ability
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: to realize his full potential and be the best version
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: of himself. I think outside of making that decision, I'm
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: not sure he would have ever done that.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: To me, he's a Hall of Fame type player. I
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: wish he never left Colorado. I wish he should have
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: retired as a Rocky to this day. I still regret
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: the whole contractual situation that Scott and I went through
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: over him, but that's just Scott. And that's Boris, I mean.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: And so but I'm very happy for Matt and Leslie.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: They're tremendous people and they went on to have a
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: great career. And I played very small part of that.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: And I'm happy to be a part of that story.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: I think that was a linchpin in his career. Stay
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: with us for the break. We promised some conversation about
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: 2026 and looking forward in baseball. We'll get to it
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: right after the break here on Rosters to Rinks.
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: Let's get started with our questions and bring ourselves up
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: to the current day and time here. Dan, when fans
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: think about a general manager, and there has been a
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: little volatility in the title of a general manager over
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: the last 20, 25 years and president of baseball operations,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: but they think about trades, free agent signings, the draft.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: You've actually sat in that chair. If you took us
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: inside Major League Front Office today, what is the person
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: running baseball operations really spend most of his or her
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: time doing? And how different is that job today from
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: when you took over the Rockies in 99?
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I think today is more, uh, managing information. I think
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: And I think the background, you know, you always gravitate
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: in life to what you're most comfortable with. So if
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: you're not most comfortable with living in a world where you,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: you know, the numbers, you can extract, extrapolate numbers to
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: mean something.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Um, That's the world you're going to stay in.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: I grew up in a game where I would say
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: the interpersonal relationships were more important than numbers because we
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: really didn't have numbers to work with. And I think
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: the perfect blend would probably be figuring out a way
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: to use both of them to your advantage. But I
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: think front officers set up.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: One way or the other right now.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: You do. You don't think teams have the right balance
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: or have figured out the right balance yet.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: I would hate to paint everybody with the same brush
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: because I think some of them do.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: Who do you think's got that balance at this point?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: The ones that win.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: The ones that win. That easy. You wouldn't say that
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: there are certain programs doing it right right now. Certain
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: clubs doing it right consistently. Is this kind of an
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: ebb and flow? Like they've got it for a little bit,
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: then they lose it if somebody goes out the door?
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: Or how is that? Or do some of them have
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: a philosophy they carried with them for years? It seems like,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: you know, the Dodgers may have the right philosophy right now.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: They have the number one farm system in the first place.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: I think the Dodgers, the Brewers, the Braves, the Phillies,
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: I think those cultures have been established over a very,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: very long period of time. I think Andrew bought with him.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: You know, Andrew made the greatest decision of his career
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: that no one talks about. you know, cause he had
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: no background in the game of baseball at all. And
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: when he took the Tampa Bay job, he hired Jerry
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: Hunsaker to be a special assistant. And Jerry taught him,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: taught him how to do that job.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, Dan, on that, on that note, you know,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: I parted ways with the twins in 2024. I joined
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: the Brewers in 2026. And when I was, trying to
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: get back into the game, I immediately looked at all
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the teams and I was shocked to see how few
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: teams have hired former general managers to work alongside the
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: current general manager. Because I would just think if I
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: was in that role, I would absolutely hire a former
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: general manager. You have to have the right partner in that,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I think for sure. But just to share the wisdom,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: the experience and be the sounding board is so vital.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I was just so surprised how few teams do it. Obviously,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: the teams you just referenced do do it. The Dodgers
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: do it. Tampa Bay has done it. Milwaukee has done it.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: And it's not all the teams you would necessarily think of.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Toronto does it. But it was surprising to me that
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: more don't just do that. In Fortune 500 companies, we
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: have boards of advisors and boards of directors you get
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to use as sounding boards in advisory roles. We don't
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: do that in baseball, and I think we're far behind
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: in that regard. The teams that are successful do tend
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: to do that.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a reason for that, though, that
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: why more clubs don't do it. I don't think it's
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: just happenstance. I think the people don't want to do
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: it because they don't want to be uncomfortable. You know,
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: the one thing about data, like a week ago, the
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: Marlins dissipated, basically blew up their entire scouting.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And I didn't say this well on air. If I
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: could go back and do it differently.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: The one thing that that data does, it furthers a
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: groupthink process within the front office. So you can validate
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: any data you want depending upon how you mine the
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: data for what you're looking for. Scouts as a whole
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: are very opinionated people. They see something and then they
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: report on what they see even if it doesn't line
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: up with your data. XGMs are going to just, they're
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: going to basically give you information based upon their experience.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: If that experience doesn't line up with a validation of
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: where they're trying to go with their decision-making process, they're
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: not going to want to have a person involved in
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: that process. And I think that's prevalent in our game
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: right now. I just don't understand why owners wouldn't want
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: a counter-check process to their decision-making process. Somebody that threw
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: grenades in the decision-making process just to make sure that
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: they've actually looking at it from the right vantage point.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: But it is what it is. I think it's bad
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: for the game. It doesn't happen in the NFL. It
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: doesn't happen in the NHL. It doesn't happen in the NBA.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Let me explain, too. I don't think a lot of
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: experience means you have wisdom. There are a lot of
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: people out there that have a lot of experience.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: That have no wisdom.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Because they haven't learned anything from the experience you're getting.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: But there are a lot of people out there with
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: experience and wisdom because they've grown a lot from all
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: the mistakes and failures they went through to get to
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: that point.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I think, Dan, the tie there is that you
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: have to be humble, right? You have to be retrospective.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: The game does that to you.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: You have to be introspective.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: Right, right.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: But the people who don't have that humility aren't the
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: people you want advising you in that scenario. And I
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: couldn't agree with you more. I think, of course, we
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: all want more information to inform our decisions. Of course,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: that is true. If I were an owner, my concern
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: would be when your general manager and his leadership team
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: always justify inactivity. Because if you want to, you can
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: apply the data, the information, the resources to justify why
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to or why not to do anything. And our jobs
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: are to try to win. We're trying to thrive on
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: behalf of the organization. These jobs are coveted though. And
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: so we all are prone to slip into a survival
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: mode at times where we just want to survive till tomorrow.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: I think if you have the right leadership team, usually
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: headed up by somebody who has sat in that seat
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: who reminds you, Hey, we're in this to thrive, not
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: just to survive. That's, That's what we owe our fan
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: bases and our marketplaces. The owner should be more concerned
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: when I'm just trying to win the Prudence Award by
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: never doing anything because inactivity is a lot more difficult
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: to evaluate, in my opinion, than activity. Everyone wants a
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: piece of critiquing what you do, but if you don't
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: do something, people don't really know how to evaluate that,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: including the owner.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: Fear is probably the most dominant emotion in sports in general.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: And it's crazy because it's fear of the unknown. And 90%
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: of what you think is going to happen in the
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: future that's going to be bad for you never happens.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: The other 10% you actually have nothing to do about anyway.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: But fear is a really controlling emotion in sports. And
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: it's very, very prevalent within our game.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Dan, do you feel like baseball has gotten to the
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: point where some front offices are more driven by the
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: desire to win deals, so to speak, than they are
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: the commitment to winning games and ultimately championships?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I think they're driven to look smart.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: Be the smartest guy in the room.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't always align with winning. I, I, I
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: have found that.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I agree with that.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: And I will say it's very different when you're negotiating
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: with somebody who's trying to get a great deal versus
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: somebody who wants to get a great player. I want
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: to negotiate with you when you're hunting a very good player,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: when you're just trying to get the best deal you can,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: it's a much different type of negotiation.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: And that's, that's changed over the year.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: The Walsh Hockey, Kevin Towers, both late, late Walsh Hockey,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: late Kevin Towers, Billy Bain, myself. David Dabrowski, I never
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: wanted to take advantage of somebody in a trade. I'd
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: always wanted it to be a win-win situation because you
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: got to walk across that bridge at some point in time. Again,
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: and honestly, I wanted to put the player that's getting
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: traded in the best possible situation too so they can
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: have some success on where they're going.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: That's just a different mindset, I think.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: There's not the same interpersonal relationships that used to exist
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: in our game currently because I think technology has changed that.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Dan, I'll take it one step further. All those guys
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: you just talked about, there was a fraternity that was
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: working in baseball. And if you went to the GM meetings,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: you could sit down with a Billy Bean or a
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Kevin Towers or a Jim Hendrick. I never worked for
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: any of those three guys. They all mentored me at
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: different times in my career because they were in it
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: for the betterment.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Of the game. Yes, they loved the game.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Today's GM is more covetous of information and disinclined to
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: share things with other people. Those guys would share, if
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: you were willing to listen and you had some humility,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: they were willing to share their, their, their knowledge with you.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I learned a lot from all those guys. Absolutely.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: You know, I, fans tend to think like, you know,
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: you got a general manager puts a 26 man roster
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: out there and the manager optimizes the roster to try
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: to win in today's game. How much of the managers
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: involved in roster construction, and the front office involved in
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: what we see on the field. I mean, are they
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: getting into more of what's going on on the field now?
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think managers are involved much. Even the
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: better clubs, I don't think they involve. Thad, you would
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: probably have a better feel for this than I would.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: But the managers that I talk to in the game,
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: even the better ones, aren't that involved in roster construction.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: It's kind of out of their ball of expertise. I
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: can understand that to an extent because managers– You're going
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: to think this is crazy, but when you watch a
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: game from the dugout, it skews you from watching a
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: game from Skybox.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: You just see everything differently.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: If a player plays well against your team over a
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: 15-game span, that manager is going to love that player.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: So I do understand why... The managers aren't involved in
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: roster construction. I just think you've got to keep them
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: informed if you're ever going to develop a trusting relationship.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I think the opposite, though.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: There's way more teams involved in what's going on in
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: the clubhouse, and those are the teams that don't win.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: Thad, did you ever bring your manager or Rocco or
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: anybody in on a player acquisition?
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with Dan more. I'm thinking of all
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: the managers I worked with in my career. More were
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: not involved in the player personnel decisions. but Rocco Baldelli,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: to your point, Chet, was absolutely, he had a bit
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: of a scouting background with Tampa before he got into
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: the dugout. He was just genuinely interested. Dan, he would
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: come in the draft. He would spend a day or
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: two in the draft. He just really genuinely cared about
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: talent evaluation and roster creation. But he stands out to
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: me as one of the few in my career that
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: was more prominent in those conversations. But I think, Dan,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: when you When I was growing up in the game,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: there was a little bit more of that separation of
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: church and state where the GM put together the team
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: and then the manager kind of deployed the team to
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: try to win. And you would hope there would be
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: a good relationship between them, but there wasn't always. I
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: think there is a lot more overlap and integration now.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: But to your point, it's a lot more one-sided where
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: the front office is infusing their thoughts into what's going
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: on in the clubhouse probably a little bit more than
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: they're incorporating the manager's voice and ear into roster construction.
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: Even all the way down to stuff happening on the field,
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: like lineups and defensive positioning, player workload, stuff like that.
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: It's all coming down kind of from the top.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say for everybody. I think the clubs
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that are organizations are really run well. Um, There is
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: this tremendous respectful relationship between this is the information.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: This is how we think each player should be used.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: This is how each player can get better. But that's
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: passed along to a designated individual on the staff that
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: disseminates that through the coaches and the manager. But the
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: manager has the final say. I feel once your players
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: know the manager does not have the final say, he's
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: a dead man walking.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Dan. So much incredible content
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: that we're going to make two episodes with Dan O'Dowd.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: So join us next week on Rosters to Rings for
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: part two with Dan O'Dowd.