Latest / WoT Spoilers / A Choice - Towers of Midnight chapter20 - EP556

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A Choice - Towers of Midnight chapter20 - EP556 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: This recording is going to be long as fuck, but
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: it's on. And then we have the other podcasts. I've
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: already got a picture from Doctor Pants. Thank y'all excellent.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Like the student that always turns in the homework at
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: the beginning of class and still instead of waiting for
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: the teacher to be like, hey, go ahead and turn
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: in your homework, it's like sitting there on the desk.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Not that it's all work. I really appreciate it, but
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: they always look so good, right, Yeah, Well, you know
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: I was a teacher. I like to be clear about
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: what the expectations are. I'm going to tell you what
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you that I'm going to tell you,
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to tell you what I told you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I have applied that strategy to the used to SEW
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: podcast to do a little intro outro that like describes
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: what the episode will be and then what we covered
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: in the episode, like based on notes that I took
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: as I'm editing, you know, fractling outwardthing. But I was like,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be very because like, especially when we started,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: my mom often didn't really do much of an intro.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: She would just go right into it, and I was like,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: that's a little abrupt, totally, like we need an on
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: ramp into this. And now it's like a whole like
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: part of the rhythm of creating them. It's like, well,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: there has to be a little capstone bookend thing to it.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: And I feel like with us, it's like we're doing
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: this chapter right like and that sort of is usually
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: our lead in because we don't have to do much
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: more than that.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is a very unique format.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the prereinstructure of going through chapter by chapter is
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: certainly it gives us a structure that we didn't have
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: to invent ourselves.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Speaking structure, we're here today to do Nainieve's testing, which
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: is exciting.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: Very exciting.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: One of the the very first appearance I ever made
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: on this show was for her accepted test.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, it's been that long since she was accepted.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my very first scratchy connection into the show,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: first time caller, short time listener. So it's like, yet again,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: we're coming full circle around to something that reminds me
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: of the very first time I joined in. Now we're
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: here for her SHAWL test, which you know, we haven't
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: seen a Shawl test since New Spring, right, so we
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: will be referring to the New Spring set of chapters
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: quite a bit as we go through this, which is.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Going to be chapter nine and ten in New Spring
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: if you'd like to read along. But that was Moraine's
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: rising up to I said, I because we haven't seen
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: anybody else.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: No, those are the only two do we ever get?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: And yeah, Moraines was about twenty years ago. None of
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: these women were necessarily involved in her raising because a
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: sitters of them weren't even eyes to die at the time.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of the form of the test is
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: the same, not just the ritual, but like the kinds
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: of things they put her through. And Sanderson was obviously
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: cribbing from that. I think it makes sense in world
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: canonically that everyone will have to deal with an insect phobia.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I feel like you don't have to be a lazy
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: writer to like go for insect as like a thing
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: to torture people with. But Sanderson clearly did more than
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: follow the bare minimum of compatibility. He did a lot
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: of copy and paste in some ways.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: There was He definitely had New Spring open while he
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: was writing this chapter. Suicide by side. There's no doubt
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: in my mind, right, Like, there's too many similarities, and
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: including the one little error we found which got corrected. Teaser. Yeah,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: but yeah, it's it's very clear that, like those two
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: are are he's using that as a template. And so
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of the environment, a lot of the approach,
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: a lot of the walk down, a lot of the
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: description of the terran rial, a lot of the structure
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: of going from star to star, all of that comes
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: from very obviously New Spring.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so with that, I will start the reading for
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: chapter twenty a choice and the symbol is a six
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: pointed star set into tile.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: Which I believe. Also, yeah, this is also the star
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: in New Spring, right, Okay, that makes sense in that chapter.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: So you know, but I don't think we've seen it
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: very many other times. I think maybe once or twice
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: until I runri odd. It's a rare chapter icon.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's got a very specific use case. You
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: have to be in a very specific headspace in order
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: to have the star apply.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: According to Encyclopedia Watt, there are only two chapters with
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: this icon.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, this and the Testing.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: New Spring chapter nine.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Yep, Okay, there you have it. It's literally an icon
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: created for this specific context of doing an isidye test.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Which, for as much as I've complained about the icons,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: I'm glad to see one that's like a kind of
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: rare instead of just another wolf dragon dice one.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: It could have been the Flame of Tarball one.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's yeah, totally they could have done that
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: without a problem, the White Flame.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: All right, I read. You must not speak, Rozil said
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: to Nineve, the slender, long necked woman worn orange dress
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: slashed with yellow. At least speak only when spoken to,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: you know the ceremony. Ninieve nodded, her heart beating treacherously
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: as they walked into the dungeon like depths of the
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: White Tower. Rosil was the new mistress of Novices and
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: a member of the Yellow Ajia. By coincidence, excellent excellent
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Rosill said, might I suggest you move the ring to
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: the third finger of your left hand? You may suggest it,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Nineve said, but did not move the ring. She had
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: been named eyes today she would knock youve in on
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that point. Roseill pursed her lips but said nothing further.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: The woman had shown nine remarkable kindness during her short
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: time in the White Tower, which had been a relief.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Nineve had grown to expect that every Yellow sister would
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: regard her with disdain or at least indifference. Oh, they
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: thought she was talented, and many insistently being trained by her,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: but they did not think of her as one of them.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Not yet.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: This woman was different, and being a burr in her
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: sandal was a good repayment. It is important to me, Rosil.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Ninieve explained that I not give any indication of disrespect
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: for the omrelin she named me eyes Sadai. To act
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: as if I were merely accept it would be to
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: undermine her words. This test is important. When the Omelin
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: raised me, she never said I need not be tested,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: but I am eyes to die. Rosil cocked her head,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: then nodded, yes, I see you are correct. Ninieve stopped
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: in the dim corridor. I want to thank you and
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the others who have welcomed me these last days, Nier
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and Marramore. I had not assumed I would find acceptance
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: here among you. There are some who resist change, dear
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Rosil said, it will ever be so. But your new
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: weaves are impressive. More importantly, they're effective that earns you
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: a warm welcome from me nineve smiled. Now Rosil said,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: raising a finger, you might be eyes to die in
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the eyes of the Omelin in the tower, but tradition
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: and still holds no speaking for the rest of the ceremony.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I had to do it through that read because it's
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: so funny, just the whiplash.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like it's we're attempding to redeem the
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Isidye at this point in the story, right, We're tending
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: to show that they're not all bigoted, they're not all dumb,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: they can't adapt to change. The ones that are left,
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: at least are a slightly better group than the ones
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: we've gotten rid of. We don't have a bunch of
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: black odd jaw sisters to be you know, mysteriously surly,
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: we don't have just a lot of problems that were
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: in the White Tower before, right, And you know, and
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: I think also there's a little bit of Brandon Sanderson
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: just trying to be like there are good ones. You know.
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: He does it with Bavara, he's doing it now with Rosil, right,
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: and these other two yellows who are supportive of Ninive.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And I'm assuming those two names must be some fans
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: because two random names that have no particular.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm meant to look that up when I do it.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Really, I think Rozil is a character that like just
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: exists in her own right.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Rosill has been around for a while. She's been Mistress
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: of Novices. She was appointed by Agwaine as Mistress of Novices,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: and she has a couple of scenes that she's in,
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: including this one.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was mentioned before this point, Yes, or Sanderson, so.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: Nier's name for a fan of the Wheel of Time
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: named Deborah whose user name was Nier Alman.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Nice. Nice, And then let me look up Marra Moore.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: Whenever I copy stuff out of eyebooks, it always puts
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: this big long disclaimer in the copy, so then I
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: got to pack even though copying one word, it pasts
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: like two sentences into the thing, Like I'm just trying
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: to copy a name? Why is copying paste like that?
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: Do not have a similar note about Marra Moore in
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the wiki?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Let me see if I google it. Nope, nothing, Huh.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to assume that's a loss to detail
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: rather than a name that got made it for no reason.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's entirely possible that, like Sanderson, had names
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: in place, and then when he was able to give
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: people's name to just a RaSE names and replace them
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: and maybe it's not both of them, maybe just one person.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Hard to say, Yeah, it's weird. It's
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: hard to say. It's hard to say. The documentation on
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: that isn't the strongest.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I need's got the jitters. And they're
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: heading into a space that we have seen before. It's big,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: it's imposing, and Ninive has to tell us directly that
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: it is a symbol of how big and imposing, because
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: that wasn't as obvious.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Right right? Oh man, I almost I almost feel like
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: I need to read the two sentences in the two
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: books just to get a kind of a comparison of
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: the writing style differences.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Do that because it's very obvious between these two. These
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: two moments are like a perfect laboratory to show the difference.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: So here's Sanderson's. Eventually, they arrived at a pair of
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: doors so large that Rosael had to use the one
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: power to open them in indication I need thought, folding
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: her arms, the vaunted hallways, the enormous door. This is
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: here to show accept the importance of what they are
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: about to do the enormous skate like doors swung open,
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: and I need forced herself to master her jitters. The
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: last battle was looming. She would pass this test. Here's
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Jordan on the very lowest level. Marine stopped before paired
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: doors larger than any they had passed, as tall and
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: wide as fortress gates, but polished to glistening and lacking
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: iron straps. The Isidi channeled and flows of air swung
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: the doors open silently on well oiled hinges. Taking a
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: deep breath, Moraine followed her into a large round dome chamber.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: So different, so different.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: One of them feels elegant and streamlined, and it was
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: not the first one.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: It really Yeah, there's a certain amount of just like
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: here's the door is so large, Rosa had to use
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: the one power to open them versus huge doors lacking straps,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: isidi channeled. Right, those are all three of those are
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: statements of fact. This one says because of this, therefore
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: that right, And I feel like that's the real like
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: in one little statement, that's the difference between the two authors.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Sanderson will often say this happens because of that. Jordan
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: will give you both of those facts and trust you
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: to make the connection that one of those happens because
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: of the other one, and that also lets him give
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: you those facts in widely different places in the story,
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: and then you get the the enjoyment of discovering that
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: they're linked if you're paying attention. Yeah, Sanderson will always say, oh, yeah,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: I'm bringing this up because remember back in chapter three
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: when I said this other thing, that's.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Why, right, And it feels so out of character for
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Ninive to be like, Wow, they're really using the architecture
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: to like impress upon the accepted the importance of what
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: they're gonna do. Like that's not the kind of like
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: psychoanalytics that Ninive ever engages in. She's like, these people
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: are dumb and I want to hit them, Like that's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: how Naive approaches things. Like maybe it's because she's so nervous.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: She's like looking at weird, strange details and thinking about
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: them in weird ways. But it just feel so like
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Nineve would never psychoanalyze the size of the doors. That's
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: just not what she does.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: And then okay, I have to keep doing comparisons. Right.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Head rised high. She entered the chamber. It was domed
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: with stand lamps around the perimeter. A large chair on
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Grioll dominated the center. It was an oval, narrowed at
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: the top and bottom that sat unsupported. Many Tearranngrioll looked ordinary.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: That was not the case here. This oval was obviously
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: something worked by the One Power. It was made of metal,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: but the light changed colors as it reflected off the
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: silvery sides, making the thing seemed to glow and shift.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: Going back to Jordan, blinking, her eyes went immediately to
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: the object center beneath the nome, a great oval ring,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: narrow at top and bottom, its rounded rim little thicker
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: than her arm, well above a span in height and
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: perhaps a pace across at its widest. It glittered in
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: the lamplight, now silver, now gold, or green or blue,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: with swirls of all, never the same. For more than
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: a moment, and a seemingly impossibility, it stood unsupported. That
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: was a Tarran Greal, a device made to use the
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: One Power in the long ago age of legends. Within it,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: she would be tested, She would not fail.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: More similar, but I still see the same thing. Where
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Jordan is making statements than Sanderson is making conclusions like
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Jordan's just saying stuff and letting you connect it, whereas
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Sanderson is really leading you. It's less obvious in that
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: those two passages than the other pair we looked at,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: but it's still there.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: And for this one, I would say it's more that
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: the huge Sanderson gives us a very simplistic description of
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: an oval made of metal with changing colors. Jordan gave
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: us a full paragraph about the way the colors shifted
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: and the beauty and the silvery sides, and how high
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: it was and how wide it was and the thickness.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: And this is just again, just the beauty in the
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: description of that versus Yeah, it's a fucking oval, right,
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: It's an oval that changes colors, you know, And I
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: just justs a joy in the description of a beautiful object.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Journey over Destination.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, come on, Sanderson, you wrote that.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I know, I know. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: It's just it's a very interesting way to compare. We
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: don't often get to do a one to one comparison
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: in the scenes from Sanderson to Jordan. Right. Oftentimes we're
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: kind of saying, like, well, this is parents, it's probably Sanderson,
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: and like this feels more like Jordan. But here we
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: can really compare, Like the different way they attack. They
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: described the exact same scene, the exact same room, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: essentially the same thing happening at the same time.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: And you know that Jordan was gonna write this. This
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: is not a scene that Sanderson like decided would be cool.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Like everyone knew that Ninevea was gonna get and accept
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: was going to get her eyes to dietest. It was
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: probably going to be seen on page. Like, Jordan definitely
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: had some sketched out ideas of how this was going
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: to go from you years and years ago, right, Like
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: this was pretty much a foregone conclusion, unlike all the
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: parent stuff where it's like, eh, figure it out.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: I would agree with you that he probably knew he
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: was going to do this. I bet there was no
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: notes on.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: It, sure, but like you know, Land's going to be
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: a big part of it. You know it's going to
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: be one of the hardest tests ever administered. Right, there's
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: certain aspects of it that like Jordan's set us up
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to know the conditions.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, but no, you're.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Right he probably didn't actually write any of it because
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, I'll get there when I get there,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I don't need to write notes. I know what's going
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: to happen, like obviously.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: So Ninie's thinking to herself that Agwayne's going to be
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: among the most harsh, and she's correct.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's got all sitters, which would already make it harsh,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: But then she's also got the Omerlin who's going to
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: be extra harsh, because I mean, this is this is
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: the Iel Omerlin in so many ways, you know, like,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: this is going to be harsh. She's going to hold
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: her to an ieal level of standard.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: This in a way, though, takes me back to Agwayne
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: bringing up the trolocks in the World of Dreams on Ninive. Oh,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: which I hate to reference that because that's an awful scene,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: but like that, Agwayne didn't have to be there. Yeah,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: she could have stayed away. And if she'd stayed away,
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: she wouldn't have had to be extra harsh on Ninive
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: and Niive wouldn't have had the two revers thing, she
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have had the land thing. And Agwaine's like, well,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: I I wanted to be there to stop it. Well
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: you should have fucking stopped at them. Yeah, there is
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: a level of abuse to Agwayne being here That brings
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: me back to that moment that just it pisses me off.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: It pisses me off a little bit that she's here,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: in this moment administering the worst, most personal shit against
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Ninive under the excuse that, well, it's expected of me
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: to be the harshest if I'm going to be here,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: which I don't have to be here.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to prove that I was right to raise you,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: you need to suffer this abuse to prove to the
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: others that I was right. Yeah, being thrown back in
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the ring with your abuser being so unapologetic like that
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: is a little rude. And then yeah, like when at
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: the end and Sarah says that was downright vengeful, and
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: you look at the other you know, like the red
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: sitter obviously is the vengeful one, and you know Robanda
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: is clearly so mean because she's a yellow sitter. Like,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: is anyone going to dare to look at a Gwain
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: and be like, were you working some shit out there?
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, were you?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Were you trying to like get something back at your
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: old mentor Like no one's ever going to look at
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: a Gwin and think that except us apparently? What Yeah, Uh,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that's a really interesting thing to really drill into though,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: That she didn't have to be there. She's like, oh,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: look what you made me do? Like, no, you you
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: made you do that?
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it very much feels like that. It's like you look,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: look how badly you make me hurt you?
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Oh Gwyn, why do you have to be
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: morally gray? So love it.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: Because she's thinking about her own power. She's not necessarily
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: thinking about Ninive as a friend and and and there's
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: there's a certain level of Ninive as a mother figure
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: is expected to take the abuse and just roll with it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean she does five years later she's like,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: thank you, mother, May I have another?
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Totally? And there is a certain you know, I think
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: about Ninive as very much the mother of the Emmonsfield five. Right,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: She's the one who's there to take care of them
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: a little more mature. Yes, again, does sort of come up,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: but as any daughter would come up and mature and
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: have to be on equal footing with their mother as adults. Right.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: But Ninive as this mother figure her children in quotes,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: don't consider the burden they're putting on her. The way
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Rand uses her to cleanse the source, and the way
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: she nearly dies doing that. Right, the way you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of just like, yeah, Ni neive
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: takes it and she is strong enough to take it.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. She rolls out of this being like that was
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: good for me, Like, I don't.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Know, apparently, fuck yeah, it just helped me realize how
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: fucking tough I actually am and what I care about,
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: which is.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Lamba yeah, which I'm just like, it's she's tough. She's
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: tough as nails, tough as titanium nails. So she goes
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: through the little intro ceremony thing, also tweaking it right
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: the ring. First it was the ring, she's got the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: ring on the right hand, and now she says she
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: wants to show that she is worthy, not to learn
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: if she is worthy, but to show that she is worthy.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: This is again she's being very literal in how she's
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: interpreting this in such a way that she's loopulling her
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: way into not accepting all the bullshit of the eyes
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: to die while also taking their approval, which is kind
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of fun. I kind of like that wordplay from her,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: though I also, you know, am like, you're being very
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: autistically literal, and I need you just stop seeking their
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: approval and live your best life because.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Let's see reading again. For what reason have you been
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: summoned here to be tried? That's the same, for what
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: reason should you be tried? Naieve says to show that
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I am worthy? And then Morien says, so that I
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: may learn whether I am worthy?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And again this is just the most autistic line ever.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: She didn't say it to be arrogant. Once again, she
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: simply stated the truth as she saw itead raised her.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: She wore the shawl. Why pretend that she didn't? And
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: like Ninive comes at the autistic kids table.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Just read the ceremonies. It's written on the page. No
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: one's gonna like it's fine.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's okay, it's fine.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: The other thing I really want to talk about was
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: the pointed star, the two overlapping triangles right on the
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: chapter icon. It's very much the split point star. There's
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: not the lines that form the two triangles, right. So
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: I do think that like the icon may be a
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: little deceptive, right because it doesn't really agree with the
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: description in the chapter.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It's a six pointed star, but it's not two overlapping
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: triangles right right right though, I am as as now
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I've got the quilting bug in my brain, I'm looking
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: at it, going can I quilt that? How can I? Yeah,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: you can definitely kill it that I should do a
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: quilt of all the chapter are icons.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Ooh, yes, that would be amazing. Oh no, what have
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: we done? Which and in our world is very much
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: what the star of David, right, the two overlapping triangles.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Form that two overlapping triangles is the most quintessential Jewish
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: symbol of all time.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, right, So on one level, I don't know if
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: that's relevant at this point. I can't believe he did
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: not think about that when he was writing this as
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: that symbol.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Jordan repeatedly describes it as two overlapping triangles, which is
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: not what this symbol is. This is a six pointed star.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Those are different ways of describing very similar outlines, but
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: the inner part is very different. And yes, I've always
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: thought it was a little strange that he had those
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: two slightly incongruous descriptions overlapping but what evs.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: So, what I was thinking about is a couple of things,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: portal stones and snaks and foxes, and specifically the symbols
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: that we see surrounding the portal stones and the snakes
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: of foxes. For example, Rand's symbol for our world is
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: a upside down triangle with an arrow through it. I
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: can't remember it's broken or not. They go through all
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: four options. I can't remember which one is the right one.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: But triangles are a big part of the base symbology there.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and with snakes and foxes, you have a triangle
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: with a snake running through it. Right, But again, it
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: feels like these are like, Oh, if we're going our
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: world seems to be this triangle with the arrow through it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: What if we're going to a close world and that's
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: two triangles, so it's related to ours through the triangle
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: and then you have an upside down triangle. Is this
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: other symbol on top.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Of that it's the upside down?
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the upside down version of it. Right.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, I like that. I like that our world is
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: a triangle and these other worlds are in inverse, so
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you kind of have two triangles positioned in an esthetically
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: pleasing way to symbolize that. I like that.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: And in some way that's referencing the world of dreams
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: that they're going into, right, like, because this is related
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: to the world of dreams. Because again, Sanderson says that
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: straight out, even though we speculated about it.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Well, and even if he didn't say it straight out,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the way he describes a lot of what she does
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: with her mind is like he didn't have to say
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: it straight out because he wrote it. He wrote it
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: subtly and overtly that that's what was happening, which.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Is Sanderson signature.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and then you know, doing the upside, it's
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: such a fun symbol, like a six pointed star. The
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: two overlapping triangles is fun. And if you get if
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: you do triangles overlapping the other way to make the
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: good dimensional thing, then you're flirting with a whole other symbol,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: and you don't want to flirt with that symbol. That's
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: not a good symbol. There's some neo Nazi row things
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: where they triangles stacked together can can go some bad places.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Gotcha in that lexicon?
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've seen it where if you slide one
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: of the triangles up so the points are together, then
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: it's an hourglass. And if you slide one of the
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: triangles down so that the bases are touching, then you
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: have a diamond, right, And so as I have inevitably
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: referenced many times. Sluggy online comic uses some triangle symbology
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: with its god because one of them is the time god,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: and so he's got the two triangles pointed. And then
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: there's also they go back in time, and there's actually
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: two pyramids, ones floating upside down in the sky above
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: the other one, and that's the pyramid of the gods,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: and the one on bottom is the pyramid of man.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: And you can transfer at the point from one to
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: the other. But that whole thing makes, of course an
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: hourglass symbol. Sure sure, right, so which represents time and
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: gods and all that kind of stuff. So you know,
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: I think I just really I don't know why the
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: symology here, really really sort of wanted to get deep
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: into it. It's one sentence. It doesn't really matter that much.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Triangles are cool, Okay. Everyone knows that food tastes better
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: when it's in a triangular form. And triangles are like
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: the strongest structure in terms of just do you want
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: to make something strong?
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Triangles involved and hexagons are the bestigons, but they're made.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Up of triangles, right absolutely.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: And triangles are stable. We live in a three dimensional world,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: so we need three lines, Like, there's just there's so
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: many reasons why you know, triangles are significant, Yeah.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: And it's a very base ingredient to quilting. He's starting
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: with triangles and then going upward from there and assembling
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: triangles on triangles on triangles is a huge way to do.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Quilting geometry in general, right, I mean Pythagorean theorem, Right,
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I mean almost our entire knowledge of the triangulation of
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: distance to stars in the sky, Like everything we do
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: is based on triangles. Like it's such a fundamental part
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: of everything else we do in math, our.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Entire like sensory system, right, like the concept of parallax,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the concept of having two different sensory inputs for ears
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: or eyes, and like, right, knowing all of that triangles, triangles,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: it's so true.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: So then we get this weave of spirit that she
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: gets touched with before she goes in, And it's not
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: explicitly stated, but I assume it's why she's able. So
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: here's the question. Does the weave of spirit let her
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: remember the things she's able to remember, otherwise she would
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: have no memories, or does it get rid of her
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: memories that she would normally have?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Right, Because the weave affects her memory, but in what way?
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I think it must be both. I think it must
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: be a suppression of some sets of memories and a
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: hyper focus on others. It's got to be a pushing
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: and pulling at the same time.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: It almost feels a little bit like compulsion.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: It is definitely a subunit of the overall compulsion weave. Absolutely.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Oh that's gross. Oh that's gross. That's gross. Hey, I said, ie,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: you know what, y'all are perverts.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Ugh. My generous way of interpreting it is that going
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: into this turan grail wipes your memories, and with experimentation,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: they've able to restore a few key Someone figured out
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: a weave where we can't give you all your memories back,
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: but we can give you a couple of things to
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: remember while you're in there. And so that's why she's
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: able to remember how many weaves she's done. And the
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: thing about the stars, right, because it's all the stuff
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: that's basically said between the beginning of the weave and
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: the ending of the weave is like, we're going to
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: lock those into your memory, so that even though you
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: forget everything else about what's going on, at least remember
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: these couple.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Of commands, remember what must be remembered, not what you
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: want to remember, not what you think would be handy,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: but what must be remembered. Hm.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: And so I feel like that's a little more generous
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: way of being, like, Okay, they're just giving you these things.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: They start the weave, then they talk about going to
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: the stars. Only when you reach it, may you embrace
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: the source. Weaving must begin immediately. You know that she
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: gets basically all the rules between the beginning of the
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: channeling of that and the ending.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like Varrein's version of compulsion right where
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: she sets it up and then she triggers the weave
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: a little bit, gives the instructions, and then finishes it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: It's almost like she used that as maybe the basis
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: because you know, maybe that helped her a little bit.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Right, possibly, possibly. Now that's really interesting because it makes sense,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: right that compulsion is made of a lot of other
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: skills that have to get compiled together little modules, and
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: like you can use those modules in on their own
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: in isolation to treat other ailments or conditions. And yeah,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: we get in the uh accept a test, we get
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: discussions about sending women in with protection, and then they
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: got screwed up and they sent women in without protection
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: and they were much better off. So yeah, somehow they
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: figured out how to throw a couple of instructions in
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: there for what must be remembered. But fascinating, I wonder
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: how many people's like childhoods, they completely wiped out before
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: they figured out, you know, how to module that.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: How many people came back like not remembering.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, They're like, I'm your wife. Uh, I've never
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: met you in my life. So now we get to
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: the mistake.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, So after this point, and I was reading and
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: I was like going, you know, cause I'm reading New Spring,
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: and I'm reading the book and I've got the digital copy,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: and so I'm reading it and she's about to enter,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and Rosel took the clothing. The other sisters were completely
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: absorbed in their work. The Taran griol began glowing a
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: pure white in the center and then started to revolve slowly,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: grinding against the stone. In my mind immediately went, it's floating.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Why would it grind against the stone? That doesn't make
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: any sense. Plus, like, wouldn't the stone wear away? That
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: just seems like a weird not accurate. So then I
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: go back and look at New Spring again, much more beautiful,
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: descriptions of the whole thing, much more elaborate. I'll read
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: that the air in the opening of the ring suddenly
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: turned to a sheet of white. It seems somehow whiter
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: than the wool of her skirts, whiter than the snow
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: or the finest paper. Yet rather than reflect on the
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: stand lamps, it seemed to absorb some of their light,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: making the chamber grow dim. And then the tall oval
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: ring began to revolve slowly on its base without the
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: slightest sound of stone grading against whatever it was made of,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: and the grinding against the stone, and without the sound
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: of grinding against the stone. Like It's literally the same sentence,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: just with the word without in it. And I think
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: when Sanderson had his notes open, he literally just missed
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: the word without.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I mean I have missed words in that way many times.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I can totally imagine how it happened. And the funny
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: thing is.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: I was like all excited that I found this error and.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Wait, wait, look at this, look at this. It says
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: it started to revolve slowly, moving silently against the stone.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Because I have a later edition printing of the book.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: And so they did fix it and fix it.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Someone fixed it and get someone somewhere along the way
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: was like, this is a literal error. This is like
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: land sharpening a power route sword. This needs to be fixed,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: and so it was.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: You can see the quotes are directly wrong between the
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: two books. But I'm very proud of myself for spotting
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: that one without having the correction.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, that's absolutely some deep nerd credit. And obviously
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: the audio books would have the original because they don't.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: They don't re entit that stuff, So that one's going
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: to be if you listen to the audiobooks, you will
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: hear the wrong version. But it's okay, now.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: You know. So she goes in, and you know, you
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: got the structure of the testing that again, we saw
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: almost the same structure in New Spring, which is she
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: goes in, she's attacked, she walks calmly over to the star,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: and she uses the wall of air to stop whatever's
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: attacking her. Right, pretty basic. First one sets up the stakes,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: how it works, what you're doing.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: It's the tutorial.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: It's the tutorial, Eveliss. We'll talk about that more later,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: not on this podcast. And then this whole like she
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: enters into the next thing, her memory gets wiped again,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: you know, and all she remembers is that she's completed
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: the first hundred. She has to walk to the star
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: and be calm. She can't channel till she gets there. Basically,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: she remembers nothing but the rules and how many times
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: she's done this.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: And there's a reset to nudity at the beginning.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: It's whatever they want to clothe you in, right. Sometimes
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: it's nudity. Sometimes it's the clothing that makes you look ridiculous.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Sometimes they don't bother and just put you in whatever
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: is appropriate. Right, it's whoever's running that weave.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're just whatever you were in the last one, right.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, we start out with pretty mild trying
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: to help generalized people things and being attacked by monsters.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Though I do think it's interesting in the second vision
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: how the monsters don't look quite right. I'm guessing that's
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: because whoever's generating the trollics has never actually seen the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: trollic in person.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: It's like the paintings where they look at the paintings
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: and they go, well, you know, the trollcs are the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: weapons do or don't look right. I feel like that's
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: this here is that I need is being attacked by
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: trollocs and she knows better than the test maker what
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: trollcs look like.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: That or just someone trying to make the trallks look scarier,
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: thicker for eyes hidden right, like trying to make that's
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: the only thing. Yeah, I agree with your thesis more.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they look wrong to her, not souped up, but wrong.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: It's like those medieval paintings where you can tell that
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: the author said, yes, I've seen horses. I've totally seen
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: horses before. Absolutely I know what a horse looks like.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Don't believe you.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: So she's yeah, doing the thing that I think Morain
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: figures out by the end of the test. But Ninive
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: starts out there with weaponizing the weaves, like immediately right
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: off the bat, just like I can make these weaves
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: big and bad. And I feel like Morain does get
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: there in the end with her test, but it's not
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: out of the gate.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Moreene's testing is also not quite as brutal, Like it's
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: a little brutal because she's got a lighta there who's
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: being a total dick, But it's really more just the
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: last one, Like her hundredth one is really pretty mean,
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: but that's just right on out of the hundred, whereas
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: ninives are like.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: It's a lot more puzzles and emotional abuse for Morain.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and she gets stung and she gets scraped and
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: she gets cut, like she's not totally immune from the dangers.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: But it does seem to be that the ongoing cruelty,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: especially with ninive where they start like every single time
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: miss children, she has to abandon children in danger, right, Like,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: they see what hurts her and lean on it hard
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: and it gets worse and worse and worse as the
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: testing goes on. That doesn't seem to be the case
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: with Maraine. Moraine seems to face a couple of bad ones,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: but it doesn't seem to be this escalating. Well, you're
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: breaking the rules, so we're gonna get harder harsher on you,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: which is gonna force you to break the rules more,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: which is gonna make them hard. Like there was this
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: feedback loop in ninety eighths testing where the you know,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: the more she was able to overcome by quote unquote
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: breaking the rules, the meaner they got with to her.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: And that right whereas, yeah, Elida was one woman on
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: a personal vendetta which involved a lot of like psychological
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: torture rather than just physically beating her the whole test.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, Yeah, that makes sense.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: So there's the forty seventh we we get after the
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: first two.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we pov switch or we time jump, because obviously
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: we're not gonna do one hundred of these things. So
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: we hop to roughly the middle at number forty seven,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: and we start with her already so crazed that she's
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: just hurling herself off of cliffs without even flinching because
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: she can see that the gateway is like below. Muh huh, right,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Like she's already like clearly she has been pushed to
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: do some wild stuff and is very much in a
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: the rules of tel I Run Riot apply, right, She's
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: just trusting the process and not being like this is impossible.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: She's like, Okay, no, this is clearly possible, because whatever,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: it's fine. That's where we open this POV part and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: she's starting to get the impression that someone wants her
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: to fail. This is where the tell I Run Riod
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: training is starting to show, because she's starting to gather
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: a larger impression of her circumstances, which is that she's
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: in a contest of wills with someone. Well, she's undergoing
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: this ordeal.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And seems to be remembering it a little bit better. Right,
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: It's she's not getting wiped as every time she seems
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: to be like, yeah, she's getting a sense of all
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: these things going on as she's being white there. It's
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: like she's not being fully wiped every time. She's hanging
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: on to a little bit of knowledge.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Right, the void in her mind is starting to build
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: a picture by its articulation. So, yeah, she hears a
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: child screaming, she gets attacked by bugs. It's gross, but
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: still not the worst of what she's gonna get put through.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: She's really starting to question being calm. This is also
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the other important thing is she's really starting to question
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: the calmness and again very autistically like, but why why
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: this is dumb?
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: And I think this is one of those where she says, oh,
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: we notice that children really hurt you. I think this
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: is the one where they notice that the children really
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: do make her like distressed.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: This, yes, now we get to number forty eight, and
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: forty eight is the one where children in active crying
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: distress begging for her help specifically become a feature rather
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: than oh, the sound of children in danger. No, now
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: it is four children who are begging for their lives
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: that she has to walk away from, and that will
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: now be the rest of her test. Every single test,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: it seems, it is implied, involves some very on this
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: level of piteous child begging for their life, and she
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: just has to go through it over and over again.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: It's awful. It kind of reminds me of the scene
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: in her accepted Test when she's in the two Rivers
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and that evil wisdom has taken over and Maren is
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: like begging for help with the fact that there's this
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: evil woman who has taken over, like this mistress of
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: the orphanage, right, has left and not come back. There's
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: this tyrannical mother figure gone wrong that has abandoned the
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: mission and Ninive you know, has to walk away from that.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: And is poisoning actively poisoning children, yeah, right.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Right, and then Ninive has to walk away from that.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: It's so I like the fact that it's that deep
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of a callback to her accepted test, even though none
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: of these women were probably involved in that. This is
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: entirely Arthurial bleed through. But I'm fine with.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: It, well, I am unway. I'd like to see her
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: prove herself in another way other than just oh yeah,
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: we still need to make sure you can be and
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: the children for the cause, right, Like it's like, okay, okay.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Well, it's just such a part of her subconscious fears
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and it was part of her trauma with the eyes
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: to die that like, if her mind is contributing to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: the algorithm, this makes a lot of sense as a callback.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: But yes, it having it be overdone felt needlessly cruel
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: to us as the readers as well.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: So then we get to the eighty seventh one.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we do a quick montage of all the horrible
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: things and then slow down again at I wrote eighty
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: one on mind. Yeah, eighty first weave okay, yere right,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: and now we're in the Two Rivers. The eighty first
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: trial is the two Rivers, which is very well detailed
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: because Agwayne is the one feeding the details.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: In, right, and so she knows this is one that
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: really hurts, and it's the one that first breaks her calm. Right.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: This is the point where she first runs to the
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: star instead of walking calmly to it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: It has been almost twenty weaves since she started to question,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: since she started to get angry, since we started to
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: put together, because it was forty seven to eighty one, right.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's almost forty thirty five.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so it's been almost forty weaves that she's
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: been like, I know something's wrong. I know I'm in
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: a contest of wills. I know these rules are dumb.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: And now, after like, yeah, almost half of the duration
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: of the test of thinking about that, now her home
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: in full detail is in danger, and she's like, fuck it,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to run. I'm going to disobey the rules
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: that make no sense because these people's lives matter more.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: And so she embraces the source. She runs, and while
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: she's running, she embraces the source. She embraced the source,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: and something seemed to try and stop her, something like
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: a shield. She pushed it aside with difficulty, and power
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: flooded her. I'm like, I'm not sure if that's Teller
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: on riodd, because i know that's sort of what Agwayne
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: says it is. It might just be her overwhelming strength
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: pushing aside a shield, right, because you know, if you're
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: strong enough, you can break a shield.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Where do you think this shield is coming from? Is
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: that like a deliberate creation of an isidie or is
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: it just like a built in safety feature of the ternal.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: I think it has to do I wanted to be
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: the person who's who's making the event, right, that has
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: related to their strength. But I don't think they're actively
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: making the shield. I think the shield is a result
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: of telleranriod. It's just a weave type situation at best.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: It has to do with the memory weave that's put
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: into her. Right, there's nothing physically stopping her. It's just
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: like you know, you're not supposed to There's there's a
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: physical there's a there's a mental block against channeling before
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: you get to the star because of that that weave,
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: and that weave, like we said, may have some aspects
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: of compulsion and may have some aspects of like actually
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: having a shield on her, like this conditional shield, right,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Like maybe there is something with that in that weave.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I just couldn't see a human on the
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: other side responding that quickly to her choice to channel.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: It felt like it had to be something that like, Yeah,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: the world or the turn Greol was was manifesting. But yeah,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: clearly it's overridden either by her skill until I run
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: or by her overwhelming power. Either way, it's inadequate to
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: the task of keeping her from channeling. And as we
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: see later with the bail fire, maybe part of the
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: reason for that is that, Yeah, the way that it
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: can facilitate or the way that it can provide the
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: stimuli of channeling is strained by bailfire. Bailfire is hard
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: to simulate. Bailfire is bail fire, right.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Right, and it's destroying things. Yeah, yeah, that's the always
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: the question is would bail fire it seems to be
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: destroying things that are not necessarily it's doing more damage
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: than it should. Right. It punches into the ground, right, exactly,
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: it and so the ground is simulated and the bailfire
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: is destroying the simulation of the ground rather than destroying
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: the ground.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like if you're in a star Trek holodeck
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: and you somehow manage to damage the holow deck itself
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: instead of damaging like whatever the holoduck is making you
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: think you're seeing, like if you actually are, like, oh
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that's a wall. I broke the wall. Now now now.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: The projection's not working.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like that, Like, normally you're fine,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: but sometimes you get a weapon that's too big and
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: powerful and then the pull of deck shuts down and
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: everyone's confused.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: I very much enjoy the vastly increasing the strength of
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: the very simple weaved great giant rings of fire to
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: burn the trucks with. Like that's that's again directly from
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: the New Spring version of it, where Raine is using
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: the weaves to protect herself and use them against the
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: enemies and stuff like that.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also so ninive just make it bigger and
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: hit people with it, and she still thinks this is
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: more important than the two rivers, right, she still abandons
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: people because she's still committed to the test. But like, yeah,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: the controls are slipping hard now, and so she passes
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: from the eighty first, we do another time jump over
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the remaining twenty and we get to the hundred. Yeah,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: remaining thirty, and we get to the hundredth she is
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: now braidless, absolutely exhausted, burned, scratched and broken in every way.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Basically, Can I just say, like, I'm really disappointed we
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: didn't get to see her braid.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, distracted it's such an.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Integral part, Like when I go back, like I didn't
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: even realize that she lost her braid until much later
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: when she talked about how she reached up to grab
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: it and it was too short, and I was like, wait,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: when did you lose that? And it's like, oh, during
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: the thing, I had to go back and reread multiple
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: times to be like when did when did a braid
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: come off? I cannot leave. It's like killing a main
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: character off screen. Nine's braid is such a main character
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: that burning it off on one of these missions off
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: screen feels just absolutely cowardly to me.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Like it was annoying when Matt killed kol it
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: An off screen, but whatever, he was a like half
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: rate villain anyhow, Like it's fine. Nieves's braid is like
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: the sixth member of the band. Okay, how dare you?
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: How dare you? It makes me mad too, that hair
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: deserves more respect makes me so mad, totally totally. I mean,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: we got to see Carrie Ona's hair getting boiled off
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: in that Nightmare or whatever, you know. I mean she
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: cut it after because it was all damaged, but like
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: we literally saw that with a random eyes to die
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: dingbat but we can't see it. Friend, I neve like
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: that braid deserves better. It's fine to have her lose
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: it as like this massive, horrific, oh my god, no
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: one is safe kind of moment. I'm fine with the desecration,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: but to have it be off page is disrespectful.
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: Somehow the braid was removed.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Maybe he just like couldn't write it without it
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: feeling like weirdly fetishistic and was just like, you know
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: what we're not. I can't, I don't know.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: But you know, just something where she's like she's on
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: the star, something's attacking her. She has to use the
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: weave to fight back, but they're clinging on her braid,
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: and it's like, oh, she has to create like a
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: bubble around herself or something to protect herself, and that
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: in her braid's outside the bubble and so it gets
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: cut off.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah totally. You know, in order to get free, she
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: has to use the weave to like slice her own
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: hair off, Like yeah, totally. That would have been great.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: And having that be like, oh, yeah, someone knows that
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: she values her hair right and creates a situation where
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: her hair has to come off. That would have been
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: an interesting test, can you abandon your hair?
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: I think it's really cool that you're so upset about this,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: given how much head hair you have. I think it's
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: it's really it's really cool that you're so You're so
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: going home for protecting and I needs luscious luck.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Listen, I have been growing this hair out for like
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: five or six hours at this point, and it is like,
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: I value what I have. I wouldn't want it to
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: get cut off until you know, tomorrow when I shave
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: it again. I am bald as a cuball folks right now, okase, well,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: for a while now, before I met my wife, actually
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: she would not know what I looked like. She sees
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: old photos of me with hair. She's like, ah, I'm
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: glad you shaved.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Good move.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's uh. I cannot recommend it highly enough
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: if you're thinning. It's been much better for me. Also
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: saves me much money on haircuts.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I just have Brandon do my hair right so right.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: That saves me money. I have a very simple haircut though.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: It's either you leave it alone or you make it
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: all as short as possible, like every six weeks. It's
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: two settings. Anyway, n names braid rip so she gets
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: offered the opportunity to go naked or dresses and accepted.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: She chooses nudity because she will not be an accepted
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: no matter what. This is very symbolic. And then they
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: give her a yellow dress and she will put that on.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: She will take the time to put a yellow dress on.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: Well, and you're saying they, yes, this is a Gwain again.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm confused about how much it's a collaborative process
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: versus like a one baton pass kind of thing.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: It really feels like it's a one baton pass that
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: one person like, because she did say I was the
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: two rivers, I was land, I was those visions right.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: It seems like they take turns and then every time.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: I also think that if who's collaborative, it would be
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: less evil, right, because everyone test by committee would be
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: more bland.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Sure, So that means that like every seventh test would
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: have been a little bit less fucked up because Saren
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: was so mad at all the rest of them by
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the end, I mean, she was probably giving like relatively
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: less bad.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Ones hopefully hopefully. Yeah.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Other way, she's just as guilty of the thing that
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: she's angry about. So okay, So I've always kind of
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: imagined it as like a jam session, where like one
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: person's leading, but everyone else is still playing. It's not
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: like a solo a cappella thing.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe, but but I see that as too difficult
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: to coordinate fast enough that like basically there's it's like
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: when you have a circle, there's one person leading it
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: and that gets passed around.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes more sense. I wanted to be like
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: a jam circle though that strawberry cooler. But you're right,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: But no, I think you're right. It would be blander
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: to have it be a collaborative process. It would be
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: very on brand for the is to dyes weird isolationist, petty,
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: vindictive attitude over the last three thousand years to have
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: it be like, okay, now it's your turn, deterch of
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: the girl in the middle, Okay, now it's your turn.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Now it's your turn, and everyone else is supplying power
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: but is otherwise helpless to influence each thing until it's
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: their turn.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: That's my head canon.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that fits with the Isidyese personality as an institution
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: way better. I like it less, but that fits the canon.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: And that means that Agwayne here and again, this is
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: where I think she's trying to prove herself as the
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: ambulance seat is like, you're an excess, you know, let
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: me put you in accept address for this final thing.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: But then when I need refuses to put that on,
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: she Agwaine says, Okay, then I'll give you an actual dress.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: So I think the other I said, I would not
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: have given her a yellow dress to put on if
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: she'd refused the accepted dress.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Also, that means probably that she did allow the Land
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: simulation to help ninive because I noticed at the very
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: end that Land actually helps her up, Like after she
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: commits to like I would rather die like Igwayne through
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: Land is like, okay, fine, don't die. Come on, I
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: need you to not die. I'll have the simulation to
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: help you get through the door because I need you
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: to not die.
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: Right, And so the simulation is Land comes running out,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: chased by dark hounds.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: They're in Malkyr. She's seeing the ruins of Malkir. It's
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: easy for her to get to and from the Star,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: but then she sees Land in an impossible situation, fighting
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: too many dark hounds to possibly fight, and it would
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: be easy for her to get away from the test
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: except for the part where it's land because husband's stuff.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: And then here's a really important section, right, I think
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: this is super important. She blinked and looked down at
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: her hands. In the direct center of each palm was
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: a tiny scar, almost unnoticeable. Seeing them sparked a memory
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: in her. Yeah, I love you. This was a test.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: She could remember that now, So this is the moment
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: she looks down her hands. Those are from the BlackBerry
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: bush that stabbed her during her accepted test.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Right, the way back comes but once unless you're Nive.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: Unless you're Niaive, And so this she broke that test,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: and this is her breaking this one and having a
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: memory of that, right, this is her.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I really liked that callback because it's such an
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: important part of her accepted test, the fact that she
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: basically broke it. Then she's breaking it now. It's so perfect.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: And again I don't think Igwayne knew all of those details.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Like this is drawing out of Ninive's own experience, right,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Like her thoughts are not.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: I mean the scar's on her hands. Yeah, no, her
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: thoughts aren't being controlled, and her physical body.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Is hers right like yeah, exactly, like this is all her,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: This is her interpretation, her experience, her mind breaking through.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: And I also love too that she, despite the fact
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: that she's exhausted and Lenda is startling her, she finished
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: the weave without even really thinking about it. Yeah, right,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Like she is such a nice to die She'll finish
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: the damn weave while she's having an existential crisis.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: Well, and it's also she is so goddamn powerful and
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: so talented that what is a challenge for everybody else
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: is child's play to her, Like doing these hundred weaves
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: the room, she had to study them, remember back in
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: their demand, she was forced to study them, and like
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: she just there. It's like when you get to work
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: and you're like, wait, did I drive here? Shit, I
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: don't remember. Yeah, it's that level of like she can
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: just weave them, it's no problem.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah exactly. But now she's in this place of like,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: am I abandoning my husband? No, it's a simulation. I
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: don't care, right, she's so exhausted and burned out emotionally
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: that she's just like, no, I'm saving my fake simulation husband.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: You can't stop me, which.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Mean was a little odd because for me, it's like, oh,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: it's a simulation all right, beeasts see you like, this
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: is the level of like, once you realize the simulation,
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: shouldn't you just like walk be able to walk away
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: from it a little bit easier? But that's just me,
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Well, she's also like wavering on the edge of like
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: just passing out from exhaustion, right, She's confused and muddled
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: and just refusing to play their game. And that it
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: really reminds me of rand here the way that she's
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: just like, I will not do what the eyes that
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: I want. I will become an icy rage machine. And
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: you know, it's that two rivers culture. You don't need
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: the genetics, you just need the culture to have this
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: be how when you get really pushed into a corner
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: and then yeah, she bail fires the entire simulation and
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: starts hitting control panels in the hall of deck walls.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: And I wished the reaction to that was a little more.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: We barely held it together kind of in the way
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: that the resonance nearly destroyed the accepted test. I would
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: Likene with a gun like this. To me, it didn't
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: feel like there was that many They were like, oh,
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: that could have destabilized the Toron girl, She's like well
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: it didn't like yeah, but I think there should have
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: been more like yeah, because we barely held it to
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: get that we're all nearly dead from keeping you from
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: like at the last minute, destroying the Terrannreal and taking
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: us all out, Like we barely pulled you out of
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: that because of the bail fire. That would have hit
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: home a little more than test tisk don't do that.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely would have liked to be like, yeah,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: you see this ding on the side of the turran
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Greal that's indestructible. That was the time that we barely
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: kept bail fire from coming out when hitting the real world.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: And it would like to see the people who are
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: doing the weave just like on their knees from exhaustion,
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: like nearly dead from keeping the Tearranreal stabilized.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Well, they they're described that way, but it's just from
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: the test overall. They never say because of the bailfire.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: It's just because the test was long and hard. It's
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: that the bailfire didn't actually make a difference anyway.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: And then there's this scene where she grabs land and
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: comes running out the doorway and he's gone, and honestly,
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: you know what This reminded me of more than anything else,
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: that scene in the show The show and her accepted test, yeah,
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: with her child.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: When I saw that in the show, I was like, oh,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: like with Land and they accept in the said eye
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: test at the end. I see where they got that from,
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: and I'm not mad about it. The idea of trying
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: to bring someone through and having it fail is like, no,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: that's that's good horror. That's a yes. But yes, I
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: told you. When I saw the show, I was like,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: I know where that came from. I know it's this,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: it's this.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: It's like you sacrifice everything to save them and get
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: them to your place of safety and then that just
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: ends them as well.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was all a dream. Rip Away is brutal,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: very effective gut punch oka.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: Her entire body was a fire with pain. Her shoulder,
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: legs and arms and back still bled. She was burned
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: to blisters and swaths across her body, and the greater
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: part of her braid was gone.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: And she has to get healed immediately before anything else
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: can happen, because she is like actively going into shock
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: as they all like get up and are trying to
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: recover from the weave getting released so they heal her,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: and then they start arguing.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: Saren, Now, when someone please tell me what in the
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: name of creation itself that was. I've been part of
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: many a raising, even one where the woman didn't survive,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: But I have never, in all of my days seen
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: a woman put through what this one just suffered.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Get them, Saren, get them.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that wasn't properly, That wasn't proper. That was downright vengeful.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: Almost any one of those tests beyond what I've seen
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: demanded of any other woman.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Almost any one of them. Like again, back to Moraine
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: twenty years ago, any one of those would have been
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: her final boss battle.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: Exactly, and if you look back, that was her last one.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Was awful, but like it was one.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Right right, the boss battle was the one that she
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: barely thought she was survived, not literally every single one
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: did she survive by the skin of her teeth. It's
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: like she just did you know, video game on hard
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: mode on one save or something where everyone else got
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: to be on easy mode with endless saves.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: And then I kind of hate the next part, whether
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: they're arguing over whether or not she deserves to be
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: an ICID eye.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I will smack every last one of them.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad that Sarin ends up the deciding vote
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: because of the way that she defended her right out
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: of the gate. It's like, thank you for having it
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: be Saren who got to make that final call.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: And I underligned one should not demand calmness for the
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: mere sake of calmness, and a prohibition on running when
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: there are people you need to save is foolish.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, niceness and politeness are not
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: as important as actual justice and actual care and actual love.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Like right, that's what this is is. Again, it's just
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: very autistic literalism of like, but why why am I
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: being calm? If calm is just to soothe your fragile feelings,
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: then no, I don't care about that. Why would I care?
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: Speaking of the autistic stuff, you flattered the rules. I
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: couldn't flap them. I didn't remember it. I'd been given them.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: I could remember what I was supposed to do, but
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: not the reasons. That's why I broke the rules. I
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: thought they were just arbitrary. If I can't remember why,
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: then I'm not gonna do it. And when you keep
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: being like oh, this is like yeah, if I don't
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: understand why the rule exists, I'm not going to follow it.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the difference, right between someone who
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: is just oh, it's a rule, I follow it because
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: it's a rule, versus I follow it because it's a
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: good rule, right, And whether it's a good rule or not,
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: you need no why.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing like telling an autistic person why to
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: do a thing to get them locked in on doing
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: it that way. It's you know, and then also there's
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: the part of us. It's just like, well, it's the rule,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: so I'm gonna I'm gonna stand behind this line, even
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: though empirically there's no need to, like like I can
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: just walk up to the counter, but no, I'm going
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: to stand behind the line until i'm you know, like,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: there are arbitrary rules that we follow sometimes for no
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: goddamn reason because we're very, very good at following the rules.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this whole like I thought it was arbitrary,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: so I made a judgment call.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: Well, those rules are the rules I think you're talking about,
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: are rules that are kind of usually part of a
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: system that get people to we're like, okay, if this
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: is the system that we're all supposed to follow to
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: interact with other people will follow it, right, even though
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: it doesn't make sense. But that's because other people don't
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: make sense.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly. It's how we know to get what
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: we want. But yeah, she was in a place where
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: there was no sense of the rationale, so she did
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: what was efficient.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: And then Agwayne sort of says, oh, you've spent too
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: much time in the world of dreams, that's why you're
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: able to break it. And I don't know about that, Like,
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: I understand that that's what they're trying to imply, and
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: it is a very much world of dreams test. But
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: I think Ninie would have broken it whether or not
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: she'd spent that much time in the world of dreams.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: I think she just in the same way that she
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: broke the accepted test.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good argument, because I was gonna say, no,
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: she's used to being in other worlds where the rules
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: are bendy. But you're right, she did nothing different than
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: what she did in her accepted test, at which point
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: she'd never heard of tel I run riodd because that
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: was literally the day of arriving at the tower, right,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's good that you have until I ran
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: eryot excuse for purposes of talking with the other Ice
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: to Die. But yeah, actually it might have just been
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: that she's op end of statement. She's just op for
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: everything in all contexts.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: The stubborness, the stubbornness alone, right, like, if I don't
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: know why I have to do it, I'm not going
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: to do it, right, That's always going to be true
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: of Ninive.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like this is the contrast between Ninive
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: and the Ice to Die, right, this is what Rand
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: points out with like don't let them change you. Is
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: where she thinks, if losing my title is what would
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: be required to save someone's life, I'd do it every time.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Not saving them wouldn't be serving a higher good. It
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: would just be selfish. Like that's what the White Tower
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: has lost. The plot on is like decorum above all else,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: form above literally all else, even results, form overfunction to
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: an absurd degree. And she's just like the dragon Reborn
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: told me that y'all lost the plot, and this is
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: me keeping on the plot. The real plot is to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: be a servant of all, that's what matters. Being called
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: a servant of all is not what matters. Being a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: servant of all is what matters?
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that it's circulating circulating around the internet,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: but like the CIA's summary of how to sabotage a
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: business or how like if you're if you're working somewhere
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: and you want to make it like not function, and
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: it's doing things like following all the rules exactly, standing
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: on ceremony, calling lots of meetings, like doing all of
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: these things that are very much like you know, oh
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: I am supposed to do this, and if you you know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: malicious compliance essentially.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, malicious compliance being seen as a virtue is
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: definitely the kind of bullshit that de shaw Mayo used
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: the Black Aja to thread the White Tower through with exactly.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: For again, like we can argue about how deep all
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: the conspiracies run, but that attitude that has to be
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: partially inserted by the Black Auja and Deshamel, like it's
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: just so effective and yeah, like you said, it's it's
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: been articulated by bad people who have been paid good
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: government dollars to learn how to be bad people.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmmm hm. And so I feel like that's something
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: that I need is breaking through. Is this just sort
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: of I'm not going to be malicious I'm not going
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: to be compliant most maliciously, right, And like I feel
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: like so much of the tower is frozen because they're
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: stuck on they've been trained to be. And I see
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of corporations too, right, Like how do
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: you how these corporations suck? And it's like because you
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: have these people who create, and that's where like, yes,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: it's the black go jab, but it's also just the
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: inherent bureaucracy, the inherent weight of the institution that has
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: existed and functioned for such a long time. And then
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: he was breaking those down.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, for sure. I came across an essay
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: several years ago about how America is a corporate structure
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: and we have a corporate rule book for like how
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: we exist as a society, and just kind of went through,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: like here's how like corporates works, and then here's like
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: how the rules of like being a good little cog
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: in the capitalist machine and upholding white supremacy and all
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: of that like works. And it is like, point for
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: point the same thing. Here's the business rule book for
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: how we keep everyone in their relative positions in the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: financial hierarchy. And uh, yeah, that really fits with this
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: whole White Tower idea of just like, these rules matter
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: a lot because they keep you oppressed and in the
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: point in the chain of being that the institution needs
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: you to be at. And Ninive is like, but that's
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: ineffective for my skill set, So I'm gonna be independent.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, she literally says, I'm gonna go be with
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Rand regardless of what titles you give me. Like I
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: know my skills and my power and my worth, and
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: the the dragon Reborn knows my skills and my power
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: and my worth, Like, I don't need you to certify me.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: And it's also like and a Grain's like it'd be
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: a bad idea not to certify someone who and enlists
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: Ninnieves resume, which is like more has done more than
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: any I said I in all of history in like
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: two years.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: And she's married to the king of malk here right, right,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: names a queen. And then yeah, Ninieve actually says here
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: kind of what I was saying, because Sanderson does occasionally
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: lace it out in the page in a way I
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: agree with.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, he lays it all out.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I wonder if we sometimes put the White
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Tower as an institution before the people, we serve. I
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: wonder if we let it become a goal in itself
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: instead of a means to help us achieve greater goals.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Is this not the experience of so many people who
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: go into like some kind of change making or activism
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: direction and then they end.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: Up just you know, nonprofits everywhere.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Doing pr for people who didn't need help and not
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: actually fixing the problem that motivated them to join up
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: with the larger cause in the first place.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: I think a lot about the efforts to combat homelessness
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: here in Portland and stuff like that, because there are
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: so many institutions that are formed around the desire, to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: very good desire to help the people who are homeless
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: in Portland, and a lot of them end up functioning
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: in a way where they are perpetuating the problem and
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: making money doing it.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, profitable charity two words that should not go together.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: Well, the organization itself is never making money, but the
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: CEO is running it who are making millions and millions
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: and millions of dollars are and so it just becomes
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: a very an institution that should eliminate itself, you know, right,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: and it just has no motivation to do that, right, right,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: And so I question how effective they are. In a
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: lot of cases, it's meetings about meetings about meetings to
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: talk about where to build stuff. And by the time
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: all the planning is done and the engineering is done
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: and the politics are done, you know, you build three
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: homes and how two families, you know, and it's like, oh,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: we spent ten million dollars on what effectively feels like
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: a boonongle.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: Right, And then here's this other part in here that
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: is so related to that, Like, no homeless people are
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: ever in those meetings, right. They never actually go out
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: on the street and ask the literal homeless people what
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: they need and get it to them forthwith in two
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: business days.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: Because the answer is cash. The answer is cash.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Exactly, because they just circle jerk about it. And here's
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: you know, from nine eve. So many of us do
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: this without families. Even while we try to guide the world,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: we separate ourselves from it. We risk arrogance. We always
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: assume we know what is best, but risk making ourselves
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: unable to fathom the people we claim to serve. This
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: is a huge part of what I learned in geography.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: My geography program was that you need to talk to
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: everyone who has a stake in the situation. Stakeholders means
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: people who are affected, not just the people who are investing.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: And that was such a profound lens to bring to
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: that entire program. And that's what this is here too, Like,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: if you're not talking to the people you're trying to serve,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: you're doing it wrong.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: And for companies, you need to talk to your employees.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: You need to talk like, you can't just ignore your employees.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: And so many companies are like, well, we serve the
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: shareholders and that's all we do, and that's all we're
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: ever gonna do. Yeah, vouji. Yes, the American system does
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: seem kind of backwards because it is kind of backwards
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: because it's based on a slavery first system and we
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: got off of that direct slavery system, but we got
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: into a system where you need to prove your worth constantly, yeah,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: or else you end up homeless or in jail. And
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: if you're in jail, you can be a slave again.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we actually didn't get rid of slavery. We
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: got rid of slavery except for caveat caveat, caveat, and
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: it's like that's not getting.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: Read like and I was like, oh, well, you know,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: at least it's just like it can't be that common, right,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: And then you look at like we produce I think
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: the slavery labor in this country produces billions of dollars
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: worth of goods every year.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: There are more people in chains doing more or less
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: unpaid labor now than there were at the height of
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: chattel slavery. Like partly partially that is population growth, obviously.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: But right it's percent as the percentage of the population,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: it's much smaller, but as overall numbers in our three
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty million population country.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: It's a lot more people, more human hours of labor
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: being forcibly stolen and injected into the economy and the
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: creation of products. It's just extremely we're not done yet, America.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: We didn't finish the assignment.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: No. If you and if you think all of that
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: free prison labor doesn't affect wages, you're dreaming right, Yes, absolutely,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: because otherwise all those goods would have to we'd have
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: to pay somebody to produce those goods, and those would
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: all be jobs that we would have to pay people
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: for and the price of those goods would go up.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: And technically these people are being paid, So it's not
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: the you know, it's one of those literalism things. It's
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: not really slavery because they do get paid thirty five
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: cents a day. Okay, yeah, yeah, sure, totally different.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: Totally different. No, it's it's ridiculous. But then then they
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: get charged for things like phone calls in prison for
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: like and like ten dollars a phone call or something
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it's many podcasts worth of yelling about
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: how this is all absolute nonsense, not the soap box
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: that we have time for today. But there's a lot
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: of content out there if you want to learn about this.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: We're not making it up. We are pulling from very
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: very direct reading and podcast.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: Listening and news reporting.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: It might have been euphemizing thirty five cents a dame
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: for some things, but I think as.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: Little as a dollar an hour is a legitimate figure.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: That is like an average figure that people are being paid.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's less of a euphemism and more of actually accurate.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't think I need to approve of
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: any of it personally.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: No, and I do think that that gosh, you know,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: it's just the White Tower as an institution. She says
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: it as an institution. It's hard to just not be
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: like institutions, right, because we're putting the White Tower in
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: that category.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: It's an institution. It's three thousand years of academia and politicking.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: And then so the next thing I really have is
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: her Sarah complaining about the bailfire.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: They try to use this like carrot stick thing of like, well,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: you have to promise not to ever use this if
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: you want your treat, if you want your cookie of
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: your shawl, you're gonna have to. And then he was like, no,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: that's dumb and will get me killed. I do not
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: need your certification that much. Like and she literally says,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: if this is the line that it will take to
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: get my certification, I would rather you didn't certify me.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: I don't actually want your approval. If this is the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: line of the sand you're gonna draw. Makes them back
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: down real fast.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: This is her walking away from the job interview because
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: the salary is not good, the benefits aren't good enough. Right.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: They're like, you can weaken her.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: You're trying to bargain her down.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: She's like, you have no, no, you have to write
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: it into my contract that bailfire is something I can
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: use or I'm not joining this crew.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you don't trust me to know when to
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: use a very dangerous wave and when not to, i'd
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: rather you not raise me just throws it back in
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: their faces and then yeah, they close the ceremony. Now
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: it's over. It's done. Her relative passing grade will not
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: be discussed in public or ever, because talking about your
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: feelings is against the isida ethos m hm.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: And that's just just like they're they're hazing, right, they're
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: doing through this hazing ritual, and you don't talk about
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: the hazing because then people won't want to be a
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: part of it. Maybe hazing is bad, but that's exactly
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: what this is, right, because this is different. This is
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: different than the accepted test. The accepted test is a
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: challenge that you face with no external input. This is
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: a bunch of people choosing to abuse you in the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: moment for no reason other than to prove that you
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: can be abused and still channel.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: But it's like essentially, you know, imagine in a prat
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: recite the oath that we make you memorize while we're
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: you know, beating you naked or you know, spraying you
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: with freezing cold water out in the snow naked, right
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: and recite the thing and like you have to prove
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: your loyalty to us, you have to go through this thing.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: It's hazing, pure and simple.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: It's so similar to the ideal way too write. The
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: first test with the rings is very much about your future,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: and it's very personal, and it's very just you. It's
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: between you and the tarangriol, whereas getting your second certification
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: is about, yeah, putting up with a bunch of bullying.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: And think about where Jordan came up through, right, think
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: about the schools he went to through, Like, I cannot
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: believe there wasn't a fair amount of hazeing, both in
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: the military and at the citadel.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know much about all that, but that
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: seems like a reasonable extrapolation given the fact that this
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: pattern exists.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: Are you making assumptions there? But yes, But based on
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: the time of that he would have been going to
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: school then, because that was really before hazing was understood
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: as something as at being bad, right, and how many
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: people were actually going from it right right, like and
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: things like that, Right, I think there was a time
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: when like hazing was just like you joined the frat
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: and you got hazed, right like, that was a much
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: more normalized thing. You joined the military, you got hazed
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: right like. That was just there's a reason there's a
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: term for it called hazing, right like, It's it was
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: very common. Even many sports teams that I was a
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: part of had some level of that. It was a
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: little more ritualist, a little more embarrassment based, and a
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: little less danger based. There's there's been a switch, but
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: certainly growing up, like I remember joining the swim team
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: and having to perform in front of the team in
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: a way that I wasn't comfortable with.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Waldorf, I didn't have anything like that. We really didn't.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: And then theater kids, at least the ones I interacted
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: with like that was not part of that entire branch
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: of the social world that I interacted with. I mean,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: the closest I can think of is like being really
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: bad at improv, like in improv classes like that felt
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: like it was such a humiliating thing to like try
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: to like do improv as like a sheltered little freshman,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: and like I did very badly at it because I
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: just very autistically, like just did not quite get the
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: overarching concept of what I was trying to do, and
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: it just felt but like that was me. That was
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: not intentionally hazing, that was the class. That was just
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: like what was supposed to happen. So I don't know
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: if I've ever actually experienced myself or anyone close to
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: me like told me about that. That's I don't like
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: how common it is. I've heard about it so much broadly.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think this is good. I don't think this
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: is good for people. Stop it no.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: Jenerally, I mean why they're doing it? Right. There's a
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: certain amount of community through shared hardships. And there's two
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: ways to create hardships, right. There is a natural way
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: and there's an artificial way. And sometimes if you create
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: artificial hardships that everybody has gone through everyone in the
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: years before you, even if they only go through it
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: their first year, they have gone through it, and there's
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: a certain amount of I suffer that way as well
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: and welcome. That's what makes us different than It gives
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: you an inside on us versus them, insider versus outsider, right,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: which is super easy to create in people because we're
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: naturally prone to it. And this is one of the
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: quickest ways to do it.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, Trauma bonding as a means of team building
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: is definitely real. And I will say there was definitely
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: some joking about that in the geology department with respect
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: to certain field camps, like, oh, have you survived Polita
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: Folds yet? If you have gone to that field camp,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: you know that is an absolute night rid of mappen.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: But it's it was more of a joke. It was, Yeah,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: the natural thing.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: That's more natural because and it's also like you have
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: to go there because the work is there, and that's
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: the hard part is doing the work, and there's you're
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: not It's not like, oh, did you survive the camp?
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: That's that place where they make you sit outside for
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: extra days for no reason until your sun burned and
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: if you, you know, survive the extra punishment that has
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: nothing to do with the work that you're forced to
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: do or the bad conditions you're forced to do work in.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: I think I would just fail at a hazing ritual.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: I think I'd be like, this is dumb, this I
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: don't want to I just I don't think I would
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: do very well at this. I'm glad I was never
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: attracted to groups that wanted that because that would have
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: been a weird rejection to navigate.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: It's it's as part of masking, right you You, if
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: you're masking hard enough, you can mask through something like
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: that and act the way other people are acting despite
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: not traumatizing it.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, doctor Pants, it's definitely. I was never sad.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't want you to join a sorority because I
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: had heard weird things and I was like, you know what,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: the ten miles of distance between me and anything approaching
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: that is fine. I'm okay, And for me it was
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: the thing.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: I was on the swim team my whole life, and
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: sports teams aren't quite as bad as sororities, but the
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: sports teams I were on had a lot of aspects
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: of fraternities and sororities in them.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: I did have a babysitter high schooler who did get
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: thrown in a lake because she was the coxswain for
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: a winning row team, and that was the prize for winning,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: was getting to throw or not the cockswains the collar.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: That was the prize was the team that did the
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: row and got to throw their caller into the drink
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: if they won. It's not quite hazying, but still like
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: you will be subjected to an uncomfortable thing as part
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: of the team building exercise.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: When I was coaching summer league swimming, they if we won,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: they got to throw the coach in the pool at
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: the end of the event. But that was fine because
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: it was hot to shit out. He wanted to get
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: thoughts down and.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: There was there was also, Yeah, there was a donation
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: drive at college where like the faculty would be like, okay,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: whichever department like versus the most money, Like I'll get
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: pied in the face. Like that was a thing at
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: my little college. So there was like, you know, eight
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: faculty who were like, yes, I will be in the
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: rotation and like whoever like manages to raise enough money,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: I'll you know take the hit and uh.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: And those those feel a little more like the coaches
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: kind of agree to that. You know, there's a certain
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: level of agreement of like if you do this, I'll
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: let you do that. There's consent involved, especially with.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: A power dynamic flip. Yeah, right, like there in charge
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: and they're like fine, I'll like let you have king
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: for a day. You're like like a Saturnalia like kind
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're your student, My my my students
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: throwing me in the pool, right, that's a power and
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: balance different and then the other way right.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: But uh yeah, does this this here in the White
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: Tower seems a little more intense And yeah, I do
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: like how the the accepted test is much more about like,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: this is about your inner reasons. The Charon Grill will
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: get into your subconscious and force you to do with
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: your inner reasons.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 3: For this past present future type situation.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just how do you fit into the
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: social pecking order?
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And Ninive's answer to that is you and whose
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: army is going to make Only Land can make her
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: do anything.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: So we end this chapter with her making a gateway
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: to visit speaking of Land because there is that like
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: vision of Land at the end, to visit myrell.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, She's like, Okay, I know I got to do
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: the meditation and everything before the startremay tomorrow, but first
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: I need to go threaten morel to get Land's bond.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: She goes to the camp which is outside of the
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Black Tower. Right, It's very fortunate that this embassy has
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: not been allowed in to do their job of bonding
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Ashaman yet, because then Ninive wouldn't be able to get
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: to Morel.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: Well, maybe it's actually unfortunate because if they were in there,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: she would have had to get to Morel and she
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: would have just handled the whole Black Tower situation.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, true, that's true.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: That could have been a much quicker plot line if
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: Ninieven walked in and be like, all right, dark friend,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: I'm just shutting you down.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: That would have been good.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm out of who obviously would have been
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: a disaster, But like, yeah, I kind of imagine just
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: Ninive just being like, nope, just shutting down these twenty men,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: No big deal, I've got my because if she has
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: a parrales net, she's basically indestructive. Like I could see
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: her taking down a lot of channelers with her parrales net.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: On and there's really not that many in charge there.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: They don't have their full army of drones yet.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: But no, myrel is out camped outside because I don't
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: know if there's actually the dream spike on the Black
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: Tower yet, but she's just outside it. If it is.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is still them waiting on permission to go
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: in from the asham On. And yeah, Morel is in
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: her tent, clearly having a fun time with one of
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: her orders. Right, she's wearing very little, he's wearing less,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: and Niniva is interrupt I miss that very awkward.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: Morel wore a blue nightgown that was almost translucent, and
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: one of her warders sat shirtless on the tent floor.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: Inside they were like playing like you know games, they
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: were playing adult games. And Nineve is coming in there
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: very awkwardly, being like I need I need you to
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: do business for a sec real quick, and Morel tries
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: to brush her off, and then Ninive is awesome about it,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: and by awesome I mean aggressive.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah no, this is just fun. It's this is definitely
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: one of those moments that's like a finally moment, like
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: Ninive finally. This is definitely a Sanderson checking this off,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: like nine finally needs to be bonded to Land. Are
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: you kidding me? Why has this not happened yet? Why
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: did it not happen when Ninive was first raised, as
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: I said, I by Agwayne at that moment, she should
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: have gone down Marel and gotten the bond, like this
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: is long overdue. It also answered some questions about how
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: the bond works and like how you can transfer it.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: You just need the two, I said, die in the
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: same place. The bond is this independent thing they can
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: pass around and sever and control from their end from
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: wherever they are. They don't need land there once it's
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: been formed. Handy.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, I just kind of have like a
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: good readout of that victory lap moment that closes the chapter.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: I don't really much to say about it other than
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: it fucking rules.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: I watched a movie last night, The Blackening. It's a
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: horror comedy, but the scene of myreel walking out it's
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: reminding me seen its two characters, you know, it's a
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: horror movie. So two characters go off in private have sex,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: and then they like they come back and the girl
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: walks in and gets her friend a hug and she's like, girl,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: you smell like cock even fucking And then he walks
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: in behind her and everyone goes, oh, like, I don't know.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: I that just reminded me moreel walking out of the
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: tent with the water coming up behind. Yeah.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: Basically basically that basically that.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, that was a really funny movie. By the way,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: I highly recommend it, both of me and never like
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: if you're looking for a good horror movie. The Blackening
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: you know all black characters addresses talks a lot about racism, right,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: Like it's this sort of game is set up to
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: kill them and it's just deeply racist, and so they're
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: constantly like going into and like, yeah, it's very funny.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: Cool, not my genre, but glad that happened for you.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: Well it is October, so I'm sure, yes, some people
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: will enjoy it.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: Sure, there's your movie recommendation from Watt spoilers.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: For and let me make sure I got the name
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: of that right before you publish this. Yes, the Blackening.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: All right, I'll put a link to the IMDb the.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: The tagline we can't all die first.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Nice, nice, very good. Oh that's funny. I think I've
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: heard about this as a couple of years old, twenty
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: twenty two.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: I remember reading a review when it came out, so
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: when being like the number of like black people in
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: horror movie tropes being in incise decisively like just taken
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: apart and played with as a movie is Apparently it
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: was very good. I remember reading some from some black
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: commentator being like, well that was fun. That was a
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: really fun, like highlight reel of all the bullshit we
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: deal with in the horror genre, but.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: At the same time just very funny and also very
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: well done.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly done in a way that was like
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: uplifting of the correct take, which is that's dumb. So
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: I do remember hearing about this, but yeah, it's just
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: not my ghenre.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 3: So totally fair. But if I would recommend it even
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: to people who are not big horror movie fans, right, Like,
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: I feel like the horror movie aspect of it is
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: almost beside the point.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, it's commentary in the context of a horror movie. Yes, yes, right,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: well I will go watch the trailer because I love
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: watching trailers. Maybe I'll watch it.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: So yeah, this is this is my argument. But yeah,
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: I think that's did you do the readout?
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: No, I'm ready to do the readout.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: Okay, I've distracted this. Sorry, damn, this is hard on
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: this episode, but I think it was worth Like, I
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: think there was a lot of good jumping off points
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: in this in this chapter.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: So no, I'm really glad that we did it in
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: such great detail and that we only did one chapter. Yes,
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: is definitely for sure.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well I looked at this and was like, yes,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: we're definitely going to dive deep into nine eves test.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: There's no doubt. I want to have the time and
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: not feel rushed.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, here's the readout. I neve caught
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: the woman's arm. I have never thanked you, she said,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: though she had to grit her teeth to get the
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: words out.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: I do so.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: Now he lives because of you. I realized that, however, Morrell,
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: this is not a time to push me today. I
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: have seen people I love slaughtered. I have been forced
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: to consign children to living torment. I have been burned, scourged,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: and harrowed. I swear to you, woman, if you do
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: not pass me lance borne to this very moment, I
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: will step into that tent and teach you the meaning
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: of obedience. Do not press me in the morning. I
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: swear the three oaths. I am free of them for
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: one more night. Morrel froze. Then she sighed and stepped
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: back out of the tent.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: So be it.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: She closed her eyes, weaving spirit and sending the weaves
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: into nineve. It felt like an object being shoved physically
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: into her mind. Naive gasped her surroundings spinning. Morrel turned
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: and slipped back into her tent. Ninives slid down until
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: she was sitting on the ground. Something was blossoming inside
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: her mind, an awareness, beautiful, wonderful. It was him and
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: he was still alive. Blessed light, she thought, eyes closed,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you. She knows. Wow, she's been trusting He's alive
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: this whole time. Now she knows. Now she has an
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: up to the second meter of Land's aliveness. And just
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: I love her, like I have one more night free
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: of the three o's and if you don't think I
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: will use everything that the three o's forbids to get
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: this bond from you who are mistaken and Morell's just
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: like yeah, no, okay, all right, fine, like this is
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: this is not worth it. I want to go back
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: to fucking my order.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: I would have liked to see some discussion about Moraine
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: and her intentions and like that whole promise to Land
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: that you'll thank me in the end, right, Like something
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: like that would have been nice to see. And I
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: do like Ninive bullying her a little bit, but her
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: maybe coming back being like listen, Moraine intended for me
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: to hold onto this bond until and I need to
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 3: go until it came to me because I'm the man
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: he loves. That was her intention. You saved his life,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: and she did do a little bit of that of you.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: You saved his life, and I appreciate that. But talk
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: about Moraine because it would have made the hug a
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: little more payoffable.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: That would have helped, Yeah, because yeah, Morrell has more
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: backbone than that, and being like, look, I wasn't being
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: petty or vindictive or trying to keep him from you.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: I was waiting for you to be ready, because that's
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: what I promised Moraine, and I promised to Moraine. Matters
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: more than helping you and Land get hooked up. Okay.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: And then Ninieve could be like, well the promise fulfilled.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: Give give now Morellet you're right, you're right, you pass
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: the test correct, Okay, I'm giving it. It would have
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: been fun for Morell to be less of a pushover
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: in this moment. But still Ninive's rant is lah perfect.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, no, very good moment, I will I can nitpick,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: but otherwise very well done. Yeah.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: And of course Kate Reading's rendition of it is fantastic
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: because Kate does angry so good.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's more the more emotion there is, the more
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: fun it is to read I've already learned that just
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: from our right, Like my favorite characters are still the
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: insane ones. For some reason, I will say that myrel's
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: sexy order is new Hell Dromond, the one who started
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: this whole conversation. That's oh yeah, apparently the illly honor
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 3: that's her order.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, big bear of a man, that's apparently what she likes.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, Land's not small.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: No, no, he is nat and uh yeah. We will
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: pick this up again next week with I think another doubleheader.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: But we're getting into a meteor and media part of.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: The book, so yep. This is definitely hitting the Sandra
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 3: Lange a little bit. Like we are on that slide,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: the shales moving, We're seeing rumblings like a lot more
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: exciting stuff is going on.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we will be back next week with more
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: of that. And for now we're gonna go work on
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: our secret project that we're being really not subtle about.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: Bye bye.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
• 1:29:48
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• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:29:56
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• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: at Fox and even Media dot com.