Latest / Preacher Handshake / Episode 5 - Cean James

Transcript

Episode 5 - Cean James · Preacher Handshake

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Welcome back to Preacher Handshake. I'm Evan.
0:02
And I'm Hannah, and we're your hosts. This episode,
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we talk with Reverend Sean R. James and look
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at a sermon he preached at Salt and Light in
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Philadelphia on March 9th, 2025. The sermon is
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called Trust in God and is based on Job 1315.
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Reverend Sean James is the senior pastor of Salt
0:19
and Light, an interdenominational and intergenerational
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congregation in Southwest Philadelphia and Mount
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Airy. He has a BS in biology. from Florida Agricultural
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and Mechanical University, an MDiv from Lutheran
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Theological Seminary of Philadelphia, and he's
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done doctoral work at Lancaster Theological Seminary.
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Reverend James is the Associate Conference Minister
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of Congregational Development for the Pennsylvania
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Southeast Conference of the UCC. In 2023, he
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helped develop Incessing Heals Community Resiliency
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Center, which is a federally funded trauma -informed
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resource center that helps local residents cope
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and thrive in the face of gun violence. In 2025,
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Reverend James received the President's Volunteer
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Service Award for dedication to community service
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from President Joe Biden. He is married to Kesha
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and they share three sons, Clarence Milton, Jesse
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Joseph and Sean Benjamin. I love getting to talk
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with Reverend James. He is such an engaging speaker
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and I just love the way that he revealed both
1:24
his preparation and the fresh insights that he
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was able to bring to the book of Job and to texts
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and passages that maybe we're familiar with.
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But he turned it in ways that I had never thought
1:36
about before that was really inspiring. And he
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was able to reveal how that works within his
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tradition and within his thinking and all of
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these things that are going on in the background
1:48
that helped inform this sermon. And I can't wait
1:50
for everybody to hear it. Yeah, I love that he
1:53
takes some time to really impact some of the
1:55
bad theology we have, especially when it comes
1:58
to Job and his story. He talks a lot about our
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relationship to like trials and tribulation and
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the way that we understand that and really kind
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of brings such a fresh insight to the story of
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Job, especially as we're thinking about like
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challenges that maybe come with interpreting
2:15
this well and using this well. So it was just
2:18
a really powerful conversation and I'm excited
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for people to hear it. As always, you can listen
2:23
to Sean's full sermon through the link in our
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show notes. Enjoy this conversation with Reverend
2:27
Sean James. Well, thank you, Reverend Sean James,
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for joining us today. Thank you for having me.
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I really appreciate it. It's a blessing to be
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here. We are so excited that you're here. To
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get started, we want to know, what is your relationship
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to preaching? So my relationship to preaching
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is a love affair built on absolute respect. I
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respect preaching. I am in love with preaching.
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I think that everything that... the Bible tells
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us about preaching is true. But for me personally,
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individually, I believe that preaching is a wonderful
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gift that we've been given by God, both as a
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gift for those who do the proclaiming and as
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a gift for those who hear the proclaiming. And
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for me, I value both of them equally. I value
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the times when I am the preacher. I absolutely
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value the times. Currently, we're in a Lenten
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series where our associates are preaching and
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sitting there and listening to great preaching
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is just as valuable to me as preaching. So this
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is a love affair for me that began as the son
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of a preacher. My father. was a preacher and
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I think an extremely good preacher. And most
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of who I am in preaching and the way that I preach
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was planted in me by my father. My father was
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a narrative preacher and he preached, which was
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also very unique at his time. My dad preached
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using everyday lessons, words, songs to relate
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the word of God. My dad's goal was, he said,
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you know, you're preaching well if you can look
4:22
at the children and they're paying attention
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to you and they know what you're saying. So my
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dad's model for preaching, believe it or not,
4:29
was Jesus. And likewise for me, I think the way
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Jesus preached. And I think I wish I could get
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more people to accept this, that Jesus preaching
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style is the preaching style. You take simple
4:41
everyday things that are right in front of people.
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You take the most basic things that people already
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know about and use them to explain the more complex
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things. And so through my father, I developed
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this really strong love affair for how can you
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take the absolute most complex spiritual. concept
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and make it so simple that a child sitting in
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the congregation is actually picking up on what
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you're talking about. So I love preaching and
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I love the work of you. Oh, thank you. I think
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that's so helpful. And, you know, I've just been
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thinking about that in my own preaching recently
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as we've got kind of a growing youth ministry
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and kids ministry and a history of kids and youth
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not being super engaged in the second half of
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the service. It's kind of a traditional way.
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And the question was, well, what do we do to
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help? Can we create something for them, whatever?
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And I thought, well, why don't we rethink how
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we're doing church if it's not engaging? So I
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love that model, and it comes through in the
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preacher that we're going to listen to today.
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I want to hear, if you don't mind, share a little
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bit about your congregation and your context
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for this sermon. Who are you preaching to? Who
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are these folks? Tell us about your church. Sure.
6:00
So about 20 years ago, I literally sat at the
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table I'm sitting at right now, my dining room
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table, and put a map of the city of Philadelphia
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on my table. There were about 10 people that
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were with me. We had all previously been a part
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of a very well -established, politically connected,
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what we in the Black church called white stocking,
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white glove, high steeple church that we'd all
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previously been a part of. We decided we want
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to do something different. Took a map of the
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city, put it on my dining room table. And someone
6:30
who was with us that day said, Sean, Southwest
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Philadelphia is the sickest, poorest, and least
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educated section of Philadelphia. And if you
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want to do effective ministry in Philadelphia,
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you need to go there. Now, at that time, what
6:43
I didn't know was when you plan a church, you're
6:44
supposed to do a demographic study. And you're
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supposed to make sure that there is a certain
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income level, a certain education level, a certain
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number of two -family households, and all these
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things you're supposed to do before you plan
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a church. I didn't know that. All I know is I
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heard this. this young lady and the Lord say,
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get thee to Southwest Philadelphia, very similar
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to Jonah's call to go to Nineveh. No one would
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have ever planted a church in Southwest Philadelphia,
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trust me. But that's what the Lord told me to
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do. And that's where we went. So we now have
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locations in Monterey and Southwest Philadelphia,
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which can't be two different sections of Philadelphia.
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Our eight o 'clock service is in Monterey, probably
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the highest income. African -American community
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in Philadelphia. So this is where you're more
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kind of well -to -do African -Americans live
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in Philadelphia. Southwest Philadelphia is an
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area of low income and poverty, particularly
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because it is a high immigrant and a high section
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eight population. And I'm setting this all up
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to kind of explain that I actually end up preaching.
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We have three services now. And I really end
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up preaching to kind of three separate crowds.
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The 8 o 'clock crowd is a little older, a little
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more well -to -do, more professional in their
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development and in their career. And then we
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do, and that service is in Mount Airy. So we
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do 8 o 'clock in Mount Airy. And then we do 9
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.30 and 11 .30. And the clip we're going to hear
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from the 11 .30 service in Southwest Philadelphia.
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The 9 .30 service is. the hardcore Jesus people
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service. I mean, those are the people who come,
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they come to have church. The 1130 service, believe
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it or not, is actually the week, 930 is too early
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for us to get up. So this is our younger service,
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our younger service, which if I'm honest with
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you, is one of the harder preaching services.
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Each service has its own unique personality.
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And I preach the same sermon at all three services
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every now and then I won't. But for the most
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part, especially if I'm doing a series, I preach
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the same sermon at all three services. So I'd
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say 95 % of our church is African -American.
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After the pandemic, an interesting change in
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our church has been the number of churched people
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that we have. Before the pandemic, like most
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planted churches, we mostly attracted people
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who were new to the faith. So we mostly attracted
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seekers and people who'd never been baptized.
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It was always amazing to me to meet 40, 50, 60
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-year -olds who never committed themselves to
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the Lord, which is a northern... phenomenon more
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than a southern one like i'm originally you know
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a lot of time in atlanta and everybody i know
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in atlanta goes to church um very different up
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north and it's particularly in philadelphia um
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so most of our church then was seekers now after
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the pandemic we started to attract mostly because
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of our online presence early on things like that
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we start to attract church people so now we're
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preaching to like previously i would have said
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i preached mostly to an unchurched crowd now
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i preach to a mix very much a mix a lot of people
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who know the lord for a long time lot of people
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don't. A lot of people have been church for a
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long time. A lot of people are very new. So even
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in the story that I told Sunday, while I think
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it's a story that church people know off the
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top of their head, I always have to remind myself
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that there are a lot of people in our congregation
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who are unchurched. So 95 % African -American,
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multitude of economic and educational places
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in our church. So we got... PhDs and we got no
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Ds and we got GEDs and everything that's there.
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And honestly, one of the wonderful things about
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the personality of our church is all of that
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is. all around the church. And you never really
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would be able to tell that. That, of course,
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has been some really purposeful work because
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even in the African -American churches, and maybe
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even more in the African -American churches,
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our churches sometimes tend to populate based
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on economic status and kind of the job you do.
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And that also kind of then influences the worship
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style. But for us, we've been really purposeful
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in creating a worship style that makes everyone
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feel comfortable, but also creating an atmosphere
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that is very egalitarian as far as who people
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are and where they come from. I think for me,
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we're trying to look more like the kingdom. Another
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interesting point is that the few Caucasian folk
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that we do have in our church, we do have several,
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actually go back to a time when a long time ago,
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the building that we're in was a Presbyterian
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church, a white Presbyterian church in that neighborhood.
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And we've had some folk that have held on. I
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mean, it's a lot of spooky stuff that I could
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talk about as far as prayer is concerned and
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like how so many churches doing white flight
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end up having to close and become apartments
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and things like that. But crazy enough for all
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of these years. we're talking about 175 years
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now, this church building has maintained ministry
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from a 100 % white Presbyterian church to now
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a close to 100 % Black, neo -Pentecostal type
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church. And so there are a few of that population
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that have held on. And honestly, they love the
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church. They mostly love the fact that it's vibrant
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again. You know, there was a fall between Presbyterian
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church kind of coming, Black Presbyterian church
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kind of falling down to about 20 or so people
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and then are coming in and kind of taking over
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and everything getting going again. Another thing
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I think is really important to say about our
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church preaching lives is these are people who
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actually really do value preaching. We have great
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music. We have great ministries. We have a fantastic
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youth ministry, and I believe in holistic ministry.
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But you don't come to salt and light unless you
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value preaching. Because we put such a high value
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in preaching. And there's, I believe, the way
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in which we present the word of God lets people
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know. Most people come to our church because
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of the preaching. And so these are people who
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come every Sunday. I'm looking in their faces
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and they're sitting there with this big question
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mark on their forehead. They're like, sir, what
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do you have to say? We want to see Jesus now.
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Come on, what you got? Well, thank you for sharing
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that. And it's so resonant. Hannah and I were.
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Say we were on a teaching team together at a
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church in Texas, and we had four services in
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two different spaces and different style. And
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we would often use that similar language of it's
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basically four different congregations, and they
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all have different backgrounds and expectations.
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And it impacts that preaching event as you're
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navigating the different personalities of what
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is one church, but really is expressed four different
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ways. What's really interesting about that, and
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I try to when I'm teaching, preaching or like
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even giving advice to our preachers, is to know
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that in a situation like this, like any given
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Sunday. I might find any of the three where what
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I would consider the best, which is like really
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weird. Like there's sometimes I'm like eight,
13:32
the eight o 'clock crowd tells me I practice
13:34
on them, but there are some times where the eight
13:36
o 'clock is actually the best sermon. Now the
13:37
eight o 'clock people watch the nine 30 and the
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1130, but sometimes eight o 'clock is, I feel
13:42
like I did my best. Sometimes nine 30 pulls out
13:45
a great sermon. Sometimes 1130 pulls out a great
13:48
sermon. So it's weird how those different personalities
13:50
also, depending on what I'm saying and how I'm
13:53
preaching it. pull out different things oh it's
13:56
so true yeah we would we would at the end be
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after the sunday morning be like okay now for
14:01
the youtube version send a 930 or, you know,
14:04
because you would know which one you felt that
14:07
you connected with. Yeah, that's so true. And
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I love that you have done the work, obviously,
14:13
to be able to read your people really well. I
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imagine that that probably spends a lot of your
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time as you're thinking about preparing of like
14:21
thinking through the ways that you're going to
14:23
speak to each particular crowd and what each
14:25
venue looks like and all those sorts of things.
14:28
Can you speak more to what, in addition to that
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kind of work here? doing what your sermon prep
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process looks like throughout the week sure absolutely
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so sermon prep to me is like critically important
14:39
um and this is one of the ways i try to explain
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it the most important preaching class i ever
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had in my life was my ninth and 10th grade English
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class. I had a fantastic teacher in ninth and
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10th grade English. In fact, in ninth grade,
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we wrote our first 10 page research paper. So
14:57
we wrote a full 10 page graduate school research
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paper. We had like a hundred works cited, bibliography,
15:03
everything. And our instructor was really, really
15:07
careful about making sure we develop the skills
15:10
of how to make an argument, how to create a thesis,
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how to then. um, explain that thesis, how to
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make your point and how to come to a conclusion.
15:20
And I'm telling you like really real talk. That
15:22
is the best teaching class I've had because still
15:24
to this day, that's my process. I began with
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what I want people to get. What is my main point?
15:31
What is the main thrust of the sermon? I then
15:33
go through the process of now here's what I need
15:37
to say to get people to this point. Right. So
15:41
I began with that. And then, um, Monday, Tuesday,
15:45
Wednesday, I consider free thought days. And
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what I do is everything that I get, I just write
15:51
it down. I don't begin to organize it. I'm listening
15:54
to the Lord. I'm in the shower. I'm driving my
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car. And literally, I like nowadays being able
15:59
to voice record things. Because what you do is
16:02
back in the day, you say, oh man, that was a
16:04
great thing that just came to me while I was
16:05
playing basketball. I need to write that down.
16:08
And then after you finish playing basketball,
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you have no idea what that thing was. And it's
16:11
completely gone. And so what I've learned now
16:13
is that I just voice record it. So free thought,
16:15
first three days. I'm getting everything. It's
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coming. I'm thankful, hopefully. Now, sometimes
16:20
I get to Wednesday and have nothing. But in a
16:22
good week. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, things
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are coming. I'm listening and I'm just writing
16:27
it down, writing it down. Around Thursday, then
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I start to organize it. And I say, based on my
16:33
thesis, based on the point that I'm trying to
16:36
make, based on the main thing I want people to
16:38
get, here's how I have to get to that based on
16:41
the text. So using the text and using the scripture,
16:44
I first need to say this. I then need to say
16:47
this. I then need to say this. I then need to
16:49
say that. And that'll get me to my conclusion.
16:52
Not always three points. Sometimes it is. Sometimes
16:54
it's two. Sometimes it's one. Sometimes it's
16:56
five. But whatever I need to do to eventually
16:59
get to that place. That is my goal. And so then
17:04
sometime around Friday, Saturday is when I start
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to write out my full manuscript. I believe in
17:11
having a full manuscript and I take a full manuscript
17:13
with me to the pulpit. And you may have noticed
17:15
in the video that I rarely look down at it now,
17:19
unless I may be doing a run that I don't remember
17:22
exactly all the steps of the run. But I believe.
17:26
for the organizational reasons, especially, and
17:29
a full manuscript. And I do think that that is
17:32
one of the deficiencies that I often hear in
17:35
preaching nowadays is the organization that could
17:37
have been helped if everything had been done.
17:40
So with the preachers that I teach and with the
17:42
preachers in our church as well, even though
17:44
some of them are not, and I understand this,
17:46
I see this in them. There are a lot of my preachers
17:48
that are not manuscript type preachers. I encourage
17:51
them to write the whole thing out anyway. even
17:54
if you don't take it up there with you. And especially
17:56
for this reason, there's certain lines in the
17:59
sermon that are absolutely critical. The lines
18:03
themselves are not critical, but how you get
18:06
to the line is the most important part. And so
18:08
in order to get to that line, I need you to make
18:11
sure you move through the right steps, right?
18:13
Here's another reason to go with the full manuscript.
18:16
And this will be similar, is a mistake I hear
18:19
a lot of preachers make also is they're so eager
18:22
to get to the good part. that they give it all
18:25
away at the beginning. And I can even tell with
18:27
some of them, they weren't intending to do that.
18:29
Like you weren't even intended to give the good
18:32
part away at the beginning, but you just got
18:34
so happy and excited. So write it all out, be
18:38
patient with it, know what steps you need to
18:40
get to so that you can eventually get to the
18:43
end. So, you know, there are 800 ,000 different
18:45
ways of looking at preaching. And a lot of people,
18:48
privately, we're talking a little bit about Joe
18:50
Gregory and Joe Gregory's concept is that you
18:52
should, give the end from the beginning and then
18:55
kind of work your way back there. That's not
18:57
mine. I like to leave the tension. I know where
19:00
I'm going. I like to present the antithesis first.
19:03
I present the problem first. I'm a little bit
19:05
of that kind of problem in the text, problem
19:06
in society type preacher. I really set up the
19:09
problem first, and then I start to work my way
19:12
towards where the solution is in the text. I
19:16
took Joe Greger for preaching one and struggled
19:18
with that model a little bit. But who was I to
19:22
question? And it works. And when I get in trouble,
19:24
I still go back to it because it always works.
19:27
But I found that creating that narrative tension,
19:30
especially in our current context and with unchurched
19:33
folks and people with a lot of questions, to
19:36
be able to create that tension draws them in
19:39
in a way that having that big idea up front was
19:42
helpful. You lose some of the power, I think,
19:47
as you build your way. Yeah, that's good stuff.
19:50
I think for the unchurched as well, and I would
19:55
definitely say for a younger crowd, which my
19:57
church tends towards, connecting the sermon to
20:01
their current lived experience, which unfortunately
20:04
the most part is going to be what they're struggling
20:06
with, is extremely helpful. And so I like to
20:08
get to the struggle. And I like for them to be
20:10
able to see the struggle and then work our way
20:13
towards the struggle. to the solution. I wanted
20:16
to ask this before we start to look at actual
20:19
clips of this specific message. One of the things
20:21
that struck me about your preaching is the sync
20:24
that you are in with your musicians, your music
20:27
director. I mean, there is punctuation and just
20:32
constant kind of involvement to kind of illustrate,
20:34
illuminate as you're proclaiming. And I was curious
20:38
about your relationship with your music leaders.
20:42
And if there's... You've talked a lot about your
20:46
preparation. It's clear that there's so much
20:48
work going on there. Is there preparation in
20:50
that connection and where you're going? Did they
20:52
get the manuscript ahead of time? Tell us a little
20:55
bit about that. Very interesting. Great question.
20:57
Great question. So the organic nature of that
21:01
is something that African -American preachers
21:06
and churches do that for a long time, we had
21:08
no idea where it came from. It's only recently
21:10
that it's been discovered that this is actually
21:12
an African practice that goes back to a time
21:15
that we didn't really understand. And in West
21:17
Africa, the personality that was usually kind
21:20
of like the diviner was called the griot. And
21:23
usually when that person started to do their
21:25
work, what we discovered is that usually there
21:27
would be beating, music, the drum, you know,
21:29
important the drum was in African societies that
21:31
would go along with it. And so the rhythm that
21:33
is a part of African -American preaching and
21:35
the melody is something that really is kind of
21:38
African. African in its nature that we kind of
21:41
brought into America. Again, most of us have
21:43
no idea and did not know that. Some really good
21:46
research has gone recently into kind of bringing
21:49
an understanding of that. So there's a part of
21:51
it that is just germane and natural to who we
21:54
are. For me specifically, I like that type of
21:59
push. All throughout the sermon and a lot of
22:02
areas of African -American preaching, they will
22:04
wait till the celebration and only in the close
22:06
will they bring that in. You probably noticed
22:08
that with my musicians, we do it early on all
22:11
throughout the sermon. And because I think that.
22:14
The sermon, the ending is not just the good part.
22:17
It's not just the part that there are sometimes
22:19
very early on where the emphasis of it really
22:22
kind of emphasizes what's going on. We don't
22:25
practice it. We don't talk about it. They don't
22:27
know. They just know what I expect. It's what
22:31
we've also learned is that I'm. unique in that,
22:34
and that most other preachers, guest preachers,
22:36
or even some of the other preachers in the church
22:37
don't want that. They don't want it until they
22:39
get to the very end. And so they usually don't
22:42
even consider coming in. But with me, they know
22:44
I'm absolutely fine with it throughout the sermon.
22:47
Now, what is important about communication with
22:50
the sermon now for us is the tech team. I did
22:53
not in this sermon, but I am leaning more into
22:55
the use of technology and screens and videos
22:58
and video clips, even pictures and stuff during
23:02
the sermon. We have this huge screen behind my
23:04
head when I'm preaching. You can't see it in
23:06
the clip because it's above. But I am really
23:09
into now. And I've got some really great examples.
23:13
There's wonderful times when I've kind of leaned
23:15
it. I did a sermon on scars and the ministry
23:19
of your scars. And I used an African -American
23:21
actor. recently died. He has a huge scar that
23:24
ran from the top of his forehead all the way
23:26
down. And just his picture on the screen for
23:31
the majority of the service and why I was trying
23:32
to explain. And he, early on in his career, people
23:36
suggested to him that he get plastic surgery,
23:38
that he get it covered up. But it actually became
23:40
his trademark. And a lot of the parts that he
23:42
got was because he had this scar running down.
23:45
So this gentleman that played Omar in The Wire,
23:47
it was because of that scar. that he actually
23:51
got his work. And so I've learned, and what I'll
23:54
do is I will give the full manuscript to the
23:57
tech team. And I'll say, at this point, pull
23:59
up this video. At this point, pull up this picture.
24:01
At this point. And so I do go through the whole
24:04
thing with them. And that's one of the things
24:05
I'm trying to teach more. Because what I will
24:06
tell you is for young people, it's crazy. Not
24:10
just trying to teach more. I spend a whole lot
24:12
of time now trying to convince churches to put
24:14
screens in. I try to convince them that like,
24:17
if you want to have young people. This is a screen
24:20
generation. You can harp on books all you want
24:25
to. They don't even really get textbooks anymore.
24:27
Most of their schooling is done on a screen.
24:29
And so teaching and preaching for me that the
24:32
lean in I'm making now is leaning to this idea
24:34
of using technologies and screens and video clips
24:38
and pictures during the sermon. And then I will
24:40
communicate that with the tech team. With the
24:43
band, it's really just a feel. We will every
24:46
now and then talk about. the song that we close
24:51
with. Now, from a Black preaching perspective,
24:56
and I don't know if you're familiar with this
24:57
term, but you'll know I am not a hooper. And
24:59
that's a term that's used for kind of like this
25:01
kind of singing rhythmic closing. I don't do
25:03
that. It's a gift that I don't have. I close
25:08
mostly and particularly either with a story or
25:12
with a song. And usually with that story, that
25:15
song, the band already knows where I'm going.
25:18
So they will either pick the song up and keep
25:21
going with it, or they will have, we'll talk
25:24
about what's a good song that both connects with
25:26
the sermon and creates a good invitation situation.
25:29
So we want to end with a song that has a connection
25:32
to the end of the sermon and the invitation moment.
25:34
Yeah, I'm really impressed with and thinking
25:36
about in the creation of the preaching process.
25:41
to how collaborative it is to be able to, and
25:44
what role the musicians and your, your tech team
25:48
gets to have in this act of proclamation that
25:52
they're really, they're really, they're not just
25:54
punctuating, but, but participating in it. And
25:57
it's such a value. Which speaks to just the idea
26:00
of black preaching in general. Now, let me say
26:03
this. I've got this theory. Y 'all hang in with
26:05
me on this. I think that a black church and white
26:08
church ever get together and talk. we actually
26:10
can make something fantastic and bring together
26:13
the different nuances of that we do good. And
26:17
these are generalizations, of course, but I think
26:19
there are certain things that black church and
26:21
white church just kind of naturally do well culturally,
26:23
right? And what I try to do at Salt and Light
26:26
is, so we're technically denominationally UCC
26:29
and Presbyterian. So I'd spent a lot of time
26:32
in kind of white church spaces. And I knew the
26:34
things that white church do well and organizing
26:36
and planning and meeting. I mean, you know, we
26:38
say that the UCC, they meet about the meeting.
26:40
Like they, before there's a meeting, there's
26:42
a meeting about what's going to happen at the
26:43
meeting. And then they actually have the meeting.
26:45
And so like, I've tried to bring into, and so
26:48
in black church, generalization again is kind
26:50
of free and spirit led. And we just, you know,
26:52
we just leave it out there for the Holy Spirit
26:54
to do whatever the Holy Spirit wants to do. Well,
26:56
what if we could do both? You know, what if it
26:58
was spirit and truth? And so I've been trying
27:00
to create this church atmosphere where we plan
27:02
and we organize. We got some great, you know,
27:04
there's such good software right now around church
27:06
planning and worship planning that we try to
27:08
do all of that planning, but then leave Rome.
27:12
for the work of this, but it actually happened
27:13
yesterday at the 1130 service where the spirit
27:17
moves so thick in the middle of service that
27:19
I, it was such a good move that I couldn't go
27:21
from there into the announcements. Like, like
27:24
the next thing on the order of service was the
27:26
announcements. And I was just like, okay, we
27:27
went from there straight to the sermon, which
27:29
I was not preaching. I guess yesterday it was,
27:31
we not guess we had. To honor Women's History
27:33
Month, three of our sister preachers preached
27:36
yesterday. And at the 1130 service, went straight
27:39
from this kind of like the middle selection slot.
27:42
Normally after that would be announcements, welcome
27:46
of visitors, all that kind of stuff before we
27:48
got to the meditation selection and then the
27:50
sermon. I'm like, nope, we're going straight
27:51
to the sermon, which there's a freedom in that.
27:54
But even to me, the more organized you are, the
27:57
easier it is to decide at the right time that
28:00
you actually want to make a shift into something
28:01
different. Well, let's look specifically at the
28:05
one of the ways that you begin this message.
28:08
You give this really powerful section thinking
28:11
about trusting God. And I'd like to listen to
28:13
a clip of that. Can you still trust God? when
28:18
you can't trace God? Can you still trust God
28:21
when there's no evidence that God is still on
28:23
your side? Can you still trust God when it feels
28:27
like God has completely forgotten your name?
28:29
Can you still trust God when you've been pressing
28:31
your way through an unanswered prayer? Can you
28:34
still trust God when everybody has walked out
28:36
on you and nobody is looking out for you? Can
28:39
you still trust God when you can't make a way
28:42
out of no way because there ain't a way to be
28:44
made because you can't find it? Can you trust
28:46
them even? when you're going through. Man, what
28:51
a powerful way to begin. These are powerful examples
28:55
you give of ways that people may struggle to
28:58
trust God. And knowing what you've told us about
29:01
how in tune you are with your congregation, I'm
29:04
wondering how you decided what were those things
29:06
that you were going to include in this list of
29:08
maybe reasons why people struggle to trust God.
29:14
This was a second, this is the second sermon
29:17
of a series. And the first sermon was from Proverbs
29:22
3, you know, trust those with all their heart
29:23
and lean out to their own understanding. So I'd
29:25
already done a sermon on just the unique, wonderful
29:29
nature of trusting God, why it's necessary, beautiful
29:33
stuff, full heart, you know, lean out on your
29:36
own understanding, right? And so this next sermon.
29:39
was going a little deeper so yes you can trust
29:42
god when the sun is shining yes you can trust
29:44
god because he's blessing yes you but let's let's
29:47
really talk about what trust is so here's what
29:50
i can tell you about about my church that I really
29:53
value is they really enjoy living in these tough
29:57
spots. My church does not expect cotton candy
30:00
sermons. They don't expect me to come in there
30:02
and just tell them that everything's going to
30:04
be great. They don't expect self -help sermons.
30:06
They don't expect me to come in and just tell
30:07
them, you know, read the scripture and you're
30:09
going to live on sunshine and rainbows. They
30:12
are expecting me to help them work through the
30:15
tension and the difficult points of life. And
30:17
so this was a list that really come, that kind
30:20
of comes out of and breathes out of a general
30:23
way of explaining the difficulties that maybe
30:26
everyone is having. Now, you'll notice I wasn't
30:29
too specific here. Like I didn't go into things
30:31
like divorce or. or a hardcore financial problem
30:35
because I wanted to do generalizations that everyone
30:37
would hear something in each one that related
30:40
to their situations. There will be times that
30:42
I will get a little bit more specific, but I
30:44
really try to make sure that I am shooting one
30:46
with a shotgun and not a rifle, if you understand
30:48
what I'm saying. I want to hit everybody. I want
30:49
everyone to get and to find something in what
30:52
I'm trying to say. Usually when I do runs, that's
30:55
exactly what I'm thinking. And in black church,
30:57
we kind of call it a run. Like you start to run
30:58
through a list of things. And usually when I
31:00
do that, I'm like, okay, I want to make sure
31:01
everybody, Here's what I'm saying. And sometimes
31:04
I will pull a thing out. Like there may be something
31:06
that in my kind of like in my free thought time,
31:08
I need to say this, I need to say that. And then
31:11
once I start to kind of get more specific, I'm
31:13
like, no, I don't want to say this because this
31:16
only kind of applies to a specific group. Now,
31:19
not that there are times that I would do some
31:20
type of work like that, but in a situation like
31:23
that, I wanted during that time to say something
31:27
where no one sitting in there could think to
31:31
themselves. I haven't experienced the difficulty
31:35
of trust that he's talking about. So I wanted
31:38
to give a list that was comprehensive. That's
31:40
the way to say it. And make sure that everyone
31:41
kind of felt what I was saying. Yeah, I imagine
31:44
there's so many things that you gave that were,
31:46
you're right, very general. But then I love,
31:49
you see throughout the sermon, you do get really
31:51
specific at times too. So I see you kind of playing
31:54
with that general, broad, everybody kind of catches
31:56
everybody in that. And then the, let's be maybe
31:59
a little more specific that is maybe speaking
32:01
to particular things in your setting. You do
32:05
something early on, which I think is so important,
32:08
where you talk about some of the bad theology
32:11
that has been attached, especially to Job. You
32:14
say at one point that everything we believe about
32:17
trials and tribulations is tied up in this text.
32:20
And then you talk about maybe some of the bad
32:22
interpretations that we have about Job. I'm just
32:26
so curious about how you kind of came to this
32:29
conclusion where Job really does inhabit a lot
32:33
of these bad theological readings you've come
32:36
to realize. And why do you think that preaching
32:39
is a tool for combating bad theology? Very good.
32:44
That's a great question. So for this one in particular,
32:47
what's really weird about it is it is an internally
32:50
bad theology. One that literally goes back to
32:54
the beginning of time. It's hard to find. And
32:56
that's the weird thing about how bad theologies
32:58
work is even though there is much evidence in
33:04
the Bible. including specific times when Jesus
33:07
preaches against this, we still struggle with
33:11
this very thought. And this is the thought that
33:13
if something bad is happening in your life, you
33:16
have to have done something bad to cause it,
33:18
right? And I use the example in the sermon of
33:20
Jesus and disciples, and they meet this man.
33:22
And literally, there are certain occasions that
33:25
happen in Jesus' life, or even all throughout
33:27
the Bible, where there's an extremely specific
33:30
thing. that it's trying to handle. So I would
33:33
almost say that the whole reason why Jesus and
33:35
his disciples happened upon this man is because
33:37
Jesus wants to handle this really bad thing that
33:41
people have been believing for a very long time.
33:43
So disciples see this man, been blind since birth,
33:45
and disciples are living under this notion that
33:48
if something bad happens to you, I mean, and
33:49
I would say in Jesus' time, maybe even more,
33:50
like they really were like, okay, this was their
33:53
entire theological concept. You're suffering.
33:57
You did something bad. Well, he was born blind.
34:00
So how do you explain that? Well, they were so
34:03
stuck on this idea that their explanation was,
34:06
well, his parents must have done something wrong
34:08
and he's suffering because of what they've done.
34:11
Of course, Jesus does his best to not say to
34:12
them, no, he's not suffering because he did something
34:15
wrong or suffering because his parents did something
34:16
wrong. But in this case, Jesus said he's suffering
34:19
so that the glory of God might be revealed through
34:21
him. And so I wanted to deal with it. I think
34:24
Job deals with it. I think there's a lot of Job.
34:27
I mean, Job is just so thick, but Job really
34:29
deals with this idea that our suffering has to
34:33
be connected to sin, has to be connected to something
34:36
you've done wrong. And sin being, of course,
34:37
the main one, like this is the hard part. And
34:39
I still, you know, still to this day, people
34:42
come to me and I can't even say that I'm devoid
34:44
of this problem myself. You know, I sometimes
34:46
I'm dealing with some stuff and I'm thinking,
34:48
man. What did I do? Because, you know, why would
34:52
God put me through this? And a number of times
34:55
the church people come to me. But then I still
34:57
hear sermons. I still know people. And especially
34:59
out of some of the more apostolic Pentecostal
35:02
holiness worlds where this really is their thought.
35:05
Like you were either blessed, highly favored
35:07
because you're doing right or you're suffering
35:10
because you're doing wrong. Well, explain Job.
35:14
Explain a man that Jesus, that God, I'm sorry,
35:17
describes as upright and righteous and doing
35:20
everything he could to live right. And then he
35:23
suffers in probably the most unimaginable way
35:26
that any of us could. And so I really think it's
35:28
important as often as possible to, and I'll say
35:34
this too. I didn't say this specifically in this
35:36
sermon, but I do say it a lot of times. I am
35:39
fighting against the televangelist. Not that
35:43
all televangelists is bad and not that all that
35:45
they say is bad. And I will tell you, during
35:46
COVID, thank God for the televangelists because
35:49
they taught us how to look into the camera and
35:51
how to talk. to a congregation while we're also
35:55
talking to an online or television crew. But
35:58
so much of what we have to combat nowadays are
36:02
people who are coming to church, having developed
36:04
most of their theological understanding on, and
36:07
nowadays more even so, on social media and from
36:11
30 second clips. of sermons where a lot of times
36:15
they're just going to get some really, really
36:17
bad stuff that is not a part of Christian theology.
36:20
And so that conversation that Jesus has with
36:23
the disciples and the book of Job to me ought
36:25
to be enough for people to know. Sometimes, yes,
36:28
sometimes your suffering is the ramifications
36:30
of your actions. No doubt about it. There are
36:33
some times. And let me also connect this. This
36:36
is a wonderful piece of this that I think comes
36:38
out of African -American theological thought.
36:41
Sometimes it's what we call unmerited suffering.
36:45
Sometimes your suffering is completely unmerited.
36:49
But we believe that that type of suffering is
36:51
redemptive. Unmerited suffering is redemptive.
36:53
You are going to suffer. for absolutely no reason
36:56
sometimes. Now there's a whole wonderful theology
36:59
about how God operates in that and how, you know,
37:02
you have to trust God and what's actually happening
37:04
and, you know, all that good stuff. But just
37:08
to know, especially to a person who is still
37:13
developing their understanding of God, to know,
37:16
yes, there are going to be some times when you
37:20
were going to go through something. And I think
37:21
the language I use is not because you've done
37:23
something wrong. It could actually be because
37:25
you've done something right. And you need to
37:29
know how you and God are going to work your way
37:31
through that and understand it. I've had both
37:34
in my life. I've had plenty of sufferings, but
37:36
I know exactly why this is happening. And usually
37:39
it's the ramification of something. I've also
37:41
gone through some things and grown spiritually
37:44
to a point where nowadays I can sometimes look
37:45
at some stuff and say, all right, God, what are
37:47
you trying to teach me? What are you trying to
37:49
grow in me? What are you trying to show me? What
37:52
am I supposed to learn from this season? Preaching
37:55
through Job right now as well. And it's been
37:58
so helpful for me and I hope my congregation,
38:02
I think so. And I've preached it before with
38:04
students or whatever. I mean, there's really
38:06
this, that retributive theology, right? God's
38:09
going to zap you if you're bad and give you money
38:11
if you're good, right? Or whatever it is, it's
38:14
so prevalent, which is everywhere. And so I really
38:19
love how you pulled that out and made that so
38:21
clear. At one point, you're playing around with
38:24
the introduction to Job, you know, which is the
38:26
kind of throne room scene where the Satan shows
38:31
up and you're really playing with that idea.
38:35
And I did not see this coming. You make this
38:37
contrast with God being willing to invite the
38:42
devil into this scene with your own numbers.
38:46
And so I want to play that clip. God is having
38:49
a meeting of all the sons of heaven, and the
38:53
devil got invited to the meeting and had the
38:56
nerve to show up. Now, I'm not going to sit here,
38:58
but I want you to think about this this week
39:01
in your own spirit. How is it? that God could
39:04
call a meeting in heaven and sit down with the
39:06
devil that tried to have a coup up in heaven,
39:10
the devil that tried to overthrow God from his
39:13
own position, the devil that took a third of
39:15
the angels and got thrown out of heaven. God
39:17
can sit down and meet with them, but you can't
39:20
come to choir rehearsal and sit next to somebody
39:22
because then you heard they've been talking about
39:25
you. I love that part of the sermon. It made
39:29
me laugh. I'm pastoring in a mostly white mainline
39:35
context and in a more kind of progressive context.
39:38
And so when in those contexts, I've noticed most
39:41
of the time our preaching is often characterized
39:42
by, you know, hey, the love of God is all through
39:47
it. But there is seems to be maybe an allergy
39:50
to calling people out. But my preacher friends
39:53
of color do such a beautiful job of holding both.
39:57
You are so loved. And also. I just love and admire
40:04
and would love to get better at that ability.
40:07
So I'd love if you share a little bit about the
40:09
role of calling people out in your congregation
40:12
through the preaching. So let me say a couple
40:14
of things about that. One is that is some very,
40:19
very delicate work, which you'll notice here
40:22
was not the whole sermon. Didn't stay there long.
40:26
Because I think you're going to drive your congregation
40:28
away. And I know some hellfire and brimstone
40:31
preachers who spend their whole sermon calling
40:33
people out. Also, what I tell associates, and
40:38
again, in homiletics classes, I tell people certain
40:41
work is unique senior pastor work. And that's
40:46
a part of it. And I really try to get my associates
40:48
to get this. Because every now and then, one
40:49
of them will feel like, oh, let me go handle
40:52
this issue. And this is what I say to them. The
40:54
more specific the issue even, the more you need
40:57
to let me handle it. You don't preach towards
41:00
things you see going on in the church. Don't
41:01
preach about situations that we need. And there
41:03
are, of course, they are there. Because over
41:06
time and experience, I've learned how to deal
41:08
with what's right in front of us. I've learned
41:10
what to remain general. I've learned what to
41:12
talk about specifically. I've learned how to
41:14
shroud it in jokes and laughter. I've learned
41:18
how to make it subversive. So half the time,
41:21
you know, I'm talking about them. But I've also
41:23
learned that we have to deal with some of these
41:26
things. I think the worst thing we do sometimes
41:27
is when we completely leave them out. And for
41:30
me, the number one thing that I'm going to talk
41:32
about like that is how we treat each other. Like
41:35
my number one point where I will find. it necessary
41:39
in somatic moments will be, it won't necessarily
41:42
be about your own individual sin. It won't be
41:44
about necessarily the things that you're doing.
41:47
I'll get on societal stuff, no doubt about it.
41:49
But how we treat one another, especially in church,
41:52
is one where I have no problem talking about
41:55
that and making sure that people understand.
41:56
Because one of the most important priorities
41:59
and values of our church is welcome, is how we
42:03
interact with one another. is create an atmosphere
42:06
where there is love, joy, peace among each other.
42:10
And it's rare for me to preach a sermon where
42:13
I don't have something in there that talks about
42:16
how we treat one another. And especially when
42:20
I can, like, again, this was not the main point.
42:23
In fact, these little kind of... We sometimes
42:26
in black feature call them parenthetical points.
42:28
I'm just going to put a parenthesis around this.
42:31
I also think are also ear perking moments, because
42:35
even if someone is starting to get a little bored
42:37
by what I'm talking about, if I'm talking about
42:40
too consistently, let me throw something in that's
42:43
a little off subject that that might kind of
42:46
wake you up and get your attention back on the
42:48
server. Oh, did that. And and it was shrouded
42:53
in humor and all that. I mean, it's so effective.
42:56
at one point you say sometimes and you mentioned
42:58
this earlier we might be facing trials not because
43:02
of something we've done wrong but maybe sometimes
43:03
because of something we've done right so I want
43:05
to share that clip with you Situations you're
43:09
going to face in this life are not because you've
43:12
done something wrong. It's because God has been
43:14
bragging about you. And because God has been
43:17
bragging about you, that's why you're going through
43:20
it right now. That God is up in heaven telling
43:24
the devil, have you noticed her? Have you noticed
43:27
him? Why did you want to pull that for? I'm preaching
43:32
to you right now and had not really taken that
43:34
angle at any point. And I love it. And I want
43:38
to hear why you think that's so valuable. Sure.
43:41
So let me do something more general before I
43:45
discuss that. I think that preaching is a gift.
43:50
I think that we're living in a time in a lot
43:53
of places, if I'm going to be very honest with
43:56
you, and this will just show you just my pure
43:57
unadulterated love for preaching, is I feel like
44:05
I feel like we've flooded the market with preachers.
44:09
I feel like there's a thing that preachers have,
44:12
and I want to explain it this way. Every now
44:16
and then, you ought to hear something from the
44:19
Lord that puts a chill in your body. And you
44:26
think to yourself, man, I've been a Christian
44:28
a long time. Okay, so I'm going to tell you my
44:31
first one. I was in college. I accepted my college
44:33
ministry when I was 20. I think it was my third
44:36
sermon. I preached from the woman who had been
44:38
accused of adultery. All the years I've been
44:42
hearing this story. And I think that these are
44:47
new things. Because I think sometimes preachers
44:50
get so caught up on trying to say something nobody
44:51
said before that you say some foolishness. But
44:55
I look at this story and one of the principles
44:57
of the story is the Pharisees and Sadducees and
45:00
scribes trying to catch Jesus breaking the law.
45:03
That's actually what they were trying to do.
45:04
They had nothing to do with this woman. They
45:05
were trying to catch Jesus breaking the law.
45:08
Jesus says to them, I'm not going to break the
45:10
law. Because the law of Moses says we have to
45:12
stone her. What do you say? Knowing that out
45:14
of compassion, Jesus is not going to let them
45:16
stone this woman. They know him. So he says,
45:20
okay, I'm not going to tell you not to stone
45:22
her. I would be breaking the law if I did that.
45:24
But let's agree to this. Let's have the person
45:28
in this crowd that does not have sin, throw the
45:32
first stone. After that happens, the rest of
45:35
y 'all knock yourself out. But just let us agree
45:37
that the first stone ought to be thrown by a
45:41
sinless person. Literally enough, there was someone
45:45
in the crowd that day that fit that bill. There
45:48
was a sinless person there. And if he would have
45:51
thrown the first stone, now I've never heard
45:54
anybody point that out in all my days of preaching.
45:57
And when I was 20 years old, the Lord came down
46:00
and dropped that in my spirit. And that's what
46:02
I knew for certain. I was like, yeah, I'm supposed
46:04
to do this because I knew that that was a significant
46:09
part of this text that I'm sure other people
46:12
have pointed out. And when I hear preaching all
46:15
the time, what gets me is when I hear the preacher
46:17
say something that I'm like, flesh and blood
46:19
did not reveal that to you. Like that Peter moment,
46:24
flesh and blood, you got that from. So the point
46:28
that I'm making there is one that I feel similarly
46:30
about. that one of the points of Job that flesh
46:34
and blood certainly did not reveal to me is sometimes
46:38
one way you can look at unmerited suffering is
46:43
maybe similarly God has been up in heaven. In
46:46
fact, if you notice, I go much deeper than that
46:48
as I continue to make this point, not just that.
46:50
And then this is the part that I had not seen
46:52
until this sermon itself is when the enemy is
46:58
going to and fro. walking among the earth. It
47:02
doesn't say this, but we can infer kind of because
47:05
of other texts and stuff that he's looking to
47:06
who he's going to mess with. And God said, have
47:10
you considered Job? So even deeper is this idea.
47:13
The enemy told God, or God knows, he's looking
47:17
to mess with somebody. And God says, well, if
47:20
you're looking to mess with someone, can I make
47:22
a suggestion? And that sometimes it's actually
47:32
because you've been doing the right thing that
47:37
God trusts you're the person who can endure this
47:40
situation and come on the other side like pure
47:44
gold. So encouraging. For the one who feels that
47:50
unmerited suffering in the moment, you know.
47:52
Yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you that Sunday. And
47:58
you may have heard this in an introduction at
48:00
the 1130 service where I mentioned, I won't say
48:02
his name now, but a pastor in our city who had
48:05
pastored a very prominent church for a long time
48:07
and had a different position. He had recently
48:12
lost, been fired from a position. He was there
48:16
visiting that Sunday actually with the district
48:17
attorney. And they had all come to Salt Lake
48:20
during election season. You know how that is.
48:23
He came to me afterwards. He was like, you have
48:25
no idea. how much I needed to hear that. You
48:28
know, I just lost my job, income problems, and
48:33
I'm trying to figure out what did I do for the
48:37
Lord to treat me like this? And he said, I really
48:40
needed to hear that. And I said, brother, I don't
48:43
know your life, but you literally may not have
48:46
done anything. It actually may be because of
48:48
how well you conducted yourself and walked. And
48:51
that on the other side of this, God is trusting
48:53
that you actually can handle it. And I said,
48:57
I just want you to imagine the preaching and
49:00
the teaching and the writing that you're going
49:03
to have because you've been through this that
49:06
you could not have had if you'd not had that
49:08
experience. Yeah, I love that you bring this
49:13
idea up that, you know, there is a saturation
49:17
of preaching. and yet sometimes there's still
49:20
something that maybe it's not a brand new thought
49:22
but it's just in the way that it's being said
49:24
or the way it's being presented that just kind
49:26
of hits different honestly and you think about
49:29
it and for me i had one of those moments listening
49:32
to this um listening to this idea of like it's
49:37
god trusting job trusting that job's faith can
49:40
withstand um i listen to that and i Like that
49:45
was a moment for me that I has completely reframed
49:48
I think a lot of the way I think of that story
49:50
So I'd love to play the clip into here you do
49:54
that so well When God brings job up to the devil
49:59
what he says to him he says have you considered?
50:03
My servant Joe The devil says, I've been going
50:07
to and fro around the earth. And God says, hold
50:11
on. I want to bring Job up for consideration.
50:14
Let me say it differently. The devil says, I've
50:16
been looking for somebody to mess with. And God
50:19
says. is job on your list i want to suggest joe
50:24
the devil says i've been looking for someone
50:27
whose life i want to turn upside down and god
50:31
says i have a suggestion i want to suggest joe
50:33
because look if you mess with the wrong person
50:36
devil you gonna mess their whole faith up if
50:39
you mess with the wrong person i'll never see
50:41
them in church again if you mess with the wrong
50:43
person they'll never say another prayer if you
50:46
mess with the wrong person they'll never sing
50:49
another song If you mess with the wrong person,
50:52
they'll never utter another word to me. But I
50:54
know Job. Job is my boy. And Job ain't going
50:58
to turn his back on me. Just because you touch
51:01
him, consider my servant Job. Which means, watch
51:08
this. The trust that appears first in the text
51:13
is not Job trusting God. It's actually God trusting
51:18
Job. What just a radical way of reframing this
51:23
story. I know I can't be the only one who sat
51:27
there just in shock like you know, I've read
51:30
this story before, and yet you were able to bring
51:32
this out. And I also love that it's this kind
51:36
of reversal of what you said the first, right?
51:38
Like you started your message by saying, can
51:40
you still trust God when you can't trace God?
51:43
And then it's this slow flip, this slow reversal
51:46
of, well, can God trust you? And just this new
51:50
way of thinking about the story was so powerful.
51:53
But I also love that you use that kind of reversal,
51:57
can God trust you, as an understanding for an
52:00
invitation for people um you know traditionally
52:03
i think in services we would call this like our
52:05
altar call moment uh it all the services building
52:09
to this moment of maybe it's an invitation to
52:12
repentance or confession or to join the church
52:15
or something and you use this idea of can god
52:18
trust you as kind of the the thing that puts
52:21
you into that moment so i'm curious how much
52:25
Were you anticipating that moment in the service?
52:29
And how much do you think, you know, that if
52:32
that was your intention, like this is where we're
52:34
ending, how much was that impacting the way that
52:37
you were developing this sermon? Sure. So extremely
52:43
intentional for me, probably more than any other
52:47
part. And this is intentional. Sermon close.
52:52
music from the band, and then the praise and
52:55
worship team coming up and singing the invitational
52:57
song, is that all of those things have to connect.
53:00
So to me, and I think last Sunday, I probably
53:03
lean this more than any other time. Most important
53:06
thing, I said this last Sunday, most important
53:07
thing I'm going to do all week is give someone
53:10
an opportunity to give their life to Jesus Christ.
53:12
Everything I've been doing all week. The sermon
53:14
preparation in this moment right now is the most
53:17
important thing I'm going to do. So there may
53:20
be parts of the preaching moment that I leave
53:24
to a bit of ambiguity. And even in this, there
53:29
are times when the Holy Spirit comes in and says,
53:31
I want to change some things up. But I am very
53:34
purposeful about my closing out. I will say this.
53:36
I feel like my weakest natural place is closing
53:41
the sermon. I think my strongest natural place
53:43
is the body and then the introduction. So I have
53:48
to be very careful not to spend so much time
53:51
on the body that I leave out the introduction.
53:54
And the introduction, I think, is also very critical.
53:55
I have different ways that I kind of introduce
53:57
a sermon. But the close for me requires the most
54:01
amount of work. And I always and most importantly,
54:05
because this is. The thing that is going to wrap
54:08
all of this up and lead someone to saying, you
54:10
know what, I've decided to make Jesus my choice.
54:13
And so for this one, absolutely. Because in this,
54:17
hopefully people are going to hear a trust that
54:21
now offers you an opportunity to show your trust
54:25
in God. God trusts you, right? God trusts you
54:28
with. your situations, with what you're going
54:30
through. He trusts you with his blessings, et
54:32
cetera, et cetera. And this trust is one that
54:35
hopefully will lead you to a point of making
54:39
a decision and being invitational. This is an
54:43
aspect of Black church that is both positive
54:46
and negative. The negative part of it is that
54:51
Sometimes people make that choice based on kind
54:54
of emotional things and how they feel at the
54:56
time and because they sit next to grandma and
54:58
stuff like that. However, that moment, that sermonic
55:03
moment and that ending sermon moment that ends
55:05
in decision is also like a really wonderful thing
55:08
just because it's public decision. We want you
55:11
to make a public commitment and confession that
55:14
you are coming to give your life to Christ. When
55:16
I first started going to... predominantly white
55:18
churches, I would think, I was like, when do
55:19
y 'all, like, when does that happen? Like, and
55:23
they say, well, you know, I was at Lutheran seminary.
55:25
So like, well, you know, people come to the office,
55:27
so they call the church. Like, y 'all don't do
55:29
any type of like invitation to Christian discipleship
55:32
or altar calling. No, no, we kind of leave that
55:34
up. And the public nature of it is an important
55:38
part for us, what we would consider responding
55:40
to the gospel. Now, here's another negative part
55:44
of it. It's a lot of times. Preachers, black
55:46
preachers will judge their preaching based on
55:49
how many people came down the aisle. And then
55:52
my words, listen, don't don't do that. Like the
55:56
sermon they heard last week, the song they heard
55:58
yesterday, the voice of God this morning. All
56:00
of that is tied into a person making that decision.
56:03
This one sermon did not do what was necessary
56:07
to help someone come. And I preach sermons that
56:09
I thought were horrible. And 15 people came down
56:12
the aisle. I preached great sermons and nobody,
56:14
or I felt like it was great and nobody came.
56:16
So we like to wrap up our conversations with
56:20
a set of questions that we do for everyone. And
56:23
the first is, what are you most proud of this
56:26
sermon when you look back at it? Yeah, so of
56:29
this sermon, I would say the going deep part
56:34
and especially that part about suffering and
56:37
about God kind of sometimes picking us out. I'm
56:43
honestly also grateful for the work of this sermon.
56:47
This sermon took some work. It took some work
56:49
to kind of get it organized and to say the things
56:52
that I wanted to say. So I would say I'm proud
56:54
about those things. Yeah, anytime that you commit
56:59
yourself to preaching Job, you're in for like
57:02
a good arm wrestling with the text. So if you
57:07
could do anything differently for this sermon,
57:10
is there anything that you would redo? So I absolutely
57:13
hate watching myself preach, mostly because I
57:17
get excited and I probably get overly excited
57:20
at home preaching. And so sometimes I wish I
57:23
could calm down. And I wasn't as demonstrative.
57:26
That demonstrative nature also sometimes leads
57:28
me into preaching too fast. And so I do sometimes
57:33
wish that I had a slower cadence and I've been
57:35
trying to slow myself down recently. There's
57:39
a cadence that exists in that, you know, that
57:42
type of preaching style. Whenever I watch myself,
57:46
I just think to myself, you need to slow down.
57:49
And I will sometimes slow down during the sermon.
57:52
Like I'll find and catch myself. But usually
57:54
if it starts to feel good to me, then it's hard
57:58
for me to, it's hard for me to kind of slow down,
58:01
quiet down and just, yeah. Well, I loved your
58:04
cadence and speed. And, but I do think I find
58:08
that too, for me, like I don't enjoy watching
58:10
and yet those, those nonverbal or. stylistic
58:15
or present more like in presentation rather than
58:18
content that's where i see it when i watch it
58:21
and i know my people see it and then you go oh
58:23
yeah those are things i gotta work on so all
58:26
the time our final question and thank you so
58:29
much for your time and your experience and your
58:32
wisdom it's been a blast um i would like to ask
58:35
why why do you think preaching matters today
58:38
yeah so God is sovereign. If God wanted to, preaching
58:47
could happen like this. God could send angels
58:49
down to every church on Sunday. And an angel
58:52
could stand up. And an angel would get everything
58:55
perfect. The preaching would be perfect. The
58:58
word would be perfect. The theology would be
58:59
perfect. The diction would be perfect. The examples
59:01
would be perfect. What do you think about this?
59:03
God is so much God. Honestly, if God wanted to,
59:05
God could subdivide himself or herself into parts
59:08
and show up. God could do it. But God has decided
59:12
in God's infinite wisdom to put this in us. I
59:18
want an imperfect vehicle. I want a jar of clay.
59:21
I want an earthen vessel to be responsible for
59:25
preaching the gospel. God is brilliant. We can't
59:28
mess with God. God knows exactly what God is
59:29
doing. And the imperfectness of the preacher,
59:35
to me, is the very thing. that makes preaching
59:40
important and necessary. And I'd say now more
59:44
than ever, we need people who can stand up in
59:50
front of people just like themselves, dealing
59:53
with the very same things they're doing. There's
59:55
an old spiritual that says that I have a song
59:58
that the angels cannot sing, right? Because angels
1:00:01
ain't been through what I've been through. So
1:00:03
why do I not want an angel to come preach to
1:00:04
me every Sunday? Angels don't know what I'm going
1:00:06
through. But this person does. And so someone
1:00:09
who knows my experience, similar experience,
1:00:12
been through what I've been through, standing
1:00:13
up and preaching the gospel, is, I think, exactly
1:00:16
what is needed in the world especially today.
1:00:19
And I can't see a time when that won't be so,
1:00:23
when we won't yearn to hear God's word through
1:00:28
earthen vessels. Well, thank you so much for
1:00:34
sharing with us. It was a joy to listen to you
1:00:37
preach and to get to talk with you more about
1:00:40
it. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you
1:00:43
so much for having me. We hope you enjoyed our
1:00:50
conversation with Reverend Sean R. James. If
1:00:53
you'd like to listen to Sean's full sermon or
1:00:54
keep up with the work he's doing, you can follow
1:00:56
him through the links posted in our show notes.
1:00:59
If you liked this episode, please share and subscribe
1:01:02
and tell your friends. And if you have questions
1:01:04
for us or recommendations for guests we should
1:01:07
bring on, you can email us at preacher handshake
1:01:09
at gmail .com. Thanks for listening.