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Spiral Impact with Karen Valencic · Humanity Working

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there's a lot of misconceptions around the word power.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times people think, well, they have the power, they have it.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what I like to tell people is power is something that you have individually.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have it's not about your size, it's not about your position or your title.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it really comes down to how you engage in the world.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thrilled to be joined today by Cam Valensic, author of the book Spiral Impact: The Power to Get It Done with Grace, in what is now called the Black Belt Edition, something we'll get into today.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the podcast.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm delighted to be here, Paul.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first off, really interesting, thought-provoking book.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: We had the podcast uh recording scheduled a while back.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I read the book back then, and I gotta tell you, some of the themes in it have stuck with me.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let's start with the subtitle, The Power to Get It Done with Grace.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you talk quite a bit about conflict in the book.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you define conflict?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you think individuals and teams mishandle conflict?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful question.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how I define conflict, I you know, I'm an engineer by background, and I kind of go to basic physics.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And conflict by definition is to push together.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And conflict, that's push together.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that happens when there's differences of personality, ideas, perspectives.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And what's important about conflict is you must have it to create.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens so often, and when people think about conflict, they often think of destructive conflict.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I when I work with people, I make a huge distinction of the fact that we need to have conflict.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I always have people push, take their fists together and push and feel that tension.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what makes the difference between that destructive and creative or innovative conflict is how much, how fast, how long, how hard that pushes.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And depending on the people involved, it can vary.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: But so often what we people think is that we don't want to have any disagreements.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to express contrary opinions, and that's actually the exact opposite of what we need to have.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a gift that we have conflict, and it's where all creation comes from, it's where all innovation comes from is that that conflict that we have, where there's something that that's not like what we want it to be.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does actually.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's actually just before we before we leave that, um, it strikes me in listening to you that there's really kind of like three areas where conflict can happen.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: So the first would be internal.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got like internal conflict with yourself.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: The second could be conflict between two people, and then the third can be this sort of broader conflict that's happening within teams.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: So let's go through each of those individuals.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with like this internal conflict.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you take the fact we we all have times where we're conflicted internally and so on?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: How do you go about addressing that in a way that that is?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sure.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: That that's something that I think we all deal with.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, should I say something?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Should I not say something?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Should I do this?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Should I do that?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's something we can get really stuck in in terms of our our momentum forward if we've got that internal conflict.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and so when I work when I work with people and and myself, is you know, we really got to look at our values, we've got to learn how to ask ourselves questions and and really think about what's our overall intent.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And those things can help give us clarity in terms of how do we solve this.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my work is grounded in the martial art of Aikido, and there's a big part of that, which, you know, now we talk about mindfulness and emotional intelligence.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And for the past three decades, you know, I've talked about centering, which is a martial arts term for really finding that internal, external balance within ourselves.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the beautiful thing about that is it gives us clarity, it gives us calm.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like being in the eye of the storm.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, typically what happens, there's a very calm eye in the middle of a hurricane or a tornado.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And where where I want to be is I want to be in that calm eye rather than those outer rings, because that's where I have the ability to enter in with clarity in terms of what do I want to say?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, who am I, and how do I navigate this turbulence?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's those are all really important parts of it.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: But internal conflict is, I think, something so many people deal with.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I when I talk about um, when I ask people what are what prevents them from speaking up when they have a differing opinion, it's often I'm not sure how to say it without creating offense.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure, I'm you know, my confidence isn't real high that what I'm about to say is is is right or whatever that is.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's all those things.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I I often coach people, and for myself, when I'm unsure, I usually enter in centered and with a question, a question so that I can kind of get a feel for um where what's the environment?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's such an important thing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So often we want to enter in with stating this is this is fact, this is where I am.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas oftentimes, if you can enter in with a a question, open-ended question, you can begin to learn what that environment's like, so you can then really respond appropriately.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: What we've seen in in our work is that oftentimes people that feel in internally conflicted, they look at other people and they think, oh man, they those other people really seem to have it to get it together.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they seem to think that like internal conflict is something that just they feel.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: But in reality, we all feel it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a question as to how we approach the fact that we're internally conflicted.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that centering practice is is a huge aspect of it because it allows you to almost like observe the conflict that you're feeling and then take action based on it so that you can uh you can approach the world in a uh in a more focused way.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I I also I you know I think there's those three components, which is the centering, which gives you that perspective.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's being willing to enter in with a question rather than with the answer, and then be really clear in terms of what's the intent.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the intent I think people can get really confused about.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: The intention I always define as when you think about the conflict, what is it that you want that you don't have that's not dependent on another person because of this conflict?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And let me give you an example.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was working with a group recently, and and there was a woman who was in the um because let's see, she was in customer service.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she told me, she said, you know, I really have a problem with the with the um with our design group because I I I get frustrated because they're not helping me with these customers.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, what is it that you want?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is the conflict?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Well, I want them to know how I feel.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, think about that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's not really the conflict.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: The conflict is providing great customer service.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when you can start that conversation out with, you know, my, you know, what I really want is to provide stellar customer service to our customers.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really like to have is a conversation of how we can make this handle more smoothly.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is a that's a place where you can start to create solutions, and it's not difficult.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you if my my deal is you got to know how I feel, um, that always creates some more resistance because most people don't know what to do with your feelings.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's a higher level, a deeper connection.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that it's not important because it it is, but it's not typically if you've got a conflict, it's unless you have really, really solid, good relationships, it's not something that promotes more understanding, because that's probably the next conversation or the next conversation.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that leads us on almost to like that second category concrete conflict that I was talking about, which is this sort of interpersonal conflict.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And let's and let's let's uh deal with a sort of one-to-one interpersonal conflict.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, sometimes that can be blatantly obvious, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Two people that are just like hammer and tongue against each other.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it can be a one-off conflict, but sometimes it can be it can feel almost like it's it's uh intractable.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: You give a great example in the book um of these of these two guys that work together and they're always fighting with each other, and then you end up working with each of those uh individuals together to resolve that, not in a way that just has them pretend that the conflict doesn't exist or just you know step back or just stop talking to each other, but something that's that's more uh that's more meaningful from that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Can you kind of walk us through that again?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, you know, it's interesting because and this might bleed a little bit into um group conflict because it again it kind of gets back to the same, which is I have I have worked with so many people, individuals one-on-one, and actually teams that are at width's end, and they will call me up and say, you know, we have tried everything, and we cannot get past this.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, of course I'll say, Well, what have you tried?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And usually what people try is they they beat the dead horse of the issue.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: People get involved in what the issue is, and it's like you did this, I can't, you know, it's it's the it's the issue.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I never start with the issue.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the elephant, the elephant in the room.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: You don't you talk about that?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and I never start with the issue because when you do that, you you you know, that's typically people's position.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't get back to intent.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really I talk about three levels of intent.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there's the bigger picture of what we're trying to accomplish, like what I just mentioned with the woman in customer service.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: We want to provide great customer service.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that that big picture can be even bigger than that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there's the in the immediate, what do I, what do my, what's my intention right now?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: My intention is is hey, I'd really like to have, you know, I'd really like so we can move forward with this.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then really important is that um deeper personal intention.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: What do you carry with you in terms of your values?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my just for an example, my deeper personal intention is to honor myself and others as much as I can.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that is that's what happens is as I get really clear on what my intent is.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I think a lot of times people get so frustrated, and what they want to do is they want to beat up the other person and make them suffer.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've all heard those things, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's something I also like to, you know, we're in a political climate right now, and I don't want to get into politics, but I do want to say so often people will say, I'm not even gonna talk to that person because they they will never change.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: That statement right there is is a beautiful statement from the standpoint, because I always come back and say, but will you?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you enter into the conversation with your intent to change them, see, that's the intention that becomes about them.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: If your intention is about, I really want to create a great relationship here so we can actually explore the best ideas and create connection to solve problems, that's a whole different intention.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: You see, all so often, and I tell you, I have had some amazing relationships and conversations with people who are diametrically opposed to my viewpoints.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's always about being interested in how they see things and learning about without judging them and without the intent to change them.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the the beautiful thing about that is when you can enter into without the intent to change them, oftentimes they will change.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're not, you know, again, it gets back to this pushing thing.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like you you get stuck in this conflict and we're pushing each other.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you know, in my my work, um, when I work in person with people, I love it because you know, people can just feel what that feels like to stop pushing and do what I call which is spiral.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's palatable that you can feel that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, well, how do you do that?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's not necessarily obvious all the time, and that's why I have a whole book written about it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: But but it but it is, it's it's it's about intent, you know, because in something I always say is, you know, the three major components of spiral impact are you know, focused energy or centering.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's about learning, about asking questions, and it's about intention.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And those three together, one creates that stable center, one creates the movement around that center for learning, and the other creates a direction.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you know, if you take any one of those out, you have something really wobbly that's probably just going in in circles around things.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you if if people can visualize that, that might be a little too abstract.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it might, but we'll get into the theory of some of that in a little bit.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, we'll help you people be able to do that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess just before we leave this area of conflict, just because it's so interesting and I think so difficult for a lot of people.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are a couple of things that you alluded to there, which is interesting.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I can almost like feel the people in the audience going, but what if I'm right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what if I must win?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh things of that nature.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a huge aspect to this that's almost like a mindset that needs to come uh come forth initially, which we often talk about with teams, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which is you have to, there's one thing you have to accept going in, which is that nobody, nobody is a hundred percent right on everything, and nobody is a hundred percent wrong on everything, right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you don't if if you can't if if you can't have that sort of like underlying element of humility, the the smashing that you you might you might think you're a hundred percent right about something, but you're gonna be wrong on the edges about some aspect of this.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: There is some opportunity for you to learn and grow through every interaction.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second aspect, of course, of this isn't this, particularly when you get into group dynamics, is that and you mentioned this right at the start, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: The idea that people have different opinions in the group, the idea that people are um that to a certain extent are pushing against each other, as you pointed out right at the start of this, that is what creates innovation.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: That what is what makes the the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And in order for us to be able to really thrive as teams, we need diverse points of view, we need diverse ways of looking at the world.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that we need to eliminate the conflict, we need to maximize the benefit of the conflict.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so when you get into these complex team dynamics, are there specific things that you that you would do differently when you're working with, say, two people versus when you work with a uh with a team?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if so, what would those be?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and absolutely I do.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when I work with teams, with a team, I often, well, you know, I always start by learning more about them and what their dynamics are.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's a pretty high conflict thing, I oftentimes will have a meeting with each person.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if if I can't do that, I'll do some kind of really specific survey that I've conducted myself where I can really kind of understand where their viewpoints are.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love to be able to have those one-on-one conversations so I can create trust.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's such an important part.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I bring people together, I I always like to educate them about what is conflict and how to understand it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I also am a big proponent of using everything disc.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I love Wiley's Everything Disc.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: They have one that's very specific to conflict.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: That when I first saw it, I thought, oh, they're gonna put me out of business because this is such a great tool.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it really goes into the thoughts people have and and all those kinds of things.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I I have found there's not that's not gonna replace me totally.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but but really having some self-awareness.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: But then I I get people in a mode and I actually uh I'll actually create like what I is it's like a wheel or a map, and I'll have, depending on the size of the group, and I have done this with over with a couple hundred people, and I've done it with five.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what I do is I I map out the stakeholders of whatever, you know, whatever they're dealing with, and whatever their objective is, I put in the center in the hub.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ask them to identify the stakeholders.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I do is I take people and I assign them to a stakeholder that is not them.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is not them.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask them to think about from their perspective what are their needs and what are their fears.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're getting out of their own part of this, and they're they're they're considering the other group from that perspective.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the beautiful thing about that is then we come back together and we we create this map, and it's such a fantastic way of acknowledging each part of the team or each part of the system or whatever that is.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's so magical because again, people aren't pitted against each other and we're just looking at, okay, so if I were, if I were the customer, or if I were management, or if I were, you know, the lab tech, what you know, how would I see this and what would I need?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the conversations that come out of those things for me have always been very productive.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, you know, you can just feel the connections happening and the energy building and the enthusiasm building.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and it and I tell you, it is, I I love that aspect of my work.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just really love it when people can get the fact that they don't have to struggle, they don't have to beat somebody up to really get some great solutions and and they're not gonna lose out on anything.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they they and and it's I've been, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna say I had someone over the weekend say, well, yeah, but terrorists won't do this.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I we'll we'll wait for the terrorists, but you know, if we can't do it in our home, if we can't resolve things in our home or on our team, you know, how do we how are we gonna do it on the world stage?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So so but but yeah, I have seen some amazing things happen.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I worked with a a company that had merged, they had merged several years ago, and I I was working with departments between the merged groups, and and there was a lot of animosity, tons of animosity.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I brought them together, you know, there's moments, I don't know if you experience this, Paul, but there's moments when I'm working with a group where there's like this time standstill and somebody says something, and it's like, oh, you guys are a lot like us.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all these years we've had this opinion of you, but when we we can sit and we can talk about again what matters, um, you guys are a lot like us.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's I think that's such that's so magical when that happens.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's that's one of the re the realizations that people come to.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that people come to when they get together in these types of team settings is they start to understand what is the unique value that they can bring as a as a team member to the team.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the other people start to see that as well.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um in a in a sports setting, I remember uh so you probably don't know, you might know who Gary Neville is.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about other things other than uh uh other than uh British football these days.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: But he was in but he was in uh he was in the Manchester United football team, and he was in there when like David Beckham was in there and Cristiano Ronaldo was in there, and all these like star players were in there.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he said something relatively recently, which is like every football team would love to have a Cristiano Cristiano Ronaldo or a David Beckham, but every football team also needs a Gary Neville, because he was kind of like a just a sort of journeyman defender who kind of did things, but like he had to be there in order to create the stability for the team to allow those flair players to do whatever it was that they were doing.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the magic of that team at that period, which was a very, very high performing team, is that every team member understood not just the value that Cristiano Ronaldo and David Beckham brought, but they understood the value that a Gary Neville brought.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Including him, including he himself.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you can get teams from a point where it's not like everybody is trying, is competing to be the star player, but every team member is very comfortable in the role that they are in and they value themselves in that role and the other people value them in that role.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now all of a sudden everybody's sort of pushing to that sort of broader team goal.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: And both of those things can happen, what you described and what I just described.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And when you when you really start to bring teams together and help people understand how they work together to produce this laughter goal.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's true it's truly exciting.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I have had situations with teams too where there seemed to be a star player, or may not be in a position that's different than everybody else, but somebody that seems like a really high performer.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've had this happen twice where that when we've gone through what we do, a person has kind of started looking at what is important to them and where their strengths are and what brings them to life.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they decide to leave.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times what's interesting when that person leaves, it raises the whole team.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I the first time that happened, I thought, oh crap.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And but but actually it was just like it was beautiful because with that void there, it gave space for other people to rise.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, that is such exciting, that's such exciting stuff.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so exciting.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Teams are complicated, aren't they?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, Matt here.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the producer of Humanity Working, and I really don't like mid-roll ads as a podcast listener, but it turns out that they actually serve a purpose.
• 23:38
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• 23:43
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• 24:01
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• 24:21
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• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You ready to pay attention again?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so let's uh let's uh we've we've done, if you like, the subtitle of uh of your book, which is the the power to get it done with grace and talked about conflict quite a bit.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's sort of get onto the title piece of it, the spiral impact itself.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I know that uh um the whole theory about you kind of almost like had your Archimedes uh aha moment, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: The the whole theory of this um came from bringing together two fields that you're expert in, so Aikido and human behaviors in the workplace.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So briefly, if you could kind of explain the origin and what you mean conceptually by spiral impact, and then we'll get into the four quadrants.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so let me start with power with grace.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I think that there's a lot of misconceptions around the word power.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times people think, well, they have the power, they have it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what I like to tell people is power is something that you have individually.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have it's not about your size, it's not about your position or your title.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it really comes down to how you engage in the world.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and I define the difference between power and force.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so often, and and I'm just gonna, you know, briefly, and this is basic physics, but power is rotational.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the spiral comes in.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And force is a straight line.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Very much the difference between a hammer and a nail and a screw and a screwdriver.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a hammer and a nail is force, and you gotta keep on hitting it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what that's when people are in big conflict and they keep, they keep trying to hash it out, and they're not getting anywhere because they're using force.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And power is rotational, and again, anybody can do that as long as they have they understand the skill to do that.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so that's what spiral the model of spiral impact is really about, having power with grace.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I when I wrote the book, I actually was thinking, should I have a power with ease, or you know, is grace because I don't mean it from a religious standpoint, although if that's people's orientation, it certainly fits.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it's that power with where you've got the honor.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, honor and respect are such important parts of living as an individual and as you know, workplace, of having people that are empowered, and there is that grace.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then so spiral impact, I the spiral became a model, and then I chose the word impact because and sometimes I wonder if it was the right word in some ways, because you know, the Aikido is the art of peace or the art of reconciliation.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so, impact can, and as a matter of fact, do you see swords in my background?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had someone say, How do swords fit in with this peaceful resolution?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a little, there may seem a little bit of conflict in that visual, but impact is really about getting results.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get some results?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, and and for me, again, as an engineer and as a person that's hired as a consultant, I want people to get results.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we just go in and feel good and have a nice conversation, that's a wonderful thing.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I really am all about how do we get the results, the intention uh that you want to get in your business.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where spiral impact comes from.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the power with grace is is is really the methodology.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how how do we do this?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you've seen Aikido, when I practice Aikido and it's really good Aikido, the the person whoever attacks you or provides the energy, they it's just it doesn't hurt them if it's done well.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of Aikido that's not done well, I should say that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it just feels like somebody has has just very softly picked you up and laid you down on the ground.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's really very graceful.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't be yanking people around or hurting people.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the swords, the swords in the background, aikido actually came out of a lot of other martial arts.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the sword is one of those things.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you've got to this when we practice with swords and joes, when you when you add more length in there, every little movement is amplified.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so creating that sensitivity so that even when things are amplified, you have that result.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's where that comes from.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, for those of us, uh for those of you that are listening on audio, reminder, we do have the we do do these on YouTube as well.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you should definitely check out the YouTube version of this uh uh of this episode so you can see Karen's very cool background.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I actually teach Aikido in this space too, so which is fun.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's yeah.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: That is awesome.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so um, so yeah, that's a great example of uh sort of like the the conceptually what uh what the spiral thing is, but some real some real things come out of that.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um briefly talk us through the four uh quadrants, and then I want to get into sort of practical ways in which uh things like um quadrant switching can happen, which I think is what was one of the most biggest aha moments for me.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: But before we get to that, talk about the talk about those.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that so if you can imagine, and actually um the picture of my book has this graphic on the front, and there's there's four quadrants, and a spiral goes between goes, kind of cuts across them.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the four quadrants are um, and they're not in a specific order, actually.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I and it's hard and it's hard not to put them in an order, but there's um what I call focused energy, which is you know, who who are you?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: How do you show up?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are you centered and calm?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have perspective?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Are you whacked out because you're hungover and you've eaten awful things for breakfast?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so your energy is how you show up.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I the longer I live, I know that's so keenly important.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another of the quadrants is what I call the knowledge quadrant.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the knowledge, the knowledge boils down to turning your statements into questions, acknowledgements, or both.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a general aspect, but but the the theme is is getting, you know, really beginning to learn about the other person, about yourself, and about the team that you're on.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are things that we can do through asking questions, through like disk assessment, through dialogue with your group.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are those are ways of really increasing your knowledge.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then another another quadrant, which is the third one I'm mentioning, although it's not the third, it's just the third.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that would be it, that would be intention.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so in in the intention quadrant, you know, I look at this, I think I mentioned earlier, and intention is something that I think is most often left out of conflict resolution techniques.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: But the intention is again, bigger picture, longer term, what am I trying to accomplish?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's in the immediate, and and I coach people on thinking about well, what's your intention with the next thing you're gonna say?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: What's the intention of that email that you're gonna write?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when people start getting really conscious about thinking through intent before they speak and communicate, it's very powerful.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I have found myself editing myself a lot, and a lot of times I won't say something because the intent's not there in a way I want it to be.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, as I mentioned before, that deeper personal in intention also I look at language.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are the words that we're using?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've been doing this work for three decades, and I always like to say, I've changed this work a lot over those three decades.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't do things that a lot of people do because I find them very hard for people to grasp, like I statements.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: We might get there, but that to me is a more complex.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that it doesn't work, it's not easy for people to do.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I look at language and and I and my model actually is something that anybody can easily go for and apply immediately.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but I look at languages, I also look at you know, vision and values and that type of thing.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the final the final quadrant is support.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that support is, you know, like you know, Paul, you're doing, you're supporting people through doing this podcast, through the work you're doing with Billion Minds, and and I do, you know, same thing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Who's your support?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do you support yourself with with journaling, with, with meditation, with with you know, what are what are the tools that you have and the people that you have to support yourself?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so thinking through all four of those quadrants is is keen.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I was I was teaching um conflict, what I call um using conflict creatively, and and I I had was practicing Aikido one night on the mat, and all of a sudden I I was just thinking, I felt like I was missing something in what I was teaching.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, what is it that people want to, what do they want to do in their life?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they everybody wants to do what they love and do it with some ease and grace.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's just what people want to do.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's what got me thinking, well, what do they need to be able to do that?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where those four fall quadrants fell out, which is they need, you know, they need knowledge, they need focused energy, they need support, and they need intent.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets down to basic those four things.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: So well, you hinted at something that I actually wanted to to jump in on there, actually, which is that I think when folks read the book, and I actually would like if if if the concepts in here are interesting to you, I would actually go and this would be one where I would actually read it cover to cover because I think that it is it's it's important that you do that to gain kind of like a complete understanding of everything.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um when I did that, um, one of the things that I was struck by was was the completeness actually of it.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because initially when I, for example, I saw that, I was thinking, well, what about like tools and things?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden you realize, well, actually, tools are just support, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Tools are which which you point out in the book, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, support could be a Google Doctor.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it and so once once you start to think about it in that way, you start to realize that that what you've created here is a sort of like self-sustaining view of any uh of any challenge that you might face, which is really impressive.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say um the the question that occurred to me out of that is as you're working with people on a day-to-day basis, we'll get into the quadrant switching thing in a moment here, but do you find that for certain people they're just kind of lacking in one of those quadrants systemically, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: As in they get they kind of nail these other three, but they don't have enough support, or they kind of nail these uh uh three of them, but they don't develop a love not enough knowledge, or maybe they don't focus on being centered enough.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a do some people, do they just sort of like have a gap in one area that you can just really focus with them on plugging that gap and then everything else comes from that?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you know, that's such a fantastic question.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say I have worked with people that have I've worked with people that definitely have the whole focused energy, the lack of emotional intelligence and center that, and and honestly, I don't always start right there, but that's something that um so when people can kind of slow down and come back to themselves, that's a huge, huge, huge thing.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing that I find consistently when I particularly when I go into organizations, is the is the lack of clear intention.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and when I talk about in clear intention, I mean it based as I had described it, which is what is it that you want that you don't have because of this that's not dependent on somebody else doing something or you know, it's it's you know, I want to, and oftentimes I use the analogy of, you know, if I have this conflict and I want things to be done the blue way, and you want it to be done the green way, and we're just committed to our positions on that, um, that is where that's where we are at loggerheads.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact is, is we've lacked intention there.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I can, and that's where I can direct people to, well, what are you really trying to accomplish that's not about either of those positions?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it all gets back to, gosh, we want to be cutting edge in the area of healthcare.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: We want to invent the next big thing.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So when people can get off their positions on that, because you know, you had mentioned before that people are right.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I don't know if it's because I've lived so long, but I mean, I would invite all your listeners to think about is there something you used to feel so strongly about that you you feel the opposite way now?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know in my life, I certainly do.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have really um eaten the humble pie a number of times on positions that I had.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I find now I have my viewpoints and I have what my preferences, but I'm always open because I think curiosity and that willingness to explore and change is something that's really enlivening.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm hoping, you know, that I continue to continue to set aside things that I I hold tightly right now.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's where, you know, this whole model actually I feel like has room for, you know, changing your mind and to stay with the same idea for your whole career.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, I have taken things out of this course that, you know, are pretty a lot of other people would say you got to do that.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: The way I teach feedback is probably different from a lot of people.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I teach feedback where you start, you know, you you're thinking about intent and and you're also not just your own intent, but the person you're giving feedback to.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're you're starting with questions because you know, just because you have this viewpoint that they're this or they're that, you don't have any idea what the environment they're living in ha is.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so when if you don't really understand that, you could just really mess up a relationship because you've got to rush in with your opinion about their performance.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't advise that because it's it's a way of disengaging people in a way that's I don't think necessary to get the same result.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um All right, let's get on to what in a sense might be um the most uh impactful piece, at least for me as a as a as a reader of this, which is this concept of the quadrant shifting that I've alluded to a couple of times already.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so talk me through the concept.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have these four quadrants, the focused energy, the knowledge, the intention, and support.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the idea of quadrant shifting is so maybe I want to start out with getting really clear, getting my physical and emotional and my spiritual self really aligned, so I'm really centered and I have perspective.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that so I do that.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then then I'm thinking, okay, so I'm in a quadrant shift, and you know, and these aren't in any order.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a quadrant shift because now what I want to do is I want to ask some questions so I can really begin to understand.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, tell me more about how that works for you.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's your experience with that?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because now I'm becoming curious.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to learn about that situation.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, really I'm intrigued.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know more.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then the intention is, and and again, I might quadrant shift to the intention before I go to the questions because I really want to understand and learn um what your viewpoint is because I respect you and I want to, I really want to, I really want to make sure that we have covered all the basis on this thing.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so that and so then the support might be, you know, I have a couple colleagues of mine that I consider trusted advisors.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they're people that I can call and I can say, I just need someone to hear me out loud about this, and and just so I can talk out loud.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And those two people are really good about asking me questions for clarity.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're not they they're really good about not jumping in and problem solving for me.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I really want is someone that that can really help me reflect on that.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that's a beautiful way to end it.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate the conversation today, Karen, and uh, I'm sure our audience will as well.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 42:21
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• 42:25
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• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.