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What I've Learnt - Sophie Walker · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Nearly 300,000 women give birth in Australia each year, and one-third of them describe their birth experience as seriously traumatic.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I wish someone had told me is the most common phrase for women after they give birth for the first time.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sophie Walker's groundbreaking new book, The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth, is out this month.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Author of Australian Birth Stories, Sophie is a mum of three with a master's in public health.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: In 2017, Sophie Walker launched her business from the back of her Nissan X Trail.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: In five years, it's grown to a million-dollar empire.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Since the podcast launched, it's had over 10 million downloads.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think 11 million as of this week.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Episodes now clock upwards of 30,000 downloads and has and it's been shared over 350 women's birthing stories, including Taria Pitt, Zoe Foster Blake, Ash London, Steph Claire Smith, and Emma Isaacs.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: It has a wait list of 5,000 women who want to share their stories, and 146,000 mothers, mothers to be, and midwives now form Sophie's online community.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's endorsed by the Australian College of Midwives.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: The podcast is nationally recognised as an education tool and is used as a certified professional development resource for student midwives across Australia.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Sophie's motivation comes from personal experience.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Her first birth was traumatic.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: A long labour and force of assisted birth resulted in a post-parton hemorrhage and pelvic floor trauma.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: When she fell pregnant for the second time, she was fiercely determined to do things differently.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: She listened to every birth podcast, watched every birth documentary, read every book, and armed herself with birth skills.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Her second birth was positive, empowering, and redemptive, and it became the first ever episode on the podcast.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: While a new generation of mothers are desperate for stories of conception, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, and breastfeeding.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: After years of pandemic isolation and with one-third of Australian women describing their birth experience as traumatic, pregnant mothers and those trying to conceive are hungry for tips, tricks, and first-hand accounts of birth.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: They want to know how to prepare, what their options are, and how they can navigate the challenge of labour with birth skills.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: And they want to learn from the wisdom of women's birth stories.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: For Sophie, education is the secret weapon against birth trauma.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: She believes every woman has the right to a positive birth experience.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Sophie, so thrilled to have you join us on the What I Learn podcast to talk about your incredible journey writing this book and also just the research that you've uncovered on your path.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Where do we begin in terms of how was this not done before?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how nobody's ever done this.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what inspired you to go and I suppose research this extraordinary information that's come to light?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: What is it, 300,000 birthing stories?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: 300,000 women give birth in Australia each year, and one third of them describe their birth experience as traumatic.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's that's a lot of trauma.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's huge.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you so much for having me.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I guess I had I've got three um boys myself.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my first birth experience, and I would say that I fall into that category of one in three.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that that birth really caught me by surprise, and it it led me to kind of really immerse myself in further birth education, and I really consumed as many birth stories as I could.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time in 2017, there was really only podcasts weren't a big deal here in Australia at that point.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the content that I was able to find was all sort of American-based or English-based.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think after my second birth was such a positive experience, I thought, oh, just almost for fun with a girlfriend, I said, oh, I should just do my own podcast, having no kind of tech experience.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was working in healthcare.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just followed a YouTube and set up a podcast and did my birth story and my sister and some close friends, and had no idea it would evolve in the way that it has over the last sort of six or so years.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the podcast has just reached 11 million downloads.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I definitely filled a void.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And how many people wanted to express how they were feeling and the journey they'd been on?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you've tapped into that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And as a podcaster myself, I know the power of the podcast, and it's quite an exciting, and I suppose the independence of that platform is what's so wonderful.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you've really tapped that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it started organically, really, without a strategy, which I really like, which is similar to how I started, and then it grows and you develop this wonderful community.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so how did that, how did that, I suppose, escalation start to really what was the turning point?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think the fact that it did grow kind of gradually and organically helped because I think if I'd thought at the time, oh, I'm gonna have to grow this community, I'm gonna have to sell ads and make courses and write a book, I would have thought, oh no, that's too hard.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just stay in my part-time job and I'll work under somebody else and have some key guidelines of what my expectations are.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think um I sort of learnt along the way.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I shifted in the beginning, I was listening still to birth stories.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then once I started the podcast, I started listening to business podcasts and thought, okay, I've got to learn the ropes here.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think I learned along the way that a good way to kind of grow the audience would be to interview people of um that have their own community.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached out sort of initially to a few influencers.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I started my marketing on Instagram, so some kind of mum bloggers that I thought people would be curious.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, because no one was really sharing their birth stories widely, there was all this kind of new material and another side to people that they perhaps hadn't had the opportunity to get to know.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very thankful in that I just kind of emailed these people, cold turkey, and said, Oh, would you be interested in coming on my podcast and sharing your birth story?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like every woman I've come across has said yes, because there's a real cathartic benefit in sharing it and documenting it and trying to help other women.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really how it grew momentum quite quickly.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved into other kind of somewhat strategic tactics and kind of interviewed women that had big Facebook communities in the birth space.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, well, if I interview those, then they'll share their story to a whole lot of women who are really curious in this area.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I think it just took on a life of its own.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And through word of mouth, as soon as I feel like now, as soon as people are pregnant, they're like, Are you listening to Australian birth stories?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: So now it kind of does its own thing with my super fans out there.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: But um, that's kind of initially how I got the ball rolling.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think what's interesting is that you created a community, but you also gave people a voice and a platform in an arena that was, as you say, like the Facebook, the private Facebook uh communities, they have a they're great because everybody can can share stories.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: But what this did was take it really to another level where people who might not be members of anything could actually jump on board as well, which I think is really important.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And also it there's a lot of trust involved.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know, even with what I do, the same thing.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: People have to trust that they're being held and that they can be confident that they can share their story in a safe space, I suppose.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, something that you were clearly aware of doing and confident to do.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how how challenging was that to create the, you know, to get the parameters?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like for me, it's what I've learned.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's very clear.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: What have I learned and how's that changed me?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: How can I help others?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very, you know, I suppose broad but in some ways specific tenant.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas, and in some ways you had a very similar notion, which is every woman who's had a baby would love to share their story, but they have to trust who they're sharing it with because it's very intimate, actually, what you yeah, you know.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a therapy session that people come to get to listen to.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love Esther Perel's work, so I love listening to her for it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: My mum's a psychologist, so and I've had plenty of therapy, myself, individual therapy.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I'm acutely aware of that dynamic of really actively listening to vulnerable um stories and having been on both sides of that conversation.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think actually you'll find in a lot of my episodes, I don't actually speak a lot because I think once once a guest kind of finds their groove and gets over their kind of first five minutes of nerves, they just take themselves right back to that day and and are able to kind of share their story in a really detailed way.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I definitely kind of probe with more for more detail in certain points, but often when I'm thinking of a question to ask, I hold back a little bit, they kind of offer that up themselves.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I've kind of learned um that technique just over the years.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I feel too nervous to go and listen to the very first episodes because I I really thought no one would be listening.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um I relate to that so much, I really do.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: I relate to that so much.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: My first interview is with Deborah Lee Finesse on my podcast, and I remember thinking, well, I know people are going to want to listen to what she said, but uh, can I actually do this?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that was four years ago too.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I relate to that notion of just stepping slowly and not necessarily so strategically.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you got more strategic in time.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: But to the core of your uh, I suppose the essence of what you're you're doing is also trying to change the dialogue, but also change the way that some of it's actually become an actionable message, not just here's my story, but how can I change the way that some of this stuff is addressed?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, you talk about Australia's birthing education system and it needs a dramatic overhaul, which I totally agree with.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So suddenly you become actually somebody with a mission.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: And your your listeners, I am assume, many are driving a similar mission.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you talk about increased funding for midwifery, increased access to maternal assisted cesarean, scrapping the 12-week taboo, uh, increasing visibility of miscarriage, dealing with the grief of an early pregnancy loss, fertility and birth privilege.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of topics that you cover.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: How are you are you getting traction on those?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And what, I mean, obviously there's a lot there.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: What's a standout for you or some of the standout issues?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's been a real mindset shift for me because I've really tried to not give my opinion for so many years.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I want it to be a safe place where everyone from all walks of life with different birthing experiences feels like their story is valid and not and not judged.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I've deliberately not kind of voiced my opinions.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yet over the last few years, as the community's grown so strong, and then with more recent work, I'm getting more kind of media attention.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've now kind of realized, and I'm sort of inadvertently tapping into my public health degree and the kind of that, yeah, that kind of responsibility to then advocate for change.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: If if we all know what the kind of gold standard of care and access should be, um, I really am now trying to channel all those stories and all this trust that people have given me.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've got over 5,000 birth story applications.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got so much content, detailed content of like location and type of birth and private, public, all that sort of stuff.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I now need to kind of take that to another level and really advocate for change.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've just kind of it's kind of coincidental in when the books come out, but we've suddenly had a whole lot of maternity um hospitals closing.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um so now I'm really trying to use the spotlight from the books attention to really kind of get, yeah, more kind of just everyday people realizing that really this is a huge, huge problem.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And just this morning, another hospital in um Tasmania closed down, and it's like, well, these women now have to drive four hours to get care.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that we, you know, we're in a first world country and it's we've got Medicare and we've got all these things, it's not good enough.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And why is this happening?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they changing why are they closing?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is it lack of funding, like lack of staff, lack of doctors?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter's actually just graduated as a doctor.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very aware that um there's a shortage of doctors, and particularly in the rural space.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but not just the rural space.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: What why do you think this is happening?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's your Yeah, it's definitely multifaceted.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's there needs to be more funding, there needs to be um more people encouraged to train in these professions.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's been a real burnout which has kind of even been exacerbated by COVID and the extra challenges.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of um midwives that work in this space are mothers and need flexible working hours.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as we all know, healthcare professionals are notoriously underpaid for the work and the pressure that they're under.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it is hard to encourage and draw stuff into these hospitals that are at breaking point.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so a lot of hospitals are now offering kind of bonuses and incentives.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Even in Tasmania before this one closed, they were offering midwives a$10,000 bonus to come and work in these hospitals.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And people are kind of looking at going, well, why would I put myself through that?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you break down the very meaning of midwife, it means to be with women, and yet they feel like, um, I mean, I'm speaking on behalf of them, but I think a lot of them feel like they can't practice the profession that they know and love because of the restrictions.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: They've got too many women under their care.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so they can't support you in the way that they would like to.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think a lot of um midwives are saying, well, then perhaps this isn't for me anymore.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got a lack of staff to fill the spots and then very challenging.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, also we know that midwifery care is um yeah, fantastic, has fantastic outcomes, and yet we need obstetricians to oversee the midwifery care, and then we need pediatricians and we need more anethratists.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a systemic issue, and obviously takes kind of seven or eight years to be trained and be able to work in that field.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's definitely not a quick fix.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right, because you know, when when you look at the young doctors, let's say choosing their professions and their specialty, it's a really long climb, and then it's also a very time-consuming and difficult, challenging uh space because you can get caught at all times of the night, etc., etc.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, it's a great honor because what a wonderful thing to do with your life is to, but I think that's interesting just from that side of the fence, how a lot of these women and men to some degree are trying to weigh up, but there's a chronic shortage.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that because it's a female uh focused issue that it's it's getting less attention, less funding, less support?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you think that's not relevant?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's a big component.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think if one in three men, I mean, a a woman gives birth in Australia every one minute and 45 seconds, and if one in three of them are coming out traumatized, both physically and emotionally, um, I think if that was men, things would be done.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they rushed out and made Viagra for men.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet a lot of women come out of birth trauma or birth injuries with sexual dysfunction and challenges.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's not, you know, people just are less interested in that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's less of a moneymaker, so it doesn't feel as essential.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I've come away from my first birth with a second degree prolapse, so I have daily reminders of that birth.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I went on to have two more vaginal births that were uncomplicated, but I've got repercussions from the first birth that will be lifelong.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I and when I've gone to personally have that checked by an obstetrician, she said, Well, you're going to need a hysterectomy, like that's the only way to improve that, which is a huge procedure.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if um a lot of women are kind of faced with that, it's not just, oh, you've got a happy baby, you've got a healthy baby and a healthy mum, so just put the birth behind you.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of us can't.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's not insignificant.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's not insignificant, and and I think in some ways that's probably as you know, from what I'm reading, for you it was very serious, like a near-death experience, and you really took that and used it as your inverted, commas power tool to to drive change.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose to see that you're not alone is you're more than not alone.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's so, I mean, those stats are pretty scary, to be honest.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so how do we how do we ensure have you made got any traction?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have you have you got any insight into whether change is doable and if it's moving slowly in the right direction?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: As we know, female issues are being put much more like the gender gap being, you know, this week with the gender gap being uh closing and people having to report from their workplace about the gender gap.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's huge.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, nobody thought that would happen.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's taken a lot of effort by a lot of people.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's a similar thing that we just have to keep chipping away until we get change?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or and do you are you seeing any change?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's going, it's getting worse at the moment, to be honest.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so we've known it's an issue for quite some time.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it hasn't had the attention and the funding and the support that it needs.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's now needs to really be a federal issue because every state is putting up their hand saying, oh, yeah, we've actually got that problem.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's been a real lack of transparency.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of people feel blindsided, oh, suddenly their hospital's been closed.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And yet a lot of people in that arena have known that that was coming.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, it's definitely getting getting worse before it gets better, even though we're now more aware of it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you think practically, clearly, you know, local and federal level government needs to step up?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see this as needing private hospitals are the key?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: What do you see as what can what would a good future look like that would improve this situation?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we know from research that the best outcomes for mother and baby is continuity of care.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So knowing your care provider from your pregnancy care, and knowing the care provider at your birth and postnatally.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we should be striving and working towards making that accessible to all Australian women, both regionally and in the cities.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and with closures, we're moving further and further away from that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Only 8% of Australian women have access to a publicly funded midwifery group model where you get your own midwife, which is what I was very fortunate enough to have for all three births.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: You have your own midwife for that whole period of care.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't pay a cent for my care.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very, very fortunate.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: But 8% is just so minimal.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I mean, I can't.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or through the public system, I'm assuming.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I paid for ultrasounds, but I didn't have to pay any like$10,000 like some people do when they go past privately.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think it's an answer of like we need more public or we need more private, we just need more of everything yesterday.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I'm the uh my kind of contribution or what I feel like I can do is just help to educate and empower women to know what their options are in the birth space.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever they um end up birthing, they understand the ins and outs of an epidural, they know what's involved in an emergency cesarean.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when they're in the throes of labor um and they're asked to make these decisions and to give consent, it's informed consent.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they know that they're saying, yes, I would like that, and I'm aware that it may lead to this, that, and the other.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that in itself, empowering women in that way and giving them that autonomy of their own body in birth is gonna I think that the other thing is like there's a lot of people that, for example, I know there's lots of people that say, Oh, you know what, I'm gonna have a natural birth, all good, that's what I'm gonna have, no matter what.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: I believe in that, and I totally respect that.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: But as you say, they're not fully educated or informed about what that really means, those choices.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: For example, I've got three children, my first one was a breach.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have known that it was gonna happen, and so that wasn't an option for me, you know, for my first child.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um, it was just as you say, like it was literally you're there, they go, it's a breach, no option, Caesar, off you go, done, no choice.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So so for me, that was something I just I mean, this is a long time ago, but it it was just like, well, there you go, you know, that's it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want the baby to be healthy and safe, whatever the doctors say.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But as you say, I think a lot of this is about education, partly of which your podcast is doing by showcasing some of these issues and and decisions.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, really a lot of women need to be further educated before they embark on that.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I suppose women in their 20s are delaying motherhood often for a range of reasons, but partly you know, there's a certain fear factor.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: There's so it's that balance.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like in some ways, my mother's generation was like, you just have your four kids, off you go, get over it, whatever.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was a much more my mother was like four children, bam, off you go, and she worked full time.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: That was it, you know.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: For for us, we were probably in the middle range, and then you've got the 20-year-olds who are almost too informed, so it can be paralyzing, you know, too.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that balance, isn't it?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Educate, but don't terrify.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there are all the added complexities of having children later.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a career that you don't want to kind of fall back on.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: We are aware of kind of the gaps in superannuation and all the setbacks there.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So people are trying to balance it all.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, it's incredibly challenging.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's great to see shifts in some positives that are happening now is kind of getting longer and um greater paid parental leave that's accessible both to the Birthing parent and the non-birthing parent.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's wonderful to see and greater access to IVF.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I've been, I feel like I've been very negative.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are some steps forward, but you know, we've got some great, great work and challenge ahead.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think it's it's that shift in kind of you go to a doctor when you're sick, usually.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you have that, there's a kind of a bit of a white coat syndrome where you assume that they know best.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, they've done years and years of study and they do know a lot more of you than you do in this space.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to remember that birth isn't an illness.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're going in to be assisted in your birth and you still have rights.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine perhaps back in the day when they said you're having a breach, baby, you'll have a Caesar.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You thought, okay, I'm having a Caesar.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll leave it to you to be the soldier.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was just not even a, I mean, it was not up for discussion.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and you're right in there in that situation.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: You're not about to start negotiating.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's been a real shift in that space of late where you can kind of say, okay, so I'm having a cesarean.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd like to be involved.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a maternally assisted cesarean.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Some women are kind of scrubbing in for the surgery and lifting the baby out if that's what they prefer.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or, or you can ask for a kind of gentle cesarean where the baby's left to kind of emerge out, provided there's no complications.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of variations now, or you can say, Oh, I want to play my own playlist, and I don't want anybody to talk because it's still a sacred birth.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, um, different options like that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, that's been a real shift.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine that probably wasn't on the cards at that time and people weren't talking in that way.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's really that's really beautiful to hear that though.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what is very important is that while there's a lot of traumatic stories, it's very important we hear the good stories too, because as I said, and that's the balance is educate about what can go wrong or what choices you might want to make, but also not terrifying and paralyze the next generation to say, oh, it's gonna, you know, you're gonna be traumatized, devastated, because it's actually the most beautiful thing you do, in my opinion, for kids as well.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Best thing I've ever done in my life, even though there was certain elements of inverticom as trauma, but then some of that you accept that what you're doing is a massive thing and it can within reason have, you know, you're in hospital for a week.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's that can be quite good, actually, with your subsequent kids.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like you'd have served, you know, like there's an element of depends what hospital, of course.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: But exactly, yeah.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: But what I'm trying to say is we have to find that balance of, as you mentioned, not being too negative while being realistic.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think we can do both and still be informed and educated?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I in the book, and both in the book and the podcast, I do kind of harrowing tales um right through to positive water births with no intervention and kind of almost an orgasmic experience, which I still find baffling.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you on that one.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I make those the titles of those stories and they've got warnings and trigger warnings and just to alert you.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're not ready to hear that particular story right now, then perhaps don't listen today.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd encourage you to come back tomorrow or next week because I think by not listening to just kind of putting your blinkers on, um, it does yourself a disservice if things do become um if you do suddenly need an emergency emergency, Cesarean.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So finding that balance and providing it in a way where women can pick and choose, rather than just having a woman come up to you in the aisle and touch your belly and tell you, I hemorrhaged and blah, blah, blah.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can be decisive about what you what information you take in and when.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you touch on, and I agree with that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's very true, and that's something I do know in what you do.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I think there's so many issues here that I could touch on, but I'll just grab a few.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've talked about, was talking about what parenthood would look like in 50 years.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it will look different to what we're experiencing now?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or is birth, as for thousands of years, you know, whether you're in the cave or wherever you were having the baby, do you think it's going to look different?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think our family dynamics and the makeup of the families that we see nowadays is really changing.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a kind of a rise in solo parenthood and um women that are having children by choice and same-sex couples.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the the way families traditionally look is certainly changing and we're becoming more and more accepting of that difference.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think there's a real shift in um the non-birthing partner wanting to be involved.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I welcome that shift of not all the responsibility falling on the mother, because um, yeah, the mother load is is significant.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can see it more of as a parental load and a and a distribution of that task, then um, yeah, I really look forward to that shift.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're moving towards that gradually.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think so too.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: My observation of that sort of 20 to 30 year old generation, they seem to be very into decisions that involve both of them, like if the mother's got to stop work and how's that going to impact?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you talk about, you know, parenting without a village, why motherhood is increasingly a financial decision.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really interesting topic as well.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, if a woman has to stop, and actually we were talking about this with regards to super and a whole lot of other things that I was actually explaining to my son, you know, women stop to have their children.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Yeah, so why is that?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we were talking about that issue of so they usually, if you have three children, let's say you lose on average a year or two, depending on what you can afford or not afford for three children times two, that's six years, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: For example, yeah.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: By the time you're back, and then you also have to go part-time or you might go contract.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So there's also that financial reality.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of these kids, the 20 to 30 year olds are saying, Well, I'll just wait till I'm 30 until I know I'm financially in a place where I can either get leave or I've got savings, or so are you noticing a lot of discussion around that?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that's changed particularly of late with the rising interest rates as well.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think the move away from okay, you get married, you save for a house, and then you have a baby, I think that's really been flipped on its head.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: People are like, oh, well, I can't have a wedding because of COVID, so let's have a baby and we'll probably never be able to buy a house.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people are like, I mean, I bought a house last year and I don't know if um it's all that great when you're paying a mortgage anyway.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: So not with those interest rates pushed enough six times, you know.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: That happened to me when I was like 20 in my 20s.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Same, you know, that was that shots, that increase rate where you just said, what just happened?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know I didn't sign up for that.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but I think even the next yeah, it's huge.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you go back to work part-time and perhaps your full income covers childcare.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all aware of the challenges of childcare and the and the costs and while they're working on that um in the government at the moment.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think people are very mindful of all of those challenges and access to care.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And do your parents or do they live locally, can they help?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And are they willing to help?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I think there's just more of an awareness.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So so then that has can then have a knock-on effect of perhaps you wait a bit longer, and then you've got fertility challenges.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I was about to say so many.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's fertility issues, and there's also obviously you've got you know risks, higher risks as you're older.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: That, you know, that's just a reality biologically for a woman.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you have your birth 35 plus, it is a different story, not just fertility, but also in terms of risk for the baby.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it is really challenging, but I think those challenges have always been there.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: What I think is changing is the dialogue around that is much more overt, part of which your podcast and your book are basically tapping in a brave, bold, and uh informative way, which you know, I think a lot of women, that's why it's it's been so successful.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so for you, do you how's it changed your life?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And do you feel somewhat?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose vindications a little extreme, but there's an element of vindication saying, hey, I wasn't alone.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: This experience is across the board, and how can we stop other people from suffering the same thing?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I almost feel like I'm an accidental business owner.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but now, like the messages I get are just mind-blowing.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, before I got on the call, I sent it to Jody, who I co-wrote the book with, a message where a woman just said, we've dedicated a whole chapter in the book to miscarriage and loss, because we know that one in four women buying our book won't have um, won't have a birth that ends in a live baby, and we wanted to nurture them.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a woman just texts me and said, I'm so thankful that you wrote that chapter because I just had my nine-week scan and we've lost our baby.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband and I are now reading that chapter and feel really informed because then you've got a host of other decisions to quickly make.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps you haven't told everyone that you're pregnant yet.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be really isolating.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that even that family I've made a difference to them is overwhelming.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it, yeah, I've I'm surprised at where things have come, but I'm just so proud of um, yeah, the work that and and the fact that people trust me to share their story because it's not just me putting the podcast together, it's vulnerable women making their self available and sharing that um that has made the community what it is.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so the business and brand you refer to, can you just talk a little bit about that and how that has grown?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: As as I I read, I actually read that you know, you built a million-dollar empire from your Nissan X-trail.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, talk to me about that, because that's definitely piqued my interest.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I started the podcast and only up until recently have stopped recording in my car.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I just have very low um key setup of a USB mic and my laptop.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And because I'm interviewing women that have got newborns and toddlers, it's really difficult to find a time that suits everyone.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then my three boys are particularly noisy, so I often just go, I'm in the car for an hour and I'm doing the show.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So relaxed.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually really good acoustically, like there's a lot to be said.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But my physiologist said, Can you please stop?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Your back is like not handling it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I love that because I mean I have podcasts weekly, and I know I haven't done in the car, I will say, but I I hear you again.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's an option.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I've now I'm sitting now in my I've made a little pod that's at the end of the garden.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so now I sit in a comfortable chair.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband has just in the last six months stopped working.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's a primary school teacher, so he's now the stay-at-home dad.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I've got the flexibility of working hours, so I still often do school drop-off and pick up and kinder run um in amongst the work.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess it started as a podcast, then I moved into online courses, so birth education courses that I sell, um, then advertising space on the podcasts, and um, I've got a service directory on the website that's really expanded.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, yeah, more recently, the book.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's quite a few different on my Instagram account.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: I also sort of sell advertising space on there as well.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So there's quite a few different um components to their income.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, that was very unexpected.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess in a way, I filled a void for people during COVID when they couldn't get out and go to antenatal classes and attend things.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So being online and already set up in that way, I actually kind of tripled my income during COVID.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was one of the lucky ones.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: And also um there's something good about that too, because then your husband or the partner is there if it's online.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to say, come on, we're going to birth classes, or we're going to learn this, or we're going.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's something good about that as well.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's amazing what you've done, and I think it's really interesting.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a platform that really I love that you've created organically.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I have great um respect for the bravery it takes, because I know myself what it takes to create something in a way out of nothing, and to to also develop these wonderful relationships too.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Get all the DMs and the um, I mean, what you're describing, like that text you just got, that's really special.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you do it, isn't it?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's so rewarding and fulfilling.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel very, very fortunate.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'd like to thank you so much for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I look forward to um your book, where can people buy the book?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just so the book is the complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth, and it's available in all good bookstores now.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And online, I'm assuming at Apple.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can find all my resources at Australian Birthstories.com.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Sophie, and you have a wonderful day.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I look forward to hearing the next instalment.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks very much.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Love you.