Latest / Follow the Leighder / Telling Blackfeet Stories on Screen | Ivan MacDonald, Emmy-Winning Filmmaker

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Telling Blackfeet Stories on Screen | Ivan MacDonald, Emmy-Winning Filmmaker · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks, and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me today from Billings, Montana is Ivan McDonald. Welcome to the studio. Ivan MacDonald: Thank you for having me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Folks, this is this is an honor. I am not sure if you have gotten around to movies in a while. I certainly have, thank God, because Ivan is an Emmy award-winning filmmaker and enrolled member of the Blackfeet tribe. His bio includes that he is a 50th generation Montanan. And certainly once we get into the history of Blackfeet, he will explain to you exactly what 50th generation means. And Folks, there's a lot of Montana so say, you know, I'm sixth generation, I'm seventh. So appreciate the punchline on that. Folks, some of his works include Black Blackfeet Boxing, Not Invisible, which was a documentary that premiered on ESPN, Murder and Bighorn, Bring Them Home, 2024. That was a feature-length movie documentary that was also executive produced by Academy Award nominated actress Lily Gladstone. That was a huge, huge deal, and I'm excited that we're gonna talk about that today as well as when they were here. you're currently working on this, which is focused on missing and murdered and indigenous women. Thank you so much for your for your time today. Can you talk to us again, that fiftieth generation Montanan Blackfeet tribe? for folks that are unfamiliar with Montana tribal nations, please share with us what that means to you. Ivan MacDonald: Yeah. You know, it's always kind of a tongue in cheek thing where You know, I w I think is you're if you're an an if you're an indigenous Native American person to you know, there's always kind of these jokes about how, you know, people always like exactly what you said, like, I'm a fourth generation, fifth generation, sixth generation. I remember always like growing up, my dad I think would always joke about, yeah, you know, like you're like fifty, sixty, seventy generation because, you know, our people have always kind of existed, particularly Blackfeet have kind of always existed and you outside of, you know, many tribes have probably have some of the largest claims to claims to Montana. So it's just you know, I think it's a it's a kind of, you know, as I mentioned it's a bit tongue in cheek, but then it's also just kind of a a really kind of you know, specific place based kind of a p a place based joke that I I I really you know, it's just yeah, you know, Blackfeet there's evidence and proof of a Blackfeet being here thousands of years and, you know, it's just it's it's It's it's just always Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Ivan MacDonald: a fun little thing to joke about. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And and one of the things that drew me to you, your works, and then of course meeting you, is your eye for storytelling. I it is your sister that it seemed to be the more vocal and like kind of more public-facing, energetic, extroverted one where you had that I. Can you talk about, you know, looking at your community and with your why you chose some of the stories that you chose? Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, yeah. I mean I could say I always grew up a fan of storytelling. you know, storytelling, whether it was film, books, radio, TV, you know, just kind of any any form of storytelling that I think it's is an indigenous culture, story, oral history. it's such an important part of the c our culture. You know, it's how we pass down language, history, ceremony. and so always being really kind of drawn to to telling stories. And on the al also on the flip side I was just a huge fan of film. I grew up like I mentioned, you know, you what you mentioned, I grew up on Browning and Browning, Montana. The Black View Reservation. It's this small community, maybe about twelve hundred people, situated within I think it's like 1.5 million acres or something. The Black View Reservation is the size of size of Delaware. and there's some small communities on there. I think overall on the reservation there's probably about five, six thousand people tops, and so very isolated, kind of a little bit desolate. I think it's often been referred to a bit more kind of visually, cinematically as windswept. we're at the base of Glacier National Park on the east side, the reservation borders the east side of Glacier National Park. And you know, had just always been kind of drawn to story because for me it was always a a way to kind of escape and kind of be be, you know, in these different worlds or You know, thankfully I did I did kind of experience the world. My parents worked for the government, so I moved around moved around a bit and how my kind of storytelling with this with what I currently do, it's kind of it's kinda funny. It's wholly different world from where my like educational background was. So I was, I got a undergrad, a Bachelor of Science in Psychology and then went on to grad school at the University of Montana and started working and started doing ac ac academic research in social science and was getting a masters in clinical social work but had been doing research in the Montana women's prison and, you know, collecting all of these hours of oral history and research with with incarcerated indigenous women, but was also working at the then it was the Missoula Urban Indian Health Center, but now it's called All Nations Health Center. and kind of I had this opportunity to to tell a story. So for my first year of grad school, first year of grad school was tasked with this this work or this class assignment about kind of creating this this you know, being able to tell this large, broad issue through a through a lens of kind of community engagement. And at that time, was really kind of struck by what I was kind of seeing around just the communities around me. at that point in time a young woman had went missing on the Crow reservation and was found a few days later and then had kind of always had these percolating ideas of you know, I don't I don't even know if the the term or the acronym was really kind of as ubiquitous or apparent then as it was now of MMIW, MMIP, missing and murdered indigenous people, and decided to start telling these stories of just these women and girls that were going missing around us. And my sister and I, she was actually she's actually the one who was trained as a filmmaker. She got her BFA in filmmaking. Decided to collaborate. We did a short and a short film and that was kind of like the jump start of our career. I remember when when IW, Missy and Murder Indigenous Women, kind of started getting a bit of a rise in in like the media and pop culture and, you know, was kind of entering into the ether of just awareness. Wind River that Tyler Sheridan film had just come out. So that was a big a big kind of boost to the big boost to the the issue. And then within our short I we did our short and then months later had kind of been approached by ESPN. ESPN was doing a story on the Blackfeet Reservation. There's a boxing club there. but it was intersected with Ashley Loring Heavy Runner, who's actually a cousin of Ivy and I is a relative, who went missing in twenty eighteen, twenty seventeen on a kind of remote part of the reservation, probably about fifteen, twenty miles from the Canadian border. And yeah, they had approached us. Ashley's sister Kimberly was like I have cousin or I have these two cousins that I'm working with who are who are also telling the story and kind of have like this quote unquote expertise. I had kind of studied the issue and done some like research and writing and yeah, you know, we just started telling this story and it kind of it kind of went from there. Started doing a ton of like news interviews like the Associated Press, NBC Nightly News with Lester Holtz, Al Jazeera, AJ Plus. We did a AJ plus which I don't even know if it's still still a thing. It's like kind of a it was like a digital media kind of component to some of the work Al Jazeera was doing and did a AJ plus interview, which got like twenty two or twenty three million views and it was like one of their most viewed things ever. And from there just kind of started doing more more research, following a few more cases and our kind of larger project, largest project up to that point had approached us, Murder and Bighorn, which was a series with Showtime. the director was like the director of that are kind of was like, hey, I've been he he had just reached out, he had just done a true crime series called Murder in the Bayou. And was was like, yeah, you know, you kind of googled MMIW, you know, media, documentary, what what have you, with your guys' work was kind of the only thing that popped up for a while. And collaborated with with ESP our Showtime, ESPN and then in the flip side we're also we were also kind of working on our own project, which is kind of this this personal narrative, kind of personal history. through the lens of our our community, but through the lens also of our family of of kind of missing and murdered indigenous women. And yeah, that was kind of how the jump start of the kind of storytelling and it's just kind of went off from there. I've really only been a full-time filmmaker maybe the last four or five years, if that, and have thankfully been able to make make a career out of it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, it's it's it's a testament to your skill. I mean, it's clearly something it's just like as soon as it clicked, it it took off. I am, you know, to to take a story, the stories that you've taken, deeply powerful and vulnerable, painful, some of which, many of which have never been heard before. some people have many people have no idea. I are so ignorant of Indigenous issues. How what is that like to take off like that? Tell the story, feel the sense of empowerment, relief, success in in sharing something that you, you know, feel passionately about, but also almost feeling like you're also like either defending. Clarifying misinformation, like it also brings in a whole host of stressors for you too. What was it like to navigate that? Like the the bumpy parts of success? Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I think I always tell people it's like, you know, it's not so much kind of a just like a clear, straightforward path. There's been highs and lows and kind of bumps and twists and turns. And I you know, I think I realized like the power of storytelling. when we did a we did the associated press interview with our uncle, our uncle Kenny. so f our project and kind of this larger look at our our community and our family follows our cousin Monica while still smoking. She was kidnapped on the reservation in nineteen seventy nine at about eight at the age of seven, was missing for about two weeks and was found on a even remote remote more even more re remote part of the reservation, kind of frozen to this mountainside. And so this yeah, the story kind of started there and we did this associated press interview and You know, forty plus years later, we were like the first people to we're like outside of our family or even o you know within our family, you know, kind of but out kind of just in general, we're like the first kind of people to like actually like approach our uncle and sit down and you know, and talk to him and interview him about like his memories and and whatnot. And so when the Associated Press came along, we did a really great we did a really, really in-depth interview and also there's like a short short form media piece I think on it that's still someplace on YouTube it's like missing an Indian country or something. But I remember seeing my uncle's photo. So there's this like photo of him standing above our cousin's grave and you know it was all over it was all it was over quite a few on the cover of quite a few newspapers around the country. And so I was like, wow is it, you know, that's kind of the importance of our power of telling these stories. But yeah, you know, I think that there's been a ton of You know, I think when we first started talking about this issue, it was always kind of like, well, you know, what what what you know, of course, A, because it's such an unseen, unheard issue, there was a lot of things, there was a lot of time taken to make it like a reality for people to be, you know, indigenous people, speaking particularly to Montana. It's like, you know, indigenous people are thirty percent of those that are missing by the Montana Department of Justice, but we're only about six percent of the population. And so again, you know, a lot of it was kind of making it a reality, reality for people. And then once you kind of once we kind of would educate with those kind of you know, stats, figures, whatnot have you, then it'd be like, okay, well, you know, why is it an issue for us? You know, you natives of course are killing each other on the reservations or you know making yourselves go missing. But then I would educate it further. I was like, well, you know, a large portion, probably about 60% of of these cases are off reservation. You know, they're in urban areas, non non-tribal communities, and so it's kind of this larger issue. And then I would speak to this like even larger issue of, well, you know, why is this, why is this this an issue? Why is this so such a prescient crisis within you know indigenous communities? And we get back to, you know, like get back to of course the government, you know, like the structure and the structure of reservation and tribal lands and you know how jurisdiction is such this kind of hot mess, to put it lightly on reservations and you know how there's the the kind of quote unquote forms of justice that are kind of present in our country just are something that is out of reach, out of reach of indigenous communities. And so you know, it was always kind of this aspect of kind of justifying the need to tell the story, but then coming back in with you know, cold hard facts, stats, figures, just to kind of show like not just the the the fact that it was an issue, but you know, even just like the depth, the breadth of the depth and breadth of of why it was such an issue and why it was this huge, why it is still to this day kind of this this huge issue. And so, you know, I think it just regards with any kind of story we tell, you know, regardless of messaging, regardless of of background, regardless of the format in which we try to tell the story, it's always trying to make the reality of indigenous people a reality for for non indigenous people because it's, you know, it's such this such this aspect of, you know, it's like, yeah, nothing kind of exists, exists for for the reality of people if it's not tangible, if it's not, you know, if it's not seen, if it's not heard. And so it's kind of a lot of these these stories. And I mean that's even kind of what a through line for one of my current projects is is exactly that. It's like, you know, how do you make history truth kind of real for for communities that haven't experienced it? And you know, it's also like know the the the nature of you know like historical archive and you know what is history uncover and so all of these kind of things they kind of meld together that you know it's like of course I kind of gravitated towards a project which is almost solely about that of kind of trying to make this make this thing real. But you know I think that's kind of where the bumps and the bumps and the the kind of stuff has always come was just kind of that pushback of why this story, why is it important, why now Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and you had already been building and building with with Blackfeet boxing and murder and bighorn, but I feel like bring them home really was big, right? I mean, that like that was like the big thing that was like, wow, like and and that's it's an incredible film. I mean, all of your work is, but can you talk to us about the return of the buffalo to tribal homelands? So folks, Again, we're out west in Montana. Please, if you could explain the very rich and dark history of the blackfeet, the bison and and really also the US government. Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, yeah. I mean in the film we kind of open up with this we open up with this narration about, you know, our our creator Napi Natussi. That's what the black feet refer to, the creat our creator. created created the blackfeet, created kind of the land, the earth, and then created the bison so that the black feet would have you know not just kind of this spiritual spiritual companion but also kind of this you know this giver of life this thing that would provide sustenance and shelter and tools and and just kind of you know provide so many ceremonial things for the blackfeet and so that was kind of the you know the the st the story this the beginning of film kind talks about the genesis of all of that and you know not just for the black feet but I think for North America in general, buffalo, bison. bison is actually the correct term. I always, you know, I always think if people use it so much interchangeably that I was like, I was like, you know, I'm I'm not a stickler, you know, I'm not a scientist. So I was like, you know, I know the scientists like, well no, it's actually bison, the only buffalo are in Africa, the continent of Africa. And so, you know, I think with with with that project, you know, we really wanted to kind of touch on, you know, bison are probably the most ubiquitous animal within North America historically. You know, they're they were kind of the the kind of, you know, they're what's referred to as a keystone species, which is a species that not only is is is ubiquitous to the to the area, to the geograph geographic area of the land, but there's just so important to biodiversity, you know, environmental, ecological health. They were kind of, you know, they outside of, you know, a few other mammals, they were probably the one of the the most important mammals that kind of shaped the continent and kind of shaped the lens and, you know, were currently on. And of course on the flip side, you know, they were such an important part of not just blackfeet culture, but most indigenous cultures. And, you know, th I remember reading and researching and going to all these like historical accounts of you know, just how and just how how many, you know, just to put it in kind of light terms, just how many of these animals just kind of roamed, roamed, roamed, roamed America. You know, there's like historical evidence of bison in Glacier National Park like twelve thousand years ago and, you know, kind of all of these like historical archaeological you know, when I was doing research for for bring them home, had just did like this huge deep dive 'cause when I'm doing a whenever I'm d working on a new project, that's just kind of what I what I do. I just start doing a deep dive and learning and reading and researching. And that was kind of similar, similar with this project. Where You know, it was just you know, I had grown up, I had grown up pretty culturally connected. I kind of had this the luck of that of, you know, not only growing up on the reservation, but growing up kind of with a sense of identity through the lens of culture and ceremony. both my parents were practitioners of blackfeet culture and would put on kind of the blackfeet version of a sundance is called an Ocon, which is is is exactly kind of that it's like a ceremony that takes place in the summer it's usually over a a span of a few days but it's kind of this it's creating this this kind of this this lodge or this kind of kind of ceremonial structure which is just kind of a a thing that we put on to you know for the creator to kind of show the creator that we're still you know we're still we're still connected in and still understand the importance of him and you know had grown up kind of understanding also on the flip side understanding the the the importance of bison because bison are so important to that ceremony. you know historically historically bison bison were used in the ceremony throughout everything, you know, we there's a tongue cutting ceremony that leads up to the leads up to the the the putting on of this putting on of this ceremony. So it's the you know we'd cut and dry tongues and kind of hang them and use them for the ceremony and you know the bison the bison Hide was used to put up the put up the structure. bison were kind of a central part of the whole ceremony. and so, you know, growing up kind of understanding just that importance of them, but not seeing them, you know, never ever kind of seeing bison growing up, but kind of understanding the importance of them and you know, the the relationship with with Blackfeet and bison is just, you know, not only is it not only is it beneficial, you know, where they provided a lot of sustenance. Their pelts were used for their pelts were used to make our teepee, our tepees, our clothes, their their horns and other things. Hoves were used to were used for tools. Their their their you know, their meat was eaten, their insides, bladders, hearts, kidneys, lungs were used for different things as well. their there was a spiritual, you know, that kind of spiritual component. And so, you know I thought that was off. You know so when So when The government, you know, kind of the onset of colonization happened in the in the fourteen fourteen hundreds and kind of moved upwards and and northward and kind of expanded. it took it took a lot to understand that bison were probably the most important animal to to the natives or indigenous people. And so, you know, a lot of the you know, when the when as the kind of manifest destiny westward expansion happened, you know, there's all of these historic historical first hand person accounts of just, you know, seeing bison out on the plains and it was like this moving brown sea just with how many there are and, you know, it would be this thunderous, thunderous stampede and and, you know, I think that understanding that that You know, as the westward expansion kind of happened, there was a lot of kind of historical th things of like, you know, like understanding that bison are kind of important to these communities. And if we're going to quote unquote kind of civilize, acculturate, but also really kind of you know, conquer, quote unquote conquer these these communities, we need to go after their ways of life. So that was kind of a big thing with bison. And you know, we use a quote in the film from Emmy Dodge, Colonel Emmy Dodge. Of you know, kill every bison you can. every bison dead is a native or is an Indian dead. And so, you know, as kind of this, as as on the flip side, as as indigenous communities were being colonized and and you know, kind of decimated and and whatnot, the same thing was happening to the bison where the bison were kind of going to their genocide, and you know, the the numbers of bison were in the millions to hundreds of thousands, but as kind of manifest destiny and westward expansion happened. and we're kind of, you know, genocided down to a few thousand. And our story kind of that's kind of the jumping off point of our story where then we start following following kind of you know, from the point on of that kind of genocide on and kind of start following these. And you know, the film kind of starts starts from that point on of really kind of understanding just what that destruction and near genocide and kind of eco eco-terrorism, eco-racism that happened to the blackfeet kind of start setting up the story for this this larger picture at you know, bison and bison restoration, but also the history of them and the kind Next into the bike feed. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and and when you you talk about this this genocide, listeners, I really want to like foot stomp this. This is very intentional. Like very Ivan MacDonald: yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: like this was not just, it I mean, it was outright intentional. And about a year and a half ago during graduate school, I did a paper on actually here in Montana, Fort Shaw Indian Boarding School, the girls' basketball team. at the St. Louis World's Fair and and that's a great story and I don't I don't wanna d detract from but folks definitely Google that one. But my my point being was I really went deep into the BIA Bureau of Indian Affairs commissioner reports. And I mean there's I mean it we're talking like deliberate, like we are going to take out the bison. It is And and they would enumerate in government documents again to be handed to the president, to be handed to military commanders, like we're doing this because there is a spiritual connection they have to the Indian the that indigenous people have to the bison. It is their food supply. It I mean, exactly what you're saying, it is genocide. We're going and this is how we're going. And and in government federal documents and no accident. I I I just I really wanted to to to double And then of course also in in government documents does it talk about the intent very intentional push away from nomadic resource gathering or seasonal and instead pushing on to static land, farmland. And and I was talking even in the government documents, it talks about how issues with you know, American white livestock. And indigenous people 'cause all of it, I mean, guys, this was a complete imposition on people's worlds, lands, the way I mean for thousands of years, just like you said. again, written in government documents. the Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, no, I was supposed to yeah, it was essentially like even just, you know, on that highest level of government like a legislated legislated genocide. You know, so you know, it's that the you and our film touches on a lot of those those aspects of, you know, like the Dawes Act and what that created and, you know, kind of this this settlement and and, you know, also like the introduction of cattle and kind of what that is on the film. Touches on a lot of lot of those aspects because they're so important to, you know, not just the bison story, but really the formation of the formation of, you know, the lands that we're currently on living in the West. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And and that's a good a good segue. folks, my listeners know, or y'all listen y'all know that I I love being outside, minored in environmental science, spend some time out in Botswana, in fact, doing some wildlife sustainable tourism in college and just always loved and been drawn to it. And then of course, as I moved up north, got more involved in public lands advocacy. I was introduced to the topic of land back or the phrase land back, tribal management, and other concepts that we just really didn't talk about in the South because in the South we're s we're just so popular. It just we just have different conversations about our lands in general. don't get me started. But my point being, you really focus on we you've already said this earlier, decolonizing land, tribal management. land back again is a is a phrase. Can you talk about what these concepts mean to p to folks who, of course, want to advocate for public lands but wanna go a little bit deeper into what land stewardship would look like? Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean I f I always kind of frame line back. as you know, Landback is kind of this this term for kind of this this this movement that is kind of is rooted really in not just the honoring and acknowledging of existing but you know historical relationships of indigenous communities, peoples to just the land that they stewarded for for millennia. And you know, I always frame Landback as not only is it this kind of philosophical idea. idea rooted in that. It's also this theoretical it's also this theoretical practical term that could that for me kind of has like legal legal legal implic implications and repercussions and landback is really situated in this this this this idea in this framework of giving indigenous people back their land. You know, the land through through you we made a quick mention to kind of the the usurping what kind of the the ways in which the government has largely legislated and kind of legisl legislated away hundreds of millions of acres of indigenous land and kind of appropriated indigenous land through various acts and you know I always frame it as probably one of the most foundational foundational laws or acts to the United States, but also really indigenous cultures was the Dawes Act. So the it j the Indian Allotment Act in eighteen eighty seven, which it split up it split up tribal lands and gave heads of households Like a parcel, I think is what I think is around sixty or so so or for sixty acres of land. And then exactly what you said, it kind of tried to force these these often you know, nomadic communities. But even, you know, I think nomadic is a maybe the incorrect term. It was just kind of the understanding of land, you know. just kind of the movement of of of of indigenous communities where it wasn't really just kind of nomadic or d it wasn't but it was really kind of a deliberate movement, you know, like black we'd always talk about, you know, we had our winter camp and we had our summer camp and I think a lot of tribes kind of focused in that way. And you know, kind of the getting back to the idea of the Ladback, it's this kind of theoretical idea of of that, you know, with the DAS Act as the as the tribe tribes were broke up. And even, you know, the even the DAZ Act kind of has this really i really incredible nature that's kind of our history that's kind of rooted in rooted in Anthropology and ethnography, and there was this, and her name escapes me at the moment with the the Nezpiers. She worked with the Nezpiers. Her name was the measuring stick woman or something like that. And she just threw her study, study of indigenous cultures and living with indigenous cultures. Indigenous people was like, okay, you know, if we're really going to quote unquote civilize these people, one of the lo one of the easiest ways we can kind of break up just the cultural, spiritual, you know, foundations for these people is by going. going after land by breaking up the Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Ivan MacDonald: land, moving it from kind of this collective, this c collective, collective kind of kinship where, you know, it was it was where everyone kind of existed on it by making by breaking it up and forming it into these really deliberate, delineated, separated, kind of individual plots of land. And so that was a big part of the movement was moving the land from, you know, the kind of this collective kind of stewardship ownership into this really kind of European idea of individual land ownership. And you know, there's always these these these discussions and why, you know, why also kind of you know, spiritually but legally, why the government really kind of went after won after land was kind of these misunderstandings of, you know, indigenous communities didn't have the understanding of property rights or land rights, which historic hist history and just kind of personal are hist history and kind of historical records shows that's not the case. And these indigenous communities had really intricate ideas of land ownership and and kind of property rights and and land rights and and you know, but the Dawes Act really was one of the first and probably most formative laws to really attack just not just indigenous land, but then also just the the the spiritual, you know, ceremonial, cultural underpinnings of how indigenous people ex existed in Steward on the land. So it broke up land and it opened up like a surplus of three hundred million acres of land, for for Western settlement. And, you know, that was the Homestead Act where, you know, not only once once that act did open up, it brought in you know, it brought in Western population, it brought in, you know, European settlers and really kind of was structurally I think probably the most impactful piece of was kind of the most impactful piece of legislation when it came to to kind of disrupting indigenous connection to the land. And, you know, it was a deliberate kind of it was a really deliberate act of just removing indigenous people from the land because that was such that's such an important part and such a formative identity identity for people, you know, with a black feet. you know, we're we're we're nothing without our connection to the land and our connection to place and You know, I kind of mentioned where black feet are kind of lucky in that aspect where they've had kind of they're one of just like a handful of of groups in the in the United States who have kind of had this historical connection to the land but have also stayed in the areas which which they've claimed. And so you know that there's all of these kind of larger movements of of land back and bringing back land and you know, even in the film we kind of talk about that a lot 'cause the film we also saw it as this this movement of land back for the bison. You know, through this through these effects of colony colonization, there was so much emphasis on the land and emphasis on breaking up connections to the land, not just of obviously, you know, indigenous communities, but also the the the you know, the the animal that's probably the most representative of indigenous people bison. So we th we we'd really we we really frame tried to frame the film too as, you know, it's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Ivan MacDonald: land back for the bison, but you know then the film also gets into Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Ivan MacDonald: these larger things of like jurisdiction on tribal lands and kind of the difference between, you know, tribal, federal, state, kind of all of these different different kind of you know, kind of land structurings which, you know, kind of are exacerbate, I guess, a lot of these problems within Indian country. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and it's also it to me it just makes sense to work with indigenous people when it comes to land stewardship given that they had been living I mean, who better to know and understand flood season and wildfire season than the you what like it's like a obvious to me. Like and then it's just and of course I understand you got the the demon a the demonization and white supremacy and nationalism and and all the layers to it. But I mean that is like You know, coming from the South, I think about you talk about severing that connection between people and land. I see that I I I've just I've really thought about that in terms of how the the colonization of the land down south and even like for women, keeping women in the home. of course you had slaves out in the and the enslaved out in the farms and crops and and and women in the home, but just like the way keeping from or tethering to land without agency creates a a whole domino effect. And and and so again, and I I do know that there have been I I mentioned wildfires earlier because we just went through wildfire season. but that is I've I've seen increased, you know, headlines and things about how much more I guess our American parks and our Department of Interior are working with tribal management authorities and and and folks, but there the other concern, and I know this is a a larger question. I don't know if we can answer on a podcast, but going to some of these conferences or listening to some of these other interviews and things, sometimes I feel like it's unfair to put a post-industrial problem or a solution like try to find a solution to a post-industrial problem to pre-industrial ways of living because it I mean you're talking about man versus the machine like and and and that's a lot. So that is another question I've had is sometimes I'm just calling out particularly folks that are like, we'll just we'll just do what the indigenous people and it's like, well hold on you're putting a lot of pressure on them to solve mining like that. Like that, like it it the machine, the oil, like so They're just we just have to go for the machine while still learning indigenous ways of of being with the earth. Can you talk about I know we are getting closer to time, but can you talk about some of your influences? Like, you know, it of course you felt motivated to share these stories. You you obviously have the eye, the heart, the the skill. but I mean who or what what inspired you? to to take that risk. And Ivan MacDonald: Yeah. You know, I s I just want to touch really briefly though on one more point before Leigh/@followtheleighder: sorry. Ivan MacDonald: You know, you made a really interesting point about, you know, I think what you were kind of getting at is this idea of, you know, I think I the idea of what you were saying, you know, this idea of land stewardship in the people who have existed there for for millennia. you know, there's this acute understanding that I feel, which is in relation to land, place, people communities, populations. You know, this is for kind of all indigenous cultures around the world where there's this unique relationship. Of not only is it being placed or existing in these lands for generations, but then there's this also acute and deep understanding of just how this land. exists, how this land interacts, you know, how what you're exactly saying, you know, understanding weather patterns, understanding, you know, you know, the the Blackfeet always joke that where currently Browning is, that's a place where Blackfeet would never have set up camp. You know, it's kind of awful, it's exposed, the wind is kind of infamous up there. You know, we would we would establish a more we would establish our winter camps a bit farther down near near Fort Benton, near Fort Benton on the Missouri River, and then our winter camps would be a bit farther up north, our summer camps would be a bit farther north up near Glacier National Park. And so you know, understanding these, you know, not only is it just kind of this this this existence on the land, there's a real acute understanding of ecological, environmental, keystone species. I mean, I always tell people as too, is like, you know, what else community would create except people who have existed what other communities would recreate would create this this spiritual reverence for bison, for beavers. Beavers are probably maybe after bison the most sacred creature to the black feet and that probably largely has to do to, you know, them having a large effect on water and, you know, blackfeet Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Ivan MacDonald: access to water. So, you know, I tell you flies like, you know, it's kind of framed and sometimes framed in these more kind of flowery views of, indigenous people lived with you know, lived with the animals and the plants. But it was also it was this acute, really kind of this really acute understanding of just how to exist on the land. Like if you're gonna exist on this land, it's not in competition, it's not in in in contrast, it's not, you know, it's not on the flip side of the nature versus man. It's this relationship which, you know, I think modern relationships have really sever severed is just this deeper spiritual connection to the land. But then it's also this this this almost, you know, scientific connection to the land. Like I'm I think I'd mentioned in my talk in at the One Green Thing event that beavers are kind of my one of my big kind of interest in research research things at the moment. But you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, understanding that, like, you know, it's it's this it was it's this kind of connection that indigenous communities have beyond just existing in this land, this environment. It's this acute understanding of where the the elements or the you know, the animals, the mammals, the creatures that are live there are existing and that's where I feel like a lot of indigenous communities have learned their ways of living on the land is through through the the the animals that kind of cre you know, kind of carved out this land. And so yeah, just kinda wanted to touch on that, you know, kind of that idea of why land is such an important thing to indigenous communities and why things like land conservation, indigenous led land conservation, management practices, you know, there's there's there's like even so they're starting to do prescribed burnings back up here in indigenous communities. I I think one I had saw recently was Confederated Salish and Kutney tribes were doing some prescribed land burnings on the national bison range. And so you know kind of just getting a bit to that point. and I think it's it can be a jumping off point for people to kind of understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, thank you. And and thank you for taking the the time to to come and inform us. I I really hope that you come back. can you tell us where we can donate, share, support, or, you know, otherwise engage more with you and your content? Ivan MacDonald: Yeah, yeah. So I mean a lot of my stuff up to this point. So Blackbeat Boxing, Murder and Bighorn, Bring Them Home are all available through different various streaming platforms. Bring Them Home is available through PBS streaming, but it's also available to stream on Apple, Prime. kind of all of those those platforms where you're we're able to stream and then black feet boxing is available through ESPN the ESPN streaming platform and since the the the shuttering of Showtime documentary there are I think Murder of Rick Horn was like the last project Showtime documentary did. I know it's available somehow through Showtime but I always tell people I was like with a lot of these things sign up for the free trial if you want to watch it for the week cancel your membership before the end the week you can still watch the you can still watch the projects. But yeah, you know, I think for me I was never I've never been like a huge social media person, so a lot a lot of my stuff is kind of just like, you know, kind of curated for me. But social media is o often a good thing. You can just look me up. My name is just like Ivan MacDonald. I use both Facebook and Instagram and I think those are the only two. And yeah, I post a lot of updates about my work, kind of getting a bit more into the social media, kind of community building through one of my projects, which is call my spirit. What's about the resident is the history of indigenous residential schools, told through the lens of science and technology that's being used to bring those that history to light. And yeah, you know, that one will be out sometime next year. And yeah, you can kind of just kind of just follow us, follow follow my say us because of my sister, you know, my creative practices is really tied to her. but yeah, you know, I think kind of this those are the ways to kind of keep keep keep keep in the loop of what we're doing. We have some other projects that will be coming out soon that I'm really excited about and you can kind of follow the work there. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm so excited. Thank you again for your time. And folks, if you have any questions as we've been talking, please let me know in the comments. Ivan, I'd love to have you come back to promote more of your work. And for some of those comments, definitely if you have any questions, love to bring those to the next conversation. Folks, this has been another wonderful episode of Follow the Leighder... I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And until next time, see ya.