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Effective Team Management: Checking In and Delegating Wisely · Business Roundtable

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Hi, everybody, Welcome back to the Business Roundtable podcast. I am one
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of your hosts here, David Carr of Stewart Your Business, where I help
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business owners in their teams in organizational health, helping them be leaders themselves and
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helping lead their teams. So we've got a great roundtable for you tonight.
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Before we get into our topic, though, I'll go through and have everybody
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introduce themselves. We'll start with Bill Hatch. Bill Hey, Bill Hatch here
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Leadership Guide and podcast or as a little sign says I podcast under the banner
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of Bald Spots Productions, and we have a wide variety of interviews and roundtables,
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and I'm working on my leadership book. I figure I'm about halfway through
0:50
with the organizational part. So there we go. Thanks Bill, glad to
0:56
have you back again. And Charlie welcome, Thank you David, thanks for
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having me back. My name is Charlie, the cybersecurity specialists of our roundtable
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here and for the older folks, almost like the detective Charlie chan Off by
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one letter. Anyhow of our commitment is to deliver a peace of mind to
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the businesses, the small to mid sized businesses that we serve all while doing
1:26
it with a five star, world class client experience that you don't typically associate
1:32
with. It helped us people. All right, thanks Charlie, glad to
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have you back. And we've got John here Who've gotten to work with over
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the years, and I'll let John introduce himself and give you a little bit
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of his background. We're glad to have you here. Great, Well,
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it's good to be with you, David and the team, Bill and Charlie.
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And my name is John Kirkshank. I'm the CEO of a company called
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j mc squared. It's a civil, instructural and aering company based in Los
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Angeles, but we do work all across the country. And also I know
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our topic is going to get into effective communication and leadership, and so I'll
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also add for the group that I'm currently the mayor and the city of Rancho
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Palace Berties and I'm currently a candidate for Los Angeles County Supervisors. So some
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of those two organizations might come into play on this great topic that you have
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for us today. David, thanks for having me. Absolutely, we're glad
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to have you here. And yeah, I mean we've been talking about communication
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and some boundaries over the last couple episodes of our podcast and over the last
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few weeks just the clients I've been working with. You know, how do
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we effectively manage our team, particularly like in checking in with them and delegating
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wisely, you know, leading them essentially how we lead ourselves. So you
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know, this this theme is where we're going to be focusing on tonight,
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and we'll be talking about personal stories and challenges and rewards, particularly as business
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owners ourselves. How do we how would be navigated that those challenges because we
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all know as business owners we have to delegate. We cannot do all things
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that's not effective or sustainable. Uh. And so you know, I think
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we'll just start with the concept of kind of the art of delegation because this
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is really really key, uh and understanding what that is. You know,
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how do you how do you delegate? Defining it here and why it's important
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in team management, and you know, eizing the balance of role and test
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there. So maybe Charlie, I will just ask you to start with us
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a little bit because you work with a team in the cybersecurity world supporting them,
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But what would you say kind of for you, what would you define
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delegation as from from your perspective, well, yeah, absolutely so. Regardless
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of how well you hire in terms of bright people, people with the right
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culture fit, it's still gonna feel like pulling teeth and just almost painful to
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have to delegate at first, because what takes, you know, maybe something
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that you could do in your sleep, it takes you a ton more effort
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to ensure that you pass it off to somebody else who's going to do it
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with excellence. And so just embracing the fact that it's going to be thirty
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times harder to get somebody else leveled up to do something that you could do
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without even thinking has helped, you know, me personally to embrace the delegation
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and understand, like you said, that it's not sustainable if we are constantly
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the bottleneck, and so learning to develop others and invest in our people and
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and and putting the time, energy, and and and and patients to level
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them up, and also putting together good documentation and process flows so that way
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decision making doesn't get bottled next to us. Mm hmm. Bill, I
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want to ask you this question because you're talking about writing your leadership book,
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but in delegation, could you talk to a little bit about in there's a
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balance of controlling and trusting those in what you're delegating to. You could just
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talk a little bit about that. As from a leadership perspective, how do
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you do how do you do that in delegating? And so as Jim Collins
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said, get the right people on the boss, I've also heard it said
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get the right people on the right seats on the boss. But you know,
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I've always been I've always leaned more towards the laissez faire style of leadership
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than the micromanaging side of things. And you know, it's it's always for
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me been about finding the right people, the people who can do the job
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without much supervision, because there are always things that the leader has to do
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that don't provide time to do the other things. That's why you get that's
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why you delegate, is because like well, to go with an early example
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of my leadership experiences, I was in charge of cal Poly's Roslop Committee,
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and because I was able to get the right people into their positions, I
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was able to go and deal with things like like risk man with the schools,
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risk management with Osha, both Kalosha and the school's Osha with you know,
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with the media and and tournament and all the other all the other things
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that that most people don't know you have to go through to get a to
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get a rose float to go down Pasadena Boulevard on on the first of January,
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and uh so, uh so, Yeah, in some ways I agree
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with Charlie. It can certainly be pulling teeth to get that first delegation out,
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you know, but once you once you get used to delegating those things
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and you see that the job gets done well, it gets a lot easier
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to to do. You know it, You don't even though you may not
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have any teeth left, You're you're starting to eat oatmeals. So let me
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let me come to John, because this is something John and I worked on
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and I think very effectively, John, Like, what are the benefits of
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getting that delegation done effectively? Right? Because I know that it's so important
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in working with you in your organization, getting the right we got maybe got
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the right people in the right spots. Okay, that's like important. But
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then it's like, okay, how do we you know delegate that? How
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does that? How have you seen that John affect productivity or team member growth
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or engagement, what's been your experience or it could talk about the city as
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well for that matter. No, I mean I love talking about my company,
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and you know, having delegation is clearly important. Like Charlie and Bill
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just talked about, it's hard at first. It's hard to give up what
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you love to do and what you can do well to others that maybe don't
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have the same skill set, but you want them to be as good as
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you. And I think what I've realized is that nobody's the same as any
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of us, and so we have to play to people's strengths and weaknesses.
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And what we found in my company where we have two different departments, I
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need to rely on the department heads to be able to not only run their
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departments, but also communicate with each other and teach each other as well.
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So you're not only he delegate to them, but you're teaching them how to
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delegate as well, because that is a difficult thing, and I think for
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me, I think the one thing I try to emphasize is that just like
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we've been saying that they're not going to be exactly like you, don't expect
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people to be exactly like you. Let them be who they are and guide
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them in the ways that maybe they have some weaknesses and just be patient.
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Patient is a hard thing as a business owner because you do have a lot
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of clients that are breathing down your neck. They're calling you, and there's
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a problem. They don't necessarily call your employees. I mean, they might
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start at your employees, but you don't want them yelling at your employees either.
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And then, I guess the other side of it is, in today's
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competitive world, for great employees, you want to make sure their jobs are
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fulfilling. So if you're always taking tasks away from them and you're always just
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saying, you know, I'll just take care of it and do it myself,
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then you're taking away what they're there for, and that's to grow as
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a professional. And so you not only think of it from your perspective and
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the company's perspective, You've got to think of it in terms of what their
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job growth is and what they're looking for. And the best people are always
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the ones that want to continue to grow. So it's a challenge, but
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it's a challenge worth taking absolutely, absolutely, you know. So, you
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know, we talked about a little bit about these but I want to take
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a little bit deeper into some of these common maybe pitfalls that you might fall
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into when you're delegating, especially when you're near Like you said you John,
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You're like, I want to delegate, but I just don't know how to
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do this well. So I like us to kind of think a little bit
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about where have you been in that? And and and John and all of
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us are consultans in some way, if some form or fashion, And I'll
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just start with one one of mine, and then maybe I'll come back to
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you, Charlie Is. I would delegate a task and I knew how much
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time I would take me to do the task, and either I would delegate
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to that amount of time or I wouldn't even tell the time, because I
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just kind of in my mind figured I knew the time like this would take,
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this is the task, and I would delegate the task, and I
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didn't tell the person like how much time it should take. So inevitably it
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took longer and or much longer than I anticipated. I'm like, holy moly,
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I didn't expect you're gonna take that long to do the task. But
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the pitfall was I didn't articulate how much time I thought the task would take,
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and they didn't tell me either. They just took the task and ran
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with it, like, Okay, I'll do the task. So I just
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want you, guys, and I would love to go round robin here,
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and you may have multiple ones, but just to speak to a particular pitfall
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to be aware of when you're delegating to somebody. So Charlotte, just start
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with you, yeah, David. So, the biggest pitfall I tried to
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be conscious of is letting the team members that I'm delegating to let them know
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what needs to be done, what needs to be accomplished, and not getting
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so attached to the how to portion because you know, from the beginning we
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should have already focused on bringing in talent right, rock star hunting right.
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So if we're bringing in rock stars, don't tell rockstar how to do something
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right. We want to let them know what needs to be done when,
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like you said, timing, when you need it done by and get out,
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get the heck out of the way, go pick up their dry cleaning,
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right. So that's what the pitfall. I oftentimes get so attached because
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I tend to get into the weeds and I get so attached on how I
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want things done to maybe it's it's actually less efficient than what they could you
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know, a different method that they know of where they could come up with.
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So that's that's a pitfall that I've knowned it would would would I'm just
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gonna quite to clarify, Charlie. So I heard you're saying, maybe not
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get so much into the weeds, would it, But it'd be beneficial for
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them to come who you're delegating to to perhaps then just say here's my plan,
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Like you could tell them them try like I'm not trying to dictate every
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little step, this is what needs to get done, but hearing them then
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tell you their plan, like here's what I would propose to do, so
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that you're like, as a leader, you're then you're just verifying or approving
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their process rather than manage that absolute Yeah, yeah, and yeah. So
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have them come back. Definitely have them come back with you with what they
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they feel is the plan of attack. So that way you could inspect what
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you expect and also at the same time not be spoon feeding them to where
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they're gonna always be expecting you to tell them exactly every step of the way
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you know, because then you're doing them a disservice kind of like what John
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talked about, Like that's not fulfilling if you're just showing up as an order
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taker, like you want to come and you want to add your creative juices
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and your capabilities and be able to step up and figure stuff out, and
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so that you're taking the joy away from them if you don't allow them that
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space, that creativity, that and have their voices be heard and their input
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to be to be valued and to be considered. So absolutely thanks, I'm
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gonna come to you John next. Just you know again, common pitfalls that
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you see, particularly particularly small business. I don't anybody that in delegating to
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their team or others that you've seen or experienced yourself. Well, I mean
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in our business, which is a service business, many times we give a
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price to our clients to complete a project. And so it's not like your
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employees have an unlimited amount of time to actually complete a project, because you
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know you obviously the quicker you do it and the more efficiently you do it,
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you make more money. And on the flip side, of course,
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if they're taking way longer than you estimated, you lose money. So,
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but here's the pitfall that that I've fallen into, even after all these years
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of being in business, that you know, sometimes I get too busy and
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I stop to I at the beginning of a project, you really want to
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make sure that you tell your employees, you know, what the actual goal
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is of that project, like where is it do we need to be at
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the finish line? What do we what is it the product that we're providing?
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Because inherently all employees they and engineers. I should more say engineers,
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because I don't know if this is true in other industries, but engineers love
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to please everybody, and so then they make friends with clients and the client
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will tell them, hey, you know, Kate, can you go ahead
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and add this retaining wall and design this pool over here. And by the
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time you're done, the little project that you had this little fee for ends
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up being this huge project you still have this little fee for. So I
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think it's very important to make sure you teach your employees the how projects are
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run, because they're going to need that skill as well. I have plenty
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of people that have worked for me over the years, and they were wonderful
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when they worked for me, and then when they said to me, I'm
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leaving to start my own company. Honestly, I felt bad that I was
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losing them, but I felt even better that they are going to go off
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and do something on their own, and I was very proud of them.
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So I think I think we have a responsibility too as business owners to you
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know, think about the growth of our employees. And the best way to
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make sure you do that is to give them guidance throughout the project, and
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not just to say, hey, go do this, but tell them,
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you know, maybe say here's what it is, what do you think we
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should be doing? And get their ideas as well, because the path to
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get to the end of a project, many times your employees can figure out
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a better mousetrap and a better way to do it. Even though we think
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we're great at what we do, sometimes they have better ideas. And even
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if they don't have a perfect idea, many times the ideas you can utilize
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them and just make everyone's life better at the company. So I think that's
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the one pitfall. We want to make sure that we don't just let them
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go off in the pasture alone, but to help them along and guide them
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along. Yeah, Well, I think John, as you talked about it.
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We talked about in the book seven Habits and highly effective people talking about
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begin with the end in mind, knowing what do we actually what's the end
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goal? And I've been I've just like you don't have fallone in that pitfall
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of kind. I knew myself, but I didn't articulate it clearly to the
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person, like what is the what is the end goal? What's the objective?
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What would be the desired outcome? Here? Like it was crystal clear
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in their mind. They understood it if I had a document or like John,
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an engineering engineering drawing or something like, here's what the completed one should
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look like. This is you know, the ideal, right, But if
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we don't paint that picture, we just kind of point them in the direction.
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You know, they could be off target, you know, especially they've
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been not much more time. You know, you're they like and somewhere else
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and they come back you I've used all the budget, John, here,
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it is like, uh, I have nobody to blame but myself in that
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regard. I mean, companies like ours, you need project managers that are
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helping guide people to what the end product is and then let them use some
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creativity. Like Charlie was talking about, you don't want to tell the rock
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star how to play that rift. I mean they they they get it.
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I mean they can do soul stuff. But you also need to have some
18:26
some guardrails and some boundaries. And because at the end of the day,
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you're giving a client a product that they're paying for and and so you know
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you need to give them the guidance to get there right. How about you,
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Bill, what what are pitball? Give a common pitfall that you've seen
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in delegating. Oh wow, po Charlie and John took the good ones any
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somebody that is well. In my experience, what what John was saying is
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is absolutely true in that, especially when different departments are making different pieces of
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the end product, is to let make sure everyone understands what that end goal
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is, what that what that end product may be, whether it's whether it's
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a civil engineering project with a retaining wall that doesn't need a pull or or
19:30
or some some kind of widget you know that that can do. You know,
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but one one pitfall that does come to mind is uh expectations that if
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you step in to do things that you don't think they're doing right, then
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your people are going to start expecting you to do that all the time.
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And you can't do that if you're if you're in charge, if you're the
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supreme leader, you have a lot of other things on your plate. And
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if you keep going in and fixing drawings or or or fixing charts or whatever
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it is that needs to get fixed, then then the people down line are
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going to expect, Oh, I don't have to worry about this. I
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mean, the Bill's going to come in and do it. You'll run into
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that with the with the M and O, which I'm currently working with.
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You know, it's like there there's always the temptation to go in and fix
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what the group isn't doing right. But but yeah, but if if you
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do that once, then they're always going to expect you to do it.
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So you have to trust your you have to trust your people. You have
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to trust your leadership to to do what's right, to do the things that
20:56
are best. Even if you get accused of being a micromanager. And that's
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a transition I want I want to get into a little bit of that too.
21:06
But how do yeah, how do we check in, how do we
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you know, with without being micro managing and and I'll come back to you
21:15
because I think this is a you know, you brought raise this issue,
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but how do we you know we've delegated, right, but how do we
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you know, we need to check in on the progress at some point and
21:26
you know, like you were mentioning too, John, But how how what
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does that look like? Bill? And maybe just talk about some scenarios.
21:33
I want to think about different projects or things. As you know, there's
21:36
there's some tasks that are very quick to do and then we have projects that
21:40
could last months or even years, you know, depending on what the project
21:42
is. So there's varying levels. I think of check ins, and so
21:45
I like to get you guys's feedback on what does that look like so that
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you know we're we're supporting the team and we're getting you know, we're successfully
21:56
completing the project or the task and keeping the morale up, the engagement up.
22:03
So Bill, I'll start with you first and then we'll go from there.
22:07
Okay, Well, one one thing I like using our checklist. It's
22:12
really it's really simple. You know, these are the things that need to
22:18
be done, this is when they need to be done by and you can
22:23
set it up now. I mean especially now, you can set it up
22:27
in such a way that you can look at their at these checklists without the
22:30
person ever really even knowing. I mean, not that you should sneak around
22:34
and do this stuff, but you know it's like, hey, you know
22:37
what, I can look and see, Oh, okay, great, Charlie's
22:41
done with his checklists, so we can move on to the next next phase
22:45
of the project. Or or oh there's a few things here that John hasn't
22:51
completed. Let's see, let's see if he's having any difficulty with these particular
22:56
tasks and where we can get him the help he needs, you know.
23:02
And that way, if you have if you have a checklist done up in
23:07
advance, you know, at the beginning, very beginning, then it becomes
23:11
okay, this is just a natural part of the order of how of how
23:15
it works, you know. And that's that's how I like doing it,
23:19
because because I don't like being accused of micromanaging. It's an arrow through the
23:26
heart, I hear you. No, I think that's a great tool,
23:30
especially for routine types of projects and things you know, you do all the
23:33
time, and you've gone through yourself developing that checklist all those steps, so
23:38
that way you could would even talk with that like what I hear you saying,
23:41
without even talking to the person, You could literally if they maintain their
23:44
checklist, you could literally look at their checklists and say like, Okay,
23:47
they've got this, and if they're obviously missing something, that would be your
23:51
cue to like I need to call them, I need, I need to
23:52
get a hold of them and find out what's what's going on here, what's
23:56
the problem with you not complete in the checklist? What's the opportunity for improvement?
24:02
Opportunity for we don't have problems. Yeah, I even have I even
24:07
have checklists for I even have a checklist for myself, you know, and
24:11
uh and every day, you know, I can go to that to the
24:15
day section of the checklist and boom, it's like a B, C,
24:18
D done, and and I can get onto uh, onto the more difficult
24:23
things. Yeah. Well, we don't have Curtis on here tonight, but
24:26
bb B B preaching processes and systems, and that would probably be in there.
24:30
Bill. I work with John particularly because we were like I mentioned earlier,
24:37
Delta Vision is a very robust system. That's just one of many.
24:40
But I think you know, I know, John, I'd love to get
24:41
your input on on this. That's just just checklist, but it's just in
24:45
this idea of a regular check in. What does that look like? How
24:48
is that? How is that successful? And maybe the different types of check
24:52
in based on we talked about different team members, maybe because you're work on
24:56
a variety of different folks as the owner of the company you're working with you
24:59
know, administrative people, technical people, you know. Talked a little bit
25:03
about what does that look like for you? Sure well, I one hundred
25:07
percent agree with Bill in regards to checklists. I love them. Unfortunately for
25:11
me, as I've got several different irons in the fire, being on my
25:15
city council, running a company, and running for another office, I just
25:21
things changed so quickly that I can't keep up with a checklist. So here's
25:25
what I've done. Because engineering is an interesting profession because you're not just dealing
25:30
with your internal staff and people that are creating calculations and plans and construction documents,
25:37
but you're also dealing with different subcontractors and consultants that you need information from,
25:42
like Soiales engineers and others surveyors, and then of course the client and
25:48
architects of course too. So you've got a whole wide variety of people that
25:53
you rely on information being done in a fairly timely manner. People that are
25:59
develops, they don't have a lot of they don't have a lot of patience
26:03
for projects just sitting there while they're paying huge monthly fees on their loans,
26:10
and so the stress level could get fairly high, especially if you're the one
26:12
on the critical path being badgered to get your stuff done tomorrow or tonight or
26:18
whenever. So what I've done is I actually have a person and they're primarily
26:23
an overhead staff, but it's a true coordinator. And this person has a
26:29
personality And David, you of course know you work with Daisy and you've talked
26:33
to her many times. But she has a personality that she can't stand it
26:38
when things are sitting around not getting done. And so pretty much every email
26:44
that goes out to my staff that I expect something done, she's copied on
26:48
that. So I know that when she's copied on that, she's going to
26:52
take the necessary steps to make sure it gets done. Because, as we
26:56
all know, everyone responds different. Believe some people, when you see an
27:00
email they'll get it done, but they'll ignore phone calls or some people you
27:06
know, only take phone calls and they'll ignore emails or texts or whatever it
27:08
is. So everyone has different ways to communicate and motivate, Like some people
27:14
just are motivated by certain things. And so she understands each one of my
27:18
employees ticks, if you will, what gets them going and what doesn't motivate
27:26
them. And also with our clients, she gets to know the clients and
27:29
understand them and motivates them, whether it be getting payment, whether it being
27:33
getting you know, signed contracts or whatever it is. So I feel that
27:37
a real good way to to you know, checking in is to have someone
27:42
on your team that helps you do that check in, especially when I don't
27:45
have the time to be always following up. So I know when she's copied
27:48
it's going to get done, and if it's not getting done, she'll elevate
27:52
it back to me so that I can make that phone call and find out
27:56
what's going on. But that doesn't happen very often, so that that's the
28:00
sort of thing that works really well for me in terms of tasks. Yeah,
28:03
I think that's great, John, Yeah, and I have been working
28:04
with with your team and it is really important. And I think you alluded
28:08
to this too, Bill, that you get in you too are getting the
28:12
right people in the right place. They do respond differently and some people are
28:15
focused and motivated differently. So I think John like getting that person particularly at
28:19
your level, like you said, I need that kind of that oversight and
28:25
helping me and knowing when to call in that when do you need that assistant,
28:30
When do you need that help instead of just trying to do it yourself.
28:33
So relying on those team members really really critical and that helps you.
28:37
Then again, John, not having to micromanage speak brought up to you so
28:41
like, oh, well, that's not my personality to micromanage. I'm one
28:47
of those more trusting people. Unfortunately in the world I probably trust more than
28:51
I should. You know, I always tell people I was born in the
28:53
wrong era where back where handshakes were good enough for contract but I learned very
28:57
early on that that wasn't good enough. And I had a real tough architect
29:02
client back in the late nineties and I remember one time coming back to them
29:07
and saying, man, I did all this extra work for you, and
29:08
you said, you said, you do this this and this for me,
29:11
and and the owner of the company looked at me, he said, is
29:15
it in writing. I'm like, no, we agreed to it on the
29:18
phone. He's like, if it's not in writing, it doesn't exist.
29:22
Sorry, you just learned a lesson and hung up on me. Wow.
29:26
I mean it was pretty nasty, but honestly, I'm glad I learned that
29:30
lesson early on. And unfortunately you really do need to trust but verify as
29:37
they say. Yeah, I'd love to get your input, Charlie, especially
29:41
because your IT background, if you're good with this, because you know there
29:44
is different tools and technologies and maybe digging go in a little deep here,
29:48
but you know, what have you seen being effective especially in our we are
29:55
so varied in our generations right now. I mean, like you said earlier,
30:00
like what people respond to John, and and what do you What are
30:03
you seeing Charlie that is is working successfullly for for teams and organizations, if
30:11
they're using if they're you know, leveraging these tools a checklist, whether you
30:15
know, just feedback on that, you know, because I know sometimes there's
30:19
a tendency maybe to make it overly complicated, which then people don't use either
30:23
where's that middle ground for for for business owners and teams. Yeah, so
30:30
I love what both Bill and John brought up because that's absolutely necessary in everything
30:37
that we do documentation, documentation, documentation. So we have a saying,
30:41
if it's not in a ticket, it didn't it doesn't exist. And so
30:47
because we're all handling, juggling different tasks all the time, if we can't
30:52
go in and search for the ticket to see what was done and what wasn't
30:56
done, then there's no way for us to backtrack and and figure out how
31:00
how we travel to shoot a certain a certain issue, how we solve a
31:03
certain issue. And so speaking of checklists, we we have preset templates with
31:10
all the things of the commonly done tickets already in our ticketing system. So
31:15
all they have to do when they start a ticket is just load that template.
31:19
And then obviously there's little nuances for a specific client or uh, the
31:25
specific person that they're working with, they can modify the checklists and and also
31:32
putting in their time entry and having document their time properly. And that goes
31:37
back to you know, uh, holding people accountable to actually do that same
31:41
thing with projects, put out what the steps are put the estimate of number
31:48
number of hours is going to take and then put in your actual time entry
31:52
so that you can actually gauge what was proposed versus what was the actual Because
31:59
without documentary, without tracking, there's no way to run a business. And
32:05
so absolutely, and just at the end of the day, holding people accountable,
32:08
because if people are not held accountable for doing these things that are the
32:15
standard best practices and operating procedures, they're they're not going to do it.
32:21
And so if you start stocking them, if you start you just you know,
32:27
write them up, do whatever it takes. And obviously we incentivize people
32:30
too. We do shout outs. So we do have a system where we
32:36
give what we call wowpoints to each other for recognizing people that are going above
32:40
and beyond not just just showing up and doing their job, but like actually
32:45
making an effort to make the team better and raise the standards. So well,
32:52
I think you raise some good things about tracking and what that looks like.
32:55
I mean, checklists, We've talked about some differ and systems I've mentioned,
33:00
you know, feltic Vision is one. I think it's it is important
33:05
to do that to have something to track, like you're talking about Charlie because
33:12
where I've I've run into problems and this is where I've run into problems in
33:15
the past. Uh and this isn't per like projects specifically, but I've done
33:20
performance reviews and I've had people been like not aware, like you're you're tracking
33:27
these things, and then it's kind of like a gotcha moment, like,
33:30
oh, I didn't know that, you know. And so if you're not
33:32
having a regular check in with them or a way of looking or they can
33:37
look and they can see where that is. To me, that's a fail
33:42
where we should be having to check in and understanding where we're at in the
33:45
process. Are we on target, off target? We've got to look at
33:49
some metrics and if and I know some people will get pushed back on that
33:54
sometimes, but I think the people that push back, in my Canton opinion,
33:57
are not usually they're not usually getting the job done. And like,
34:00
I don't want to be tracked. I don't want to be visible. But
34:02
the more everybody leans into creating a culture of visibility and transparency, I think
34:08
we all win in that ultimately. But you know, just making sure that
34:15
we're you know, being mindful of that so you know, I want to
34:22
I want to, you know, as we're kind of you know, I
34:23
want to shift it a little bit here. And we've been talking a little
34:27
bit about this from you know, not having to do micromanaging, but and
34:31
we've you know, feel free to add in here as we're finding kind of
34:36
this balance and effectively communicating with with the team. And I like your idea
34:42
too of recognizing and rewarding the effort, Like how we've talked a little bit
34:47
about this, but just want to do a little deeper about building that supportive
34:51
team environment, creating that culture. How have you guys seen that working well?
34:58
Like your wow points, Charlie. I like that and making sure that
35:05
we're creating that members feel valued and supported and not a negative thing. Because
35:10
this idea of this is this is like I'll give you an example too.
35:15
It's not just in the company, but it's externally too. So I was
35:17
talking to a client the other day. She's working on a project as a
35:22
sub working with a subcontractor, and she's like, how do I create an
35:25
environment in which I don't want to be like nagging them and like, what
35:30
is the frequencies I should be checking back on with them about this deliverable that
35:35
they needed to get well. I asked the questions to clarify. Number one,
35:37
I said, kind of like what we were talking about before about beginning
35:40
with the end of mine. I said, have you told them like when
35:44
do you need this buy? Or have you been have you been very specific
35:50
in like I needed and this is what it looks like. And she's like,
35:52
no, that, I just said, kind of get it back to
35:53
me. When when you get it done? Well? I said, well,
35:55
you left it open ended here, so it's bad for you, and
36:00
it's bad for them because now they don't have a define like what's mine,
36:04
and you're feeling like, oh, I'm anxious because I don't know, like
36:07
do I ask again or being my bugging them too? And what I've noticed
36:13
is I don't know if this is just the younger generation or something. But
36:16
then there's people that just won't say anything. So that's I'm just going to
36:20
be quiet. I'm just going to ghost you until somebody comes and knocks on
36:22
my door, which I don't think that's stressful. If I'm I'm waiting to
36:27
hear back from you and I don't know what's going on, right, that's
36:30
a that's a to me, it's creating a negative environment. But they're like,
36:34
well, no news is good news kind of a thing. I'm like,
36:37
well, I think you need to be proactive at least give them an
36:38
update even if you're not done with it, you know. So how do
36:42
we, you know, continue to build a supportives team in an environment?
36:46
And We've talked a little bit with some of these things, but I'd love
36:49
to go a little deeper, and I'll come to you Bill first, because
36:51
I think you brought some ideas here. But how do we create some positive
36:55
ways of interacting building on what you said, like the checklist or you know,
37:00
making sure that we're managing this team effectively. So you want to chime
37:07
in there, Bill, sure, Well yeah, you know, of course,
37:13
establishing your your process at the beginning is certainly key because if you don't
37:21
and then you change or you throw something into the mix, uh you know,
37:25
then later on then it's it's just gonna come as a as a shock
37:30
and it's not gonna go over well. But uh you know, uh,
37:36
Charlie, have some some great ideas there, like the wild points I did
37:40
like I did like that different different incentivize incentivizations for for different outcomes. You
37:50
know, always of course making sure that you incentivize the right outcome. Yeah,
37:55
you don't wanna, you don't want to accidentally incentivize the wrong behavior,
38:00
but uh, you know, and uh and really getting setting up systems,
38:07
systems and processes little doxy there to uh that that allow well your garden to
38:16
weed itself, you know, if you if you set things up right.
38:22
One of my favorite stories about about the garden weeding itself is actually about uh,
38:30
the band Van Halen, and they are notoriously well known for a particular
38:38
addition to the writer to their contracts, and this writer in their contract said
38:46
that if we go to do a concert for you, in the green room
38:50
where we wait to go on stage, there must be multi colored m and
38:54
ms, but no browns, no brown eminems. And it was always just
39:01
assumed that this was just some some you know, high high strung band members,
39:08
you know, little little quirk or something, But it turned out it
39:14
was really genius because they had a lot of high tech, very potentially dangerous
39:23
sets, stage setups, and they knew that if the if the promoter couldn't
39:31
be bothered to take out the brown m and ms, then how could they
39:37
trust the promoter to have the stage set up safely. And so if the
39:44
if there were brown eminem's, they just assumed that it wasn't safe to go
39:49
on stage. They they tear up the green room and leave. But but
39:55
yeah, and you know, and we can we can find ways to you
40:00
that, you know, finding finding little little tricks to uh to make sure
40:06
that that the job is getting done that needs to be done. And uh,
40:12
you know, we can do that through rewards, through penalty, you
40:15
know, sticking carrot if you will, and uh, you know, various
40:21
little things, making sure of course that that we find ways things that in
40:25
that excite the people were trying to excite the people were trying to get to
40:30
do the job because you know, money will work for one person, recognition
40:35
for another, and neither of the twain shall meet, you know, so
40:42
so definitely, there there are ways to do it. That's that's I think
40:46
the way I like best is is get it to get it to do it
40:50
itself. Is that up the systems to uh yeah, yeah, no,
40:55
I mean, if you can, that's a great plan. One of the
40:58
things I wanted to acknowledge John and and I because you know, I was
41:01
working with John last year because he recognized, you know, hey, how
41:04
can I support my team in devalvating And I want to honor that because they're
41:08
not all business owners and put that investment in their team and helping them more
41:14
effective effectively work together. And I just think the more that we can get
41:19
that outside of help if you still of a doctor or a challenge of saying
41:22
hey, let me get another voice. That's the other thing I recognized even
41:25
myself of like the previous companies I worked with, I knew sometimes I wanted
41:30
the staff to talk with me, but there was a barrier that like I
41:34
didn't, they just felt like they couldn't talk to me. And Charlie are
41:37
taking your head there too. So it was like could we bring We brought
41:38
in another outside consultant that that and then's another company so that he would do
41:43
interviews and feedback with the employees that they can open up and say what's working
41:46
or not working right in the communication realm. And so I think investing in
41:52
that will play dividends in the long run. But I think sometimes they don't
41:55
want to see that. But John, I'd love to get your feedback on
41:58
like how you've been encouraging your team and found success here in providing that team
42:04
environment for communication and management. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. My first
42:09
employee that I hired all the way back in nineteen ninety six. I remember
42:15
we went to an interview at a place called Edith Joe's and Redondo Beach,
42:20
and if you've ever been there, it's like a super loud breakfast restaurant.
42:22
So I don't think I heard maybe half of the words he told me.
42:27
I just was excited to have someone come work for me. Very first employee,
42:31
young engineer, and he came to work for me, and back then,
42:36
it was a pretty garage sort of operation, you know, no frills,
42:42
nothing nice like Charlie's office that I see in the background there. And
42:46
after two weeks he came to me on a Friday. Actually, it was
42:51
funny because the first when I met him, he at a suit and looked
42:53
great. By the end of the first week started the second week, I
42:58
saw that his dress code kind of went down, and by the last day
43:00
he literally had ripped teams on in a white T shirt. And he came
43:05
to me in the afternoon and he said, John, you know what,
43:07
or he said, well, he's being more polity, he said, mister
43:10
crookshank, he said, I can't work here. And so my first employee
43:15
that I ever hired for my company only lasted two weeks. So it was
43:20
kind of humbling. But what I realized from there was that you want to
43:25
make sure that people aren't sitting frustrated in their jobs and they have an opportunity
43:30
to have people to communicate. That's one of the things that I find most
43:35
important. And certainly now where it's kind of you know, more on the
43:37
later part of my owning the company and potentially changing my career and becoming you
43:45
know, elected official with a full time salary, I'm not available now either.
43:51
And so the one thing I have available is I have two really great
43:54
department heads that always have an open door policy, and I always see them
43:59
speak into the employees and everyone has an opportunity to ask questions, because there's
44:04
nothing more frustrating than being someone at a job and not really knowing what you're
44:07
supposed to do and what the endgame is and not having a resource to find
44:12
out. And you could write procedures manuals, and I've actually done that,
44:15
and I you know, I read Sam Carpenter's work the system, and I
44:19
kind of in theory believe all that stuff. I think it's important. And
44:23
you know, they talk about the difference between big companies and small companies,
44:28
that big companies have procedures, and that's probably true. And you know,
44:30
when you see big companies, you're always impressed because it's hard just to run
44:35
a small company. Just imagine having one thousand, two thousand employees. One
44:40
thing else we do that I think is an interesting way to provide I guess,
44:47
provide some nice ways of giving someone a n ATA boy without having to
44:53
give the huge bonus checks as we do monthly project or company status meetings.
44:59
And engineers traditionally introverted, as you can imagine. I'm one of the rare
45:02
extroverted engineers. But most engineers they just like to get at their desk and
45:07
crank away. I'm sure Charlie has something similar with people that do cybersecurity.
45:13
You know, people that are highly technical usually aren't people that like to go
45:16
out and give speeches. But one thing that we do, and it's an
45:21
internal thing that you know. I have people that work in Kentucky. I
45:23
have one that's in the Philippines. One down in San Diego. I've got
45:28
an office in Santa Ana and one in Los Angeles, and so we're not
45:30
all together in one office, but every month we do. We all get
45:35
on the teams just like we are here right now, and everyone gets an
45:39
opportunity just to tell us what they've been working on, what they've been doing,
45:44
They anything interesting they've found in their job, and anyone could talk about
45:49
anything. And you know, typically I start and I break the ice,
45:52
and I'll talk a little bit about my campaign, and I'll talk a little
45:55
bit about you know, new projects that are potentially coming down the line,
46:00
and maybe a little bit about the you know, where the economy is going,
46:02
and some of the things that I know, just so that they know
46:06
that I'm still actually working. I'm sure sometimes they think, what's he doing?
46:09
But then I get everyone an opportunity to give us a few minutes of
46:14
of you know, what they're doing. And I think it helps everyone understand
46:19
each other, Like even though we don't see each other every day, we
46:22
can all kind of respect each each person's position and the importance to the organization
46:29
and how each person is an important part of what we do, and how
46:32
we all need each other, and I think it's I think that helps to
46:37
add fulfillment to people's careers. There's a lot of other things we do,
46:42
but I you know, in fairness of time, right now, I just
46:44
want to share this antidote of something that we do in our company. Yeah,
46:47
absolutely, John, and I've seen it firsthand. And you have a
46:51
great team and I'm glad to be been a little bit of part of that.
46:54
So we everyone loved you, David, you a crowd favor with jmc
47:00
squared. They're a great, great team and it's really neat to see.
47:05
It's ne need to see them come together and support you, like you said,
47:07
as you're going into this public office and knowing that, and that's I
47:12
think really unique. Not everyone has that, but they know here's where John's
47:15
going. How do we support him and make sure the company is running while
47:17
he has to go out there and do that. I think it's so wonderful
47:22
to see. And honestly, and and and that's an ideal of business owner's
47:25
ideal is like could they actually step away and let the business run and do
47:30
its thing right? That's the best delegation. And I don't I mean,
47:34
I can step in there of course I'm there, but it can run,
47:36
it doesn't. It's not dependent solely on me, right, So kudos to
47:40
YouTube John for just creating that space and getting that team engaged. So as
47:45
we're kind of wrapping up this tonight, and I appreciate you guys just sharing
47:51
these. You know, we've talked a lot about, you know, the
47:54
art of delegation. How do we do this without micromanaging them and creating this
47:59
support the team. I'd like just you know, and I'll come to you
48:04
first, Charlie, and we'll come back around with Bill and John, and
48:06
then I'll come to final thoughts here. But you know, as as we've
48:09
looked back at that, maybe just some key takeaways or things that you felt,
48:13
Charlie you might want to reemphasize or that were brought you know, that
48:15
come to mind here, key takeaways that you want to leave with the business
48:20
owners that are listening to this. And I'll just put a call out to
48:22
those that are listening to this podcast or when you watch this and you leave
48:27
comments, we love to hear your feedback here. So by all means,
48:30
if you haven't already put comments and given us your thoughts, please do so.
48:34
And if you're finding value here and you're realizing, Hey, what Charlie
48:37
is sharing or John or Bill or myself, please reach out to us.
48:40
We're totally available. We want to hear from you. That's what we're coming
48:44
on here, providing value and giving you feedback because if you feel like this
48:47
is helpful for you, this is how we lead our businesses, is how
48:51
we lead ourselves. So with that, Charlie, I'll come to you and
48:53
we'll go back to Bill and John and wrap us up for the night.
48:57
But Charlie, would you just give us to your last key takeaways here?
49:00
Yeah, at the end of the day, it's no matter what you do,
49:04
whether it's external with your customers or internal in the in the in this
49:08
case with our episode here is it's a human to human business. So you
49:14
want the greatest human need is to be seen, heard and understood. So
49:19
really check in with your folks. I love the huddles that you guys are
49:22
doing. John, we do something similar and uh and just through those connections,
49:29
we're able to uncover and discover discover what what's meaningful. Like we have
49:34
majority of our help de staff in the Philippines and turns out really nice ergonomage
49:39
chairs is what's gonna be be a wild moment for them. So that's something
49:45
we're working on to get all of them so that they can work do their
49:49
best work. And so we were thinking we may have a different idea of
49:53
what what it means to deliver well to our people, but something as simple
49:58
as a comfortable charit to sit in is all it takes. And so just
50:01
make sure you're checking in and and and connecting and letting your people know that
50:07
you care about them. Mm hmm. That's that's huge. Yeah, And
50:10
we talked about that Charlie and our Communication Code episode about care right celebrating people.
50:17
So those of you that missed that episode go back and check out the
50:20
Communication Code that was. That was a fun episode. Bill. How about
50:22
your final thoughts here? You know it all starts listening, listening to the
50:30
actively listening to your people, you know, finding out what makes them tick,
50:36
how you can incentivize them, how you can disincentivize them, and uh,
50:43
yeah, it all, Uh, it all starts with listening. Absolutely
50:47
absolutely, Thanks Bill, how about you, John? Final thoughts of all,
50:52
It's been a real pleasure being with both Bill and Charlie, these two
50:54
guys are super smart and their ideas are great. And I've been taking mental
50:59
notes of things to do as well, So I love the idea of listening.
51:05
I always tell people we have two ears and one mouth, use them
51:07
proportionally. I think there's nothing greater than the joy of building a company and
51:15
running a company, whether it's just yourself or whether it's a thousand people.
51:20
And uh, I love what Charlie was saying about the little things, just
51:24
making sure that your employees are just comfortable things like that. You know,
51:29
don't don't forget about the little things there, there's a you know, those
51:32
are these are the sort of things that add up and they mean a lot
51:36
to your employees and they mean a lot to your clients as well. You
51:39
know, don't don't forget about those little things and and keep a smile on
51:43
your face while you run a company. It's okay to make mistakes. We
51:46
all make mistakes. And then that's why we're having this discussion tonight, so
51:50
we can share good things and bad things. Yeah, and thank you David
51:53
for having me on. Absolutely, John No, it's a pleasure always glad
51:58
to have you guys here to share the roundtable. I feel really honored to
52:04
have you guys here, and yeah, I listening looking at those details.
52:10
I agree with you, John, it's so rewarding to create a team and
52:14
that that you it's it's a win together, lose together kind of mentality.
52:20
Hey, we all can win together, and we all we all kind of
52:22
the challenges. We're all affected this. But when you when you live that
52:25
way, you know, to me, it's very very powerful and and it's
52:30
attracting those people like you talked about, Charlie, that want to be a
52:32
part of that. They're like, man, I want to be a part
52:35
of this organization. I see where you're going, and I'm willing to put
52:37
in the hard work because I know it's worth it. So I appreciate you
52:40
guys all sharing your insights here. Thank you guys for for listening and following
52:45
along the podcast. Again, you can share this if it resonated with you.
52:51
We we appreciate you subscribing and liking and all that good stuff wherever you're
52:54
finding us watching this or or listening to it. And we will be back
53:00
again with future episodes, So continue to check back on the Business Roundtable podcast
53:06
on behalf of Bill, Charlie and John We really appreciate you guys listening,
53:08
have an amazing day. We'll talk you later. Bye. All great,
53:13
I guess, Thank you.