Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #42: Interview with Robert Lattanzio, Executive Director of ARCH Disability Law Centre, Toronto | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA | September 17, 2025

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #42: Interview with Robert Lattanzio, Executive Director of ARCH Disability Law Centre, Toronto | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA | September 17, 2025 · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
• 0:19
  invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
• 0:22
  Remarkable World Commentary.
• 0:24
  Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:46
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:49
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
• 0:58
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:14
  I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:23
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:28
  I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
• 1:32
  author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
• 1:39
  You may know me from a few headline moments.
• 1:42
  In November of 2010, I won a landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to
• 1:52
  make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
• 1:56
  not just to cited ones.
• 1:59
  In July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than 2000 disability
• 2:08
  groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 2:14
  And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's
• 2:23
  Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:30
  When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio,
• 2:37
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:42
  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies make their gadgets
• 2:49
  talk back in plain language.
• 2:52
  Everything I do circles.
• 2:54
  One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
• 3:03
  I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived
• 3:12
  experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
• 3:18
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:23
  let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
• 3:28
  a change maker whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world we're trying to
• 3:36
  build. Rob Lattanzio, it is my pleasure and privilege to welcome
• 3:41
  you to my podcast. Welcome.
• 3:46
  Robert Lattanzio: Thank you so much, Donna.
• 3:48
  Thank you for this invitation.
• 3:49
  It's an absolute pleasure to be on your remarkable podcast.
• 3:54
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So, Rob, over the past nine years we have collaborated
• 4:04
  on some really great landmark cases.
• 4:09
  How would you describe the working chemistry that has evolved between us?
• 4:16
  And what, in your view, makes a lawyer advocate partnership thrive?
• 4:25
  Robert Lattanzio: That's a great question.
• 4:27
  I really like that, Donna.
• 4:28
  It's a great way to start this.
• 4:31
  The first word that comes to my mind is trust.
• 4:34
  I think there are probably a lot of other words that would really accurately describe
• 4:43
  what what makes for a really good partnership in this kind of context?
• 4:49
  I think and I'm thinking, you know, as you began your,
• 4:54
  your, intro your landmark case at the federal court years ago might have
• 5:04
  been you know, one of the first times that we,
• 5:07
  we worked together, we were representing the Alliance for Quality of Blind Canadians and
• 5:11
  as an intervener. And so I think it just makes me think how important that is,
• 5:17
  like part of part of the, the sort of trust which is the first word
• 5:21
  that kind of came to mind.
• 5:22
  But you know, having, having a shared understanding and having you
• 5:30
  know, the benefit of that, right in, in, in doing the work that we do
• 5:35
  when there are these pre-existing relationships,
• 5:38
  both organizationally and on an individual basis,
• 5:43
  we you know, those relationships are based on mutual respect,
• 5:47
  right? The shared commitment to advancing disability rights and full inclusion,
• 5:52
  And shared values and missions and, and and and these are all really important
• 5:59
  things that get built up over time.
• 6:03
  You know, maybe in our case, we can throw in the love for the Habs as
• 6:06
  well. Right. Which which helps in terms of our go Habs go with,
• 6:10
  with you know, I mean, I think you know, and,
• 6:14
  and and certainly you know, these are important things.
• 6:18
  I mean, in the work that we do, we, we develop friendships,
• 6:21
  close friendships, you know, organizationally, we have close you know,
• 6:26
  close, close ties with other organizations.
• 6:29
  And I think, you know, our, our friendship stems from the work that
• 6:33
  we do. But it goes beyond that, right?
• 6:36
  Like this work, you know, which is why the community development work
• 6:40
  and capacity building work that we do is so important.
• 6:44
  And it's so vital to ultimately the, you know,
• 6:47
  the taking on of systems, right, systems changing work and test case
• 6:51
  litigation. I think it contributes to important work,
• 6:57
  like identifying the issues, identifying strategic opportunities for
• 7:02
  change. Being able to to have a deeper understanding of the issues,
• 7:07
  you know, having these ongoing relationships.
• 7:11
  It also means continuity in the work.
• 7:13
  Right? And in the development of that work and of those advocacy strategies I think it
• 7:21
  allows, you know, perhaps even more creativity and allows for more risk to be
• 7:27
  taken as well in developing positions and arguments.
• 7:30
  So so I think, you know, in the work that we do,
• 7:34
  I mean, we certainly on behalf of arch, we couldn't do the work we do without without
• 7:39
  you, Donna, and without other advocates and other organizations that we work with.
• 7:44
  It's certainly, certainly not possible, nor nor would we ever want to do that in
• 7:49
  isolation. It's just core to to how we we do our work.
• 7:57
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We sure have a brilliant record to be very proud of,
• 8:02
  don't we?
• 8:05
  Robert Lattanzio: Exactly. And I and I think that, you know, that goes to,
• 8:09
  again, the, the importance of building that sort of mutual respect in,
• 8:15
  in, in taking on the type of work that we do.
• 8:19
  Right. Having having the type of work relationship,
• 8:26
  you know, that allows for that allows, for example,
• 8:32
  difficult conversations to be had.
• 8:34
  I mean, this is so generally, you know, we're talking about the sort of
• 8:38
  advocate lawyer relationship or, you know, organisation to organisation type
• 8:43
  of relationship. Some of this also applies.
• 8:45
  Or a lot of this applies in the more traditional Additional solicitor client
• 8:49
  relationship as well. And it's really difficult to work through complex issues
• 8:57
  thinking about, for example, at mediation or how to frame a particular
• 9:01
  argument within, within a complex legal framework or a complex set of facts or
• 9:09
  whatever, you know, whatever may be presented.
• 9:13
  Really difficult to work through that in a way that's meaningful for everyone and in the
• 9:17
  way that you know, represents everyone's voices.
• 9:20
  If there isn't that level of of trust building.
• 9:25
  Right, and that that mutual you know, that confidence.
• 9:29
  Right. And, and the, the mutual respect that happens.
• 9:32
  So it is it is so critical.
• 9:35
  You know, it's critical generally in the practice of law.
• 9:37
  Right. But in the work we do, again, you know,
• 9:40
  we couldn't do the work.
• 9:43
  And it goes beyond litigation, just all the work we do,
• 9:46
  the community building, the capacity building,
• 9:48
  community development, our projects, law reform.
• 9:51
  We just couldn't do that without, you know, without really taking the time to
• 9:57
  to really foster and maintain meaningful relationships in communities.
• 10:05
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, many listeners may not realize that art is a specialty legal aid clinic focused
• 10:14
  exclusively on disability rights.
• 10:19
  How would you explain its unique mandate and place within Canada's access to
• 10:28
  justice landscape?
• 10:32
  Robert Lattanzio: Yeah. Thank you for that question, Donna.
• 10:34
  We are funded primarily by Legal Aid Ontario.
• 10:40
  We are a test case. Poverty law, community legal clinic.
• 10:45
  And as you mentioned, we practice exclusively in advancing
• 10:49
  disability rights within a provincial mandate.
• 10:53
  We also, beyond our provincial mandate, will take on some work that on a policy level
• 11:00
  that has national and international implications as well.
• 11:05
  And some of the cases that we take, all of our cases are you know,
• 11:10
  from within Ontario. But but they may have national implications,
• 11:16
  right. And we we do have, you know, we've we've I think we've had a
• 11:24
  very unique and important place within the disability rights movement in Canada.
• 11:31
  Arch was incorporated.
• 11:33
  So a bit of a history lesson if if that's okay.
• 11:36
  Donna. We were we were incorporated in 1979 in December and opened our doors in January
• 11:43
  of 1980. So this is our 45th year.
• 11:47
  And so it's been, you know, it's been a while.
• 11:50
  I certainly wasn't around in those days here at the office.
• 11:56
  Anyway, I was around. So the work that we do is,
• 12:02
  is, is still you know, very, very similar to to the sort of the,
• 12:09
  the the thinking and, and and the, the those early days in terms of
• 12:17
  what art can be you know, we we are we, we continue to be a test case
• 12:21
  clinic. We do systemic work.
• 12:24
  We do that in different ways.
• 12:26
  We do law reform work, policy research.
• 12:29
  We again work alongside community.
• 12:32
  We do public legal education and rights education community development and capacity
• 12:38
  building. And and in addition to the test case work,
• 12:42
  we also do The sort of direct legal services work as well.
• 12:47
  We'll do various types of, of legal work.
• 12:51
  And and we also offer a service to all persons in Ontario with disabilities that
• 12:59
  allows for people to get free, confidential legal advice for this service in
• 13:07
  particular, regardless of of financial eligibility for other services,
• 13:12
  financial eligibility would, would, would apply and on on various areas of
• 13:18
  law. So we, we get calls from people and are contacted by people with disabilities all
• 13:24
  over the province a number of different areas of law.
• 13:28
  And we provide advice and then we may refer if those cases are not cases that we can help
• 13:36
  with and others, we, we can take on and provide direct legal representation and some
• 13:44
  of those, you know, would be identified as test cases,
• 13:46
  and we would proceed in that way.
• 13:50
  So we you know, I think along the way, I think there were a lot of a lot of firsts,
• 13:58
  you know, for for arch, I think arch when it opened its doors,
• 14:02
  really was the, the sort of first of its kind,
• 14:05
  right. As a, as a disability rights clinic in Canada.
• 14:10
  And you know, I think arch has been a leader,
• 14:14
  you know, since that time in disability rights test case litigation.
• 14:19
  We've either represented persons with disabilities as a party to the litigation or
• 14:24
  or groups as interveners.
• 14:27
  So I think what's really interesting about arch and I,
• 14:30
  you know, and I think there are a lot of things but as you know,
• 14:35
  arch was one of the reasons I even went to law school,
• 14:38
  let alone, you know, wanting to work here.
• 14:41
  It really was an organization that was born out of the disability rights movement in
• 14:49
  Canada. It was founded by the coming together of disability advocates and leaders at the
• 14:55
  time to essentially create a space where advocacy efforts would be grounded in legal
• 15:02
  discourse and through legal challenges.
• 15:06
  In many ways is perhaps a product of of the need to legitimize the movement by creating a
• 15:14
  community legal clinic that can provide legal expertise on issues of of greatest importance
• 15:21
  to people with disabilities and to seek systemic change through legal challenges and
• 15:27
  other legal work. You know, to, to build that kind of legal expertise
• 15:31
  that was really focused on disability, but but was within situated within,
• 15:37
  you know, disability communities. Right.
• 15:40
  Which I, which I always thought to be, you know,
• 15:42
  just just just incredibly like, as, as a, as a legal practitioner,
• 15:47
  just incredibly fascinating, right.
• 15:49
  To, to practice in that way.
• 15:52
  Which drew me here given my interest in disability rights,
• 15:55
  but but it's just a remarkable way to practice law because we,
• 16:01
  we practice law in a very holistic way.
• 16:04
  Right? We don't when when issues come before us,
• 16:08
  however, they may come before us.
• 16:09
  We don't think about it as well.
• 16:11
  Okay. We will be represented to you know, to represent at this court on,
• 16:20
  on this issue, we, we first take a step back and kind of work with our communities and
• 16:25
  figure out what this issue is.
• 16:26
  And through a holistic approach, you know, we really start thinking about,
• 16:30
  well, what's what are the the sort of the key issues and what are the strategic priorities
• 16:36
  and, and how can we be most effective And sometimes litigating isn't the,
• 16:42
  you know, the only answer, or maybe not the most effective answer.
• 16:46
  Or maybe there are other things that need to happen before.
• 16:49
  And so we we we have all that at our disposal as we work through with our communities.
• 16:55
  We work through these issues.
• 16:59
  Another thing I would say to keep in mind, you know,
• 17:01
  as I talked a little bit about the history and,
• 17:05
  and how arch began you know, through through the leadership of the day
• 17:11
  within the communities. But we should keep in mind that at that time,
• 17:15
  disability wasn't even protected in most human rights legislation.
• 17:19
  It certainly wasn't in Ontario.
• 17:22
  Nor was disability included in the equality provision in the early versions of the
• 17:27
  Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
• 17:30
  So, you know, very different landscape, right?
• 17:33
  Like this. This would have been quite revolutionary at the time.
• 17:38
  And and so, you know, one of the first significant files that arch
• 17:43
  took on was to work with disability groups with,
• 17:48
  with advocates and leaders in the disability communities as legal counsel to,
• 17:54
  to amend Ontario's human rights code to include disability as a protected ground.
• 18:00
  So it was you know, these are very yeah, very,
• 18:03
  very different times you know than than maybe we,
• 18:09
  we remember. Right. So I think it was it really was the first and only place like it,
• 18:16
  you know, at the time within disability communities across Canada.
• 18:20
  And like I said, today, we really continue to work closely with our
• 18:25
  communities. We continue with our test case litigation practice and all of our policy and
• 18:30
  law reform, work and rights, education work and so on.
• 18:33
  As I mentioned earlier And and as I as I mentioned,
• 18:38
  certainly if there's anyone who wants to contact us for some legal advice and who's in
• 18:44
  Ontario, please do not hesitate to give us a call.
• 18:47
  And if it's something that we cannot help you with,
• 18:50
  we would certainly do our best to refer you to a place that can help you.
• 18:56
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay, now, you articled at arch in 2003, and eventually you became the executive
• 19:05
  director in 2015, I think.
• 19:09
  Yeah. What lessons do from those early years still shape your leadership style today?
• 19:21
  Robert Lattanzio: Well I can tell you that there have been many lessons along the way.
• 19:28
  Yeah, it feels like a long, a long sort of journey.
• 19:34
  There's there's one that comes to mind in particular and that's I think always
• 19:37
  influenced my, my approach and my leadership and my mentoring.
• 19:41
  And I think it's to fully understand and appreciate the importance of what we do.
• 19:51
  You know why we do it?
• 19:53
  Why what we do matters to our clients and our communities as as a nonprofit with a with a
• 20:02
  mandate like ours. There's I find there's a weight and a responsibility that comes with
• 20:08
  it. And we need to always strive for excellence in everything that we do.
• 20:16
  Our clients and our communities deserve nothing less.
• 20:19
  Right. In my experience, it's very seldom that the easiest solution is
• 20:26
  the most effective and impactful.
• 20:28
  Right? So we need to really work at it.
• 20:31
  We need to be creative.
• 20:32
  We need to be critical of everything.
• 20:37
  So there's a so if I was to encapsulate that in a word,
• 20:40
  you know, I think the lesson I really try to impart is there's a high level of rigor that
• 20:46
  is always required in everything we do.
• 20:50
  Never let up. And I think I've learned.
• 20:54
  That a while ago, I guess, but that we are often,
• 21:00
  or quite frankly, always outresourced by opposing parties and big firms and
• 21:07
  governments and, and so while we may be outresourced,
• 21:11
  we should never be outworked.
• 21:14
  And that's, you know, something I always try to drill in everyone
• 21:18
  here who works here. I've learned over the years,
• 21:22
  you know, different ways of, of of continuing to punch over your weight,
• 21:27
  you know, like above your weight class. And and I think that's what our movement and our
• 21:34
  communities continue to do so effectively as well.
• 21:37
  Right. So so I really try to to continue to bring that into everything that we do.
• 21:46
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Let's dive into some of our victories, our 2018 Canadian Human Rights
• 21:56
  Commission commission settlement with the Greater Toronto Airport Authority.
• 22:03
  And this was was a turning point for accessible air travel.
• 22:10
  Right. What strategic decisions inside arch made that success possible in your
• 22:20
  opinion?
• 22:26
  Robert Lattanzio: Well, I really like this question.
• 22:27
  I'm going to begin with I thought.
• 22:31
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You would. Yeah.
• 22:32
  Robert Lattanzio: Well, I. Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's something here that
• 22:38
  Maybe this will come up later, but I, I, I want to start by talking about
• 22:43
  how, you know, it's easy for us to, to talk about you know,
• 22:51
  good decisions and litigation and strategy and so on.
• 22:54
  But it, it it always, you know, first and foremost comes down to
• 23:01
  our clients, right, persons with disabilities who come to us,
• 23:04
  who are in vulnerable situations, who are in crisis,
• 23:08
  who have a lot of a lot going on.
• 23:15
  Right. They're, they're they're not in in a position where you know,
• 23:23
  at times, you know, they feel they don't have choices,
• 23:29
  Places. But there is there is a level of of courage,
• 23:33
  right. And a level of, of strength that comes with this.
• 23:37
  Right. We couldn't do what we do if it not for our clients who come to us and,
• 23:44
  and, and put themselves through the rigors of what is,
• 23:48
  you know, litigation and and they do this, you know,
• 23:52
  not only on behalf of themselves, but do this for others.
• 23:56
  Right? They do this to help others across the province,
• 24:03
  across the country. And and you're one of those people.
• 24:06
  So thank you. I think it just needs to be stated,
• 24:10
  right, that we would never have, you know, all of these all of these decisions
• 24:14
  that law students read and, you know, and sometimes it becomes a little
• 24:18
  bit disconnected. And I and I say this sometimes when I,
• 24:21
  when I lecture to, to law students, you know,
• 24:24
  various law schools and you know, there's a person behind that,
• 24:27
  right. There's a family behind that, and there are circumstances that are really
• 24:31
  difficult behind that.
• 24:32
  And as lawyers, we need to really understand that.
• 24:36
  We need to really factor that in.
• 24:38
  We need to really make sure that we are appreciating all of those factors as we
• 24:45
  develop our strategies, as we negotiate, as we do all the things that
• 24:50
  we do. Right. So that said, so you were our wonderful client in,
• 24:57
  in, in in that case, as you said.
• 24:59
  And, and I think I think also, you know, important to kind of think about
• 25:04
  how when we take on a test case you know, it's it's the result of a pretty lengthy,
• 25:12
  like, thorough process, you know, that assesses the merits of each
• 25:17
  case and evaluates the strategic impacts that the case may have.
• 25:22
  And that could be both positive and negative. I mean, we're always thinking about the
• 25:25
  negative. Maybe, you know, sometimes more than the positive,
• 25:30
  right? We we we have to take many factors into consideration.
• 25:35
  And, you know, it's includes our areas of practice,
• 25:38
  priority areas strategic priorities, our strategic plan,
• 25:43
  our board of directors, our communities or partners,
• 25:47
  projects and research that we might be doing.
• 25:50
  So we try to have all of this interconnected.
• 25:52
  Right. And of course you know what we learned through all of our direct legal services with
• 25:57
  our clients with disabilities, you know, and and that's where,
• 26:01
  you know, and again, so we have clients who bring in,
• 26:04
  you know, issues that that really allow us to then bring forward these really important
• 26:12
  issues before an administrative tribunal or a court you know,
• 26:18
  gives us that opportunity to make arguments that we've been wanting to make and,
• 26:22
  and to hopefully move the needle.
• 26:25
  Right. Hopefully, you know, dismantle barriers that we had identified
• 26:29
  within within those particular sectors.
• 26:32
  So transportation in this case, you know, it continues to be a priority for
• 26:36
  us. We actually recently were successful at the Federal Court of Appeal in a case
• 26:42
  involving accessible air travel against Air Canada.
• 26:46
  So, you know, it continues to be an ongoing priority for us.
• 26:53
  And you know, in your case also raised very important issues.
• 26:57
  And, and that opportunity, right, to remove systemic barriers.
• 27:02
  And so I find myself going in a lot of different directions on this one.
• 27:06
  So I apologize, but I want to make another point.
• 27:10
  If you if you're okay with that.
• 27:13
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Go ahead.
• 27:14
  Robert Lattanzio: So so as you said, you know this was a settlement and and I'd like to talk about
• 27:20
  that a little bit. Just the importance of settlements,
• 27:24
  you know? I keep on talking about test cases and litigation generally,
• 27:29
  and we've talked about, you know, some important decisions like,
• 27:33
  like your website decision that that you started,
• 27:38
  you know, the podcast talking about and those are really important,
• 27:42
  you know, when a court pronounces on on an issue like this,
• 27:46
  you know and advances accessibility or advances equality in that way it's,
• 27:54
  you know, it's sort of the, the end goal of litigation,
• 27:57
  right? To some degree.
• 27:59
  But but I want to really focus on the importance of settlements as well.
• 28:05
  You know settlements can have just as seismic an impact on,
• 28:10
  on dismantling systemic barriers.
• 28:13
  And, you know, while more often than not, there are confidentiality clauses that
• 28:18
  prevent us from talking about them settlements can be negotiated to be,
• 28:23
  like, really pivotal in dismantling barriers.
• 28:27
  They're not just about personal or private remedies.
• 28:30
  They can really be an effective tool in targeting systemic issues and in targeting
• 28:37
  barriers. So just wanted to yeah, just wanted to,
• 28:42
  to kind of flag that and as lawyers, you know,
• 28:46
  we always work from the starting point of, well,
• 28:49
  what is in the best interest of our client, right?
• 28:51
  What is our client instructing us to do?
• 28:54
  And what do they want to get out of the litigation?
• 28:58
  And so, you know, as arch as well, like we always align the larger strategic
• 29:04
  consideration about how the litigation furthers the goal of equality barrier removal
• 29:11
  and full inclusion. And it could be that you know,
• 29:14
  negotiating a settlement, you know, may be the the way to effectively
• 29:21
  achieve, you know, that that goal right of the client?
• 29:26
  Not necessarily just having a decision.
• 29:29
  So again, for, you know, for the sort of advocacy work that we do,
• 29:34
  we always have to think about all the various ways and the various strategies to get us
• 29:40
  where ultimately we want to be.
• 29:44
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, arch also played a very pivotal role in the 2019 passage of the Accessible Canada
• 29:53
  Act. What behind the scenes advocacy steps were most critical,
• 30:02
  and how did you keep community voices front and center during the legislative
• 30:12
  push?
• 30:16
  Robert Lattanzio: Yeah. There's no doubt the passing of the Accessible Canada Act marked was.
• 30:23
  Well, it marked one of a number, I guess, of watershed moments for,
• 30:28
  for our movement in this country.
• 30:31
  And and again, you know, a testament to the work that you do,
• 30:36
  Donna to the work that others were doing.
• 30:39
  You know, I think this really was one, you know,
• 30:45
  one of a number of of, of moments in our history that we can point
• 30:50
  and really sort of think about, you know, the the,
• 30:59
  the leadership, you know, that that led to that,
• 31:02
  to those successes. Right.
• 31:03
  And, and the and the, the coming together as a movement,
• 31:06
  you know, that that made that possible.
• 31:10
  So our work on that was, was was multifaceted for sure.
• 31:16
  We certainly devoted tons of resources as, as,
• 31:20
  as you would imagine and as you did as well.
• 31:23
  So we wanted, we wanted to basically ensure you know,
• 31:27
  maybe three things. I can sort of bring it down to three things.
• 31:31
  We wanted to make sure that we were there to provide the technical expertise to assist
• 31:37
  with the advocacy efforts by our communities.
• 31:42
  We we also wanted to support and assist with the coalition building,
• 31:47
  you know, and building capacity amongst communities and,
• 31:52
  you know, ultimately creating spaces to bring people together,
• 31:55
  no matter the level of, of sophistication around law and legislative
• 31:59
  processes or no matter the disability language.
• 32:04
  You know, we have two official languages in Canada.
• 32:08
  And of course, we have a number of sign languages and geography.
• 32:14
  Right. It brought it brought so many of us together that that we otherwise wouldn't be
• 32:20
  together. You know, if not for the ACA.
• 32:24
  And third, you know, we we also embarked on, you know,
• 32:30
  in the work that we normally do, which is work through our own submissions,
• 32:35
  you know, and at every opportunity, you know,
• 32:37
  meeting with, with MPs, meeting with our communities,
• 32:40
  meeting with senators drafting submissions, making oral submissions at every stage of it.
• 32:48
  So we, you know, we also did did our work in that way,
• 32:51
  you know, on behalf of our communities in that way.
• 32:55
  So some of the work, you know, included the one I would sort of point to
• 33:00
  first was very in-depth, detailed analysis of the first draft of the
• 33:07
  bill before it went to the second reading.
• 33:10
  And this is like a very, you know dense analysis of every provision of
• 33:17
  the bill, and the idea being that, you know,
• 33:20
  we really wanted to give our communities, the real audience here,
• 33:23
  our communities, to give them tools in, in sort of understanding the bill and what it
• 33:31
  meant and possible implications, implications on other things that,
• 33:36
  you know, maybe weren't as as clear.
• 33:39
  And it was it was sort of before we got into the recommendation side of things.
• 33:44
  I mean, we started thinking about recommendations,
• 33:46
  but we really wanted to make sure that there was this analysis in place,
• 33:51
  like a very detailed analysis.
• 33:53
  And that kind of came, you know, just to, to kind of you hook back
• 33:58
  to what we were talking about earlier, you know, the,
• 34:00
  the importance of relationships and relationship building.
• 34:03
  And, you know, we we had conversations and the Council of Canadians with disabilities
• 34:11
  had asked arch, like, right at the, the onset to coordinate a group
• 34:17
  of disability rights lawyers from across Canada to develop that,
• 34:21
  that comprehensive legal analysis.
• 34:23
  So we we struck you know, essentially an advisory committee.
• 34:28
  And and so we were really trying to bring in people,
• 34:32
  you know, from, from the, the, the earliest possible opportunity.
• 34:39
  And, and so that that kind of started, you know,
• 34:42
  started the ball rolling for us.
• 34:44
  Anyway, the ball was already rolling. But for us,
• 34:46
  it was you know, starting that work with, with,
• 34:49
  of course, you know, the, the late, great you know,
• 34:52
  and, and wonderful Steve Estey, who we miss incredibly.
• 34:58
  And he at the time was the, the national coordinator of the CCD.
• 35:02
  So yeah, we brought in a lot of folks from across the country,
• 35:07
  like lawyers, you know, we were we we had this sort of like,
• 35:11
  lawyer panel and we worked with others like David,
• 35:16
  David Lepofsky. And again, you know, close with Steve and,
• 35:20
  and we wanted to ensure that our communities had an accurate understanding of what,
• 35:26
  what the bill was saying, you know, what the meaning and the impact of
• 35:29
  those provisions actually were like.
• 35:31
  That was really our first priority because we really wanted to create we wanted to create
• 35:36
  accessible spaces for people with disabilities across the country to to talk
• 35:42
  about the bill. But we wanted to make sure that they had the tools to do that.
• 35:48
  So then we, you know, we also created other accessible materials
• 35:51
  breaking down breaking down certain elements of the bill.
• 35:57
  When we got deeper in the, you know, in the advocacy,
• 36:00
  we, we created different, you know, advocacy tools.
• 36:07
  We had you know, we had various different tools,
• 36:10
  plain language. We had open letters, you know,
• 36:15
  we we we basically were trying to, to engage communities in different ways,
• 36:22
  you know, and trying also at the same time, you know,
• 36:25
  trying to build some sort of momentum on certain recommendations and certain advocacy
• 36:32
  pieces and trying to bring create spaces ultimately,
• 36:37
  you know, with the goal to, you know, to have discussions to better
• 36:42
  understand, you know, certain positions and to make sure that we
• 36:46
  all had, you know, the information that we needed.
• 36:51
  So, so I'm not, you know, really talking about having one voice.
• 36:55
  Not at all, actually, to the contrary of that,
• 36:57
  you know, but I think you know, having positions and advocacy efforts that
• 37:02
  are based on, like, accurate, critical, thoughtful understandings,
• 37:08
  right? Like, I think, you know, as far as takeaways go for me,
• 37:13
  it really was like the importance of being properly briefed,
• 37:17
  you know, that rigorous analysis, having that accurate understanding of legal
• 37:21
  implications, like how important that was for communities because we wanted to make sure
• 37:28
  that, you know, whatever advocacy they're doing,
• 37:32
  you know, was, was grounded you know, on accurate information.
• 37:37
  And so that was was one of our, one of our main goals,
• 37:41
  you know, and I think there's just such a an importance in,
• 37:47
  you know, identifying those common points within communities,
• 37:51
  you know, and that allows to, to have those opportunities to start building
• 37:57
  strategies that support and align those common positions.
• 38:01
  Right, and, and creating those spaces, those spaces to,
• 38:05
  to understand those positions that perhaps, maybe a little bit inconsistent or at odds
• 38:11
  and and develop strategies that can support you know ultimately the diversity of voices
• 38:16
  right. And the diversity of the issues.
• 38:19
  So I think there's so much to take away.
• 38:22
  I think as a movement, there's so much to take away from all of
• 38:26
  those advocacy efforts.
• 38:29
  You know, that that had occurred during, during that time.
• 38:34
  I think, again, you know I really want to underscore like,
• 38:39
  it was such a dynamic Experience, dynamic process.
• 38:45
  Like, there were there were as always, you know,
• 38:48
  a lot of different moving parts.
• 38:51
  But, you know, one of the things that that that struck me and there were,
• 38:56
  there were many. But I want to talk a little bit about the the Senate and the Senate
• 39:02
  Committee, the Senate Committee on Social Affairs,
• 39:06
  Science and Technology, which, which ultimately,
• 39:09
  reviewed the bill. At the Senate.
• 39:14
  There was incredible advocacy happening at the Senate as well.
• 39:20
  And traditionally, you know the Senate is is not always traditionally where,
• 39:27
  where you would sort of advocate for, you know,
• 39:30
  big changes to a bill, you know and on this bill,
• 39:35
  you know, we we found the Senate to be so receptive and they understood,
• 39:41
  you know, the concerns that our communities were making and that we were making that, you
• 39:44
  know, recommendations and concerns we were bringing to them.
• 39:48
  And their recommendations, you know, included some very important
• 39:53
  amendments which ultimately were adopted.
• 39:58
  And again, you know, not not that common.
• 40:01
  And, and I think there's, you know, there's there's a lot to be learned
• 40:04
  by that. And you know, there's a lot of you know,
• 40:11
  there's a lot of work still to do, right?
• 40:13
  On the ACA. Right? Like, it hasn't stopped.
• 40:18
  But we we have a bill that you know, as, as always,
• 40:21
  you know, could have been stronger, but I think we as communities can,
• 40:27
  can sort of think about how we can directly sort of trace like the advocacy efforts to
• 40:36
  some of those really important amendments that occurred, you know, whether they
• 40:39
  occurred at the House or the ones that occurred at at the Senate level.
• 40:44
  You know, that really was a product of communities coming together on on particular
• 40:50
  issues in circumstances where maybe there was disagreement on some other issues,
• 40:55
  but there was a coalescing to some degree.
• 41:00
  Right. Like I, you know, as the movement went on,
• 41:02
  as, as the advocacy work went on which, which is,
• 41:05
  I think something that we, we as, as, you know,
• 41:09
  as communities and, and advocates need to kind of learn from and and remember,
• 41:14
  you know, and, and again, again, you know, celebrate the successes as
• 41:20
  well. Right. So yeah, I think, you know, to circle back definitely
• 41:26
  one of the watershed moments for our movement.
• 41:31
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, arch handles both individual cases and systemic law reform work.
• 41:40
  How do you decide when a single complaint should become broader test case for
• 41:50
  national impact?
• 41:57
  Robert Lattanzio: Well, when we take on a case maybe this goes to a reply that I
• 42:06
  shared earlier. We, you know, we think about a number of different factors
• 42:12
  and it stems from, you know, our understandings stem from what what we
• 42:22
  learn, you know, through our clients, through our work, through our experiences
• 42:26
  through our board through our communities our work,
• 42:31
  you know, with partners different projects, the issues that,
• 42:35
  you know, that our clients go through, all of our grassroots work,
• 42:39
  you know so all all of that basically gets kind of,
• 42:46
  like, mushed all together, you know, in this rigorous kind of process of
• 42:51
  selection for our test cases you know, which is,
• 42:56
  which is sort of this thorough, you know, we we we have to think about the
• 42:59
  merits of a case, but we also have to think about all these other kind of factors that go
• 43:04
  into whether this is a case that you know, that is within our mandate and,
• 43:10
  and, and that we that we are well suited for,
• 43:14
  you know, we have to think about our own professional and ethical obligations and so
• 43:20
  on and so forth. So as a systemic test case clinic,
• 43:25
  we you know, again, I mean, not to sound repetitive,
• 43:29
  but we we approach these legal issues from a holistic approach.
• 43:33
  And you know, I think the way we do that is really just to try and really
• 43:42
  understand the legal issue.
• 43:44
  Right. Like to really understand what's going on.
• 43:46
  And, and that's a lot more than what it sounds.
• 43:50
  You know, that could be quite a bit of work. But I think that's your first starting point.
• 43:56
  And, and, and I can't imagine that not being it.
• 44:00
  Right. Because that's going to lead to some problems If you are in a situation where you,
• 44:08
  you know, we kind of get that wrong.
• 44:09
  Right, right. And so, you know, and what I mean by that is,
• 44:14
  is, is really understanding it from the different approaches,
• 44:18
  understanding, understanding the facts, understanding the intersectional pieces at
• 44:23
  play understanding those issues from all of our other work,
• 44:29
  you know, and, and, you know, we'll, we'll consult with experts,
• 44:33
  we'll consult with partners, we'll consult with communities. You know,
• 44:36
  we really will do, of course, our own research understanding the law,
• 44:40
  you know, behind those issues what the courts have said,
• 44:43
  what they what they may say, what they won't say.
• 44:46
  You know, what the jurisdictional issues are? I mean, all those things are are just baked
• 44:50
  into our process. I mean, you know, like any other you know,
• 44:54
  there needs to be that level of of assessment.
• 44:59
  But but I think, you know, really understanding what that legal issue is
• 45:03
  in the context of our mandate and the work we do and where our communities are at.
• 45:10
  You know, is the first step.
• 45:11
  And once we do that, you know, then we're able to kind of think about,
• 45:15
  okay, so now we fully understand what's really going on here or we,
• 45:18
  you know, or we think we do, you know and, and now we can think about,
• 45:25
  well, what would be the proper recourse.
• 45:29
  And that may be, you know, a question of which,
• 45:32
  which form is more appropriate, you know, is a court is a tribunal,
• 45:36
  is it you know, it is is it a human rights case?
• 45:39
  Is it a charter case? Is it you know, a judicial review,
• 45:43
  like whatever it may be?
• 45:47
  But we would go beyond that, you know, and, and maybe,
• 45:50
  maybe litigation, you know, isn't the most effective recourse.
• 45:57
  Maybe it's not the right time.
• 45:59
  You know, maybe there is a component here of trying to resolve the issue through,
• 46:09
  you know, some, you know, maybe through law reform,
• 46:11
  maybe we can do some coalition building.
• 46:16
  Maybe it's it's a question of amending a particular provision that we think may be
• 46:21
  more effective to do through political channels and not,
• 46:24
  you know, legal ones. So there are, you know,
• 46:28
  those type of considerations that you know, that happen and,
• 46:32
  you know, and being really aware, I think another important piece here is
• 46:36
  feeling confident that we're really aware of what's going on around us,
• 46:41
  like really knowing our space. Right. So this may be an issue that another clinic is
• 46:46
  tackling or another you know, a fellow partner.
• 46:52
  And so we really want to be cognizant of that.
• 46:54
  And maybe it's a question of supporting efforts that are already Ongoing.
• 47:00
  So those are all the type of things that we think through,
• 47:03
  you know, as well as and I should say, I think we have like 43 questions that we
• 47:08
  work through in our, in our in our tool, you know,
• 47:12
  that we use to, to kind of structure the, the work and the conversation and the
• 47:16
  assessments and so on. So there's a lot, you know,
• 47:18
  there's a lot there that we think through. So generally there are a lot of different
• 47:23
  factors that go into a case being developed and framed as a,
• 47:28
  as a test case. But, you know, there's one of those sayings,
• 47:32
  right? Like, you know, anything can be a test case in a way.
• 47:34
  I know that's not really accurate, but it really is about,
• 47:38
  you know, how you know, how one approaches it,
• 47:42
  right? And what what we want to do with it and ultimately what our client is wanting,
• 47:49
  you know, as an outcome.
• 47:51
  So those are all really important things that that get factored in.
• 47:56
  And of course, ultimately it's it's really about our client at the end of the day.
• 48:00
  And we just need to make sure that we are you know,
• 48:04
  getting clear instruction on what the the actual remedies are,
• 48:08
  what the outcomes are that the client is really seeking.
• 48:13
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've argued matters all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.
• 48:19
  Okay. For emerging, emerging disability rights lawyers listening in today.
• 48:28
  What's the most important courtroom skill that you have had to master?
• 48:41
  Robert Lattanzio: I think I'm going to give you a short answer.
• 48:43
  I think my answers have been long winded.
• 48:45
  And if I was to break this down and it by no means is to be interpreted that and
• 48:55
  maybe I'll start with saying having opportunities.
• 49:00
  You know, if you're an emerging disability rights lawyer take every opportunity you can,
• 49:05
  right? Watch hearings.
• 49:08
  Get out there. I immerse yourself as much as you can.
• 49:12
  Jump on opportunities if you can.
• 49:14
  The more you do. Right.
• 49:18
  You know, it's it's it's an ongoing practice.
• 49:20
  It's a skill that you just keep on.
• 49:22
  You never, you know, you never get to a point where you can feel like,
• 49:25
  okay, you know, I'm done.
• 49:27
  So, like, working on oral advocacy skills, working on written advocacy skills.
• 49:32
  Those are critical. Absolutely.
• 49:34
  But I think if I was to choose the, the one thing and maybe you're not asking me
• 49:41
  to create a hierarchy here, but what comes to mind is the sort of
• 49:47
  connecting back to, you know, don't be at work.
• 49:50
  Right. Always be prepared for everything.
• 49:53
  Like be prepared for the probable, but also be prepared for the improbable.
• 50:00
  And I think that's the one thing that distinguishes us,
• 50:08
  a great lawyer from, you know, from from the rest.
• 50:12
  Right. It's courts expect you to be ready for everything.
• 50:19
  And that means you're never done.
• 50:24
  You know, when you prepare and whether this is,
• 50:27
  you know, preparing for a hearing or you're preparing pleadings or you're getting your
• 50:33
  materials together or you're getting a motion together you need to constantly,
• 50:40
  you know, strive right for, right for, for the,
• 50:44
  the best possible you know, quality work that you can on behalf of your
• 50:48
  client. But it also means that you have to put in the work to really think through,
• 50:52
  like, all eventualities, all possibilities, and be ready for it.
• 50:58
  You know, be ready. Be ready for that question that you hope that will never be
• 51:03
  asked of you. Right. And it may never be asked,
• 51:06
  but you need to be ready.
• 51:08
  And and that and that comes through.
• 51:10
  And that also helps you feeling more confident and you know,
• 51:15
  and being more effective as an advocate in, in whatever,
• 51:18
  you know, whether it's mediation or whether or whether you're,
• 51:22
  you know, making submissions to the Supreme Court of Canada.
• 51:25
  It really is about putting in the work and being really thorough and really rigorous in
• 51:34
  your approach so that you feel like you have really canvassed every possible eventuality
• 51:42
  and you're ready for it, whatever is going to come your way. I think
• 51:46
  that would be top of top of my list.
• 51:52
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now I know we're starting to run out of time,
• 51:54
  but I wanted to ask you this question so I can get it in.
• 51:59
  One of your flagship initiatives is the Respecting Rights program pairing
• 52:08
  Self-advocates with intellectual disabilities and legal Professionals.
• 52:18
  Can you share a story that captures its real world impact?
• 52:25
  Robert Lattanzio: Oh, I'd love to. And I'm cognizant of the time here.
• 52:30
  If I can just maybe describe it just a little bit.
• 52:34
  So this is something that we, we started in 2011.
• 52:37
  We were really wanting to create with with Peter Park,
• 52:42
  who is a well-known self-advocate who's a co-founder of People First Canada.
• 52:49
  And did a lot of work with us.
• 52:52
  And we had we had a group of folks to really think through how we can do better in
• 53:00
  providing rights education to persons labeled with intellectual disabilities that were
• 53:05
  receiving developmental services in Ontario and a created this program that ultimately
• 53:13
  was traveling across the province and providing rights based sessions,
• 53:19
  but through arts based approaches and creative approaches and role playing and so
• 53:24
  on. And we were really trying to get at the you know,
• 53:31
  the folks that really weren't going to be coming to us with legal issues,
• 53:36
  the, you know, the the highly made, vulnerable and marginalized right of of
• 53:44
  communities. And I and I think we, you know,
• 53:48
  I think we succeed when we start to have people who are you know,
• 53:54
  we go to them whenever we can and when we have people to start building trust.
• 53:59
  And sometimes, you know, it's the we try to keep consistency.
• 54:04
  And, you know, we have people who keep on coming to our sessions and we build trust,
• 54:10
  you know, we, we start to get to a point where they feel a little more comfortable,
• 54:16
  you know, to start talking about things that they're experiencing.
• 54:20
  And so, to answer your question a real world impact,
• 54:24
  I think the the, the one that comes to my mind,
• 54:27
  you know, and it's not just one, but it is when and,
• 54:32
  and and this is how we sort of gauge success of the program when we have people that,
• 54:39
  you know, might be coming to these sessions for,
• 54:43
  for months, if not years.
• 54:44
  And, and finally, you know, sort of make sort of contact,
• 54:50
  you know, and, and express whether it's through the group or,
• 54:54
  or or after the group you know, express that they want to talk to us a little
• 55:00
  bit about something that's going on and, and,
• 55:04
  you know, and, and, and that allows us to begin you know,
• 55:08
  having those more difficult conversations about what's happening in their lives.
• 55:13
  And sometimes those are not legal issues, you know and we were able to try to connect
• 55:20
  them, you know, to where they need to go. And sometimes they are,
• 55:23
  you know, and sometimes these are like really critical,
• 55:27
  important things that are happening in their lives.
• 55:30
  And they are you know, through this program,
• 55:34
  sort of able to begin to talk it through.
• 55:39
  Right, and, and feel empowered enough to speak with,
• 55:43
  with a lawyer, which is pretty, you know, pretty difficult,
• 55:46
  right? It's pretty intimidating.
• 55:48
  And, you know and so having, having an opportunity like that to,
• 55:54
  to just start having those conversations and building those relationships,
• 55:59
  you know, to get to a point where we can start talking about how the law,
• 56:03
  you know, may or may not be be able to to sort of,
• 56:08
  you know, get the result they want. I mean, that, you know, and that could be, that could
• 56:12
  be a long a long process.
• 56:14
  But but a program like Respecting Rights, which has been so important to us,
• 56:20
  you know, has been a way for us to do outreach in communities that maybe we weren't
• 56:26
  able to do before. So it really is about building capacity within the community where
• 56:31
  there's, you know, essentially like there's peer mentoring that's really happening right
• 56:36
  through through this program.
• 56:37
  And, and they're able to break through in ways that we as lawyers really wouldn't be as
• 56:45
  nearly effective.
• 56:48
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have just a few minutes, but I would like to ask you,
• 56:51
  what are your final thoughts for the next generation of lawyers?
• 56:56
  What's your message?
• 56:58
  Robert Lattanzio: My message? Well, I think I would say that We are all
• 57:09
  I think building a growing record of successes notwithstanding,
• 57:15
  you know, the many setbacks as well.
• 57:18
  Right? And that as communities and as advocates and as lawyers.
• 57:24
  Right. We are most effective when we collaborate and collectively work towards
• 57:29
  supporting our various advocacy objectives.
• 57:33
  We I think we we can not only take comfort in that,
• 57:39
  but but continue to use that as motivation and a reminder of how effective we can could
• 57:44
  collectively be. I think this doing this work,
• 57:47
  you know, it's it's difficult.
• 57:49
  It takes a toll. As you know, Donna you know,
• 57:52
  it's there. Yeah, there are the successes and there are a lot of setbacks.
• 57:58
  I think a recent example.
• 58:00
  If I have a minute here, just to to signal this we had,
• 58:05
  as you know, you know, we we had the United Nations second and third
• 58:09
  review of Canada's implementation of the convention on the Rights of Persons with
• 58:13
  disabilities. And 53 groups across Canada came together.
• 58:17
  They drafted a parallel report, and a smaller group met with the UN committee
• 58:22
  in Geneva to report on the on Canada's failures,
• 58:26
  essentially on certain provisions of the CRPD and the result in March was a really positive
• 58:35
  concluding observations which is another way to say recommendations from the United
• 58:41
  Nations Committee on the Rights of persons with disabilities,
• 58:45
  and they offered really strong recommendations and critical observations
• 58:49
  related to to some CRPD articles or to to most of them including,
• 58:55
  for example, the recommendations to repeal track two of medical assistance in dying
• 59:00
  provisions and and that Canada should withdraw its declaration under regarding
• 59:07
  article 12 and reservation a whole host of of really important recommendations are are in
• 59:15
  that document. And, and I think it's, you know,
• 59:19
  it's a good reminder, right.
• 59:20
  What the results of collective action by disability groups across Canada,
• 59:25
  you know, can can be right working together toward a clear strategic objective,
• 59:31
  you know, can can have some really powerful results working together.
• 59:38
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's a message. And we are almost all out of time.
• 59:43
  I wanted to thank you for being here.
• 59:45
  It has been a great educational session for me personally.
• 59:51
  I've enjoyed working with art and I continue to work with art.
• 59:55
  And one more sentence from you.
• 59:59
  Robert Lattanzio: Well, it is always an absolute privilege and pleasure to work with you,
• 1:00:03
  Donna. And I just want to thank you again for this wonderful opportunity to speak with you.
• 1:00:11
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much, Rob.
• 1:00:12
  And I'm sure we will be in touch again.
• 1:00:15
  Thank you.
• 1:00:16
  Robert Lattanzio: Thank you. Donna.
• 1:00:17
  Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Take care now. Bye bye.
• 1:00:20
  Bye bye.
• 1:00:25
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@gmail.com.
• 1:00:31
  Until next time.