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“The only constant is change”: APM's Chair on project leadership · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:18
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:21
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:25
in this podcast. I'm very pleased to welcome Amy
0:28
Morley, AP M's new chair. Amy is the childhood project
0:31
professional and is currently a Programme Management Senior
0:34
Director at Acom, an industry leader in programme management
0:37
services for large complex infrastructure programmes, where
0:41
she's part of the programme management global business line.
0:44
I'm talking to Amy about everything from what the future
0:46
might hold for APM and the project profession to any career
0:50
lessons she might like to share. Hi Amy.
0:53
Welcome. Hi, Emma, great to talk to you.
0:55
First up, congratulations on becoming chair, but you've been
0:58
in posts a little while now, haven't you?
1:00
Towards the beginning of the year, yeah.
1:02
What do you want to achieve during your time in post as
1:06
chair and perhaps what are your priorities and plans for APM
1:10
going forward? My priority ultimately is to,
1:14
you know, support the APM and achieving its goals and
1:17
supporting the board and the APM as a whole in order to go to do
1:21
that. But I also think that project
1:23
management itself is continuing to evolve into more of a
1:28
strategic enabler across industries and across projects.
1:32
And I really want to continue to support that and to continue to
1:36
support project management in that evolution.
1:39
I also want to support the APM in strengthening our voice in
1:44
policy, expanding our reach globally.
1:47
So we've talked before around the AP Ms priority to move more
1:50
internationally and globally and to share a lot of our
1:54
experiences and lessons in that way.
1:57
And of course, most importantly, ensuring that we're equipping
2:00
people and professionals with the skills that they need for
2:03
the project management challenges that are coming
2:05
ahead. So be digital transformation,
2:09
complex stakeholders, sustainability, etcetera.
2:12
I think, you know, the APM, you know, continues to review those
2:16
things and and continues to make sure that we're providing what
2:19
it is that project professionals need right now.
2:23
Like I'm just listening to you. There's, there's kind of stuff
2:25
at every level from I guess dealing with the skills gap.
2:31
So you know, there's a really strong demand for project
2:33
professionals. There aren't enough and demand
2:36
is only going to get stronger. So that's one surround.
2:39
Another strand is what you're talking about re skilling people
2:42
or making sure they have the right mindset, I guess towards
2:47
all the kind of transformation AI that we're being.
2:50
Then at the very top level, it's about making the C-Suite more
2:56
appreciative, I guess of project, project management
2:59
function and making that more professionalised, which I guess
3:02
ties in with organisations themselves becoming more project
3:07
focused. I mean, my next question really
3:11
is around the future of project management.
3:13
So separate SOAP, there are these much bigger trends what
3:16
what you see in your. Work that has made.
3:19
You flex on these issues. Yes.
3:25
And I think it is exactly what you said there.
3:26
So you know, I think project management you is evolving and
3:30
is continuing to evolve and actually quite rapidly driven by
3:34
a requirement of how projects and how organisations are
3:39
operating. And I think, you know, project
3:41
management is is still shifting away from, you know, perhaps
3:46
task focused or delivery focused discipline to being a much more
3:50
strategic enabler of outcomes or strategic enablers of
3:54
transformation. And I think there are, you know,
3:57
a number of things that that the future of project management
4:01
kind of holds. So I think that, you know,
4:05
individuals who are now moving into the project management
4:08
space need to, you know, navigate a level of complexity
4:13
perhaps that hasn't existed in the past.
4:15
I think there are additional elements that need to be
4:18
considered when we're undertaking project management
4:21
of large projects, including, you know, innovations,
4:24
sustainability, significant kind of stakeholder engagement.
4:28
And I think all of those things require a different type of
4:31
skill set. So I think maybe, you know, at
4:35
one point we might have talked about certainly in the project
4:37
management leadership space, you know, people perhaps focus very
4:41
much on technical skills. And I think now that we're
4:45
seeing quite a big shift into more of an emphasis perhaps on
4:49
those leadership skills or the, or the, I hate to use the
4:52
phrase, but you know, those softer skills around, you know,
4:55
influencing around listening around collaboration and kind of
5:00
shifting more into a trusted advisor type space rather than
5:04
perhaps being completely task driven and focused on kind of
5:08
output. So, you know, I think there's a,
5:11
there's an element there of needing to think about both.
5:14
What does the landscape for project management look like?
5:17
But what are the skill sets that we now need as a project
5:20
management profession to be able to fulfil landscape?
5:23
That's quite a big shift, isn't it?
5:25
Because if you started out in your career and you need to know
5:28
the technical stuff you're doing with the nitty gritty of a
5:30
project, perhaps you're not managing others, but you
5:33
certainly need to learn how to be a good collaborator.
5:37
Because the people I interview who've have been on successful
5:40
projects on the perhaps ones that have failed, but not
5:42
through for whatever other reasons.
5:44
But the thing that comes across as this great need for clear
5:48
communication, honesty, transparency, These are quite
5:54
big things to get your head around if you're just sort of
5:57
early professions. So it's really good from you to
6:00
but that's the sort of thing you can think about right from the
6:03
start of your career, isn't it? I think so and and that's
6:07
actually one of the things for me this clarity is really
6:09
important in project management around communicating the
6:14
deliverable, the that you're kind of engagement.
6:17
I think doing so with clarity goes a huge, you know, huge
6:21
distance in terms of being able to both deliver.
6:24
But then, you know, in my mind and in my world, kind of
6:27
building relationships with them clients or building
6:29
relationships in terms of those wider projects.
6:32
But I think that point is that you say around the early careers
6:35
is really important. Because I think for me, I think
6:38
project managers hold a huge kind of weight of responsibility
6:43
in terms of being able to be transparent and building that
6:46
trust and being honest about what we're seeing in a project
6:49
environment, how things are going, how things are
6:52
progressing. And I think, you know, there are
6:54
projects that are perhaps not going as well as they might have
6:57
intended at the beginning for variety of reasons.
7:00
And I think kind of learning really early on around that
7:03
integrity and transparency and honesty around being able to
7:06
understand that, understand the drivers for it and be
7:09
communicating those with clarity, you know, is a big is a
7:13
big factor of being successful in the project management space.
7:16
But it's easier said than done. Have you?
7:20
Have you got any tips that you would pass on that actually
7:24
works in real life when it comes to communication?
7:28
Or have you been lucky enough to have a leader or project manager
7:32
that you've admired and copied what they've done any any kind
7:35
of tips like that you could? Pass on.
7:38
I've been, I've been extraordinarily fortunate in my
7:41
career and working with some fantastic leaders and some
7:46
fantastic people who absolutely have both demonstrated that
7:51
ability to be able to communicate transparently.
7:54
But then I've also offered that support when, you know, perhaps
7:58
I've needed to have a difficult conversation or if I've
8:00
escalated something or raised the query or needed to kind of
8:05
communicate in that way. And so yes, it's of course not
8:09
just completely down to the individual.
8:11
It needs to be down to everybody on the project team to set that
8:14
standard and to support one another to be able to act in
8:18
that way. And I think, you know, lots of
8:20
the research that we're seeing now is demonstrating that
8:24
collaborative leadership isn't just about being a style.
8:28
It is a genuine advantage and a, and a genuine factor in
8:33
accelerating problem solving and building the kind of culture
8:36
that means that where you're facing complexity or you're
8:39
facing challenges, then you're more likely to be able to get
8:41
over those and more likely to be able to succeed if you're
8:44
working in a way that you know, the environment is
8:46
collaborative. So.
8:48
I guess you obviously feel very optimistic about the future of
8:52
project management, but I haven't asked you specifically
8:54
what the opportunities are for the profession.
8:57
I mean, that demand is there's not really more and more people
9:00
in the profession, but what do you think are the opportunities?
9:05
I think there are a lot of opportunities.
9:06
So, you know, I think we haven't perhaps talked that much here
9:09
around the digital transformation.
9:11
And it's interesting because I think a lot of the conversation
9:13
that's happening, you know, certainly in project management
9:16
and even more so maybe in project controls is almost
9:19
thinking about digital transformation as a, as a
9:23
threat. But I think it's a real
9:24
opportunity. And I think that the digital
9:27
transformation is going to really continue to shape how we
9:31
plan, how we execute, how we can use data and analytics to
9:35
monitor projects, how we can build greater efficiency and
9:38
automation into projects. And ultimately, for me, I think
9:42
that's going to enhance decision making and reduce risk on
9:46
projects. And if we as management
9:49
professionals are focused on the outcomes of projects, then we
9:52
need to leverage and get ahead of the curve in, in the AI and
9:56
digital transformation space and start integrating and thinking
9:59
about how we can maximise that on projects.
10:02
Rather than thinking, which I heard even in the last couple of
10:06
days that, you know, AI will take over the profession.
10:09
We won't have project controls professionals.
10:12
I, I personally don't see it that way.
10:15
You know, for me, I think that utilising those tools will
10:19
enable the human element and some of the things we've talked
10:23
about already around that strategic enablement of projects
10:27
to perhaps have more time to do those things.
10:29
To start thinking about what is the analytics and the data
10:33
telling us? What are all the decisions that
10:35
we can make to act on those datas and start to drive, you
10:39
know, projects or improve the outcomes of projects overall.
10:42
So see that as a real opportunity and something that,
10:45
you know, I'd like to see more of coming through and and kind
10:49
of seeing more projects adopt some of that.
10:52
It's a little bit slow right now because we're trying to figure
10:55
out exactly how to do that. Yeah, we've talked a little bit
10:58
around the opportunity of, you know, shifting, you know, the
11:03
leadership style and thinking about how project management,
11:06
you know, the space that project management fills in a project
11:09
and moving more from, you know, task oriented or back office
11:13
type functions. And I think we're seeing much
11:15
more, you know, C-Suite positions.
11:18
I think the APM talks about having these chief project
11:20
officers, but, you know, at AC suite level.
11:23
But certainly we're seeing more project controls, you know,
11:26
directors and others sitting at that C-Suite.
11:29
And I think, you know, there's a real opportunity there for
11:32
continuing to position and show value and show how projects can
11:38
continue succeed with that in and that that kind of
11:42
information. You're kind of answering my next
11:45
question because I was going to ask you what, what needs to
11:49
change for the profession to thrive.
11:51
But already it's about using AI and data in a smart way to
11:55
increase project success. And rather than seeing it as a
11:59
threat, viewing it very much as a very useful, valuable tool
12:02
towards efficiency and delivering projects better.
12:07
Also around leadership, you were saying, but is there anything
12:12
else that needs to change around the profession or maybe around
12:16
governance or assurance or anything that you've that's kind
12:19
of close to your heart? I think one thing we've not
12:23
touched on is around, you know, promoting and building diverse
12:26
career pathways, recognising the skills shortage that there is in
12:30
the project management space. I think we need to be creating
12:33
and promoting different career pathways and enabling people to
12:38
think about the skills that they've built in a particular
12:41
area and how that they could be transferable or moved into the
12:45
project management space. And I think many, many roles and
12:48
many, many skills could be transferable into the project
12:50
management space if we were open in creating and promoting kind
12:54
of different career pathways I'm.
12:57
Always impressed by the project management profession because
13:01
you can come in as an apprentice, you can come in mid
13:03
career having done something completely different.
13:06
You don't have to have gone to university, you can.
13:09
It's just still one of the few professions that are completely
13:13
open in that way, which I find really heartening actually.
13:16
And also I guess I think to promote is that people can move
13:21
between sectors as well. Would you agree with that?
13:24
Do you think people can transfer between different sectors as a
13:27
project professional? I do, I really do.
13:30
And and it's interesting. So, you know, one of the
13:32
projects that I worked on, one of the great things that I saw
13:35
was their apprenticeship programme.
13:37
And we had people that would have been, you know, maybe mid
13:40
career that were in their mid 20s or even early 30s or older
13:45
joining the apprenticeship programme and kind of relearning
13:48
and re skilling to become a project manager.
13:50
And that was incredible to see and a real opportunity is some
13:54
of these mega projects, I guess, to be able to do that and build
13:57
a career, you know, in a longer term project.
14:01
So definitely that and definitely I think there's an
14:03
opportunity to move sectors. I think inevitably it depends on
14:07
the role that you're going to do, because clearly different
14:10
sectors require different kind of technical ability.
14:13
But I think that if you are a very strong, you know, generic,
14:18
all good project manager, you can apply those same skills and
14:22
that same expertise in any of the sectors that that operate.
14:26
And I think as much as anything, what I would say is I think it
14:30
requires leaders in those sectors to sometimes maybe step
14:35
outside of their comfort zone and take a bit of a risk on
14:38
hiring something that doesn't necessarily fit the must have 10
14:42
years of ex experience. Because I think you you gain a
14:46
different way of thinking, you'll gain a different kind of
14:49
perspective potentially and build some diversity in the
14:52
team. So.
14:53
Tell me a bit about your current role and the projects you're
14:56
you're. Working on.
14:58
SO I, in addition to being the Chair of the APMI work for ACOM
15:02
and I'm a part of their programme management global
15:05
business line, which effectively provides programme management
15:09
services for large complex infrastructure programmes around
15:12
the world. One of the things that's been a
15:14
big focus for acom is building that programme management
15:17
business line and delivering, we call them delivery partner kind
15:21
of roles. So we often have clients who are
15:24
setting up big infrastructure projects and they identify that
15:28
they perhaps need support with specific expertise or skills or
15:33
experience that they themselves in a project environment,
15:37
perhaps don't want to hire full time because the project has got
15:41
a particular lifespan or has particular skills that are only
15:44
needed for a particular point in time.
15:46
And so Acom effectively offers a service as a delivery partner
15:50
where we will work alongside a client team to bring that
15:54
experience and expertise to support, you know, ultimate the
15:57
delivery of the project. So yeah, you mentioned I, I
16:02
worked for HS2 for around 10 years and I joined ACOM just
16:05
over a year ago. I'm currently based in Toronto
16:08
in Canada. So my family and I moved here at
16:10
the beginning of July and I came across as part of the programme
16:15
management team to support a transport project here in the
16:18
city which are developing and building a metro extension.
16:21
So I lead our deliberate partner team and we work very closely
16:25
with our client here and a number of different things on
16:28
the project, but ultimately to help them achieve a successful
16:31
delivery of that of that metro extension.
16:36
How did you end up in project management and could you give me
16:39
a brief overview of your career today?
16:42
Because like you say, well, the thing, the term is like a zigzag
16:45
career, but. Yeah, I think that's right.
16:48
Yeah, I think that's right. And then, yeah.
16:50
And as you say, like lots of people, I didn't really
16:53
necessarily start out in project management, but I was, you know,
16:58
I was drawn to it probably through roles that required
17:02
coordination, problem solving, stakeholder management, and
17:06
probably built some foundational skills that then, as I talked
17:09
about, were quite transferable into where's my career going?
17:13
What is it that I wanted to kind of pursue?
17:15
And project management was a great fit for lots of the things
17:19
that I've kind of done in my early career.
17:21
And I think one of the things that I realised I really loved
17:25
and continue to really love is bringing structure to complexity
17:29
and kind of driving outcomes and those deliverables.
17:33
How did you come across it? Was it someone that did you know
17:36
about project management? So I started my career in
17:40
largely administrative roles. I didn't go to university At
17:43
classic time. When you go to university, I did
17:45
do a degree later, but I didn't go to university.
17:48
I started working in administrative roles and I lived
17:51
in Dorset, which not to take away from Dorset, which is a
17:54
wonderful place when you're an adult and have children, but
17:58
didn't necessarily offer the career aspirations that I had in
18:02
mind. And so I decided to go
18:05
travelling. So instead of going to
18:06
university when I was 19, I packed up my bags.
18:08
I went to New Zealand for a year and when I came back I got a job
18:12
up working in agricultural college, which again was
18:16
wonderful, really fantastic. But I wanted to do something
18:19
else. So I I moved to London and took
18:22
a role at the BBC as a personal assistant effectively.
18:27
And I worked in a number of different roles at the BBC,
18:29
including as PA to what was then the head of BBC News, which was
18:34
a really cool job, but absolutely loved it.
18:37
But I was, I was always thinking I wanted to do something more
18:39
than that, those kind of administrative roles, and was
18:42
thinking where could I kind of gain those skills or kind of
18:45
branch out? And I took a job, applied for
18:49
and was successful in getting a job working for the Cabinet
18:52
Office, which was a really interesting time in politics
18:55
because we were in the coalition government between the Lib Dems
18:58
and the Conservatives. And they were championing a
19:01
policy at that time around devolving powers from central
19:04
government to local authorities. And I joined the team initially
19:09
in an administrative role and they had just come out of an
19:12
audit that told the team that they needed to do project
19:15
management. And the really fantastic,
19:19
inspirational woman that ran the team was like, right, Amy,
19:22
you're the project manager go. And I was like, oh, OK.
19:27
And I, I spent a huge amount of my personal time doing APM
19:33
courses and reading a lot about project management in, in the
19:38
evenings. And I spoke to lots of friends
19:41
and colleagues who worked at various consultancies and read
19:45
about techs and project plans and all the things that you need
19:49
to do. And, and effectively schooled
19:52
myself through support of the team and through training to do
19:56
this project management role. And was effectively a team of
20:00
one that put in place a number of different project management
20:04
kind of products and materials and ran this project for a
20:07
number of years in the Cabinet Office.
20:09
And for me, you know, there's been a number of different
20:12
formative times in my career, but that was a huge.
20:16
Kind of pivot moment, I guess for making that transition into
20:20
into project management and really kind of pushing myself to
20:23
learn and and kind of build the skills I guess.
20:26
And very much enabled by a fantastic and supportive leader
20:30
of that team who who gave me a lot of the support and guidance
20:34
that I needed to be able to do that I wanted.
20:37
To ask you about how professions changed over time since you've
20:41
worked in IT, but specifically it just was, I was just thinking
20:45
then as you were talking about, you know, HS2 and I think of
20:49
transport. And.
20:50
Construction as being very male dominated sectors and I wonder
20:54
if it's made any difference to you that you've that you're a
20:57
woman. Is that something that you've
20:58
been kind of conscious of in terms of career at work?
21:02
Is it been a negative? A positive hasn't made a blind
21:05
bit of difference and just wondered what your thoughts are,
21:08
if you're happy to share. You know about your experience
21:10
but also as a woman in a senior role, you can see what still
21:15
needs to change. But how do we make that change
21:18
happen? You absolutely not just in
21:22
transport. I think in big infrastructure
21:24
projects in all sectors, it still continues to be, you know,
21:28
predominantly male dominated. I think it is changing and I
21:32
think it is changing for the better.
21:35
But for sure I think that there are still kind of fewer women in
21:39
leadership positions. And although it's changing on
21:41
projects that I've worked at, even if the percentages were
21:45
quite high, by the time you reached kind of SLT exec and
21:48
certainly board level, those percentages had dwindled
21:51
somewhat. So, yeah, there is undoubtedly
21:54
more to do. I think, you know, for me
21:58
personally, I'm not sure that it's held me back.
22:02
I think I have always perhaps approached, you know, working
22:07
life as as an equal. I don't think I should be
22:11
treated any differently as a woman.
22:12
I don't think I should be treated worse or better and just
22:15
contribute. And as long as I'm being judged
22:18
on my output and the value that I'm bringing and the things that
22:21
I'm doing, then, you know, we carry on.
22:24
I think that said, I'm sure there's an element and I'm sure
22:28
there's an element, you know, probably I've needed to work in
22:31
some respects harder or I feel like I've needed to maybe work
22:35
harder, but that might be a personal thing to maybe achieve
22:39
the same things. But it is a real juggle with
22:43
family and a big job. I have a 2 year old and a four
22:46
year old. Our family, perhaps we have
22:49
slightly reverse roles. So my husband stopped working
22:53
when we had our now 4 year old. And he does a wonderful job in
22:59
juggling all the things that need to be juggled with, with
23:02
the kids, which means that I can, you know, continue to meet
23:05
all the commitments that I need to meet from a kind of work
23:08
perspective. But the juggle is still
23:10
nevertheless there. And I'm reminded, oh gosh, the
23:13
woman's name escapes me, but she's the, she's a very famous
23:16
producer of Bridgeton and Grey's Anatomy and doing a big speech,
23:21
you know, how do you do it all? And, and she kind of said, well,
23:24
you don't, you don't do it all. And if you're, if you're
23:29
succeeding at work, then you're probably not fulfilling all the
23:32
things that you need to do at home.
23:33
And if you're succeeding at home and you're probably not doing
23:36
all the things that you need to do at work.
23:38
And life's a kind of constant juggle of needing to kind of fit
23:42
what needs to be done on any which day or week or month.
23:44
And, you know, reality of that. I think in in existing,
23:50
interestingly, I talk about this sometimes in that, you know,
23:53
it's still quite unusual that my husband is a, you know, stay at
23:57
home dad or whatever the right terminology is.
24:00
And I think it's been very, very interesting watching and seeing
24:05
his experience of being a stay at home dad and that society is
24:11
not that set up for stay at home's dad.
24:13
So, you know, going to swimming lessons and they're not being
24:17
male changing rooms because both of them are being used by mums
24:20
because it's predominantly women that go or, you know, to
24:23
different groups and nobody's speaking or engaging.
24:26
Like there's lots of elements to it.
24:27
And I think women as well as women absolutely genuinely
24:35
looking for equality in the workplace, I think there is a
24:39
lot that we also can do as women to enable some of those things
24:43
to change, which help us in doing that too.
24:46
You know, and thinking more openly around how we're sharing
24:49
those responsibilities, how we're continuing to kind of
24:53
normalise those things in the way in which we're doing them.
24:56
Because I think without that it's going to be very hard to
24:59
try and meet meet those equalities.
25:03
OK, thank you. What career lessons have you
25:07
learnt so far and what advice would you pass on to project
25:12
professionals? I think.
25:15
One big lesson that you again, a fantastic leader that I worked
25:18
with shared with me early on and it still stays with me now.
25:21
And I tell lots of people the same thing, which is that you
25:25
have time. And I think that often early
25:28
careers people and even mid career people perhaps are kind
25:32
of rushing to the I need to do my two years and then rush to
25:35
the next thing. And I need to do my two years
25:37
and then rush to the next thing. And I need to do my two years
25:39
and then rush to the next thing. And I, and I think you, one of
25:42
the big things for me was just the, you have time to experience
25:47
and maybe do that zigzag that we talked about and perhaps has
25:50
been a little bit of a feature of my career, which is that it
25:53
doesn't need to be linear. You've got time to maybe do a
25:57
slightly different role in a zigzag, experience what that has
26:00
to offer and then zigzag back and continue on that trajectory
26:04
because what you'll learn from doing that will be, you know,
26:07
fundamental or or kind of significant to the way that you
26:10
move forward. So I definitely think that's
26:12
factor. The other thing I'll say is that
26:15
build strong relationships. Everything in the way in which I
26:20
try and do things in the way in which I think projects, you
26:23
know, operate successfully is on the basis of strong
26:27
relationships and building that, you know, trust, building a
26:30
network frankly as well. It's a really small world, so
26:34
you have everything is based on building good relationships,
26:37
maintaining good relationships, and you move around different
26:40
projects and you come across a lot of the same people.
26:42
And I think there's been a big factor for me I think is really
26:47
investing in people and really investing in those relationships
26:51
in terms of advice. So apart from the things that
26:54
I've said, I think I guess a big part is then focusing on
26:57
outcomes, not just outputs. So yeah, you can do a great
27:02
task, but what is it ultimately contributing to?
27:05
What are you trying to drive for in delivering that particular
27:09
task? And I guess the the last thing
27:13
will be, you know, embrace change.
27:17
Change is the only thing that remains constant in a project
27:22
management profession. And I think if it's it's, it's
27:26
difficult for people to continually manage change.
27:30
We hear that a lot. But actually in projects, the
27:33
people who are the most successful of those who can bend
27:36
and adapt and shift and move with the change, accepting that
27:41
change is not something to be frightened of in a project.
27:43
It is just what happens in projects.
27:45
You get something coming in field, it changes the
27:47
requirements, the stakeholder engagement changes the, you
27:51
know, the goal posters change, the dates move, whatever it
27:54
might be. The only thing that is constant
27:57
is change and, and kind of getting more comfortable with
27:59
that and building the skills to adapt to that.
28:01
I think is a, is a is a key thing.
28:04
Is that something that comes naturally to you?
28:06
Have you always sight change or or has it been hard to?
28:08
I guess it's like accepting that you don't have control over
28:11
everything, which can be hard if you love organisation and
28:15
putting structure and processes in place.
28:18
I can see that, but I think the trick is pivoting quickly enough
28:21
to build the structure around the organisation, around the new
28:25
world. I think recognising that at the
28:29
beginning it won't ever be the same as you go through, but it
28:33
doesn't for me anyway, I don't think it means that you've you
28:36
lose some of that structure. I think it's more about how
28:38
quickly you can pivot, read the situation, understand what the
28:42
kind of changing brief is and then rebuild that kind of
28:46
structure and process and logical way through to then get
28:49
to the new outcome or the new goal or the new kind of targets
28:52
ahead of you. So for me I think I can do both
28:55
but. Yeah, and it's part of being a
28:59
leader like that and being able to pivot and change mean that
29:02
you have to be a strong decision maker.
29:05
So I've interviewed people in the past about how they make
29:09
decisions and somebody who impressed me, nice was like, you
29:12
just got to make a decision. And if you recognise quickly
29:15
it's a wrong decision, you can then move.
29:18
It's OK. Like you can't do that too many
29:21
times. You've still got to seem
29:22
competent and authoritative, but it's better.
29:25
What's yours take on decision making?
29:28
I, I absolutely would agree with the person you're talking to.
29:30
I sort of use this phrase sort of fail fast.
29:33
So, you know, make the decision, fail fast, learn from it, and
29:36
then kind of move forward. I definitely think there's an
29:38
element of that. Interestingly, yes, make the
29:43
decisions quickly, but I also think that, you know, the the
29:48
hardest thing about working in a changing environment is bringing
29:52
everybody with you as a leader on that change.
29:54
And so then perhaps not just about the decision making, but
29:58
that clarity point we talked around earlier, which is around,
30:01
you know, clarity and communication, clarity and kind
30:04
of or continuously communicating with the team and helping them
30:08
understand the change, helping them understand the new
30:11
direction and the way that, you know, we can move forward.
30:14
I think that probably for me, from a leadership perspective,
30:18
is one of the hardest things. I'm conscious of time, so just
30:22
to finish up, I just wanted to ask you whether there were any
30:25
leadership lessons that you'd want to pass on to listeners
30:30
that they could put into practise?
30:31
Probably perhaps people who are early on in their career or mid
30:34
career who think they're aspiring to get to sort of, you
30:39
know, higher up the project management tree.
30:41
Is there anything you'd like to pass on that's worked well for
30:44
you or you've admired in others? You particularly for those
30:48
people who are perhaps early careers, you know, surround
30:50
yourself with people that you can learn from.
30:53
And I think, you know, you don't have to copy everything that you
30:57
see in other people, but being able to think about how you're
31:01
picking out things that people are doing really well or even
31:04
maybe not so well that you want to avoid.
31:06
I think it's for me, I think it was a was a big thing.
31:09
I think we touched on, you know, building strong relationships.
31:13
I think that's everything. And I think building your
31:15
ability to build strong relationships is, is a kind of
31:18
key skill and a key ability in project management.
31:22
And I guess then the last thing would be, you know, never
31:26
underestimate the power of clarity, whether it's in
31:30
communication, whether it's in your planning, whether it's in
31:33
your decision making. I think always trying to come
31:36
back to being really clear and transparent, I think is a is a
31:41
key, yeah, key factor for me. How do you learn to become
31:45
clearer? Do you do you get, is that the
31:49
sort of thing where you ask your colleagues who really brave and
31:51
so like, do you have a 360 appraisal and how, how can I be
31:56
more clear in communicating? Because that's quite tough,
31:59
isn't it? I think it is tough, but I think
32:03
that I think it is a skill that can be learned.
32:06
And I think it's just, it's both in the way in which you
32:09
communicate, but the way in which you write.
32:12
I always remember somebody saying to me, tell me what I
32:16
need to know, not what you know. And I guess there's something in
32:21
my mind where I'm thinking, OK, well how do I break down into
32:25
like 3 bullet points, the message that I need to get
32:28
across or the decision that I'm looking for from somebody else?
32:31
That means that we can get to that decision most effectively.
32:34
And I think that's taken practise and experience and
32:38
crafting to learn how to write in a particular way or how to
32:42
present something in a particular way.
32:44
I don't think it's something that you can just do.
32:47
I think it's, you know, repeatedly presenting to
32:51
different audiences or repeatedly kind of writing
32:54
papers and then working out. Well, that didn't quite go as I
32:57
intended. And, you know, or I've presented
32:59
something that I thought was really clear.
33:01
And then you get 50 questions about it and you think, well,
33:03
that wasn't clear, was it? Because I've had to now explain
33:06
the slide for the last 15 minutes.
33:08
And so then when you go around doing it next time, think, OK,
33:11
well, what would be a better way of laying that out?
33:13
And definitely asking colleagues.
33:16
I don't think it's something you can do on your own.
33:18
I, I definitely ask other people and say I'm trying to do X or Y,
33:23
you know, have you got some great examples of where you
33:26
might have done that in a different project?
33:28
So within our network, we can do that a lot or so.
33:31
Yeah. On on within your own team, then
33:34
ask people for feedback. But equally, you know, if if you
33:37
read the room and you go and do something back to that fail
33:39
fast. OK, well that didn't work.
33:41
Let's go back and think about how we could could do that
33:43
better for next time. OK, brilliant.
33:46
That's bringing away to under our podcast.
33:49
It just leaves me to say thank you so much for your time.
33:52
It's been brilliant speaking to you learned a lot.
33:55
I really. Appreciate it's been a real
33:56
privilege to be part of it. Thank you so much for inviting
33:58
me. Thanks again, Tammy, for joining
34:01
us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
34:04
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