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Beside Every Calling | Episode 22: When Your Wife Is the Pastor — The Male Ministry Spouse · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, and thank you for joining this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Debbie Daniels.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Jill Barber.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: And today we are really excited because we are going to interview two male ministry spouses, which make up 2% of our viewing audience or listening audience, if you listen or watch on YouTube.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: But there are a lot of questions Jill and I have for the male ministry spouse.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're new to this podcast or you don't understand how they have male ministry spouses, we love in the Church of the Nazarene, we ordain both male and female ministers.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so we get male and female spouses.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: So today, joining us are Trey and Noah.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to let you guys just introduce yourselves briefly, tell us where you're serving, how long you've been in ministry with your spouse, or if you're also in ministry.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we'll move on from there.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: My name's Trey Powell, and uh I'm married to Katie Powell, who uh we attend New Life Pismo in California, and we've been going here since about 2016, 2017, maybe.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a manager in state government, and we've been married for 18 years.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Any children?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Children, two children, yes.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they are just about to one has her birthday tomorrow.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they are currently uh 12 and 10.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Noah Mayberry, also from New Life Pismo.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've been doing ministry together since 2021 when I arrived at the church.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my wife is the preschool director and part of the worship a worship department.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you guys, so so let me just get this straight.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, Trey, you you are your occupation is outside of the church.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: And Noah, yours yours is with your wife, pretty much on the some of the same teams within the church.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a great, wonderful way to, yeah, perfect for these questions because you guys come at it as a just a different perspective.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: So this is gonna be great.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just dive in.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the first question is when your wife was feeling the call to ministry, uh, what did that mean for you?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: What did that feel like as a couple?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And how did you guys maneuver through that?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I know it'll be probably different answers, and there's no right or wrong one, uh, but we'd love to know uh what that felt for you as a man uh because your wife was called to ministry.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Personally, I was really excited when like people were were uh speaking that into her life and when she was feeling that.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think we both actually started along the process at the same time.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was a really crazy kind of like God thing, where I just independently started looking at like online seminary because um it was just one of the things I really wanted to do, even if I wasn't part of like going into full-time ministry, it's just something I I love, love digging into the nerdy parts of God's word for sure.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then she was feeling uh similar things, and uh people were uh calling that for her, and I was just super excited that we could both uh end up doing that together because our our relationship started like because we were in ministry together, and so it's one of our just favorite things that we get to do together.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the hardest things we do sometimes, but we we love we love doing that stuff together.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Noah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Trey, what about you?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it kind of we kind of slowly got into it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I mentioned we uh joined the church, uh, this church in 2016, um, and we were just you know attending.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh my wife at the time, uh, I don't think she was, yeah, she she didn't have a job then.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: She was stay-at-home mother.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she had been a teacher before we had uh our first child.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um so kind of slowly as the kids got older and didn't need as much attention at home, um, you know, when they went to school, uh she started doing some kind of part-time work um outside of the church and some other things, but was devoting a lot of her kind of spare time to volunteering at the church and uh you know, loved our church and loved serving um and just kind of through that they really reached out to her and you know, you know, we it wasn't even on our radar to kind of become, you know, like join ministry or like work for the church.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh they approached her and asked her if she was kind of interested and they're flexible with her schedule.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so she started kind of doing admin work with the church part-time and just continued through that uh serving there.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a couple years later, I think they kind of wanted her to, you know, work more hours, so she started working full-time.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then kind of more recently, uh this year, this summer, um well, she's been uh through that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: She, you know, felt called to kind of get ordained and um go through that progress process, but uh more recently she's now um her role's changed a little bit, so she's uh managing some people to church.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: She's also doing a little bit of uh you know preaching at uh some different churches and um seeing how she likes that aspect of it versus her primary role right now is kind of on the support side.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Jill's asking in the deep questions.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: I want to ask some that 98% of our audience is wanting to know, because I just think for me, this is a question I've always wanted to ask, but I've never been brave enough to.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: So since you're on our podcast, I want to.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Early on in our ministry, I noticed people had expectations of me when Scott was the pastor, even associate pastor to senior pastor, and we have an episode that it is different when your husband becomes or his wife becomes a senior pastor.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: But do you guys have the same expectations from the congregation?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd love to hear from both of you because you might have a different answer.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: On have people commented on how you dress, what your children do and don't do at church, and are you expected to show up at every church function like a female pastor's spouse is typically like we hear about it if we don't show up?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I'm gonna start with you, Noah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that I to be honest had not thought about that much.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, before we got married, I was already a volunteer.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so in terms of like the way I dress in and that kind of thing, in in other churches before I came to this church, I had for sure so you didn't feel an expectation to dress or not dress a certain way.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I no, no.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, we are in California, so it's pretty and Pismo is very laid back, yeah.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we are for sure laid back in terms of dress code and stuff like that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of showing up to church functions, stuff like that, I definitely feel like there was a little bit of an expectations, uh, especially when we got married.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just just part of the culture I think we have is is to just help out a little bit and stuff like that.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Courtney is heavily involved in like a lot of spaces, kind of like Katie is also.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was for sure an expectation, uh to to show up places for me.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Were you surprised by that expectation, or you expected it?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was I would say slightly surprised by that expectation, but it was maybe more just because I hadn't it hadn't happened to me before.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, especially because I was just like I wasn't used to a lot of responsibilities like that were that serious.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just when I first got to the church, I was 23, something like that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So then to jump into higher expectations was maybe maybe a little bit of a surprise, but yeah.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also haven't felt like a big kind of burden of expectations either.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think it might help a little bit that you know my wife's kind of in a support role mostly.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: She's done some preaching, but it's been at other churches kind of nearby.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I think kind of we've benefited from having um, you know, our lead pastor kind of regularly has uh our associate pastors, you know, preach during the service, and a couple of those are are female, so it's not, you know, I think the attenders aren't kind of surprised by you know a woman being uh a minister here.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they've they've come to kind of expect that that's part of what you know it it means to kind of belong to this church.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that kind of helped pave the way and made it to where um you know it's it's a little easier, I think, on my wife um and myself.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, some I kind of like being a little bit in the background and not being a front and center.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, I you know, I don't feel any kind of stronger need to kind of be present, but I like, you know, I always try to show up and you know feel like my role is to support her um and kind of take some of that stress off her of uh, you know, like she she plans a lot of events, and um, so sometimes that means you know, going to the grocery store and buying, you know, 20 boxes of goldfish at Costco or something.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's I think kind of the way you know I help support is some of the things on the back end of you know, sometimes serving at some different functions.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: I also love being in the back where no one really knows I exist, but it was it in as a female spouse, that does they don't allow me to do that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's a crazy, like even we're getting ready to go to Africa, and I know I always have to be ready to get up and pray in front of 500 or a thousand people.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I always wonder what if this was a female path, would they expect the other spouse to get up and have to do that or to show up?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or even I love that you said your spouse preaches at other churches.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: My husband does also, but it's interesting every time people will say to him, Where's your wife?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder, does your wife hear where's your husband?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't asked her because sometimes, like, it's unfortunately worked out to where um, you know, I I have to travel a bit for my work as well.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've only been able to go to one of the times that she spoke.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So although it was funny, one time uh one of the attenders was seeing us from the back and thought I was my wife's um like older son or something.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how to feel about that.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're both in our about reaching 40 so but uh I don't know, take that as a compliment that she thought I was a teen.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, here's a really stupid question, but I'm just gonna ask it anyway because we're talking about it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I have I've had a handful of comments um about my hair, uh, believe it or not.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one of the churches we pastored at was it was kind of really perfectly set up.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: There was only one door.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there was a double door, you know, kind of to go into the sanctuary and come out of the sanctuary, and that's where we held our services, all of them at the time.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so Sam would usually have somebody dismiss in prayer, and we'd go to the back and kind of de-greet people, you know, just kind of like we really loved that part.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, because if we didn't catch them coming in, we could catch them most of them coming out.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: I like de-greet, Jill.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that was the term degreet.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: I make up words all the time.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: So feel free to, it might not be right words.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's a new term I'm getting.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna there we go.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're de-greeting them.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, anyway, so we were in the process of doing that one Sunday, and one lady shook my hand who's a wonderful woman.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really liked her.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't, I'm not really fast with responses usually.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I usually about a day later, I'm like, oh, I should have said, or I could have said, you know, that kind of thing.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: But at this moment, she was shaking my hand, we were leaving, and I was just saying stuff, and I had just gotten my hair cut off.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: I usually let it grow and cut it off, whatever.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: And she shook, she held onto my hand and she said, I really like your hair better the other way.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was so taken by that.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, and I didn't let go of her hand.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, I probably was too quick this day.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I'll tell you what, the next time you go get your hair done, you call me before you go and I'll tell you how to do it.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And she looked at me and we still have our hands, like, you know, in shaking thing.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I, and she she looked at me and she pulled me close and she said, Got it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: It looks great.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, okay, you know, I was like, I don't know why I was that fast, but I was like, don't, those are the things that happen.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was even at another church, another wonderful church, and another wonderful lady, except she only would say hi to me or hug me if I had a dress on, you know, or a skirt.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: If I wore pants, it was like, you know, we just waved from afar.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was not, and I mean, and I literally would I we've talked about this before on our podcast, but I told Sam I had a skirt on one day going to the church, I said, here's the experiment, see if so-and-so, you know, says hi to me or gives me a hug.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it perfectly 100% every time.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like you could just do it as clockwork.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but those are stupid little things that happen with, I think, not every female spouse, but a lot of us.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So in in talking about all of that, do you guys ever feel like watched over or evaluated in any any kind of way by anybody?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or and I'm I'm just asking because we don't know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we wondered what what your life is like uh as this role.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if I've ever had that kind of experience ever, really, to be honest with you.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I the funny thing is, I I know that my wife has had those experiences, though.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it's a female thing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter spouse or pastor.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think my experience is kind of the same as Noah's.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I think some of it might help that a lot of people probably don't know that I am Katie's spouse, and um, you know, uh that might the Nimity might help a little bit, but um no, I I think she has you know a time or two, you know, just being up front.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people I feel like they're just trying to make small talk sometimes, maybe not, but I think some people are just trying to make small talk, and you know, you get a big enough church, you've got enough people that are a little awkward and don't know how to do that very politely.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I try to give them a little bit of grace and kind of assume the best, but um, yeah, it uh I know it can be tough, especially for women being always kind of judged in that way.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Trey, that makes me think small talk is totally exhausting for me.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm quite good at it because I have to do it often, but I find it so exhausting in large groups, and in our current role, we're somewhere.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: I by the way, I love your church.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Your pastors love them, love the congregation, love them, they get extra points for both of you.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, shout out to Joanna, shout out to all of the Pismo people because you do have a really healthy church, but I know a lot of our listeners probably are listening from unhealthy spaces.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So if you can get on staff at PISMO.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm just kidding.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do have a question on your situation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that it there's something you would love to tell other spouses about staying in the background?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, can you or how do you?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or what would you say to other male spouses listening that maybe feel really isolated and haven't even been drawn into having to do all that small talk?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Or is there a way you're like, here's how you do it, these three steps, uh, make it easier.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because I wish someone would have helped me early on know how to be present.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I would just watch when we were in larger groups, other ministry spouses kind of call it and in our work the room, um, and being on because we all do that, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's why you love getting back in your car and going to your home where you're like, oh, I just get to relax.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because on Sundays, you know, I couldn't wear my headband and just show up.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: But in my own home, I can kind of do whatever.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: But that small talk I find exhausting.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do males, I mean, I think it's just personality driven.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe some people love it, but do you guys also have those expectations to work the room when you're in a large church function?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like maybe because this also I have a different perspective because I am on staff a little bit.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: That I for sure whether I feel like I'm a very introverted person for sure.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but to go say hi to people for sure.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think, especially like the volunteers that I know better, the people that I know better, I I just I just gotta go do it sometimes.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um the ways I think I've kind of learned to get through that where I was like maybe terrified to do it before, honestly.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've had to grow in that way tremendously in the past year, is just like I gotta go find out more about people's lives so that I can go and honestly connect with with more people, and that to me is so much easier than the small talk thing for me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm awful at that.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm truly awful at that.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if I can connect with someone, whether it's through sports or something like their kid is in youth or something like that, then it makes it much easier for me to go and find a connection because that is something I have to do because small talk is just I'll go home and it'll be just straight to straight to the couch for a nap for sure.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I um you know I went and listened to a couple of uh of y'all's podcasts before this, and one was with uh with David Nicola, I think episode three.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I feel like I'm in the early part, like you know, she just kind of moved into this role, and you know, listening to David, I was like wondering if that was gonna be my path too, because he was kind of explaining like he originally was in the background and was comfortable in that way, and not like feeling the need to kind of be present and be like you know, he's supporting his wife, but not visibly, you know, like not in the church functions.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where I am right now, and I think uh you know, it's something I'll need to think about, like how like I should be doing that or could be doing that, because there's definitely like you know, I have not, you know, tried to, you know, push myself out there too much, you know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's not natural for me to, you know, do that small talk and try to, you know, interact with people.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that is part of the expectations, but it is also you know, I think part of you know being in ministry, like you know, I'm not directly, but I you know but you are you're married to someone.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like that is something that uh I'll probably need to like kind of grow into and push myself a little bit.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that was that was really a great how you answered all that, Trey and Noah.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I was just thinking, at least for me, as I was looking hindsight in our from our history of 36 years, I think what happened maybe naturally, uh or maybe I just felt it, I'm not sure.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: But the wherever the Lord led my husband, from youth pastor to lead pastor of a handful of churches to different roles, district superintendent, and and on and on.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when his responsibility in ministry, uh when the Lord gave him a larger responsibility bucket or whatever you want to call that, I think the expectation from the congregation or from the people.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That he was ministering to, wherever it was, was larger for me to be present, for to me to be involved.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, I'm just trying to put it into words, but that seems to be, and it wasn't a negative thing.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Don't let me say that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt that, like, oh, oh, you know, I I need to, you know, I need to first of all show up at the youth party that we're doing, you know, for the kids to get to know me too, to for the parents to trust me with their youth pastor, you know, kind of thing.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: That was the our beginning.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh a small church where we were doing everything together, and then different size churches along the way.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think where the Lord puts you with your responsibility, with her responsibility in ministry under the call, with the call, the Holy Spirit will let you know.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I f there's almost a, and and Debbie can speak to this better than I at the large responsibility her husband has, but there's there's a let me just say this gently, there's a expectation uh for all of us to show up at something, but maybe not the gratitude that comes with it when you do.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, which is it which is a fine balancing line between us being grateful and us being cynical, you know, of the church and our roles.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the Lord really has to keep us humble and sweet and you know, he provides at every turn and all this other stuff, and he really does.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I just I think there's something with the you guys are starting out, and it's a beautiful story that you're starting to tell, you know, with your her role and your role, thinking of Trey and your wife.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And as her ministry role increases, I think you're going to maybe feel like, oh, I should probably be there.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you and sometimes you don't even know why, you know, it's just that is what do you think, Debbie?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Did you have you experienced that?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that you think is right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um I also wonder if part of it's cultural, oh um, denominational, even like I think in the Nazarene church, the expectations on the ministry spouse are huge, but we have very few mega churches, yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm friends with several mega church pastors' spouses, yeah, and they are not expected to show up at anything.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I do think it might be the mom podness of the Nazarene church, where we're pretty much a lot of small churches.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then those expectations are different.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: But even now, like I'm having some medical issues, so I'm canceling all my travel the next couple of weeks, and Scott's doing some pastors and wives retreats.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so funny how it's just an expectation, like they're gonna be floored that I'm not showing up and we're not even telling them ahead of time because then I'll start getting emails.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not that it won't be kind of wonderful about it when they hear why.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the expectation.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if a female pastor was showing up to hold that event, would the male receive an email or expectation to show up?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think maybe, but maybe not.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think it is different in a denomination like ours, I'm guessing, than my friends that have husbands that pastor churches of 5,000 to 10,000.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, those they're not expected to show up to anything.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to ask you guys questions because you guys, how long have you guys been in in ministry for?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: 36 years.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: 36 years.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's crazy.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know, right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and we're only 29, so I don't know how that's possible.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's 29, I'm 60 and only.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: So go ahead, ask us a question, Noah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking, how do you guys do you have any tips from your years in ministry of balancing expectations that people have for you and then doing what you feel God wants for your life?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have just like any I know that's a big question, but any tips on how you have done that throughout your years?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big question, but it's a good question.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and um I would say, first of all, when we started out, I was young and dumb, and I didn't know people really had expectations, and I let me add, unspoken expectations.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, though those are out there that at least I ran into um for people being upset about something that I did or didn't do, and I didn't know that was something that was on their mind or anything.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say uh through the years, both, let me say, both Sam and I had to learn how to manage those together.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh because we would pray about what needed to be done at the church, or if I needed to do something, or if I needed to lead a class or small group or women's group, or just whatever was needed.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was Sam and I together that said, okay, I don't care what so-and-so thinks about this, we need to do this.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Will you help me do this kind of thing?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so we just softly and tenderly did it, you know, or whatever.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: But we we we did do some things that we knew that, you know, some people might not uh agree with, not horrible, big different things, but just out of the normal processes of the culture of the church we were at.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I I just I just say you will manage them together as a couple.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just always keep that in your forefront of your mind.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say, Debbie?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: No, a great question.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: And always keep asking questions.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's the key to loving ministry after 36 years.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: And Jill's gonna laugh, but I'm gonna say again, find your people.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Find people in ministry who you look at their life and they're they love it, first of all.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not that there aren't bad seasons that you crawl in bed and eat cheesy chips, because you will, whatever you're go, you're gonna have those days, but mainly focus and find people who do it the way you want.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like I really we have four kids, and so it was very important for me because I've met a lot of people who said their kids want nothing to do with the church.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, ooh, what did they do that their kids want nothing to do with the church?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Our four kids, two are one's a senior pastor now, all four love the church, love each other.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I modeled people um who taught me early on to be a wife to Scott first, and that was my primary role.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I always said when people, I even for a season didn't like being called a pastor's wife.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say, if he was a plumber, you wouldn't say, Oh, the plumber's wife.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, he we would be poor because he has no plumbing skills, but you that's ministry is the only time you're the pastor's spouse, right?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Of you guys now have that role too, that title.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but first and foremost, focus on your marriage.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I would have to remind my husband, especially when we had larger churches.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: I remember at Paz Naz, they had a wall of all the older pastors that had served.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the current pastor was this giant picture, and then everyone became eight by tens.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: And his schedule was crazy.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: And often, I bet several times a month, I would take him in that hall and remind him someday you're gonna be an eight by 10, except to our kids and me.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're always gonna be the large picture.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I think now at 60, he's really glad that I did that just because our family it he gets that man, this is this is it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: If my family doesn't love Jesus, what have we given 36 years to?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I would say find couples that love ministry and then ask them what they did right and what they did wrong.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: And the couples that are bitter and sour, they'll stick out and you'll see them.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and even have coffee with them saying, Hey, what did you do that you liked and what didn't you do?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it just keep learning, but find your people that love ministry and emulate what they did.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I a hundred percent recommend everything she just said.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing is, you know, you when the when the Lord called Noah, you and your wife and Trey, when your wife, when she felt that call to go on that ordination track, uh that that's not a call to do it by yourself.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes that seeks through to some heads and some minds and some people to say, oh, I've got this.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: And plus, you know, we're pretty sufficient people.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: We can, we can, we're independent, we can figure things out, you know.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of do it on your, but don't do it by yourself.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: You do have to have a team of people that are your cheerleaders, that your are your prayer warriors.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Find somebody 10 or 15 years ahead of you, uh, just like Debbie said, and let them be your mentors for a while.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that that is we've done that through through our time many times.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: A matter of fact, Sam just asked another person about 12 years ahead of him to be his mentor currently, right now.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's just like, you know, we always are always learning.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: We always need to have somebody to talk to about something, and other than your spouse, even with your spouse and with another couple or person.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you guys are doing great.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: We're so thankful for your time today.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, like Debbie said, you you guys are uniquely wonderful to not only, I know Noah, you're in ministry, but also to support your spouse in ministry.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the Nazarene Church believes, and we're all about.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: And Trey, thank you.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: You, your support of your wife at all of her uh starting out part-time and now she's uh ordained and all that kind of stuff.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're that's an amazing thing.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: And she didn't do that by herself, she did that with your guys' support.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, your wives did that with your support.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I just want to say thank you.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: So well, thank you for joining us.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: And again, like Jill said, keep doing the work, standing beside your spouse.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for being someone beside the call because it's a unique space, but also a beautiful space.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: And those of you listening, thank you for listening to this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if you have a friend that is a male ministry spouse, will you stop right now, forward it to them, and we can always help them get in touch, even with other spouses, as we continue to build this community.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for joining us.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's your sign.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.