Latest / WoT Spoilers / When Iron Melts & The Plan for Arad Domon - The Gathering Storm chapters 6 & 7 - EP516

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When Iron Melts & The Plan for Arad Domon - The Gathering Storm chapters 6 & 7 - EP516 · WoT Spoilers

0:12
Speaker 1: This is the Weed of Time Spoilers podcast. Yeah, background
0:22
Speaker 1: information in case you know you're not caught up. I
0:26
Speaker 1: did finally buy a house, which I'm very very proud
0:29
Speaker 1: of and very excited about. However, that's happening right around
0:33
Speaker 1: the holidays as well, so I will be moving and
0:35
Speaker 1: my future is uncertain on internet access, and you know,
0:40
Speaker 1: stuff is going to be in boxes for about a month.
0:42
Speaker 1: By February, I will certainly be back to normal schedule.
0:46
Speaker 1: But between now and then, I do not know how
0:49
Speaker 1: much recording I'm going to get done. So we're going
0:53
Speaker 1: to try and do a double header today and just
0:55
Speaker 1: knock out two recordings. And we when we scheduled this,
0:58
Speaker 1: we decided these chapters were short enough we wanted to
1:01
Speaker 1: do them as double headers, So we're doing a double
1:03
Speaker 1: header double header. So we're trying to get through four
1:06
Speaker 1: chapters today.
1:07
Speaker 2: Which is like super throwback to old school WATS spoilers.
1:11
Speaker 1: School WAT spoilers. I mean that is me and Patrick.
1:14
Speaker 1: You sit down, and every time we sat down, we
1:16
Speaker 1: would knock out four chapters because we were releasing three
1:19
Speaker 1: a week, recording twice a week, and we'd miss a
1:22
Speaker 1: recording every once in a while, right, So to keep
1:24
Speaker 1: up that three a week without missing any you know,
1:27
Speaker 1: we were super dedicated in the beginning to the you know,
1:31
Speaker 1: because you're told, right when you get on social media,
1:33
Speaker 1: grow an audience, release, release, release. The more you can release,
1:36
Speaker 1: the bigger you can grow. And we were growing, and
1:38
Speaker 1: so it was it was a feedback loop where the
1:41
Speaker 1: bigger we got, the more episodes we wanted to release,
1:43
Speaker 1: the more episodes we released, the bigger we got, so
1:45
Speaker 1: which was smart, It was smart. I feel like we've
1:48
Speaker 1: settled into a much more sane schedule and we're producing
1:51
Speaker 1: much higher quality content. But back then, I, you know,
1:55
Speaker 1: you learn, so why we kind of want to do
1:56
Speaker 1: the wheel and wheel back around and record those first
1:59
Speaker 1: you know, a few books again, so I want to
2:02
Speaker 1: Rady you can have a say about it, and too,
2:03
Speaker 1: I think we've learned a lot about how to make
2:05
Speaker 1: podcast episodes well.
2:06
Speaker 2: And also you built the audience now. But yeah, these
2:09
Speaker 2: will be long. We are going to still have these
2:12
Speaker 2: as doubleheaders. Are not going to be four separate episodes.
2:14
Speaker 1: But uh yeah yeah, pants are saying we had two
2:17
Speaker 1: episodes a week. Yes, we started like we started at
2:19
Speaker 1: three episodes like a month or two. It was like
2:22
Speaker 1: super brief. It wasn't a long time. We did three
2:25
Speaker 1: episodes a week. We quickly went, oh, no, two episodes
2:27
Speaker 1: a week is enough, Like, let's just stick out.
2:29
Speaker 2: As I've been doing the rewind project, which I need
2:32
Speaker 2: to get back on really really soon for Fires of Heaven.
2:34
Speaker 2: But as I've been doing that, I've noticed the original
2:36
Speaker 2: dates and yeah, it would be like two days apart consistently,
2:40
Speaker 2: just like these little like boom boom, Like wow, you
2:43
Speaker 2: guys were cranking them out back in the day. So yeah,
2:47
Speaker 2: we're going to try to get back to our roots
2:49
Speaker 2: a little bit. Yeah, today we have some pretty good
2:53
Speaker 2: kind of fillery chapters, Like there's necessary plot stuff, but
2:57
Speaker 2: there's a lot of filler material. And Seth, you had
3:01
Speaker 2: this insight before we got on recording that this we're
3:04
Speaker 2: transitioning from Brandon Sanderson telling us about what was to
3:08
Speaker 2: him telling us about what is.
3:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like everything up to this point
3:13
Speaker 1: is being saying Listen, here's the chessboard, here's all the
3:16
Speaker 1: players on it. Here's the setup for the game. Here's
3:21
Speaker 1: the moves they plan on making. Right, He's like, here's
3:23
Speaker 1: Rand and he needs to do the following things. Here's
3:26
Speaker 1: Agwayne and she needs to do the following things. Here's
3:28
Speaker 1: Parent and he needs to do the following things. But now,
3:32
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, in these next few chapters, we
3:34
Speaker 1: have characters taking the first steps on their journey to
3:36
Speaker 1: the last battle. Right, Rand is starting his cleansing of
3:40
Speaker 1: Aradomont and he's going to recruit at Deeraldo. Right, we've
3:43
Speaker 1: got a GWayne sort of starting her campaign to rebuild
3:48
Speaker 1: if you.
3:49
Speaker 2: Will, Yeah, really digging into the I am building the
3:52
Speaker 2: tower as Alda tears it down thing and saying that's
3:56
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, even at the cost of all the
3:58
Speaker 2: other things that are going going on. And yeah, it's
4:01
Speaker 2: we get some good bubbles of evil, we get some
4:04
Speaker 2: good war stuff, like I mean, we get some fun stuff.
4:07
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of filler here. So I'm really
4:09
Speaker 2: optimistic we can get through four episodes in a day,
4:12
Speaker 2: four chapters.
4:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. There's there's Robert Jordan like to
4:16
Speaker 1: hide little nuggets of treasure in the forest. As you
4:20
Speaker 1: went from signposts to sign posts, I feel like there's
4:22
Speaker 1: less nuggets, but you know, there's still these big signposts.
4:25
Speaker 1: I really like that we're going between but the filler
4:27
Speaker 1: between has less subtlety to it.
4:31
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yeah, so with that you want to read
4:34
Speaker 2: us in too.
4:36
Speaker 1: Chapter six, Chapter six, when iron melts rotal Iteralda had
4:44
Speaker 1: seen a lot of battlefields. Some things were always the same.
4:48
Speaker 1: Dead men like piles of rags lying in heaps, ravens
4:52
Speaker 1: eager to dine, chromes, cries, whimpers, and humbles from those
4:56
Speaker 1: unlucky enough to need a long time to die. Each
5:00
Speaker 1: field also had its own individual print. He could read
5:03
Speaker 1: a battle like the trail of passing game. Corpses lying
5:06
Speaker 1: in rows that were disturbingly straight indicated to charge of
5:09
Speaker 1: footmen who had been pressed against volleys of arrows. Scattered
5:12
Speaker 1: and trampled bodies were the result of infantry breaking before
5:15
Speaker 1: heavy cavalry. This battle had seen large numbers of sean
5:19
Speaker 1: Chan crushed up against the walls of dar Luna, where
5:22
Speaker 1: they had fought with desperation, hammered against the stone. One
5:26
Speaker 1: section of the wall was completely torn away, where some
5:29
Speaker 1: demane had tried to escape into the city. Fighting in
5:32
Speaker 1: the streets and among the homes would have favored the
5:34
Speaker 1: shan Chan. They hadn't made it in time. Ideralda rolled
5:38
Speaker 1: his rown guilding through the mess. Battle was always a mess.
5:41
Speaker 1: The only neat battles were the ones in stories or
5:44
Speaker 1: history books. Those had been cleansed and scoured by the
5:47
Speaker 1: abrasive hands of scholars looking for conciseness aggressor one fifty
5:51
Speaker 1: three thousand killed or defenders stood twenty thousand fallen.
5:56
Speaker 2: So battle it sucks, and nothing is as will make
6:02
Speaker 2: that clearer than being there. And the remove of writing
6:06
Speaker 2: and history is a problem. It's one of those things
6:11
Speaker 2: where like war photography and war journalism brings so much
6:16
Speaker 2: to the understanding of history in a way that yeah,
6:20
Speaker 2: just a brief tallly of total winds and losses does
6:23
Speaker 2: not no.
6:24
Speaker 1: And the way Rotal Ultraalda can read the battlefield just
6:29
Speaker 1: by looking at the corpses. He sees it clear as day,
6:31
Speaker 1: but that's not necessarily clear to anybody else watching and
6:34
Speaker 1: seeing what's going on. He's like, yep, you know, red
6:38
Speaker 1: blonde brunette, right, he can see the matrix, right, he
6:40
Speaker 1: knows what's going on. He doesn't even see the code anymore.
6:43
Speaker 1: He's very much into this is exactly what happened. And
6:46
Speaker 1: I can see that at a history like land reading
6:48
Speaker 1: a trail, right, like there's no question for him what's
6:52
Speaker 1: going on in this battle and what happened.
6:54
Speaker 2: I mean, plus he was there right right, yeah, but no,
6:56
Speaker 2: it's the It was one of the favorite little like
6:58
Speaker 2: window boxes in my textbooks when I was at college.
7:01
Speaker 2: What a geologist sees, right, And it's the overlay on
7:05
Speaker 2: a landscape of like understanding and you're looking at which
7:08
Speaker 2: like I have that installed in my brain now every
7:10
Speaker 2: landscape I look at, I immediately can start breaking it
7:13
Speaker 2: down and being like, well, this is clearly where the
7:15
Speaker 2: erosive forces are and the depositional forces and that, you know,
7:18
Speaker 2: like it's obvious. It's like I look at mountains, I
7:21
Speaker 2: know what's going on. Look at a river, I understand.
7:23
Speaker 2: It's four dimensional experience. This is just what a general sees.
7:27
Speaker 2: It's just that.
7:28
Speaker 1: But for battle it's terminator side, right, you know in
7:31
Speaker 1: the Terminator movies when you're from his perspective and all
7:33
Speaker 1: the stats come up and he's like you know, hostile, hostile, hostile, yeah,
7:37
Speaker 1: zero killed, all that kind of stuff like yeah, you
7:39
Speaker 1: just get the readout and it's like if your brain
7:40
Speaker 1: is trained for that, you can just see it. And
7:43
Speaker 1: it's amazing the information that's laid on top, like when
7:46
Speaker 1: I I feel the same way when I go to
7:47
Speaker 1: work and I can look at these machines and you know,
7:49
Speaker 1: they've got a lot of dials and things on there.
7:51
Speaker 1: When I first started, it was, oh my god, that's
7:53
Speaker 1: a giant machine. And now I can look at it
7:55
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I see labels and all that kind
7:57
Speaker 1: of stuff. Not actually, but you know, you can look
7:59
Speaker 1: at it and stuff like that.
8:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, same. I can pick up a rock and
8:03
Speaker 2: start telling you so much about its story. I go
8:05
Speaker 2: to a library and I understand how it's put together.
8:08
Speaker 2: Like hell, I've got the genealogy book. I can navigate
8:11
Speaker 2: ancestry dot Com basically with my eyes closed because I
8:14
Speaker 2: know where all the buttons are, you know, Like it's
8:17
Speaker 2: it's just what happens when you do something a lot,
8:19
Speaker 2: and it's a Raalda has been doing this for forty years.
8:23
Speaker 2: He's got a lot of experience.
8:26
Speaker 1: But let's talk about the dead. Half of his one
8:29
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dead.
8:31
Speaker 2: He lost fifty thousand.
8:33
Speaker 1: And he killed more of the opposing force because there's
8:37
Speaker 1: three times them, and he won, which means you know,
8:40
Speaker 1: there were three hundred thousand, and he must have killed
8:46
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand of them. I mean, this is a
8:48
Speaker 1: quarter million people dead in this battle.
8:51
Speaker 2: A quarter million people that will not be marching to
8:53
Speaker 2: the Last Battle to slaughter trollicks. Right, It's uh, it's rough.
8:59
Speaker 2: And I wonder if that the point of the chapter
9:02
Speaker 2: symbol being the broken spider webs and stuff like, look
9:05
Speaker 2: at how much chaos is happening here.
9:08
Speaker 1: I mean, I yes, let the Lord of Chaos rule, certainly,
9:11
Speaker 1: but it's the bubble of evil to me, like the
9:13
Speaker 1: web of the pattern is breaking up because the Dark
9:15
Speaker 1: One's influence.
9:17
Speaker 2: This is almost a forsaken plot that these battles are
9:20
Speaker 2: happening like Itceralda is kind of a free agent, but
9:22
Speaker 2: also he's doing more or less what Grandall wants, which
9:25
Speaker 2: is to keep things chaotic, so less a bubble of evil,
9:30
Speaker 2: more just ordinary machinations.
9:31
Speaker 1: But yeah, well you know the next POV is the
9:34
Speaker 1: bubble of evil, right, So chapter header doesn't necessarily forer
9:38
Speaker 1: to this section.
9:38
Speaker 2: That's true, Yeah, but it's just the sheer scale of death.
9:41
Speaker 2: And I'm like, the last battle is approaching. That's like
9:44
Speaker 2: all anyone can talk about is the last battle approaching,
9:46
Speaker 2: And you're just telling me that humans, a quarter million
9:50
Speaker 2: humans just took themselves out of the fight, like, come on, man, come.
9:57
Speaker 1: And this is where you have to debate, is it
9:58
Speaker 1: would it be more and more really correct for Ideralda
10:01
Speaker 1: to surrender and aid de sean Chan's battle in the
10:05
Speaker 1: last battle or try and fight to keep them out
10:08
Speaker 1: of his homeland, right, Like, in a lot of ways,
10:11
Speaker 1: it might be better for him to surrender. And what
10:14
Speaker 1: they do is they make him surrender to the dragon
10:15
Speaker 1: Reborn and that becomes a compromise.
10:18
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's really messy because yeah, I mean, honestly,
10:23
Speaker 2: the thing to do if you believe the world is
10:25
Speaker 2: ending is to run to the dragon Reborn and say,
10:28
Speaker 2: figure it out for me, bud, like instead of so
10:31
Speaker 2: you'd be dragonsworn, is what you're saying basically, Like, I
10:34
Speaker 2: think that you have to truly and completely believe that
10:37
Speaker 2: that's what's happening that and not be weighing that against
10:40
Speaker 2: some other scenario like the Americans invading with magic nukes.
10:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when your buddy turns into beatles and
10:46
Speaker 1: they come spilling out of his mouth, killing him, I
10:49
Speaker 1: would believe.
10:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, at that point, I feel like you just got
10:52
Speaker 2: to be like I'm going to the dragon reborn and
10:55
Speaker 2: I'm letting him figure this out, like he can figure
10:58
Speaker 2: out what the borders need to be, Like this is
11:00
Speaker 2: this is above my pay grade.
11:03
Speaker 1: That's what Rand says the whole time.
11:05
Speaker 2: I know it's not a great strategy.
11:09
Speaker 1: So it although basically goes up to the General and
11:13
Speaker 1: they sort of have their You know, you were a
11:16
Speaker 1: good opponent, but I'm killing you anyway in mercy conversation.
11:20
Speaker 2: Well, the man has a spear to the gut. There's
11:22
Speaker 2: no repairing that.
11:23
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, killing him.
11:24
Speaker 2: Well healing, but no, there's no healers within one hundred miles.
11:29
Speaker 1: I know it's these because the shan Chan don't have
11:32
Speaker 1: healing right and.
11:33
Speaker 2: It Toeralda doesn't have channelers. So a twisted spear in
11:36
Speaker 2: the gut after who knows how long since the initial
11:38
Speaker 2: wound was taken. Like, no, that man deserves a mercy
11:42
Speaker 2: killed because that's a bad way, right. I love my
11:45
Speaker 2: medieval violence fantasy plot stuff like gut wounds. No, no,
11:50
Speaker 2: take the head, take the head. But it's I think
11:55
Speaker 2: it's cool how the general, as he's dying, sends one
11:58
Speaker 2: of his messengers out to be like, go find me
12:02
Speaker 2: the enemy general and bring him to me. I want
12:04
Speaker 2: a final word, and the messenger boy does so and
12:08
Speaker 2: it a Alda comes over because like he's won the battle.
12:10
Speaker 2: There's no real danger, right, He's like, yeah, I'll go
12:12
Speaker 2: meet with the enemy general as he's dying, and just
12:15
Speaker 2: like it's fine whatever. It's such an interesting like the
12:19
Speaker 2: gentlemanly rules of war somehow still apply even in this
12:22
Speaker 2: churned battlefield of just absolute horror.
12:25
Speaker 1: Well that's where he talks about how he would like
12:27
Speaker 1: want to play stones with him, but he's like, oh,
12:29
Speaker 1: I guess we'll be that's what we've been doing, you know,
12:31
Speaker 1: or clashing swords with him, I think, is what he says. Yeah,
12:33
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think of it in the same way.
12:35
Speaker 1: It's like you want you would like to compete with
12:36
Speaker 1: this guy monoy Mono.
12:38
Speaker 2: But yeah, it reminds me of tilely thinking about paren
12:42
Speaker 2: mm hmm.
12:42
Speaker 1: It's that like you want to face across the battlefield. Yeah.
12:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they're like, I respect you, I understand your mind,
12:49
Speaker 2: and it would be a challenge to go up against
12:53
Speaker 2: you and to like fight you, and in a way
12:55
Speaker 2: that's what they've been doing. But also it could have
12:57
Speaker 2: been more personal, It could have been a more intimate
12:59
Speaker 2: concent test then one hundred thousand on two hundred thousand, right, right.
13:04
Speaker 2: Matt also talks about that in the Last Battle, about
13:07
Speaker 2: how it's just gambling with the other it's a game
13:11
Speaker 2: of dice with the other general like it's it's a
13:13
Speaker 2: dynamic that gets brought up again and again that have it.
13:16
Speaker 2: It's a conversation, right, and yeah, it's Heralda and this Turan.
13:20
Speaker 2: You know, they get to put a bookend on the
13:22
Speaker 2: conversation that they've been having before the end and.
13:27
Speaker 1: Sort of the sum of the conversation is Turan, who
13:29
Speaker 1: sounds very much like Turat. Right.
13:31
Speaker 2: Maybe they were brothers. We could head.
13:33
Speaker 1: Canada head cannon the brothers.
13:37
Speaker 2: They're both wade masters, you know, yeah.
13:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely that they learned together because their parents. You know,
13:42
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, who are the sisters who are really good
13:45
Speaker 1: at tennis? Serene No, the Williams, Yes, Serena Williams.
13:50
Speaker 2: And there was a movie with will Smith as the
13:51
Speaker 2: dad that I didn't watch. But yes, I am familiar
13:54
Speaker 2: with the fact that there are siblings of tennis excellence.
13:57
Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's how I'm imagining here is the two
14:01
Speaker 1: of them, like, yeah, going down.
14:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, except in fencing and with heavy sorts instead of
14:06
Speaker 2: little rape yers.
14:09
Speaker 1: But somehow I imagine the movements and the screams would be similar.
14:13
Speaker 2: The god I watched a video recently of just like
14:17
Speaker 2: a like a collected tracks. Was it article about tennis grunting?
14:24
Speaker 2: Apparently it's a whole conversation that exists. Is if you
14:27
Speaker 2: just listen to the MIC's up of tennis players, they
14:29
Speaker 2: have their own special grunts and it sounds really sexual
14:32
Speaker 2: and it's really weird, but like there's a whole science
14:34
Speaker 2: to it, and it was very weird. Oh and Chat
14:37
Speaker 2: is giving us the names Venus and Serena Williams. Thank
14:40
Speaker 2: you pants.
14:41
Speaker 1: But yeah, so he's basically saying, you've killed me, but
14:45
Speaker 1: you know more coming. Essentially, you don't understand like we've
14:48
Speaker 1: killed half your number and we're just a fraction of
14:51
Speaker 1: the troops that Sean Chan can bring to bear against you.
14:54
Speaker 2: Right first, Turan asks how did you do it? Just
14:57
Speaker 2: for his own curiosity, He's like, clearly, I'm dying. It's
15:00
Speaker 2: not a military secret. But like I as a person
15:02
Speaker 2: would like to have this itch scratched before I die.
15:05
Speaker 1: I would like to know why I'm dying exact basically.
15:07
Speaker 2: And told it's like as a professional courtesy, yes, I
15:09
Speaker 2: will tell you. I will give you the unvarnished truth
15:11
Speaker 2: of what happened. And dudes like that's clever. You do
15:15
Speaker 2: realize that was a one shot wonder though, right, because
15:18
Speaker 2: like we are Russia and the America's piled together, we
15:22
Speaker 2: have endless bodies to throw at the problem, and you
15:24
Speaker 2: are fighting with everything you've got, so you have to
15:27
Speaker 2: know you're going to lose. And it was kind of
15:31
Speaker 2: making me think of, like, how many of these conversations
15:34
Speaker 2: maybe happened during the early colonial period in North America
15:38
Speaker 2: and South America for that matter, of just like there's
15:41
Speaker 2: just a few of them, Okay, there's a few more
15:43
Speaker 2: of them. Oh god, there's so many of them. There's
15:45
Speaker 2: just so many of them. There's like a literal tidal
15:48
Speaker 2: wave of Europeans. There's nothing we could possibly do to
15:51
Speaker 2: stem the tide. What the fuck? Like this conversation had
15:55
Speaker 2: to have happened multiple times throughout the early colonial period.
15:58
Speaker 1: All right sidebark completely sidar, Okay, But I've been learning
16:02
Speaker 1: more and more. I feel like there was a significant
16:04
Speaker 1: population collapse just before the Europeans came in, and some
16:08
Speaker 1: of that due to disease spreading by the Europeans, Right, yeah,
16:12
Speaker 1: but was there any of that happening before the Europeans
16:14
Speaker 1: coming in? I feel like there was.
16:17
Speaker 2: Something that I've heard of. I believe that it's just
16:20
Speaker 2: a matter of understanding how early first contact created issues,
16:26
Speaker 2: Like it was not you know, landing at Plymouth, right,
16:30
Speaker 2: that was the first time that there was illness introduced.
16:33
Speaker 2: I think it's just a matter of we don't fully
16:35
Speaker 2: understand how the epidemiology of five centuries ago manifested. That's
16:40
Speaker 2: my best understanding is like literally the very first Spaniard
16:44
Speaker 2: was actually the beginning of the conflagration. Like, but I
16:48
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know much about the pre colonial
16:51
Speaker 2: population landscape, though I do know that it's it's thought
16:54
Speaker 2: that the Little Ice Age was partially triggered by population
16:59
Speaker 2: collapse and the America's because all of the farmland suddenly
17:03
Speaker 2: went fallow at the same time, and so it was
17:05
Speaker 2: a massive CO two draw down as the forests were
17:08
Speaker 2: able to in just like a decade or five like
17:10
Speaker 2: reclaim all of that land. I've read a couple of
17:14
Speaker 2: interesting scholarly things about it, like there actually could have
17:17
Speaker 2: been a significant temperature drop on the planet because of
17:20
Speaker 2: how many people were dying in the Americas over such
17:24
Speaker 2: a short period of time and the effect on agriculture.
17:28
Speaker 1: It's gone. Yeah, but humans can't affect the climate. No, no, okay,
17:35
Speaker 1: anyway back to the story, thank you for taking that
17:38
Speaker 1: handgment with me.
17:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Oh yeah. And then speaking of like colonial resistance, right,
17:44
Speaker 2: Toronto has this whole thought about Aradoman needs to have
17:48
Speaker 2: this fight so that way in a few generations they
17:50
Speaker 2: can like rebel with stories of having been pushed down
17:54
Speaker 2: and optimistic of him.
17:57
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, mythsfades legend, but he's hoping the legend
18:01
Speaker 1: is going to be enough to inspire people to rebel
18:03
Speaker 1: in the future.
18:04
Speaker 2: Ends up not being relevant because of how the actual
18:07
Speaker 2: last battle plays out and the Dragon's piece and all that, right.
18:10
Speaker 1: Right, right, because he does settle Aradomon for the king, right,
18:13
Speaker 1: he does create a king.
18:14
Speaker 2: Eventually find the king.
18:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, they find the king, that's right.
18:16
Speaker 2: They find Absolom. He was just lost somewhere because plot.
18:20
Speaker 1: Well, a light of kidnaps him. Right, So this is
18:22
Speaker 1: the whole thing, Like we'll get to it later, but
18:24
Speaker 1: he ran thinks he's kidnapped by Grendall, but Rendall's like,
18:28
Speaker 1: I don't worry. It was either all light is like
18:31
Speaker 1: I do, and nobody didn't.
18:33
Speaker 2: Tell anybody one good thing that she did. Yeah, but yeah, no,
18:37
Speaker 2: it's very much Aradomon is a free nation when all
18:40
Speaker 2: the dust has settled after the last battle, So it's
18:43
Speaker 2: not relevant, but it is interesting optimistic mythmaking on Itralda's
18:47
Speaker 2: part that I thought was worth pointing out.
18:49
Speaker 1: And the section ends with the ravens feasting on the corpses. Yep,
18:55
Speaker 1: I mean dark one always wins on.
18:56
Speaker 2: The one hand, gross on the other hand, superior to
19:00
Speaker 2: all the alternatives, you know, scavenger birds and all scavengers. Really,
19:05
Speaker 2: if it's bigger than a bacterium, you should be happy
19:08
Speaker 2: that there are scavengers doing clean up. They're they're very important.
19:12
Speaker 2: You don't want a world where only bacteria are breaking
19:15
Speaker 2: down organic material.
19:16
Speaker 1: You really don't explain.
19:18
Speaker 2: It'd be gross, it'd be sick. We would be so
19:22
Speaker 2: like covered in disgusting slime, you know, like scavengers eat
19:27
Speaker 2: that stuff and take it away and turn it into fresh,
19:31
Speaker 2: living animal existing in the world and it's Yeah, having
19:37
Speaker 2: feces and dead animals around until bacteria break them down
19:40
Speaker 2: would be just such a disease ridden horrible existence, like
19:44
Speaker 2: we need scavengers, but also birds picking at corpses is gross,
19:50
Speaker 2: like visually it is. It is upsetting. And yeah, ultimately,
19:53
Speaker 2: the dark one always wins, right death.
19:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I feel like. That is a
19:57
Speaker 1: symbol of the raven is always a symbol of the
19:58
Speaker 1: dark one. I mean maybe the Sean.
20:00
Speaker 2: Cham but not in this case.
20:02
Speaker 1: No, not in this case, jam.
20:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is more of the butcher always gets his
20:08
Speaker 2: due sort of thing.
20:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then we switched to Leanne in
20:27
Speaker 1: her same frickin' dress, which is ridiculous because even prisoners
20:30
Speaker 1: should get a change of clothing. Jesus Christ, absolutely obscene.
20:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I get to rinse it in a bucket
20:37
Speaker 2: of water every three days, so humanitarian. No, that's it's
20:41
Speaker 2: been a week, right, We got nine days as a
20:44
Speaker 2: timestamp in the last time we were in the tower,
20:46
Speaker 2: and this is the late evening, so it's essentially been
20:50
Speaker 2: ten days since she got hurled into a river and
20:52
Speaker 2: then drug into a cell. Like this is rude, and
20:56
Speaker 2: the pattern agrees with us and makes her dress unwearable.
20:59
Speaker 2: That's what the whole it was, just to get her
21:03
Speaker 2: a new dress.
21:03
Speaker 1: It is funny that we start on the dress and
21:05
Speaker 1: kind of end on the dress. That is the circular
21:07
Speaker 1: sort of character of this POV.
21:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I like being in Land's head. We don't
21:13
Speaker 2: get to be in her head very often. Think this
21:14
Speaker 2: might be the only time. But she's cool. I mean
21:18
Speaker 2: being in the head of someone who transitioned to ajas right, Like,
21:21
Speaker 2: that's an extremely unique eye that I perspective as someone
21:24
Speaker 2: who was blue and is now green and has that
21:27
Speaker 2: way of reflecting on the world.
21:29
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a lot of ways, she
21:31
Speaker 1: was betrayed by the blue. She was betrayed by a suon, right, Like,
21:35
Speaker 1: she wasn't in on the plan really that well before
21:39
Speaker 1: she got still she really only was read. She was like,
21:41
Speaker 1: remember she walked in on things and Moraine and sou
21:45
Speaker 1: On and Varren were like, shut up the fuck up
21:48
Speaker 1: until she leaves, right Like, she was not in on
21:52
Speaker 1: it until after the stilling.
21:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, less of being betrayed and more of just being used.
21:58
Speaker 2: But yeah, let down, uh for sure.
22:02
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's one of the reasons why
22:04
Speaker 1: She's like, you know what, No, I'm not gonna I'm
22:05
Speaker 1: not on this like save the world at any cost thing, right.
22:09
Speaker 1: I will fight for the last battle, but I will
22:12
Speaker 1: do it for life, not at any cost.
22:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it feels like she really did not have
22:19
Speaker 2: her own internal compass and she just adopted the blues
22:22
Speaker 2: because that's what like a good overachiever does. And then
22:26
Speaker 2: once she had to face like actual mortality and existential crisis,
22:30
Speaker 2: she was like, hmm, maybe overachieving's not what I want.
22:33
Speaker 2: Maybe enjoying my life and my body and hashtag yolo
22:40
Speaker 2: and we can have fun along the way. It's important
22:42
Speaker 2: to have joy as we fight for the end of
22:44
Speaker 2: the world, Like the Greens maybe are a more well
22:47
Speaker 2: rounded approach to life.
22:49
Speaker 1: And then I love the comparison where GWayne walks in
22:52
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, but you know, at least she's
22:53
Speaker 1: not beaten and odd how a novice to be instructed
22:57
Speaker 1: could be beaten but a prisoner to be interrogated not.
23:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a wild double standard. And I do
23:05
Speaker 2: for the most part, I I am annoyed when Brandon
23:06
Speaker 2: Sanderson mixings on the nose, but I do feel like
23:09
Speaker 2: this was a time that it was appropriate for Leona
23:11
Speaker 2: to just spell it out, like, look at this hypocrisy
23:15
Speaker 2: that the sisters are holding themselves to.
23:17
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the fact that tear gas can
23:19
Speaker 1: be used to disperse civilian crowds, but not as a
23:23
Speaker 1: weapon of war.
23:24
Speaker 2: Because then it's a Yeah, I mean, especially during the
23:28
Speaker 2: twenty twenty Portland uprisings, like the whole this is a
23:33
Speaker 2: war crime if you just labeled the parties differently, But
23:39
Speaker 2: it's fine. Yeah, when it's within a city civilians, this
23:44
Speaker 2: seems this seems a little incorrect somehow.
23:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if they were the military and we were
23:50
Speaker 1: enemy combatants, it's a war crime, then it's work on.
23:53
Speaker 1: But we're civilians being at a police state, so it's not.
23:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, almost, Like hypocrisy is one of the most
24:00
Speaker 2: common human things ever, So I just.
24:07
Speaker 1: I thought that was a very good analogy to what
24:10
Speaker 1: she's talking about here. It's just this, it feels like,
24:13
Speaker 1: if you're doing it for their own good, you can
24:15
Speaker 1: actually do a lot more damage than someone you're literally
24:17
Speaker 1: fighting against.
24:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a concept I've been hearing about and
24:22
Speaker 2: thinking about a lot lately, is who has the right
24:25
Speaker 2: to do violence and to who who has a monopoly
24:29
Speaker 2: on violence and who is forbidden access to violence? Like
24:33
Speaker 2: these are themes that have become more relevant lately in
24:37
Speaker 2: terms of certain recent events, but also like it's been
24:41
Speaker 2: something I've been turning over and listening to podcasts about
24:43
Speaker 2: for the last several years of just like, I don't
24:46
Speaker 2: want the state to have a monopoly on violence. That's bad. Actually,
24:53
Speaker 2: h Like that framing was like interesting, and it's been
24:59
Speaker 2: a very you full lens to bring to questions of
25:02
Speaker 2: who has control and who is on top and why
25:05
Speaker 2: conflicts happen. Is like, it's just an interesting question to pose,
25:09
Speaker 2: you know, who should have access to violence and who
25:13
Speaker 2: is allowed to do violence on people. It's perplexing, and
25:17
Speaker 2: I mean mostly like it's an argument for why we
25:20
Speaker 2: should not be putting military grade gear in the hands
25:23
Speaker 2: of local police forces. I mean that's really the initial
25:27
Speaker 2: context I came across this concept in. But it has
25:29
Speaker 2: been a very illuminating question in a lot of contexts.
25:34
Speaker 2: And the Isidai are exemplary at thinking that they should
25:39
Speaker 2: be allowed to do things that they are also banning
25:42
Speaker 2: other people from doing, Like that is the isidie approach.
25:45
Speaker 2: To the whole world. We can pull the strings on war,
25:47
Speaker 2: but you can't have a war. We can have magic
25:51
Speaker 2: nuke powers, but you can't have these turangrial No matter
25:55
Speaker 2: how long it's been in your family, it's our property inherently,
25:58
Speaker 2: like the isidae are so oh.
26:00
Speaker 1: That Yeah, the fact that all the angryol are their property.
26:04
Speaker 1: All weapons belong to us, and they have.
26:06
Speaker 2: A right to advise all nations and they deserve to
26:09
Speaker 2: be considered an impartial agent, but no other nation can
26:13
Speaker 2: be considered impartial. Right, There's just all this layers of like,
26:16
Speaker 2: why are you special? Why do you get to have
26:18
Speaker 2: that power?
26:19
Speaker 1: Because they have the power, m yeah, and power begets power.
26:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. So looking at the way they treat their own
26:27
Speaker 2: people points to maybe some of the cognitive dissonance that
26:31
Speaker 2: exists in their higher purpose.
26:33
Speaker 1: So they're standing there talking, Agwayne puts her hands on
26:35
Speaker 1: the bars and they freaking melt like wax.
26:39
Speaker 2: They've turned into like bars of wax.
26:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, bars of melty wax. Yeah, And the whole room
26:45
Speaker 1: essentially has temporarily And I think this is sort of
26:49
Speaker 1: how people get sucked down into the stone and then
26:51
Speaker 1: let like it refreezes a moment later and they're like
26:54
Speaker 1: halfway in and stuff like that. Obviously, I think that
26:56
Speaker 1: would have killed Dan.
26:57
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's like the area of
27:00
Speaker 2: her cell becomes this like inward vortex. It almost reminds
27:03
Speaker 2: me of how we saw like the trollic traps in
27:07
Speaker 2: the Ways in Book one, where they're like Cottwayne. It
27:12
Speaker 2: feels like that sort of got copy pastaed over into
27:15
Speaker 2: the real world onto her cell and the Yeah, the
27:19
Speaker 2: only reason she survives is that she is yanked out
27:21
Speaker 2: before she can become one with the transmuting stone wax.
27:28
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's a really cool bubble of evil,
27:30
Speaker 1: and I think it's happening at the same time the AJA.
27:34
Speaker 2: A great trade. It's the sort of weird, necessary balance
27:38
Speaker 2: to the sheer scale of what's happening upstairs.
27:42
Speaker 1: It's like, if you have these two things swapping, there's
27:43
Speaker 1: sort of the pivot point happened to be Leanne cell
27:47
Speaker 1: and like it got all twisted and muddy.
27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was totally how I read it as well. Also,
27:51
Speaker 2: it distracts some of the people who were most capable
27:54
Speaker 2: of having intelligent thoughts about it, Right, Agwayne can't be involved, Right,
27:59
Speaker 2: She's Leanna, Right, it's happening at the moment that a
28:02
Speaker 2: grain is very involved in a thing, so it's scary.
28:05
Speaker 2: It's definitely simultaneous. And yeah, what I I mean, this
28:08
Speaker 2: is the first bubble of evil that Brandon got to write, right,
28:11
Speaker 2: And this was one of those moments where I was like, oh,
28:14
Speaker 2: we're in good hands. He just wrote a slap and
28:17
Speaker 2: bubble of evil like that was good. And bubbles of
28:20
Speaker 2: evil are such a uniquely wheel of time thing that
28:23
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay Sanderson, all right, all right, I
28:26
Speaker 2: see you, this is okay, And it's so creepy it's
28:29
Speaker 2: like nightmare fuel. Also, like the ground under your feet melting,
28:34
Speaker 2: that's one of the most existentially scary things.
28:37
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, while you're in a cell, basically anything where
28:41
Speaker 1: the environment's trying to kill you when you're trapped in
28:43
Speaker 1: a cell. That's one of the reasons why like jail
28:45
Speaker 1: is so terrifying to me, is like what happens if
28:48
Speaker 1: there's a tsunami coming and nobody gets you out of
28:50
Speaker 1: the cell, right, Like I'm also just like, I'm sorry.
28:54
Speaker 1: I've seen too many animal studies where for some reason,
28:59
Speaker 1: the animals getting it and left in cages and I
29:02
Speaker 1: have to come in and fix the problem or I
29:05
Speaker 1: find them that way, and it's horrific. Yeah, and humans
29:09
Speaker 1: are animals, we are, and so like, yeah, jail to
29:12
Speaker 1: me is I mean, jail's crazy. Just the concept of
29:15
Speaker 1: it just blows me out of the water. Like we
29:17
Speaker 1: have to be responsible for these people because if we're not,
29:21
Speaker 1: like they will die in the cell. We created a
29:25
Speaker 1: situation where someone is in no way one dependent on
29:30
Speaker 1: other people for survival.
29:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's I'm very anti jail myself. There's
29:35
Speaker 2: an amazing story I forget from where I'll have to
29:38
Speaker 2: put in the show notes about a guy who was
29:41
Speaker 2: on an island where there was a volcanic eruption and
29:45
Speaker 2: he was the only survivor because he was in a
29:48
Speaker 2: jail cell that was like down in the bedrock, and
29:51
Speaker 2: he like suffered horrific burns and nearly suffocated, but did
29:54
Speaker 2: in fact survive where no one else did because he
29:59
Speaker 2: was in a little tiny hole in the rock because jail.
30:03
Speaker 2: I forget where that was. I'll put a link in
30:04
Speaker 2: the show notes. But yeah, generally, like I'm anti putting
30:10
Speaker 2: people in boxes where they could just be neglected to death.
30:13
Speaker 2: That's it's I don't think that's a good system, Like,
30:17
Speaker 2: we don't need to be doing that at nearly the
30:19
Speaker 2: rate we are, which fuck.
30:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, well in America, Yeah, I think we can all
30:24
Speaker 1: all agree with the rate jail is super high in
30:26
Speaker 1: America over country, and it shouldn't be that way.
30:30
Speaker 2: Absolutely bonkers.
30:31
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say phrases like we should all agree, but
30:34
Speaker 1: it's one of those times.
30:35
Speaker 2: I really do think we got America.
30:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus Christ, we like having.
30:40
Speaker 2: The highest fucking proportion of incarcerated people in the world
30:43
Speaker 2: per capita, Like, obviously we love that, otherwise we wouldn't
30:47
Speaker 2: be doing it. Yeah.
30:50
Speaker 1: Anyway, m the dark One is getting stronger the last
30:54
Speaker 1: battle approaches. What is your Amberlyn doing about it?
31:00
Speaker 2: I love Agwayne both galvanizing the Yellows into helping and
31:04
Speaker 2: then immediately turning the moment into yet another podium for
31:08
Speaker 2: her to say, Alida sucks. Can we please do something
31:11
Speaker 2: about Alida?
31:12
Speaker 1: But these two Yellows are never previously and never again mentioned.
31:15
Speaker 1: They are only in this chapter.
31:16
Speaker 2: So them, they exist.
31:19
Speaker 1: Good for them, they were here, they existed, they helped,
31:22
Speaker 1: they saved the two. They were the guards. Why they're
31:25
Speaker 1: two yellows. Not. I guess we're still in the adjas
31:29
Speaker 1: not trusting each other, so the only one ajas is going
31:31
Speaker 1: to guard Leanne.
31:32
Speaker 2: Right, they don't even have an interesting conversation like the
31:35
Speaker 2: pair of whites that we saw in that other scene
31:37
Speaker 2: where they were talking about math and stuff. The yellows
31:39
Speaker 2: don't even have an interesting conversation for us to eavesdrop on.
31:42
Speaker 1: So Agwayne. After that moment, leaves heads back to the
31:47
Speaker 1: Novice quarters in quotes, which end up being the Brown
31:51
Speaker 1: AJAC because they've swapped during that bubble of evil.
31:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, she quietly and tiredly and without really paying attention
31:59
Speaker 2: just sort of wandered up to her room and then
32:01
Speaker 2: is like, huh, I must be really tired because I
32:04
Speaker 2: just wandered to the totally wrong part of the tower.
32:07
Speaker 2: And then a few minutes later, the entire tower is
32:10
Speaker 2: running around like a chicken with his head cut off
32:12
Speaker 2: because the biggest corridor swap yet seen in the whole
32:16
Speaker 2: series just.
32:17
Speaker 1: Happened, right, And this one gets brought up again and
32:20
Speaker 1: again because like it's permanent, and the Browns have to
32:22
Speaker 1: switch where they are because it's like, fuck, I'm not
32:24
Speaker 1: gonna move into a Novice quarters. They suck.
32:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm convinced that the entire reason this happens
32:31
Speaker 2: is because of Tuon's decision to attack the tower and
32:35
Speaker 2: Agwayne needing to high enough up on the tower to
32:38
Speaker 2: affect the fight back that she does, because that's really, really,
32:42
Speaker 2: really important for reunifying the Tower. So I don't think
32:46
Speaker 2: that this would have happened the way it did at
32:48
Speaker 2: all if Tuwan hadn't decided she was gonna throw Rockin
32:51
Speaker 2: at the tower.
32:52
Speaker 1: So female Severein at work. Yeah, it's a Gwayn Teverein
32:55
Speaker 1: by proxy again, right, Like the dragon needed a Gwayn
32:58
Speaker 1: to win, so therefore.
33:00
Speaker 2: Right the Tower had to be reunified. The best way
33:02
Speaker 2: to unify it behind Aguade was to remove Elida and
33:05
Speaker 2: make her clearly and demonstrably the most valuable channeler this
33:08
Speaker 2: side of the dragon Wall. Shawn Chan attack was a
33:12
Speaker 2: great way to make that happen. And it also means
33:15
Speaker 2: there's more powerful channelers in the last battle because they've
33:19
Speaker 2: been turned into magic nukes by the shan Chan, who
33:21
Speaker 2: are more effective weapons wielders. I don't know about all that,
33:25
Speaker 2: but I do like that the Tower demanded this fight.
33:28
Speaker 1: I like that Yeah, I would have loved the scene
33:31
Speaker 1: when the shan Chan come battling that someone recognized like
33:33
Speaker 1: Alida among the Dwani. Like that would have been badass.
33:38
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you weren't doing much good for the for
33:41
Speaker 2: the last battle in the tower, so we had to
33:43
Speaker 2: move you to a more powerful position as a magic
33:46
Speaker 2: nuke slave. Maybe it don't suck so much next time, Alida.
33:51
Speaker 1: Okay, but how does a bubble of evil? I guess
33:53
Speaker 1: some hal tevieren can even work on bubbles of evil
33:56
Speaker 1: and make them work for them.
33:57
Speaker 2: Well, I figure I to go back to the chapter logo.
34:01
Speaker 2: It's the shredding web, right, it's the web falling apart.
34:06
Speaker 2: So if you're gonna have more and more and more
34:08
Speaker 2: bubbles of evil, and you're gonna have a greater and
34:11
Speaker 2: greater influence of Taveran on the pattern as we get
34:14
Speaker 2: closer to the final reckoning, you're gonna inevitably have some overlap. Right,
34:17
Speaker 2: just statistically, some of those bubbles of evil are going
34:20
Speaker 2: to follow along fault lines and force lines that the
34:23
Speaker 2: Taveran is making just because everything's collapsing down, everything's falling apart.
34:28
Speaker 2: They can't. It wouldn't be chaotic to never work in
34:32
Speaker 2: favor for the tavern, right, that wouldn't be properly chaotic.
34:35
Speaker 1: And I feel like we see that storm until I
34:37
Speaker 1: run Reod form right, right, and that's the one that
34:39
Speaker 1: destroys till I run Riod. And we talk about the
34:41
Speaker 1: symbolism of that, right, like.
34:43
Speaker 2: Does it destroy till I run Riod or just make
34:45
Speaker 2: it really messy?
34:47
Speaker 1: I mean to the point where it's almost unusable, like
34:50
Speaker 1: Paren uses all his force of will to survive there
34:53
Speaker 1: for a brief period of time towards the end of
34:55
Speaker 1: the last battle. Like, I guess it's not technically destroyed,
34:58
Speaker 1: but it's basically unsurvival.
35:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I assumed it was going to settle
35:02
Speaker 2: down again.
35:02
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yea, yeah, totally sorry. I shouldn't say destroyed,
35:05
Speaker 1: but certainly in chaos.
35:07
Speaker 2: Rendered completely unnavigable for sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like everything's
35:13
Speaker 2: collapsing in on itself, so like you're gonna get more
35:15
Speaker 2: fun synchronicities along the way, just as a bonus.
35:18
Speaker 1: Well, in the way that Teleroon Riod is sort of
35:21
Speaker 1: the third right constant. Yeah, right, there's definitely something I
35:25
Speaker 1: want to talk about as it starts to fall apart,
35:27
Speaker 1: and like what that storm means, right, because.
35:29
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean if the other two things are
35:31
Speaker 2: falling apart, then the third thing has to fall apart too.
35:33
Speaker 2: That's how triangles work.
35:36
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not sure that. Would you say the Dark
35:38
Speaker 1: One is falling apart at this point, I'd say more
35:40
Speaker 1: he's just exerting influence on the other two.
35:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess not. He's spreading out, not really falling apart,
35:47
Speaker 2: but it's becoming diffused into the real world in a
35:51
Speaker 2: way that he has not been.
35:53
Speaker 1: And I would say, like the influence that's creating the
35:56
Speaker 1: bubbles of evil and it's causing the real world to
35:58
Speaker 1: fall apart, is also causing storm and teleroun reality.
36:01
Speaker 2: It might also be making it easier for Teverein to
36:04
Speaker 2: happen if the world is getting softer around the edges.
36:09
Speaker 1: Well, we see some of that with Rand, right, because
36:12
Speaker 1: once he has his epiphany, his goodness becomes the balance
36:16
Speaker 1: to the Dark One's evil, and so he gets to
36:19
Speaker 1: be pure good because his teleroanriodness is balance. He is balance, right,
36:24
Speaker 1: That's what he is. And when the world is normal
36:26
Speaker 1: and not being influenced by the Dark One, he creates
36:28
Speaker 1: as many good events. Those random events balance out the
36:31
Speaker 1: evil events. But the stronger the Dark One gets, the
36:35
Speaker 1: Dragon is in a lot of ways. That's why he's
36:38
Speaker 1: the anti dark One. That's why he's the creator's avatar.
36:41
Speaker 1: He gets to be the anti dark one as the
36:45
Speaker 1: Dark One gains power, so does Rand to do good things.
36:48
Speaker 1: That's how he balances out the pattern.
36:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And between those two poles, in that increasing amplitude,
36:55
Speaker 2: there's more room for other people to have convenient things,
36:59
Speaker 2: to vere anything. Plot forwarding things.
37:02
Speaker 1: Happen, poor writing things happen.
37:06
Speaker 2: So much room, so much room, so.
37:09
Speaker 1: Much, so much room for plot holes. I can just
37:11
Speaker 1: slip right one right in there, just oh yeah, why
37:15
Speaker 1: oh you know what, we need her to be up high,
37:16
Speaker 1: so we're gonna swap those.
37:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so many plot holes. Slapping the roof of
37:26
Speaker 2: the book.
37:28
Speaker 1: Severe in. Yeah, so that's the all I have for that.
37:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh, there you go.
37:38
Speaker 1: Agwayne climbs to her bed for the end of the
37:41
Speaker 1: night after being spanked, visitingly In and.
37:45
Speaker 2: Then watching all the guys that I freak out. And
37:46
Speaker 2: I mean it's gonna be like hours before the Browns
37:49
Speaker 2: like settle down and decide what they're going to do
37:50
Speaker 2: for the night. Like, so, guys not getting a lot
37:53
Speaker 2: of sleep, but we're we're going to pivot over to
37:55
Speaker 2: the next chapter, chapter seven, whose symbol is the moon
38:12
Speaker 2: and stars for kats Katswain's hair ornaments, and the title
38:17
Speaker 2: is the Plan for Era Doomon Super subtle. Can't imagine
38:21
Speaker 2: what that has to do with anything that happens in
38:23
Speaker 2: the chapter. Not really related at all.
38:27
Speaker 1: There's no plan for a Doomon going on here now.
38:30
Speaker 2: I mean, in fairness, the plan is not really much
38:32
Speaker 2: of a plan. Technically, our criticism's not totally off base
38:36
Speaker 2: because it's not much of a plan.
38:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean eventually he does come up with a
38:39
Speaker 1: decent one for the ieale. This start at the coastline
38:42
Speaker 1: and work your way in and bring peace one bit
38:45
Speaker 1: at a time.
38:46
Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely I just kill everyone who disagrees
38:49
Speaker 2: with you until there is peace. Like that's essentially what
38:52
Speaker 2: the plan boils down to, is scare everyone into obedience. Yeah,
38:57
Speaker 2: because that's the democratically appropriate thing to do or whatever.
39:02
Speaker 2: Like Rand thinks about it later, like, why do I
39:04
Speaker 2: care so much about making sure the election is proper
39:06
Speaker 2: in Aeron demon. He gets really invested in the politics
39:10
Speaker 2: of putting this nation back together in a way that
39:12
Speaker 2: he has not with other nations, and it feels a
39:15
Speaker 2: little out of sink with how he's handled every other
39:18
Speaker 2: nation ever. But also it is the most decapitated nation
39:24
Speaker 2: of the nation that he has dealt with.
39:27
Speaker 1: Grendall has been messing with this nation for a while
39:29
Speaker 1: and she's been creating the chaos here and is in
39:34
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Every other country has fallen into
39:37
Speaker 1: his lap because of his severeness. He hasn't really done
39:40
Speaker 1: a lot except actively got and recruit the iel, right,
39:42
Speaker 1: that was his plan, although he's following the prophecies. But
39:46
Speaker 1: then he came back and like, yeah, it feels like
39:48
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, Kyriene fell into his lap because
39:50
Speaker 1: the shidow had taken it apart, you know, a GWayne
39:53
Speaker 1: he had in that or he was just killing forsaken right,
39:56
Speaker 1: and they in that left a power gap where they
39:58
Speaker 1: were like, oh, yeah, there's nobody left because you killed
40:01
Speaker 1: the man in charge who happened to be evil, so
40:03
Speaker 1: now you're in charge. But there was but Grendel didn't
40:07
Speaker 1: take charge of Eric Doomon as queen and manipulate. She
40:12
Speaker 1: just set up the castle and said, I'm going to
40:14
Speaker 1: take this fucker down from the inside, piece by piece
40:16
Speaker 1: by piece. And by the time Rand has gotten there,
40:19
Speaker 1: so much of it has been dismantled. There's no infrastructure
40:22
Speaker 1: left to build upon, and so we have to rebuild
40:24
Speaker 1: the entire country from scratch, rather than just replacing the
40:28
Speaker 1: head piece with someone who's loyal to him and then
40:32
Speaker 1: using the same mechanics of government to keep governing the country. So,
40:37
Speaker 1: you know, Grendel's more in a lot of ways, a
40:39
Speaker 1: lot more effective than these you know, general men who
40:42
Speaker 1: stepped up and taking a leadership role at the country's head,
40:46
Speaker 1: even though they're trying to set up to have a
40:49
Speaker 1: country loyal to the dark one basically. But because they
40:53
Speaker 1: have this structure in place, it can be replaced.
40:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting that the ego of the other
41:00
Speaker 2: forsaken have to have them right up near the top
41:03
Speaker 2: such that yeah, you yoink them out. Everything's fine. Grandall's
41:09
Speaker 2: lack of ego, lack of needing to be seen doing
41:11
Speaker 2: what she's doing. She's like, I'll just take everyone pretty
41:15
Speaker 2: kill everyone else, and then string it together with fishing
41:19
Speaker 2: line and bubblegum and wait for rand the bulldog or
41:22
Speaker 2: the bull rather to just come crashing through and smash everything.
41:26
Speaker 2: And then yet every little city state goes back to
41:28
Speaker 2: being his own fiefdom because there's no actual struggle. It's
41:31
Speaker 2: so much more effective, that's so much more diabolical and
41:36
Speaker 2: long lasting. And even if you take her out, her
41:39
Speaker 2: work still lasts. Her work cannot be undone because she
41:45
Speaker 2: got rid of everyone who was doing the Wow. I'd
41:49
Speaker 2: never thought about this sheer scale of how much better
41:51
Speaker 2: she is than the other forsaken, at least at this Like.
41:55
Speaker 1: Goddamn, it's like Grendel and Delandrette are really the only
41:58
Speaker 1: two effective forsaken. And I don't count the demondrate at
42:01
Speaker 1: the last battle, because that's clearly, you know, the real
42:04
Speaker 1: Demondrade is VanIn right, stealing the horn of Lear. The
42:08
Speaker 1: other one's clearly a man in a mask of mirrors.
42:11
Speaker 2: Yeah obviously obviously, yeah.
42:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously No. But like the demondrate up to this
42:18
Speaker 1: point has been proven as be scene is very effective.
42:21
Speaker 1: I think that's why they like the question of where
42:23
Speaker 1: was he was so widely debated before these books came out,
42:28
Speaker 1: Like what is Brandon going to do with him, because,
42:30
Speaker 1: like he's been foreshadowed, this incredibly incredibly effective forsaken on
42:36
Speaker 1: par with Samarog and Grendall and demandrad Right. Messa on
42:43
Speaker 1: A in a lot of ways was also a very
42:45
Speaker 1: effective but just you know, she broke the tower and
42:48
Speaker 1: corrupted it very effectively. Agwayne happened to bring her down,
42:51
Speaker 1: but before that point, she did what she was supposed
42:54
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah.
42:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean and Landfair had great potential. I mean,
42:58
Speaker 2: seducing Jesus defa was a strategy that could have worked.
43:03
Speaker 2: If she had been less too dimensional about it, it
43:06
Speaker 2: might have actually worked.
43:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was just in it for herself, not for
43:09
Speaker 1: the Dark One. She wanted to studuce him because she
43:11
Speaker 1: wanted him, not because she wanted to convert him to
43:13
Speaker 1: the Dark One.
43:13
Speaker 2: So there was fatal flaw in that plan.
43:16
Speaker 1: Moraine was also the fatal flaw in that plan. Get
43:19
Speaker 1: it put on.
43:21
Speaker 2: You're not wrong. Speaking of Moraine, this is a chapter
43:24
Speaker 2: all about Ninive and kad Swain, who are the two
43:28
Speaker 2: people sort of vying for that happy equilibrium space that
43:33
Speaker 2: Moraine briefly inhabited. Neither of them really achieve it, but
43:37
Speaker 2: they're both trying very hard. We start with Ninive and
43:42
Speaker 2: Diegion going over some of the weaves for the Isidi test,
43:46
Speaker 2: and we spend a lot of time thinking about Diegion's
43:50
Speaker 2: backstory as well as the nature of the Isidai hierarchy
43:53
Speaker 2: and how it is stupid. The lovely meditation on would
43:59
Speaker 2: you really want the pain of your lost heeled away?
44:02
Speaker 2: Like just magically cut out? Like what the hell's wrong
44:05
Speaker 2: with you? You need to honor pain and let it
44:07
Speaker 2: be and exist in it because that is part of
44:10
Speaker 2: losing someone, which I like. I like Digion's take on that.
44:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should more in the people you lose in
44:16
Speaker 1: your life, and just because it hurts doesn't mean you
44:19
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it.
44:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get where I need is coming from. This
44:23
Speaker 2: is magically enhanced. Surely there's a way to magically unenhance it.
44:27
Speaker 2: I get her desire mechanically, But like, you should be
44:31
Speaker 2: working that out in a lab with the yellows that
44:34
Speaker 2: you shouldn't be trying to like take away this woman's
44:36
Speaker 2: specific experience of pain, Like that's not a question for
44:40
Speaker 2: Diagianta solve. That's a question for you and other eyes
44:42
Speaker 2: that I to workshop in a space in the tower
44:45
Speaker 2: after the last battle's.
44:46
Speaker 1: Over and Doggion is killed by Samarrog or sorry shut
44:49
Speaker 1: Ahran during Samarg's Breakfron.
44:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
44:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, so foreshadowing her ending is when Rand the last.
44:58
Speaker 2: That could be done. Yeah, she's one of the casualties
45:01
Speaker 2: to that. You know, El's a pen Fell. We don't
45:03
Speaker 2: mind losing because she was a dark friend. But Diegion
45:07
Speaker 2: her only crime was just being at the wrong place
45:09
Speaker 2: at the wrong time.
45:10
Speaker 1: She was holding the shield. Yeah, yeah, but.
45:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's very nice to Ninive and very helpful to her,
45:15
Speaker 2: and Ninive looks at their relative power levels and goes,
45:18
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be subservient to you. Hmm. I don't want
45:21
Speaker 2: to go down that road anymore. I like you being
45:23
Speaker 2: subservient to me.
45:25
Speaker 3: I just don't think it's right that I'm on top,
45:27
Speaker 3: you know, is the constant problem of being on top
45:31
Speaker 3: of the privileged pile, right You're like, I recognize this
45:34
Speaker 3: is wrong, but also I don't know how to comfortably
45:38
Speaker 3: make myself uncomfortable.
45:40
Speaker 1: So mm hmm. But you know, in a lot of ways,
45:42
Speaker 1: Ninive she kind of states, She's like, I'm like, I
45:45
Speaker 1: have a tall person's problem. Everyone's short to me, so
45:47
Speaker 1: I don't really notice their difference in heights. So she
45:49
Speaker 1: treats Daggion the same way she treats everybody else, which
45:52
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways is a step up and
45:54
Speaker 1: Dagion's perspective, right like, because she's like, oh, you treat
45:59
Speaker 1: me the same way you treat the godsway and try
46:01
Speaker 1: the same way you treat everybody else, which is you're
46:04
Speaker 1: rude and brusque and abusive. And you know, I feel
46:07
Speaker 1: like I know people like that at work, where I'm like,
46:09
Speaker 1: if you weren't mean to me, i'd be a little offended,
46:11
Speaker 1: let's be honest, right, Like that means you don't think
46:14
Speaker 1: about me enough to be a little mean, right, Yeah.
46:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is definitely that thing. When you're so far
46:21
Speaker 2: on top that you don't even need to prove it
46:24
Speaker 2: to anyone anymore, then you can afford to be magnanimous
46:27
Speaker 2: and not constantly rank everyone relative to where you are,
46:31
Speaker 2: because if you're in the middle and you're trying to
46:33
Speaker 2: climb up, right, you're gonna constantly be doing the like
46:35
Speaker 2: a crab in a pot thing where you're like pulling
46:37
Speaker 2: the other crabs down in an effort to get out.
46:39
Speaker 2: But like if you're already out, you can afford to
46:42
Speaker 2: just be equal to everyone who's still in the pot.
46:45
Speaker 1: Well, and in a lot of ways they're both. They
46:48
Speaker 1: have the same perspective where everybody's either above you or
46:50
Speaker 1: everybody's blow you, so you don't really think about rank
46:53
Speaker 1: that much.
46:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is true. They both have a sort of
46:56
Speaker 2: equal opposite.
47:02
Speaker 1: But nineven acknowledging that the rank system isn't right, I
47:06
Speaker 1: think is a long way towards going towards winning Daigyon
47:11
Speaker 1: over right.
47:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Diigion is not a problem person. She's fine.
47:17
Speaker 2: She's willing to experience new things, and I mean she
47:20
Speaker 2: had an Ashaman warder. She's clearly open minded to seeing
47:24
Speaker 2: about what the world really is, and she's genuinely helping
47:27
Speaker 2: Niive here. I mean Ninevea is able to do the
47:30
Speaker 2: test basically at the drop of a hat for Agwayne's
47:33
Speaker 2: political convenience, because of die Gion being willing to put
47:37
Speaker 2: in this work.
47:38
Speaker 1: No, and it's just I guess I get frustrated that
47:41
Speaker 1: we get all this foreshadowing that the power structure in
47:44
Speaker 1: the White Tower is going to change in some way. Right,
47:47
Speaker 1: It's like nineve saying this isn't right and talking about
47:50
Speaker 1: the os and like nothing changes other than they retire
47:54
Speaker 1: into the kin. And I would have loved to see,
47:57
Speaker 1: like we even just get Codswayin elected. It's like, why
47:58
Speaker 1: are they electing this boomer again? And come on, like
48:00
Speaker 1: they're just going to get get somebody new fresh blood.
48:05
Speaker 1: I mean, and I know they've been having all these
48:06
Speaker 1: young Amberlins. And again that's why I don't think Igwayn
48:09
Speaker 1: should have died, because she could have then been a
48:11
Speaker 1: great peace time Emberlyn.
48:14
Speaker 2: I think should have a nightmare piece time Amberlin, but
48:16
Speaker 2: it would have been something different than the same old
48:20
Speaker 2: that's for sure.
48:21
Speaker 1: I think it would have involved her getting humbled, I
48:23
Speaker 1: think a little bit. But I think she would have
48:25
Speaker 1: been a great peace time Amberlin. I think she would
48:27
Speaker 1: have just had to approach it from a very different
48:29
Speaker 1: because like it's one thing when it's like and they
48:31
Speaker 1: say this repeatedly, like even Leanne would have been a
48:34
Speaker 1: decent ambulance seat normally, but this is the last battle.
48:38
Speaker 1: We need something different. And I think after the last battle,
48:42
Speaker 1: you also need someone who can adapt to change quickly
48:44
Speaker 1: because a lot of things are going to be changing
48:46
Speaker 1: very quickly in the world. The power dynamic is totally shifted.
48:51
Speaker 1: The technology is changing drastically. The one power is now
48:56
Speaker 1: being used by two genders, and you have the most
48:58
Speaker 1: powerful creations again being created by the combination of those
49:01
Speaker 1: two genders rather than the White Tower standing alone. Like
49:04
Speaker 1: it's going to change everything about how they can accomplish
49:07
Speaker 1: things and the kind of power they can wield. And
49:10
Speaker 1: codswayin is just I don't know, not a good pick
49:12
Speaker 1: for that, But you know, I think Agwayne could have
49:15
Speaker 1: adapted very quickly to those things because she's young and adaptable.
49:18
Speaker 2: Better than kat Swain for sure.
49:23
Speaker 1: And we of course get a storm is coming. We
49:25
Speaker 1: get that a lot with n nive right, And I
49:27
Speaker 1: think that storm, I don't know if that storm is
49:29
Speaker 1: the Teleron Riod storm. I think there might be a
49:31
Speaker 1: little bit of like best storm she senses is the
49:33
Speaker 1: one in tell Iron Riod.
49:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm nodding.
49:36
Speaker 1: Which is the dark one coming? Which is the last battle?
49:39
Speaker 2: Are there other storms you think she might be sensing?
49:42
Speaker 1: Not really?
49:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the best I can think is like maybe
49:45
Speaker 2: she's sensing the impending cataclose and brewing in Rand. But yeah,
49:50
Speaker 2: the way that she's just sort of perpetually on edge
49:52
Speaker 2: about a storm. It does make me think it's got
49:54
Speaker 2: to be the dream manifestation of the impending last battle.
50:00
Speaker 1: Hmm. Well, and so many times I've said that the
50:02
Speaker 1: pivotal moment of the Last Battle is Rand on the mountain, right,
50:05
Speaker 1: because that's the moment when he could destroy the world
50:08
Speaker 1: and when he decides not to. At that point, the
50:10
Speaker 1: Dark One is just trying to restart for the next cycle.
50:14
Speaker 2: So then does Nineve keep talking about the storm coming
50:20
Speaker 2: after that?
50:21
Speaker 1: After that? That's something we should pay attention to because
50:24
Speaker 1: I don't remember.
50:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I feel like if it is the storm
50:27
Speaker 2: in Rand, then Ninive would have a pretty serious about face,
50:31
Speaker 2: not about face, but just like a double take like whoa,
50:34
Speaker 2: the storm has passed or something. But I don't think
50:36
Speaker 2: she does.
50:37
Speaker 1: I think it's the because there's the break in the storm, right,
50:40
Speaker 1: there's that like the clouds have broken, but the storm isn't.
50:44
Speaker 2: Over and the clouse part. Everywhere he goes, right, you
50:47
Speaker 2: get a weird, eerie circle of clear sky over Caitlin
50:50
Speaker 2: when he visits, et cetera, et cetera. Right, So yeah,
50:53
Speaker 2: I mean Dragon one with the land, Land one with
50:56
Speaker 2: the Dragon. The land includes the atmosphere, even though it
50:59
Speaker 2: is not literally the land clearly the it. You know,
51:03
Speaker 2: it's like how I said, I can't write lies anymore
51:05
Speaker 2: than they can speak them. Right, the climate is one
51:07
Speaker 2: with the dragon, and the dragon is one with the
51:09
Speaker 2: climate or the weather anyway. I guess the dark one
51:12
Speaker 2: was really manipulating the climate, but the weather is very
51:15
Speaker 2: adaptable to rand And.
51:17
Speaker 1: We get that time stamp of ten days or a
51:19
Speaker 1: single week. They like, I like how he says it's
51:22
Speaker 1: been a single week in over ten days, so like
51:26
Speaker 1: that really emphasizing that, like a week is ten days
51:29
Speaker 1: here in rand Land, and he's sticking with it apparently.
51:32
Speaker 2: You know, as long as there's internal consistency, I got
51:34
Speaker 2: no complaints.
51:36
Speaker 1: It's just it was established so late in the series,
51:39
Speaker 1: like book seven, they're like, oh yeah, by the way,
51:41
Speaker 1: a week is ten days. You're like, wait, what, like
51:43
Speaker 1: always like, I guess you never really specified, so okay,
51:50
Speaker 1: but why why I don't get that?
51:52
Speaker 2: No, not at all.
51:53
Speaker 1: I mean I guess maybe he sat down and made
51:55
Speaker 1: up a calendar and that's that's how the weeks work
51:57
Speaker 1: ended up working out. But I whatever, Yeah, ten days,
52:02
Speaker 1: you say, Doggieon said, are you certain and I swear
52:04
Speaker 1: to God, that's Brandon saying, are you certain that a
52:06
Speaker 1: week is supposed to be ten days? Because that doesn't
52:08
Speaker 1: seem right to me, but it's written in canon, So
52:11
Speaker 1: are you certain a week is ten days? Like that
52:13
Speaker 1: really does feel the meta to me the way he's
52:16
Speaker 1: has Doagyon asked that question.
52:18
Speaker 2: And it's also like him again looking at the audience,
52:20
Speaker 2: saying I know, I know, I don't want it either.
52:24
Speaker 2: That's what I understand. This makes no sense, but that's
52:29
Speaker 2: what we're doing. Na Neive is pacing around because she's
52:35
Speaker 2: annoyed at the lessons, and she happens to look out
52:37
Speaker 2: the window and see Kat Swayin and yoinks herself out
52:42
Speaker 2: of the lessons so that she can go get all
52:45
Speaker 2: up in Kad Swayin's business because she assumes that Kad
52:47
Speaker 2: Swayn is going to be getting all up in Ram's business.
52:50
Speaker 2: And we get a nice panning shot of all the
52:52
Speaker 2: recently arrived I Yeeld and other characters that are going
52:56
Speaker 2: to be streaming into this tent and into this big
52:58
Speaker 2: old conversation at the plan for Aero Demon and Kat
53:02
Speaker 2: Swain is actually one of the last arrivals to the tent.
53:04
Speaker 2: Nine gets there early. It's a whole like running bit
53:07
Speaker 2: in Nineve's head. But the point is a lot of
53:10
Speaker 2: the main cast are in a single tent talking about
53:13
Speaker 2: Aeron demon.
53:14
Speaker 1: Hmm. And I just noticed that there's a moment where
53:17
Speaker 1: Ninive basically arrives too quickly because she notices what's going on,
53:21
Speaker 1: and so Rand is sent on messengers but he doesn't
53:24
Speaker 1: expect her to have been messaged yet, and so he
53:27
Speaker 1: gets suspicious and has this moment of insanity basically is like,
53:30
Speaker 1: is she an impostor? Is she somehow has spying on me?
53:34
Speaker 1: Does she has somehow information? And it's ninni right. So
53:38
Speaker 1: the fact that Rand is distrusting Ninive in these moments
53:40
Speaker 1: is showing you just how insane.
53:42
Speaker 2: That he is, well and loose. Thearren doesn't trust Ninave
53:45
Speaker 2: the way Rand trusts Ninave right, Like she can see
53:49
Speaker 2: him kind of shifting between like the stranger and the
53:52
Speaker 2: boy she knew, and she doesn't quite grock it the
53:56
Speaker 2: way we do. But she also notices for the first
53:58
Speaker 2: time that he's really got warder vibes. Maybe not the
54:01
Speaker 2: first time, but no.
54:02
Speaker 1: This isn't the first time. But she's really yeah.
54:04
Speaker 2: But it's another instance of her going. He really seems
54:08
Speaker 2: like a warder. Where why why is he so wartery?
54:11
Speaker 2: And we know it's because he's got multiple water bonds.
54:14
Speaker 2: He's very ward much warter also his dad figure being land.
54:19
Speaker 1: Well, I think at this point he's only got the one.
54:22
Speaker 2: He's got two.
54:22
Speaker 1: What was the second, the triple bond? And I don't
54:25
Speaker 1: think that's happened.
54:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, has he is married? Okay, Elaine is pregnant?
54:32
Speaker 1: Yes, because he can write sorry, yeah, he can forget sorry, goddamn,
54:37
Speaker 1: that's truck rereads, rereads, rereads. Yeah, of course, of course
54:42
Speaker 1: he's married. Yeah, of course.
54:44
Speaker 2: Funny. Yeah, And I do think that that only counts
54:46
Speaker 2: as two water bonds. I think that, like a great
54:49
Speaker 2: Elaine blended them in the three into one. So I
54:53
Speaker 2: don't think he has four warter bonds. I think he's
54:55
Speaker 2: just got two water bonds and one of them carries
54:58
Speaker 2: three people on the other end. That's the way that
55:03
Speaker 2: Elaine describes the weave she lays on.
55:04
Speaker 1: Him, right right. I don't know though, but he feels
55:08
Speaker 1: them separately, like you can tell the difference between the
55:10
Speaker 1: three of them pretty easily.
55:11
Speaker 2: Vote in chat is he a double order or a
55:13
Speaker 2: quadruple order.
55:14
Speaker 1: I think it's a quadruple order.
55:16
Speaker 2: I mean he certainly does enough badass, unsurvivable things and
55:19
Speaker 2: still survives to the end that like sure.
55:23
Speaker 1: Sure, quadruple order plus mind cross body cross with Moridan
55:29
Speaker 1: plus LTT in his head.
55:32
Speaker 2: It's too much.
55:34
Speaker 1: Plus all the people that his people he's bonded with
55:37
Speaker 1: are also bonded with, right, because Elane's bonded with Brigida,
55:40
Speaker 1: so she's also experiencing some of his head stuff. Not
55:44
Speaker 1: really well. But if Elane is influenced by his mood
55:48
Speaker 1: and then Brigida's influenced by that, like there is this
55:51
Speaker 1: sort of chain reaction where it can be just like
55:54
Speaker 1: not direct, but certainly secondary influence.
55:56
Speaker 2: If they were ever all in the same city at
55:58
Speaker 2: the same time, yeah, I think at the distance that
56:01
Speaker 2: they exist, that never practically happens. But yeah, if they
56:04
Speaker 2: were all.
56:05
Speaker 1: Because you have that feedback emotional loop between Elaine and Burgita,
56:08
Speaker 1: which basically makes them have the same emotions.
56:11
Speaker 2: If they were at the same house party getting different
56:13
Speaker 2: pieces of gossip, that could get messy fast.
56:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's why Brigida gets drunk with men, right.
56:19
Speaker 2: Brigida has a lot of reasons for getting drunk, one
56:22
Speaker 2: of them being she just likes being drunk.
56:24
Speaker 1: Yes, well she's good at it. I like you. There's
56:27
Speaker 1: a moment of reflection with Ninive where she talks about
56:29
Speaker 1: I should have never let Moraine take him from the
56:32
Speaker 1: Two Rivers, and then she's like, that's foolish, that's stupid,
56:36
Speaker 1: Like why am I thinking that? And I do like
56:38
Speaker 1: that moment of growth here that Brandon gives her, yes
56:41
Speaker 1: because like, finally get rid of that like anger at
56:44
Speaker 1: Moraine for stealing them away, because she did save their.
56:47
Speaker 2: Lives, right. She has a moment of resisting gripping her
56:50
Speaker 2: braid and tugging it. She has a moment of catching
56:53
Speaker 2: herself in her hypocrisy about her anger to Moraine. Yeah,
56:56
Speaker 2: you actually seeing internal growth and it is left mm hmm.
57:02
Speaker 1: There's this quote where Rand's like, if I go, I
57:04
Speaker 1: shouldn't be getting married because I'm going into danger and
57:06
Speaker 1: nineys like, of course you'd be getting married. You're going
57:08
Speaker 1: into danger, Like yeah, it's a it's a fun level.
57:13
Speaker 1: That is.
57:13
Speaker 2: One thing that hasn't changed from book one is that
57:17
Speaker 2: different way that the men and women from the Two
57:19
Speaker 2: rivers look at sacrifice and marriage, and.
57:23
Speaker 1: I do think, like it's really important. Rand, I feel like,
57:27
Speaker 1: is saying, well, if we're not married, then we're not
57:31
Speaker 1: going to love each other and so the death won't hurt.
57:33
Speaker 1: And like that's dumb of course, like someone you yeah.
57:37
Speaker 2: You're sleeping together, she is worried about you. A legal
57:41
Speaker 2: piece of paperwork is not going to change the depth
57:45
Speaker 2: of her heartbreak when you die, like that ship has sailed, Yeah,
57:50
Speaker 2: which is why I need is correct that like better
57:52
Speaker 2: to complete tying this bow than to leave it half
57:56
Speaker 2: baked forever, Like come on, come on, if if it's important,
58:00
Speaker 2: then finish it.
58:02
Speaker 1: I feel like that's ay. A lot of people got
58:03
Speaker 1: married before they went off to like war, Like, I
58:05
Speaker 1: feel like that's it.
58:06
Speaker 4: Happens a lot, happens a lot, a lot.
58:08
Speaker 2: It's totally a thing. Rand is being a dingbat. There's
58:12
Speaker 2: this interesting moment of Ninive thinking about kad Swain where
58:15
Speaker 2: kad Swain weaves a ward against eavesdropping and Rand doesn't object,
58:20
Speaker 2: and Ninive gets offended on Rand's behalf. He's letting kad
58:23
Speaker 2: Sway get awayn with too much, like it reminds me
58:26
Speaker 2: of to her to Ninive. It's reminding her of what
58:30
Speaker 2: Moraine was trying to do to Rand, like to get
58:33
Speaker 2: to like have control over him, and like she's just
58:36
Speaker 2: seeing such a different thing from the outside than how
58:39
Speaker 2: either Rand or kad Swain are experiencing their conflict on
58:43
Speaker 2: the inside. Ninive is comparing it to the Moraine experience,
58:47
Speaker 2: and it's it's so not that, so not that.
58:50
Speaker 1: I just think it's funny that she's like, he should
58:52
Speaker 1: do what I say, but he should stand up against
58:55
Speaker 1: cod Swain, and that she says again that hypocrisy with Ninive.
58:58
Speaker 1: So I think I think Brandon is actually writing doing
59:00
Speaker 1: good job writing that into her character.
59:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is an eye sidie. Truly. That hypocrisy was
59:07
Speaker 2: there already, but it is also deeply emphasized by her
59:09
Speaker 2: being an isidie.
59:11
Speaker 1: It's so funny how Brandon, I feel like, gets it
59:13
Speaker 1: with Ninive and completely misses it with Matt.
59:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they are such similar characters, you'd think that
59:18
Speaker 2: if you could get in the head of one, you
59:19
Speaker 2: could get into the head of the other. But alas,
59:22
Speaker 2: somehow that is not true in.
59:24
Speaker 1: This case, eag somehow.
59:28
Speaker 2: So oh, I think we'll jump back into the meeting
59:30
Speaker 2: with Ninive, going, oh, Avianda is here. That's kind of
59:35
Speaker 2: a fun moment to start the meeting out with. She
59:38
Speaker 2: notices Avianda hanging in the back, acting like an apprentice and.
59:42
Speaker 4: De picking a part a square of cloth, threat by
59:46
Speaker 4: threat question mark. I love Ninive looking at Avianda going,
59:50
Speaker 4: what is the pointless? Because she's looking at Avianda like
59:54
Speaker 4: expecting her to be a wise one, almost right, Like
59:56
Speaker 4: she's surprised to see Avianda still serving tea. She's perplexed
1:00:00
Speaker 4: at seeing Avianda picking a part a piece of fabric,
1:00:03
Speaker 4: Like there's just this subconscious assumption on Ninieve's part that
1:00:06
Speaker 4: Avianda is going to be a powerful, independent person, and
1:00:10
Speaker 4: she's like.
1:00:11
Speaker 2: Huh, wonder why she's still just doing whatever. It's like, yeah, Alvianda,
1:00:16
Speaker 2: get the memo. Even Nieve is subconsciously surprised at what
1:00:19
Speaker 2: you're doing.
1:00:20
Speaker 1: Come on, because you're not an apprentice anymore.
1:00:24
Speaker 2: Nive knows it.
1:00:25
Speaker 1: You're rubbing shoulders with the most powerful people in the world.
1:00:27
Speaker 1: You're control You're literally like having daily discussions with the
1:00:31
Speaker 1: Dragon Reborn and helping dictate his policy. Yeah, you're not
1:00:37
Speaker 1: an apprentice, You're not an intern anymore.
1:00:39
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, exactly.
1:00:43
Speaker 1: I really feel she's like oldest one, oldest intern a
1:00:46
Speaker 1: war like at the office party, like she's like running
1:00:50
Speaker 1: the place, and then they still call her the intern.
1:00:54
Speaker 2: So yeah, Rand asked for a report from RUARC about
1:00:57
Speaker 2: what's what.
1:00:57
Speaker 1: What's what, and basically Ran saying, we have to have
1:01:00
Speaker 1: peace in Aerodomont and why haven't you done that yet?
1:01:03
Speaker 1: And works like cause it be fun Like there's a
1:01:06
Speaker 1: lot wrong in aerodomon I can't just give you a
1:01:11
Speaker 1: country that's been broken to pieces in a few weeks,
1:01:14
Speaker 1: like I've barely there's no one in charge anywhere. There's
1:01:18
Speaker 1: a bunch of city states running a monk. I'd have
1:01:20
Speaker 1: to go over conquer each one individually, get them to
1:01:23
Speaker 1: swear to you individually. It's a harder task is taking
1:01:25
Speaker 1: over the whole rest of the continent because they're so
1:01:28
Speaker 1: disorganized country. But yes, yeah, no, no continent. I'm saying
1:01:32
Speaker 1: it's taking over that. Taking over that country is as
1:01:36
Speaker 1: hard as oh.
1:01:37
Speaker 2: Oh gotcha, yeah, exactly exactly. It's shattered like a plate.
1:01:41
Speaker 2: It's a nation of children. It's beyond impossible to manage.
1:01:46
Speaker 2: Because as we were saying before, like grand I'll shoot
1:01:49
Speaker 2: up that rope, Like, like, imagine that you go to like,
1:01:52
Speaker 2: you know, put on a garment or like use a
1:01:55
Speaker 2: rope that's just kind of been left in a corner
1:01:57
Speaker 2: and a mouse has just chewed it. Right, that's what
1:01:59
Speaker 2: grand y All did to the power structure. You go
1:02:02
Speaker 2: to yank on that rope and it just shatters into
1:02:04
Speaker 2: a thousand pieces, like that is what has happened. And
1:02:07
Speaker 2: Work's like, I can't do that in two days, bro,
1:02:11
Speaker 2: Rand's like that seems like a very unreasonable tone to
1:02:14
Speaker 2: take with me, which is ridiculous. And then Kat Swayn
1:02:17
Speaker 2: actually throws water on the fire effectively for once in
1:02:20
Speaker 2: her entire career of handling Rand, she actually helps and
1:02:23
Speaker 2: is like, Rand, could you maybe think about the balance
1:02:26
Speaker 2: sheet you have with the iel and listen to what
1:02:28
Speaker 2: the man has to say with your thinking brain and
1:02:31
Speaker 2: not just your angry brain.
1:02:33
Speaker 1: And then he sits down and comes up with a
1:02:35
Speaker 1: pretty decent strategy.
1:02:36
Speaker 2: Right.
1:02:36
Speaker 1: He makes the assumption that an Islam has been kidnapped
1:02:39
Speaker 1: by Grendal and is of no use to him anymore,
1:02:42
Speaker 1: actually kidnapped by Alida whatever, doesn't matter, same conclusion.
1:02:46
Speaker 2: He makes the best decision with the information he has right.
1:02:50
Speaker 1: Which is that Anslam is unreachable at this point and
1:02:52
Speaker 1: will be for pretty much the foreseeable future.
1:02:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's off the board entirely.
1:02:57
Speaker 1: So if the problem is there's no power structure in place,
1:03:00
Speaker 1: and that's why the ideal can't control anybody, let's rebuild
1:03:04
Speaker 1: the power structure. So go find out the remnants that
1:03:07
Speaker 1: you can, which are is this council of merchants, and
1:03:13
Speaker 1: find any of them, you can put them back in
1:03:15
Speaker 1: the capitol together, because right now there's only one with
1:03:17
Speaker 1: no control. Have them elect a new leader and then
1:03:20
Speaker 1: say hey, everybody, that's your rightfully elected leader, obey him
1:03:25
Speaker 1: and do the laws. And city states shut up and listen.
1:03:29
Speaker 1: And he's going to, of course wear obedience to the
1:03:31
Speaker 1: dragon reborn. But that's how you rebuild the power structure
1:03:33
Speaker 1: in Erdomot. And he's basically saying start. Once we do that,
1:03:37
Speaker 1: we're going to start from the coasts and move our
1:03:39
Speaker 1: way in and as long as you can feed the
1:03:41
Speaker 1: people and give them laws, they should obey you. The problem,
1:03:45
Speaker 1: as we later see, is he can't feed them right right.
1:03:48
Speaker 2: He has a very solid plan, which is that if
1:03:50
Speaker 2: you provide safety and food food security, people will start
1:03:57
Speaker 2: running towards you and forming an orderly queue and not
1:04:00
Speaker 2: being a problem.
1:04:01
Speaker 1: He's very right, which we see Parent doing. Right, that's
1:04:05
Speaker 1: what parent. That's why he has all these refugees and
1:04:07
Speaker 1: these people flocking to him, Right, That's how he builds
1:04:09
Speaker 1: up this army of like I mean, hundreds of thousands
1:04:11
Speaker 1: of people. Right. Is he's got resources.
1:04:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's truism with people that if they're fed, they
1:04:19
Speaker 2: will manage everything else. But people can organize themselves as
1:04:23
Speaker 2: long as there's something to share. If you have nothing,
1:04:26
Speaker 2: which is what Era demon ends up facing, having nothing,
1:04:28
Speaker 2: then you've got a problem. But as long as you're
1:04:30
Speaker 2: providing anything at all, people can become a much more
1:04:34
Speaker 2: self organizing rabble essentially. And it's very LTT. I feel
1:04:39
Speaker 2: like this is definitely one of those times when LTT
1:04:41
Speaker 2: is speaking, you know, nineties, like wow, he's almost a
1:04:43
Speaker 2: leader and that's very sensible. Da. It's like that's a
1:04:46
Speaker 2: bit of a Lane influencing Rand, but it's also a
1:04:49
Speaker 2: bit of LTT knowing how nation management works, and like
1:04:54
Speaker 2: that pairs well with a Lane's tutelage.
1:04:57
Speaker 1: I feel like your point is like, yes, that we're
1:05:00
Speaker 1: on a macro scale, but also on a micro scale,
1:05:01
Speaker 1: because like, as long as you provide a human body
1:05:04
Speaker 1: with like a few basic nutrients and just enough vitamins
1:05:08
Speaker 1: that it can't make itself, it can basically survive for
1:05:11
Speaker 1: a long time on very very little. And the same
1:05:14
Speaker 1: is true for a large group of people, right, Like
1:05:17
Speaker 1: you survive to provide resources where they're needed at the
1:05:21
Speaker 1: most effective and yeah, yeah, communism.
1:05:24
Speaker 2: And also, you know, it's the easiest way to make
1:05:28
Speaker 2: a positive change in the world. Feed people. Like it's really, really,
1:05:33
Speaker 2: really hard to go wrong if you're feeding people, right,
1:05:37
Speaker 2: This is advice that I have heard, I have thought
1:05:40
Speaker 2: about it, like, yeah, I.
1:05:41
Speaker 1: Feel like it's one of the reasons that when I
1:05:42
Speaker 1: had a employment crisis, I went into being a cook,
1:05:47
Speaker 1: right because I was like, what's the one thing that
1:05:48
Speaker 1: I know, like I can feel good about doing on
1:05:51
Speaker 1: a day to day basis that someone will also hire
1:05:54
Speaker 1: me at you know, is like I can feed people,
1:05:58
Speaker 1: and like, at least I know that if I make
1:06:00
Speaker 1: this burger good, the person who eats that burger is
1:06:02
Speaker 1: going to be happy, which is some satisfaction I had
1:06:05
Speaker 1: not gotten out of the work I'd been doing my
1:06:08
Speaker 1: whole life up to that point, because I've been creating
1:06:10
Speaker 1: massive spreadsheets for corporations, right, and I just had no
1:06:14
Speaker 1: payoff or no you know, I didn't know no one
1:06:17
Speaker 1: was there, or I did a bunch of programming for
1:06:19
Speaker 1: the VA that got thrown out. At one point. You know,
1:06:21
Speaker 1: it was like, there is no payoff, No one's enjoying
1:06:24
Speaker 1: the fruits of my labor. I'm working just for the
1:06:26
Speaker 1: sake of creating work to get paid, right.
1:06:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:06:31
Speaker 1: But when I was cooking, every time I sat down
1:06:33
Speaker 1: to make something, I knew somebody was going to enjoy that.
1:06:36
Speaker 1: And the better I made it, the more they're going
1:06:37
Speaker 1: to enjoy it. And that payoff was such a huge
1:06:41
Speaker 1: mental relief totally.
1:06:45
Speaker 2: So you know, if you're dealing with a crisis, either
1:06:48
Speaker 2: a personal crisis of direction or like a national crisis
1:06:52
Speaker 2: of no power structure remains, apply food.
1:06:56
Speaker 1: Feed people.
1:06:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, feed people. It'll make it better. Whatever the problem is,
1:07:00
Speaker 2: it will be better if you are fed.
1:07:02
Speaker 1: Also true in relationships, Yeah, because I learned as I
1:07:07
Speaker 1: was trying to move last.
1:07:08
Speaker 2: Night, apply food, and then the problem gets significantly better.
1:07:12
Speaker 1: It helps, it helps, Yes, it helps all the problems.
1:07:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But you know, as we will
1:07:18
Speaker 2: see in these books. If you get people together expecting
1:07:22
Speaker 2: food and then there is no food, you've just made
1:07:24
Speaker 2: the problem significantly more concentrated.
1:07:27
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, then at that point there's not only the
1:07:30
Speaker 1: lack of food, there's the betrayal.
1:07:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, all right, so we talk about Iteralda, which
1:07:38
Speaker 2: everyone in the tent except random knows basically all the
1:07:42
Speaker 2: well no, all the old men who have been fighting
1:07:44
Speaker 2: for a long time, like, oh yeah, that's Heralda. He's
1:07:47
Speaker 2: good at our shit, he's good at the war thing.
1:07:51
Speaker 2: We're gonna have to deal with him because he's he's
1:07:54
Speaker 2: a wild card, right, He's not Sean chan Or. He
1:07:58
Speaker 2: is Domani, but he's not part of the Domani power
1:08:00
Speaker 2: structure Rand is trying to put together. He's a rogue
1:08:02
Speaker 2: agent doing his own thing in.
1:08:05
Speaker 1: The same way that Daffron Bashir kind of broke off
1:08:08
Speaker 1: from the border lands and became an independent army who
1:08:11
Speaker 1: decided to follow Rand.
1:08:14
Speaker 2: It's pretty different though, because he's still fighting for Eradmon,
1:08:17
Speaker 2: whereas Bashir is fighting for Rand.
1:08:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Bashir fought for Rand because Rand promised to
1:08:23
Speaker 1: free his homeland, right, so.
1:08:26
Speaker 2: Free his homeland from what Celde is not in prisons
1:08:30
Speaker 2: to anything, just went full of dragon sworn.
1:08:36
Speaker 1: Yeah he really did.
1:08:37
Speaker 2: I Giralda went to Terrabon and no, he didn't go
1:08:41
Speaker 2: to Teavan. He went to the border anyway. I Tiralda
1:08:45
Speaker 2: is not answering to Anyonealda's answering to himself.
1:08:50
Speaker 1: So why did by sheher follow Rand? I forget the
1:08:53
Speaker 1: plot that led him to do that, because it was
1:08:56
Speaker 1: wasn't he following mazer Tamia? And then and like you
1:09:00
Speaker 1: can't have him? And he's like, okay, we'll ill follow
1:09:02
Speaker 1: you instead, and it's like, yeah.
1:09:03
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, it's it's some tevere and plus borderlander honor shit.
1:09:09
Speaker 1: You know.
1:09:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh, a borderlander is going to be
1:09:12
Speaker 2: a person who you can like. He's not like a
1:09:14
Speaker 2: zealot dragon sworn. He's just a logical borderlander, right.
1:09:18
Speaker 1: And then I feel like he got in so deep
1:09:20
Speaker 1: that he was like, oh, there's really no way to
1:09:22
Speaker 1: separate myself from the dragon ryborn anymore. I've just been
1:09:24
Speaker 1: following him for too long without orders from home.
1:09:27
Speaker 2: Well, and I think you can also see that Rand
1:09:30
Speaker 2: needs him, so clearly the pattern wants him to be
1:09:33
Speaker 2: with Rand, so you know, no point fighting it.
1:09:36
Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, Bashir's been Rand's most
1:09:38
Speaker 1: loyal follower besides the ael Right and the Iel. You know,
1:09:42
Speaker 1: even they have their own internal politics and stuff, right.
1:09:45
Speaker 2: Basher represents a much smaller group of people with a
1:09:47
Speaker 2: lot less internal politics. He's got a small army of cavalry,
1:09:50
Speaker 2: whereas the Ayel are a nation.
1:09:52
Speaker 1: But they are the core of Rand's army.
1:09:54
Speaker 2: I would say his saalde and cavalry are really integral
1:09:58
Speaker 2: to a lot of his success. And that's Kasbasher was
1:10:00
Speaker 2: just like, i am facing the literal dragon reborn. Yeah,
1:10:05
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the thing the prophecy says, and have
1:10:07
Speaker 2: all my bonds be broken and just do the oh
1:10:10
Speaker 2: while claiming that the queen will support him and all
1:10:12
Speaker 2: this stuff. But yeah, so it's Helda has the respect
1:10:15
Speaker 2: of all the generals in the tent. They're like, yeah,
1:10:19
Speaker 2: Toroalda fought well twenty years ago, like we fought against him,
1:10:21
Speaker 2: and he did a good job. So they're impressed with him,
1:10:25
Speaker 2: and they're impressed with the campaign he's been waging against
1:10:27
Speaker 2: the shan Chan. But he is a complicating factor to
1:10:30
Speaker 2: bringing peace to Aradomon, right, because he's.
1:10:33
Speaker 1: A rogue agent kind of fighting off in the wilderness,
1:10:35
Speaker 1: and they're like, uh, what are we gonna do about him?
1:10:37
Speaker 1: And Rand's like, I'll go deal with him personally. He's
1:10:39
Speaker 1: gonna and gateway in and use my tevereness and talk
1:10:42
Speaker 1: to him, which.
1:10:44
Speaker 2: Works, Yeah, pretty much, it does, because.
1:10:47
Speaker 1: It knows he's losing. As we learned from the earlier
1:10:50
Speaker 1: part of the chapter, right, the early chapter like Itralda's
1:10:53
Speaker 1: fighting a losing battle and Ran basically says, you can
1:10:56
Speaker 1: either continue to fight this losing battle to you die,
1:10:58
Speaker 1: or come help me with the bigger problem, which is
1:11:00
Speaker 1: the last battle.
1:11:02
Speaker 2: Right, and then he does a bunch of like shuffling
1:11:04
Speaker 2: of armies to make everyone happy and it's a whole thing.
1:11:07
Speaker 2: But yeah, he he just tavereans A Tooralda into his plans.
1:11:12
Speaker 2: He says, I'm Taveran enough and we're close enough to
1:11:14
Speaker 2: the end of the series that I'm just going to
1:11:16
Speaker 2: go deal with him. It'll be fine. And then that
1:11:19
Speaker 2: is what happens, and.
1:11:20
Speaker 1: It is and uh, that's it for that chapter. Early.
1:11:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, So do you want to give us a readout
1:11:25
Speaker 2: because that's the end of the episode.
1:11:27
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm actually going to do a fairly long readout,
1:11:29
Speaker 1: because I feel like this is a good, just summary
1:11:32
Speaker 1: of the plan here at the end. Once you take
1:11:34
Speaker 1: the council of merchants, Ran continued, apparently unconcerned about their worries,
1:11:38
Speaker 1: move the ideal into the cities where those merchants ruled.
1:11:41
Speaker 1: Make sure those cities don't degenerate. Restore order as you
1:11:43
Speaker 1: did in band our Evan. From there began hunting bandits
1:11:46
Speaker 1: and enforcing the law. Supplies will soon arrive from the
1:11:49
Speaker 1: sea folk. Take the cities on the coast first, then
1:11:51
Speaker 1: move inland. Within a month's time, the demani should be
1:11:54
Speaker 1: flowing toward you rather than running away from you. Offer
1:11:57
Speaker 1: them safety and food, and order will take care of itself.
1:12:01
Speaker 1: A surprisingly rational plan. Rand really did have a clever mind.
1:12:04
Speaker 1: For a man, There was a lot good in him,
1:12:07
Speaker 1: perhaps the very soul of a leader. If he could
1:12:09
Speaker 1: keep his temper in check. Ruart continued to rub his chin.
1:12:12
Speaker 1: It would help if we had some of your Saldean's dafren, Bashir.
1:12:15
Speaker 1: Wetlanders do not like following Ayeel. If they can pretend
1:12:18
Speaker 1: the Wetlanders are in charge, then they will be more
1:12:20
Speaker 1: likely to come to us. Bashir laughed, we'll also make
1:12:23
Speaker 1: nice targets. As soon as we seize a few members
1:12:25
Speaker 1: of the Merchant's council, the rest will send assassins after
1:12:28
Speaker 1: us for certain Rorke laughed as if he thought that
1:12:31
Speaker 1: a grand joke. The Ale sense of humor was its
1:12:34
Speaker 1: own sort of oddity. We will keep you alive, Dafren Basher.
1:12:38
Speaker 1: If we do not, we will stuff you and set
1:12:40
Speaker 1: you on that horse of yours, and you will make
1:12:41
Speaker 1: a grand quiver for their arrows. By Yale loud laughly
1:12:45
Speaker 1: at this, and the maidens by the door began another
1:12:47
Speaker 1: round of hand talk. Bashir chuckled, though he didn't seem
1:12:50
Speaker 1: to understand the humor either. You sure this is what
1:12:52
Speaker 1: you wanted to do, he asked Rand. Rand nodded. Divide
1:12:56
Speaker 1: some of your forces, send them with the ideal groups
1:12:58
Speaker 1: as Rurke decides. And what if Itdraltacher asked, looking back
1:13:02
Speaker 1: at the map, There won't be peace for long once
1:13:05
Speaker 1: he realizes we've invaded his homeland. Ran tap the map
1:13:08
Speaker 1: softly for a moment. I will deal with him personally.
1:13:12
Speaker 1: He finally said, Oh my god, So okay, I have
1:13:58
Speaker 1: to do a slight tangent right, okay, Red Wind of Truth,
1:14:02
Speaker 1: Brandon Sanderson's fifth book of Stormline. Archive read it again
1:14:07
Speaker 1: because I missed a few things first time through, went
1:14:09
Speaker 1: ahead and listened to it for a third time. Right,
1:14:12
Speaker 1: So I've been through it about three times now. Fun book,
1:14:15
Speaker 1: but the more I listen to it, the more angry
1:14:17
Speaker 1: it makes me, because over and over and over again,
1:14:22
Speaker 1: the men who have done horrific things in the past
1:14:26
Speaker 1: get to be redeemed and be heroes, and over and
1:14:29
Speaker 1: over and over again, the women who are more clever
1:14:32
Speaker 1: and better people fail at their tasks. Oh and I
1:14:38
Speaker 1: just it was just I just noticed it over like
1:14:41
Speaker 1: I kind of noticed it on my first read through
1:14:42
Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, these women who I really
1:14:45
Speaker 1: like really didn't get to do much. Well, maybe I
1:14:49
Speaker 1: missed it. Let me get you know, doing a reread
1:14:52
Speaker 1: and again, I just know. And then and then and
1:14:56
Speaker 1: the character who is you know, not too many spoilers,
1:15:01
Speaker 1: but like a little bit of spoilers, the main character
1:15:04
Speaker 1: who's the main guy gets to be the hero you know,
1:15:08
Speaker 1: and gets redeemed and gets to do the sacrifice himself
1:15:13
Speaker 1: for the greater good thing, and then everybody's happy kind
1:15:18
Speaker 1: of right, Like I mean, it's not a happy ending,
1:15:22
Speaker 1: because it's midway through the point, right, there's definitely like
1:15:24
Speaker 1: a lot of cliff enders, and it's not like things
1:15:27
Speaker 1: aren't good, right, it's not the end of the story,
1:15:30
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's just I just I just got to
1:15:31
Speaker 1: this point where I was like, I'm not happy with
1:15:36
Speaker 1: the gender balance here. Like he's he talks about how
1:15:38
Speaker 1: much he cares about that kind of stuff, and especially
1:15:42
Speaker 1: in this book, you know, and and book yeah, and
1:15:44
Speaker 1: I really and I haven't liked his pacing because like
1:15:47
Speaker 1: books one and two were back to back, and I
1:15:49
Speaker 1: really and they felt very similar and they felt like
1:15:51
Speaker 1: the same kind of pacing and the same kind of book.
1:15:54
Speaker 1: And then book three, you know, felt a little different
1:15:58
Speaker 1: in terms of pacing, and then book four was like
1:16:01
Speaker 1: those year gap, and then book four was like a
1:16:03
Speaker 1: couple of days, and then there's another year gap, and
1:16:05
Speaker 1: then then book five is ten days, and so it
1:16:08
Speaker 1: feels like there's like these long gaps and we only
1:16:10
Speaker 1: get to peek in on these characters' lives, and so
1:16:12
Speaker 1: he's doing a lot of telling us what's been going
1:16:15
Speaker 1: on in the meantime rather than showing us the characters' lives.
1:16:18
Speaker 1: And I just I don't feel the writings as strong
1:16:20
Speaker 1: as it used to be.
1:16:21
Speaker 2: Maybe he got a little lost in his optimization process.
1:16:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, and that combined with I
1:16:28
Speaker 1: feel like underlying prejudice where he's just not giving the women,
1:16:31
Speaker 1: and maybe he plans more of that later, right, maybe
1:16:34
Speaker 1: the ones who are gonna come back and like fix
1:16:37
Speaker 1: things in the second arc. But you know, again, then
1:16:40
Speaker 1: it's like again, okay, just women cleaning up men's messes, right, Like,
1:16:44
Speaker 1: so it's just hard for me. I'm just time struggling.
1:16:47
Speaker 1: I'm struggling to Obviously, I enjoy the book. I listened
1:16:51
Speaker 1: to it three times in a row, right, Like, there's
1:16:53
Speaker 1: a lot to it. There's a lot going on. His
1:16:55
Speaker 1: world building is still fucking amazing. His characters are deep enough,
1:16:59
Speaker 1: in three dimensional enough that I care. But God, to me,
1:17:03
Speaker 1: it just it feels like he's not giving the characters.
1:17:07
Speaker 1: I want screen time or their due, right, Navann, Just
1:17:12
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a couple of examples if you don't
1:17:14
Speaker 1: want the win in truth spoilers, please, you know, like
1:17:19
Speaker 1: Navanni loook four, she's this incredible scientist discovers Antie's Stormlight,
1:17:24
Speaker 1: hero of the series of a sort of but like
1:17:28
Speaker 1: book five, when she should be using all of this
1:17:31
Speaker 1: scientific advancement that she has been discovering, she tags along
1:17:36
Speaker 1: with dalan Ar to play babysitter and then loses the
1:17:39
Speaker 1: kid that's her Trot's her plotline in book five. I'm like,
1:17:43
Speaker 1: ah Shalon, who's supposed to be this badass, like, you know,
1:17:48
Speaker 1: we get all this reveal about her backstory and then
1:17:50
Speaker 1: she like is tracking down the audio mischrom to, you know,
1:17:55
Speaker 1: and ends up like someone else steals her thunder and
1:17:58
Speaker 1: is the ones who end up freeing that person, right,
1:18:02
Speaker 1: and so she doesn't get to do it. It's the
1:18:03
Speaker 1: son and his lover you know, who are who's a
1:18:07
Speaker 1: different species and like, you know, great representation and fine,
1:18:11
Speaker 1: but again it's all men, you know, Like it goes
1:18:13
Speaker 1: back to the men get the glory moments in this book,
1:18:17
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it just stuck with me and
1:18:19
Speaker 1: it's bothering me.
1:18:20
Speaker 2: Well I'm sorry for you that it's bothering you, but
1:18:24
Speaker 2: I'm also like, I think it's really cool that it's
1:18:28
Speaker 2: bothering you, that you're noticing it and that it is
1:18:31
Speaker 2: sticking in your crawl, Like I think that is cool,
1:18:34
Speaker 2: Like it sucks on his part, but it's cool for you, you.
1:18:38
Speaker 1: Know, mm hmm, yeah, and like and I can't be like,
1:18:41
Speaker 1: oh well he never like obviously there's other books where
1:18:44
Speaker 1: they are much more centered with this book just felt
1:18:48
Speaker 1: back combined with the time gaps, right, Like, I don't
1:18:51
Speaker 1: like a big time gap, like you can do it once,
1:18:54
Speaker 1: you can do it once, right, But he's doing a
1:18:56
Speaker 1: big time gap between arc one and arc two, so
1:18:59
Speaker 1: it kind of sucks to also have big time gaps
1:19:01
Speaker 1: within arc one.
1:19:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Time jumps are definitely a tricky mechanism to
1:19:08
Speaker 2: use device to.
1:19:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because your characters have to be alive enough
1:19:13
Speaker 1: to change over that year, but stable enough that you're
1:19:17
Speaker 1: not going to go, what like, oh, now, this is
1:19:19
Speaker 1: a different character who like has changed and I didn't
1:19:21
Speaker 1: get to experience that change, So I feel like you're
1:19:24
Speaker 1: dropping a whole new person on top of me.
1:19:27
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I've noticed in TV a lot they'll put
1:19:31
Speaker 2: a time gap in and they'll change the hair and
1:19:33
Speaker 2: the clothes, but the character development will pick up exactly
1:19:38
Speaker 2: where it.
1:19:38
Speaker 1: Left off, right, Yeah. Yeah, they'll have.
1:19:40
Speaker 2: Had some more experiences, but their emotional growth arc is
1:19:44
Speaker 2: the same, and it's just like that you want me
1:19:46
Speaker 2: to believe that they went through like a year deployment
1:19:50
Speaker 2: or five years working on this project, and yet somehow
1:19:54
Speaker 2: their emotional growth is exactly where we left off. All
1:19:58
Speaker 2: those other stuff happened to their plot. Their hair changed,
1:20:00
Speaker 2: but like the way they interact with people is identical
1:20:04
Speaker 2: until the camera hits them again and then they can
1:20:06
Speaker 2: start having the emotional growth again. It's just like it's
1:20:09
Speaker 2: it's a really difficult device, I think.
1:20:12
Speaker 1: Right right, because you have to be somewhere between those
1:20:14
Speaker 1: two extremes of Oh, this character is a totally different character,
1:20:18
Speaker 1: and you've changed them so much that I don't recognize
1:20:19
Speaker 1: them and I don't care about them anymore. To wait,
1:20:22
Speaker 1: how are they exactly the same? They went through five
1:20:23
Speaker 1: years of character growth, they shouldn't be exactly the same.
1:20:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly.
1:20:28
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I fucking hated the time
1:20:31
Speaker 1: jump in the TV show when they cut out random parents.
1:20:37
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, that's a lot of their plot.
1:20:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's when so much of their personality develops
1:20:44
Speaker 1: into the people we care about, and like they just
1:20:46
Speaker 1: time skipped over it, and like, now these are the
1:20:48
Speaker 1: people you should know and love them.
1:20:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that definitely felt like it also got lost
1:20:53
Speaker 2: in its own optimization.
1:20:55
Speaker 1: Definitely.
1:20:56
Speaker 2: All right, so you want to return to the book
1:20:58
Speaker 2: from that very eve in sidebar totally relevant.
1:21:02
Speaker 1: Hopefully you'll cut that and put at the end, or
1:21:04
Speaker 1: just cut it all together.
1:21:04
Speaker 2: Probably just cut it.
1:21:08
Speaker 1: Well. I'm glad I don't listen to the finished episodes
1:21:11
Speaker 1: all the time, because sometimes I'm like, I cared about
1:21:14
Speaker 1: that tangent and it definitely got caught because it shouldn't
1:21:16
Speaker 1: be in there. But I would want it.
1:21:19
Speaker 2: I think probably mostly I leave in more than you
1:21:21
Speaker 2: would leave in.
1:21:22
Speaker 1: But oh that's fair. I do remember you leaving in
1:21:25
Speaker 1: stuff that I'll be like, oh I would. I would
1:21:26
Speaker 1: definitely got that because that was a terrible warrant.
1:21:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's the problem with having a fan do
1:21:31
Speaker 2: your editing. Thank you for listening to the Wheel of
1:21:39
Speaker 2: Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and review us on your
1:21:43
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1:21:46
Speaker 2: free episodes. Watt Spoilers is a production of Fox and
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Speaker 2: visit our website at Foxendravenmedia dot com.